I’m allergic to semi-counterclaims. Either you counterclaim or you don’t.
If we’re going to lynch Vezok because tom has an investigative role, then I want to know what role that is that isn’t a cop but can exist next to a tracker and 1-shot watcher, so we can make an informed decision without giving tom the chance to back out of it if Vezok does flip as claimed.
I'm here guys. I had stuff to do during the weekend.
So yeah interesting developments. I don't find the number of investigative roles too much, because it's balanced by having to use coins. tom should know that and his CC is weird and unexpected.
Then there's the people who jumped on my wagon with nothing to say. tom is tom and he at least knows his own role, but lnggr and Vaimes just jumped at the first opportunity with no comments. Is tom such a high townread for both of you or did you just smell a wagon to jump to it?
Vaimes here saying my silence was loud when I was away is laughable.
I haven't had time for the promised re-read, but from I read today my readslist hasn't changed much. There's too many people randomly jumping on wagons and riding that wave out.
Private Mod Note
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Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy. Check out the Shop Thread
Eco/rhand scum for only commenting on me, not vezok
Vezok scum because yeah the **** right 3 active, nightly investigatives in a 12er
Tom scum for going snowboarding instead of playing mafia.
V/la continues through the 7th. Ish.
Idk mammoth is a big mountain but my knee will only last so long
I really need to rethink some stuff because I've been wrong on my biggest scumread.
...just to be sure, who are you referring to here?
This is how I realise you haven't read a single post I've made yesterday. I've had multiple posts in which I either tried to vote, attack or simply mention cheesecake as my biggest scumread. I've also posted several times that I wasn't feeling shadow scum and was only voting for me him to not vote for highroller and for coins. There's also my clear on Riku, but I think it was also pretty obvious that he was never my biggest scumread.
Show of hands Cantrip: How many posts did you read from me yesterday?
*tries to raise 25 hands* Hey! I see what you did there! But seriously: I read every one of your posts, Vez. You posted that and I noted the ambiguity and went to make sure I knew who you were talking about, but the last mention you made of cheese was 8 Vez-posts previous (200+ game posts previous), and the last time you singled Cheese out was in 566 and 615 (when you were attacking him), so I wanted to make sure that you were talking about Cheese and not Shadow.
@Cantrip: post #1021: Why would you not simply post your thoughts in thread instead of messaging it to 1 person?
... *squints* *not sure if didn't read my long rant about why I used a burner phone or if simply ignored it*
Quote from Rhand »
Why did you wait until now to share that info on burner phone + action?
Specifically to ensure that if scum weren't thinking about it, they couldn't plan around it N1. Again, I felt pretty confidently that the average town mindset would be "hey, I should consider using this game mechanic", while scum would be more likely to have other actions to take and/or choose not to act.
Quote from Rhand »
And most importantly: did it not ever cross your mind that there might be a town way of passing coins in a pr somewhere that could activate powerful roles?
Um...given that LnG and I had a whole conversation about it early game...yeah, yeah, it certainly did. *I* am not a coin passer/manipulator/stealer/granter, and nothing came to light to make me think that I would be able to "save" my coin for that kind of purpose, so I used mine as I saw fit. Do you really think town with no indication of a reason to save their coins should save their coins? (And...why "most importantly", eh?)
Quote from Rhand »
The fact that you “used” the burner phone on your most plausible buddy does nothing for me.
If you are scum, I'll laugh that you called it a fact that I did that. But my use of a phone on Eco wasn't meant to do anything for you. I seriously considered reaching out to you with the intent of giving you a chance to figure me out if you were town and to give me a chance to assess how you took the action, but I don't think me sending half a reread's worth of notes is going to shake you out of your town!tunnel, and it certainly won't do much good if you're scum. I don't really care if you believe me on this particular claim or not; if you're town, you should be suspicious, and if you're scum, that's an easy motive check to fail.
Quote from Rhand »
And would you use a burner phone as scum? Sure, because you’ve got a whole explanation on why using it is the town thing to do.
...not to mention my note about how I'd love using it as scum? :eyeroll:
Quote from Rhand »
If you would flip town I would be less sure about Eco and probably pursue Highroller.
This was less detailed than I was hoping for, but ok.
Dont really think i should have to claim it but i will if necessary
You soft CC'ing Vez at this point in the game, especially with the trail of breadcrumbs you've been dropping that should have been more obvious to me, buys you a lot of leeway. I don't feel like your claim is necessary. If Vez flips town, you're going to practically be the de facto lynch, and you're an experienced enough player to know this, so...I don't think scum!you'd gladiate town!Vez like this.
Could it be that in this game, the mafia can only communicate using burner phones?
FTR, that sounds like a really rough restriction unless scum have access to a whole bank vault of coins. I'd be very surprised if they can only communicate via phones.
No, I mean, what is your *general* Night plan of action when you're town? Not last night specifically, but any given Night.
I mean, you can't generalize. Obviously it depends on whether or not I have a role with actions at night. If I'm a vanilla town or otherwise a role without night actions, I might prep my next post for the coming day, or I might just take the two or three days off and not even think about the game, come back fresh. I might do analysis, although I'll usually wait until the night kill results to do that, especially when it's early in the game and the results might change my perspective entirely.
Ok, so it varies. I'm pretty consistent, especially as VT, in rereading the previous Day/Game as time permits.
Quote from HR »
But I will happily take your snide little personal attack as further evidence that you're scum.
That was rude, and I apologize.
Thanks. I'm all for anything that reduces the snark overall.
Quote from HR »
The fact of the matter is I really don't give a crap about the burner phones. I don't see why I would use one, and I am clearly nowhere near as obsessed about their individual minutiae as you are. You're arguing this makes me mafia. So, follow this logic with me: my NOT communicating at night makes me mafia? Oh really?
I'm sure it seems like obsession because that's what our recent conversation has been about. But I'm really not obsessed; I just can't figure out a player who appears to be completely ignoring a game mechanic (even going out of his way to say "oh look I didn't use a phone guys!"). The only way it makes sense to me is for you to be scum trying to look innocent "because you didn't do anything at Night". Can you really not see the potential to catch scum (or pressure them into making a bad claim)? That last comment of yours there, btw, is a pretty classic strawman. I'm pointing out that the burner phones provide town with provable accountability for their Night actions, and you're responding with "Cantrip thinks players who DON'T communicate at Night are scum!" Please tell me that comment was tongue in cheek.
Quote from HR »
This is a bad argument, but I don't think it's a mafia tell, because I get that you think that this thing is really cool. Ok, it's cool that you're excited about it. Yeah, it's a nifty little toy to play with. But arguing that it has such amazing utility that it'd be mafia to not use it? No. It's not an inspection or a watching ability.
I don't know if you play D&D, but to draw an analogy, this is a Sending spell. Is Sending useful? It can be in certain situations. Is it the same level of useful as Fly, Fireball, Haste, or a healing spell? No, not even close.
OH MY FREAKING GOSH. How are you not seeing my point??? The point isn't the messaging! It's the accountability! Is it the most incredible thing ever and we should drop everything else and spend time figuring out who's going to send messages to whom? Of course not. But is it possibly something that scum didn't think through that we can use to expose their actions, lack of actions, and/or motivation/mindset? Absolutely.
That said, I'm not seeing any support on this, which means that either a majority of town was doing something else with their coins, or there are multiple town who feel the same as you do/made a similar choice and I just need to get over my disbelief. Plus we have a claim situation that needs to be resolved.
So yeah interesting developments. I don't find the number of investigative roles too much, because it's balanced by having to use coins. tom should know that and his CC is weird and unexpected.
Since you don't know whether Tom needs coins or not, and since we have confirmation of mechanics in the game that don't use coins, and since one of those mechanics is an information ability, making the argument that you feel like four town information roles are balanced (even if they're all 1-shot) feels a little laughable.
So here's where I'm at on Vez/Tom. I now think it's a lot more possible that scum!Vez got run up and fake-claimed cop D1 to draw the real cop out, then got cocky when no CC came and decided to sweeten the pot by making his 1-shot cost less than he originally claimed (in response to pressure/suspicion, none the less). I don't know what to think about his Riku target; it doesn't make a lot of sense from either alignment, imo. I think if Vez flps scum, I'm leaning toward it making Riku more likely to be scum. It's a risky play on their part if he is, but it still fits with Riku tracking HR (to see if his VT claim was to hide a PR), as well as making more sense from a setup standpoint. A town role with two abilities doesn't make as much sense as a scum one. But that's a bridge for another Day.
Tom's counterclaim, as LnG pointed out, would have to be pretty convoluted to come from scum. Not impossible, but...unlikely. I guess I said that about Vez's cop target claim, so I guess ymmv, but that's how I feel right now.
@Eco: Did my responses address your questions in 1036?
I'll post my N1 missive to Eco in the next post, spoilered so as not to be overwhelming, and slightly redacted because I'm not willing to share my secret or some of my observations.
I'm on board for lynching Vez as soon as we're ready to end the Day, but we've got plenty of time to talk other things out.
Here's what I sent to Eco N1. I've redacted a few elements, but the majority is there.
Greetings Eco,
[REDACTED] I think you're town, so I'm going to start off this little correspondence by divulging a secret: [REDACTED] [If I die N1,] this serves as my last will and testament; do with my reads what you will, bearing in mind that town reads by their very nature have to be taken with a grain of salt. If not, feel free to hold me accountable for anything I say here. [REDACTED]
So why are YOU getting this? I wanted this to go to one of my town reads (see list below). I know from past experience that Tom and I don't operate on similar wavelengths, so while he might gain some insight into me from this, I don't think it would be as effective as going elsewhere. I really want to send this to LnG, but there were several moments in the game that people postulated on him being a PR, so it's possible he'll be the NK and this doesn't do any good in dead hands. Of my three other higher town reads, I don't feel like Riku will do much, if anything, with the info, and I feel like Vez and I are already on the same page. I know you're a good analyst, and I'm pretty sure you're not scum. I also feel like you're most likely to do something with the info, so...
Here's my T-S list, which I will post in my first post of D2. If you have any questions about my reasons/rationale, feel free to grill me. I plan on starting off with mechanics: Grape confirmed that using a burner phone to send a message counts as an action (and no other action can be taken), so hopefully we can hold some people accountable for Night actions. (Grape didn't confirm whether the scum NK counts as an "action", though, so not definitive.)
Town
tomsloger
LnGrrrR
Ecophagy
Rumanshi (Riku)
vezokpiraka
Gentleman Johnny
Vaimes
Highroller
SleepyCheesecake
Rhand
Scum
I tried to reread, only got through page 9. Here are my results, with some redactions:
N1 Reread:
3, 4: Tom getting inb4 scummy is probably NAI?
10: Vaimes fishing for gender? Probably just small talk?
20: Could be scum theatre between Cheese and Tom.
34: Vaimes is prophetic! Grin
37/38: I like the result of this exchange between Cheese and Riku. +town to both.
44: Vaimes buddying with me?
50: Normally voting a non-player would be a red flag (I've seen it be true!), but with HR, I don't feel like the normal rules apply.
56: I still don't like this fishing from LnG...just feels really slimy. Frown
65: Why does Rhand just take Cheesecake's word that Cheese didn't read his flavor, so much so that he's willing to call Cheese town?
72: GJ could be leaping to support a townie while shading Shadow?
77: I didn't see the awkwardness in this post of LnG's that Shadow talked about at the time, and I don't see it now, either. Maybe Shadow's on to something, though?
85: If LnG's scum, not sure he calls Shadow and I town (when he knows we are) and scumreads GJ? Unless GJ's scum and he's getting in early bus credit?
88: If GJ's scum, would be odd for him to not pursue LnG here, not when two townies (Shadow and I) are pursuing LnG.
94: If Eco's scum, why would he shade me AND use language that mirrors my own?
98: A fair bit of self-deprecation from LnG, but I like his observation on GJ.
100: Not sure how much of GJ's "I'm on [Shadow's list], so I'm ok with [Shadow] for now" is joking, but I like his question to Eco.
101: Still don't understand how LnG thinks it's ok to fish "because they can just [expend resources and give me (LnG) information via the burner phone mechanic]". Not sure what to make of the "give me some credit" line...
103: Feels like a good post from Eco, trying to figure things out. A little odd that he asks about Cheese and not GJ?
136: Still feel like Eco's being measured and patient. If he's scum, he's playing it VERY well.
139: I didn't get GJ's wink wink the first time through, but now I'm pretty sure he's referring to Shadow maybe not actually being VT. +town to GJ.
142: A soft defense of me (or, at least, a dismissal of one of Rhand's assertions) doesn't feel like a scum!GJ thing to do.
145: Feels a little off that Vaimes pops in to townread Eco and snark GJ? If Eco or Vaimes flip scum, come back to this?
150: Can't tell if this is town!Eco hoping for a soulread from Tom or scum!Eco looking for Tom to incorrectly read me.
159: Rereading this post makes me want to vote LnG all over again. What actual mindset goes "hey, everyone! I have a coin to give to you! Let me know if you have a use for it! And if you want to keep it secret, just use a coin to tell me and I'll get you a coin!"?????
198: Can't tell if this is town!Tom correctly townreading me or scum!Tom pocketing me. Less likely to be scum given his playful attacks on Shadow and Eco in the same post?
205: Vaimes is trying to get inside Shadow's head. +town
211: If Vaimes is scum, there's some irony here given his push on me and Shadow in the previous post.
213: But this Vaimes post feels genuine. Sounds like he really has been considering those reasons against Shadow.
241: First solid post from Tom all game, but feels like there's a lot of conviction there.
253: LnG's read list is fair. Surprised no read on Rhand. Slight possibility if he knows GJ is scum that he's trying to link Shadow. Feels odd to have lurking HR at bottom of the list, but not too odd.
255: Feels really off for Vaimes to randomly ask for Rhand's zodiac sign.
256: Scum!Eco doesn't tell town!Me to calm down and take a step back/reassess. ++town
264: GJ pushing back against Vaimes' indication that if I were town, I'd be a wagon is +town for GJ.
267: But I'm not as fond of GJ's "no wolf reads, maybe Az?" comment. Although iirc there are going to be quite a few people posting similar thoughts... Did he have Eco listed in the town reads with me/LnG/Shadow (extra / at the end)? If so, feels like he's arbitrarily moving Eco around.
268: I like GJ's tendency to placate rather than incite Riku. Would be easy to attack/insult back. May not be AI, but I like it.
270/273: This feels like Vaimes wanting to shade Shadow without getting his hands dirty.
279: Is this the first post from Cheese that I really like, first one that tone feels genuine? I should iso him.
283: I really don't get the whole "Tom is being obfuscating" lines from Cheese here and others elsewhere. I feel like Tom's communicating really well.
290: ++town to LnG for trying to make it clear that Tom isn't REALLY scumreading everyone.
292: If Rhand's town, BOOOOOOOOOOOOOO for this response about guessing GJ's role.
297: Rhand followup...could be sincere.
305: Rhand seems disconnected from parts of the game to think rereading HR is a task.
317: This is a bad post from Rhand, and he should feel bad. Why did he assume HR was scum in Banned?
320: Oh, it's ok, Rhand just wasn't paying attention. "lol" Grr.
322/323: Backpedal and "oh, I get it now". On reread, this sounds really fake. +scum to Rhand.
324: I don't like this list from Cheesecake, specifically the "if Cantrip's town, I reassess some of my higher up reads". Feels like "inb4 Cantrip flips town".
330: Tom focusing on how Rhand is responding to him (Tom) feels very town. I think scum!Tom would be more focused on general interactions.
341: Hmm, GJ's explanation for moving Eco around isn't bad... Reiterates difficulty finding wolves.
344: Vaimes' response to GJ is pretty snippy.
Conversation between GJ and Vaimes here makes me think they're not W/W.
367: +town to LnG for translating Tom (even if "helpful scum" is a thing). Possible that LnG and Tom are scum together, but it doesn't feel that way.
401: HR indignation feels genuine. Like, it's all defensive, but...I think he's really angry that so many people are scumreading him off tone from all of two posts. Could be CFTWR, but...doesn't feel like it.
406: I like Vezok's entrance. Obv wrong on Shadow, but he's got reasoning and sounds sincere.
408: I didn't think that Cheese's 405 was all that "snide". Would scum!HR really go out of his way to be confrontational with someone who's actually reaching out to him/not one of the people actively attacking him?
411: Tom town for correctly reading me here. It would have been EEEEEEEAAAAAAASSSSSSYYYYYY for scum!Tom to go "Cantrip scum just like last time slam dunk goodnight". I wouldn't even have been able to mount a defense. I was afraid when I was posting positively that Tom was going to come in and misread it for the same thing as Off the Grid. Slight possibility he's scum afraid that town!Me will figure him out as scum if he scumread me, but...almost certainly not. Tom is pretty much lock town to me now.
417: LnG is thinking about the gamestate and townreading Vez off it. +town
422: I need to dissect this Rhand post more when I have time.
423: Vez has plenty of reasoning behind his reads. +town
424: I don't like this post from Rhand. Feels smarmy.
427: Rhand argues with Vez, comes out on bottom, imo, ends it by saying "mkay" and voting one of Vez's townreads?
445: GJ is only scum if he's scum with Tom.
I wanted to do more, but it's literally five minutes before the deadline, so here you go. I hope you're town and that this helps you figure stuff out!
I meant to type this over the weekend, but tom has balls of steel for that psuedo counterclaim if he is a wolf, especially doing it to the exact same player our wolf buddy Kpaca did it to in Playstation.
Johnny scum for talking about my balls to pull it off and not my brains to not do it lol.
I don't think you would pull the same ***** twice.
If I did, I don't think you would do it TO THE SAME ******* PLAYER.
I don't think you would do it as a wolf, if you knew that I was a wolf with you in that game, saw what happened, and couldn't believe it worked (or that kpaca didn't just immediately get nailed the day after).
But ****, what do I know?
@Cantrip: Still didn't forget, I just haven't had time to go back and read. But before I do, why are you posting your secret message to Eco here for us?
Johnny scum for talking about my balls to pull it off and not my brains to not do it lol.
I don't think you would pull the same ***** twice.
If I did, I don't think you would do it TO THE SAME ******* PLAYER.
I don't think you would do it as a wolf, if you knew that I was a wolf with you in that game, saw what happened, and couldn't believe it worked (or that kpaca didn't just immediately get nailed the day after).
But ****, what do I know?
Wait...what? STORY TIME!!! Having not read Playstation in its entirety, what are you talking about? Can you summarize the sitch (or, eh, at least point me to a range of posts to read)?
Quote from GJ »
@Cantrip: Still didn't forget, I just haven't had time to go back and read. But before I do, why are you posting your secret message to Eco here for us?
I asked Eco if he thought I should, he said mise well, I pretty much agree. Not a lot in there that's "secret" other than my secret, which I've redacted. Most of it is why I sent the message to Eco and then my notes for the reread I did N1.
Me, tom, kpaca, and rodemy were buddies. Vez claimed some sort of investigative role, Kpaca claimed he had a role that made vezok's role likely to be a lie. Town lapped it up, vezok died, kpaca claimed the next day he was a JOAT with an investigative shot of some kind. People got annoyed by let him off.
I have seen almost zero success with ccs that aren't ccs (or pseudo ccs, if you prefer). My amusement was that if tom was a wolf, and vezok was town, the fact that he might be doing the same thing to the same player was making me giggle.
Alas for my funny bone, I suspect it's the exact opposite.
I guess we could leave them both alive toDay in one case: ensure Vez is on the wagon, and force him to keep using his ability. Same goes for Tom. And then (unless they're both scum), scum are forced to choose to leave them alive to investigate, or be forced to continue to lie and clear.
Also, is it just me or has this game slowed down significantly? The first post on this page is from 9 PM on the 3rd, and we've had a whopping 22 posts in roughly 40 hours. Technically, everyone has posted in the last 48 or so, but... it would be nice to come out of a 10 hour work day and see more than one post to respond to. (And yes, I know we have... like 3 V/LA.)
As mentioned previously, I think we should only look at those on Shadow's wagon yesterDay. For reference, the Shadow wagon.
Shadow: Eco, Cantrip, Riku, Vezok, Highroller, Vaimes, Tom
Of those on the Shadow wagon, my list from "Won't to will vote"
Riku - Not that he has been the towniest, but I don't think we should look at him until we sort out Tom/Vezok
Vaimes - Don't get any scummy vibes from him.
Tom - Tom's counterclaim makes more sense to me at the moment, and I think his play has been relatively towny. If no one posts, maybe I'll use my time to reread.
Eco - I'd like to see Eco do... more? Poke more? Take stronger stances?
Cantrip - Cantrip's end of day yesterDay and some of the stuff toDay weirds me out, but after rereading I still don't think this would be a good choice. Cantrip is still engaging at the least, and I think a scum flip would really sort out Cantrip as he has taken strong stances against people this game.
Vezok - Vezok's claim is simpler, but Tom counter-claiming him as scum there doesn't make a good deal of sense. Vezok has had some townie and not-so-townie posts to me. I still don't get his full throated defense of Highroller, but that could be a playstyle issue.
Highroller - Don't need to beat a dead horse here.
Townie points to you Vaimes. For just not giving a fudge. The only players I know who would do that as scum are probably tom and kpaca. And... maybe Iso? Except Iso would probably claim some insane ability too.
Random questions on reread (not commenting on everything, just random stuff that piques my interest):
@Tom, why do you want burner phones?
@Vaimes, do you think the "I usually do X as scum" is a viable tell?
@Highroller, what is your usual method of scumhunting, in your own words? Do you look for logical inconsistencies, emotional tells, phrasing/wording, etc?
Note: I find it weird that Cantrip has talked about how he finds it weird that HR wouldn't be interested in the mechanics of the game, and early game Cantrip said he's excited to use burner phones because they take skill. Yet, he didn't notice that it was a one-night temporary chat rather than permanent chat. Kinda weird, but not necessarily indicative. (Cantrip, I hope you are still enjoying me being in the game with you. :D)
Note: If GJ or Cantrip flips scum, rule of 3 on posts 112 for Cantrip (scumteam is LnGrrrR, GJ, and Shadow) and for GJ on posts 122 and 123. (townie on Shadow/Cheesecake/Cantrip, scum team is Eco/Vaimes and one of Vez/Riku).
Also, GJ and Cantrip snipe at each other a lot early D1, but both were voting me.
@Rhand, did you ever answer Eco's question about why you asked Shadow who he would target with a single copshot?
Note: Cantrip says he suspects GJ mostly if I flip scum (post 144). Reads legit to me, actually.
Note: Highroller's 2nd post is directly after Shadow voting him.
I wouldn't expect *everyone* to think of point #3 (and obviously, given the dearth of D1 discussion, either very few people thought of it and just kept it to themselves, or I'm in an extreme minority on that point, but...that would seem odd to me knowing that it's popular to ). And I thought I was a fair middling chance of being the NK, less likely when Shadow flipped town, of course. But I didn't know, so I sent my thoughts elsewhere. Like I said...don't care if you're queued up to be the next Day's lynch with no chance of being the NK. You have a coin and nothing else to do with it? Why aren't you using the game resources as best you can, eh?
My first instinct when I saw this game was there might be auctions or items that require coins. If I have nothing really to say, even if I rolled vanilla, unless I had some hot read + a fear of dying at night, I would be hesitant to use any coins that I might have.
I...don't see this as an argument against HR being scum? I can think of many players who don't attempt to get other people to join them. Seppel, kpaca, even Tom to an extent come to mind immediately. I could very easily see HR, not having played scum in many years (if ever?) deciding he's just going to adopt the prickly pear persona for the whole game and count on people going "oh that's just how HR is".
I can confirm prickly personality from HR is NAI. I don't have a wolf game to cite, but I would think he would be more persuasive. I think I was responding to just thinking "would he do this as a wolf" but honestly, wouldn't he do this as town as well, so yeah. I don't know why I thought that was an argument.
Townie points to you Vaimes. For just not giving a fudge. The only players I know who would do that as scum are probably tom and kpaca. And... maybe Iso? Except Iso would probably claim some insane ability too.
Enjoy your vacation!
Why are you giving him such a free pass? It's a pretty null answer. Even my wolf reads aren't based on a single wolf team, just individual wolfy players. It's pretty hard to world build when you don't have a dead wolf.
Had a moment, so iso'd Vezok because he has so few posts:
• 364: RVS Vaimes
• 406: I could see scum coming in and linking Shadow and LnG and labeling it scum theatre. If Vez flips scum, pretty sure LnG isn't scum because of the addendum of "if shadow's town, then [shade LnG]". Eh...if that's a pocket attempt on me, it was really well done. He puts out something that sounds like he believes it about someone I'm suspecting at that point (GJ), then provides an interpretation of my behavior that hadn't really been discussed. But I wasn't under much, if any, pressure at that point (really only being attacked by Rhand, with Eco asking some "what's up with you" questions to me), so scum!Vez would have specifically been shooting for the long-game pocket here. That...doesn't mesh with what I would expect from scum!Vez? Then he gives slight +town to Eco and Cheese, with wiggle room.
• 416: He reads another three pages and his only takeaways are Shadow is now town and LnG is scum, Cheese is scum for attacking Tom's gimmick, and Rhand is scummy for "cryptic comments on GJ and defensiveness against Tom". Shadow...wasn't really anywhere close to being lynched at this point. Doesn't feel natural to me for scum!Vez to town-clear Shadow here. He wouldn't be getting any town points for doing so. I guess if he believed Shadow's VT claim and wanted to push somewhere else to try and find a PR? Again attacks LnG and Cheese. If I'm right that the emphasis on LnG in 406 means that LnG is town, then Rhand is more likely to be scum here, imo.
• 418: Finishes catching up, scums Cheese and Rhand again; towns HR and Tom. Calls GJ's interactions with Vaimes "forced". Provides this votecount:
Gj and lrrrgr should not be on the same position, but I have no idea how to split them. I liked a bit of the last posts from lrrgr which was surprising. It looked like trying to pocket tom, but at the same time it was too verbose to not look like a real defense on a slot he considers town or at least not scum for the reasons presented.
It felt odd to me that scum!Vez would change his position on LnG here, so I went back and reread the page before. Shadow and I had both recently moved LnG up on our reads lists, so I could see Vez not gaining any traction on a LnG wagon and trying for something else. But on the flip side, the reasoning he gives doesn't feel made up or simply stolen from existing opinions. Don't feel as confident that Rhand is scum if Vez is scum from the final push of "Cheesecake or Rhand...let's go Rhand because there's more momentum there".
• The very next post, Ruma pops in and questions Vez's "more town than neutral" read on him, with Vez saying Ruma engaging with people is +town. I thought this might be indicative of Ruma poking at Vez-buddy's read on him, but Ruma's previous two posts were a "hmmmmm" in 407 and a snark at Tom in 414, with nothing before that since 234, so it's probably not as indicative as I want it to be.
• 423: This is Vez's defense of HR/response to Rhand, saying HR's behavior matches his Banned Mafia meta. Vez uses extremely strong language to indicate that this is definitely town!HR, strongly defends Tom, and finishes by pushing hard on Rhand. Something feels off here. Shadow has/had been attacking HR for quite a while now, voted him, they'd gone back and forth...lots of content. Rhand makes one point against HR (that's really just propping up a Shadow attack), questions Vez on his town!HR read, and Vez goes ballistic.
@Vez: Why go after Rhand so vehemently for his read on HR but not go after Shadow for 381 (you had Shadow on the "townie" level with Eco in your catchup post (418))?
• 426: Seriously...Vez is treating Rhand as the primary offender against HR. I seriously thought he was talking to Shadow in this one when I was just looking at the iso list. The arguments Vez is talking about are Shadow's arguments.
• 427: This is Rhand's response: "Mkay. Unvote [HR]. Vote Tom." .......... Yeah, if Vez is scum, I think Rhand's scum.
• 431: Vez responds to GJ's attack/vote on him with "wake me up when you start making sense" (which I understand, because I didn't understand all of GJ's post).
• 434: Vez says he's still lost (GJ messed up the quotes in 432, but clarifies in 433).
• 455: Rebuttal to GJ's attack (snarky, but fine, afact).
• 566: Vez responds to Cheese's 551. It's another post with several allusions to HR being town, an indication that Vez's suspects are all attacking HR, and a dismissal of the idea of lurker wagons. It doesn't feel very natural that Cheese's post is the only thing in the last 100 posts that Vez comments on.
• 615: Vez does the same thing again: comes out of the woodwork to defend HR from Cheese, doesn't comment on anything in the last 50 posts. Seems to be a pattern.
• 625: Responds to Eco (but Eco had specifically called him out) about Vez not discussing Eco.
• 627: Weird addendum/clarification to Eco?
Aaaand I'm out of time for the moment.
@Vez: I'd love to hear your take on some of the aspects I point out above, specifically the attack on Rhand for what was mostly Shadow's arguments against HR, and the repeated popping in just to save HR without any other comment on the gamestate.
@HR, I can't wait to read your post after rereading. I'm sure it will be as effective as that time you reread and forgot the whole beginning part of the game where we discussed me asking about coin donation.
Given that you denigrate people for spending time on this game (you know, "tryharding"), when do you think we can expect your thoughts on Tom's claim and Shadow's wagon? Day 5 perhaps? Or do you expect you will really hunker down and get to business, posting your thoughts, say, 30 minutes before deadline?
I actually did reread Tom from beginning of Vez's claim. There aren't that many posts. Here I'll even help you a bit.
For reference, Vez claimed post 774. Tom's post 775.
Rhand/vez scum still vibes a lot more to me than any of ruma/shadow/highroller. So im more watching them and the people i think are town than trying to sort through the wagons on their own merits
@cheesewhiz
[quote from="tomsloger »" url="/forums/community-forums/mafia/804103-secret-agent-mafia-day-1-international-men-and?comment=330"]
As for gj read. Not super into talking about it but if i fully understood it all its a read scum are more likely to make but less likely to vocalize when they do. So i can see you thinking its not a route wolves are likely to take but dont think its more than a percentage point or two and barely care about it
@lngrr
Vez is scum claiming a role that buys him 2 days. Doesnt mean i want to lynch an unCCed cop d1 (nor do i want a CC tbh), but im still watching his votes closely
Rhand is scum still mainly for progression on me, which he doesnt actually have...
But the rest of his stances you can also watch morphing based on thread opinion of him/those people and its just an extremely scummy interaction with thread flow.
Hi
Pretty sure we had v/v wagons and highroller is just VT.
Which would maybe make cantrips scummy eod... not scummy? Because it at least looks like he cared about the result
Not real married to that though
Im now realizing i forgot the gimmick but whatever im at work.
V/la through the weekend
And i think i want to vote vezok for now. I just dont believe the claim and think his highroller defense comes from scum 90% of the time regardless of highroller alignment
Vez scum because i think cheese got killed for looking like a cop responding to vez fakeclaim.
Thats what i thought anyway and vezscum seems the most likely team to kill him
Rhand and cantrip both scum, but not together.
Gut says i want to lynch in those two today tbh, but we got a lot of time. No dichotomy there but based on my reads and some world building theres usually one scum in the two which helps solving the other a lot.
Actually wanna vote cantrip aorn.
This is not a "cantrip is scummier than rhand now" but rather a "yeah ok maybe im tunnelled this is the scumflip that would get me out of it if im wrong"
His eod isnt as bad with highroller being town, but some amount of the rest of his play looks worse
Lets call the two of them a new tier thats still more likely town than vez but below the pile of shrugs and sighs that is gj
Would not vote outside of those 4 (vez, rhand, cantrip, gj) today barring something major happening.
Gj scum for asking good questions to everyone but me.
Come on man what do you think you've done worth moving you out of null?
Tom scum for voting vez to state his opinion for the record, then moving on to someone that should actually be a lynch candidate today.
I guess.
Yes obviously dont lynch vez today in the event hes real scum have to deal with him. I still think hes scum though.
Vez scum because a full cop never exists in this setup with ruma being a tracker + [the investigative role that ive been softing pretty obviously]
Dont really think i should have to claim it but i will if necessary
vote vezok
There ya go. If Tom is scum, he set this up early D1, and he's soft counterclaiming a claimed cop. If town!Vez is lynched, then it confirms town!Riku and puts a ton of pressure on scum!Tom D3 tomorrow.
Other options are that town!Tom is mistaken and his role could still be town with a tracker/RBer in town AND a cop. Or scum!Tom decided for some reason to hardbus scum!Vez but that would be insane and just isn't worth putting any thought towards at all. And really, neither is the 1st in my opinion.
Hope that helped! I aim to please, after all.
I am not sure how you got that tom was setting it up behorehand. He didn't seem bothered by it based on his 775, I might be getting distracted by his schtick, but I don't really see the breadcrumbs.
I also don't know why no one thinks Riku/Vezok can't be wolves together, and it would be unheard of that a vezok isn't just powerwolfing. I would rather lynch Riku first because if I am wrong, we don't burn a cop. His track target also doesn't make sense: Why wouldn't he, as a tracker, target vezok to confirm his target? Targeting highroller doesn't matter because it would just mean he didn't take an action, not that he necessarily didn't do anything.
And before anyone "AHAS" me, I have started playing in a world without Godfathers in closed set-ups, and just pretending the game doesn't exist if I get cheesed.
@GJ, I already had Vaimes as town, and I think that scum would be less likely to just be like, "nope, don't have time now" and would just not answer instead. I am going to keep rereading, but if I can't figure out his reads, I'll re-engage after his V/LA. Additionally, someone who says, "I am on vacation" in response to a question probably won't respond back to further inquiries.
775 could be a coincidence that Tom posted right afterwards, but his next few posts immediately throw Vez into his scumbasket. He seems way too sure that Vezok is scum claiming cop. And the other posts referencing Vez all read the same.
So it is Vezok or Tom today, right? Is there anyone out there who thinks we should leave this dichotomy for another day?
Ultimately, I think it kind of has to be. Tracker + Cop-shot + Tom + Cheesecake's watch all feel like too much for a Mini (especially since at least LnGrrR is some kind of power). And as much as I might secretly hope he is, I don't think Tom is lying here because a) he didn't need to claim to push a lyncha and b) if Vezok flips town he's suddenly in the *****. I don't think there's much point leaving them both alive, since the odds of them both being town are really very low. So yeah, I'd like to vote Vezok, but I'm not going to put him in self hammer range.
@Riku: I get your point that there are tpyes of players who more passively look at things rather than actively sorting, but I think it's more of a spectrum rather than absolute, and I also think that even if HR was a totally passive player it's surprising that he hasn't got any town reads at all.
@Cantrip: I need to read your answers in depth. What I'm trying to do is take the info dump you gave me and sift through it for consistency of things like how and when reads were made, and if they make logical sense or if the analysis is opportunistic. It's quite a lot to read through when I really just want to write you off as town for effort (which I know I shouldn't). Would be useful to hear what anyone else thinkg about it.
By now everyone was on high alert. Agency contacts were proving hard to reach for many. Worse were the ones telling them to go into hiding and not providing information. Worst of all were the ones saying "I don't know who's behind his but you need to find out." Last thing any intelligence agent wants is an open ended mission, with no leads to find out who is trying to kill them.
Me, tom, kpaca, and rodemy were buddies. Vez claimed some sort of investigative role, Kpaca claimed he had a role that made vezok's role likely to be a lie. Town lapped it up, vezok died, kpaca claimed the next day he was a JOAT with an investigative shot of some kind. People got annoyed by let him off.
I have seen almost zero success with ccs that aren't ccs (or pseudo ccs, if you prefer). My amusement was that if tom was a wolf, and vezok was town, the fact that he might be doing the same thing to the same player was making me giggle.
Bonus points if you and Tom are both wolves again, Tom's doing it to Vezok again, and this is you inb4-ing to totally point it out and moot the counterargument before it's made.
Note: I find it weird that Cantrip has talked about how he finds it weird that HR wouldn't be interested in the mechanics of the game, and early game Cantrip said he's excited to use burner phones because they take skill. Yet, he didn't notice that it was a one-night temporary chat rather than permanent chat. Kinda weird, but not necessarily indicative. (Cantrip, I hope you are still enjoying me being in the game with you. :D)
1) I didn't think it was permanent chat, just single-Night chat (or maybe that's what you meant by "permanent chat").
2) I really thought the Burner Phone ability was "...to chat with a player of their choosing" not just "...send a message to a player of their choosing."
3) Eh, it's still sorta skill-testing, but different skills and less entertaining overall, imo.
4) I actually found out that it was a message not a chat because I asked Grape on Discord if I opened a chat with Shadow and Shadow opened a chat with me would it be clear that two chats were opened and he was like, "lolwut there's no chats it's just a single message; this isn't Secret Neighbors 2" and I was like "...sad. I literally thought it was Secret Neighbors with a Twist."
My first instinct when I saw this game was there might be auctions or items that require coins. If I have nothing really to say, even if I rolled vanilla, unless I had some hot read + a fear of dying at night, I would be hesitant to use any coins that I might have.
Yeah, I can understand that, especially if you actually read the rules and knew it was a 1-shot messsage. I had a note that Riku's suggestion that there might be lots of abilities that used coins to be somewhat revolutionary because we already had a major central mechanic that used them. When I realized that it was a rather minor mechanic, his thought became a lot less revolutionary.
I'm sure it seems like obsession because that's what our recent conversation has been about. But I'm really not obsessed; I just can't figure out a player who appears to be completely ignoring a game mechanic (even going out of his way to say "oh look I didn't use a phone guys!"). The only way it makes sense to me is for you to be scum trying to look innocent "because you didn't do anything at Night". Can you really not see the potential to catch scum (or pressure them into making a bad claim)? That last comment of yours there, btw, is a pretty classic strawman. I'm pointing out that the burner phones provide town with provable accountability for their Night actions, and you're responding with "Cantrip thinks players who DON'T communicate at Night are scum!" Please tell me that comment was tongue in cheek.
It was.
OH MY FREAKING GOSH. How are you not seeing my point??? The point isn't the messaging! It's the accountability!
?
Is it the most incredible thing ever and we should drop everything else and spend time figuring out who's going to send messages to whom? Of course not. But is it possibly something that scum didn't think through that we can use to expose their actions, lack of actions, and/or motivation/mindset? Absolutely.
I'm not saying it wouldn't have utility.
But yeah, saying that you'd be mafia if you didn't use it is overkill. It's night one. I'm a vanilla town. What, precisely was I going to send, particularly when I'd pretty much already covered my position on the game Day 1?
I mean you say this: "Is it the most incredible thing ever and we should drop everything else and spend time figuring out who's going to send messages to whom? Of course not. But is it possibly something that scum didn't think through that we can use to expose their actions, lack of actions, and/or motivation/mindset? Absolutely." But you voted me because I didn't use it. So really it does seem to be more like the former for you, huh?
That said, I'm not seeing any support on this, which means that either a majority of town was doing something else with their coins, or there are multiple town who feel the same as you do/made a similar choice and I just need to get over my disbelief. Plus we have a claim situation that needs to be resolved.
Wait so why would you post, "OH MY FREAKING GOSH. How are you not seeing my point??? The point isn't the messaging! It's the accountability!" when you were just going to unvote?
But yeah, saying that you'd be mafia if you didn't use it is overkill. It's night one. I'm a vanilla town. What, precisely was I going to send, particularly when I'd pretty much already covered my position on the game Day 1?
I've given my thoughts on this (and even posted my example); why do you keep asking me what I thought you should have done? Point is moot. I can accept that my mindset seems to be much less of a majority than I expected.
Quote from HR »
I mean you say this: "Is it the most incredible thing ever and we should drop everything else and spend time figuring out who's going to send messages to whom? Of course not. But is it possibly something that scum didn't think through that we can use to expose their actions, lack of actions, and/or motivation/mindset? Absolutely." But you voted me because I didn't use it. So really it does seem to be more like the former for you, huh?
No, you'll note from my message to Eco that I planned on starting D2 talking about that mechanic, but when you posted that you specifically hadn't used a phone, I figured I'd wait and ask you about it first. Your choice didn't make any sense to me, so I figured that I had "exposed your actions, lack of actions, and or motivation/mindset" as scummy. I probably should have waited to see if anyone else claimed similarly, but I got excited and figured if I caught one scum, I was getting more mileage than I could have hoped for.
Quote from HR »
That said, I'm not seeing any support on this, which means that either a majority of town was doing something else with their coins, or there are multiple town who feel the same as you do/made a similar choice and I just need to get over my disbelief. Plus we have a claim situation that needs to be resolved.
Wait so why would you post, "OH MY FREAKING GOSH. How are you not seeing my point??? The point isn't the messaging! It's the accountability!" when you were just going to unvote?
Because I think I'm right, and I want to convince you that I'm right, and I want to shake your mindset so that hopefully the next time you're presented with a similar situation, you think back to that really obnoxious conversation you had with that obnoxiously verbose guy in some game, and maybe you consider making choices that better reflect how I think town should act. (The snark in that response is tongue-in-cheek, but the underlying sentiment is sincere and intended to be constructive. I really do think I'm right here, and I really do want you/others to remember this kind of conversation and use the information gleaned when you/they approach future games...whether you/they decide I'm right or not, eh?)
The unvote wasn't because of your responses; it was because of other player's comments (such as GJ saying his thoughts immediately went to auction house/buying items and he planned to save his coins).
Game slowed WAAAAAAAY down (which I can totally understand because my own life got busier), but 4 hour and 9 hour breaks between posts is...eh, really slow. Can I get a non-drunk Rhand and slightly more verbose Vezok in here?
EWP: @LnG: I said I was down for a Vez vote once we were ready to end the Day. I'd like to hear Vezok's thoughts at least one more time, though, just in case Tom's playing us for fools.
@everyone not voting Tom or Vezok that isn't Tom or Vezok,
Why? (If it's a virtual vote, please explain.)
My vote might as well be 90% Vezok, 10% Riku. I can't believe Vezok isn't exploding, based on what I said earlier about this same thing happening.
Eh, **** it. No one else is talking and at least one player is v/la to the 11th. Vezok should be jumping up and down and screaming at all of us if he is town, and is about to be mislynched again by a pseudo cc. Or, he is just a wolf.
This freaking game is killing me. People show up, post once or twice, then disappear for 24 hours. I feel like we are all playing this game from space stations on different planets.
I'm here but really drunk. I just finished my exams and I don't feel like playing.
Sorry to hear that. Return when things are better (which I hope is soon). I'd rather have fun-loving scum!Vez at the top of his game fool me than town!Vez in a sad mood get lynched because he could only muster a half-hearted effort, eh?
If we’re going to lynch Vezok because tom has an investigative role, then I want to know what role that is that isn’t a cop but can exist next to a tracker and 1-shot watcher, so we can make an informed decision without giving tom the chance to back out of it if Vezok does flip as claimed.
Also, my team won a SB. Woot woot!
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
So yeah interesting developments. I don't find the number of investigative roles too much, because it's balanced by having to use coins. tom should know that and his CC is weird and unexpected.
Then there's the people who jumped on my wagon with nothing to say. tom is tom and he at least knows his own role, but lnggr and Vaimes just jumped at the first opportunity with no comments. Is tom such a high townread for both of you or did you just smell a wagon to jump to it?
Vaimes here saying my silence was loud when I was away is laughable.
I haven't had time for the promised re-read, but from I read today my readslist hasn't changed much. There's too many people randomly jumping on wagons and riding that wave out.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
Also, while your role takes coins, Riku confirmed he can track without using coins.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
tom is a high townread and I still think your defense of Highroller was more TMI than not.
Vezok scum because yeah the **** right 3 active, nightly investigatives in a 12er
Tom scum for going snowboarding instead of playing mafia.
V/la continues through the 7th. Ish.
Idk mammoth is a big mountain but my knee will only last so long
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
... *squints* *not sure if didn't read my long rant about why I used a burner phone or if simply ignored it*
Specifically to ensure that if scum weren't thinking about it, they couldn't plan around it N1. Again, I felt pretty confidently that the average town mindset would be "hey, I should consider using this game mechanic", while scum would be more likely to have other actions to take and/or choose not to act.
Um...given that LnG and I had a whole conversation about it early game...yeah, yeah, it certainly did. *I* am not a coin passer/manipulator/stealer/granter, and nothing came to light to make me think that I would be able to "save" my coin for that kind of purpose, so I used mine as I saw fit. Do you really think town with no indication of a reason to save their coins should save their coins? (And...why "most importantly", eh?)
If you are scum, I'll laugh that you called it a fact that I did that. But my use of a phone on Eco wasn't meant to do anything for you. I seriously considered reaching out to you with the intent of giving you a chance to figure me out if you were town and to give me a chance to assess how you took the action, but I don't think me sending half a reread's worth of notes is going to shake you out of your town!tunnel, and it certainly won't do much good if you're scum. I don't really care if you believe me on this particular claim or not; if you're town, you should be suspicious, and if you're scum, that's an easy motive check to fail.
...not to mention my note about how I'd love using it as scum? :eyeroll:
This was less detailed than I was hoping for, but ok.
You soft CC'ing Vez at this point in the game, especially with the trail of breadcrumbs you've been dropping that should have been more obvious to me, buys you a lot of leeway. I don't feel like your claim is necessary. If Vez flips town, you're going to practically be the de facto lynch, and you're an experienced enough player to know this, so...I don't think scum!you'd gladiate town!Vez like this.
FTR, that sounds like a really rough restriction unless scum have access to a whole bank vault of coins. I'd be very surprised if they can only communicate via phones.
Ok, so it varies. I'm pretty consistent, especially as VT, in rereading the previous Day/Game as time permits.
Thanks. I'm all for anything that reduces the snark overall.
I'm sure it seems like obsession because that's what our recent conversation has been about. But I'm really not obsessed; I just can't figure out a player who appears to be completely ignoring a game mechanic (even going out of his way to say "oh look I didn't use a phone guys!"). The only way it makes sense to me is for you to be scum trying to look innocent "because you didn't do anything at Night". Can you really not see the potential to catch scum (or pressure them into making a bad claim)? That last comment of yours there, btw, is a pretty classic strawman. I'm pointing out that the burner phones provide town with provable accountability for their Night actions, and you're responding with "Cantrip thinks players who DON'T communicate at Night are scum!" Please tell me that comment was tongue in cheek.
OH MY FREAKING GOSH. How are you not seeing my point??? The point isn't the messaging! It's the accountability! Is it the most incredible thing ever and we should drop everything else and spend time figuring out who's going to send messages to whom? Of course not. But is it possibly something that scum didn't think through that we can use to expose their actions, lack of actions, and/or motivation/mindset? Absolutely.
That said, I'm not seeing any support on this, which means that either a majority of town was doing something else with their coins, or there are multiple town who feel the same as you do/made a similar choice and I just need to get over my disbelief. Plus we have a claim situation that needs to be resolved.
Since you don't know whether Tom needs coins or not, and since we have confirmation of mechanics in the game that don't use coins, and since one of those mechanics is an information ability, making the argument that you feel like four town information roles are balanced (even if they're all 1-shot) feels a little laughable.
So here's where I'm at on Vez/Tom. I now think it's a lot more possible that scum!Vez got run up and fake-claimed cop D1 to draw the real cop out, then got cocky when no CC came and decided to sweeten the pot by making his 1-shot cost less than he originally claimed (in response to pressure/suspicion, none the less). I don't know what to think about his Riku target; it doesn't make a lot of sense from either alignment, imo. I think if Vez flps scum, I'm leaning toward it making Riku more likely to be scum. It's a risky play on their part if he is, but it still fits with Riku tracking HR (to see if his VT claim was to hide a PR), as well as making more sense from a setup standpoint. A town role with two abilities doesn't make as much sense as a scum one. But that's a bridge for another Day.
Tom's counterclaim, as LnG pointed out, would have to be pretty convoluted to come from scum. Not impossible, but...unlikely. I guess I said that about Vez's cop target claim, so I guess ymmv, but that's how I feel right now.
@Eco: Did my responses address your questions in 1036?
I'll post my N1 missive to Eco in the next post, spoilered so as not to be overwhelming, and slightly redacted because I'm not willing to share my secret or some of my observations.
I'm on board for lynching Vez as soon as we're ready to end the Day, but we've got plenty of time to talk other things out.
Unvote
[REDACTED] I think you're town, so I'm going to start off this little correspondence by divulging a secret: [REDACTED] [If I die N1,] this serves as my last will and testament; do with my reads what you will, bearing in mind that town reads by their very nature have to be taken with a grain of salt. If not, feel free to hold me accountable for anything I say here. [REDACTED]
So why are YOU getting this? I wanted this to go to one of my town reads (see list below). I know from past experience that Tom and I don't operate on similar wavelengths, so while he might gain some insight into me from this, I don't think it would be as effective as going elsewhere. I really want to send this to LnG, but there were several moments in the game that people postulated on him being a PR, so it's possible he'll be the NK and this doesn't do any good in dead hands. Of my three other higher town reads, I don't feel like Riku will do much, if anything, with the info, and I feel like Vez and I are already on the same page. I know you're a good analyst, and I'm pretty sure you're not scum. I also feel like you're most likely to do something with the info, so...
Here's my T-S list, which I will post in my first post of D2. If you have any questions about my reasons/rationale, feel free to grill me. I plan on starting off with mechanics: Grape confirmed that using a burner phone to send a message counts as an action (and no other action can be taken), so hopefully we can hold some people accountable for Night actions. (Grape didn't confirm whether the scum NK counts as an "action", though, so not definitive.)
Town
tomsloger
LnGrrrR
Ecophagy
Rumanshi (Riku)
vezokpiraka
Gentleman Johnny
Vaimes
Highroller
SleepyCheesecake
Rhand
Scum
I tried to reread, only got through page 9. Here are my results, with some redactions:
N1 Reread:
3, 4: Tom getting inb4 scummy is probably NAI?
10: Vaimes fishing for gender? Probably just small talk?
20: Could be scum theatre between Cheese and Tom.
34: Vaimes is prophetic! Grin
37/38: I like the result of this exchange between Cheese and Riku. +town to both.
44: Vaimes buddying with me?
50: Normally voting a non-player would be a red flag (I've seen it be true!), but with HR, I don't feel like the normal rules apply.
56: I still don't like this fishing from LnG...just feels really slimy. Frown
65: Why does Rhand just take Cheesecake's word that Cheese didn't read his flavor, so much so that he's willing to call Cheese town?
72: GJ could be leaping to support a townie while shading Shadow?
77: I didn't see the awkwardness in this post of LnG's that Shadow talked about at the time, and I don't see it now, either. Maybe Shadow's on to something, though?
85: If LnG's scum, not sure he calls Shadow and I town (when he knows we are) and scumreads GJ? Unless GJ's scum and he's getting in early bus credit?
88: If GJ's scum, would be odd for him to not pursue LnG here, not when two townies (Shadow and I) are pursuing LnG.
94: If Eco's scum, why would he shade me AND use language that mirrors my own?
98: A fair bit of self-deprecation from LnG, but I like his observation on GJ.
100: Not sure how much of GJ's "I'm on [Shadow's list], so I'm ok with [Shadow] for now" is joking, but I like his question to Eco.
101: Still don't understand how LnG thinks it's ok to fish "because they can just [expend resources and give me (LnG) information via the burner phone mechanic]". Not sure what to make of the "give me some credit" line...
103: Feels like a good post from Eco, trying to figure things out. A little odd that he asks about Cheese and not GJ?
136: Still feel like Eco's being measured and patient. If he's scum, he's playing it VERY well.
139: I didn't get GJ's wink wink the first time through, but now I'm pretty sure he's referring to Shadow maybe not actually being VT. +town to GJ.
142: A soft defense of me (or, at least, a dismissal of one of Rhand's assertions) doesn't feel like a scum!GJ thing to do.
145: Feels a little off that Vaimes pops in to townread Eco and snark GJ? If Eco or Vaimes flip scum, come back to this?
150: Can't tell if this is town!Eco hoping for a soulread from Tom or scum!Eco looking for Tom to incorrectly read me.
159: Rereading this post makes me want to vote LnG all over again. What actual mindset goes "hey, everyone! I have a coin to give to you! Let me know if you have a use for it! And if you want to keep it secret, just use a coin to tell me and I'll get you a coin!"?????
198: Can't tell if this is town!Tom correctly townreading me or scum!Tom pocketing me. Less likely to be scum given his playful attacks on Shadow and Eco in the same post?
205: Vaimes is trying to get inside Shadow's head. +town
211: If Vaimes is scum, there's some irony here given his push on me and Shadow in the previous post.
213: But this Vaimes post feels genuine. Sounds like he really has been considering those reasons against Shadow.
241: First solid post from Tom all game, but feels like there's a lot of conviction there.
253: LnG's read list is fair. Surprised no read on Rhand. Slight possibility if he knows GJ is scum that he's trying to link Shadow. Feels odd to have lurking HR at bottom of the list, but not too odd.
255: Feels really off for Vaimes to randomly ask for Rhand's zodiac sign.
256: Scum!Eco doesn't tell town!Me to calm down and take a step back/reassess. ++town
264: GJ pushing back against Vaimes' indication that if I were town, I'd be a wagon is +town for GJ.
267: But I'm not as fond of GJ's "no wolf reads, maybe Az?" comment. Although iirc there are going to be quite a few people posting similar thoughts... Did he have Eco listed in the town reads with me/LnG/Shadow (extra / at the end)? If so, feels like he's arbitrarily moving Eco around.
268: I like GJ's tendency to placate rather than incite Riku. Would be easy to attack/insult back. May not be AI, but I like it.
270/273: This feels like Vaimes wanting to shade Shadow without getting his hands dirty.
279: Is this the first post from Cheese that I really like, first one that tone feels genuine? I should iso him.
283: I really don't get the whole "Tom is being obfuscating" lines from Cheese here and others elsewhere. I feel like Tom's communicating really well.
290: ++town to LnG for trying to make it clear that Tom isn't REALLY scumreading everyone.
292: If Rhand's town, BOOOOOOOOOOOOOO for this response about guessing GJ's role.
297: Rhand followup...could be sincere.
305: Rhand seems disconnected from parts of the game to think rereading HR is a task.
317: This is a bad post from Rhand, and he should feel bad. Why did he assume HR was scum in Banned?
320: Oh, it's ok, Rhand just wasn't paying attention. "lol" Grr.
322/323: Backpedal and "oh, I get it now". On reread, this sounds really fake. +scum to Rhand.
324: I don't like this list from Cheesecake, specifically the "if Cantrip's town, I reassess some of my higher up reads". Feels like "inb4 Cantrip flips town".
330: Tom focusing on how Rhand is responding to him (Tom) feels very town. I think scum!Tom would be more focused on general interactions.
341: Hmm, GJ's explanation for moving Eco around isn't bad... Reiterates difficulty finding wolves.
344: Vaimes' response to GJ is pretty snippy.
Conversation between GJ and Vaimes here makes me think they're not W/W.
367: +town to LnG for translating Tom (even if "helpful scum" is a thing). Possible that LnG and Tom are scum together, but it doesn't feel that way.
401: HR indignation feels genuine. Like, it's all defensive, but...I think he's really angry that so many people are scumreading him off tone from all of two posts. Could be CFTWR, but...doesn't feel like it.
406: I like Vezok's entrance. Obv wrong on Shadow, but he's got reasoning and sounds sincere.
408: I didn't think that Cheese's 405 was all that "snide". Would scum!HR really go out of his way to be confrontational with someone who's actually reaching out to him/not one of the people actively attacking him?
411: Tom town for correctly reading me here. It would have been EEEEEEEAAAAAAASSSSSSYYYYYY for scum!Tom to go "Cantrip scum just like last time slam dunk goodnight". I wouldn't even have been able to mount a defense. I was afraid when I was posting positively that Tom was going to come in and misread it for the same thing as Off the Grid. Slight possibility he's scum afraid that town!Me will figure him out as scum if he scumread me, but...almost certainly not. Tom is pretty much lock town to me now.
417: LnG is thinking about the gamestate and townreading Vez off it. +town
422: I need to dissect this Rhand post more when I have time.
423: Vez has plenty of reasoning behind his reads. +town
424: I don't like this post from Rhand. Feels smarmy.
427: Rhand argues with Vez, comes out on bottom, imo, ends it by saying "mkay" and voting one of Vez's townreads?
445: GJ is only scum if he's scum with Tom.
I wanted to do more, but it's literally five minutes before the deadline, so here you go. I hope you're town and that this helps you figure stuff out!
Cantrip
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I don't think you would pull the same ***** twice.
If I did, I don't think you would do it TO THE SAME ******* PLAYER.
I don't think you would do it as a wolf, if you knew that I was a wolf with you in that game, saw what happened, and couldn't believe it worked (or that kpaca didn't just immediately get nailed the day after).
But ****, what do I know?
@Cantrip: Still didn't forget, I just haven't had time to go back and read. But before I do, why are you posting your secret message to Eco here for us?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I asked Eco if he thought I should, he said mise well, I pretty much agree. Not a lot in there that's "secret" other than my secret, which I've redacted. Most of it is why I sent the message to Eco and then my notes for the reread I did N1.
Me, tom, kpaca, and rodemy were buddies. Vez claimed some sort of investigative role, Kpaca claimed he had a role that made vezok's role likely to be a lie. Town lapped it up, vezok died, kpaca claimed the next day he was a JOAT with an investigative shot of some kind. People got annoyed by let him off.
I have seen almost zero success with ccs that aren't ccs (or pseudo ccs, if you prefer). My amusement was that if tom was a wolf, and vezok was town, the fact that he might be doing the same thing to the same player was making me giggle.
Alas for my funny bone, I suspect it's the exact opposite.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Also, is it just me or has this game slowed down significantly? The first post on this page is from 9 PM on the 3rd, and we've had a whopping 22 posts in roughly 40 hours. Technically, everyone has posted in the last 48 or so, but... it would be nice to come out of a 10 hour work day and see more than one post to respond to. (And yes, I know we have... like 3 V/LA.)
As mentioned previously, I think we should only look at those on Shadow's wagon yesterDay. For reference, the Shadow wagon.
Shadow: Eco, Cantrip, Riku, Vezok, Highroller, Vaimes, Tom
Of those on the Shadow wagon, my list from "Won't to will vote"
Riku - Not that he has been the towniest, but I don't think we should look at him until we sort out Tom/Vezok
Vaimes - Don't get any scummy vibes from him.
Tom - Tom's counterclaim makes more sense to me at the moment, and I think his play has been relatively towny. If no one posts, maybe I'll use my time to reread.
Eco - I'd like to see Eco do... more? Poke more? Take stronger stances?
Cantrip - Cantrip's end of day yesterDay and some of the stuff toDay weirds me out, but after rereading I still don't think this would be a good choice. Cantrip is still engaging at the least, and I think a scum flip would really sort out Cantrip as he has taken strong stances against people this game.
Vezok - Vezok's claim is simpler, but Tom counter-claiming him as scum there doesn't make a good deal of sense. Vezok has had some townie and not-so-townie posts to me. I still don't get his full throated defense of Highroller, but that could be a playstyle issue.
Highroller - Don't need to beat a dead horse here.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Lynch vez
Protection on me or ruma
Profit
Not totally convinced one way or another on ruma but tracker a pretty powerful role afaict in this setup if hes town
Everyone should be using their coins one way or another prolly
I certainly dont need to wait til march 15 lol
V/la continues, possibly through the 8th now. 120+ inches of snowfall in the last week up here. dope trip
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
I barely remember my reads, since I’m on vacation.
Enjoy your vacation!
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
@Tom, why do you want burner phones?
@Vaimes, do you think the "I usually do X as scum" is a viable tell?
@Highroller, what is your usual method of scumhunting, in your own words? Do you look for logical inconsistencies, emotional tells, phrasing/wording, etc?
Note: I find it weird that Cantrip has talked about how he finds it weird that HR wouldn't be interested in the mechanics of the game, and early game Cantrip said he's excited to use burner phones because they take skill. Yet, he didn't notice that it was a one-night temporary chat rather than permanent chat. Kinda weird, but not necessarily indicative. (Cantrip, I hope you are still enjoying me being in the game with you. :D)
Note: If GJ or Cantrip flips scum, rule of 3 on posts 112 for Cantrip (scumteam is LnGrrrR, GJ, and Shadow) and for GJ on posts 122 and 123. (townie on Shadow/Cheesecake/Cantrip, scum team is Eco/Vaimes and one of Vez/Riku).
Also, GJ and Cantrip snipe at each other a lot early D1, but both were voting me.
@Rhand, did you ever answer Eco's question about why you asked Shadow who he would target with a single copshot?
Note: Cantrip says he suspects GJ mostly if I flip scum (post 144). Reads legit to me, actually.
Note: Highroller's 2nd post is directly after Shadow voting him.
@Vaimes, what zodiac sign do you think I am?
... through page 6.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
My first instinct when I saw this game was there might be auctions or items that require coins. If I have nothing really to say, even if I rolled vanilla, unless I had some hot read + a fear of dying at night, I would be hesitant to use any coins that I might have.
I can confirm prickly personality from HR is NAI. I don't have a wolf game to cite, but I would think he would be more persuasive. I think I was responding to just thinking "would he do this as a wolf" but honestly, wouldn't he do this as town as well, so yeah. I don't know why I thought that was an argument.
I thought I had more to respond to, but fine.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
What reason do you think that is scum meta? Town tom isn't sill 100% of the time, unless there was something else you were trying to point out?
Actually @tom: Why am I in your lynch pile out of 4?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Why are you giving him such a free pass? It's a pretty null answer. Even my wolf reads aren't based on a single wolf team, just individual wolfy players. It's pretty hard to world build when you don't have a dead wolf.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
• 364: RVS Vaimes
• 406: I could see scum coming in and linking Shadow and LnG and labeling it scum theatre. If Vez flips scum, pretty sure LnG isn't scum because of the addendum of "if shadow's town, then [shade LnG]". Eh...if that's a pocket attempt on me, it was really well done. He puts out something that sounds like he believes it about someone I'm suspecting at that point (GJ), then provides an interpretation of my behavior that hadn't really been discussed. But I wasn't under much, if any, pressure at that point (really only being attacked by Rhand, with Eco asking some "what's up with you" questions to me), so scum!Vez would have specifically been shooting for the long-game pocket here. That...doesn't mesh with what I would expect from scum!Vez? Then he gives slight +town to Eco and Cheese, with wiggle room.
• 416: He reads another three pages and his only takeaways are Shadow is now town and LnG is scum, Cheese is scum for attacking Tom's gimmick, and Rhand is scummy for "cryptic comments on GJ and defensiveness against Tom". Shadow...wasn't really anywhere close to being lynched at this point. Doesn't feel natural to me for scum!Vez to town-clear Shadow here. He wouldn't be getting any town points for doing so. I guess if he believed Shadow's VT claim and wanted to push somewhere else to try and find a PR? Again attacks LnG and Cheese. If I'm right that the emphasis on LnG in 406 means that LnG is town, then Rhand is more likely to be scum here, imo.
• 418: Finishes catching up, scums Cheese and Rhand again; towns HR and Tom. Calls GJ's interactions with Vaimes "forced". Provides this votecount:
But then also says:
It felt odd to me that scum!Vez would change his position on LnG here, so I went back and reread the page before. Shadow and I had both recently moved LnG up on our reads lists, so I could see Vez not gaining any traction on a LnG wagon and trying for something else. But on the flip side, the reasoning he gives doesn't feel made up or simply stolen from existing opinions. Don't feel as confident that Rhand is scum if Vez is scum from the final push of "Cheesecake or Rhand...let's go Rhand because there's more momentum there".
• The very next post, Ruma pops in and questions Vez's "more town than neutral" read on him, with Vez saying Ruma engaging with people is +town. I thought this might be indicative of Ruma poking at Vez-buddy's read on him, but Ruma's previous two posts were a "hmmmmm" in 407 and a snark at Tom in 414, with nothing before that since 234, so it's probably not as indicative as I want it to be.
• 423: This is Vez's defense of HR/response to Rhand, saying HR's behavior matches his Banned Mafia meta. Vez uses extremely strong language to indicate that this is definitely town!HR, strongly defends Tom, and finishes by pushing hard on Rhand. Something feels off here. Shadow has/had been attacking HR for quite a while now, voted him, they'd gone back and forth...lots of content. Rhand makes one point against HR (that's really just propping up a Shadow attack), questions Vez on his town!HR read, and Vez goes ballistic.
@Vez: Why go after Rhand so vehemently for his read on HR but not go after Shadow for 381 (you had Shadow on the "townie" level with Eco in your catchup post (418))?
• 426: Seriously...Vez is treating Rhand as the primary offender against HR. I seriously thought he was talking to Shadow in this one when I was just looking at the iso list. The arguments Vez is talking about are Shadow's arguments.
• 427: This is Rhand's response: "Mkay. Unvote [HR]. Vote Tom." .......... Yeah, if Vez is scum, I think Rhand's scum.
• 431: Vez responds to GJ's attack/vote on him with "wake me up when you start making sense" (which I understand, because I didn't understand all of GJ's post).
• 434: Vez says he's still lost (GJ messed up the quotes in 432, but clarifies in 433).
• 455: Rebuttal to GJ's attack (snarky, but fine, afact).
• 566: Vez responds to Cheese's 551. It's another post with several allusions to HR being town, an indication that Vez's suspects are all attacking HR, and a dismissal of the idea of lurker wagons. It doesn't feel very natural that Cheese's post is the only thing in the last 100 posts that Vez comments on.
• 615: Vez does the same thing again: comes out of the woodwork to defend HR from Cheese, doesn't comment on anything in the last 50 posts. Seems to be a pattern.
• 625: Responds to Eco (but Eco had specifically called him out) about Vez not discussing Eco.
• 627: Weird addendum/clarification to Eco?
Aaaand I'm out of time for the moment.
@Vez: I'd love to hear your take on some of the aspects I point out above, specifically the attack on Rhand for what was mostly Shadow's arguments against HR, and the repeated popping in just to save HR without any other comment on the gamestate.
I am not sure how you got that tom was setting it up behorehand. He didn't seem bothered by it based on his 775, I might be getting distracted by his schtick, but I don't really see the breadcrumbs.
I also don't know why no one thinks Riku/Vezok can't be wolves together, and it would be unheard of that a vezok isn't just powerwolfing. I would rather lynch Riku first because if I am wrong, we don't burn a cop. His track target also doesn't make sense: Why wouldn't he, as a tracker, target vezok to confirm his target? Targeting highroller doesn't matter because it would just mean he didn't take an action, not that he necessarily didn't do anything.
Actually, I got to ask Grape something.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Nevermind, get Vezok first.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
The GJ way path to no lynching:
775 could be a coincidence that Tom posted right afterwards, but his next few posts immediately throw Vez into his scumbasket. He seems way too sure that Vezok is scum claiming cop. And the other posts referencing Vez all read the same.
@Cantrip, thanks for the quick ISO.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Ultimately, I think it kind of has to be. Tracker + Cop-shot + Tom + Cheesecake's watch all feel like too much for a Mini (especially since at least LnGrrR is some kind of power). And as much as I might secretly hope he is, I don't think Tom is lying here because a) he didn't need to claim to push a lyncha and b) if Vezok flips town he's suddenly in the *****. I don't think there's much point leaving them both alive, since the odds of them both being town are really very low. So yeah, I'd like to vote Vezok, but I'm not going to put him in self hammer range.
@Riku: I get your point that there are tpyes of players who more passively look at things rather than actively sorting, but I think it's more of a spectrum rather than absolute, and I also think that even if HR was a totally passive player it's surprising that he hasn't got any town reads at all.
@Cantrip: I need to read your answers in depth. What I'm trying to do is take the info dump you gave me and sift through it for consistency of things like how and when reads were made, and if they make logical sense or if the analysis is opportunistic. It's quite a lot to read through when I really just want to write you off as town for effort (which I know I shouldn't). Would be useful to hear what anyone else thinkg about it.
@lngr: yes
By now everyone was on high alert. Agency contacts were proving hard to reach for many. Worse were the ones telling them to go into hiding and not providing information. Worst of all were the ones saying "I don't know who's behind his but you need to find out." Last thing any intelligence agent wants is an open ended mission, with no leads to find out who is trying to kill them.
Highroller(1): Cantripmancer
LnGrrrR(1): Highroller
Cantrip(1): Rhand
Vezokpriaka(4): Tom, LnGrrrR, Rumanshi, Vaimes
Not voting (3):GentlemanJohnny, Vezokpriaka, Ecophagy
With 10 alive it takes 6 votes to achieve a majority.
Deadline is on Thursday the 14th at 4pm EST.
Please alert me via pm or discord if there are any VC errors.
1) I didn't think it was permanent chat, just single-Night chat (or maybe that's what you meant by "permanent chat").
2) I really thought the Burner Phone ability was "...to chat with a player of their choosing" not just "...send a message to a player of their choosing."
3) Eh, it's still sorta skill-testing, but different skills and less entertaining overall, imo.
4) I actually found out that it was a message not a chat because I asked Grape on Discord if I opened a chat with Shadow and Shadow opened a chat with me would it be clear that two chats were opened and he was like, "lolwut there's no chats it's just a single message; this isn't Secret Neighbors 2" and I was like "...sad. I literally thought it was Secret Neighbors with a Twist."
Yeah, I can understand that, especially if you actually read the rules and knew it was a 1-shot messsage. I had a note that Riku's suggestion that there might be lots of abilities that used coins to be somewhat revolutionary because we already had a major central mechanic that used them. When I realized that it was a rather minor mechanic, his thought became a lot less revolutionary.
(In case it wasn't clear: that's not a complete ISO. I ran out of time. I will do more when I have a bit more opportunity, likely tomorrow.)
Addressing this first.
It was.
?
I'm not saying it wouldn't have utility.
But yeah, saying that you'd be mafia if you didn't use it is overkill. It's night one. I'm a vanilla town. What, precisely was I going to send, particularly when I'd pretty much already covered my position on the game Day 1?
I mean you say this: "Is it the most incredible thing ever and we should drop everything else and spend time figuring out who's going to send messages to whom? Of course not. But is it possibly something that scum didn't think through that we can use to expose their actions, lack of actions, and/or motivation/mindset? Absolutely." But you voted me because I didn't use it. So really it does seem to be more like the former for you, huh?
Wait so why would you post, "OH MY FREAKING GOSH. How are you not seeing my point??? The point isn't the messaging! It's the accountability!" when you were just going to unvote?
Why? (If it's a virtual vote, please explain.)
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
No, you'll note from my message to Eco that I planned on starting D2 talking about that mechanic, but when you posted that you specifically hadn't used a phone, I figured I'd wait and ask you about it first. Your choice didn't make any sense to me, so I figured that I had "exposed your actions, lack of actions, and or motivation/mindset" as scummy. I probably should have waited to see if anyone else claimed similarly, but I got excited and figured if I caught one scum, I was getting more mileage than I could have hoped for.
Because I think I'm right, and I want to convince you that I'm right, and I want to shake your mindset so that hopefully the next time you're presented with a similar situation, you think back to that really obnoxious conversation you had with that obnoxiously verbose guy in some game, and maybe you consider making choices that better reflect how I think town should act. (The snark in that response is tongue-in-cheek, but the underlying sentiment is sincere and intended to be constructive. I really do think I'm right here, and I really do want you/others to remember this kind of conversation and use the information gleaned when you/they approach future games...whether you/they decide I'm right or not, eh?)
The unvote wasn't because of your responses; it was because of other player's comments (such as GJ saying his thoughts immediately went to auction house/buying items and he planned to save his coins).
Game slowed WAAAAAAAY down (which I can totally understand because my own life got busier), but 4 hour and 9 hour breaks between posts is...eh, really slow. Can I get a non-drunk Rhand and slightly more verbose Vezok in here?
EWP: @LnG: I said I was down for a Vez vote once we were ready to end the Day. I'd like to hear Vezok's thoughts at least one more time, though, just in case Tom's playing us for fools.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
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My vote might as well be 90% Vezok, 10% Riku. I can't believe Vezok isn't exploding, based on what I said earlier about this same thing happening.
Eh, **** it. No one else is talking and at least one player is v/la to the 11th. Vezok should be jumping up and down and screaming at all of us if he is town, and is about to be mislynched again by a pseudo cc. Or, he is just a wolf.
Vote Vezok
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
The GJ way path to no lynching: