vezok was doomed the moment he claimed Cop. Scum got a mislynch D1, but vezok was never endgaming. Bussing is only natural in that position.
Same for GJ. They maybe could’ve gotten a mislynch, but GJ’s slot was tainted. Had to go.
Add into that tom being hush hush about his role when the scumteam seems like it needs another PR to NOT be a little too underpowered.
Not sure if I want to lynch him immediately, but I think holistically it makes sense. Behavior-wise he’s been super town imo.
I just...don't think there's any world where I lynch Tom over Rhand or Eco, ever. As for him claiming, if we don't lynch correctly toDay, then I think he should claim toMorrow (if he's still alive). But he's the one with the claim; I'm ok with him deciding whether he claims toDay or toMorrow.
@Tom: I feel like you've done a fine job of crumbing, with the possible exception of N2. Can you confirm whether you targeted GJ N2 or not?
So MAYBE scum!Tom saw Vezok chainsawing HR, thought it was bad play, and jumped on him for early credit. But he was the 2nd one on Vezok, then stays there until Vezok is in claim range, then after claiming continues to push? That's some turbo bussing, especially on (possibly) the strongest role they have.
I just don't see it. I am not that risky of a player, and I know some are, but that's like putting at least 9 of your 10 eggs in one basket.
Still think tom is being antitown, and doesn’t at all make me feel good about him going into endgame.
I have a hunch that if Eco is town, he’s going to get shot next. But scum can’t block his ability, so he should be on toDay’s wagon and give someone he really trusts an item - hopefully something that can clear another player.
I don’t believe Rhand or Cantrip are scum, but if there isn’t any option, I’m willing to compromise on one of them in case I’m just overthinking an otherwise easy game.
Actually, I have enough coins to send messages for the rest of the game, which I’ll start doing. I’ll move my vote only in the case of a No Lynch, or I believe tom’s claim.
Why did you counter Vezok for too much investigative power but think Eco is ok?
(Because he's scum, and either wants to keep his role a secret so town can't act around it, or he's a Goon who fakeclaimed power for towncred when his buddy suicided.)
Tunneling Rhand from literally Day 1 also comes off as scum-motivated, especially given the lack of "In light of recent flips, I still Rhand is scum with GJ and vezok because x, y, and z."
@Tom, did you ever reread Rhand? Why are you against claiming at this late stage, given that if you are town, you are near guaranteed to be the NK barring shenanigans?
@Tom, did you ever reread Rhand? Why are you against claiming at this late stage, given that if you are town, you are near guaranteed to be the NK barring shenanigans?
Oh! I know, I know, pick me!
(Ok, I'm not really going to pretend that I can fathom Tom's motivations, but I have my suspicions.)
Yup, nope, Rhand, then Eco if game is still going, then LnG.
Ready to vote whenever/let others vote to get a coin.
You really need to take another look at the game before you plug your ears and go la la la. I don't feel you've taken a honest effort at evaluating the possibility I raised.
@Cantrip, feel free to share Are you guessing that he is vanilla but sure Vezok was scum and so false claimed, and now is keeping up the charade in order to draw a NK?
I'll also take another look at Rhand, but I kind of struggle to see the Rhand/GJ thing as scum, in addition to Rhand's reaction to tom thinking the same thing as him about GJ being vanilla.
@Cantrip, feel free to share Are you guessing that he is vanilla but sure Vezok was scum and so false claimed, and now is keeping up the charade in order to draw a NK?
I certainly hope not, because everyone in this game should know better than to fakeclaim power as a vanilla. That ends in tragedy 99% of the time.
You really need to take another look at the game before you plug your ears and go la la la. I don't feel you've taken a honest effort at evaluating the possibility I raised.
Actually, I've been playing around with a scum!Tom tinfoil since he included Shadow in his end of D1 T/S list. I've given it quite a bit of thought already. It would actually help explain some of Vez and GJ's rage/frustration (Vez because buddy!Tom decided to counterclaim him when an actual town counterclaim seemed unlikely; GJ because he got caught the Night after buddy!Tom made the game extra hard for them (plus allowing GJ to wifom it up with the way he talks about Tom)). I just...don't feel like it's likely. All of Tom's posts from the point Vez claimed fit with what I would expect from town!Tom. I'm not sure that he's done anything outside his scumrange, but I don't honestly know if I know Tom's scumrange.
Now, I could put in a lot of effort now to try to convince you that Tom's town and we should lynch Rhand, but one scum can't kill Tom AND me AND you toNight (not that killing either you OR me would be a good choice because PoE), so even if I'm wrong, there will be another chance for at least one of us to reassess. Sorry if it feels like the lazy path; maybe it is. I still plan on looking at some interactions, but I'd be fine ending the Day, too.
@LnG: Nah, ball's in Tom's court on his claim/lack/reasons, at least until we have a D5.
Rhand when Tom counterclaimed Vezok: "I don't like semi-counterclaims and I think we need all the facts before we can make decide if there is too much investigative power in the game."
Also Rhand when I claim: "The amount of investigative power [with tom still unclaimed] is literally impossible vote eco".
There's a very obvious reason for a difference in motivation there.
@Vaimes: I appreciate your drive to evaluate all possibilities and I agree with the Rhand thing like I said at the start of D2, but do you really think the counterclaim was a coordinated bus? Like I could just about buy the "tom kills his buddy because they agree cop is a doomed claim", but do they really do it while a) claiming a blue check on Riku and b) GJ trying really hard to get Vezok to defend himself before reluctantly putting the last vote on him? It only works if Tom just shat all over his buddies, which seems entirely unnecessary at the state there were in at the time.
Also I'm definitely happy to make sure I'm on the lynch today to give an item out. I'm even prepared to take suggestions from everyone as to whom I should target.
@Cantripmancer: I thought I made it pretty obvious I needed coins without stating it ouright, but people were very keen to get the votes down and I wasn't around to get an early vote on the wagon.
Actually, I've been playing around with a scum!Tom tinfoil since he included Shadow in his end of D1 T/S list. I've given it quite a bit of thought already. It would actually help explain some of Vez and GJ's rage/frustration (Vez because buddy!Tom decided to counterclaim him when an actual town counterclaim seemed unlikely; GJ because he got caught the Night after buddy!Tom made the game extra hard for them (plus allowing GJ to wifom it up with the way he talks about Tom)). I just...don't feel like it's likely. All of Tom's posts from the point Vez claimed fit with what I would expect from town!Tom. I'm not sure that he's done anything outside his scumrange, but I don't honestly know if I know Tom's scumrange.
Now, I could put in a lot of effort now to try to convince you that Tom's town and we should lynch Rhand, but one scum can't kill Tom AND me AND you toNight (not that killing either you OR me would be a good choice because PoE), so even if I'm wrong, there will be another chance for at least one of us to reassess. Sorry if it feels like the lazy path; maybe it is. I still plan on looking at some interactions, but I'd be fine ending the Day, too.
@LnG: Nah, ball's in Tom's court on his claim/lack/reasons, at least until we have a D5.
Well, regardless of who's right, I'm glad this is at least something you considered.
Really, the only major red flag is the lack of transparency on his part, which is whatever if he dies. I just feel like it leaves him a lot more wiggle room if he is actually scum, since he isn't as tied down.
Rhand when Tom counterclaimed Vezok: "I don't like semi-counterclaims and I think we need all the facts before we can make decide if there is too much investigative power in the game."
Also Rhand when I claim: "The amount of investigative power [with tom still unclaimed] is literally impossible vote eco".
There's a very obvious reason for a difference in motivation there.
@Vaimes: I appreciate your drive to evaluate all possibilities and I agree with the Rhand thing like I said at the start of D2, but do you really think the counterclaim was a coordinated bus? Like I could just about buy the "tom kills his buddy because they agree cop is a doomed claim", but do they really do it while a) claiming a blue check on Riku and b) GJ trying really hard to get Vezok to defend himself before reluctantly putting the last vote on him? It only works if Tom just shat all over his buddies, which seems entirely unnecessary at the state there were in at the time.
Also I'm definitely happy to make sure I'm on the lynch today to give an item out. I'm even prepared to take suggestions from everyone as to whom I should target.
@Cantripmancer: I thought I made it pretty obvious I needed coins without stating it ouright, but people were very keen to get the votes down and I wasn't around to get an early vote on the wagon.
I'm in a weird spot where I believe Rhand's points on you, and the points on Rhand, but I don't really want to lynch either of you. Feels bad.
I wouldn't consider it completely unlikely that they decided it was the best path. vezok had maybe a maximum of two Days before he went down, and getting enough towncred to cruise to endgame off of that is way better than trying to keep him alive IMO. And as for checking Riku, I dunno, they definitely had to go with a green check or else the facade would end immediately upon mislynch. Riku already softclaimed so it didn't really change the gamestate much.
Uhhh I need to check again because I don't think GJ "reluctantly put the last vote on him." vezok self-hammered.
Ohhh, right. They greenchecked Riku because vezok roleblocked him, and had to have a reason for targeting Riku in case there was another Tracker/Watcher.
I kinda think Cantrip should get the item. Vaimes is pretty much viewed as solid town and a likely NK, as is Tom and Eco (if town). Giving it to Tom doesn't make sense in the very specific game state where Tom is town and continues to live, as he couldn't use the item and his ability.
Tom and Eco should both be on the wagon, as both have claimed they need coins. No one else needs coins, I believe.
Rhand still scum because his day 1 is just how scum treat me doing this sort of thing. Historically, in comparison to others this game, and differently than rhand usually.
Call it a tunnel if you want, but ive been looking for something to change my mind and nothing has. Theres some interactions with vez that i saw lngrr thinks is a good look but it doesnt look like anything that's would even need faked to me. And hes just been generally more interested in lynchability than scuminess.
Lngrr scum because i was quite sure was the gifter/inventor until today. So i guess im in a little bit of flux.
Eco scum in the world where gjs frustration post was strategic. Though im not actually sure the setup makes sense with just me and ruma.
@Tom, look back over the Vezok/Rhand interactions. It doesn't look wolf/wolf to me. For instance, when Vezok voted Rhand near end of D1, do you think it was legit or distancing knowing that Rhand wouldnt be the vote that Day?
I think the attack from Vezok on Rhand was real. I don't see Vezok jumping on Rhand AND GJ.
But you didn't really provide many concrete reasons (as "concrete" as any reason in this game can be, of course). You ask Tom to look at their interactions and ask if he thinks it was legit or distancing, you ask me if I think it was scum theatre, and you say you don't think scum!Vez would jump on both buddies early game. Can you go into more detail as to how you drew those conclusions?
Sleepycheesecake seems worse and worse. Rhand too. Highroller is straight town. Tom also. I find him really transparent compared to his usual game.
Gj's interactions with Vaimes feel really forced. If he thinks vaimes is scum and my slot is also scum there is no way you convince him to join the lurker wagon. Seems really disingineous.
I think I'm somewhere around.
Cantrip/tom/highroller town
Eco/shadow townie
Riku more town than neutral
Vaimes neutral
Gj/lrrrgr scummy
Sleepycheesecake/rhand scum
Gj and lrrrgr should not be on the same position, but I have no idea how to split them. I liked a bit of the last posts from lrrgr which was surprising. It looked like trying to pocket tom, but at the same time it was too verbose to not look like a real defense on a slot he considers town or at least not scum for the reasons presented.
vote rhand
I'd actually vote for cheesecake, but rhand seems to have more steam. Maybe I'll switch.
Look at this. It just doesn't look like a way a scumbuddy buses to me. I would think if Rhand was scum, he would vote Cheesecake while leaving the Rhand vote open.
Plus, that's just... way too much bussing. Scum!Vezok bussing scum!GJ and scum!Rhand? I don't know. I need other people to bounce reads and ideas off of.
I had that thought, too (see my 1134), but I'm also still trying to make sense of 423, 426, and 427. Like...why did Vez push SO hard against Rhand for Shadow's attack on HR, and why did Rhand just shrug and vote Tom?
tom scumtell: refusing to re-evaluate, or having stagnant reads that he never cares to explain after several flips. Literally just happened in Ghostbusters.
You know, I'm happier to be wrong on Rhand and win the game, but you're not giving any reasons as to why Rhand is town. Eco points out the differences in Rhand's responses to Vez's claim and Eco's claim and you just say you believe his points on Rhand (and Rhand's points on Eco) but don't want to lynch either of them. I post elements I think point to Rhand being scum and you go #TeamRhand. Going back in your recent ISO, all I'm really seeing is 1259 where you vote LnG (before LnG's claim) saying that Rhand doesn't claim Rich VT when GJ flipped Rich Vanilla Goon. How do you feel about that now that there are three Rich VT claims floating about? I know you started the Day towning Rhand because you no longer believed Rhand's indication that he knew GJ's role was scum theatre.
Other than that, why don't you think Rhand is scum?
@Tom: I'm trying to ask without asking, even though it's really obnoxious to dance around things: how sure are you on that PoE?
tom scumtell: refusing to re-evaluate, or having stagnant reads that he never cares to explain after several flips. Literally just happened in Ghostbusters.
Yeah, but scum!Tom would be in a completely different position here since a) he's the last scum, and b) he's claimed an investigative and has been doing [redacted]. At some point he's going to run out of options.
Can you take a step back for a moment? Is it possible that you're so zoned in on Tom simply because of Ghostbusters?
I don’t think I’m acting out of Ghostbuster saltiness. I spent most of this game with a strong townread on tom.
tom is the least likely person to get lynched in this game. I believe that as long as he controls the flow of information (since he’s claiming an info role), he can win this game. Especially when there’s people like you who already have the next three lynches decided.
In town!tom worlds, scum already knows he’s an info role, so it’s not like hiding the specific role matters.
Whereas keeping his role, targets, and mindset hidden is something I see as potentially scum-motivated.
Does anyone feel strongly about tom NOT claiming?
vezok was doomed the moment he claimed Cop. Scum got a mislynch D1, but vezok was never endgaming. Bussing is only natural in that position.
Same for GJ. They maybe could’ve gotten a mislynch, but GJ’s slot was tainted. Had to go.
Add into that tom being hush hush about his role when the scumteam seems like it needs another PR to NOT be a little too underpowered.
Not sure if I want to lynch him immediately, but I think holistically it makes sense. Behavior-wise he’s been super town imo.
@Tom: I feel like you've done a fine job of crumbing, with the possible exception of N2. Can you confirm whether you targeted GJ N2 or not?
I just don't see it. I am not that risky of a player, and I know some are, but that's like putting at least 9 of your 10 eggs in one basket.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
POE stands
Still think tom is being antitown, and doesn’t at all make me feel good about him going into endgame.
I have a hunch that if Eco is town, he’s going to get shot next. But scum can’t block his ability, so he should be on toDay’s wagon and give someone he really trusts an item - hopefully something that can clear another player.
I don’t believe Rhand or Cantrip are scum, but if there isn’t any option, I’m willing to compromise on one of them in case I’m just overthinking an otherwise easy game.
Why did you counter Vezok for too much investigative power but think Eco is ok?
Vote tom
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Ready to vote whenever/let others vote to get a coin.
(Ok, I'm not really going to pretend that I can fathom Tom's motivations, but I have my suspicions.)
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Now, I could put in a lot of effort now to try to convince you that Tom's town and we should lynch Rhand, but one scum can't kill Tom AND me AND you toNight (not that killing either you OR me would be a good choice because PoE), so even if I'm wrong, there will be another chance for at least one of us to reassess. Sorry if it feels like the lazy path; maybe it is. I still plan on looking at some interactions, but I'd be fine ending the Day, too.
@LnG: Nah, ball's in Tom's court on his claim/lack/reasons, at least until we have a D5.
Also Rhand when I claim: "The amount of investigative power [with tom still unclaimed] is literally impossible vote eco".
There's a very obvious reason for a difference in motivation there.
@Vaimes: I appreciate your drive to evaluate all possibilities and I agree with the Rhand thing like I said at the start of D2, but do you really think the counterclaim was a coordinated bus? Like I could just about buy the "tom kills his buddy because they agree cop is a doomed claim", but do they really do it while a) claiming a blue check on Riku and b) GJ trying really hard to get Vezok to defend himself before reluctantly putting the last vote on him? It only works if Tom just shat all over his buddies, which seems entirely unnecessary at the state there were in at the time.
Also I'm definitely happy to make sure I'm on the lynch today to give an item out. I'm even prepared to take suggestions from everyone as to whom I should target.
@Cantripmancer: I thought I made it pretty obvious I needed coins without stating it ouright, but people were very keen to get the votes down and I wasn't around to get an early vote on the wagon.
I looked at Eco's posts and then got lazy. Well, regardless of who's right, I'm glad this is at least something you considered.
Really, the only major red flag is the lack of transparency on his part, which is whatever if he dies. I just feel like it leaves him a lot more wiggle room if he is actually scum, since he isn't as tied down. I'm in a weird spot where I believe Rhand's points on you, and the points on Rhand, but I don't really want to lynch either of you. Feels bad.
I wouldn't consider it completely unlikely that they decided it was the best path. vezok had maybe a maximum of two Days before he went down, and getting enough towncred to cruise to endgame off of that is way better than trying to keep him alive IMO. And as for checking Riku, I dunno, they definitely had to go with a green check or else the facade would end immediately upon mislynch. Riku already softclaimed so it didn't really change the gamestate much.
Uhhh I need to check again because I don't think GJ "reluctantly put the last vote on him." vezok self-hammered.
Maybe we do need to lynch Rhand.
Kinda think he's town, but not enough to try and strongarm everyone onto tom.
We can proceed to Night at everyone's earliest convenience.
Tom and Eco should both be on the wagon, as both have claimed they need coins. No one else needs coins, I believe.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Call it a tunnel if you want, but ive been looking for something to change my mind and nothing has. Theres some interactions with vez that i saw lngrr thinks is a good look but it doesnt look like anything that's would even need faked to me. And hes just been generally more interested in lynchability than scuminess.
Lngrr scum because i was quite sure was the gifter/inventor until today. So i guess im in a little bit of flux.
Eco scum in the world where gjs frustration post was strategic. Though im not actually sure the setup makes sense with just me and ruma.
But from posts alone, i just think its rhand.
But you didn't really provide many concrete reasons (as "concrete" as any reason in this game can be, of course). You ask Tom to look at their interactions and ask if he thinks it was legit or distancing, you ask me if I think it was scum theatre, and you say you don't think scum!Vez would jump on both buddies early game. Can you go into more detail as to how you drew those conclusions?
Look at this. It just doesn't look like a way a scumbuddy buses to me. I would think if Rhand was scum, he would vote Cheesecake while leaving the Rhand vote open.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
I really think Rhand/Cantrip/Eco/LnGR are town.
If I had to lynch one of them, it’d be Eco because lolbalance, but that’s literally it.
Other than that, why don't you think Rhand is scum?
@Tom: I'm trying to ask without asking, even though it's really obnoxious to dance around things: how sure are you on that PoE?
Right now I’m just doing some empty gloating.
And I don’t think the last scum PR would start with a coin. That’s kind of eh, unless it’s a super mild role?
Can you take a step back for a moment? Is it possible that you're so zoned in on Tom simply because of Ghostbusters?
tom is the least likely person to get lynched in this game. I believe that as long as he controls the flow of information (since he’s claiming an info role), he can win this game. Especially when there’s people like you who already have the next three lynches decided.
Can you see why I would be worried?
I don’t want to lynch Rhand, but if tom is scum and this is the only road that will lead to his exposure, carry on.
And if Rhand flips scum, lolme and gg.
@Vaimes: So 1263/1265 is scum theatre?