I’m just allergic to tom calling me “outed scum” and vezok “certainly scum”.
That’s totally misplaced bravado on early D1 and I think sign of a mindset that isn’t town.
I would prefer one of their flips first.
rhand scum gor even implying (false?) bravado is anywhere close to indicative for me (or vezok)
I can't assume he is serious if he read through and got you AND shadow is w/w.
gj scum because he didnt even do that
Thoughts up to now: shadow and Lgrrr are both scum.
I mean, he clearly did. Yes, his more recent read list backtracked and switched to he thinks lngree baited a town Shadow to claim, but come on tom....really?
i mean you said "read through and got..." when it was actually "read through the first 3 pages and got"
Is there something in those pages that makes that not believable?
Unless Vezok thought shadow and lngrr were putting on some lovely wolf theatre, I don't know how vezok could read through the little powwah and think they are both wolves.
Page 3 was that whole rolefishing/shadow claim/cantrip/eco/me powwah. And from that, he got that all three of the wolves were talkign to cantrip and eco AT THAT TIME (because against, he does backtrack)
tom, you aren't this slow. My point is pretty ******* clear. I might have even said something on that page that shadow/lngrr are never w/w. I don't think vezok read that page honestly, or clearly has an agenda. The read doesn't feel real, because I can't understand how he got to that conclusion.
That's on you, not on me. I explained in my post that I thought lgrrrnrr made the rolefish without coaching and shadow was trying to calm him down or move him away from that thought, but lrrr doubled down. Shadow's claim is irrelevant for the discussion.
Do you understand that if I think a scum is coaching another scum in thread they both have to be scum?
It's a simple thought. I don't really know how to explain differently and I have no idea how you don't believe I could arrive at this conclusion.
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shadow scum for his main push being (essentially) flavor and omgus
Tom scum for thinking my push is based on flavor or omgus.
(Its mindset)
so highroller scum for mindset behind pushing you and mindset behind not flavorgaming?
If you’re going to go the omgus route, I dug into highroller and then he decided to suspect me, not the other way around.
And it’s the mindset change from “I think massclaim and flavor claim are towns best tool” to “I don’t know the flavor, guess it won’t work/isnt worth pursuing.”
“I’m moving GJ up on my list”
*Puts GJ in bottom 3*
What?
Gotta read the whole post, Shadow. Yes, he moved up, but then moved back down. That break in my list between GJ and Rhand? That's the line between "Leaning Scum" and "Likely Scum".
@Cantrip as far as whether I thought claiming was the best course of action; yes, and if you aren’t getting why, then I can’t help you get there today.
Frozen? Anyone have experience with scum!Highroller, or are we just gonna keep riding the Banned Mafia pony?
Iirc, Highroller had only played one game prior to Banned and it was several years ago. Can't remember which one/his alignment, so... @Highroller: Can you point us to any of your scum games?
Quote from Vaimes »
Cantrip, do you always do the eh thing? I cannot for the life of me recall you doing it in.............damn I already forgot the game and shadow literally just mentioned it.
What eh thing? I mean...I use the word from time to time...?
I wanted to make a "your mom's not real" joke, but I generally don't like those so instead I'm just going to mention it so that everyone knows I could be witty and edgy if I wanted to be, but will also realize that I'm obviously also classy.
I said I'd elaborate when I returned.
Town
Ecophagy - Sincere inquiries, calm demeanor, asking good questions.
tomsloger - *I* feel like he's clearly communicating reads and taking stances. Possible that he's creating a smokescreen to hide behind later, but it doesn't feel that way. Plus Tom doesn't hide. Plus he's funny. I mean, have you SEEN that rainbow read list???
LnGrrrR - Lean town. My comment about the pocketing attempts that were failing should have pointed out that 158/185 would have been the perfect time for scum!LnG to stop trying to pocket (because it obv wasn't working) and turn on me. He didn't, even though it would have been fairly easy and unquestioned. Likely town.
[null range]
Vaimes - Plenty of posts, but I'm still not getting a strong feel from him. Near the top because he's at least interacting.
Riku - Really like the playfulness and interaction from RVS, but, as noted by practically everyone, that feeling is fading fast.
Highroller - Not enough content at that time, a little more now, slight town feel.
vezokpiraka - At the time of this list, no content. Bottom of nulls.
[/null range]
SleepyCheesecake - I know he's off-base because he's attacking me (and the things he's attacking me for feel like bad arguments, but that could be a meta thing), 18 felt like bad attempt at derp-clear, similarly 51 felt like an attempt to be "carefree town" ("didn't even look at my flavor"). On the plus side, he's asking questions and interacting....although...hmm. That's odd. I'll explain what I find odd at the end of this post.
Gentleman Johnny - Was here, I thought on the mindset response that I mentioned that would have moved him up with LnG above the nulls, but then I found additional concerns, so he moved back down. Almost put him above Cheesecake, but felt like Cheesecake was being more solvey, so left him here.
Rhand - [Redacted a little longer]
Shadowlancerx - His posting seems "fine", but I haven't gotten any strong town vibes yet, which is concerning, and I am having a really hard time reconciling his "HEY VANILLA TOWN HERE" post, because I feel like I know how he thinks. I'm unsettled by his choices, and knowing how strong a player he is, I think it's indicative. Scum
In fact, in the world you just created, Rhand can only be a wolf if both me and tom are also wolves. That's the only real reason you gave to justify voting him.
Can you elaborate on the bolded? I'm not seeing the logic that got you there.
Vez is technically correct (the best kind of correct) in that highroller knows to hold back personally, but it doesn’t change the fact that he’s gone from advocating mass claim, to dismissing any sort of claim based on his own flavor being made up. It doesn’t track.
I think this is a bad attack that ignores the possibility that players might re-evaluate their strategy after a game ends.
Quote from Shadow »
Additionally, he’s seemed very interested in just discrediting me and pushing the conversation in a different direction.
Will you point me at the specific post parts where you see this? I felt like most of his responses have been pretty straight-forward (with the exception of him calling Cheesecake's questions to him "snide", which I didn't feel at all).
Yeah, it can be a world. I don’t really have an opinion on whether or not it is yet, I want to see Highroller flip though.
I still don't see why you feel so strongly about HR with as little content as he's provided. (And yes, I know that one of your arguments is that town!HR would produce more content.) I could accept you saying "I have a strong scumread on HR and hey HR, engage with me so I can figure it out", but you haven't even asked HR a question. He's responding and engaging with you and asking questions, but you're just telling the thread that you don't agree with his responses and continuing to call him scum. Why aren't you engaging with your supposed primary suspect in order to figure him out?
In a similar vein...
Regarding Cheesecake. As I was reviewing my notes, I noticed something. Cheesecake hasn't asked me a single question, despite claiming I'm his highest scumread. The closest he's come is:
wish i had read from his most recent post backward looking at lngr interactions, because it wasn't until the most recent post that it at all made sense for him to have that read based on previous posts
@LnG: Ok, you can move up on the read list, too. Continuous pocket attempts aside, which weren't swaying me, I'm pretty sure scum would have leaped at the opportunity I afforded with 158 and 185 to jump down my throat. You didn't.
not sure if this does a whole lot for me, considering he was claiming lngr was trying to pocket him, why would he think he'd jump down his throat?
one thing of note when combing through his iso a bit is that cantrip is absolutely the type of player i'm going to struggle to read as genuine, almost every post has an extra phrase or an emote or something that just looks 100% fake
might need to do some meta diving, but was hoping i'd not have to do that on an unfamiliarish site with software that isn't wonderful
He attacks me on multiple fronts, but never actually asks me to explain my choices, give reads on other players...nothing (and yes, he's asking lots of other players those things). Twice he's mentioned that it could just be meta and he "might have to do some meta diving", but has also noted reluctance, and I don't think he ever plans on doing that. Why aren't you engaging with me and trying to figure me out if I'm your primary suspect?
Vote: shadowlancerx
But only because I feel like he's the more dangerous of the two. I'm fine voting Cheesecake, too, as I'm pretty sure they're both scum. Neither one is making ANY attempt to solve their primary scumread.
Highroller is still mostly null for me. Seems like he's way too preoccupied with the suspicion thrown his way that would organically work itself out just by getting up to speed and commenting on gamestate as a whole.
So, in the context of this attack, in order of scumminess, Cheesecake, Rhand, Vaimes.
OK, so in the context of your read list that you posted earlier, you would essentially be moving Cheesecake down, Rhand stays fairly close to the bottom, and Vaimes might stay roughly where he is in quite a middling position. Is that a fair assessment?
Could you then please explain if you are still happy with your vote on GJ?
They were definitely strong reads for that stage of the day, and Ruma is the only that’s waning, but not enough to drop off the list.
As far as rule of three, as scum I always actively subvert that because it’s one of the few decently strong ways to read most scum post flip.
What are your current feelings on Vaimes?
Well I guess at least we know when you flip scum we can trust you can clear four townies then
Vaimes seems fine to me so far. He's avoided both the Vaimes scum tells of bottom posting and breaking down in tears, and he's had some thoughts that I agree with.
He gets in here, claimed his flavor, and then says “oh no, I guess because the flavor is made up that won’t work,” and then drops it entirely. For real? He doesn’t even try and get something going, he doesn’t even speculate on anything, or even bring up mass claim and his reasons why.
Pretty sure he rolled scum and doesn’t actually want to push that angle.
I am very underwhelmed with this line of attack. I get the point, but it seems pretty tenuous to chase a low-poster because they didn't call for a mass claim after a single data point in a game where they directly benefitted from the mass claim by it turning on their role. I also think that a Shadow who was genuninely interested in solving would have saved the vote (or at least, the explanation of the vote) until HR had actually posted content to better inform the read. Instead, Shadow's put HR completely on the defensive and is acting like HR's defensiveness and lack of content in the face of accusations is some sort of slam dunk tell.
++++++++
I was going to ask Cantrip why he hadn't moved his vote after his previous reads list, but I ate dinner and he sniped me.
Can you elaborate on the bolded? I'm not seeing the logic that got you there.
I admittedly didn't notice 416 where he separates Shadow from lngrrr, I was responding a post at a time. It was mostly sloppy on my end. The point I was trying to conceive is based on his early read, I didn't understand where he is getting a vote on rhand, rather than myself or lngrrr. My issue was his intro didn't match with ending vote (although he later admittedly goes into it with Rhand more directly). I thought after reading his list, he was going to end elsewhere, and then ends in Rhand/cheese, and puts me and lngrrr as t/w (if I understoof that correctly)
Cantrip, I notice you are doing a lot of questioning, but having to drag out current reads from you is irratating. I get why you moved back, I don't particularly like the way you did it. 389 feels like you are trying really hard to show a "stream of consciousness".
Use of "tone" is pretty nai and pretty standard on mu. The point to cheesecake that I was making was I don't like the highroller slot at that point (and nothing has really changed).
As far as you other question, since it kind of prescribes to it: pure tone = super town sounding. I can't describe you how, just read his posts. If he has an agenda, I can't possibly find it. I guess if there was an emotion I was looking for, I would describe it as "Earnest".
Also, of note OOG, I don't mind snark. Lord knows I can be smug and snarky. I just don't want to play 20 questions to figure ***** out. Like, when you wanted me to ask you your reasons: I wasn't expecting a ton of reasons at the time, I just assumed you didn't like my tone for some reason OR you liked everyone else's better. The highest post thing was a joke, because when you posted that list of three out, I was confused since it seemed it was all the active players, so I double checked the iso just to make sure.
Quote from Cantrip »
@Shadow: Remind me to ask you about this later:
This in particular, as I was rereading it, doesn't feel like something you way say to your top wolf read.
Vaimes seems fine to me so far. He's avoided both the Vaimes scum tells of bottom posting and breaking down in tears, and he's had some thoughts that I agree with.
I would be careful with that. He isn't that high of a poster, and it could be he is surrounded by more heavier posters.
That's pretty terrible mafia play, because even if they are town and have 100% accuracy that game, they aren't doing anything to convince other townies to follow that.
i see no value in questioning people i think are scum, especially in long phase games like this - you have effectively unlimited time to prepare a response, and it's not going to actually tell me anything beyond feed into a feedback loop chain of confirmation bias
i do read posts, and i do re-evaluate based on new information, but that information has to be seeing you think critically, try to solve, and do things i think make you town
i just have a very, very strong personal distaste for two people arguing back and forth about why one of them is scum, and think it serves no purpose but to solidify the read in the direction they were already going
That's pretty terrible mafia play, because even if they are town and have 100% accuracy that game, they aren't doing anything to convince other townies to follow that.
consider me a terrible player then
i'll engage with people i think are town, and with people i'm not sure on alignment yet, and talk to them about the people i wish to talk about, but not like i'm going to convince my wolf reads to vote themselves, right?
Posting ISO's or even just show casing why you think they are scum is also a thing. Famous saying on MU: Good town players find wolves. Great town players get other people to vote wolves.
@Eco, yeah, that sounds about right. Actually, my vote on GJ is still from RVS. I should probably change that. Low hanging fruit and all but
Vote Riku
Maybe that will get him to do something.
This game is pretty interesting. Usually by this point I feel like I have one person who I'm confident is scum (note: I'm often wrong), but I have a lot of leans this game. Maybe I'm out of practice.
Vaimes seems fine to me so far. He's avoided both the Vaimes scum tells of bottom posting and breaking down in tears, and he's had some thoughts that I agree with.
I would be careful with that. He isn't that high of a poster, and it could be he is surrounded by more heavier posters.
Since when? I’d argue in most of my (town) games I post too much. I completely flooded the thread in Friends & Enemies.
Posting ISO's or even just show casing why you think they are scum is also a thing. Famous saying on MU: Good town players find wolves. Great town players get other people to vote wolves.
Cheesecake, what do you think of Vezok?
it's early d1. very long phases. more interested in letting people play their games and see where things go for now than try and herd cats to the target i want, especially when i'm capable of being wrong early on d1. i will 100% fight against a lynch on a town read, and if i do that, the lynch will end up on someone i don't think is town, which is good enough for me, especially d1
with regards to vezok, i dunno, conflicted a bit
his reads are almost a literal mirror of mine, and i disagree with almost literally everything he has said
i just can't tell if that's alignment indicative or not yet, as he reminds me of a certain archetype of player
like, look at this:
Cantrip/tom/highroller town
Eco/shadow townie
Riku more town than neutral
Vaimes neutral
Gj/lrrrgr scummy
Sleepycheesecake/rhand scum
his 3 highest town reads are my 3 lowest reads right now
i also think his 4 lowest scum reads are all town
and even vaimes is my top town read
just want to see him post more and try and figure out alignments after the catchup to see if they are genuine reads and how they evolve vs. a wolf just blatantly firing out bad reads
(there's also the chance that i'm just wrong, but the fact that our reads are almost literally inverted makes me kind of spin my head around in a circle)
Could people strongly townreading eco please explain their reads in non ethereal ways?
@cantrip: I don’t feel like engaging with highroller would be productive. Wrt where he’s trying to push the conversation to the frivolous, 408 and 415 are both hyper focused on the flavor, along with “do you know who my character is?” line, which is a sidestep of the reason I actually think he’s scum. I don’t care about the flavor, I care that he suddenly doesn’t have any sort of desire to push for claims, which is directly contrasting how he says he approaches the game and how the town should win.
To back up the his previous post before that, 401, he’s attempting to presume that I actually had no reason for voting him, and planned to make something up even though I’d already given my explanation at that point.
And all three of those posts are written to cast heavy shade on me, without even considering approaching me on it. It’s exactly the kind of attitude that’s meant to completely turn the tables on me, not meant to figure out my alignment at all.
@GJ: I follow with isoing, and breaking down what your scum reads say and do, but I would qualify engaging them as a back and forth dialogue, which I do find useful in a lot of scenarios, but sometimes it isn’t productive at all. I would guess that Vaimes is referring to the dialogue when he says not engaging scum reads is fine.
Also, Vaimes isn’t a player you can volume clear until later in the game.
Could people strongly townreading eco please explain their reads in non ethereal ways?
@cantrip: I don’t feel like engaging with highroller would be productive. Wrt where he’s trying to push the conversation to the frivolous, 408 and 415 are both hyper focused on the flavor, along with “do you know who my character is?” line, which is a sidestep of the reason I actually think he’s scum. I don’t care about the flavor, I care that he suddenly doesn’t have any sort of desire to push for claims, which is directly contrasting how he says he approaches the game and how the town should win.
To back up the his previous post before that, 401, he’s attempting to presume that I actually had no reason for voting him, and planned to make something up even though I’d already given my explanation at that point.
And all three of those posts are written to cast heavy shade on me, without even considering approaching me on it. It’s exactly the kind of attitude that’s meant to completely turn the tables on me, not meant to figure out my alignment at all.
@GJ: I follow with isoing, and breaking down what your scum reads say and do, but I would qualify engaging them as a back and forth dialogue, which I do find useful in a lot of scenarios, but sometimes it isn’t productive at all. I would guess that Vaimes is referring to the dialogue when he says not engaging scum reads is fine.
Also, Vaimes isn’t a player you can volume clear until later in the game.
I agree, yes, and you totally can volume clear me right now.
I don't completely hate Vezok's entrance. I mean, more posts and detail are required obviously, but I don't really expect scum to replace in and immediately pick up a hard defense of Highroller. It would be a million times easier and less controvesial to just list HR as null or support the wagon or whatever.
I don't completely hate Vezok's entrance. I mean, more posts and detail are required obviously, but I don't really expect scum to replace in and immediately pick up a hard defense of Highroller. It would be a million times easier and less controvesial to just list HR as null or support the wagon or whatever.
sort of what i've been rolling around in my head, yeah
i disagree with almost literally everything they say, but it does feel like they actually believe what they're saying
do you have any experience with them as a wolf in previous games? basically, is this kind of confidence/assertiveness in line with what they're capable of doing as scum
do you think tom's (lack) of volume is alignment indicative, or is it tied to the stupid gimmick, where he's incapable of finding something to call scummy in every post enough to actually post naturally/at full volume?
do you have any experience with them as a wolf in previous games? basically, is this kind of confidence/assertiveness in line with what they're capable of doing as scum
Last time I played with them as scum was in the Secret Neighbours Micro where I very quickly got him lynched because he was being overly non-commital and passive. So that's obviously not what's happened here, which is a pretty good look for Vezok.
also, eco, if you had a gun with 3 bullets and you had to fire them one after the other with no flips happening, who would you shoot to hit at least 2 wolves? associative logic being used is reasonable in that case
Cantrip, I notice you are doing a lot of questioning, but having to drag out current reads from you is irratating. I get why you moved back, I don't particularly like the way you did it. 389 feels like you are trying really hard to show a "stream of consciousness".
...I didn't think anyone was having to drag reads out of me other than you and that was only because I was amused that you would attack my proposed scumteam but not question why. Regardless, I 100% do NOT mean to irritate beyond "mildly". Sorry.
As for your comment on my 389, I find it interesting that both you and HR get "try hard" vibes. I mean, *I* know I'm sincere (and yes, it was very stream of consciousness; that's not unusual for me), so it's weird to be told "this feels fake", by multiple people, none the less.
Quote from GJ »
As far as you other question, since it kind of prescribes to it: pure tone = super town sounding. I can't describe you how, just read his posts. If he has an agenda, I can't possibly find it. I guess if there was an emotion I was looking for, I would describe it as "Earnest".
Eh, maybe I just have OMGUS blinders on because he's attacking me, then? Dunno. I'm not feeling it yet.
Quote from GJ »
Also, of note OOG, I don't mind snark. Lord knows I can be smug and snarky. I just don't want to play 20 questions to figure ***** out. Like, when you wanted me to ask you your reasons: I wasn't expecting a ton of reasons at the time, I just assumed you didn't like my tone for some reason OR you liked everyone else's better. The highest post thing was a joke, because when you posted that list of three out, I was confused since it seemed it was all the active players, so I double checked the iso just to make sure.
I figured it was (at least mostly) a joke, possibly fronting a shade attempt. As for 20 questions...I have scumhunting methods (good or bad, they're how I play) that often rely on timing of responses, responses to how I ask a question, responses to how I DON'T ask a question, etc., so sometimes I take the scenic route because it's the only way I can think of to figure someone out. When I slow-rolled you I was trying a progression:
1) Wow, GJ doesn't like that scum team and chose to maybe shade me with a snarky comment about high posters.
2) I told GJ that I had concrete specific reasons for suspecting all three (including him), and instead of asking about them (since I didn't volunteer them), he said he'd just make assumptions. Why wouldn't he be curious if I outright say I have specifics?
3) Ok, I called him out on his lack of curiosity and he finally asked. How will he react if I slow-roll him now?
Your response was mild irritation with encouragement to me to take action, which felt like a good reaction. So...I'll try not to play 20 Questions, but 3-4 Questions is sorta...how I play. Sorry.
Quote from GJ »
Quote from Cantrip »
@Shadow: Remind me to ask you about this later:
This in particular, as I was rereading it, doesn't feel like something you way say to your top wolf read.
Actually, it is, but I absolutely won't go into it yet.
i see no value in questioning people i think are scum, especially in long phase games like this - you have effectively unlimited time to prepare a response, and it's not going to actually tell me anything beyond feed into a feedback loop chain of confirmation bias
Can I take this to mean that you know your confirmation bias already exists? More seriously, I seriously don't understand this perspective. No, you're not going to convince a wolf to vote themselves, and no, I don't advocate the "you're scum...no I'm not; you are...no I'm not; you are..." cycle, but you can still gain insight into a player by asking them questions, even if you have voiced suspicion of them. Like...half the time I find something suspicious it's because I can't understand the motivation or mindset behind the choice (prime example: Shadow's claim). Spending the rest of the Day going "hurr durr, Shadow obv scum b/c he claimed VT" isn't going to accomplish anything. And yes, I can say that and interact with others and wait for Shadow to either respond or not and use those responses and the other things he posts to re-evaluate, but I can also try to get him to explain his choice and use his responses to help in that evaluation. In this case, Shadow's either town legitimately not wanting to discuss PR elements or he's scum hiding behind that concept, so it's not as useful as I'd like, but that just means that I need to continue to examine his other choices, not that questioning him about it in the first place wasn't useful.
It's a freaking game of interactions, for goodness' sake. Choosing to shut down a whole avenue of communication is NOT a town decision, especially D1 when you have practically ZERO information to go on.
Ok, I'm done. I play my way, you're welcome to play your way, I'll hope that you turn out to be scum so I can feel vindicated, but I will accept that as your approach, especially since I can't even attempt a meta dive on you. I won't bring it up again unless you want me to.
has highroller played any other games on mtgs other than the recent banned mafia?
Not that I can blame you for not reading my whole wall of text, but I already said that I thought HR had only played one game prior to Banned, but I couldn't find the details.
Could people strongly townreading eco please explain their reads in non ethereal ways?
Without doing a full iso-dive/analysis, one element that I felt was town was his response to you in 136 where he takes the time to clarify his perspective and try to correct what he thinks is your incorrect presumptions. He's not attacking you, talking down to you, shading you...there's no agenda there. (Well, ok, his second response in that post where he says "great work" to your claim is a little snarky, but it's tempered by him actually asking you (his scum read) questions to try and figure you out.)
Similarly, he asked me if I was in a bad mood rather than assuming that what he saw as me being snippy was AI. Scum (maybe not scum!Eco?) would probably be happy (and safe) to go "wow, Cantrip is acting snippy, that seems questionable and possibly scummy; who's with me?" Just in general, there's no agenda, there's no attacks of opportunity, there's a lot of what I see as sincere scumhunting...maybe he just knows how to pocket me, I suppose, but I don't think so.
Quote from Shadow »
@cantrip: I don’t feel like engaging with highroller would be productive. Wrt where he’s trying to push the conversation to the frivolous, 408 and 415 are both hyper focused on the flavor, along with “do you know who my character is?” line, which is a sidestep of the reason I actually think he’s scum. I don’t care about the flavor, I care that he suddenly doesn’t have any sort of desire to push for claims, which is directly contrasting how he says he approaches the game and how the town should win.
To back up the his previous post before that, 401, he’s attempting to presume that I actually had no reason for voting him, and planned to make something up even though I’d already given my explanation at that point.
And all three of those posts are written to cast heavy shade on me, without even considering approaching me on it. It’s exactly the kind of attitude that’s meant to completely turn the tables on me, not meant to figure out my alignment at all.
I want to look his posts over again, but want to ask: would you say that you normally find that engaging/questioning your scum reads is productive (and this is just a Highroller/this situation thing), or is this generally how you handle scum reads?
Huh. And then Cheesecake goes and makes 487 and throws me for a bit of a loop. Maybe he is town. Or really good at scumming.
@Cheesecake: Ballpark of # of completed games? Would you say you're stronger as town, stronger as scum, strong overall...?
Posting ISO's or even just show casing why you think they are scum is also a thing. Famous saying on MU: Good town players find wolves. Great town players get other people to vote wolves.
Cheesecake, what do you think of Vezok?
gj scum because in this case interacting means... interacting.
Hes obviously still explaining why he scumreads people. How are you this far out of context?
@Cantrip: It really depends on the scum read, and why I’m reading them scum. Basically nothing highroller can say changes the stark difference I see in his choice and demeanor around mass claim. Like, maybe if he came in here and said “I completely have reversed my thoughts and stances on massclaims” then like, I’d want to open up that dialogue, but if that was the case he wouldn’t have defended the merit of mass flavor claim in other games.
do you think tom's (lack) of volume is alignment indicative, or is it tied to the stupid gimmick, where he's incapable of finding something to call scummy in every post enough to actually post naturally/at full volume?
or both i guess
I'd...lean more towards him not wanting to overdo the gimmick, so as a result he's posting a little less.
Unless Vezok thought shadow and lngrr were putting on some lovely wolf theatre, I don't know how vezok could read through the little powwah and think they are both wolves.
Page 3 was that whole rolefishing/shadow claim/cantrip/eco/me powwah. And from that, he got that all three of the wolves were talkign to cantrip and eco AT THAT TIME (because against, he does backtrack)
tom, you aren't this slow. My point is pretty ******* clear. I might have even said something on that page that shadow/lngrr are never w/w. I don't think vezok read that page honestly, or clearly has an agenda. The read doesn't feel real, because I can't understand how he got to that conclusion.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
(Its mindset)
Do you understand that if I think a scum is coaching another scum in thread they both have to be scum?
It's a simple thought. I don't really know how to explain differently and I have no idea how you don't believe I could arrive at this conclusion.
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you are about 2 seconds away from being on loltom status for the rest of the game.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
And it’s the mindset change from “I think massclaim and flavor claim are towns best tool” to “I don’t know the flavor, guess it won’t work/isnt worth pursuing.”
Lngrr/Vaimes/Cantrip/Eco
Ruma/Vez/Gj
Cheese/Shadow/Highroller
Rhand
The order just makes me O.o
Ok, dropped, but still bothering me.
Ok, then like how Eco's reading my tone. Cool.
Iirc, Highroller had only played one game prior to Banned and it was several years ago. Can't remember which one/his alignment, so... @Highroller: Can you point us to any of your scum games?
What eh thing? I mean...I use the word from time to time...?
I wanted to make a "your mom's not real" joke, but I generally don't like those so instead I'm just going to mention it so that everyone knows I could be witty and edgy if I wanted to be, but will also realize that I'm obviously also classy.
I said I'd elaborate when I returned.
Town
Ecophagy - Sincere inquiries, calm demeanor, asking good questions.
tomsloger - *I* feel like he's clearly communicating reads and taking stances. Possible that he's creating a smokescreen to hide behind later, but it doesn't feel that way. Plus Tom doesn't hide. Plus he's funny. I mean, have you SEEN that rainbow read list???
LnGrrrR - Lean town. My comment about the pocketing attempts that were failing should have pointed out that 158/185 would have been the perfect time for scum!LnG to stop trying to pocket (because it obv wasn't working) and turn on me. He didn't, even though it would have been fairly easy and unquestioned. Likely town.
[null range]
Vaimes - Plenty of posts, but I'm still not getting a strong feel from him. Near the top because he's at least interacting.
Riku - Really like the playfulness and interaction from RVS, but, as noted by practically everyone, that feeling is fading fast.
Highroller - Not enough content at that time, a little more now, slight town feel.
vezokpiraka - At the time of this list, no content. Bottom of nulls.
[/null range]
SleepyCheesecake - I know he's off-base because he's attacking me (and the things he's attacking me for feel like bad arguments, but that could be a meta thing), 18 felt like bad attempt at derp-clear, similarly 51 felt like an attempt to be "carefree town" ("didn't even look at my flavor"). On the plus side, he's asking questions and interacting....although...hmm. That's odd. I'll explain what I find odd at the end of this post.
Gentleman Johnny - Was here, I thought on the mindset response that I mentioned that would have moved him up with LnG above the nulls, but then I found additional concerns, so he moved back down. Almost put him above Cheesecake, but felt like Cheesecake was being more solvey, so left him here.
Rhand - [Redacted a little longer]
Shadowlancerx - His posting seems "fine", but I haven't gotten any strong town vibes yet, which is concerning, and I am having a really hard time reconciling his "HEY VANILLA TOWN HERE" post, because I feel like I know how he thinks. I'm unsettled by his choices, and knowing how strong a player he is, I think it's indicative.
Scum
What from Cheesecake is giving you slight +town? I know you found him scummier by the end of the read, but what did you like in the first 3 pages?
Actually...I'm sorta over this. If you're not going to play Mafia, why sign up?
For the fishing alone or is there more?
Can you elaborate on the bolded? I'm not seeing the logic that got you there.
I think this is a bad attack that ignores the possibility that players might re-evaluate their strategy after a game ends.
Will you point me at the specific post parts where you see this? I felt like most of his responses have been pretty straight-forward (with the exception of him calling Cheesecake's questions to him "snide", which I didn't feel at all).
I still don't see why you feel so strongly about HR with as little content as he's provided. (And yes, I know that one of your arguments is that town!HR would produce more content.) I could accept you saying "I have a strong scumread on HR and hey HR, engage with me so I can figure it out", but you haven't even asked HR a question. He's responding and engaging with you and asking questions, but you're just telling the thread that you don't agree with his responses and continuing to call him scum. Why aren't you engaging with your supposed primary suspect in order to figure him out?
In a similar vein...
Regarding Cheesecake. As I was reviewing my notes, I noticed something. Cheesecake hasn't asked me a single question, despite claiming I'm his highest scumread. The closest he's come is:
He attacks me on multiple fronts, but never actually asks me to explain my choices, give reads on other players...nothing (and yes, he's asking lots of other players those things). Twice he's mentioned that it could just be meta and he "might have to do some meta diving", but has also noted reluctance, and I don't think he ever plans on doing that. Why aren't you engaging with me and trying to figure me out if I'm your primary suspect?
Vote: shadowlancerx
But only because I feel like he's the more dangerous of the two. I'm fine voting Cheesecake, too, as I'm pretty sure they're both scum. Neither one is making ANY attempt to solve their primary scumread.
I think I feel good about Cantrip now.
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SleepyCheesecurd
Ecophagy
LnGrrrR
Cantripmancer
Rhand
Gentleman Johnny
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vezokpiraka
tomsloger
Rumanshi
Shadowlancerx
Highroller
Order isn't super important, mostly just "townleans" and "not town enough."
OK, so in the context of your read list that you posted earlier, you would essentially be moving Cheesecake down, Rhand stays fairly close to the bottom, and Vaimes might stay roughly where he is in quite a middling position. Is that a fair assessment?
Could you then please explain if you are still happy with your vote on GJ?
++++++
Well I guess at least we know when you flip scum we can trust you can clear four townies then
Vaimes seems fine to me so far. He's avoided both the Vaimes scum tells of bottom posting and breaking down in tears, and he's had some thoughts that I agree with.
I am very underwhelmed with this line of attack. I get the point, but it seems pretty tenuous to chase a low-poster because they didn't call for a mass claim after a single data point in a game where they directly benefitted from the mass claim by it turning on their role. I also think that a Shadow who was genuninely interested in solving would have saved the vote (or at least, the explanation of the vote) until HR had actually posted content to better inform the read. Instead, Shadow's put HR completely on the defensive and is acting like HR's defensiveness and lack of content in the face of accusations is some sort of slam dunk tell.
++++++++
I was going to ask Cantrip why he hadn't moved his vote after his previous reads list, but I ate dinner and he sniped me.
I admittedly didn't notice 416 where he separates Shadow from lngrrr, I was responding a post at a time. It was mostly sloppy on my end. The point I was trying to conceive is based on his early read, I didn't understand where he is getting a vote on rhand, rather than myself or lngrrr. My issue was his intro didn't match with ending vote (although he later admittedly goes into it with Rhand more directly). I thought after reading his list, he was going to end elsewhere, and then ends in Rhand/cheese, and puts me and lngrrr as t/w (if I understoof that correctly)
Cantrip, I notice you are doing a lot of questioning, but having to drag out current reads from you is irratating. I get why you moved back, I don't particularly like the way you did it. 389 feels like you are trying really hard to show a "stream of consciousness".
Use of "tone" is pretty nai and pretty standard on mu. The point to cheesecake that I was making was I don't like the highroller slot at that point (and nothing has really changed).
As far as you other question, since it kind of prescribes to it: pure tone = super town sounding. I can't describe you how, just read his posts. If he has an agenda, I can't possibly find it. I guess if there was an emotion I was looking for, I would describe it as "Earnest".
Also, of note OOG, I don't mind snark. Lord knows I can be smug and snarky. I just don't want to play 20 questions to figure ***** out. Like, when you wanted me to ask you your reasons: I wasn't expecting a ton of reasons at the time, I just assumed you didn't like my tone for some reason OR you liked everyone else's better. The highest post thing was a joke, because when you posted that list of three out, I was confused since it seemed it was all the active players, so I double checked the iso just to make sure.
This in particular, as I was rereading it, doesn't feel like something you way say to your top wolf read.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I would be careful with that. He isn't that high of a poster, and it could be he is surrounded by more heavier posters.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
That's pretty terrible mafia play, because even if they are town and have 100% accuracy that game, they aren't doing anything to convince other townies to follow that.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
i do read posts, and i do re-evaluate based on new information, but that information has to be seeing you think critically, try to solve, and do things i think make you town
i just have a very, very strong personal distaste for two people arguing back and forth about why one of them is scum, and think it serves no purpose but to solidify the read in the direction they were already going
consider me a terrible player then
i'll engage with people i think are town, and with people i'm not sure on alignment yet, and talk to them about the people i wish to talk about, but not like i'm going to convince my wolf reads to vote themselves, right?
Posting ISO's or even just show casing why you think they are scum is also a thing. Famous saying on MU: Good town players find wolves. Great town players get other people to vote wolves.
Cheesecake, what do you think of Vezok?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Vote Riku
Maybe that will get him to do something.
This game is pretty interesting. Usually by this point I feel like I have one person who I'm confident is scum (note: I'm often wrong), but I have a lot of leans this game. Maybe I'm out of practice.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
it's early d1. very long phases. more interested in letting people play their games and see where things go for now than try and herd cats to the target i want, especially when i'm capable of being wrong early on d1. i will 100% fight against a lynch on a town read, and if i do that, the lynch will end up on someone i don't think is town, which is good enough for me, especially d1
with regards to vezok, i dunno, conflicted a bit
his reads are almost a literal mirror of mine, and i disagree with almost literally everything he has said
i just can't tell if that's alignment indicative or not yet, as he reminds me of a certain archetype of player
like, look at this:
his 3 highest town reads are my 3 lowest reads right now
i also think his 4 lowest scum reads are all town
and even vaimes is my top town read
just want to see him post more and try and figure out alignments after the catchup to see if they are genuine reads and how they evolve vs. a wolf just blatantly firing out bad reads
(there's also the chance that i'm just wrong, but the fact that our reads are almost literally inverted makes me kind of spin my head around in a circle)
Ummm, what?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
his 3 towniest players are my 3 scummiest
i think his 4 strongest scum reads are all town to varying degrees
@cantrip: I don’t feel like engaging with highroller would be productive. Wrt where he’s trying to push the conversation to the frivolous, 408 and 415 are both hyper focused on the flavor, along with “do you know who my character is?” line, which is a sidestep of the reason I actually think he’s scum. I don’t care about the flavor, I care that he suddenly doesn’t have any sort of desire to push for claims, which is directly contrasting how he says he approaches the game and how the town should win.
To back up the his previous post before that, 401, he’s attempting to presume that I actually had no reason for voting him, and planned to make something up even though I’d already given my explanation at that point.
And all three of those posts are written to cast heavy shade on me, without even considering approaching me on it. It’s exactly the kind of attitude that’s meant to completely turn the tables on me, not meant to figure out my alignment at all.
@GJ: I follow with isoing, and breaking down what your scum reads say and do, but I would qualify engaging them as a back and forth dialogue, which I do find useful in a lot of scenarios, but sometimes it isn’t productive at all. I would guess that Vaimes is referring to the dialogue when he says not engaging scum reads is fine.
Also, Vaimes isn’t a player you can volume clear until later in the game.
Gentleman Johnny 66
Vaimes 62
SleepyCheesecake 61
tomsloger 56
I am legit floored tom isn't top poster.
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Cheeseball, how do you feel about rolling scum?
don't enjoy it all that much, i live for the red flips
like don't get me wrong i'd still try hard if i rolled scum here but it'd suck any enjoyment out of the game for me beyond "still would play to win"
sort of what i've been rolling around in my head, yeah
i disagree with almost literally everything they say, but it does feel like they actually believe what they're saying
do you have any experience with them as a wolf in previous games? basically, is this kind of confidence/assertiveness in line with what they're capable of doing as scum
do you think tom's (lack) of volume is alignment indicative, or is it tied to the stupid gimmick, where he's incapable of finding something to call scummy in every post enough to actually post naturally/at full volume?
or both i guess
Last time I played with them as scum was in the Secret Neighbours Micro where I very quickly got him lynched because he was being overly non-commital and passive. So that's obviously not what's happened here, which is a pretty good look for Vezok.
As for your comment on my 389, I find it interesting that both you and HR get "try hard" vibes. I mean, *I* know I'm sincere (and yes, it was very stream of consciousness; that's not unusual for me), so it's weird to be told "this feels fake", by multiple people, none the less.
Eh, maybe I just have OMGUS blinders on because he's attacking me, then? Dunno. I'm not feeling it yet.
I figured it was (at least mostly) a joke, possibly fronting a shade attempt. As for 20 questions...I have scumhunting methods (good or bad, they're how I play) that often rely on timing of responses, responses to how I ask a question, responses to how I DON'T ask a question, etc., so sometimes I take the scenic route because it's the only way I can think of to figure someone out. When I slow-rolled you I was trying a progression:
1) Wow, GJ doesn't like that scum team and chose to maybe shade me with a snarky comment about high posters.
2) I told GJ that I had concrete specific reasons for suspecting all three (including him), and instead of asking about them (since I didn't volunteer them), he said he'd just make assumptions. Why wouldn't he be curious if I outright say I have specifics?
3) Ok, I called him out on his lack of curiosity and he finally asked. How will he react if I slow-roll him now?
Your response was mild irritation with encouragement to me to take action, which felt like a good reaction. So...I'll try not to play 20 Questions, but 3-4 Questions is sorta...how I play. Sorry.
Actually, it is, but I absolutely won't go into it yet.
Can I take this to mean that you know your confirmation bias already exists? More seriously, I seriously don't understand this perspective. No, you're not going to convince a wolf to vote themselves, and no, I don't advocate the "you're scum...no I'm not; you are...no I'm not; you are..." cycle, but you can still gain insight into a player by asking them questions, even if you have voiced suspicion of them. Like...half the time I find something suspicious it's because I can't understand the motivation or mindset behind the choice (prime example: Shadow's claim). Spending the rest of the Day going "hurr durr, Shadow obv scum b/c he claimed VT" isn't going to accomplish anything. And yes, I can say that and interact with others and wait for Shadow to either respond or not and use those responses and the other things he posts to re-evaluate, but I can also try to get him to explain his choice and use his responses to help in that evaluation. In this case, Shadow's either town legitimately not wanting to discuss PR elements or he's scum hiding behind that concept, so it's not as useful as I'd like, but that just means that I need to continue to examine his other choices, not that questioning him about it in the first place wasn't useful.
It's a freaking game of interactions, for goodness' sake. Choosing to shut down a whole avenue of communication is NOT a town decision, especially D1 when you have practically ZERO information to go on.
Ok, I'm done. I play my way, you're welcome to play your way, I'll hope that you turn out to be scum so I can feel vindicated, but I will accept that as your approach, especially since I can't even attempt a meta dive on you. I won't bring it up again unless you want me to.
Not that I can blame you for not reading my whole wall of text, but I already said that I thought HR had only played one game prior to Banned, but I couldn't find the details.
Would you self-meta that you have noticeably lower post counts when you're scum, then?
If I'm reading him correctly, he's saying Vezok's reads are a reversal of his own, not that they mirror his own. "A mirror of" vs "They mirror".
Without doing a full iso-dive/analysis, one element that I felt was town was his response to you in 136 where he takes the time to clarify his perspective and try to correct what he thinks is your incorrect presumptions. He's not attacking you, talking down to you, shading you...there's no agenda there. (Well, ok, his second response in that post where he says "great work" to your claim is a little snarky, but it's tempered by him actually asking you (his scum read) questions to try and figure you out.)
Similarly, he asked me if I was in a bad mood rather than assuming that what he saw as me being snippy was AI. Scum (maybe not scum!Eco?) would probably be happy (and safe) to go "wow, Cantrip is acting snippy, that seems questionable and possibly scummy; who's with me?" Just in general, there's no agenda, there's no attacks of opportunity, there's a lot of what I see as sincere scumhunting...maybe he just knows how to pocket me, I suppose, but I don't think so.
I want to look his posts over again, but want to ask: would you say that you normally find that engaging/questioning your scum reads is productive (and this is just a Highroller/this situation thing), or is this generally how you handle scum reads?
Huh. And then Cheesecake goes and makes 487 and throws me for a bit of a loop. Maybe he is town. Or really good at scumming.
@Cheesecake: Ballpark of # of completed games? Would you say you're stronger as town, stronger as scum, strong overall...?
Hes obviously still explaining why he scumreads people. How are you this far out of context?
tomsloger (2): Rumanshi, Rhand
Shadowlancerx (2): Ecophagy, Cantripmancer
Cantripmancer (1): SleepyCheescake
Highroller (2): Shadowlancerx, Vaimes
Rhand (2): Tom, vezokpiraka
Vez (1): Gentleman Johnny
Rumanshi (1): LnGrrrR
Not voting (1): Highroller
Please let me know if there are any errors in the VC.