Glibness aside, #236 was actually a direct invitation for you to explain why you moved your vote - although I grant it was phrased rather rhetorically.
Fair, I promise I’ll get to it then. I kinda would like Highroller to make a few more posts before I dig into it; I don’t really even need him to acknowledge my vote, just want to see some thread presence for me to look at and see if I’m off base.
So, shadowlancerx claims I'm suspicious - like the second most suspicious player, in fact - and then votes me, and he doesn't provide any explanation for either. So then he's asked why he voted me, and he says he'd like me to make a few more posts before he explains his reasoning for voting me.
Why do you need me to make a few more posts, shadowlancerx?
Is it because you realized I didn't actually provide you any justifiable reason for doing so because I only made two posts, so you need me to post more so you can actually form an argument?
No, but seriously, here's all of my posts that were made up until then:
If you're asking who is Amelie Jeunet, good question, because I have never heard of her before receiving my role PM, and a google search turned up with nothing. Could this be Grapefruit21's way of throwing off any mass flavor claiming breaking the game? If so, tip of the hat to him for Highroller-proofing the game.
I'm actually going to try something here. Vote: Grapefruit21.
@Highroller: Normally when someone would vote a player outside the game and/or the mod and/or something silly like "Vote: Elvis Presley" (when no player named "Elvis Presley" is in the game), they'd catch a lot of flak for it. I suspect you are not in part because you've so frequently engaged in flavor gaming, so players feel like you are on a bit of a learning curve and aren't just voting you (or maybe I'm just projecting, because that's the main reason I'm not suspecting you for it). It used to be a bit more of a common "wild and crazy thing" to make games where the mod could be voted, but that's not so much the case anymore. (I mean, if you want to wait for a vote count and see what happens, go for it, but I'm doubtful that your vote will show up in the vote count.)
I am voting you, sir! Voter suppression is anti-American!
Alright, but seriously, damn this thread exploded in posts. Is this what a game with people who are actually active looks like?
Yup, definitely a dangerous individual right there.
But seriously, which of those 12 sentences was the one that gave me away, in your mind?
Gentleman Johnny, I want you to chime in as well. Which of those 12 sentences did you find that tone you didn't like? Or was it sort of a general thing that kind of permeated through all two of those posts?
I read the last game you were in. And thank you for the compliment on my RVS vote
Now that you're here, what I meant by my question was, do you have a method? Do you look for specific tells, do you try to look for town first or scum, etc etc.?
Thoughts up to now: shadow and Lgrrr are both scum. Lrrrr makes the fishing post, shadow counters with "I know for a fact there are vanillas "(either he is vanilla or scum with vanilla) which you kinda need to be blind to ignore and Lrgrgrgg is all like "but maybe there aren't vanillas". This seems both like scum theatre and trying to course correct Lllrrrr to make him stop fishing so blatantly.
And if shadow is town, Lrrrrs fish somehow worked so gj.
GJ is giving me massive scum vibes. Especially when Cantrip puts out his scum team theory and he goes off. He seems to take offence of the entire scumteam instead of just himself.
Cantrip is being really town here. Cantrip's scum aggression comes out when he is caught in some way and usually looks terribly fake. This town cantrip being aggressive cause he wants others to listen.
Slight +town on eco and cheesecake, but it's nothing concrete.
unvote
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He gets in here, claimed his flavor, and then says “oh no, I guess because the flavor is made up that won’t work,” and then drops it entirely. For real? He doesn’t even try and get something going, he doesn’t even speculate on anything, or even bring up mass claim and his reasons why.
Pretty sure he rolled scum and doesn’t actually want to push that angle.
Do YOU know who Amelie Jeunet is?
'Cause I don't. I don't know if she's original to this game, fictional, or historical. I suspect the former, given the total lack of any Google results (save for the last name of the director of the film Amelie).
So flavor's apparently useless to us this game. we're stuck just doing this the old-fashioned way.
Nothing highroller has said dissuades me from my feelings on him; itt scum!highroller can’t see the forest through the trees and is intentionally trying to straw man the points I’ve made against him by nitpicking.
one thing of note when combing through his iso a bit is that cantrip is absolutely the type of player i'm going to struggle to read as genuine, almost every post has an extra phrase or an emote or something that just looks 100% fake
cantrip scum when these turn smarmy/used carsalesman-y
At least, thats how i caught him in this game which i think day 1 would be a good read for you if you want to meta. Shadow/cantrip team killed me n1 for a similar read on cantrip
Not really sure if hes done that here though? I liked beefcake cheesecake line and the "im fabulous"
Nothing highroller has said dissuades me from my feelings on him; itt scum!highroller can’t see the forest through the trees and is intentionally trying to straw man the points I’ve made against him by nitpicking.
Points, plural? You had one point: that I'm mafia because of a post I made in a previous game. Yes, I try to break games through flavor analysis. However, it doesn't work when the game has been set up in such a way that you cannot perform any analysis.
This seems to be one such game. Again, do YOU know who Amelie Jeunet is? I don't. The flavor of that role means nothing to me. Nor Google. It could be entirely original, in which it would mean nothing to anybody save the creator of this game, in which case it is effectively worthless information. What interpretation can you make of that?
If this were a Sherlock Holmes mafia, and someone claimed Sherlock or Moriarty, or an Avengers mafia and someone claimed Iron Man or Thanos, or a Lord of the Rings mafia and someone claimed Frodo or Sauron, you could do something with that information. You could try to get inside the mod's head and figure out how they crafted the game. But that requires you to know the flavor of the game in order to do. If you aren't familiar with the work, it's useless. If no one in the player base except the mod had ever read The Lord of the Rings or knew anything about Sherlock Holmes or the Marvel Universe, all of these names would be useless. You wouldn't know who Frodo was from Gandalf or Gimli. You might as well just get random letters. Try to parse who's mafia between GWERET, PLANZK, and LGNEOP. Which one's the suspicious one? Doesn't work does it? If the roles of this game are all made up by the mod, it's probably the same deal here.
But Amelie Jeunet, Vanilla Town, veteran spy from the Cold War, ran missions in East Berlin. Ok, go nuts, shadowlancerx. You tell me how that's useful. Because I don't see it.
Also, your argument is I don't want to start a flavor claim, I don't want to push that angle? Ok, in fear of what, exactly? That people might find out about my role? I claimed my role my first post!
So far liking Vezok's catchup (with the exception of being wrong on me), noting the slight caveat that if he is scum, he has had a chance to see what his buddies are posting.
If Vezok was scum, I think it would be weird to call me out as scum, while simultaneously pointing out he agrees with me on Cheesecakes attack on Tom due to his schtick.
Sleepycheesecake seems worse and worse. Rhand too. Highroller is straight town. Tom also. I find him really transparent compared to his usual game.
Gj's interactions with Vaimes feel really forced. If he thinks vaimes is scum and my slot is also scum there is no way you convince him to join the lurker wagon. Seems really disingineous.
I think I'm somewhere around.
Cantrip/tom/highroller town
Eco/shadow townie
Riku more town than neutral
Vaimes neutral
Gj/lrrrgr scummy
Sleepycheesecake/rhand scum
Gj and lrrrgr should not be on the same position, but I have no idea how to split them. I liked a bit of the last posts from lrrgr which was surprising. It looked like trying to pocket tom, but at the same time it was too verbose to not look like a real defense on a slot he considers town or at least not scum for the reasons presented.
vote rhand
I'd actually vote for cheesecake, but rhand seems to have more steam. Maybe I'll switch.
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Then a lighthearted #197 "rand scum for going the wrong direction on cantrip/shadow" (which, as far as I can tell, is a jokey way to tell Rhand he's incorrect)
See that's where my problem lies. That post doesn't feel lighthearted to me; it feels like he has a strong opinion on the Cantrip/Shadow duo. And when I ask him about that, he brushes it off, only to call me scum when I pressure on.
If this is town!tom with a gimmick, I'm going to have a very tough time figuring out which reads are serious and which ones are a joke.
Maybe it's because I'm not native English, but I don't feel the lightheartedness of that post.
It was 1900 posts in, near the end of day 3 (I was curious so I checked).
I read the game from there to the end. Shadow lost that game, which reinforces my idea that Shadow wouldn’t claim vt as scum this early.
Why? Again, I don't see how Shadow's claim in that game really affected anything, so what does it do for you?
I know Shadow can come up with claims as scum that make him ride all the way to the end. I just can’t imagine a player of his caliber deciding to claim VT out of the blue early D1. It gives him no mechanical outs later on in the game, and he loves those.
Overarching, rhand is scum for falling into the trap of how [generic scum] interact with [nonspecific town they dont know what to do with]
It should surprise no one here i have a lot of experience with that. And his progression on me is straight up that as well as fake.
Cheesesteak scum for not just reading the 3 paragraphs i already did on this.
As for gj read. Not super into talking about it but if i fully understood it all its a read scum are more likely to make but less likely to vocalize when they do. So i can see you thinking its not a route wolves are likely to take but dont think its more than a percentage point or two and barely care about it
You’re ignoring my whole thought progression to fit your narrative.
Will you outline your thought progression again for me, please?
I woke up, skimmed the thread and saw that post of tom’s I reacted to.
Reading more, I realized he was calling everyone scum and was playing a gimmick.
I from there on had 2 conversations with tom at the same time: 1 about the initial issue and him calling me scum over nothing and 1 about how distracting his gimmick is. And I have the feeling he was baiting me with this:
Highroller is town for correctly calling out everyone who called him scum from his two posts. There was nothing of substance in those posts to make anyone really be swayed yet several people said he is scummy for it. Highroller comes back by throwing question at everyone who scumread him. That's exactly the tonwie play he did in banned mafia when he caught people.
And your argument about him roleclaiming immediately is bad and you know it. He claimed a part of his role that he guessed would help the town and kept the rest close to his chest. He had a daykill that got activated by having someone eat a corpse he made with his first ability that he claimed and told everyone to knock themselves out on eating the corpses.
Highroller is not stupid and knows exactly what and how much to claim in every game.
Regarding tom, being transparemt is good because at the end of the day tom is hard to read as any alignment, but he keeps his cards way closer to his chest as scum. Here he is actively giving reasons for his scumreads even though some are jokes.
Claiming tom's gimmick is distracting because you only read the attack on and got confused is irrelevant. Town doesn't get scared when a single person accuses them of something irrelevant/non-sensical.
It's amazing how in a single post you made me go from Rhand probably scum to Rhand certainly scum.
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Highroller is town for correctly calling out everyone who called him scum from his two posts. There was nothing of substance in those posts to make anyone really be swayed yet several people said he is scummy for it. Highroller comes back by throwing question at everyone who scumread him. That's exactly the tonwie play he did in banned mafia when he caught people.
And your argument about him roleclaiming immediately is bad and you know it. He claimed a part of his role that he guessed would help the town and kept the rest close to his chest. He had a daykill that got activated by having someone eat a corpse he made with his first ability that he claimed and told everyone to knock themselves out on eating the corpses.
Highroller is not stupid and knows exactly what and how much to claim in every game.
The “and you know it” part there is bad and you know it.
I wasn’t in that game. I saw an early huge claim, and a lot of conviction that he can break games with mass role claiming.
I did not know he hid part of his role.
Fact is still that he pushed for a mass roleclaim there and not here.
There’s also the post frequency, but that remains to be seen.
Regarding tom, being transparemt is good because at the end of the day tom is hard to read as any alignment, but he keeps his cards way closer to his chest as scum. Here he is actively giving reasons for his scumreads even though some are jokes.
Claiming tom's gimmick is distracting because you only read the attack on and got confused is irrelevant. Town doesn't get scared when a single person accuses them of something irrelevant/non-sensical. [quote]
Tom’s gimmick is distracting period. If you are good at seeing where he’s serious and where not, good for you. I can’t.
I’m ok with him talking in poems or whatever, but this particular one has me all confused as to what he’s really saying. It also gives him no accountability whatsoever: I called him out over one of his supposed reads (which was even a real one), and he brushes it off.
[quote]It's amazing how in a single post you made me go from Rhand probably scum to Rhand certainly scum.
And I thought you could actually read me. Are you scum with tom Vezok?
Sorry, I thought you were in that game. Doesn't really explain why you couldn't be bothered to check his role at the end of the game to see his real role.
And even then your argument still falls flat, because highroller's daykill was only usable if he knew everything about a player (card name, type and mana cost) so pushing for a mass claim was the right play regarding his role. He needed to have all cards on the table in order for his ability to work.
And attacking players for not being around is scummy in all situations as a defense is either impossible (we can't know what highroller is doing irl) or against the rules of the game (don't talk about ongoing games)
Highroller has given no sign that he missed much of the day on purpose and not because of real life.
Like your entire attack on highroller is "he did something in another game as town and not here" completely ignoring the reasons why he did what he did and that "he hasn't posted much". You of all people should know that life gets in the way of both town and scum and it's as NAI as NAI gets.
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Glibness aside, #236 was actually a direct invitation for you to explain why you moved your vote - although I grant it was phrased rather rhetorically.
Fair, I promise I’ll get to it then. I kinda would like Highroller to make a few more posts before I dig into it; I don’t really even need him to acknowledge my vote, just want to see some thread presence for me to look at and see if I’m off base.
So, shadowlancerx claims I'm suspicious - like the second most suspicious player, in fact - and then votes me, and he doesn't provide any explanation for either. So then he's asked why he voted me, and he says he'd like me to make a few more posts before he explains his reasoning for voting me.
Why do you need me to make a few more posts, shadowlancerx?
Is it because you realized I didn't actually provide you any justifiable reason for doing so because I only made two posts, so you need me to post more so you can actually form an argument?
No, but seriously, here's all of my posts that were made up until then:
If you're asking who is Amelie Jeunet, good question, because I have never heard of her before receiving my role PM, and a google search turned up with nothing. Could this be Grapefruit21's way of throwing off any mass flavor claiming breaking the game? If so, tip of the hat to him for Highroller-proofing the game.
I'm actually going to try something here. Vote: Grapefruit21.
@Highroller: Normally when someone would vote a player outside the game and/or the mod and/or something silly like "Vote: Elvis Presley" (when no player named "Elvis Presley" is in the game), they'd catch a lot of flak for it. I suspect you are not in part because you've so frequently engaged in flavor gaming, so players feel like you are on a bit of a learning curve and aren't just voting you (or maybe I'm just projecting, because that's the main reason I'm not suspecting you for it). It used to be a bit more of a common "wild and crazy thing" to make games where the mod could be voted, but that's not so much the case anymore. (I mean, if you want to wait for a vote count and see what happens, go for it, but I'm doubtful that your vote will show up in the vote count.)
I am voting you, sir! Voter suppression is anti-American!
Alright, but seriously, damn this thread exploded in posts. Is this what a game with people who are actually active looks like?
Yup, definitely a dangerous individual right there.
But seriously, which of those 12 sentences was the one that gave me away, in your mind?
Gentleman Johnny, I want you to chime in as well. Which of those 12 sentences did you find that tone you didn't like? Or was it sort of a general thing that kind of permeated through all two of those posts?
I mean it's a general thing. You are coming off silly, which I am sure is the intention. But I don't think it feels legit. Almost as if you are forcing it.
The lack of hunting is the other issue, and the one I would be more willing to look elsewhere if you were partaking in.
Nothing highroller has said dissuades me from my feelings on him; itt scum!highroller can’t see the forest through the trees and is intentionally trying to straw man the points I’ve made against him by nitpicking.
Points, plural? You had one point: that I'm mafia because of a post I made in a previous game. Yes, I try to break games through flavor analysis. However, it doesn't work when the game has been set up in such a way that you cannot perform any analysis.
This seems to be one such game. Again, do YOU know who Amelie Jeunet is? I don't. The flavor of that role means nothing to me. Nor Google. It could be entirely original, in which it would mean nothing to anybody save the creator of this game, in which case it is effectively worthless information. What interpretation can you make of that?
If this were a Sherlock Holmes mafia, and someone claimed Sherlock or Moriarty, or an Avengers mafia and someone claimed Iron Man or Thanos, or a Lord of the Rings mafia and someone claimed Frodo or Sauron, you could do something with that information. You could try to get inside the mod's head and figure out how they crafted the game. But that requires you to know the flavor of the game in order to do. If you aren't familiar with the work, it's useless. If no one in the player base except the mod had ever read The Lord of the Rings or knew anything about Sherlock Holmes or the Marvel Universe, all of these names would be useless. You wouldn't know who Frodo was from Gandalf or Gimli. You might as well just get random letters. Try to parse who's mafia between GWERET, PLANZK, and LGNEOP. Which one's the suspicious one? Doesn't work does it? If the roles of this game are all made up by the mod, it's probably the same deal here.
But Amelie Jeunet, Vanilla Town, veteran spy from the Cold War, ran missions in East Berlin. Ok, go nuts, shadowlancerx. You tell me how that's useful. Because I don't see it.
Also, your argument is I don't want to start a flavor claim, I don't want to push that angle? Ok, in fear of what, exactly? That people might find out about my role? I claimed my role my first post!
Without getting into a ton of debate here, most hosts are clever enough to know people try to flavor game, and purposefully give flavor that doesn't automatically give up alliance. There are no french vanillas really on mtgs.
So far liking Vezok's catchup (with the exception of being wrong on me), noting the slight caveat that if he is scum, he has had a chance to see what his buddies are posting.
If Vezok was scum, I think it would be weird to call me out as scum, while simultaneously pointing out he agrees with me on Cheesecakes attack on Tom due to his schtick.
I don't particularly care for it. I don't know 100%, but it looks he just mimiced Cantripmancer with half his reads, and I can't assume he is serious if he read through and got you AND shadow is w/w. I guess I can see how people might scum read one of you, but not both. In particular:
Gj's interactions with Vaimes feel really forced. If he thinks vaimes is scum and my slot is also scum there is no way you convince him to join the lurker wagon. Seems really disingineous.
Considering you think me a wolf with lngrrr, and you just aren't sure if we are w/w together, and I have also stated rhand is a light wolf read, why are you voting him? It feels like you just ignored all the observations and barely even mentioned Rhand.
In fact, in the world you just created, Rhand can only be a wolf if both me and tom are also wolves. That's the only real reason you gave to justify voting him.
Vote Vezok
Vezok/Highroller/Riku
Slight hedge on Rhand/Vaimes still. I don't think Rhand is a wolf with Vezok though, if it wasn't obvious from this post.
Thoughts up to now: shadow and Lgrrr are both scum. Lrrrr makes the fishing post, shadow counters with "I know for a fact there are vanillas "(either he is vanilla or scum with vanilla) which you kinda need to be blind to ignore and Lrgrgrgg is all like "but maybe there aren't vanillas". This seems both like scum theatre and trying to course correct Lllrrrr to make him stop fishing so blatantly.
And if shadow is town, Lrrrrs fish somehow worked so gj.
GJ is giving me massive scum vibes. Especially when Cantrip puts out his scum team theory and he goes off. He seems to take offence of the entire scumteam instead of just himself.
Sleepycheesecake seems worse and worse. Rhand too. Highroller is straight town. Tom also. I find him really transparent compared to his usual game.
Gj's interactions with Vaimes feel really forced. If he thinks vaimes is scum and my slot is also scum there is no way you convince him to join the lurker wagon. Seems really disingineous.
I think I'm somewhere around.
Cantrip/tom/highroller town
Eco/shadow townie
Riku more town than neutral
Vaimes neutral Gj/lrrrgr scummy
Sleepycheesecake/rhand scum
Gj and lrrrgr should not be on the same position, but I have no idea how to split them. I liked a bit of the last posts from lrrgr which was surprising. It looked like trying to pocket tom, but at the same time it was too verbose to not look like a real defense on a slot he considers town or at least not scum for the reasons presented.
That last part should be quoted. tom's gimmick is distracting, and annoying. It just isn't wolfy, and isn't part of his wolf meta.
The point I am making is you are just piling on these reasons to wolf me, rhand has one interaction you don't like with tom/highroller, so he is a wolf?!
@Vezok, I am not seeing Highroller obvious towniness. Could you explain what you're seeing?
Also, you gave Riku town points for interacting with people. Which posts? He has had a whopping 11 posts out of RVS, and one of those posts was "Hmmm". Not a single question in a post. So...?
Why is Rhand so wolfy, apart from the fact that he doesn't agree with your reads. (id est tom/highroller) and why is he lower on the list than people you have made wolf vibe posts from?
Vez is technically correct (the best kind of correct) in that highroller knows to hold back personally, but it doesn’t change the fact that he’s gone from advocating mass claim, to dismissing any sort of claim based on his own flavor being made up. It doesn’t track.
On top of that, he’s still strawmanning the actual argument I’ve made against him. I don’t care about the flavor of the game, I don’t subscribe to the game being breakable by it, or a mass claim. But highroller has self proported that he does, and the fact that he didn’t even bring it up is super suspicious. Additionally, he’s seemed very interested in just discrediting me and pushing the conversation in a different direction.
@GJ: what indicates to you that vez and highroller are aligned? Do you think Vez jumps into the game, sees a partner getting pressure and immediately chainsaws? (Serious question, not being incredulous)
@GJ: what indicates to you that vez and highroller are aligned? Do you think Vez jumps into the game, sees a partner getting pressure and immediately chainsaws? (Serious question, not being incredulous)
My gut instinct would be to say no, but he did the same thing with tom (who I think is town). So I could buy it, especially if he thinks he is digging into fertile grand (he himself said he is pushing rhand because it looks like it's gathering steam over cheesecake he has as the same level of wolfiness).
@Vezok, I am not seeing Highroller obvious towniness. Could you explain what you're seeing?
Also, you gave Riku town points for interacting with people. Which posts? He has had a whopping 11 posts out of RVS, and one of those posts was "Hmmm". Not a single question in a post. So...?
The last point is why Riku has been sliding down in my reads.
@GJ: what indicates to you that vez and highroller are aligned? Do you think Vez jumps into the game, sees a partner getting pressure and immediately chainsaws? (Serious question, not being incredulous)
Do you think Vezok / Highroller / tom can be a world?
@GJ: what indicates to you that vez and highroller are aligned? Do you think Vez jumps into the game, sees a partner getting pressure and immediately chainsaws? (Serious question, not being incredulous)
Do you think Vezok / Highroller / tom can be a world?
Yeah, it can be a world. I don’t really have an opinion on whether or not it is yet, I want to see Highroller flip though.
I’m just allergic to tom calling me “outed scum” and vezok “certainly scum”.
That’s totally misplaced bravado on early D1 and I think sign of a mindset that isn’t town.
I would prefer one of their flips first.
I’m just allergic to tom calling me “outed scum” and vezok “certainly scum”.
That’s totally misplaced bravado on early D1 and I think sign of a mindset that isn’t town.
I would prefer one of their flips first.
Yeah, they’re both off base, but I don’t actually think it’s AI for either of them? Perhaps Vez, I’d have to double check.
If he is silly and his posts give you a headache, he is probably town.
If he is more serious, business like, he is a wolf.
Playstation is his most recent wolf game, that I recall. tom is also one of the few players I will actually use meta on, and only as a leaning rule. I think I mentioned this to him as well, but he has stuck to it.
I can't assume he is serious if he read through and got you AND shadow is w/w.
gj scum because he didnt even do that
Thoughts up to now: shadow and Lgrrr are both scum.
I mean, he clearly did. Yes, his more recent read list backtracked and switched to he thinks lngree baited a town Shadow to claim, but come on tom....really?
Vez is technically correct (the best kind of correct) in that highroller knows to hold back personally, but it doesn’t change the fact that he’s gone from advocating mass claim, to dismissing any sort of claim based on his own flavor being made up. It doesn’t track.
On top of that, he’s still strawmanning the actual argument I’ve made against him. I don’t care about the flavor of the game, I don’t subscribe to the game being breakable by it, or a mass claim. But highroller has self proported that he does, and the fact that he didn’t even bring it up is super suspicious. Additionally, he’s seemed very interested in just discrediting me and pushing the conversation in a different direction.
shadow scum for his main push being (essentially) flavor and omgus
@Vezok, I am not seeing Highroller obvious towniness. Could you explain what you're seeing?
Also, you gave Riku town points for interacting with people. Which posts? He has had a whopping 11 posts out of RVS, and one of those posts was "Hmmm". Not a single question in a post. So...?
The last point is why Riku has been sliding down in my reads.
ruma scum because he couldnt really keep it up tbh
I can't assume he is serious if he read through and got you AND shadow is w/w.
gj scum because he didnt even do that
Thoughts up to now: shadow and Lgrrr are both scum.
I mean, he clearly did. Yes, his more recent read list backtracked and switched to he thinks lngree baited a town Shadow to claim, but come on tom....really?
i mean you said "read through and got..." when it was actually "read through the first 3 pages and got"
Is there something in those pages that makes that not believable?
So, shadowlancerx claims I'm suspicious - like the second most suspicious player, in fact - and then votes me, and he doesn't provide any explanation for either. So then he's asked why he voted me, and he says he'd like me to make a few more posts before he explains his reasoning for voting me.
Why do you need me to make a few more posts, shadowlancerx?
Is it because you realized I didn't actually provide you any justifiable reason for doing so because I only made two posts, so you need me to post more so you can actually form an argument?
No, but seriously, here's all of my posts that were made up until then:
Yup, definitely a dangerous individual right there.
But seriously, which of those 12 sentences was the one that gave me away, in your mind?
Gentleman Johnny, I want you to chime in as well. Which of those 12 sentences did you find that tone you didn't like? Or was it sort of a general thing that kind of permeated through all two of those posts?
I read the last game you were in. And thank you for the compliment on my RVS vote
Now that you're here, what I meant by my question was, do you have a method? Do you look for specific tells, do you try to look for town first or scum, etc etc.?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
could you comment on shadow's post near the bottom of this link
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/804103-secret-agent-mafia-day-1-international-men-and?comment=381
(it is post #381, if the link doesn't work properly)
given your exceptionally self-centric posting so far it seems relevant
alternatively, could you talk about things people have said or done that aren't related to you, and what you think it means for their alignments?
Thoughts up to now: shadow and Lgrrr are both scum. Lrrrr makes the fishing post, shadow counters with "I know for a fact there are vanillas "(either he is vanilla or scum with vanilla) which you kinda need to be blind to ignore and Lrgrgrgg is all like "but maybe there aren't vanillas". This seems both like scum theatre and trying to course correct Lllrrrr to make him stop fishing so blatantly.
And if shadow is town, Lrrrrs fish somehow worked so gj.
GJ is giving me massive scum vibes. Especially when Cantrip puts out his scum team theory and he goes off. He seems to take offence of the entire scumteam instead of just himself.
Cantrip is being really town here. Cantrip's scum aggression comes out when he is caught in some way and usually looks terribly fake. This town cantrip being aggressive cause he wants others to listen.
Slight +town on eco and cheesecake, but it's nothing concrete.
unvote
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But sure:
Do YOU know who Amelie Jeunet is?
'Cause I don't. I don't know if she's original to this game, fictional, or historical. I suspect the former, given the total lack of any Google results (save for the last name of the director of the film Amelie).
So flavor's apparently useless to us this game. we're stuck just doing this the old-fashioned way.
And yes, this one is a joke because i think thats a bad way to read someone so also scum for doing that
Except its not people do it all the time i just strongly disagree
At least, thats how i caught him in this game which i think day 1 would be a good read for you if you want to meta. Shadow/cantrip team killed me n1 for a similar read on cantrip
Not really sure if hes done that here though? I liked beefcake cheesecake line and the "im fabulous"
Lets go ahead and call this one pending
You're really asking me that?
This seems to be one such game. Again, do YOU know who Amelie Jeunet is? I don't. The flavor of that role means nothing to me. Nor Google. It could be entirely original, in which it would mean nothing to anybody save the creator of this game, in which case it is effectively worthless information. What interpretation can you make of that?
If this were a Sherlock Holmes mafia, and someone claimed Sherlock or Moriarty, or an Avengers mafia and someone claimed Iron Man or Thanos, or a Lord of the Rings mafia and someone claimed Frodo or Sauron, you could do something with that information. You could try to get inside the mod's head and figure out how they crafted the game. But that requires you to know the flavor of the game in order to do. If you aren't familiar with the work, it's useless. If no one in the player base except the mod had ever read The Lord of the Rings or knew anything about Sherlock Holmes or the Marvel Universe, all of these names would be useless. You wouldn't know who Frodo was from Gandalf or Gimli. You might as well just get random letters. Try to parse who's mafia between GWERET, PLANZK, and LGNEOP. Which one's the suspicious one? Doesn't work does it? If the roles of this game are all made up by the mod, it's probably the same deal here.
But Amelie Jeunet, Vanilla Town, veteran spy from the Cold War, ran missions in East Berlin. Ok, go nuts, shadowlancerx. You tell me how that's useful. Because I don't see it.
Also, your argument is I don't want to start a flavor claim, I don't want to push that angle? Ok, in fear of what, exactly? That people might find out about my role? I claimed my role my first post!
Cheescake shoots up the scum list on his poor attack on tom's gimmick. Frankly saying someone should act in a certain way is not a good attack.
Rhand gets some scummy points for the cryptic comments about gj and defensivness against tom.
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If Vezok was scum, I think it would be weird to call me out as scum, while simultaneously pointing out he agrees with me on Cheesecakes attack on Tom due to his schtick.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Sleepycheesecake seems worse and worse. Rhand too. Highroller is straight town. Tom also. I find him really transparent compared to his usual game.
Gj's interactions with Vaimes feel really forced. If he thinks vaimes is scum and my slot is also scum there is no way you convince him to join the lurker wagon. Seems really disingineous.
I think I'm somewhere around.
Cantrip/tom/highroller town
Eco/shadow townie
Riku more town than neutral
Vaimes neutral
Gj/lrrrgr scummy
Sleepycheesecake/rhand scum
Gj and lrrrgr should not be on the same position, but I have no idea how to split them. I liked a bit of the last posts from lrrgr which was surprising. It looked like trying to pocket tom, but at the same time it was too verbose to not look like a real defense on a slot he considers town or at least not scum for the reasons presented.
vote rhand
I'd actually vote for cheesecake, but rhand seems to have more steam. Maybe I'll switch.
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Because you've engaged with people. It's +town for you
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Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Nothing else, but I’m pretty sure I’m right. We should really stop this conversation though.
Why is tom nowhere to be seen in your wolf team considerations GJ?
This is why I think tom is scum.
See that's where my problem lies. That post doesn't feel lighthearted to me; it feels like he has a strong opinion on the Cantrip/Shadow duo. And when I ask him about that, he brushes it off, only to call me scum when I pressure on.
If this is town!tom with a gimmick, I'm going to have a very tough time figuring out which reads are serious and which ones are a joke.
Maybe it's because I'm not native English, but I don't feel the lightheartedness of that post.
I lol’ed
I know Shadow can come up with claims as scum that make him ride all the way to the end. I just can’t imagine a player of his caliber deciding to claim VT out of the blue early D1. It gives him no mechanical outs later on in the game, and he loves those.
We were live chatting when I said this. I was actually surprised there were only 2 posts to look at.
I woke up, skimmed the thread and saw that post of tom’s I reacted to.
Reading more, I realized he was calling everyone scum and was playing a gimmick.
I from there on had 2 conversations with tom at the same time: 1 about the initial issue and him calling me scum over nothing and 1 about how distracting his gimmick is. And I have the feeling he was baiting me with this:
@Highroller: you’re missing shadow’s point completely. You didn’t roleclaim, you nameclaimed. In Banned mafia you roleclaimed immediately.
@Vezok: Why is Highroller town? And why is tom being “really transparent compared to his usual game” a town tell for him?
unvote, vote Highroller
And your argument about him roleclaiming immediately is bad and you know it. He claimed a part of his role that he guessed would help the town and kept the rest close to his chest. He had a daykill that got activated by having someone eat a corpse he made with his first ability that he claimed and told everyone to knock themselves out on eating the corpses.
Highroller is not stupid and knows exactly what and how much to claim in every game.
Regarding tom, being transparemt is good because at the end of the day tom is hard to read as any alignment, but he keeps his cards way closer to his chest as scum. Here he is actively giving reasons for his scumreads even though some are jokes.
Claiming tom's gimmick is distracting because you only read the attack on and got confused is irrelevant. Town doesn't get scared when a single person accuses them of something irrelevant/non-sensical.
It's amazing how in a single post you made me go from Rhand probably scum to Rhand certainly scum.
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The “and you know it” part there is bad and you know it.
I wasn’t in that game. I saw an early huge claim, and a lot of conviction that he can break games with mass role claiming.
I did not know he hid part of his role.
Fact is still that he pushed for a mass roleclaim there and not here.
There’s also the post frequency, but that remains to be seen.
And I thought you could actually read me. Are you scum with tom Vezok?
And even then your argument still falls flat, because highroller's daykill was only usable if he knew everything about a player (card name, type and mana cost) so pushing for a mass claim was the right play regarding his role. He needed to have all cards on the table in order for his ability to work.
And attacking players for not being around is scummy in all situations as a defense is either impossible (we can't know what highroller is doing irl) or against the rules of the game (don't talk about ongoing games)
Highroller has given no sign that he missed much of the day on purpose and not because of real life.
Like your entire attack on highroller is "he did something in another game as town and not here" completely ignoring the reasons why he did what he did and that "he hasn't posted much". You of all people should know that life gets in the way of both town and scum and it's as NAI as NAI gets.
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unvote
vote tom
I mean it's a general thing. You are coming off silly, which I am sure is the intention. But I don't think it feels legit. Almost as if you are forcing it.
The lack of hunting is the other issue, and the one I would be more willing to look elsewhere if you were partaking in.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Without getting into a ton of debate here, most hosts are clever enough to know people try to flavor game, and purposefully give flavor that doesn't automatically give up alliance. There are no french vanillas really on mtgs.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I don't particularly care for it. I don't know 100%, but it looks he just mimiced Cantripmancer with half his reads, and I can't assume he is serious if he read through and got you AND shadow is w/w. I guess I can see how people might scum read one of you, but not both. In particular:
Considering you think me a wolf with lngrrr, and you just aren't sure if we are w/w together, and I have also stated rhand is a light wolf read, why are you voting him? It feels like you just ignored all the observations and barely even mentioned Rhand.
In fact, in the world you just created, Rhand can only be a wolf if both me and tom are also wolves. That's the only real reason you gave to justify voting him.
Vote Vezok
Vezok/Highroller/Riku
Slight hedge on Rhand/Vaimes still. I don't think Rhand is a wolf with Vezok though, if it wasn't obvious from this post.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
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Let me slow it down for you then.
Sleepycheesecake seems worse and worse. Rhand too. Highroller is straight town. Tom also. I find him really transparent compared to his usual game.
Gj's interactions with Vaimes feel really forced. If he thinks vaimes is scum and my slot is also scum there is no way you convince him to join the lurker wagon. Seems really disingineous.
I think I'm somewhere around.
Cantrip/tom/highroller town
Eco/shadow townie
Riku more town than neutral
Vaimes neutral
Gj/lrrrgr scummy
Sleepycheesecake/rhand scum
Gj and lrrrgr should not be on the same position, but I have no idea how to split them. I liked a bit of the last posts from lrrgr which was surprising. It looked like trying to pocket tom, but at the same time it was too verbose to not look like a real defense on a slot he considers town or at least not scum for the reasons presented.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
The point I am making is you are just piling on these reasons to wolf me, rhand has one interaction you don't like with tom/highroller, so he is a wolf?!
The GJ way path to no lynching:
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@Vezok, I am not seeing Highroller obvious towniness. Could you explain what you're seeing?
Also, you gave Riku town points for interacting with people. Which posts? He has had a whopping 11 posts out of RVS, and one of those posts was "Hmmm". Not a single question in a post. So...?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Why is Rhand so wolfy, apart from the fact that he doesn't agree with your reads. (id est tom/highroller) and why is he lower on the list than people you have made wolf vibe posts from?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Vez is technically correct (the best kind of correct) in that highroller knows to hold back personally, but it doesn’t change the fact that he’s gone from advocating mass claim, to dismissing any sort of claim based on his own flavor being made up. It doesn’t track.
On top of that, he’s still strawmanning the actual argument I’ve made against him. I don’t care about the flavor of the game, I don’t subscribe to the game being breakable by it, or a mass claim. But highroller has self proported that he does, and the fact that he didn’t even bring it up is super suspicious. Additionally, he’s seemed very interested in just discrediting me and pushing the conversation in a different direction.
My gut instinct would be to say no, but he did the same thing with tom (who I think is town). So I could buy it, especially if he thinks he is digging into fertile grand (he himself said he is pushing rhand because it looks like it's gathering steam over cheesecake he has as the same level of wolfiness).
The GJ way path to no lynching:
The last point is why Riku has been sliding down in my reads.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Do you think Vezok / Highroller / tom can be a world?
That’s totally misplaced bravado on early D1 and I think sign of a mindset that isn’t town.
I would prefer one of their flips first.
If he is silly and his posts give you a headache, he is probably town.
If he is more serious, business like, he is a wolf.
Playstation is his most recent wolf game, that I recall. tom is also one of the few players I will actually use meta on, and only as a leaning rule. I think I mentioned this to him as well, but he has stuck to it.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I mean, he clearly did. Yes, his more recent read list backtracked and switched to he thinks lngree baited a town Shadow to claim, but come on tom....really?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Is there something in those pages that makes that not believable?