some combatants employed splayed fingers, which succesfully caught and defended against the open hand of paper but stood no chance against the sheer power of rock, creating the 3 way game we know today. But at least at first, what would become "scissors" had no longevity due to broken fingers, and the rules required refinement.
The active lurking is getting real. It's about as helpful as intentionally sowing chaos to try and bait unnatural reactions.
Just for the record I have a much higher tolerance for chaos style in shorter games where everything happens at an accelerated pace. Generating unnatural reactions is both more valuable and more likely to happen when things are moving faster.
Work has been ***** the last few days. I'll probably try and catch up soon-ish.
What's going on?
Ruma and Dice have been explaining why they aren't commenting. Cether is that new to a site type that reads purely. Not that they are technically new, just a blast from the past. Shadow and Cantrip are their inscrutable selves. At gunpoint I feel slightly better about Cantrip than Shadow.
Grape, talk to me about the relationship between Ruma and Deuce, breakdown the likelihood of each of the following worlds for me:
Ruma scum, Deuce scum
Ruma town, Deuce Town
Ruma scum, Deuce town
Ruma town, Deuce scum
Also, why do you find me inscrutable. I feel like I’ve been pretty open and readable this game.
I don't think anything Ruma has done says much about Deuce's alignment. And he's in that zone where I read literally anything he posts as townie because I'm grading on such a curve. I have a similar thing with Wisp.
On Deuce I'm having trouble sorting him in my head. The main thing worrying me is the lack of substance despite a solid volume of posts. The only opinion I know he has after ISO'ing him is that lurkers often get pushed and he thinks Ruma is a lurker. Mildly confident this is coming from scum who feels obligated to push something but doesn't know what to do. I can't get a feel for him well enough to say if that focus on Ruma is a bus or a push on town but based on my priors wrt Ruma I'm leaning towards him angling for a mislynch.
As for your delightful wolfy self I just can't read you. I thought I could at one point but I was wrong.
See wrt Ruma, I’m so sick of him doing this as either alignment that I’m not willing to let it go and get fooled. I do think you’re onto something with Deuce, and I actually think he’s a better shot at being scum.
Out of curiosity, when was it that you thought you could read me, and what shattered that myth?
See wrt Ruma, I’m so sick of him doing this as either alignment that I’m not willing to let it go and get fooled. I do think you’re onto something with Deuce, and I actually think he’s a better shot at being scum.
Out of curiosity, when was it that you thought you could read me, and what shattered that myth?
I don't remember a specific time when I thought I could, just remember not being as scared of you as your rep said I should be. What made me realize I couldn't was the hard pocket in Silence (or Mistborn, whichever it was where you targeted me multiple times as a neighborizer). I was just completely bamboozled.
And I feel similarly (and think it's showing more than I'd like) wrt Ruma but I'm trying really hard not to bring OoG into game. So I'm probably going to drop talking about Ruma much till he does something that feels alignment indicative.
Fair on Ruma, I feel like most of the game is lacking real content, and I kinda think both you and Cantrip are just town and the scum team is new/lurky.
I will concede that I am not particularly thrilled by reading you, as I’ve been pretty solidly fooled by you in some past games (pirates comes to mind), but I don’t think you’re scum.
Hmm so that looks like:
Shadow
Cantrip
Grape
Cether
Manasi
Ruma
Deuce
More importantly, while I thank you for the mafia primer, when I asked how you planned to sort people, I was asking how you were going to scumhunt this game. If your answer to that is "push for a wagon/lots of votes on a person until they are forced to defend themselves so I can decide if their defense is town or scum", then why aren't you doing that?
I really havent found much reason to blame someone.
Until now... I didnt realize that one is being much more silent than the others.
VOTE: RUMA
I think this vote is kinda scummy. I thought the way the wagon built up on Ruma was fine but I think this vote was super scummy.
Reads as someone trying to do something so capitalizing on thread topic.
I feel you've done nothing that makes me comfortable calling you town. Maybe I'm too afraid of your scum game but to me this is easily within your range.
I feel you've done nothing that makes me comfortable calling you town. Maybe I'm too afraid of your scum game but to me this is easily within your range.
Oh it’s absolutely in my range, I’m just appalled that you default to fearing my scum game over hoping for my town game. (Obviously not actually the case if you’re scum)
Still not seeing much from the lurk pool, but I'm not going to be able to post much next few days, so I guess I shouldn't throw stones. I think I'm ok with an Infinity lynch, but I'd really like to get some more interactions first.
Preferred Results (In Order of when claimed.):
Shadow: Prefers to Win. Post#16
Grape: Draw>Win>Loss. Post#48
Infinity: Lose>Win>Draw. Post#49
Cether: Win/Lose>Draw. Post#51
Cantrip: No Preference. Post#52
I also tried to think if this was going to help us and decided that it would probably be useful to backtrack to the info later, but honestly I didn't put a huge amount of thought deep into if this could full on backfire. Cantrip wont claim for [reason] but agrees. Later claims in post 52 no preference.
Thinks its possible that some R/P/S results for scum are the night kill. I think that's not going to happen since if scum R/S/P poor that could mean multiple nights without night kills and that wouldn't be part of the game.
Brings forward preferred result claim and gives preferred result immediately. Possibly to try and get people to do it since Shadow already gave it out, but I didn't really see a problem with the idea and think it will help us later.
Preferred Results (In Order of when claimed.):
Shadow: Prefers to Win. Post#16
Grape: Draw>Win>Loss. Post#48
Infinity: Lose>Win>Draw. Post#49
Cether: Win/Lose>Draw. Post#51
Cantrip: No Preference. Post#52
I also tried to think if this was going to help us and decided that it would probably be useful to backtrack to the info later, but honestly I didn't put a huge amount of thought deep into if this could full on backfire. Cantrip wont claim for [reason] but agrees. Later claims in post 52 no preference.
Thinks its possible that some R/P/S results for scum are the night kill. I think that's not going to happen since if scum R/S/P poor that could mean multiple nights without night kills and that wouldn't be part of the game.
Brings forward preferred result claim and gives preferred result immediately. Possibly to try and get people to do it since Shadow already gave it out, but I didn't really see a problem with the idea and think it will help us later.
Shadow worrying so much about my read on him is pinging.
Annoyingly I'm convinced Ruma is town here.
@Cether now that you've documented my waffle on claims (I'd still prefer a mass claim fwiw) walk me through your thought process on it. All I can track is "mass claims are bad, maybe a backtrack, kind of scummy."
I feel you've done nothing that makes me comfortable calling you town. Maybe I'm too afraid of your scum game but to me this is easily within your range.
Oh it’s absolutely in my range, I’m just appalled that you default to fearing my scum game over hoping for my town game. (Obviously not actually the case if you’re scum)
Like in the past you loved the fear and uncertainty your scum game sowed. Reacting to it with annoyance just feels slightly off to me.
@Cether now that you've documented my waffle on claims (I'd still prefer a mass claim fwiw) walk me through your thought process on it. All I can track is "mass claims are bad, maybe a backtrack, kind of scummy."
I think that a mass claim for the town is bad because:
1) If we tell the truth and the mafia lies, then the mafia is gonna gain information and we aren't.
2) If we lie and the mafia lies, then the information was meaningless and no one got anything out of it.
3) If the mafia results can be seen as town roles, like maybe no framer or no role blocker. Then everyone gains any of the info said true, but then the mafia can attack players they deem the strongest.
I don't like any of these scenarios:
1)Mafia gain information on roles.
2)No meaningful information.
3)Mafia gain information.
I think its only worth it if the scum roles are framer/role blocker and in that case they might fake claim a role that another player has and then we have information. Even then they can claim a weaker role that multiple players in a game could have and then we are back into some random choice of the three above scenarios, none of which benefit us.
I think a full claim is not beneficial.
The preferred result claim allows us to look back and see if players who have gained information on their ability gained it when they had a favorable R/P/S result. So at the start of day 2, maybe if we all post if we won/lost/drew, and that would essentially lock everyone into whether or not they had a successful ability use to keep players honest. It exposes no relevant role information so scum don't know who the best target is.
I guess that's my fault for not being specific, I was curious as what you can glean about my alignment based on my progression on claims.
On where I see differently on claims is that if we mass claim now and go into tonight with a priority list of which actions are most important to resolve we can basically force scum to play a town aligned way or out themselves.
Let's say we have a tracker, a vig, a doc, a RB, a bus driver, a commuter, and a neighborhood claimed. In that case let's pretend the commuter was the lynch today but flipped town. We could then decree that wins picked rock, losses pick scissors and priorities however town wanted. This would trap anyone who went against the will of the group and out them as scum. It would guarantee an informed NK for scum but would go a long way towards denying them abilities.
@Grape: couple things, I’m really not that concerned with your read on me, I’m concerned with your read on Ruma, and using myself as a comparison point. I think at best you could say that he’s done nothing AI. At best. So when you actively say you think he’s town, and before that, list him as more likely town than me in your opinion, it makes me annoyed. Heck, I’ll even contend that if Deucefinity is scum, Ruma is more likely town because they don’t seem aligned, but that’s basically nothing to do with Ruma, and is a preflip association. So can you point me to the post(s) that make you think Ruma is town? Or the post where he does something that could be considering game advancing?
Honestly, I think Deuce is a better lynch, but I’d rather lynch Ruma because letting him sit in here and basically not play this game is frustrating to me, and for you to sit there and call it town behavior makes no sense.
Wrt your massclaim idea, not that I’m suggesting it (yet, I might get there) but wouldn’t just having everyone declare their RPS choice before hand and not their role accomplish the same benefits without the downside of giving the scum all the info?
That just randomized which abilities fire. My idea might backfire horribly or it might give scum 0 wiggle room.
The quote that stood out on Ruma is advancing the game. And I can't point you to a single post that's doing that. But if I could I'd probably start arguing that it makes him scum unless it followed some reacting to his trolling in a way he felt was AI.
Like that's just the way he plays the game as town. He baits reactions and then tries to pick the non townie reactions out. Do I particularly enjoy that style of play? No, but it's his town game. Go read him in token mafia before I replaced him. It's much more traditional analytical mafia.
Preferred Results (In Order of when claimed.):
Shadow: Prefers to Win. Post#16
Grape: Draw>Win>Loss. Post#48
Infinity: Lose>Win>Draw. Post#49
Cether: Win/Lose>Draw. Post#51
Cantrip: No Preference. Post#52
I also tried to think if this was going to help us and decided that it would probably be useful to backtrack to the info later, but honestly I didn't put a huge amount of thought deep into if this could full on backfire. Cantrip wont claim for [reason] but agrees. Later claims in post 52 no preference.
Thinks its possible that some R/P/S results for scum are the night kill. I think that's not going to happen since if scum R/S/P poor that could mean multiple nights without night kills and that wouldn't be part of the game.
Brings forward preferred result claim and gives preferred result immediately. Possibly to try and get people to do it since Shadow already gave it out, but I didn't really see a problem with the idea and think it will help us later.
That just randomized which abilities fire. My idea might backfire horribly or it might give scum 0 wiggle room.
The quote that stood out on Ruma is advancing the game. And I can't point you to a single post that's doing that. But if I could I'd probably start arguing that it makes him scum unless it followed some reacting to his trolling in a way he felt was AI.
Like that's just the way he plays the game as town. He baits reactions and then tries to pick the non townie reactions out. Do I particularly enjoy that style of play? No, but it's his town game. Go read him in token mafia before I replaced him. It's much more traditional analytical mafia.
Hes not actually baiting reactions though, or doing anything. I’ve played with town!Ruma, he was an actual presence in otg4, and did things and actually engaged. He’s a shell here, and at best you could call it NAI, but I nailed him as scum acting not dissimilar from this in haiku Mafia, and then again in another game which escapes me. I’m familiar with his play, and to say this is his town game is just wrong. Maybe he’s town, but he’s not showing it. And it’s the kind of play I’d rather lynch than worry about later. Because as town, he knows better and I’m not particularly thrilled with rewarding the style of play here.
(Still think I’d lynch Deucefinity, but I’m ranting)
I guess that's my fault for not being specific, I was curious as what you can glean about my alignment based on my progression on claims.
My thoughts are that I believe a mass claim is against our interest and anyone who believes it is currently the best thing to do gets a - on them. At the time, you wanting the mass claim and then latter stepping off of it after seeing more peoples thoughts on it felt weird too me. It could also be that you looked at it further and deciding it was not in our interest. So I put you in the nonscum pile of my town/mafia list but at the bottom. (3rd most scummy.)
On where I see differently on claims is that if we mass claim now and go into tonight with a priority list of which actions are most important to resolve we can basically force scum to play a town aligned way or out themselves.
Let's say we have a tracker, a vig, a doc, a RB, a bus driver, a commuter, and a neighborhood claimed. In that case let's pretend the commuter was the lynch today but flipped town. We could then decree that wins picked rock, losses pick scissors and priorities however town wanted. This would trap anyone who went against the will of the group and out them as scum. It would guarantee an informed NK for scum but would go a long way towards denying them abilities.
Can you run an example of this out. so at Night 1 were gonna have 6 players.
How are we gonna select targets given the above claims? and what stops the mafia from killing someone they were supposed to target and targeting someone else instead?
In the above scenario, let's switch it to the Vig getting killed as I'm sure there isn't a vig in this game, I'd let the people using the abilities to chose their targets and I'd say as a town we should prioritize getting the Tracker, Doc, and commuter to fire in that order. With neighborizor taking priority over the rest if any of the first 3 are pair together as it's verifiable. The Busdriver causes too much chaos even as town so I'd have that player pledge to not fire.
How we'd solve from this is even though we're not able to verify everything we're going to gain a ton of info and scum don't have an easy shot. They can't shoot the commuter and the tracker is a risky one (unless they are paired against the doc but that's still a 1 for 1). In a game this small the tracker would have really decent odds to successfully track scum and if not verify someone else's ability use.
It won't always go this cleanly. But we'll often be able to craft plans that are decent for town. The biggest issue is if we have an ability we don't want to fire paired with one we do want to fire but it's a prefer lose/win situation.
@Grape, if we claim our picks, we can take actions as individuals with knowledge of who we can target successfully, without giving info away. For example, if I was a vig that had to win to kill, I could know who I could win against without having to actually claim that I’m a vig and thus paint a target upon myself for roleblocks/redirects/general shenanigans. It isn’t, as you’re thinking, firing blind. If we claimed everything, it would be actively detrimental to us in my estimation.
Additionally, I’ve realized that most of this game has been our back and forth on this (and other points), and I’m somewhat concerned that our voices are quashing others.
@Grape, if we claim our picks, we can take actions as individuals with knowledge of who we can target successfully, without giving info away. For example, if I was a vig that had to win to kill, I could know who I could win against without having to actually claim that I’m a vig and thus paint a target upon myself for roleblocks/redirects/general shenanigans. It isn’t, as you’re thinking, firing blind. If we claimed everything, it would be actively detrimental to us in my estimation.
Additionally, I’ve realized that most of this game has been our back and forth on this (and other points), and I’m somewhat concerned that our voices are quashing others.
Sure but that version is not doing anything to attempt to hold mafia accountable. They'll be able to fire their abilities with basically no accountability as it pertains to the mini game. Whereas if planned ahead of time, with claims we can at least attempt to corner them.
Like maybe it won't work. Tom is usually pretty good about making things not breakable, but in a 7 player game with this subgame it feels like we should be able to craft a sucessful night action plan that we'll be able to find disruptions in if there are any.
As to your other point that is definitely the case, but given how close we are to the deadline and with distraction and holidays looming I'm not inclined to stop posting.
Oh me neither, I’m more bemoaning then General quietness of the thread aside from us. And I just think we’ll have to agree to disagree, and I wouldn’t partake in a massclaim anyway. I kinda would like at least one or two people who are less trusted to claim their choice before the night.
Oh me neither, I’m more bemoaning then General quietness of the thread aside from us. And I just think we’ll have to agree to disagree, and I wouldn’t partake in a massclaim anyway. I kinda would like at least one or two people who are less trusted to claim their choice before the night.
Yeah we're definitely just talking in circles at this point.
Anyway it's probably too late in the game day for a mass claim and plan to make sense. Not enough time to come to a consensus and hammer out the details.
If I'm feeling motivated I'm going to try to do some ISO dives in a bit.
Lol. The non existent pressure due to not having good internet so I didn't know it was happening <3 Love you guys.
Now that you know it's happened what do you think of it?
I like that people tried to pressure me. I'm amused that the first person was shadow. I'm perplexed as to how people think I respond to weird pressure? I tend to react to pressure where people are pushing me as the scum read, not where they say 'placing pressure' as it feels... soft to me.
This is the sort of "nah nah you can't catch me" attitude I was talking about. It's not quite as prounced as I'd like it to be but it's real. Never lynching ruma today. 79 too.
Sorry for the lack of posting. Just got back from my family holiday romp, and had to tend to my own game first.
I'm pretty sure that everyone has expressed suspicion of Infinity/put them at the scummy end of their town-scum list. On the one hand, I'm like let's lynch already. On the other hand, I'm a little concerned that it's indicative of them being town. However, we're down to 3 days, I believe, and I sorta feel like it would be best to lynch someone (high preference for Infinity or Ruma, never Cether) and let N1 sort itself out. That's probably just me being lazy, but with Infinity's recent dearth of participation (and overall dearth of content), I think it's highly likely that they're scum.
There is not much in Manasi's ISO. The first half reads super fake. But the flurry of real posts actually feels it's trying to solve. I like 118 and the 133 134 double team feels like a natural thought. So not willing to lynch there. Not like lock town or anything but those feel like honest to goodness scum hunting in a game devoid of it.
On Cantrip there isn't a ton there that I feel strongly on. This vote on me is solid. My post was super premature and unsubstantiated. While it's the sort of thing scum would love to latch onto town would jump on it too and the fact that he didn't wield it like a cudgel is a good look.
I also like his reply to the very generic answer he got from Deuce in 60. I know I shouldn't but it just felt like a genuine attempt to get inside a player with a very different background's head rather than an attempt to filibuster.
Anyway I think as of 89 I like his mindset largely because of the direction of his vote. I wish there was progression connecting 60 to 89 but I'll take them as individuals.
And I'm out of steam to do Cether, Deuce, or Shadow.
Dang, Grape, if you're scum this game, I tip my hat to you. You certainly sound like you're trying to solve.
Any particular reason you started with Manasi and me rather than Infinideuce?
Also, I missed your 144. Why do you feel like Ruma's "nyeah, nyeah" is town-chutzpah and not scum-taunting?
I was working up in post count.
And for Ruma it's that I haven't seen him pull that sort as scum. Maybe I'm misjudging his meta but I think he's much more likely to pull those sort of shenanigans as town. By his own admission in other games he doesn't like to rock the boat as much as scum.
I’m not too much of a hunter but at least I can provide some data points or stir some up by making posts.
Vote Ruma
Ruma had no content until put onto L-1 and even after content doesn’t have any sustanance to it. Putting back into L-1. Ruma is what, 5 or so of the 90 posts and most are page 2?
Sorry about not posting too much. I’m always watching the game but sometimes I just don’t have anything relevant to post.
There isn't much in Cethers ISO. This post is a fun see what you want to see post though. When I was skimming through their posts I just nodded "pressuring Ruma with solid reasoning." but then it could also just be hopping onto a hit wagon for superficial reasons.
I still have a gut town read on Cether but I am definitely reevaluating after this.
More importantly, while I thank you for the mafia primer, when I asked how you planned to sort people, I was asking how you were going to scumhunt this game. If your answer to that is "push for a wagon/lots of votes on a person until they are forced to defend themselves so I can decide if their defense is town or scum", then why aren't you doing that?
I really havent found much reason to blame someone.
Until now... I didnt realize that one is being much more silent than the others.
Um... yeah. I see that your "********y fashion" is your "style", but we would like to try to progress, whether you are town or scum
These 3 posts are the crux of my vote. It just doesn't feel like a town progression. I'm worried it might be a cultural thing but I just don't think that first post is a town one. The performative "ohh look at this low poster." bit doesn't feel real to me.
Ruma (2) - infinity, cether
Infinity (1) - cantrip
Manasi (1) - grape
Not voting (3) - manasi, ruma, shadow
7 alive, 4 to lynch
Deadline 12/26
Prods delivered
The active lurking is getting real. It's about as helpful as intentionally sowing chaos to try and bait unnatural reactions.
Just for the record I have a much higher tolerance for chaos style in shorter games where everything happens at an accelerated pace. Generating unnatural reactions is both more valuable and more likely to happen when things are moving faster.
Work has been ***** the last few days. I'll probably try and catch up soon-ish.
What's going on?
Ruma and Dice have been explaining why they aren't commenting. Cether is that new to a site type that reads purely. Not that they are technically new, just a blast from the past. Shadow and Cantrip are their inscrutable selves. At gunpoint I feel slightly better about Cantrip than Shadow.
Ruma scum, Deuce scum
Ruma town, Deuce Town
Ruma scum, Deuce town
Ruma town, Deuce scum
Also, why do you find me inscrutable. I feel like I’ve been pretty open and readable this game.
I don't think anything Ruma has done says much about Deuce's alignment. And he's in that zone where I read literally anything he posts as townie because I'm grading on such a curve. I have a similar thing with Wisp.
On Deuce I'm having trouble sorting him in my head. The main thing worrying me is the lack of substance despite a solid volume of posts. The only opinion I know he has after ISO'ing him is that lurkers often get pushed and he thinks Ruma is a lurker. Mildly confident this is coming from scum who feels obligated to push something but doesn't know what to do. I can't get a feel for him well enough to say if that focus on Ruma is a bus or a push on town but based on my priors wrt Ruma I'm leaning towards him angling for a mislynch.
As for your delightful wolfy self I just can't read you. I thought I could at one point but I was wrong.
Out of curiosity, when was it that you thought you could read me, and what shattered that myth?
I don't remember a specific time when I thought I could, just remember not being as scared of you as your rep said I should be. What made me realize I couldn't was the hard pocket in Silence (or Mistborn, whichever it was where you targeted me multiple times as a neighborizer). I was just completely bamboozled.
And I feel similarly (and think it's showing more than I'd like) wrt Ruma but I'm trying really hard not to bring OoG into game. So I'm probably going to drop talking about Ruma much till he does something that feels alignment indicative.
Fair on Ruma, I feel like most of the game is lacking real content, and I kinda think both you and Cantrip are just town and the scum team is new/lurky.
I will concede that I am not particularly thrilled by reading you, as I’ve been pretty solidly fooled by you in some past games (pirates comes to mind), but I don’t think you’re scum.
Hmm so that looks like:
Shadow
Cantrip
Grape
Cether
Manasi
Ruma
Deuce
Anyway my list is similar I'm at:
Grape
Cether
Cantrip
Ruma
Shadow
Manasi
Deuce
I didn’t realize the mobile site is garbage. Did they update it? I don’t remember it being this bad.
I think this vote is kinda scummy. I thought the way the wagon built up on Ruma was fine but I think this vote was super scummy.
Reads as someone trying to do something so capitalizing on thread topic.
@Manasi: Think it could be a bus, or do you think Deucefinity and Ruma are unaligned?
If so, I think they're unaligned.
Yeah but he has that town sassiness that I haven't seen him project in a scum game yet.
You're above Manasi who was the true neutral point.
Still not seeing much from the lurk pool, but I'm not going to be able to post much next few days, so I guess I shouldn't throw stones. I think I'm ok with an Infinity lynch, but I'd really like to get some more interactions first.
More when I can.
Shadow: Prefers to Win. Post#16
Grape: Draw>Win>Loss. Post#48
Infinity: Lose>Win>Draw. Post#49
Cether: Win/Lose>Draw. Post#51
Cantrip: No Preference. Post#52
My Thoughts
I haven't really said anything relevant at this point in the game But the slightest of reads doesn't really mean anything either.
Against claiming preferred results, I think we should though so maybe something hiding there.
Proposed mass claim over the desired result claim previously talked about. I think its not in the best interest of us.
Wants full claim, not result claim.
Gets it now, or possible backpedal. Will think on it.
Fine with the idea now and posts their preferred result.
I agree with Grape here about the night kill mechanic.
Rumanashi
Overall not being helpful to the thread.
No substance.
I agree that mass claims are bad.
Voices that all claims bad day 1 even the partial claim.
Comes back to say nothing.
Cantrip
Pretty much what I thought too.
I also tried to think if this was going to help us and decided that it would probably be useful to backtrack to the info later, but honestly I didn't put a huge amount of thought deep into if this could full on backfire. Cantrip wont claim for [reason] but agrees. Later claims in post 52 no preference.
Infinity
How would that spread misinformation, the results mean nothing when not linked to the action so what would be the purpose of lying now?
Posts preferred result.
Thinks its possible that some R/P/S results for scum are the night kill. I think that's not going to happen since if scum R/S/P poor that could mean multiple nights without night kills and that wouldn't be part of the game.
Puts Ruma to L-1 becuase more silent than others.
Unvotes Ruma
Puts Ruma at L-1 Again.
Shadow
Doesn't have a read either, nothing has happened yet.
Brings forward preferred result claim and gives preferred result immediately. Possibly to try and get people to do it since Shadow already gave it out, but I didn't really see a problem with the idea and think it will help us later.
I like the reasoning here and it matches up like mine.
Wants to see what everyone wants to do on the mass claim and use those answers to try and hunt.
I agree with this.
Same line of thinking.
Manasi
Not much happening from Manasi
???
Town/Mafia List
Shadow
Cantrip
Manasi
Grape
Rumanashi
Infinity
I think Manasi needs to post more real posts and I think Ruma/Infinity are the scum team.
I think they are currently are best lynch targets.
I think Shadow and Infinity are the scum team so you amuse me
Annoyingly I'm convinced Ruma is town here.
@Cether now that you've documented my waffle on claims (I'd still prefer a mass claim fwiw) walk me through your thought process on it. All I can track is "mass claims are bad, maybe a backtrack, kind of scummy."
Like in the past you loved the fear and uncertainty your scum game sowed. Reacting to it with annoyance just feels slightly off to me.
I think that a mass claim for the town is bad because:
1) If we tell the truth and the mafia lies, then the mafia is gonna gain information and we aren't.
2) If we lie and the mafia lies, then the information was meaningless and no one got anything out of it.
3) If the mafia results can be seen as town roles, like maybe no framer or no role blocker. Then everyone gains any of the info said true, but then the mafia can attack players they deem the strongest.
I don't like any of these scenarios:
1)Mafia gain information on roles.
2)No meaningful information.
3)Mafia gain information.
I think its only worth it if the scum roles are framer/role blocker and in that case they might fake claim a role that another player has and then we have information. Even then they can claim a weaker role that multiple players in a game could have and then we are back into some random choice of the three above scenarios, none of which benefit us.
I think a full claim is not beneficial.
The preferred result claim allows us to look back and see if players who have gained information on their ability gained it when they had a favorable R/P/S result. So at the start of day 2, maybe if we all post if we won/lost/drew, and that would essentially lock everyone into whether or not they had a successful ability use to keep players honest. It exposes no relevant role information so scum don't know who the best target is.
On where I see differently on claims is that if we mass claim now and go into tonight with a priority list of which actions are most important to resolve we can basically force scum to play a town aligned way or out themselves.
Let's say we have a tracker, a vig, a doc, a RB, a bus driver, a commuter, and a neighborhood claimed. In that case let's pretend the commuter was the lynch today but flipped town. We could then decree that wins picked rock, losses pick scissors and priorities however town wanted. This would trap anyone who went against the will of the group and out them as scum. It would guarantee an informed NK for scum but would go a long way towards denying them abilities.
Honestly, I think Deuce is a better lynch, but I’d rather lynch Ruma because letting him sit in here and basically not play this game is frustrating to me, and for you to sit there and call it town behavior makes no sense.
Wrt your massclaim idea, not that I’m suggesting it (yet, I might get there) but wouldn’t just having everyone declare their RPS choice before hand and not their role accomplish the same benefits without the downside of giving the scum all the info?
The quote that stood out on Ruma is advancing the game. And I can't point you to a single post that's doing that. But if I could I'd probably start arguing that it makes him scum unless it followed some reacting to his trolling in a way he felt was AI.
Like that's just the way he plays the game as town. He baits reactions and then tries to pick the non townie reactions out. Do I particularly enjoy that style of play? No, but it's his town game. Go read him in token mafia before I replaced him. It's much more traditional analytical mafia.
Grape, what's your read on Shadow? I feel like you've said it and the thread is three pages but I'm really v lazy.
I think Ruma coming out of nowhere just to get a bit defensive (sec, will quote) is a little sketchy but I also don't.. really.. know..
Reads weirdly unsure if it's a me thing.
Still good going for infinity.
(Still think I’d lynch Deucefinity, but I’m ranting)
My thoughts are that I believe a mass claim is against our interest and anyone who believes it is currently the best thing to do gets a - on them. At the time, you wanting the mass claim and then latter stepping off of it after seeing more peoples thoughts on it felt weird too me. It could also be that you looked at it further and deciding it was not in our interest. So I put you in the nonscum pile of my town/mafia list but at the bottom. (3rd most scummy.)
Can you run an example of this out. so at Night 1 were gonna have 6 players.
How are we gonna select targets given the above claims? and what stops the mafia from killing someone they were supposed to target and targeting someone else instead?
How we'd solve from this is even though we're not able to verify everything we're going to gain a ton of info and scum don't have an easy shot. They can't shoot the commuter and the tracker is a risky one (unless they are paired against the doc but that's still a 1 for 1). In a game this small the tracker would have really decent odds to successfully track scum and if not verify someone else's ability use.
It won't always go this cleanly. But we'll often be able to craft plans that are decent for town. The biggest issue is if we have an ability we don't want to fire paired with one we do want to fire but it's a prefer lose/win situation.
Additionally, I’ve realized that most of this game has been our back and forth on this (and other points), and I’m somewhat concerned that our voices are quashing others.
Sure but that version is not doing anything to attempt to hold mafia accountable. They'll be able to fire their abilities with basically no accountability as it pertains to the mini game. Whereas if planned ahead of time, with claims we can at least attempt to corner them.
Like maybe it won't work. Tom is usually pretty good about making things not breakable, but in a 7 player game with this subgame it feels like we should be able to craft a sucessful night action plan that we'll be able to find disruptions in if there are any.
As to your other point that is definitely the case, but given how close we are to the deadline and with distraction and holidays looming I'm not inclined to stop posting.
Yeah we're definitely just talking in circles at this point.
Anyway it's probably too late in the game day for a mass claim and plan to make sense. Not enough time to come to a consensus and hammer out the details.
If I'm feeling motivated I'm going to try to do some ISO dives in a bit.
This is the sort of "nah nah you can't catch me" attitude I was talking about. It's not quite as prounced as I'd like it to be but it's real. Never lynching ruma today. 79 too.
I'm pretty sure that everyone has expressed suspicion of Infinity/put them at the scummy end of their town-scum list. On the one hand, I'm like let's lynch already. On the other hand, I'm a little concerned that it's indicative of them being town. However, we're down to 3 days, I believe, and I sorta feel like it would be best to lynch someone (high preference for Infinity or Ruma, never Cether) and let N1 sort itself out. That's probably just me being lazy, but with Infinity's recent dearth of participation (and overall dearth of content), I think it's highly likely that they're scum.
On Cantrip there isn't a ton there that I feel strongly on. This vote on me is solid. My post was super premature and unsubstantiated. While it's the sort of thing scum would love to latch onto town would jump on it too and the fact that he didn't wield it like a cudgel is a good look.
I also like his reply to the very generic answer he got from Deuce in 60. I know I shouldn't but it just felt like a genuine attempt to get inside a player with a very different background's head rather than an attempt to filibuster.
Anyway I think as of 89 I like his mindset largely because of the direction of his vote. I wish there was progression connecting 60 to 89 but I'll take them as individuals.
And I'm out of steam to do Cether, Deuce, or Shadow.
Any particular reason you started with Manasi and me rather than Infinideuce?
Also, I missed your 144. Why do you feel like Ruma's "nyeah, nyeah" is town-chutzpah and not scum-taunting?
I was working up in post count.
And for Ruma it's that I haven't seen him pull that sort as scum. Maybe I'm misjudging his meta but I think he's much more likely to pull those sort of shenanigans as town. By his own admission in other games he doesn't like to rock the boat as much as scum.
There isn't much in Cethers ISO. This post is a fun see what you want to see post though. When I was skimming through their posts I just nodded "pressuring Ruma with solid reasoning." but then it could also just be hopping onto a hit wagon for superficial reasons.
I still have a gut town read on Cether but I am definitely reevaluating after this.
These 3 posts are the crux of my vote. It just doesn't feel like a town progression. I'm worried it might be a cultural thing but I just don't think that first post is a town one. The performative "ohh look at this low poster." bit doesn't feel real to me.
And on that note Merry Christmas to all who celebrate it! Hope you have a safe and happy holiday!