Because Ruma was jailed and no one died, either Ruma is the scum or Ruma was the target of the attack.
I mean there is also the scenario where Shadow claims jailer but actually is just the scum but didn't fire.
Unless the redirect/bus still goes through even if you would die at night.
So if we no lynch and constantly jail Ruma, and no one dies, can we just assume its Ruma?
Because Ruma was jailed and no one died, either Ruma is the scum or Ruma was the target of the attack.
I mean there is also the scenario where Shadow claims jailer but actually is just the scum but didn't fire.
Unless the redirect/bus still goes through even if you would die at night.
So if we no lynch and constantly jail Ruma, and no one dies, can we just assume its Ruma?
Nope, because mafia dont have to kill. Something thats utilised in micros a lot.
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I am also called Riku. I tend to prefer being called riku.
So in the scenario we do that and the scum chooses not to kill or is unable to kill do to being jailed, we can at least gain information using the other four remaining players abilities though right?
So in the scenario we do that and the scum chooses not to kill or is unable to kill do to being jailed, we can at least gain information using the other four remaining players abilities though right?
If there are other (any) information roles.
Really it reads like Ruma trying to explain what happened.
I'm torn on whether or not it's worth it to force Cantrip to claim. I'm strongly leaning no.
I can think of one other possibility for why we didn't have a kill last Night, and it pertains to my ability, but it's prooooooobably unlikely? Like, I don't *think* that Tom would set the game up like this, and even if he would have, he wouldn't have with a doc/bodyguard + jailer? On the off chance that that's the reason there was no kill, though, I'd rather not claim.
Oh, right. You didn't choose; it was the result of the RPS. Sorry.
*puts on modgaming hat*
So a proposed role that cops if one result, vanilla-izes if another, nothing (I'm guessing?) if a third. I'd say that's possible. If you get the result you want, you learn the alignment. If you don't, it's either nothing or you simplify the game (possibly nerfing scum if you've chosen wisely, possibly nerfing your teammate if not). So...sure. Possible.
*puts on behavioral hat*
Your posts D1 could certainly be interpreted as you trying to avoid the NK, which would match a cop role. Your actual posting/lack of scumhunting would normally point me to you being scum...but it sounds like your standard meta is to act that way, so I don't know how much that throws things out of whack.
You almost certainly have to be sorted before mylo, though. I feel like it's still a good idea to lynch you and hope it ends the game.
Oh, right. You didn't choose; it was the result of the RPS. Sorry.
*puts on modgaming hat*
So a proposed role that cops if one result, vanilla-izes if another, nothing (I'm guessing?) if a third. I'd say that's possible. If you get the result you want, you learn the alignment. If you don't, it's either nothing or you simplify the game (possibly nerfing scum if you've chosen wisely, possibly nerfing your teammate if not). So...sure. Possible.
*puts on behavioral hat*
Your posts D1 could certainly be interpreted as you trying to avoid the NK, which would match a cop role. Your actual posting/lack of scumhunting would normally point me to you being scum...but it sounds like your standard meta is to act that way, so I don't know how much that throws things out of whack.
You almost certainly have to be sorted before mylo, though. I feel like it's still a good idea to lynch you and hope it ends the game.
As a power role, I tend to go a bit too far in being useless due to fear of night kill. ;-; You can check past games of me with a power role and you'll see what I mean.
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I am also called Riku. I tend to prefer being called riku.
@Ruma I find it hard to believe you were genuinely baiting reactions given someone had given mechanical evidence that you were likely scum. What possible reaction can you generate at that point that hasn't already been justified by information in the thread.
Like I really want to believe you here given how far out I stuck my own neck for you yesterday but I just don't.
@Ruma I find it hard to believe you were genuinely baiting reactions given someone had given mechanical evidence that you were likely scum. What possible reaction can you generate at that point that hasn't already been justified by information in the thread.
Like I really want to believe you here given how far out I stuck my own neck for you yesterday but I just don't.
?
What mechanical evidence? That there was no night kill? in a micro? Where there are other reasons that no night kill happen? Where optimum strategy is not nightkilling, given it's a micro. There is no 'mechanical evidence'. There is a theory that was put forth, but mechanical evidence is a stretch.
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I am also called Riku. I tend to prefer being called riku.
See the thing is I disagree with your premise. I accept that people do no kill often in micros. I think 90+% of the time it's fps. So I do think a JK claim is evidence. It's not facts but it's evidence. It immediately puts the 2 of you under the microscope. Sure it could be one of Cether or Manasi gambiting but that is why they need to claim.
I well given vanilla-izer is a role I'd expect from scum not town in a mod gaming sense I'm more than happy to guess shadow blocked Ruma from making the kill.
Even if it was a protect or Shadow gambiting I like our odds after tonight.
I think we need a mass claim and a plan for tonight. I'm happy to let Cantrip do his own thing and be exempt from that. Without more information I think I should target Shadow and win. Shadow should block whichever of Manasi and Cether he judges better and should probably have the win over either of them.
Grape this was your plan right?
So your going to Doctor Shadow.
Shadow will cage Manasi/Me.
Cantrip does whatever.
The more I think about it; Grape why would you doctor me? In the bizzaro world where Ruma flips town, I’m definitely fighting for my life tomorrow, it seems unlikely that I’d get killed.
The more I think about it; Grape why would you doctor me? In the bizzaro world where Ruma flips town, I’m definitely fighting for my life tomorrow, it seems unlikely that I’d get killed.
Because if you're town they can't afford to leave both of us alive. And I'm already very likely to be the NK tonight.
If you are scum here which a small part of me believes then you confirming your role and targeting one of Cether/Manasi clears whichever of them you block in the event of a kill. And if no one dies we can lynch you and cut off options. I'm confident that you can't fool your way to a F3 win as a claimed JK this early so protecting you keeps a stronger role alive.
Alternative proposal: we no lynch today, I protect Shadow and Ruma cops Shadow.
Pretty sure that just wins.
...how does Ruma not just kill you in that scenario?
Also, I follow your doc logic well enough.
He does but we clear you and your target in that world. Giving us 2 confirmed town (plus Cantrip making it effectively 3) with 5 alive. We just always win in that world.
If we lynch him here and he's town we have 3 question marks tomorrow as opposed to two if we no lynch. He could just not kill me but them there is a doctor alive and I think I'm pretty close to cantrip level of cleared here.
Hmm. I mean, if we lynch Ruma and he’s town, I get to then jail one of the other two question marks and it’s at worst me vs the person I didn’t jail if there is a kill. But...I just don’t think it’s anyone but Ruma here. I get where your plan stems, but I’m not really interested in no lynching; if Ruma uses his vanilla shot on me, I’m asking Tom if that would effectively stop my jail ability, but if it did, we are in no better position than we are now.
Hmm. I mean, if we lynch Ruma and he’s town, I get to then jail one of the other two question marks and it’s at worst me vs the person I didn’t jail if there is a kill. But...I just don’t think it’s anyone but Ruma here. I get where your plan stems, but I’m not really interested in no lynching; if Ruma uses his vanilla shot on me, I’m asking Tom if that would effectively stop my jail ability, but if it did, we are in no better position than we are now.
Considering that he claimed your JK blocked his shot I am very confident yours would fire first. Otherwise you'd be vanilla'd now.
And the reason I like this plan is my head says it's just ruma, but I can't shake my gut saying Ruma is town here. Plus I have lingering doubts about you.
Hmm. I mean, if we lynch Ruma and he’s town, I get to then jail one of the other two question marks and it’s at worst me vs the person I didn’t jail if there is a kill. But...I just don’t think it’s anyone but Ruma here. I get where your plan stems, but I’m not really interested in no lynching; if Ruma uses his vanilla shot on me, I’m asking Tom if that would effectively stop my jail ability, but if it did, we are in no better position than we are now.
The thing I don't like at all about this strategy is there is just no way to get any insight into you from it. I still feel the way you played D1 was reasonably likely to be scum you and this clears you and potentially another player. There just isn't a downside (short of Ruma going rogue). If you get vanilla'd and your target confirms they were JK'd I'd be happy to spend one of our two lynches on Ruma at that point. Not now though.
Hmm. I mean, if we lynch Ruma and he’s town, I get to then jail one of the other two question marks and it’s at worst me vs the person I didn’t jail if there is a kill. But...I just don’t think it’s anyone but Ruma here. I get where your plan stems, but I’m not really interested in no lynching; if Ruma uses his vanilla shot on me, I’m asking Tom if that would effectively stop my jail ability, but if it did, we are in no better position than we are now.
Considering that he claimed your JK blocked his shot I am very confident yours would fire first. Otherwise you'd be vanilla'd now.
And the reason I like this plan is my head says it's just ruma, but I can't shake my gut saying Ruma is town here. Plus I have lingering doubts about you.
Thats not true though, he didn’t Vanilla-ize me because he lost RPS (unless he wants to come in here and claim he picked something other than paper), I have no actual idea what would happen.
Win/draw/lose = jail/nothing/Vanilla-ize myself. This is part of why I waited so long to claim, because I know absolutely that I wasn’t vanilla’d, which means had he claimed rock I could have caught him in that lie as well.
Grape, I get that you’re really trying to find the best play here, and it’s commendable, I just don’t think it’s smart when there are so many “what if” scenarios. And if Ruma is town, I think we need to know now and let me worry about that tomorrow.
I’m almost certain I wouldn’t. I wasn’t even told if I won, just that I wasn’t vanilla.
There’s another small fly in the ointment of the plan too, and something that just points me more toward Ruma being scum. My jail ability only works on kills, no other ability. I didn’t want to claim this because it’s more info than is even necessary to win the game, and it’s just weird and different than any other jailer I’ve played.
See this is all setting up for a classic shadowlancerx bluffing his way through with a ridiculous claim.
I think I'd rather not lynch the claimed cop and see who plays ball. If Shadow ends up vanilla and there is a body (me or Cantrip) tomorrow then we know for a fact it's 1 of Ruma, Shadow, and his target. If Ruma says shadow is town that clears 1 of the three and we know it's either ruma lying or Shadows target lying and we have enough lynches. This protects us from the scum shadow worlds and basically can't backfire.
If Ruma refuses to give a clear answer tomorrow we just lynch him with great prejudice and win.
@Grape: Three things, you’re already protected from scum!me, by lynching me tomorrow, and if we have another no death night, then we gain another lynch, so then you’re even protected from one of Manasi/Cether as well. Second, if I was scum, I’d actually have the ability to block nonkill actions, so I could “prove” that part of my role and not feel the need to fake claim, because if I was scum I just gave up my ability to block someone. Third, why hasn’t Ruma voted for me?
Like the only relevant part of the JK for my plan is if we get lucky and block the kill. It's not a huge deal if someone vanilla's you. The worst case scenario is Ruma has to lock clear you and is a 33/33/33 with manasi and Cether. And we get to lynch two of those 3.
At this point I'm actually like pretty sure it's just you and you're trying to wiggle out of a noose by getting us to fast lynch Ruma here.
It probably is just Ruma, but I'm just confused as to why you're so resistant to taking a safer route to victory. I don't see any way that this can lose but I can see routes where lynching Ruma today does.
I'm not really protected from scum!Shadow by lynching him tomorrow as there isn't a strong reason to think it's sucm shadow vs scum Manasi or Ruma. And I only get 1 more lynch if we lynch Ruma now and go into tomorrow with multiple question marks. I don't love the crap shoot of having to sort out you/Manasi/Cether without a ton of reliable info tomorrow.
On your second point you could just be lying about your role all together. Scum you skipped a kill last night in that world and you have an unrelated role like a role cop or something unprovable.
Third why does Ruma do anything? It's not an alignment indicative thing in my eyes.
Like I get that it's probably just me refusing to see things because I want to be right about Ruma, but Shadow's mechanical arguments are weak here. I'd rather not rush it and take things as carefully as possible.
If we no lynch, we throw away the opportunity of gaining a lynch by stopping another kill. And that’s if Ruma is even town, which he’s just not.
I completely understand what you're saying and Ruma's play today screams scum to me. But mechanically he's trapped tomorrow by this. He has no outs if we play it this way.
And we don't need another lynch. This route gives us two lynches and two question marks unless you're worried about Cantrip.
No lynching here leads to 3 clears (if we're counting Cantrip) and two questions. Those numbers always win.
It's not about salvaging pride on a bad read, it's about covering all the bases.
From where I sit, having basically a confirmed scum in front of me, it can only get worse. I don’t think your plan is bad, but I also think it’s not catergorically optimal. The next two lynches are Ruma and me, nothing changes that; and I just can’t help but think you’re acting in such a way that is just trying to save face.
Plus, the idea of winning this without a single town death absolutely thrills me.
Nothing about the idea of town!Ruma makes sense. His behavior yesterday was scummy, which is NAI for him at best. I jailed him last night and there was no kill (which I actually kind of did because I sort of thought he could be town and I wanted to remove that ?). He showed up 2 hours after I finally got sick of waiting for him to come in here and check in. He claimed he tried to Vanilla me, and then claims cop as an afterthought. He’s not actually giving any sort of thoughts here, or opening up, when his cageyness yesterday was due “to trying to hide that he was a PR”.
Ruma (2): shadow, cantrip
Not voting: cether, grape, manasi, ruma
6 alive, 4 to lynch
Deadline 1/6
I mean there is also the scenario where Shadow claims jailer but actually is just the scum but didn't fire.
Unless the redirect/bus still goes through even if you would die at night.
So if we no lynch and constantly jail Ruma, and no one dies, can we just assume its Ruma?
Nope, because mafia dont have to kill. Something thats utilised in micros a lot.
If there are other (any) information roles.
Really it reads like Ruma trying to explain what happened.
I'm torn on whether or not it's worth it to force Cantrip to claim. I'm strongly leaning no.
I find out the alignment of the player, yes?
Why would you claim the vanilla part first?
I don't really understand the first question, but the reason I chose shadow is I've played games with him before.
@Grap: To gauge reactions, it didn't help
*puts on modgaming hat*
So a proposed role that cops if one result, vanilla-izes if another, nothing (I'm guessing?) if a third. I'd say that's possible. If you get the result you want, you learn the alignment. If you don't, it's either nothing or you simplify the game (possibly nerfing scum if you've chosen wisely, possibly nerfing your teammate if not). So...sure. Possible.
*puts on behavioral hat*
Your posts D1 could certainly be interpreted as you trying to avoid the NK, which would match a cop role. Your actual posting/lack of scumhunting would normally point me to you being scum...but it sounds like your standard meta is to act that way, so I don't know how much that throws things out of whack.
You almost certainly have to be sorted before mylo, though. I feel like it's still a good idea to lynch you and hope it ends the game.
As a power role, I tend to go a bit too far in being useless due to fear of night kill. ;-; You can check past games of me with a power role and you'll see what I mean.
Like I really want to believe you here given how far out I stuck my own neck for you yesterday but I just don't.
?
What mechanical evidence? That there was no night kill? in a micro? Where there are other reasons that no night kill happen? Where optimum strategy is not nightkilling, given it's a micro. There is no 'mechanical evidence'. There is a theory that was put forth, but mechanical evidence is a stretch.
'
What would propose us doing in this situation?
That no kills are optimal in micros. I think they are almost always wrong but people convince themselves that it's a good play.
Grape this was your plan right?
So your going to Doctor Shadow.
Shadow will cage Manasi/Me.
Cantrip does whatever.
I don't wanna claim
It's a boring town role that I'll never win tbh. nothing/neighborize/nothing
rip
I don't really believe it's Ruma but Occams razor suggests it is. I'm a shrug. I'm willing to bet the game on Cantrip being town.
Because if you're town they can't afford to leave both of us alive. And I'm already very likely to be the NK tonight.
If you are scum here which a small part of me believes then you confirming your role and targeting one of Cether/Manasi clears whichever of them you block in the event of a kill. And if no one dies we can lynch you and cut off options. I'm confident that you can't fool your way to a F3 win as a claimed JK this early so protecting you keeps a stronger role alive.
Pretty sure that just wins.
Also, I follow your doc logic well enough.
He does but we clear you and your target in that world. Giving us 2 confirmed town (plus Cantrip making it effectively 3) with 5 alive. We just always win in that world.
Considering that he claimed your JK blocked his shot I am very confident yours would fire first. Otherwise you'd be vanilla'd now.
And the reason I like this plan is my head says it's just ruma, but I can't shake my gut saying Ruma is town here. Plus I have lingering doubts about you.
The thing I don't like at all about this strategy is there is just no way to get any insight into you from it. I still feel the way you played D1 was reasonably likely to be scum you and this clears you and potentially another player. There just isn't a downside (short of Ruma going rogue). If you get vanilla'd and your target confirms they were JK'd I'd be happy to spend one of our two lynches on Ruma at that point. Not now though.
Vote: No Lynch
Grape: Choose Paper N1 vs Cantrip (P167), Doctor/Bodyguard/Nothing(P171)
Cether: Nonprotective Role (P176), Chose Scissors (P196)
Cantrip: Know Grape didn't win vs self (P177)
Manasi: Targetted Cantrip w Scissors (P178/185), Nothing/Neighborize/Nothing (P271)
Shadow: Picked Scissors (P200) Jailed Ruma last night. (P230)
Ruma: Targetted Shadow (P241), Cop/Vanillizer/Nothing (P244)
Did I miss the rest of Shadow's abilities or was that not claimed.
Based on 16 Shadow either only JK's on a win or is lying. He also didn't correct my plan predicated on him winning in 242.
Win/draw/lose = jail/nothing/Vanilla-ize myself. This is part of why I waited so long to claim, because I know absolutely that I wasn’t vanilla’d, which means had he claimed rock I could have caught him in that lie as well.
I get your resistance to the plan now though. Would you be notified of your result causing you to be vanilla'd?
If you would be told "Shadow you lost the RPS game and are now vanilla in a different way from Ruma vanilla'ing you then the plan still works.
There’s another small fly in the ointment of the plan too, and something that just points me more toward Ruma being scum. My jail ability only works on kills, no other ability. I didn’t want to claim this because it’s more info than is even necessary to win the game, and it’s just weird and different than any other jailer I’ve played.
I think I'd rather not lynch the claimed cop and see who plays ball. If Shadow ends up vanilla and there is a body (me or Cantrip) tomorrow then we know for a fact it's 1 of Ruma, Shadow, and his target. If Ruma says shadow is town that clears 1 of the three and we know it's either ruma lying or Shadows target lying and we have enough lynches. This protects us from the scum shadow worlds and basically can't backfire.
If Ruma refuses to give a clear answer tomorrow we just lynch him with great prejudice and win.
Vote no lynch with me.
At this point I'm actually like pretty sure it's just you and you're trying to wiggle out of a noose by getting us to fast lynch Ruma here.
I'm not really protected from scum!Shadow by lynching him tomorrow as there isn't a strong reason to think it's sucm shadow vs scum Manasi or Ruma. And I only get 1 more lynch if we lynch Ruma now and go into tomorrow with multiple question marks. I don't love the crap shoot of having to sort out you/Manasi/Cether without a ton of reliable info tomorrow.
On your second point you could just be lying about your role all together. Scum you skipped a kill last night in that world and you have an unrelated role like a role cop or something unprovable.
Third why does Ruma do anything? It's not an alignment indicative thing in my eyes.
Like I get that it's probably just me refusing to see things because I want to be right about Ruma, but Shadow's mechanical arguments are weak here. I'd rather not rush it and take things as carefully as possible.
I completely understand what you're saying and Ruma's play today screams scum to me. But mechanically he's trapped tomorrow by this. He has no outs if we play it this way.
And we don't need another lynch. This route gives us two lynches and two question marks unless you're worried about Cantrip.
No lynching here leads to 3 clears (if we're counting Cantrip) and two questions. Those numbers always win.
It's not about salvaging pride on a bad read, it's about covering all the bases.
Plus, the idea of winning this without a single town death absolutely thrills me.
Nothing about the idea of town!Ruma makes sense. His behavior yesterday was scummy, which is NAI for him at best. I jailed him last night and there was no kill (which I actually kind of did because I sort of thought he could be town and I wanted to remove that ?). He showed up 2 hours after I finally got sick of waiting for him to come in here and check in. He claimed he tried to Vanilla me, and then claims cop as an afterthought. He’s not actually giving any sort of thoughts here, or opening up, when his cageyness yesterday was due “to trying to hide that he was a PR”.
All of this is just happenstance?