I don't know how much clearer I need to be to make it obvious I'm talking about your proposal and not just your claim. That's pretty clear language.
It's not, and also
There is nothing here to single rezombied out on. While people might have debated my logic for pressing a mass claim, no one has argued that I was mafia because of it, so it’s not like rezombied accepting my posts as indicating that I’m town somehow separates him from the pack. Moreover, he’s backed off from vezok also, indicating he was basing his case off an initial suspicion, which I read as somewhat understandable.
But by all means keep insisting I'm lying and not reading the thread while not taking the time to read my posts. I wasn't going to touch you acting like I was jumping on Terry late when I think I've literally been the only person to push him and have been doing it since D1.
Dude, I'm well aware of post #61. But, much like your attempting to throw suspicion on KA for his making an entirely correct statement, it's pretty clear to me you're doing the same thing to Terry, priming the way to jump back should you need to.
Also:
Also I completely disagree that "I don't care" is a valid response in this game.
I don't really care what Vez says
Yeah, it's low hanging fruit I know, but I'm not going to let you get away with blatant lies and falsehoods.
And even if I actually thought that my post would influence anyone, I'd still do it as any alignment as I have a strong history of suggesting different types of mass-claims early game even though almost the entire MTGS playerbase considers it a bad idea.
I don't care. "I do this every game" isn't really a valid argument to me right now.
Simply put, it is impossible for me to control the actions of other players
I might exasperate people with this, but I'll hardly make them claim if they didn't really want to.
Right, youre not telling anyone to claim. But it looks like you're trying to get people to give up information about their roles.
And even if I actually thought that my post would influence anyone, I'd still do it as any alignment as I have a strong history of suggesting different types of mass-claims early game even though almost the entire MTGS playerbase considers it a bad idea.
I don't care. "I do this every game" isn't really a valid argument to me right now.
Well it should influence you.
I'm probably not gonna go do the research, so you saying 'i do this every game' doesn't matter to me.
I have a question for you rezombied: Why do you think people are voting you right now?
I don't care.
I don't care is not an answer to the posed question. I didn't ask you "how do you feel about people voting you?", but "why".
Either say that you don't know why people are voting you, even though I was asking for an educated guess or say that you don't care enough to answer my question.
It might not be the answer you want, but it is an answer.
@Vez Ok. What do you think of the mindset behind Rez's line of questioning here?
I can't be certain of it right now. That why I'm prodding him with questions and trying to keep the conversation going. It could come from bad intentioned scum or townie who's tunneling. All I know is that the reason for scumreading me is made up after my questioning and I've done similar stuff in the past as town when tunnelling on someone.
You didnt ask me any questions in the post you responded to me.
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So the first part is lot's of shutting down and non answers. Deciding that what Vez does or doens't do every game is irrelevant is a sweeping denial of engagement.
Then the reply of saying he didn't ask questions is on the fuzzy line between a lie and a misread. While it doesn't have a question mark the end of Terry's 39 pretty clearly was asking for a follow up. Which just shut him down. I know that won't sway you because you've decided two page 1 "serious" votes are irrelevant and not worth noticing but again strongly disagree with that position that I struggle to articulate it.
How can you say it's not important when someone else gave reasoning as to why that type of information is actually important?
Then he claims to care about intent but never for a second was suspicious of you calling for a mass claim when all his paranoia of Vez came from the fact that he was worried it would lead to more claims. But doesn't explain it at all. Just a dismissive "I care about intent."
I don't know how much clearer I need to be to make it obvious I'm talking about your proposal and not just your claim. That's pretty clear language.
It's not, and also
There is nothing here to single rezombied out on. While people might have debated my logic for pressing a mass claim, no one has argued that I was mafia because of it, so it’s not like rezombied accepting my posts as indicating that I’m town somehow separates him from the pack. Moreover, he’s backed off from vezok also, indicating he was basing his case off an initial suspicion, which I read as somewhat understandable.
But by all means keep insisting I'm lying and not reading the thread while not taking the time to read my posts. I wasn't going to touch you acting like I was jumping on Terry late when I think I've literally been the only person to push him and have been doing it since D1.
Dude, I'm well aware of post #61. But, much like your attempting to throw suspicion on KA for his making an entirely correct statement, it's pretty clear to me you're doing the same thing to Terry, priming the way to jump back should you need to.
Also:
Also I completely disagree that "I don't care" is a valid response in this game.
I don't really care what Vez says
Yeah, it's low hanging fruit I know, but I'm not going to let you get away with blatant lies and falsehoods.
Come on now. You're better than that. Look at my I don't care in context. I'm using it to say that Vez has an a skewed view of his own meta. Not that I think the issue isn't worth considering. My point is that he reads defensively in every game he's in. And that this wasn't really out of character for him. Even if it was an attempt to be so. His intent isn't really relevant for reading people's reactions to it. Because they don't know his intent.
There is nothing here to single rezombied out on. While people might have debated my logic for pressing a mass claim, no one has argued that I was mafia because of it, so it’s not like rezombied accepting my posts as indicating that I’m town somehow separates him from the pack. Moreover, he’s backed off from vezok also, indicating he was basing his case off an initial suspicion, which I read as somewhat understandable.
Right but he had set himself apart from the pack on Vez. The pack didn't suspect him. You both were in his "I care about intent" view attempting to reach the same goal, more people claiming.
His backing off is irrelevant to the point that it's strange given his stated care about people claiming that he never expressed any interest in you beyond "I'm still interested in Highroller's response to Bur."
Come on now. You're better than that. Look at my I don't care in context. I'm using it to say that Vez has an a skewed view of his own meta. Not that I think the issue isn't worth considering. My point is that he reads defensively in every game he's in. And that this wasn't really out of character for him. Even if it was an attempt to be so. His intent isn't really relevant for reading people's reactions to it. Because they don't know his intent.
This is the most nonsensical attempt at saving face I have ever seen.
You cannot argue that KA saying that vezok is overdefensive is untrue when vezok himself says that KA is right. If vezok himself is saying he was intentionally being overdefensive, then the matter is settled. You're wrong. Talking more is not going to buy this one back.
Look at my I don't care in context. I'm using it to say that Vez has an a skewed view of his own meta. Not that I think the issue isn't worth considering. My point is that he reads defensively in every game he's in. And that this wasn't really out of character for him. Even if it was an attempt to be so. His intent isn't really relevant for reading people's reactions to it. Because they don't know his intent.
My point isn't about whether or not Vez felt he was being defensive it's about whether or not someone familiar with Vez's play should think it's vote worthy or even noticeably more defensive than he usually is.
Some of highroller's points are completely off base. I don't feel like grape is lying in his posts. Those are some bad attacks imo.
I do like the attack on the discrepancy in the KA attack, because you can't claim I was overdefensive when I made a big post about a mostly random vote that I could have simply ignored.
@grape: Can you provide a readlist or at least top 3 scum?
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I find precisely nothing about what Highroller is posting about GF persuasive.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
But the next lowest hanging poster is Bur, so, looking at that now.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
First post of Bur's that I didn't like was his "reaction" post to Highroller claiming right out of the gate.
Quote from Bur »
Why did you decide to claim this, instead of being just like "well, if someone cares about that, they'll probably figure it out/ask the mod"?
So, theorytime, my feeling about things like this is that (assuming for the moment Highroller is Town) the immediate scum-reaction to a Townie claiming unforced early on D1 is going to be to scold that Townie. Because (they think) scolding is the "Town" thing to do. Why is the Townie claiming! Why are you giving free information to the scum! Bad Townie! Sometimes they might throw in a warning to everyone else not to follow suit. Because they are being such good and conscientious Townies. I'm exaggerating for effect, but that's the jist, and Bur's reaction was along those lines. It's far from conclusive, because real Townies can absolutely scold as well, but that's what I'm looking at.
I would say Bur's vote on Rezombied is NAL. Fine for what it was. Rezombied vote was bad. Could do as any alignment.
Bur then has exams and no time for this game for a while. That's also pretty NAL.
Then Bur says "I hope Iso is not serious in #54," when #54 is clearly a tongue-in-cheek post of Iso's (I don't care if Iso had/has genuine suspicious about Highroller/Terry, the post was tongue-in-cheek and could not actually be taken seriously by anyone). Moos (of all people) calls him on this (saying it was "weird") and Bur seems to double down on it, asking Moos whether he thinks Iso is right or not. That itself seems an off reaction. Moos wasn't saying anything about Highroller/Terry. He was saying "That statement you (Bur) made about hoping Iso wasn't serious was weird" (because how could anyone be taking it seriously) - and he was right about that.
He does a little more "scolding" by telling Highroller to stop talking so much about game mechanics and start giving more opinions on who is Town and who is Mafia. That's largely NAL, but absolutely a thing scum do, again, to appear to be acting like good, helpful Townies.
And then Bur called one of my posts a "big pile of empty words and excuses."
So, he's clearly scum.
Vote: Bur
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@Vez: What makes you think Cantrip’s 160 list is “safe?” What makes you think the daykill is +scum for Cantrip? Do you think that KA’s strictly theory-based response is NAI?
@KA: What will make it clear to you that it’s scum!Iso vs agro!Iso pushing you?
@Cantrip: Why can’t KA be doing both simultaneously (asking and doing)? What was the logic behind the fake daykill? A bit more detail than “I think he’s scum,” please. You did get a reaction (the theory), so why state otherwise in 242?
@GF: I echo Cantrip’s questioning of “where have you done this absent-minded posting before.”
@Rez: Why is GF’s statement you quoted in 218 nonsense? Will you define the intent you’re describing in 229? Also, 177 please.
@Terry: highroller makes a good point re: Vezok’s overdefensiveness & KA’s pointing that out.
I don’t think the KA or Cantrip interaction really reflects well on either of them. KA’s hypocrisy on Cantrip’s read is transparently bad, and Cantrip (on top of not selling that well)’s “gotcha” just feels very out of character for him.
@Dan: Good question. I don't think I have a solid indicator from Iso's behavior directly toward me - most likely, I'll decide he's scum or town for other reasons (e.g. getting caught, getting mechanically cleared). Also, what hypocrisy?
@Axelrod: I know what NAI is. What's NAL? Is it the same thing? Seems to be used in the same context here.
I think I like Axelrod's post overall, which means I need to review Bur.
Um, "NAL" is from the Latin, "Non-Alignus"...Locutus...something...
Or, yeah, that's just supposed to be "NAI"
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
And even if I actually thought that my post would influence anyone, I'd still do it as any alignment as I have a strong history of suggesting different types of mass-claims early game even though almost the entire MTGS playerbase considers it a bad idea.
I don't care. "I do this every game" isn't really a valid argument to me right now.
I don't really need to show work here. You can just read this snippet.
@dan
1. its nonsense because it's a strawman set up to simplify my posts to 'oh he's just focusing on these tiny things that dont mean anything'
2. the post I voted vezok for initially because he seemed like he was trying to get people to expose more information after it GF pointed out that we shouldnt be giving up that kind of information.
3. i did the second part of 177 i think. but as to the first part, negative. because that's what it looked like he was doing to me.
32 from axelrod - is that a serious flavor vote? Eyebrow.
35 from Kami is - yup, Axel sees it too. Major downgrade to Kami. Possible upgrade to axel/kami pairing?
Terry for full-on tin foil after 38.
41 - another downgrade for g-dan at 41.
42 - Kami/gdan?
60- Wait what, we're already retconning your claim? Is highroller the neutral? Meh. Apparently I'm going to be a bit ADHD this game.
*reads on* 'Roller is not mafia.
Cantrip 91 is solid town.
Grape might deserve closer attention from me, yeah.
Oh. So yeah, no neutrals. Alright then. Doesn't rule out AWCs, I suppose.
Strongly inclined to argue in favor of the dead goblins being townie, in case of resurrection.
Kami 110 is redeeming.
vote ganderin-danAlso want to vote grapefruit at this point after 188, but insufficient ballot-stuffing capacity.
@Cantrip - Town tell, if anything. Axel's not tpyically the type to go out of his way to plant that as scum, and I've had town-reads on most of his posts.
@Az Make it the bottom 6 and I'd be in favor. I'd be happy to trade myself for Rezombie and KA, especially if I get Bur and Terry thrown in for it.
@Cantrip and Dan went through to find not reading the game posts. Skipping Monster Manual because I wasn't reading the game and those were accurate. Feel free to scum read me more because of that one.
In Phantom Tollbooth I took 631 as one and 1275 is correctly one. In the second I completely missed or forgot a claim that made my target useless and muddied the game up for a while making everyone think there was a non existent scum RB.
In Playstation there was this whole back and for with DV, with 1184 being the clearest example. But really the whole argument is full of me being (to varying degree's of correctness) accused of not reading the game/making things up.
I was wrong about being told I wasn't reading the game in Resistance. It was instead repeated accusations that I wasn't doing anything. I'd conflated them in my head.
And I got distracted rereading resistance from the point where I dunked on KJ. That might be the greatest mafia moment I've ever had. I think there were accusations in F&E too but I'm out of time.
Same question or everyone else. Where do you rate yourself as scum and why.
I'll go first. I'm about a 6 or 7. Good at simulating townie emotion, not very good at mimicking townie thought processes, and my town game is so obvious to most people that I don't usually get far with people who know me at all.
And, go. I'll take note of those who don't answer.
@dan: Like I said, I read over his posts in isolation and it was the overall feel I got from them; like he's just entirely disconnected from where the rest of the way the game has been playing out, and he's outside of the solving thinkspace, if that makes sense.
Yeah, leaning that way, at present.
I'll take that as a yes.
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I'd like to point out that KA continues to refuse to refute my points against him (saying "your argument isn't an argument" doesn't count because LOOK AT ME HERE I AM ARGUING THAT IT IS AN ARGUMENT), instead choosing play at pedantry and semantics.
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I don't like that Grapefruit called Highroller's big post good, because that was the opposite reaction I had to reading it.
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@Cantrip: Lean into me. Tell me what you think of why I think certain people are scum. Specificially, my arguments against KA and Grapefruit. Am I arguing in good faith? Why or why not? Do you agree with my points? Why or why not?
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@Az: hi let's swap KA and dan and put dan, Cantrip, and vezok higher up on the town list (and me at the top) and then I'm on board with that plan.
My scum game's probably a 5 or 6, depending on the setting - though I've had games where I was a solid 10. I've had difficulty for a couple of years, now, getting people NOT to scumread me as scum, so I've adjusted my scum game to capitalize on that and cause as much collateral damage as possible before I go down. I generate a dickton of mislynches, snipe townie PRs, and poison the well with some amazing WIFOM and counter-momentum/vote analysis mesasures. Usually, as scum, I try to clear myself mechanically (though that's NAI as I'll jump at the chance to do so as town, too) and coast on that, but rarely do I try to position myself as the endgame scumteam member because people are just naturally suspicious of me because I've had some really good scum games in my days.
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@Axelrod: My post was serious, thank you, very much.
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@Rezombied: Tell me what's happening between you and JoeTerry right now, because I can't be bothered to figure it out, myself.
@JoeTerry: Same request.
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I'm really just glazing over this back and forth between Highroller and Grapefruit.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Also, Highroller's reaction to the fake Daykill is what I'd expect from newbscum, but I think it's more of an inexperience tell than a scumtell at this juncture, given everything that's transpired.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Looks like the deadline expires around the time I go to bed on worknights (@everyone, please note the deadline is in New Zealand's timezone - that's 17 hours ahead of EST, so deadline expires around 2:30 a.m. EST Oct 30th), so I'll try to be around before then if I remember to check the thread that night. Sunday and Monday evening EST are probably gonna be the best opportunities if anyone wants to interact with me in realtime - let me know and I'll try to keep an eye out, if I can.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
So the first part is lot's of shutting down and non answers.
“Oh no! rezombied is using short, curt sentences and doesn’t seem to be enthused about talking to vezok! He must be mafia!”
Except vezok is doing the same thing. So, why would this be? Maybe, just maybe, it’s because they’re clearly in a pissing contest. vezok even came out and said he was being overdefensive - I know, you’re ignoring that because it means you’re wrong, but it explains rezombied’s reaction.
And once again, I’ve already stated - and you, bizarrely, agreed until you didn’t the next sentence - that acting like rezombied not caring about the votes is some sort of smoking gun is stupid. I specifically asked you to find anything else that he shut down discussion on.
Now, to your credit, you did find one other thing rezombied wasn’t willing to engage on besides the explanation of the votes. Except the problem is it’s another nonissue, another completely understandable reaction. rezombied says he didn’t care about vezok’s previous game behavior, but he also gives a reason for that: he’s not about to go read another mafia thread, much less several, so vezok could claim anything and he’s not going to factcheck.
This is another thing that I find totally understandable because I have the exact same reaction as rezombied did. I’ll admit maybe it’s because I’ve not played a mafia game here in over a decade, but I’ve been ignoring all of the arguments that hinge on someone’s previous mafia behavior, because I’m not about to read like three other mafia games in order to fact check the claims, so anyone could claim anything and it would mean exactly as much to me as any other claim. I’m not saying you shouldn’t take your experience with a person’s playstyle into account, I just don’t see the value of a discussion it when it won’t actually persuade anyone who didn’t play in the games. If rezombied had played in one of the games rezombied was referencing, that would be another matter. As it stands, you’re saying that rezombied didn’t contribute to the conversation, whereas my question is what could he have contributed to that conversation, and on top of that, what productive directions would the conversation have ultimately gone, in your mind?
Then the reply of saying he didn't ask questions is on the fuzzy line between a lie and a misread.
Well it can’t be a lie because he’s correct, vezok did not ask any questions.
While it doesn't have a question mark the end of Terry's 39 pretty clearly was asking for a follow up. Which just shut him down.
Yeah, a follow up on the “Why don’t you care?!” question that I have already demonstrated is a completely asinine question. Once again, it’s obvious they’re in a pissing contest. I wouldn’t have dignified that question with a response.
I know that won't sway you because you've decided two page 1 "serious" votes are irrelevant and not worth noticing but again strongly disagree with that position that I struggle to articulate it.
A frequent question I find myself asking when I read your posts is, "Because why should words mean things, really?"
I can't imagine how you could play mafia and not wonder why people are voting you even if those votes are utterly inconsequential.
Quote from Merriam Webster »
Definition of inconsequential
1a : illogical
b : irrelevant
2 : of no significance : unimportant
Which is it? Are they utterly inconsequential, or are they not utterly inconsequential?
Boy, it’s fascinating to me how the importance of something changes depending on how it suits you.
Which is it? Are they inconsequential votes, or are they the pivotal piece of evidence of Day One?
So on the Rezombie part point B is weak. I'll readily admit it.
Which is it? Is it a weak point, or is it a damning one?
How can you say it’s a weak case based on inconsequential votes, and yet at the same time you’re acting like you found the smoking gun?
Or are you going to argue this is also not a contradiction?
It’s so obvious you’re just trying to find a way to lynch people and grabbing at straws to find reasons to justify your vote. You’re just throwing everything at the wall here. KA is suspicious because he’s made a factually correct statement. rezombied is apparently mafia because he isn’t doesn’t put importance in two page one day one votes with no explanation and he thinks Highroller is town.
On the plus side, I don’t really have a problem with you pushing Terry. You're more than welcome to continue doing that.
His backing off is irrelevant to the point that it's strange given his stated care about people claiming that he never expressed any interest in you beyond "I'm still interested in Highroller's response to Bur."
Perhaps he thought that vez had malicious intent and that I did not. Which, incidentally, is what I think. And I think vez’s flipflop with regards to his stance on roleclaims is something way more people should be suspicious of.
Also, Highroller's reaction to the fake Daykill is what I'd expect from newbscum, but I think it's more of an inexperience tell than a scumtell at this juncture, given everything that's transpired.
I mean, I was curious why no one else commented on it. Is someone claiming a weird daykill ability a regular Thursday occurrence around this forum?
High roller, I'm not asking for people to rate their chances of being scum, I'm asking for people to rate their effectiveness and describe meta, so I have a base line for meta.
I'd also be happy to receive descriptions of town meta, also.
Not that I'm complaining or anything, but any particular reason behind this?
I'm sure you'll be able to find my reasoning in any of my posts where I address my issues with Grapefruit.
I'll give you a hint: There are at least two!
Quote from Highroller »
I mean, I was curious why no one else commented on it. Is someone claiming a weird daykill ability a regular Thursday occurrence around this forum?
In general, scum have more difficulty reacting to things organically than town do. That said, I wasn't here to react to it, but I suspected Cantrip was faking when I read the post in question (though I was hoping he wasn't). That said, I haven't seen a Daykill gambit in a good minute, and I imagine it would have been more effective on someone less experienced than KA, who's been playing at least around as long as I have, if not longer (not counting his periods of inactivity).
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Relatedly, I don't really like that Grapefruit hasn't addressed my issues with his play (much in the same way I take issue with KA doing the same). I mean, I realize I was a bit vague, but that was because I'm not interested in generating quotewalls like the days of yore.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
My scum game varies from game to game. I'd say 6-7 on a good day and 3-4 on a bad day.
@highroller: Fake dayvigs are pretty common in mafia in general. It's not alignment telling in general and they way they use that is more important. Usually a fake daykill is aimed at a newbie to see if he takes the bait and claims he is town or scum, but it's not very reliable. What Cantrip did is one of the worst attempts at a fake daykill I've seen. It was so bad that I actually had to spend some thinking if the ability could be real.
@dan: The list is safe because he puts people like Bur as first scumread. That's an easy read as Bur is mostly absent. He isn't fighting other people. The fake dayvig is just a bit +scum. Mostly because doing a daykill gambit is usually a bit +town, but this being so bad feels more forced than a natural occurrence. KA is very good at theory. He doesn't really get points one way or the other, because he's done the correct play. He should have played along and try to shoot someone else if he wanted to affect the game in way.
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@Az I don't have a strong grasp on how good I think KA's scum game is. He fooled me pretty well in Phantom Tollbooth for a while, but I don't fear his scum game. What town tells are you seeing? I'd rate myself about a 4 as scum when I'm playing well.
@Iso the only things you've said to me is you thought my conclusions were being made before finding reasons and that you disagree with me on the big Highroller post. I didn't adress a response to you because I was also talking about that (well issues similiar) with Highroller. But basically I learned from you. I love a good naked vote and making people do the work to see what I'm seeing. One of my favorite games to play with newish players is to make them guess what I saw when I voted nakedly. Have always found it insightful.
@Highroller I'm not going to engage on everything you said but a few points.
On what would have been a productive response on Vez saying he does it every game: Interesting, why do you think it's valuable to do as town? And can you show me a single post where you do it. I don't have time to dig through your old games trying to find it.
Or
I don't have time to read old games. But I find that hard to believe because it's strongly against what's best for town. What do you hope to gain from doing it here?
On inconsequential votes they are inconsequential because they won't lead to someone getting lynched or really impact the game state in anyway. So from a impact on the game they are likely useless. But they are still votes people made for a reason. And understanding the motivation behind that reason could be valuable. So as I've been saying it's not about the votes, it's about figuring out why people made them to generate reads.
And on his level of engagement (the point B I said was weak) it's not something I'd scum read him for on it's own. It's too weak to generate a full read off. But it is a clear behavior that fits with the other things pointing to him being scum. For a really esoteric example someone buying a ton of boxes isn't a strong indicator they are starting a business on it's own, but coupled with them filing a patent and renting a warehouse it paints a pretty clear picture.
I didn't even read that post of Cantrip's as a "fake day kill". I thought he was trying to be cryptic and mysterious again like in his first post. And while I kind of want to give him credit for being all hint-y, I also kind of don't, because I feel like that's probably in his range to do as scum.
Quote from Azrael »
I'll go first. I'm about a 6 or 7. Good at simulating townie emotion, not very good at mimicking townie thought processes, and my town game is so obvious to most people that I don't usually get far with people who know me at all.
Sadly, your Town game is not quite so obvious to me. I think I will be perpetually paranoid about you whenever we play.
I have not had to pretend to be Town in a while, so I'm not sure how I'd do these days. Time was I was decent at being scum, but my last memory was the game where you spent like all of D1 on completely the wrong track attacking another Townie, and I was feeling great, and then by the end of the day you had reversed yourself, declared the person Town and nailed like the entire scum team, or some nightmare like that.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Thinking some cass on grape and gan dan are in order to decide between those two. Evenings are most likely for timing on that. Atm, kids naptime, and curling up with a completely frivolous fantasy book on a grey, fall afternoon. *happy sigh*
I am going to take Bur not saying anything about me voting for him and instead remarking on how terrible he is as scum as an admission of guilt.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
High roller, I'm not asking for people to rate their chances of being scum, I'm asking for people to rate their effectiveness and describe meta, so I have a base line for meta.
I'd also be happy to receive descriptions of town meta, also.
Oh dude, the hell if I know.
I think the complication with anyone trying to demonstrate I'm mafia is that they'll have to answer the question of whether I'm also the Goblin Recruiter or am I lying about being so, and if I did lie, did I produce that goblin or did I not? In other words, what, specifically, am I lying or not lying about. Because if I'm lying about the Goblin Recruiter thing, then I went for a hell of a gambit that could have backfired so easily.
@Highroller I'm not going to engage on everything you said
Careful. Grapefruit21 might consider you to be mafia.
On what would have been a productive response on Vez saying he does it every game: Interesting, why do you think it's valuable to do as town? And can you show me a single post where you do it. I don't have time to dig through your old games trying to find it.
I don't understand what this is saying.
I don't have time to read old games. But I find that hard to believe because it's strongly against what's best for town. What do you hope to gain from doing it here?
Wait what?
I don't have time to dig through your old games trying to find it.
Is this a practical joke?
On inconsequential votes they are inconsequential because they won't lead to someone getting lynched or really impact the game state in anyway. So from a impact on the game they are likely useless. But they are still votes people made for a reason. And understanding the motivation behind that reason could be valuable. So as I've been saying it's not about the votes, it's about figuring out why people made them to generate reads.
Something cannot simultaneously be of significance and also be inconsequential, Grapefruit21, they are antonyms. And if you're asking why rezombied is acting like these inconsequential votes are inconsequential, then I do not know how to help you.
And on his level of engagement (the point B I said was weak)
No, no. Point B was:
B. Not caring why people were voting for him
And there was no reason for him to.
But it is a clear behavior that fits with the other things pointing to him being scum. For a really esoteric example someone buying a ton of boxes isn't a strong indicator they are starting a business on it's own, but coupled with them filing a patent and renting a warehouse it paints a pretty clear picture.
You haven't done that. What you've done is taken molehills and are trying to twist them into mountains. That is, in addition to also arguing that things are P is also not-P at the same time.
Phone post, so apologies for the brevity, but can we please get some more votes on Bur? A series of wolfy pop ins like that (including one where he tries to significantly downplay his scum ability) deserves a heck of a lot more pressure than he's getting.
If need be, I could vote grape, but I think Bur is more concerning.
I am going to take Bur not saying anything about me voting for him and instead remarking on how terrible he is as scum as an admission of guilt.
I laughed.
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I feel like Grapefruit's response to my points against him feels similar to KA's response to my points against him, but maybe I'm just biased.
I don't hate the idea of lynching Bur toDay, but it feels like the scum are involved in pushing him in some way, so if he is actually scum, we need to keep an eye out for bus pressure, and if he's not, well, I think there's a decent chance Bur is just low-hanging fruit, here.
And I'd rather lynch somebody D1 on a read rather than on meta/lurking.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Dude, I'm well aware of post #61. But, much like your attempting to throw suspicion on KA for his making an entirely correct statement, it's pretty clear to me you're doing the same thing to Terry, priming the way to jump back should you need to.
Also:
Yeah, it's low hanging fruit I know, but I'm not going to let you get away with blatant lies and falsehoods.
The original.
So the first part is lot's of shutting down and non answers. Deciding that what Vez does or doens't do every game is irrelevant is a sweeping denial of engagement.
Then the reply of saying he didn't ask questions is on the fuzzy line between a lie and a misread. While it doesn't have a question mark the end of Terry's 39 pretty clearly was asking for a follow up. Which just shut him down. I know that won't sway you because you've decided two page 1 "serious" votes are irrelevant and not worth noticing but again strongly disagree with that position that I struggle to articulate it.
His reply to me is again another dismissive answer. Shows no curiosity or willinginess to explain why he doesn't care.
The second one is a contradiction of himself.
Then he claims to care about intent but never for a second was suspicious of you calling for a mass claim when all his paranoia of Vez came from the fact that he was worried it would lead to more claims. But doesn't explain it at all. Just a dismissive "I care about intent."
Come on now. You're better than that. Look at my I don't care in context. I'm using it to say that Vez has an a skewed view of his own meta. Not that I think the issue isn't worth considering. My point is that he reads defensively in every game he's in. And that this wasn't really out of character for him. Even if it was an attempt to be so. His intent isn't really relevant for reading people's reactions to it. Because they don't know his intent.
Right but he had set himself apart from the pack on Vez. The pack didn't suspect him. You both were in his "I care about intent" view attempting to reach the same goal, more people claiming.
His backing off is irrelevant to the point that it's strange given his stated care about people claiming that he never expressed any interest in you beyond "I'm still interested in Highroller's response to Bur."
This is the most nonsensical attempt at saving face I have ever seen.
You cannot argue that KA saying that vezok is overdefensive is untrue when vezok himself says that KA is right. If vezok himself is saying he was intentionally being overdefensive, then the matter is settled. You're wrong. Talking more is not going to buy this one back.
My point isn't about whether or not Vez felt he was being defensive it's about whether or not someone familiar with Vez's play should think it's vote worthy or even noticeably more defensive than he usually is.
I do like the attack on the discrepancy in the KA attack, because you can't claim I was overdefensive when I made a big post about a mostly random vote that I could have simply ignored.
@grape: Can you provide a readlist or at least top 3 scum?
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
Vote: Highroller
So, theorytime, my feeling about things like this is that (assuming for the moment Highroller is Town) the immediate scum-reaction to a Townie claiming unforced early on D1 is going to be to scold that Townie. Because (they think) scolding is the "Town" thing to do. Why is the Townie claiming! Why are you giving free information to the scum! Bad Townie! Sometimes they might throw in a warning to everyone else not to follow suit. Because they are being such good and conscientious Townies. I'm exaggerating for effect, but that's the jist, and Bur's reaction was along those lines. It's far from conclusive, because real Townies can absolutely scold as well, but that's what I'm looking at.
I would say Bur's vote on Rezombied is NAL. Fine for what it was. Rezombied vote was bad. Could do as any alignment.
Bur then has exams and no time for this game for a while. That's also pretty NAL.
Then Bur says "I hope Iso is not serious in #54," when #54 is clearly a tongue-in-cheek post of Iso's (I don't care if Iso had/has genuine suspicious about Highroller/Terry, the post was tongue-in-cheek and could not actually be taken seriously by anyone). Moos (of all people) calls him on this (saying it was "weird") and Bur seems to double down on it, asking Moos whether he thinks Iso is right or not. That itself seems an off reaction. Moos wasn't saying anything about Highroller/Terry. He was saying "That statement you (Bur) made about hoping Iso wasn't serious was weird" (because how could anyone be taking it seriously) - and he was right about that.
He does a little more "scolding" by telling Highroller to stop talking so much about game mechanics and start giving more opinions on who is Town and who is Mafia. That's largely NAL, but absolutely a thing scum do, again, to appear to be acting like good, helpful Townies.
And then Bur called one of my posts a "big pile of empty words and excuses."
So, he's clearly scum.
Vote: Bur
@Vez: What makes you think Cantrip’s 160 list is “safe?” What makes you think the daykill is +scum for Cantrip? Do you think that KA’s strictly theory-based response is NAI?
@KA: What will make it clear to you that it’s scum!Iso vs agro!Iso pushing you?
@Cantrip: Why can’t KA be doing both simultaneously (asking and doing)? What was the logic behind the fake daykill? A bit more detail than “I think he’s scum,” please. You did get a reaction (the theory), so why state otherwise in 242?
@GF: I echo Cantrip’s questioning of “where have you done this absent-minded posting before.”
@Rez: Why is GF’s statement you quoted in 218 nonsense? Will you define the intent you’re describing in 229? Also, 177 please.
@Terry: highroller makes a good point re: Vezok’s overdefensiveness & KA’s pointing that out.
I don’t think the KA or Cantrip interaction really reflects well on either of them. KA’s hypocrisy on Cantrip’s read is transparently bad, and Cantrip (on top of not selling that well)’s “gotcha” just feels very out of character for him.
@Axelrod: I know what NAI is. What's NAL? Is it the same thing? Seems to be used in the same context here.
I think I like Axelrod's post overall, which means I need to review Bur.
Or, yeah, that's just supposed to be "NAI"
That's a smarter sounding answer....
yes you do, im tired of you dodging this.
1. its nonsense because it's a strawman set up to simplify my posts to 'oh he's just focusing on these tiny things that dont mean anything'
2. the post I voted vezok for initially because he seemed like he was trying to get people to expose more information after it GF pointed out that we shouldnt be giving up that kind of information.
3. i did the second part of 177 i think. but as to the first part, negative. because that's what it looked like he was doing to me.
I'd vote moos12 for 15 and 16, except that's me.
17 from G-dan is lame.
19 is...eh? Good, I think?
Vezko townish.
Wonder what rezombied's theories will be per 25.
30 disturbs me a bit. Possibly a lot. Joe terry.
32 from axelrod - is that a serious flavor vote? Eyebrow.
35 from Kami is - yup, Axel sees it too. Major downgrade to Kami. Possible upgrade to axel/kami pairing?
Terry for full-on tin foil after 38.
41 - another downgrade for g-dan at 41.
42 - Kami/gdan?
60- Wait what, we're already retconning your claim? Is highroller the neutral? Meh. Apparently I'm going to be a bit ADHD this game.
*reads on* 'Roller is not mafia.
Cantrip 91 is solid town.
Grape might deserve closer attention from me, yeah.
Oh. So yeah, no neutrals. Alright then. Doesn't rule out AWCs, I suppose.
Strongly inclined to argue in favor of the dead goblins being townie, in case of resurrection.
Kami 110 is redeeming.
vote ganderin-danAlso want to vote grapefruit at this point after 188, but insufficient ballot-stuffing capacity.
@Cantrip - Town tell, if anything. Axel's not tpyically the type to go out of his way to plant that as scum, and I've had town-reads on most of his posts.
Alright, that puts me on:
Towniest
9. Azrael (replacing M00S12)
7. Highroller
10. Axelrod
1. Iso
3. Vezokpiraka
5. Cantripmancer
6. KamikazeArchon
8. Rezombied
11. Bur
4. TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
2. Grapefruit21
12. ganderin_dan
Scummiest
All in favor of killing the bottom five, raise your hands.
@Cantrip and Dan went through to find not reading the game posts. Skipping Monster Manual because I wasn't reading the game and those were accurate. Feel free to scum read me more because of that one.
In Phantom Tollbooth I took 631 as one and 1275 is correctly one. In the second I completely missed or forgot a claim that made my target useless and muddied the game up for a while making everyone think there was a non existent scum RB.
In Playstation there was this whole back and for with DV, with 1184 being the clearest example. But really the whole argument is full of me being (to varying degree's of correctness) accused of not reading the game/making things up.
I was wrong about being told I wasn't reading the game in Resistance. It was instead repeated accusations that I wasn't doing anything. I'd conflated them in my head.
And I got distracted rereading resistance from the point where I dunked on KJ. That might be the greatest mafia moment I've ever had. I think there were accusations in F&E too but I'm out of time.
I'll go first. I'm about a 6 or 7. Good at simulating townie emotion, not very good at mimicking townie thought processes, and my town game is so obvious to most people that I don't usually get far with people who know me at all.
And, go. I'll take note of those who don't answer.
Yeah, leaning that way, at present.
I'll take that as a yes.
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I'd like to point out that KA continues to refuse to refute my points against him (saying "your argument isn't an argument" doesn't count because LOOK AT ME HERE I AM ARGUING THAT IT IS AN ARGUMENT), instead choosing play at pedantry and semantics.
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I don't like that Grapefruit called Highroller's big post good, because that was the opposite reaction I had to reading it.
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@Cantrip: Lean into me. Tell me what you think of why I think certain people are scum. Specificially, my arguments against KA and Grapefruit. Am I arguing in good faith? Why or why not? Do you agree with my points? Why or why not?
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@Az: hi let's swap KA and dan and put dan, Cantrip, and vezok higher up on the town list (and me at the top) and then I'm on board with that plan.
My scum game's probably a 5 or 6, depending on the setting - though I've had games where I was a solid 10. I've had difficulty for a couple of years, now, getting people NOT to scumread me as scum, so I've adjusted my scum game to capitalize on that and cause as much collateral damage as possible before I go down. I generate a dickton of mislynches, snipe townie PRs, and poison the well with some amazing WIFOM and counter-momentum/vote analysis mesasures. Usually, as scum, I try to clear myself mechanically (though that's NAI as I'll jump at the chance to do so as town, too) and coast on that, but rarely do I try to position myself as the endgame scumteam member because people are just naturally suspicious of me because I've had some really good scum games in my days.
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@Axelrod: My post was serious, thank you, very much.
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@Rezombied: Tell me what's happening between you and JoeTerry right now, because I can't be bothered to figure it out, myself.
@JoeTerry: Same request.
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I'm really just glazing over this back and forth between Highroller and Grapefruit.
Here, let me help:
Unvote, Vote Grapefruit
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm not really sure what answer you were expecting from this. Did you anticipate many people were going to rate themselves mafia?
Grapefruit21: Quite a lot of reaching.
“Oh no! rezombied is using short, curt sentences and doesn’t seem to be enthused about talking to vezok! He must be mafia!”
Except vezok is doing the same thing. So, why would this be? Maybe, just maybe, it’s because they’re clearly in a pissing contest. vezok even came out and said he was being overdefensive - I know, you’re ignoring that because it means you’re wrong, but it explains rezombied’s reaction.
And once again, I’ve already stated - and you, bizarrely, agreed until you didn’t the next sentence - that acting like rezombied not caring about the votes is some sort of smoking gun is stupid. I specifically asked you to find anything else that he shut down discussion on.
Now, to your credit, you did find one other thing rezombied wasn’t willing to engage on besides the explanation of the votes. Except the problem is it’s another nonissue, another completely understandable reaction. rezombied says he didn’t care about vezok’s previous game behavior, but he also gives a reason for that: he’s not about to go read another mafia thread, much less several, so vezok could claim anything and he’s not going to factcheck.
This is another thing that I find totally understandable because I have the exact same reaction as rezombied did. I’ll admit maybe it’s because I’ve not played a mafia game here in over a decade, but I’ve been ignoring all of the arguments that hinge on someone’s previous mafia behavior, because I’m not about to read like three other mafia games in order to fact check the claims, so anyone could claim anything and it would mean exactly as much to me as any other claim. I’m not saying you shouldn’t take your experience with a person’s playstyle into account, I just don’t see the value of a discussion it when it won’t actually persuade anyone who didn’t play in the games. If rezombied had played in one of the games rezombied was referencing, that would be another matter. As it stands, you’re saying that rezombied didn’t contribute to the conversation, whereas my question is what could he have contributed to that conversation, and on top of that, what productive directions would the conversation have ultimately gone, in your mind?
Well it can’t be a lie because he’s correct, vezok did not ask any questions.
Yeah, a follow up on the “Why don’t you care?!” question that I have already demonstrated is a completely asinine question. Once again, it’s obvious they’re in a pissing contest. I wouldn’t have dignified that question with a response.
A frequent question I find myself asking when I read your posts is, "Because why should words mean things, really?"
Which is it? Are they utterly inconsequential, or are they not utterly inconsequential?
Boy, it’s fascinating to me how the importance of something changes depending on how it suits you.
Which is it? Are they inconsequential votes, or are they the pivotal piece of evidence of Day One?
Which is it? Is it a weak point, or is it a damning one?
How can you say it’s a weak case based on inconsequential votes, and yet at the same time you’re acting like you found the smoking gun?
Or are you going to argue this is also not a contradiction?
It’s so obvious you’re just trying to find a way to lynch people and grabbing at straws to find reasons to justify your vote. You’re just throwing everything at the wall here. KA is suspicious because he’s made a factually correct statement. rezombied is apparently mafia because he isn’t doesn’t put importance in two page one day one votes with no explanation and he thinks Highroller is town.
On the plus side, I don’t really have a problem with you pushing Terry. You're more than welcome to continue doing that.
Perhaps he thought that vez had malicious intent and that I did not. Which, incidentally, is what I think. And I think vez’s flipflop with regards to his stance on roleclaims is something way more people should be suspicious of.
I’ll work on it.
Not that I'm complaining or anything, but any particular reason behind this?
I mean, I was curious why no one else commented on it. Is someone claiming a weird daykill ability a regular Thursday occurrence around this forum?
I'd also be happy to receive descriptions of town meta, also.
I'm sure you'll be able to find my reasoning in any of my posts where I address my issues with Grapefruit.
I'll give you a hint: There are at least two!
In general, scum have more difficulty reacting to things organically than town do. That said, I wasn't here to react to it, but I suspected Cantrip was faking when I read the post in question (though I was hoping he wasn't). That said, I haven't seen a Daykill gambit in a good minute, and I imagine it would have been more effective on someone less experienced than KA, who's been playing at least around as long as I have, if not longer (not counting his periods of inactivity).
I'd describe my town meta, but you're looking at it, so...
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@highroller: Fake dayvigs are pretty common in mafia in general. It's not alignment telling in general and they way they use that is more important. Usually a fake daykill is aimed at a newbie to see if he takes the bait and claims he is town or scum, but it's not very reliable. What Cantrip did is one of the worst attempts at a fake daykill I've seen. It was so bad that I actually had to spend some thinking if the ability could be real.
@dan: The list is safe because he puts people like Bur as first scumread. That's an easy read as Bur is mostly absent. He isn't fighting other people. The fake dayvig is just a bit +scum. Mostly because doing a daykill gambit is usually a bit +town, but this being so bad feels more forced than a natural occurrence. KA is very good at theory. He doesn't really get points one way or the other, because he's done the correct play. He should have played along and try to shoot someone else if he wanted to affect the game in way.
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Check out the Shop Thread
@Dan: Reads on Cantrip, KA and grapefruit please. You've been asking questions since the game started, but haven't offered some solid analysis.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
@Iso the only things you've said to me is you thought my conclusions were being made before finding reasons and that you disagree with me on the big Highroller post. I didn't adress a response to you because I was also talking about that (well issues similiar) with Highroller. But basically I learned from you. I love a good naked vote and making people do the work to see what I'm seeing. One of my favorite games to play with newish players is to make them guess what I saw when I voted nakedly. Have always found it insightful.
@Highroller I'm not going to engage on everything you said but a few points.
On what would have been a productive response on Vez saying he does it every game: Interesting, why do you think it's valuable to do as town? And can you show me a single post where you do it. I don't have time to dig through your old games trying to find it.
Or
I don't have time to read old games. But I find that hard to believe because it's strongly against what's best for town. What do you hope to gain from doing it here?
On inconsequential votes they are inconsequential because they won't lead to someone getting lynched or really impact the game state in anyway. So from a impact on the game they are likely useless. But they are still votes people made for a reason. And understanding the motivation behind that reason could be valuable. So as I've been saying it's not about the votes, it's about figuring out why people made them to generate reads.
And on his level of engagement (the point B I said was weak) it's not something I'd scum read him for on it's own. It's too weak to generate a full read off. But it is a clear behavior that fits with the other things pointing to him being scum. For a really esoteric example someone buying a ton of boxes isn't a strong indicator they are starting a business on it's own, but coupled with them filing a patent and renting a warehouse it paints a pretty clear picture.
Sadly, your Town game is not quite so obvious to me. I think I will be perpetually paranoid about you whenever we play.
I have not had to pretend to be Town in a while, so I'm not sure how I'd do these days. Time was I was decent at being scum, but my last memory was the game where you spent like all of D1 on completely the wrong track attacking another Townie, and I was feeling great, and then by the end of the day you had reversed yourself, declared the person Town and nailed like the entire scum team, or some nightmare like that.
I think the complication with anyone trying to demonstrate I'm mafia is that they'll have to answer the question of whether I'm also the Goblin Recruiter or am I lying about being so, and if I did lie, did I produce that goblin or did I not? In other words, what, specifically, am I lying or not lying about. Because if I'm lying about the Goblin Recruiter thing, then I went for a hell of a gambit that could have backfired so easily.
Good thinking.
Careful. Grapefruit21 might consider you to be mafia.
I don't understand what this is saying.
Wait what?
Is this a practical joke?
Something cannot simultaneously be of significance and also be inconsequential, Grapefruit21, they are antonyms. And if you're asking why rezombied is acting like these inconsequential votes are inconsequential, then I do not know how to help you.
No, no. Point B was:
And there was no reason for him to.
You haven't done that. What you've done is taken molehills and are trying to twist them into mountains. That is, in addition to also arguing that things are P is also not-P at the same time.
If need be, I could vote grape, but I think Bur is more concerning.
I'm done for now.
@Cantrip: Yeah, bur is concerning. I have reviewed him and realized the reason I overlooked him earlier is he has done almost nothing.
I'm willing to give a bit of leeway for finals, but not much. He's now down with rezombied in my "willing to vote as a deadline lynch" group.
@Bur: You were going to reread. Where is it?
@Highroller: I have a challenge for you. How long can you go with posts of no more than 150 words and no more than two quotes?
I laughed.
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I feel like Grapefruit's response to my points against him feels similar to KA's response to my points against him, but maybe I'm just biased.
I don't hate the idea of lynching Bur toDay, but it feels like the scum are involved in pushing him in some way, so if he is actually scum, we need to keep an eye out for bus pressure, and if he's not, well, I think there's a decent chance Bur is just low-hanging fruit, here.
And I'd rather lynch somebody D1 on a read rather than on meta/lurking.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Both the points about KA and grape and about not lynching Bur.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@iso: the first part of my post #229 has the quote from terry that i want an explanation on how he reached that conclusion. And he wont do it.