@Dan & M00S12 & Grapefruit: Why are you only questioning one of the two naked votes that have been made this game?
Vez gets a lean-town for his responses to Rez. However...
@Vez: The mass flavor claim I proposed in Team 2 was 100% to generate reactions/conversation, and I would never have seriously pursued it (as either alignment) in a game like that. Same with a game like this; I feel like flavor/card claiming--outside of claiming at L-2 or a later Day massclaim--is more likely to help scum in Night choices than it is to help town solve.
I haven't seen a post from Rez that I've liked...although that may just be because I don't see where Rez is getting their conclusions from. Vote stays for now.
@Grape: Why do you want to explore whether Highroller is lying?
@grape: Well yeah, Cantrip was scum. That's not relevant. It was a response to the question dan asked as to why I don't propose mass claims more often. I was pointing to a situation where I did it. There's also the whole talk I had with you in Arkham mafia about mass-claiming.
I don't understand your question about snipping.
I do not think highroller is lying and I think it's a moderately good thing he claimed. There are probably multiple roles that need to use the goblin he creates as a resource.
As a sidenote: KA's is right. I was being extremely defensive because I was bored and wanted to stir ***** up. He's wrong about that making me scum though.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy. Check out the Shop Thread
@Dan & M00S12 & Grapefruit: Why are you only questioning one of the two naked votes that have been made this game?
Vez gets a lean-town for his responses to Rez. However...
@Vez: The mass flavor claim I proposed in Team 2 was 100% to generate reactions/conversation, and I would never have seriously pursued it (as either alignment) in a game like that. Same with a game like this; I feel like flavor/card claiming--outside of claiming at L-2 or a later Day massclaim--is more likely to help scum in Night choices than it is to help town solve.
I haven't seen a post from Rez that I've liked...although that may just be because I don't see where Rez is getting their conclusions from. Vote stays for now.
@Grape: Why do you want to explore whether Highroller is lying?
Because I missed your vote below the vault of gobbledygook.
Why the vote?
And I'm not particularly curious about highroller's claim. I'm curious why Vez didn't know what to think of it but had so little to say about it. I agree his reactions to Rezomibe felt solid but I still am weirdly pinged the way he felt compelled to talk about Highroller's claim but didn't say anything in doing so.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@grape: Well yeah, Cantrip was scum. That's not relevant. It was a response to the question dan asked as to why I don't propose mass claims more often. I was pointing to a situation where I did it. There's also the whole talk I had with you in Arkham mafia about mass-claiming.
Gotcha, I was just lost about the relevance of bringing it up. I think the fact that scum!cantrip was doing it to stir up reactions is probably a good sign it can be scum+. Not as a rule or anything just as a base scenario.
I don't understand your question about snipping.
I do not think highroller is lying and I think it's a moderately good thing he claimed. There are probably multiple roles that need to use the goblin he creates as a resource.
On the first part it doesn't matter really. I just meant you removed my saying my card was one of my favorites from your quote saying you loved your card too.
On the second then why did you say:
Don't know what to make of highroller's claim. It doesn't help my role.
?
As a sidenote: KA's is right. I was being extremely defensive because I was bored and wanted to stir ***** up. He's wrong about that making me scum though.
I don't mean this in a attacking or negative way but you often read as defensive. And the fact that you tend to, and did in your last shared game that just finished, makes his conclusion baffling.
@grape: It was general excitement regarding the setup. His role sends goblins to the graveyard, there must be someone who uses them right? It tickled my Johnny sense.
@cantrip: I knew that. I'm just of a different mindset that even useless flavor claiming is cool. Just for the fact that it's done so rarely. In this game totally oppose any kind of claiming until we are better settled in.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy. Check out the Shop Thread
My posts aren't legible with all the quote break ups. Or barely legible at best. Basically I don't get why you would make a big deal out of not being sure what to make of Highroller's claim without adding any opinions on the matter. Feels like commenting for commentings sake.
My posts aren't legible with all the quote break ups. Or barely legible at best. Basically I don't get why you would make a big deal out of not being sure what to make of Highroller's claim without adding any opinions on the matter. Feels like commenting for commentings sake.
That's because it was commenting for commenting's sake. It's in the same post where I say I'm excited about my card. The post was never intended to be analysed so deeply.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy. Check out the Shop Thread
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Sorry, I don't like double posting, so was waiting for someone else to reply, then had to go to sleep and haven't been able to post until now because of work.
I actually have a second ability that activates when I die. I am able to create two goblin corpses to add to the graveyard including my own. They can be any goblin card I want (spoiler warning: at least one of them is definitely going to be Goblin Gardener. Believe in the sausage tree, man. Believe in your dreams!), and are either townie, mafia, or neutral. Again, no idea what this does, but the presence of neutrality indicates there are probably other neutrals in the game.
Bur: I can't seem to quote your post without something weird happening, but as to "Why did you decide to claim this...?", I pretty much always claim Day 1. I would imagine Axelrod remembers this.
I don't know why this isn't common practice. The town's advantage is numbers. The Mafia's advantage is that early on they have all of the relevant information, as no one knows who they are, they know who each other are, and therefore they can control the flow of information (hence why the mafia generally have two plays: 1. lurk, or 2. try to have one member take control of the town's discussion). The neutral role's advantage is that no one necessarily expects that they'll be in the game, and/or they have some sort of ability to compensate for their being greatly outnumbered.
The town have two ways to get rid of the mafia's inherent advantage:
1. Decide lynching order at the start of the game by random number generator, as the last people are more likely to be town than mafia, but this is easy to screw with, and frankly, takes 100% of the fun out of the game, however much it might make mathematical sense, thereby making it dumb and boring,
OR,
2. Roleclaim early. This generally breaks games unless the mod has put in planning to counter this strategy, and even then it doesn't generally put the town at a disadvantage, it just kind of gets them where they started.
@Highroller, that Goblin hasn't been recruited, he's been slaughtered. Poor guy is dead. Just what kind of Recruiter are you?
Yeah, it really doesn't make sense, does it? I interpret it as there's literally no other place to put goblins. Though frankly, I feel it would have made a lot more sense to give me the ability to cast more than one vote or something, though that's probably too imba.
Sorry, I don't like double posting, so was waiting for someone else to reply, then had to go to sleep and haven't been able to post until now because of work.
I actually have a second ability that activates when I die. I am able to create two goblin corpses to add to the graveyard including my own. They can be any goblin card I want (spoiler warning: at least one of them is definitely going to be Goblin Gardener. Believe in the sausage tree, man. Believe in your dreams!), and are either townie, mafia, or neutral. Again, no idea what this does, but the presence of neutrality indicates there are probably other neutrals in the game.
Well that is interesting. Maybe there is a Deathrite Shaman in this game (I figured the cards used in the art just wouldn't be in the game). Still expect a Yawgmoth's will. Dig through time or treasure cruise could play off that as well. I'm drawing blanks on other banned cards that care about graveyards. Nothing in dredge except Bazaar is banned anywhere these days. And Bazaar wouldn't care about the cards in the GY already. Hmmm...
Bur: I can't seem to quote your post without something weird happening, but as to "Why did you decide to claim this...?", I pretty much always claim Day 1. I would imagine Axelrod remembers this.
I don't know why this isn't common practice. The town's advantage is numbers. The Mafia's advantage is that early on they have all of the relevant information, as no one knows who they are, they know who each other are, and therefore they can control the flow of information (hence why the mafia generally have two plays: 1. lurk, or 2. try to have one member take control of the town's discussion). The neutral role's advantage is that no one necessarily expects that they'll be in the game, and/or they have some sort of ability to compensate for their being greatly outnumbered.
The town have two ways to get rid of the mafia's inherent advantage:
1. Decide lynching order at the start of the game by random number generator, as the last people are more likely to be town than mafia, but this is easy to screw with, and frankly, takes 100% of the fun out of the game, however much it might make mathematical sense, thereby making it dumb and boring,
OR,
2. Roleclaim early. This generally breaks games unless the mod has put in planning to counter this strategy, and even then it doesn't generally put the town at a disadvantage, it just kind of gets them where they started.
This is just completely foreign to me. Why does a random lynching order set at the start of the game help at all? Why does that improve odds compared to lynching based on reads/behavior/mechanics? Just completely lost by how that does anything helpful.
That said I suspect you're right about two and the standard consensus is too anti claim. Especially in heavy PR games like this. I'm not in favor of a D1 mass claim here (or almost ever), but I think D3 and sometimes D2 claims are usually correct.
@Vez Fair enough. It definitely generated some reactions. I'm really geeking out about this setup as well.
IMO, people don't like early massclaims because they want to do behavioral solving and not just mechanical solving, and because it's fun to have secrets. People will tend to oppose it unless there's a clear and significant advantage.
Grape: Vezok wasn't defensive in Phantom Tollbooth. Defensiveness in this context is caring a lot about what other people think of your alignment.
I like this Highroller person. I hope they're town.
@whoever was interested: I voted rezombied for their #25, which felt really awkward. The whole "Ha vezok, didn't you read what grape said? Vote vezok" felt really icky to me.
I'll take a look at SJT/highroller tomorrow, when I don't have to hold a presentation in like 6 hours...
@Highroller and @KA: I used to think that mechanics > behaviour, but then I started designing games and nowadays I really don't put much trust in pure mechanical stuff, especially since I know some mods (like myself) like to screw over players trying to mod the game/flavour/mechanics...
Anyways, I'm really against all kind of claiming early on and while it kinda saddens me, I don't think any kind of flavour claiming is a good thing for us...
But, more stuff tomorrow, it's 3 AM here and I need to sleep.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
@KA You can pull them from both sides, but they don't normally move?
But really. Nothing, right? Also, why do you think Highroller is town at this point?
@Cantrip You mean your vote behind the wall of flavor wasn't RVS?
@GF You mean the people placing "both votes [that] are skeeving me out" re: rez/vez, or the people the votes are being placed on? Also, don't you think these answer each other:
Grape: Vezok wasn't defensive in Phantom Tollbooth. Defensiveness in this context is caring a lot about what other people think of your alignment.
I pretty strongly disagree with that assessment. Especially early. Strongly believe defensiveness is NAI for Vez. As for your definition I don't think it fits what Vez has done. 34 I'd agree is defensive but it's much more vociferous about his idea being valid/good play than really arguing that he's obviously town for it. 28 is a bit more about the alignment but most of it's centered on him defending his idea. There really isn't much indication there that he cares about how people are reading him.
@Bur okay that was my impression too. For another reason as well, Terry didn't really even break my request. Saying he doesn't care about the graveyard doesn't share his card type. It's more than I would have done, but it didn't even really violate what I said. So using my post to push Vezok there is a weird look.
@Dan I kept what exactly bugging me vague. As for the other quote that's just poor writing by me. It's a technically true statement, but I was more wondering why he brought it up and defending bringing it up if it wasn't something he much to say about.
This is just completely foreign to me. Why does a random lynching order set at the start of the game help at all?
Ok, so, I actually went back and looked this up, because I read it in an article, but upon reading the article's linked source, it turns out this was based on a variation of mafia that does not include nightkills, which I've not heard of. Apparently neither did the author of the article, as they erroneously thought the source was talking about normal mafia as well. Weird.
So yeah, the argument was that the town easily outnumber the mafia, so the odds of the last people being town are much higher. But this completely gets thrown out the window with nightkills. So rescinded.
That said I suspect you're right about two and the standard consensus is too anti claim. Especially in heavy PR games like this. I'm not in favor of a D1 mass claim here (or almost ever), but I think D3 and sometimes D2 claims are usually correct.
I have no understanding of the resistance towards a day one claim in a game in which everyone has a role.
Once again, the mafia's great advantage is that they know each other and the town does not know who they are. Therefore, they control the flow of information. Mafia at its heart is entirely about a single question, "Who are the mafia?" The towns need to figure out the answer, the mafia need to keep the townsfolk from figuring out who they are. It is therefore entirely in the mafia's advantage to keep the town as much in the dark as possible.
A day one claim benefits the town more than anyone. It grants a huge amount of information to the town, and forces the mafia to react and to come up with something with no time to think and no information to work off of. In effect, it flips the game around. Usually the townspeople must play on the mafia's terms, forced to react while the mafia hatches strategies. In a mass claim day one, the mafia are all put on the spot and forced to think of lies, almost always without the ability to coordinate with each other since they can't communicate during the day, and without any information from dead bodies to draw from.
While I agree with all of highroller's point for a normal or semi-normal game, I am totally opposed to a massclaim this game. Wuffles has spent way too long designing this game and a mass-claim would hinder the town mostly. I don't have a problem with people who claim day 1 if they believe it's for the greater good of the game, but it's not a good idea, highroller being an exception.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy. Check out the Shop Thread
While I agree with all of highroller's point for a normal or semi-normal game, I am totally opposed to a massclaim this game. Wuffles has spent way too long designing this game and a mass-claim would hinder the town mostly.
Simply put, it is impossible for me to control the actions of other players
I might exasperate people with this, but I'll hardly make them claim if they didn't really want to.
Right, youre not telling anyone to claim. But it looks like you're trying to get people to give up information about their roles.
And even if I actually thought that my post would influence anyone, I'd still do it as any alignment as I have a strong history of suggesting different types of mass-claims early game even though almost the entire MTGS playerbase considers it a bad idea.
I don't care. "I do this every game" isn't really a valid argument to me right now.
Well it should influence you.
I'm probably not gonna go do the research, so you saying 'i do this every game' doesn't matter to me.
Why would grape's opinion hold more sway than both my and highroller's?
1. Highroller came out with his thing.
2. Grape said: "I think that we probably shouldn't claim anything else based on flavor. My role cares about card types and I wouldn't be surprised if scum roles did too. "
3. You said "Don't know what to make of highroller's claim. It doesn't help my role."
I'm still anticipating Highroller's response to Bur.
Grape backed up their reasoning for not wanting people to claim anymore.
You didn't add anything of substance.
You can't claim I don't add anything of substance to this conversation, when I am not even in it. I purposefully ignored grape's post and did my thing.
We are talking about the conversation now because you brought it up. I didn't even oppose grape's point. I haven't claimed anything remotely important, but you act like I went against grape's advice and claimed my card and my entire role.
How can you say it's not important when someone else gave reasoning as to why that type of information is actually important?
I have a question for you rezombied: Why do you think people are voting you right now?
I don't care.
I don't care is not an answer to the posed question. I didn't ask you "how do you feel about people voting you?", but "why".
Either say that you don't know why people are voting you, even though I was asking for an educated guess or say that you don't care enough to answer my question.
It might not be the answer you want, but it is an answer.
@Vez Ok. What do you think of the mindset behind Rez's line of questioning here?
I can't be certain of it right now. That why I'm prodding him with questions and trying to keep the conversation going. It could come from bad intentioned scum or townie who's tunneling. All I know is that the reason for scumreading me is made up after my questioning and I've done similar stuff in the past as town when tunnelling on someone.
You didnt ask me any questions in the post you responded to me.
just because one player made a post suggesting people stop claiming, doesn't mean that is good advice.
what good are you hoping to achieve by not following it?
More information in the hands of players. I consider that the town as whole can make better decisions when they know more about the setup. Scum can look at 3 roles, while town only at one. A better understanding of the game mechanics leads to better actions.
I feel like flavor/card claiming--outside of claiming at L-2 or a later Day massclaim--is more likely to help scum in Night choices than it is to help town solve.
@cantrip: I knew that. I'm just of a different mindset that even useless flavor claiming is cool. Just for the fact that it's done so rarely. In this game totally oppose any kind of claiming until we are better settled in.
While I agree with all of highroller's point for a normal or semi-normal game, I am totally opposed to a massclaim this game. Wuffles has spent way too long designing this game and a mass-claim would hinder the town mostly.
How would it hinder the town?
This question will be answered at a later date, but suffice to say I have very strong reasons to believe this.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy. Check out the Shop Thread
[quote from="Grapefruit21 »" url="/forums/community-forums/mafia/799971-banned-mafia-day-1-carde-diem?comment=61"]*snip*
I have no understanding of the resistance towards a day one claim in a game in which everyone has a role.
While I agree with all of highroller's point for a normal or semi-normal game, I am totally opposed to a massclaim this game. Wuffles has spent way too long designing this game and a mass-claim would hinder the town mostly. I don't have a problem with people who claim day 1 if they believe it's for the greater good of the game, but it's not a good idea, highroller being an exception.
This isn't helpful but it's hilarious. For the record I think it's absolutely awful to mass claim early in a normal game. When people can just hide behind vanilla claims it doesn't accomplish much.
Here it could have upside if scum are low on manipulation, weren't given or can't come up with believeable fake claims, and we are able to design a useful best case scenario that doesn't rely on scum. Without knowing we'll have all three of those I think it's too risky and I'd much rather give information roles one night to be under the radar.
Anyway this isn't finding scum.
@Rezombified Why don't you care why people are voting you? And why do you think Vezok saying his role doesn't use the GY is valuable information? I'm of the opinion we should keep things very tight to the chest and that really doesn't give anything about his role or card type away.
Bur: I can't seem to quote your post without something weird happening, but as to "Why did you decide to claim this...?", I pretty much always claim Day 1. I would imagine Axelrod remembers this.
Uh, how many years ago are we talking? I think you overestimate my powers of recall.
I don't know why this isn't common practice. The town's advantage is numbers. The Mafia's advantage is that early on they have all of the relevant information, as no one knows who they are, they know who each other are, and therefore they can control the flow of information (hence why the mafia generally have two plays: 1. lurk, or 2. try to have one member take control of the town's discussion). The neutral role's advantage is that no one necessarily expects that they'll be in the game, and/or they have some sort of ability to compensate for their being greatly outnumbered.
The town have two ways to get rid of the mafia's inherent advantage:
1. Decide lynching order at the start of the game by random number generator, as the last people are more likely to be town than mafia, but this is easy to screw with, and frankly, takes 100% of the fun out of the game, however much it might make mathematical sense, thereby making it dumb and boring,
OR,
2. Roleclaim early. This generally breaks games unless the mod has put in planning to counter this strategy, and even then it doesn't generally put the town at a disadvantage, it just kind of gets them where they started.
My personal belief is that mass-claiming usually favors the town, even when mods have gone out of their way to try and design a set-up that they believe is resistant to mass claiming. Scum get their hands tied in ways they really don't like. Locked into claims (which they might have be having to fake) and then having to fake actions/results to dodge whatever abilities the Town is throwing around. Yes, the scum get to know about and potentially target high-priority/power Town roles, but - depending on the roles - they usually aren't just going to be able to do whatever they want, because the Town is now coordinating as well.
D1 mass claim does, however, turn it into kind of a different game. It becomes more of a math/logic problem than a game of deductive reasoning. I like logic problems, but YMMV.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
1. vezokpiraka makes an entire post (#34) talking about how he always advocates things like claiming and mass claims when he's voted against by rezombied for claiming stuff after Grapefruit advised against claiming, BUT on post #70 he's saying he's totally opposed to a massclaim, but also that he's completely ok with anyone else claiming if they think it's for the greater good of the game, but also that it’s not in the greater good of the game.
What the hell? We're supposed to pretend that makes sense and doesn't contradict itself multiple times?
2.
Quote from vezokpiraka »
I have a question for you rezombied: Why do you think people are voting you right now?
Why do YOU think people were voting for him?
There were two people voting for him. Bur posted literally nothing with regards to an explanation, and Cantripmancer posted something completely baffling.
3. Seriously, read Cantrip's post:
SOL seeking octogenarians or mature alpha gorillas for collaboration.
Must have pure motives and love grandfather clocks.
Respond here; I'll find you in your dreams.
Chromatics may apply, but YMMV.
I mean, is this a code that I'm the only one who didn't decipher, or did all of you just skim by it? No one else is gonna comment on this? We’re all just going to pretend that’s normal?
4.
While I agree with all of highroller's point for a normal or semi-normal game, I am totally opposed to a massclaim this game.
What.
What is “normal” and “semi-normal”? A normal game of mafia to me is just vanilla towns and mafia. A semi-normal game to me is vanilla towns, an inspector, a doctor, and mafia, maybe a serial killer.
How would it be beneficial to mass claim on that? The whole point of a mass claim is it forces the mafia to make up roles on the fly which would then later be scrutinized.
The logical course of action would be for us to go down or up the list and have each person claim. Either start at 1 and go to 12, with each numbered player claiming, or go from 12 up to 1. Either one.
Highroller, trivial example of how a massclaim can backfire if the mod intentionally designs the game to counter massclaims: imagine mafia has an ability that says "destroy target blue card" that fails if the target isn't blue. If we all claim the mafia knows exactly how to hit blue cards. The massclaim has given them free extra kills.
Also, what's "Normal" on this site is a fair bit more complicated. Look at the roles in Playstation Battle Royale for example.
Dislike that "catch" on vezok. It's not a hard contradiction.
I'm not really contradicting myself. I am against a mass claim in this game. Like if we voted on a massclaim I would vote again, because I believe it will hurt us more than help us. So far I have explained my position and my argument on that position. Now I don't know everyone's role so if anyone considers that it would help more than hurt to claim part of their role, I wouldn't be opposed to it.
A normal or semi-normal game for me and most of the people who play on MTGS means a game where there are only fairly standard roles with vanillas. There's a list of normal roles and it includes stuff like trackers, jailers or other things. Semi-normal for me just means that there might some not standard roles, but that they wouldn't be too complicated and in a small quantity. As an example, something like a reverse doc, it protects everyone who targets him, wouldn't be a normal role, but it's not hard to understand or drastically changes the way the game is played.
I consider this game to be very different than a normal as roles care about types of cards or goblins in graveyards. And just based on my role I think it would be better if the claiming is kept to a minimum.
Also the setup were everyone is vanilla is called mountainous.
About point 2: No idea why people were voting him. I assumed that bur voted him because his last post was scummy in his reasons, but cantrip is baffling me. I just wanted to hear his thoughts on that matter so I can decide if it's more likely they come from town or scum.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy. Check out the Shop Thread
Iso needs to interact with everyone.
I'd like to refrain from detailing my reads, because I'm still waiting on a bit of interaction with rezombied. I'll probably tell you my idea over the weekend.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy. Check out the Shop Thread
My obligatory "It's way too late, I should be sleeping" post.
I read through highroller/SJT interactions and hope Iso is not serious in #54.
HEY KAMI
Interact with me
I don't like highroller, but I think that has more to do his weird outlooks on playing the game/massclaiming/whatnot.
Also, I'm probably going to be VLA-ish till Tuesday. I have huge exams on Monday and Tuesday and I need to pass them both, so I'm going to dedicate my energy on reading the course books instead of this thread.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
@Dan & M00S12 & Grapefruit: Why are you only questioning one of the two naked votes that have been made this game?
Vez gets a lean-town for his responses to Rez. However...
@Vez: The mass flavor claim I proposed in Team 2 was 100% to generate reactions/conversation, and I would never have seriously pursued it (as either alignment) in a game like that. Same with a game like this; I feel like flavor/card claiming--outside of claiming at L-2 or a later Day massclaim--is more likely to help scum in Night choices than it is to help town solve.
I haven't seen a post from Rez that I've liked...although that may just be because I don't see where Rez is getting their conclusions from. Vote stays for now.
@Grape: Why do you want to explore whether Highroller is lying?
Bur had already voted. I thought it was a legit vote. Also who else had naked voted? I can't find it.
By the way, I'm opposed to a massclaim. Feels like it would just give mafia a kill order. I'm sure a lot of mafia roles can be twisted into town sounding abilities anyway.
For those wondering I don't really have any reads right now. Site meta here is pretty different than where I play so I'm trying to get over being bedazzled by walls.
Highroller, trivial example of how a massclaim can backfire if the mod intentionally designs the game to counter massclaims: imagine mafia has an ability that says "destroy target blue card" that fails if the target isn't blue. If we all claim the mafia knows exactly how to hit blue cards. The massclaim has given them free extra kills.
We shouldn't mass claim because the mafia might gain the ability to kill us?
The mafia already have the ability to kill us! Guess what? WE OUTNUMBER THEM! By about 3:1. The reason why townspeople lose is that they don't know who to vote for, which is why they need information. A mass claim gets us that.
Dislike that "catch" on vezok. It's not a hard contradiction.
Of course it is. He said he supports mass claims, but then doesn't support a mass claim, which makes no sense. He says he supports a Day 2 mass claim, but not a Day 1 mass claim, which makes no sense. He says he is totally against people claiming day 1, but is also ok with people claiming day 1, which makes no sense.
They are hard contradictions. You cannot have P and also not-P, that's basic logic.
I'm not really contradicting myself. I am against a mass claim in this game. Like if we voted on a massclaim I would vote again, because I believe it will hurt us more than help us. So far I have explained my position and my argument on that position.
You not only haven't explained that even slightly, but you ignored my post entirely when I asked you to explain that earlier.
Explain how that would hinder the town more than help us. Especially since you even said you'd support a day 2 mass claim over a day 1 one. Literally the only difference between those two is that the mafia have two dead bodies, and in turn dead roles, to scrutinize and a full night of communicating between each other to make up a plan, whereas day one they're blindsided and far more likely to make a mistake. You cannot say a Day 2 mass claim would help us and not agree that a Day 1 claim will help us more. The only difference waiting a day will do is give the mafia more time to strategize.
Once again, the whole thing to balance the fact that we outnumber the mafia 3:1 is the fact that the mafia hold all the information and can make us play on their terms. Reversing this removes their advantage.
So yeah, I'd love to hear the reason you come up with for why this would hurt us.
Now I don't know everyone's role so if anyone considers that it would help more than hurt to claim part of their role, I wouldn't be opposed to it.
So you're in favor of mass claims when someone calls you out on YOU claiming part of your role and voting you for it, but then you're totally against a mass claim today, but IN THE SAME POST say you're totally fine with people claiming, even though you were totally against it a few punctuation marks before. So which is it?
A normal or semi-normal game for me and most of the people who play on MTGS means a game where there are only fairly standard roles with vanillas.
So how in the hell would a mass claim help? The whole point of mass claiming doesn't work when the mafia can just claim vanilla, it only works when everyone has a role and the mafia need to invent one.
And just based on my role I think it would be better if the claiming is kept to a minimum.
Again, so you support claiming all the time on page 1, but now on page 2 you're totally against it except if someone else is claiming and then you're totally fine with it?
Are you mafia or just that completely inept at being town?
About point 2: No idea why people were voting him. I assumed that bur voted him because his last post was scummy in his reasons, but cantrip is baffling me. I just wanted to hear his thoughts on that matter so I can decide if it's more likely they come from town or scum.
So wait, so why are you hounding rezombied for him not caring why two people ON PAGE ONE OF DAY ONE are voting for him without any explanation at all? Why should he care about this, and why are you acting like this is suspicious?
Vote vezokpiraka. Seriously, this whole suspicion train against rezombied needs to be thoroughly scrutinized. Why the hell would anyone give a crap about two people randomly voting for him/her on the first page of the first day? I would have given the exact same response, because I wouldn't give a damn, they voted without any explanation at all, who cares? But now people are actually acting like it's this bewildering thing that he answered that he didn't care? No, that's dumb, and the suspicion-mongering is something we definitely need to all take note of.
Quote from Grapefruit21 »
@Highroller I think cantrips puzzle is pretty straightforward.
Congratulations, would you care to tell us what it means?
@Dan & M00S12 & Grapefruit: Why are you only questioning one of the two naked votes that have been made this game?
-snip- @Grape: Why do you want to explore whether Highroller is lying?
Because I missed your vote below the vault of gobbledygook.
Nuts. I wondered about that after I posted it. :/
Quote from Grape »
Why the vote?
I saw his vote on Vez for the soft aspect-claim as too extreme, like scum trying to attack on something they thought was more significant than it really was.
Quote from Grape »
And I'm not particularly curious about highroller's claim. I'm curious why Vez didn't know what to think of it but had so little to say about it. I agree his reactions to Rezomibe felt solid but I still am weirdly pinged the way he felt compelled to talk about Highroller's claim but didn't say anything in doing so.
Ah, I misread your question. I thought you were asking it to the general thread, not just Vez.
@Dan: No, the vote on Iso was RVS; the vote on Rez was serious. I almost put a "serious vote" tag on it, but...meh, whatever.
@M00S12: I naked voted in my first post, but, as evidenced, I did it so poorly that at least two players missed it and another just assumed it was RVS, so... meh. Never mind.
@Highroller: I don't feel like Vezok's mass claim liking and partial claiming but not wanting to mass claim is nearly as significant as you're making it out to be. I also...mostly don't feel like scum picks "hey guys massclaim on D1 is best strategy" as the hill to die on. If you're scum, I hand it to you as a very original approach, and part of me wants to try it, but then another part of me feels like it has a lot of potential to backfire and I'd rather not just hand the scum a list of high and low priority targets. Does a mass claim have potential to give us tools to optimally solve the game? Yeah, maybe, but since at that point the scum STILL have more information than we do (namely, who the scum are and if any of them are lying), I feel like they'll have more of a chance to use that information to their benefit than we will.
Like, if we had massclaimed in Phantom Tollbooth, I would have a) been way less likely to perform the kill knowing that RE was a tracker, and b) would have been more willing to chance killing RE or c) would have argued to kill ReverseRoot/Albertino because he's the protective role. And the scum in that game had giftwrapped fake claims (complete with explanation/flavor of abilities). I suppose there's a chance that people would have gone, hey, Cantrip's role has a lot of overlap with multiple other roles, he's more likely scum, but I think in the long run, it would have served us better than what happened (ok, well, truth be told, pretty much ANYTHING would have been better than what happened, but...)
tl;dr: I want to think your idea is good, but I strongly suspect it's bad. Sorry.
Also, thank you for making me laugh when I read your #79. I mean, sorry for being confusing, but your confusion and exasperation made me smile. Also also, I'm not going to discuss that part of my first post further at this time. You and others are welcome to discuss it as much as you want, but I will neither confirm nor deny any theories that are put forth. Players who think they know what I'm talking about can respond accordingly and we'll go from there.
(See, a mass claim would just ruin all this mysterious fun, don't you think? )
@Highroller: I don't feel like Vezok's mass claim liking and partial claiming but not wanting to mass claim is nearly as significant as you're making it out to be.
Read his posts. He's saying he advocates a day two claim but not a day one claim. That makes exactly ZERO sense for the town. If there is a day to mass claim, the most advantageous one is right now, when the mafia has the least amount of information to draw false claims off of. Once again, all that changes from a day two mass claim versus a day one mass claim is the mafia has two more deaths to scrutinize, and an entire night to plan false claims. This hits them when they are the most vulnerable.
I'd rather not just hand the scum a list of high and low priority targets.
Realistically, what is the worst case scenario here? That the doctor and inspector are outed? We outnumber the mafia about 3:1 in a 12 person game. Worst case scenario, the mafia kill the inspector night two after killing the doctor night one. Either way, we get one confirmed town or confirmed mafia by the inspector, and we tremendously increase our chances of lynching a mafia during either one of those two days. Remember that it's a 12-person game. The mafia become significantly weakened with each member loss.
@Highroller it's hinting at his claim and points to 1 of 3 cards. 2 of them have similar abilities. I don't know how they'd translate into this game. But I'm anti claiming today so I don't want to really start speculating.
Anyway if you think I'm obviously mafia why are you voting Vez over me? Your case on him boils down to he is scum that is afraid to go against the flow on claiming. Seems a fair bit weaker than me being obviously mafia.
We have 12 people in this game. General ratio of town to mafia is 3:1. Meaning about 9 towns, 3 mafia. There's the possibility of a serial killer in this game, but I think it's more likely there's one of those neutral roles with an alternative win-condition that leaves them winning and the town and mafia fighting for second, given the game size.
As it stands, let's assume 9 towns:3 mafia. Assuming the towns are unsuccessful at lynching a mafia each day, and the mafia successfully kill a town each night, we lose Day 4. So we have to lynch a mafia in the next three days, or else hope for a successful doctor protect at least one of those nights.
Once again, the smart play here, the one that gives us the optimal chance of lynching mafia, is to go down the list of players, either in ascending numerical order and descending numerical order, and all claim. This is the best chance of catching a mafia in a lie, and the best chance to assess who are the most likely mafia candidates.
Let me remind you also that this is the scenario that is the absolute worst case for the mafia to be in: being forced to claim not knowing what roles are actually plausible claim positions, without the ability to coordinate with fellow teammates, and without having any dead people to reference when making up claims.
So, for those of you who are against it, what is the alternative strategy here? Mass claiming Day 2 or 3, when the mafia already have a sizable number of people to scrutinize, and less towns to worry about who might potentially counterclaim them? Is that our play? Give the mafia more time to formulate their lies, and give them time to coordinate their stories, instead of separating them and giving them no time to think? Is that wisdom?
What's the alternative strategy to that? Blind guessing?
Anyway if you think I'm obviously mafia why are you voting Vez over me? Your case on him boils down to he is scum that is afraid to go against the flow on claiming.
I'm fine with lynching either of you, actually. But that's acceptable to me. Unvote, vote Grapefruit21.
My case on him, incidentally, is not because he is afraid to go against the flow on claiming. It's primarily because of this dumb interrogation of rezombied for his crime of not giving a crap about two random-ass votes day one - of which you are also a part of, fancy that. This is, of course, in addition to his statement last page of how he's always willing to go against the flow on claiming, only to switch it this page to him being categorically against claiming, unless someone actually does it, in which case he's fine with it. This is, of course, in addition to him saying he's totally fine with a Day 2 massclaim, which is the same exact damn thing as a Day 1 massclaim, except that the mafia have more time, information, and coordination to think of false claims.
But I think it's pretty blatant you're mafia. Repeated passive-aggressive maneuverings of suspicion, all the while avoiding doing anything that might bring you too much attention? Yeah, I'd bet my bottom dollar on you being mafia.
@Highroller yeah I'm poking at things as they come up, it's called scum hunting. I think it's fairly obvious from my posts I'm very suspicious of KA and Terry (probably not together), slightly pinged by Bur, confused by rezombie, and feeling alright about Vez.
As for your plan it's bad. It assumes the numbers advantage will overcome the targeting advantage scum gain. My last scum game in a powered game like this was pirates mafia. And team was dying to claim 2 of our roles because they were verifiable and looked townie. The third one could pass. We would have loved having the information early and been better able to organize night actions. We won largely because our roles made us valuable post mass claim and looked townie. It also let us figure out who was safe to kill based on the protective reads (though we failed 1 guess badly) and knew one person wasn't going to be tracked so they could safely kill.
It's an extreme example but the mass claim cinched that game for us. And wouldn't have hurt us if it happened D1 iirc.
I have a question for most of you. I hope my post in understandable for a native speaker, because highroller makes it seem like I posted non-sense when not even half of what he is talking about it true.
@highroller: Firstly, I don't really know where you got the idea I'd be ok with mass-claiming day 2. I'm ok with a massclaim at the earliest on day 3 if we haven't caught any scum. Otherwise I'd prefer it being pushed as far as possible.
But talking generally, about other games, not this one, a mass claim day 2 forces scum to also claim actions and might catch them in a contradiction with a much higher chance than simply botching a claim. I also don't believe that scum could be so clueless and not to claim something at least passable on day 1.
Quote from wuffles sign ups »
There are nine town and three mafia in this setup.
So please stop with this useless idea that there might be third parties in this game as it's mod confirmed they aren't. Also the prevailing meta on MTGS is that scum have daytalk so they don't have to wait until night to co-ordinate.
I understand that I wasn't extremely clear on what I meant here, but you've parsed about 25% of my words and just decided to roll with it.
Secondly, I take offence that you are accusing me of hounding rezombified. I have asked him one question for the purposes of ascertaining his alignment, which he refused to answer. I don't really find that scummy. In fact if you would've read my post you'd know I'm undecided about rezombied and even called his behaviour townie.
Now I don't really know what's your problem, but I am not going to respond to baseless accusations that I've already talked about in other posts.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy. Check out the Shop Thread
@Vez Ok. What do you think of the mindset behind Rez's line of questioning here?
I can't be certain of it right now. That why I'm prodding him with questions and trying to keep the conversation going. It could come from bad intentioned scum or townie who's tunneling. All I know is that the reason for scumreading me is made up after my questioning and I've done similar stuff in the past as town when tunnelling on someone.
About point 2: No idea why people were voting him. I assumed that bur voted him because his last post was scummy in his reasons, but cantrip is baffling me. I just wanted to hear his thoughts on that matter so I can decide if it's more likely they come from town or scum.
So wait, so why are you hounding rezombied for him not caring why two people ON PAGE ONE OF DAY ONE are voting for him without any explanation at all? Why should he care about this, and why are you acting like this is suspicious?
Vote vezokpiraka. Seriously, this whole suspicion train against rezombied needs to be thoroughly scrutinized. Why the hell would anyone give a crap about two people randomly voting for him/her on the first page of the first day? I would have given the exact same response, because I wouldn't give a damn, they voted without any explanation at all, who cares? But now people are actually acting like it's this bewildering thing that he answered that he didn't care? No, that's dumb, and the suspicion-mongering is something we definitely need to all take note of.
I'll just leave this here.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy. Check out the Shop Thread
@highroller: Firstly, I don't really know where you got the idea I'd be ok with mass-claiming day 2. I'm ok with a massclaim at the earliest on day 3 if we haven't caught any scum. Otherwise I'd prefer it being pushed as far as possible.
Now in this, I am in the wrong, and I sincerely apologize. I confused a post of Grapefruit's with a post of yours.
That said I suspect you're right about two and the standard consensus is too anti claim. Especially in heavy PR games like this. I'm not in favor of a D1 mass claim here (or almost ever), but I think D3 and sometimes D2 claims are usually correct.
So my apologies. This further reinforces my vote of Grapefruit.
But talking generally, about other games, not this one, a mass claim day 2 forces scum to also claim actions and might catch them in a contradiction with a much higher chance than simply botching a claim. I also don't believe that scum could be so clueless and not to claim something at least passable on day 1.
This is ridiculous. The mafia have less information to work with on a day with no one dead than one a day with two people dead, and far less than on a day with four people dead. That's basic common sense. We hit the mafia on the absolute worst time today. Saying this day is worse than Day 2 or Day 3 is baseless.
So please stop with this useless idea that there might be third parties in this game as it's mod confirmed they aren't.
All I know is that I have the ability to create neutral roles. I will rule nothing out with regards to other neutral roles existing.
Secondly, I take offence that you are accusing me of hounding rezombified.
I don't care is not an answer to the posed question. I didn't ask you "how do you feel about people voting you?", but "why".
Either say that you don't know why people are voting you, even though I was asking for an educated guess or say that you don't care enough to answer my question.
If you're going to demand an answer to a completely pointless question, then don't get offended when someone points out that you're making demands. If the boot fits...
Now I don't really know what's your problem, but I am not going to respond to baseless accusations that I've already talked about in other posts.
What you haven't done is give any basis for why a mass claim would harm the town more than the mafia. Still waiting on that, btw.
Sure. Why are you ignoring the fact that Highroller is probably a Neutral once a certain death threshold per each/any alignment is reached? Because that's exactly what I read his most recent role spew as.
Just...in what universe does that exist on a townie?
-
@Highroller: I wouldn't worry about that, just yet (RE: Grapefruit). I always think he's scum when I read his posts, too. Fortunately, I haven't retained any of the information I've read in any of his posts, so that hasn't yet colored my read of him.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Vez gets a lean-town for his responses to Rez. However...
@Vez: The mass flavor claim I proposed in Team 2 was 100% to generate reactions/conversation, and I would never have seriously pursued it (as either alignment) in a game like that. Same with a game like this; I feel like flavor/card claiming--outside of claiming at L-2 or a later Day massclaim--is more likely to help scum in Night choices than it is to help town solve.
I haven't seen a post from Rez that I've liked...although that may just be because I don't see where Rez is getting their conclusions from. Vote stays for now.
@Grape: Why do you want to explore whether Highroller is lying?
I don't understand your question about snipping.
I do not think highroller is lying and I think it's a moderately good thing he claimed. There are probably multiple roles that need to use the goblin he creates as a resource.
As a sidenote: KA's is right. I was being extremely defensive because I was bored and wanted to stir ***** up. He's wrong about that making me scum though.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
Because I missed your vote below the vault of gobbledygook.
Why the vote?
And I'm not particularly curious about highroller's claim. I'm curious why Vez didn't know what to think of it but had so little to say about it. I agree his reactions to Rezomibe felt solid but I still am weirdly pinged the way he felt compelled to talk about Highroller's claim but didn't say anything in doing so.
No, but I've also decided that you're scum with Highroller. That's at least 67% of the game solved!
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Gotcha, I was just lost about the relevance of bringing it up. I think the fact that scum!cantrip was doing it to stir up reactions is probably a good sign it can be scum+. Not as a rule or anything just as a base scenario.
On the first part it doesn't matter really. I just meant you removed my saying my card was one of my favorites from your quote saying you loved your card too.
On the second then why did you say: ?
I don't mean this in a attacking or negative way but you often read as defensive. And the fact that you tend to, and did in your last shared game that just finished, makes his conclusion baffling.
@cantrip: I knew that. I'm just of a different mindset that even useless flavor claiming is cool. Just for the fact that it's done so rarely. In this game totally oppose any kind of claiming until we are better settled in.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
That's because it was commenting for commenting's sake. It's in the same post where I say I'm excited about my card. The post was never intended to be analysed so deeply.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
Guess I'll need to re-examine things.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I actually have a second ability that activates when I die. I am able to create two goblin corpses to add to the graveyard including my own. They can be any goblin card I want (spoiler warning: at least one of them is definitely going to be Goblin Gardener. Believe in the sausage tree, man. Believe in your dreams!), and are either townie, mafia, or neutral. Again, no idea what this does, but the presence of neutrality indicates there are probably other neutrals in the game.
Bur: I can't seem to quote your post without something weird happening, but as to "Why did you decide to claim this...?", I pretty much always claim Day 1. I would imagine Axelrod remembers this.
I don't know why this isn't common practice. The town's advantage is numbers. The Mafia's advantage is that early on they have all of the relevant information, as no one knows who they are, they know who each other are, and therefore they can control the flow of information (hence why the mafia generally have two plays: 1. lurk, or 2. try to have one member take control of the town's discussion). The neutral role's advantage is that no one necessarily expects that they'll be in the game, and/or they have some sort of ability to compensate for their being greatly outnumbered.
The town have two ways to get rid of the mafia's inherent advantage:
1. Decide lynching order at the start of the game by random number generator, as the last people are more likely to be town than mafia, but this is easy to screw with, and frankly, takes 100% of the fun out of the game, however much it might make mathematical sense, thereby making it dumb and boring,
OR,
2. Roleclaim early. This generally breaks games unless the mod has put in planning to counter this strategy, and even then it doesn't generally put the town at a disadvantage, it just kind of gets them where they started.
Yeah, it really doesn't make sense, does it? I interpret it as there's literally no other place to put goblins. Though frankly, I feel it would have made a lot more sense to give me the ability to cast more than one vote or something, though that's probably too imba.
Well that is interesting. Maybe there is a Deathrite Shaman in this game (I figured the cards used in the art just wouldn't be in the game). Still expect a Yawgmoth's will. Dig through time or treasure cruise could play off that as well. I'm drawing blanks on other banned cards that care about graveyards. Nothing in dredge except Bazaar is banned anywhere these days. And Bazaar wouldn't care about the cards in the GY already. Hmmm...
This is just completely foreign to me. Why does a random lynching order set at the start of the game help at all? Why does that improve odds compared to lynching based on reads/behavior/mechanics? Just completely lost by how that does anything helpful.
That said I suspect you're right about two and the standard consensus is too anti claim. Especially in heavy PR games like this. I'm not in favor of a D1 mass claim here (or almost ever), but I think D3 and sometimes D2 claims are usually correct.
@Vez Fair enough. It definitely generated some reactions. I'm really geeking out about this setup as well.
Vote: Terry
Grape: Vezok wasn't defensive in Phantom Tollbooth. Defensiveness in this context is caring a lot about what other people think of your alignment.
I like this Highroller person. I hope they're town.
I'll take a look at SJT/highroller tomorrow, when I don't have to hold a presentation in like 6 hours...
@Highroller and @KA: I used to think that mechanics > behaviour, but then I started designing games and nowadays I really don't put much trust in pure mechanical stuff, especially since I know some mods (like myself) like to screw over players trying to mod the game/flavour/mechanics...
Anyways, I'm really against all kind of claiming early on and while it kinda saddens me, I don't think any kind of flavour claiming is a good thing for us...
But, more stuff tomorrow, it's 3 AM here and I need to sleep.
But really. Nothing, right? Also, why do you think Highroller is town at this point?
@Cantrip You mean your vote behind the wall of flavor wasn't RVS?
@GF You mean the people placing "both votes [that] are skeeving me out" re: rez/vez, or the people the votes are being placed on? Also, don't you think these answer each other: And the Terry vote? I'm not sure where your thought progression was between 50 and 61.
@Iso You also don't care to share with the class?
Any single part of the elephant tells me nothing. I will find out what the elephant looks like by combining the parts.
More plainly: I don't really care what I get out of the answer immediately. I will use it later to determine if there's a pattern.
No, I hope they're town.
I pretty strongly disagree with that assessment. Especially early. Strongly believe defensiveness is NAI for Vez. As for your definition I don't think it fits what Vez has done. 34 I'd agree is defensive but it's much more vociferous about his idea being valid/good play than really arguing that he's obviously town for it. 28 is a bit more about the alignment but most of it's centered on him defending his idea. There really isn't much indication there that he cares about how people are reading him.
@Bur okay that was my impression too. For another reason as well, Terry didn't really even break my request. Saying he doesn't care about the graveyard doesn't share his card type. It's more than I would have done, but it didn't even really violate what I said. So using my post to push Vezok there is a weird look.
@Dan I kept what exactly bugging me vague. As for the other quote that's just poor writing by me. It's a technically true statement, but I was more wondering why he brought it up and defending bringing it up if it wasn't something he much to say about.
So yeah, the argument was that the town easily outnumber the mafia, so the odds of the last people being town are much higher. But this completely gets thrown out the window with nightkills. So rescinded.
I have no understanding of the resistance towards a day one claim in a game in which everyone has a role.
Once again, the mafia's great advantage is that they know each other and the town does not know who they are. Therefore, they control the flow of information. Mafia at its heart is entirely about a single question, "Who are the mafia?" The towns need to figure out the answer, the mafia need to keep the townsfolk from figuring out who they are. It is therefore entirely in the mafia's advantage to keep the town as much in the dark as possible.
A day one claim benefits the town more than anyone. It grants a huge amount of information to the town, and forces the mafia to react and to come up with something with no time to think and no information to work off of. In effect, it flips the game around. Usually the townspeople must play on the mafia's terms, forced to react while the mafia hatches strategies. In a mass claim day one, the mafia are all put on the spot and forced to think of lies, almost always without the ability to coordinate with each other since they can't communicate during the day, and without any information from dead bodies to draw from.
I don't see why we wouldn't do this, frankly.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
It does to me.
I'm probably not gonna go do the research, so you saying 'i do this every game' doesn't matter to me.
How can you say it's not important when someone else gave reasoning as to why that type of information is actually important?
It might not be the answer you want, but it is an answer.
-----
Obligated to do what?
------
You didnt ask me any questions in the post you responded to me.
-----
This is weird and I don't like it.
This question will be answered at a later date, but suffice to say I have very strong reasons to believe this.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
Why don't you like the exchange between me and catrip?
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
This isn't helpful but it's hilarious. For the record I think it's absolutely awful to mass claim early in a normal game. When people can just hide behind vanilla claims it doesn't accomplish much.
Here it could have upside if scum are low on manipulation, weren't given or can't come up with believeable fake claims, and we are able to design a useful best case scenario that doesn't rely on scum. Without knowing we'll have all three of those I think it's too risky and I'd much rather give information roles one night to be under the radar.
Anyway this isn't finding scum.
@Rezombified Why don't you care why people are voting you? And why do you think Vezok saying his role doesn't use the GY is valuable information? I'm of the opinion we should keep things very tight to the chest and that really doesn't give anything about his role or card type away.
Uh, how many years ago are we talking? I think you overestimate my powers of recall.
My personal belief is that mass-claiming usually favors the town, even when mods have gone out of their way to try and design a set-up that they believe is resistant to mass claiming. Scum get their hands tied in ways they really don't like. Locked into claims (which they might have be having to fake) and then having to fake actions/results to dodge whatever abilities the Town is throwing around. Yes, the scum get to know about and potentially target high-priority/power Town roles, but - depending on the roles - they usually aren't just going to be able to do whatever they want, because the Town is now coordinating as well.
D1 mass claim does, however, turn it into kind of a different game. It becomes more of a math/logic problem than a game of deductive reasoning. I like logic problems, but YMMV.
1. vezokpiraka makes an entire post (#34) talking about how he always advocates things like claiming and mass claims when he's voted against by rezombied for claiming stuff after Grapefruit advised against claiming, BUT on post #70 he's saying he's totally opposed to a massclaim, but also that he's completely ok with anyone else claiming if they think it's for the greater good of the game, but also that it’s not in the greater good of the game.
What the hell? We're supposed to pretend that makes sense and doesn't contradict itself multiple times?
2.
Why do YOU think people were voting for him?
There were two people voting for him. Bur posted literally nothing with regards to an explanation, and Cantripmancer posted something completely baffling.
3. Seriously, read Cantrip's post:
I mean, is this a code that I'm the only one who didn't decipher, or did all of you just skim by it? No one else is gonna comment on this? We’re all just going to pretend that’s normal?
4.
What.
What is “normal” and “semi-normal”? A normal game of mafia to me is just vanilla towns and mafia. A semi-normal game to me is vanilla towns, an inspector, a doctor, and mafia, maybe a serial killer.
How would it be beneficial to mass claim on that? The whole point of a mass claim is it forces the mafia to make up roles on the fly which would then later be scrutinized.
The logical course of action would be for us to go down or up the list and have each person claim. Either start at 1 and go to 12, with each numbered player claiming, or go from 12 up to 1. Either one.
Also, what's "Normal" on this site is a fair bit more complicated. Look at the roles in Playstation Battle Royale for example.
Dislike that "catch" on vezok. It's not a hard contradiction.
A normal or semi-normal game for me and most of the people who play on MTGS means a game where there are only fairly standard roles with vanillas. There's a list of normal roles and it includes stuff like trackers, jailers or other things. Semi-normal for me just means that there might some not standard roles, but that they wouldn't be too complicated and in a small quantity. As an example, something like a reverse doc, it protects everyone who targets him, wouldn't be a normal role, but it's not hard to understand or drastically changes the way the game is played.
I consider this game to be very different than a normal as roles care about types of cards or goblins in graveyards. And just based on my role I think it would be better if the claiming is kept to a minimum.
Also the setup were everyone is vanilla is called mountainous.
About point 2: No idea why people were voting him. I assumed that bur voted him because his last post was scummy in his reasons, but cantrip is baffling me. I just wanted to hear his thoughts on that matter so I can decide if it's more likely they come from town or scum.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
interact with me
HEY VEZOK
tell me your reads.
Iso needs to interact with everyone.
I'd like to refrain from detailing my reads, because I'm still waiting on a bit of interaction with rezombied. I'll probably tell you my idea over the weekend.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
What do you think that says about highroller?
I read through highroller/SJT interactions and hope Iso is not serious in #54.
HEY KAMI
Interact with me
I don't like highroller, but I think that has more to do his weird outlooks on playing the game/massclaiming/whatnot.
Also, I'm probably going to be VLA-ish till Tuesday. I have huge exams on Monday and Tuesday and I need to pass them both, so I'm going to dedicate my energy on reading the course books instead of this thread.
Bur had already voted. I thought it was a legit vote. Also who else had naked voted? I can't find it.
By the way, I'm opposed to a massclaim. Feels like it would just give mafia a kill order. I'm sure a lot of mafia roles can be twisted into town sounding abilities anyway.
For those wondering I don't really have any reads right now. Site meta here is pretty different than where I play so I'm trying to get over being bedazzled by walls.
The mafia already have the ability to kill us! Guess what? WE OUTNUMBER THEM! By about 3:1. The reason why townspeople lose is that they don't know who to vote for, which is why they need information. A mass claim gets us that.
Of course it is. He said he supports mass claims, but then doesn't support a mass claim, which makes no sense. He says he supports a Day 2 mass claim, but not a Day 1 mass claim, which makes no sense. He says he is totally against people claiming day 1, but is also ok with people claiming day 1, which makes no sense.
They are hard contradictions. You cannot have P and also not-P, that's basic logic.
You not only haven't explained that even slightly, but you ignored my post entirely when I asked you to explain that earlier.
Explain how that would hinder the town more than help us. Especially since you even said you'd support a day 2 mass claim over a day 1 one. Literally the only difference between those two is that the mafia have two dead bodies, and in turn dead roles, to scrutinize and a full night of communicating between each other to make up a plan, whereas day one they're blindsided and far more likely to make a mistake. You cannot say a Day 2 mass claim would help us and not agree that a Day 1 claim will help us more. The only difference waiting a day will do is give the mafia more time to strategize.
Once again, the whole thing to balance the fact that we outnumber the mafia 3:1 is the fact that the mafia hold all the information and can make us play on their terms. Reversing this removes their advantage.
So yeah, I'd love to hear the reason you come up with for why this would hurt us.
So you're in favor of mass claims when someone calls you out on YOU claiming part of your role and voting you for it, but then you're totally against a mass claim today, but IN THE SAME POST say you're totally fine with people claiming, even though you were totally against it a few punctuation marks before. So which is it?
So how in the hell would a mass claim help? The whole point of mass claiming doesn't work when the mafia can just claim vanilla, it only works when everyone has a role and the mafia need to invent one.
Again, so you support claiming all the time on page 1, but now on page 2 you're totally against it except if someone else is claiming and then you're totally fine with it?
Are you mafia or just that completely inept at being town?
So wait, so why are you hounding rezombied for him not caring why two people ON PAGE ONE OF DAY ONE are voting for him without any explanation at all? Why should he care about this, and why are you acting like this is suspicious?
Vote vezokpiraka. Seriously, this whole suspicion train against rezombied needs to be thoroughly scrutinized. Why the hell would anyone give a crap about two people randomly voting for him/her on the first page of the first day? I would have given the exact same response, because I wouldn't give a damn, they voted without any explanation at all, who cares? But now people are actually acting like it's this bewildering thing that he answered that he didn't care? No, that's dumb, and the suspicion-mongering is something we definitely need to all take note of.
Congratulations, would you care to tell us what it means?
I saw his vote on Vez for the soft aspect-claim as too extreme, like scum trying to attack on something they thought was more significant than it really was.
Ah, I misread your question. I thought you were asking it to the general thread, not just Vez.
@Dan: No, the vote on Iso was RVS; the vote on Rez was serious. I almost put a "serious vote" tag on it, but...meh, whatever.
@M00S12: I naked voted in my first post, but, as evidenced, I did it so poorly that at least two players missed it and another just assumed it was RVS, so... meh. Never mind.
@Highroller: I don't feel like Vezok's mass claim liking and partial claiming but not wanting to mass claim is nearly as significant as you're making it out to be. I also...mostly don't feel like scum picks "hey guys massclaim on D1 is best strategy" as the hill to die on. If you're scum, I hand it to you as a very original approach, and part of me wants to try it, but then another part of me feels like it has a lot of potential to backfire and I'd rather not just hand the scum a list of high and low priority targets. Does a mass claim have potential to give us tools to optimally solve the game? Yeah, maybe, but since at that point the scum STILL have more information than we do (namely, who the scum are and if any of them are lying), I feel like they'll have more of a chance to use that information to their benefit than we will.
Like, if we had massclaimed in Phantom Tollbooth, I would have a) been way less likely to perform the kill knowing that RE was a tracker, and b) would have been more willing to chance killing RE or c) would have argued to kill ReverseRoot/Albertino because he's the protective role. And the scum in that game had giftwrapped fake claims (complete with explanation/flavor of abilities). I suppose there's a chance that people would have gone, hey, Cantrip's role has a lot of overlap with multiple other roles, he's more likely scum, but I think in the long run, it would have served us better than what happened (ok, well, truth be told, pretty much ANYTHING would have been better than what happened, but...)
tl;dr: I want to think your idea is good, but I strongly suspect it's bad. Sorry.
Also, thank you for making me laugh when I read your #79. I mean, sorry for being confusing, but your confusion and exasperation made me smile. Also also, I'm not going to discuss that part of my first post further at this time. You and others are welcome to discuss it as much as you want, but I will neither confirm nor deny any theories that are put forth. Players who think they know what I'm talking about can respond accordingly and we'll go from there.
(See, a mass claim would just ruin all this mysterious fun, don't you think? )
I'm out of time for the moment, so...more later.
Read his posts. He's saying he advocates a day two claim but not a day one claim. That makes exactly ZERO sense for the town. If there is a day to mass claim, the most advantageous one is right now, when the mafia has the least amount of information to draw false claims off of. Once again, all that changes from a day two mass claim versus a day one mass claim is the mafia has two more deaths to scrutinize, and an entire night to plan false claims. This hits them when they are the most vulnerable.
Realistically, what is the worst case scenario here? That the doctor and inspector are outed? We outnumber the mafia about 3:1 in a 12 person game. Worst case scenario, the mafia kill the inspector night two after killing the doctor night one. Either way, we get one confirmed town or confirmed mafia by the inspector, and we tremendously increase our chances of lynching a mafia during either one of those two days. Remember that it's a 12-person game. The mafia become significantly weakened with each member loss.
Anyway if you think I'm obviously mafia why are you voting Vez over me? Your case on him boils down to he is scum that is afraid to go against the flow on claiming. Seems a fair bit weaker than me being obviously mafia.
We have 12 people in this game. General ratio of town to mafia is 3:1. Meaning about 9 towns, 3 mafia. There's the possibility of a serial killer in this game, but I think it's more likely there's one of those neutral roles with an alternative win-condition that leaves them winning and the town and mafia fighting for second, given the game size.
As it stands, let's assume 9 towns:3 mafia. Assuming the towns are unsuccessful at lynching a mafia each day, and the mafia successfully kill a town each night, we lose Day 4. So we have to lynch a mafia in the next three days, or else hope for a successful doctor protect at least one of those nights.
Once again, the smart play here, the one that gives us the optimal chance of lynching mafia, is to go down the list of players, either in ascending numerical order and descending numerical order, and all claim. This is the best chance of catching a mafia in a lie, and the best chance to assess who are the most likely mafia candidates.
Let me remind you also that this is the scenario that is the absolute worst case for the mafia to be in: being forced to claim not knowing what roles are actually plausible claim positions, without the ability to coordinate with fellow teammates, and without having any dead people to reference when making up claims.
So, for those of you who are against it, what is the alternative strategy here? Mass claiming Day 2 or 3, when the mafia already have a sizable number of people to scrutinize, and less towns to worry about who might potentially counterclaim them? Is that our play? Give the mafia more time to formulate their lies, and give them time to coordinate their stories, instead of separating them and giving them no time to think? Is that wisdom?
What's the alternative strategy to that? Blind guessing?
I'm fine with lynching either of you, actually. But that's acceptable to me. Unvote, vote Grapefruit21.
My case on him, incidentally, is not because he is afraid to go against the flow on claiming. It's primarily because of this dumb interrogation of rezombied for his crime of not giving a crap about two random-ass votes day one - of which you are also a part of, fancy that. This is, of course, in addition to his statement last page of how he's always willing to go against the flow on claiming, only to switch it this page to him being categorically against claiming, unless someone actually does it, in which case he's fine with it. This is, of course, in addition to him saying he's totally fine with a Day 2 massclaim, which is the same exact damn thing as a Day 1 massclaim, except that the mafia have more time, information, and coordination to think of false claims.
But I think it's pretty blatant you're mafia. Repeated passive-aggressive maneuverings of suspicion, all the while avoiding doing anything that might bring you too much attention? Yeah, I'd bet my bottom dollar on you being mafia.
As for your plan it's bad. It assumes the numbers advantage will overcome the targeting advantage scum gain. My last scum game in a powered game like this was pirates mafia. And team was dying to claim 2 of our roles because they were verifiable and looked townie. The third one could pass. We would have loved having the information early and been better able to organize night actions. We won largely because our roles made us valuable post mass claim and looked townie. It also let us figure out who was safe to kill based on the protective reads (though we failed 1 guess badly) and knew one person wasn't going to be tracked so they could safely kill.
It's an extreme example but the mass claim cinched that game for us. And wouldn't have hurt us if it happened D1 iirc.
@highroller: Firstly, I don't really know where you got the idea I'd be ok with mass-claiming day 2. I'm ok with a massclaim at the earliest on day 3 if we haven't caught any scum. Otherwise I'd prefer it being pushed as far as possible.
But talking generally, about other games, not this one, a mass claim day 2 forces scum to also claim actions and might catch them in a contradiction with a much higher chance than simply botching a claim. I also don't believe that scum could be so clueless and not to claim something at least passable on day 1.
So please stop with this useless idea that there might be third parties in this game as it's mod confirmed they aren't. Also the prevailing meta on MTGS is that scum have daytalk so they don't have to wait until night to co-ordinate.
I understand that I wasn't extremely clear on what I meant here, but you've parsed about 25% of my words and just decided to roll with it.
Secondly, I take offence that you are accusing me of hounding rezombified. I have asked him one question for the purposes of ascertaining his alignment, which he refused to answer. I don't really find that scummy. In fact if you would've read my post you'd know I'm undecided about rezombied and even called his behaviour townie.
Now I don't really know what's your problem, but I am not going to respond to baseless accusations that I've already talked about in other posts.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
I'll just leave this here.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
And we're supposed to pretend like we won't get a targeting advantage. Because that's how this works.
Now in this, I am in the wrong, and I sincerely apologize. I confused a post of Grapefruit's with a post of yours.
So my apologies. This further reinforces my vote of Grapefruit.
This is ridiculous. The mafia have less information to work with on a day with no one dead than one a day with two people dead, and far less than on a day with four people dead. That's basic common sense. We hit the mafia on the absolute worst time today. Saying this day is worse than Day 2 or Day 3 is baseless.
All I know is that I have the ability to create neutral roles. I will rule nothing out with regards to other neutral roles existing.
If you're going to demand an answer to a completely pointless question, then don't get offended when someone points out that you're making demands. If the boot fits...
What you haven't done is give any basis for why a mass claim would harm the town more than the mafia. Still waiting on that, btw.
Sure. Why are you ignoring the fact that Highroller is probably a Neutral once a certain death threshold per each/any alignment is reached? Because that's exactly what I read his most recent role spew as.
Just...in what universe does that exist on a townie?
-
@Highroller: I wouldn't worry about that, just yet (RE: Grapefruit). I always think he's scum when I read his posts, too. Fortunately, I haven't retained any of the information I've read in any of his posts, so that hasn't yet colored my read of him.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player