*probably a Neutral that wins once a certain death threshold blah blah.
From sign-ups:
The game has medium to high flavour and contains (as far as the host is aware) several unique mechanics. There are nine town and three mafia in this setup.
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Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
@Highroller: Do you have any non-mechanical opinions about this game? Any stances about other players? Who is mafia and who is town in your opinion?
While I enjoy talks about mechanics and mafia strategies, I'd prefer to have those discussions somewhere else than in mafia game D1 (= post-game/OoG).
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Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
@Iso and highroller: It is confirmed by the mod that there are only 3 scum and 9 town. If you want to believe something else, you can do that, but I'm just going to ignore those parts of your posts, because they are about as useful as spam.
Also highroller: And you won't get the reason why I think a massclaim on day 1 is bad until I'm dead or the game ends.
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Okay. So you decided to cut out the part about me saying how scum gain targetting information and ignore my example of how it outweighed the numbers advantage. I really want to town read you here because your random lynching order suggestion and walk back read so pure but this proposal is just nuts.
@Vez you were with me in pirates, would you say the claim played to our advantage?
Okay. So you decided to cut out the part about me saying how scum gain targetting information and ignore my example of how it outweighed the numbers advantage. I really want to town read you here because your random lynching order suggestion and walk back read so pure but this proposal is just nuts.
@Vez you were with me in pirates, would you say the claim played to our advantage?
More votes on Terry please.
A day 1 mass claim in pirates would have helped the town immensly due to there being no alignment flip. It would make it much easier to realise who is town and who is scum when you can at least compare the claims to the flips.
While after the massclaim we were forced to use our actions in not an optimal way, although it didn't hurt that much.
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Also I'm also townreading highroller for his convinction and way of thinking. I find it highly unlikely he is a scum doing theatre and bringing so much attention to himself.
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Okay. So you decided to cut out the part about me saying how scum gain targetting information and ignore my example of how it outweighed the numbers advantage. I really want to town read you here because your random lynching order suggestion and walk back read so pure but this proposal is just nuts.
@Vez you were with me in pirates, would you say the claim played to our advantage?
More votes on Terry please.
I miss you too Grape. You don’t need to get all pushy. You’re in luck because I’m town and I’ll be catching up today.
@Highroller I'd say Vez's 70 wasn't contradictory. He thinks it's a bad idea for this specific setup, but if an individual thinks it would do more benefit than harm for their role to be in the open, he wouldn't think negatively of them for claiming.
Do you have reads at this point that are not based on massclaiming, besides GF?oh Bur beat me to this I'll echo some sentiments that giving the investigative roles a Night of not being potentially impeded has substantial upside.
Why are we trying to vote Terry, again? He hasn't really done much.
Okay, last post before I head out for the weekend.
Highroller is fun and interesting. His insistence on a massclaim is unusual. What's problematic is his misreading of things, and I'm trying to figure out if it's intentional. For example, his answer to me is "scum can already kill us". Well, duh. They might be able to kill us faster. There's a huge difference between scum having 1 kill per night and 2 kills per night, which is obviously the scenario I was describing.
There are two ways to read this: town Highroller is overeager and oversure of themselves, or scum Highroller is looking for excuses to attack people.
Vezok: A Day 1 massclaim would have been terrible for the town in Pirates. Our only real chance against the no-flips was our Census taker, and the scum just got lucky that the Census taker fired so early. The scum had a day vanillizer that would have shut down all of our roles and turned it into a lock scum game (even moreso than it already was).
Cantrip's #105 would probably be completely innocuous except I just finished being scum with him, and that looks exactly like his early posts there. This is a hunch, but I'll go with it.
@Highroller: Not to get totally side-tracked on a point of game theory, but the whole D1 mass-claiming strategy is hardly as open and shut as you are suggesting. There are any number of ways that it could backfire badly in the town's faces, depending on the set-up. Which we don't know. Could it work out great? Sure. But again, we don't know. And we pretty much can't ever know in advance.
Like, and this is just a teeny tiny example, but I was thinking about it. What I do not care for about your claim is that, as it appears, your role does nothing in and of itself. You have claimed a role that is, at best, a role that facilitates someone else's role. By filling up our "graveyard" with corpses which these other roles may then presumably use for...something. Aside from the fact that this seems suspect to me purely from a game design standpoint, what it also means is that if the scum eliminate the role that uses these corpses, you are a waste of space (as far as role ability goes, not as a human being, of course). They also nerf the role that uses corpses by killing you, so like a 2-for-1 for them (although your claim seems to mitigate this at least a little in that you still put bodies there even as you die). This also ignores the possibility that is the the Mafia who get a benefit out of these corpses (and if you think that's crazy since "you're town" and it makes no sense for Town to have a role that helps the Mafia, you are not thinking creatively enough).
A few questions: are you deciding what Gobin goes to that graveyard? Your initial claim seemed to suggest that you got to pick, but are you also deciding if the corpse is labeled as "Town" "Mafia" or "Neutral?" That doesn't seems to make any sense, but is the Mod. then doing it after you tell the mod. what Goblin you are recruiting? On what basis? Randomly? That would seem very strange to me as well.
At this moment, I think you are at the very least being misleading about this claim and/or leaving something out. Which you might have a reason to do as a Town, but is not making me inclined to trust you very much.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I also...mostly don't feel like scum picks "hey guys massclaim on D1 is best strategy" as the hill to die on. If you're scum, I hand it to you as a very original approach, and part of me wants to try it, but then another part of me feels like it has a lot of potential to backfire
I wanted to see if Cantrip is going to post, but I'll share my reads now. I'm 60% rezombied is town who's making bad arguments and tunneling and cantrip just jumped on the opportunity.
Cantrips play so far has been extrenely shallow and non-commital while at the same time being full of nothing. I really didn't like his point about hin veing scum in team mafia 2 as it had no relevance to the theoritical aspect we were talking about. Cantrip has been scum for the last 5 games in a row he played here. Talk about unlucky.
vote cantrip
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After Phantom Tollbooth you're going to tell me that being defensive is a scummy trait for Vez? What exactly are you pointing to as defensiveness here?
I pretty strongly disagree with that assessment. Especially early. Strongly believe defensiveness is NAI for Vez. As for your definition I don't think it fits what Vez has done. 34 I'd agree is defensive but it's much more vociferous about his idea being valid/good play than really arguing that he's obviously town for it. 28 is a bit more about the alignment but most of it's centered on him defending his idea. There really isn't much indication there that he cares about how people are reading him.
I see you interacting a bit with KA
I see you being skeeved out by Kami's vote. (and also Bur's vote)
I see you saying you feel weirdly pinged by Vezok
I see you saying that the post of Vezok's that I called out initially was "commenting for commentings sake"
I see you telling Bur that me pushing Vezok for the reasons I did "is a weird look."
I don't see a reason for you voting TheRealStinkyJoeTerry.
I don't see this 'obviousness' that you claim.
Sure. Why are you ignoring the fact that Highroller is probably a Neutral once a certain death threshold per each/any alignment is reached? Because that's exactly what I read his most recent role spew as.
... How the hell did you get that?
The correct answer is no, that's not how my role works, nor did I claim anything close to that. I throw goblins into graveyards. When I die, two goblin cards of my choice will go into the graveyard, and they can be either town, mafia, or neutral, my choice.
@Highroller: I wouldn't worry about that
I feel like I should though.
Also, if it's your last game, why are you lurking?
Also highroller: And you won't get the reason why I think a massclaim on day 1 is bad until I'm dead or the game ends.
Then don't give us any crap about how you've already addressed anything. You haven't. And your cagey attitude is precisely why it's in our best interest to claim.
Unless we're all fine with pretending that an environment in which everyone just flies under the radar without scrutiny ISN'T the best possible scenario for the town. Seriously, it's like watching a group of people try to argue that the best way to keep mold and vermin out of an apartment is to go ahead and make it warm, moist, dark, and throw garbage around.
@Highroller: How many games have you played (or read) where a D1 mass claim occurred, and how many of them proved advantageous to town?
I don't remember how many of them actually happened, as almost all of the games I've played (save for, like, two) were on the MTGNews Forum, which no longer exists. However, I cannot recall a single game in which a mass claim was detrimental to the town. In many times, it allowed the town to easily spot a mafia, particularly when the mafia slipped up during a claim.
Highroller is fun and interesting. His insistence on a massclaim is unusual. What's problematic is his misreading of things, and I'm trying to figure out if it's intentional. For example, his answer to me is "scum can already kill us". Well, duh. They might be able to kill us faster.
I highly doubt that for the same reason I doubt the existence of a serial killer, it would be completely imbalanced. In a 24-person game, maybe, but it's 12 people. We have a three-days-to-not-die time limit normally.
@Highroller I'd say Vez's 70 wasn't contradictory. He thinks it's a bad idea for this specific setup, but if an individual thinks it would do more benefit than harm for their role to be in the open, he wouldn't think negatively of them for claiming.
You can't be totally against claiming unless someone claims in which case that's cool, I don't have any problems. That's contradictory.
Do you have reads at this point that are not based on massclaiming, besides GF? - I'm getting bad vibes from Iso.
@Highroller: Not to get totally side-tracked on a point of game theory, but the whole D1 mass-claiming strategy is hardly as open and shut as you are suggesting. There are any number of ways that it could backfire badly in the town's faces, depending on the set-up. Which we don't know. Could it work out great? Sure. But again, we don't know. And we pretty much can't ever know in advance.
Dude, let's be real here: You're a mafia, the town agrees to mass claim, you're up to claim, what's your reaction to this situation?
Because I would be... I'll say defecating, bricks. I'm put on the spot, I don't know what to do, a wrongfully thought out claim equals a big neon sign that I'm mafia.
Like, and this is just a teeny tiny example, but I was thinking about it. What I do not care for about your claim is that, as it appears, your role does nothing in and of itself. You have claimed a role that is, at best, a role that facilitates someone else's role. By filling up our "graveyard" with corpses which these other roles may then presumably use for...something. Aside from the fact that this seems suspect to me purely from a game design standpoint, what it also means is that if the scum eliminate the role that uses these corpses, you are a waste of space (as far as role ability goes, not as a human being, of course). They also nerf the role that uses corpses by killing you, so like a 2-for-1 for them (although your claim seems to mitigate this at least a little in that you still put bodies there even as you die). This also ignores the possibility that is the the Mafia who get a benefit out of these corpses (and if you think that's crazy since "you're town" and it makes no sense for Town to have a role that helps the Mafia, you are not thinking creatively enough).
I mean, I don't disagree with any particular point here. I will add that I wasn't the one who came up with the role.
A few questions: are you deciding what Gobin goes to that graveyard?
Only when I die. Otherwise it's Mon's Goblin Raiders, and always town-aligned.
Your initial claim seemed to suggest that you got to pick, but are you also deciding if the corpse is labeled as "Town" "Mafia" or "Neutral?" That doesn't seems to make any sense, but is the Mod. then doing it after you tell the mod. what Goblin you are recruiting? On what basis? Randomly? That would seem very strange to me as well.
Every day before dawn, I send a Mon's Goblin Raiders, Town-aligned, into the graveyard. You'll see one such example in the graveyard right now.
When I die, I send two goblins into the graveyard of any name (they'll be Goblin Gardeners, because I think the flavor text is funny) and any alignment (town, mafia, or neutral) to the graveyard with me.
At this moment, I think you are at the very least being misleading about this claim and/or leaving something out. Which you might have a reason to do as a Town, but is not making me inclined to trust you very much.
Ok. I encourage everyone to go back and read page 1. In my current state, I’ve seen it very clearly. Vezo was right to put rezom in check. Rezom was way off and was really pushing vezo for some skewed stuff. Then kami votes vezo for being too defensive. I voted kami as just a knee jerk reaction but going back on it, I like it even more. I’m think kami and rezom are buddies.
@Rez: Why was Vez obligated to add something of substance on the issue that he was actively ignoring. Sorry for that being unclear.
This still doesnt make sense.
Ok. Let's say you're talking about mono-W being insane in modern. I don't think that makes any sense. Why am I obligated to talk about that instead of, say, why Jund could be a top tier deck again now that Assassin's Trophy can consolidate SB slots?
Also, what's the logic behind the Cantrip read? If you'd like, you can keep it to the quote you posted.
Lastly, what do you think about GF being "one for two" on the justification for his two reads, after your analysis? How do you think the relative inactivity from Terry factors in here?
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@Highroller re: Vez, I think being against a massclaim isn't the same mental space as being against an individual claiming. Also, it's probably not "that's cool," but closer to "this isn't an anti-town action." Context is important here.
I'll be limited access this weekend. Should be able to post daily, still.
Ok. Page 2 is done. I know what Grape is doing. He’s town and I’m really happy about it. He’s wanting me to get invested because I’m so awesome. Scum Grape doesn’t want that.
I also really like how vezo is playing this game. It doesn’t feel like scum vezo.
I don’t like how high roller is coming across. Seems controlling and a bit hand flashy. Like waving his hands around saying look at me, I’m doing stuff! But I’m not feeling the sincerity.
Is it just Rezom, kami and high roller. Ok spectators and archivalists of greatness. There you have it.
@Cantrip: I'm channeling my inner kpaca moreso than my inner Seppel.
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@Highroller: As far as I'm concerned, that makes no sense whatsoever. Also, wouldn't lurking require I not post? I'm pretty sure I'm staying within required activity levels.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
"No, that's a horrible idea! It would hurt the town and help the mafia!"
Me: Ok, so what's your Day 3 plan?
"Mass claiming."
Me: Wait, what? Why would you want to mass claim Day 3 then?
"Because it would provide us the information we need to lynch the mafia and not lose the game."
Me: ... So, why wouldn't we do that Day 1 then?
"No! That's a terrible idea!"
Freaking seriously...
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry: Boy, that's a bang-up job you did there with that analysis, Terry. My only notes are to next time take longer to write it and to put less effort in.
"No, that's a horrible idea! It would hurt the town and help the mafia!"
Me: Ok, so what's your Day 3 plan?
"Mass claiming."
Me: Wait, what? Why would you want to mass claim Day 3 then?
"Because it would provide us the information we need to lynch the mafia and not lose the game."
Me: ... So, why wouldn't we do that Day 1 then?
"No! That's a terrible idea!"
Freaking seriously...
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry: Boy, that's a bang-up job you did there with that analysis, Terry. My only notes are to next time take longer to write it and to put less effort in.
Iso: Which part makes no sense?
Firstly, if I see you talking about a third party again I will seriously ignore anything you post, because I expect people to read the thread and if you can't even read the text the mod posted, I don't really feel like you'll read the posts from other players.
And secondly, I'm not really sure why you are so against a day 3 mass claim. It is completely different from a day 1 mass claim with it's pros and cons.
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@Terry I'm not doing anything to try and motivate you. Though you are awesome. I think your vote was forced feeling and the mimicking of the joke you were supposedly finding over the top is a discrediting sort of thing I could see scum you doing.
@Rezom the vote makes it obvious I'm scum reading him. That's kind of half the point of voting.
Did anyone do what I asked? Read page 1 again and look at that exchange. Then look at the interactions between kami vezo rezom and high roller. It’s three flipping pages. I don’t need to do an pbp analysis.
Firstly, if I see you talking about a third party again I will seriously ignore anything you post
Well if you're going to provide an incentive...
And secondly, I'm not really sure why you are so against a day 3 mass claim. It is completely different from a day 1 mass claim with it's pros and cons.
The differences are that the mafia have two more days to coordinate and talk, there are 4 more dead roles for them to scrutinize when making false claims, and four less people who could catch them in a counterclaim. That's it.
I think you're neglecting two major issues with mass claiming. One, scum should've had false claims figured out basically immediately in a role madness setup, if they weren't even provided for them preemptively.
Two, scum can take substantial advantage of having a road map of who to kill/block as the result of a mass claim.
Ultimately, the two of you are just yelling theory back and forth at each other, as opposed to, ya know, scum hunting. And while it was interesting to read for a while, it's heading towards being unproductive.
I think you're neglecting two major issues with mass claiming. One, scum should've had false claims figured out basically immediately in a role madness setup, if they weren't even provided for them preemptively.
That makes zero sense. The mafia couldn't have false claims figured out alright, because they don't know what's actually in the game.
Like, the mafia would have to be insanely ballsy to claim a doctor or inspector day 1 in a game with only 12, so to be safe, they'd have to claim obscure roles. But how obscure? And what, specifically, would they claim? And what if they are forced to claim something, and there's someone with an ability like that in the game? I have more than one ability. This amplifies the difficulty of plausible roleclaims tremendously.
There's also the thematic component to this game. Is there a common theme which would link all the mafia roles, or not? What about color and type?
You have to think about this from a design aspect. When Wuffles created this game, how did he create it? Because you could go any number of ways. You could just put your favorite/iconic banned cards in. OR you could plan it out so there's some sort of rhyme or reason with regards to representation. Example: in a 12 person game, which is of course divisible by six, you could put 2 cards of each color of mana. Did Wuffles do this?
What about with card type? Is there a rhyme or reason to how many creatures, artifacts, spells, and lands we have?
What about which banlist he chose from? Is there a rhyme or reason to that, or is it just from whatever?
We have variables to consider here. You're acting like the mafia must know all of this information already. How? Did Wuffles give them a checklist of every single role and ability in the game with their role PMs? How would they know all of this already?
Two, scum can take substantial advantage of having a road map of who to kill/block as the result of a mass claim.
As I said before, the worst case scenario seems to be they'd know exactly who's the doctor and who's the inspector and will kill accordingly. In addition to the fact that we could very well lose the inspector during day 1 or day 2 anyway via nightkill, this still leaves us with one confirmed town or mafia tomorrow via the inspector, and the resultant information from the mass claim will greatly augment our ability to find mafia.
Again, the mafia benefit from the town's confusion, and from an environment where they can skate under the radar. This forces them out into the open and make claims on the fly, which is the worst case scenario for the mafia.
Ultimately, the two of you are just yelling theory back and forth at each other
I'm yelling at the entire town. You have a gold mine underneath you, and all I'm hearing is people talking about how maybe they'll continue sitting on it.
You're throwing so many variables into play that don't need to belong. The mafia have knowledge of a group of roles. They can mold their fake claims around that collective knowledge and adjust their existing roles, if necessary. Given that this is role madness, they don't need to care what other, similar roles exist. "Role madness" is an automatic out to the counterclaim.
Go read Phantom Tollbooth for a perfect example of similarly roled town members getting into a CC slap fight, and another, similar scum role, ultimately got caught out of the blue and made that entire line of conversation look silly.
Also, I think it's a touch nieve to assume that there are going to be a lot of stock roles in this setup, given what we've already seen (types, colors, graveyards). The range of claims, I expect, will be quite wide, and as a result, trying to catch mafia in a fake claim will be even more difficult than you seem to be assuming.
Not to mention information gained by the town as time moves on will increase much more rapidly, given 9 roles against 3, which would make it much easier to actually catch slipping scum with later claims. Confirmable actions.
Not to say I think one strategy is better than the other, I just see merits to both. Alas, now I am one of the ones yelling about theory. Pot, meet kettle.
You're throwing so many variables into play that don't need to belong. The mafia have knowledge of a group of roles. They can mold their fake claims around that collective knowledge and adjust their existing roles, if necessary. Given that this is role madness, they don't need to care what other, similar roles exist. "Role madness" is an automatic out to the counterclaim.
No, it's not. Have you constructed games of this type? I have. These are some of the first questions you answer when you plan them.
This is a 12 person game. There are only so many roles that can exist, and we don't know whether the mafia all have a common theme to their roles, or if how much they know about this, or how the game is constructed thematically. All of these are factors in claiming.
Also, I think it's a touch nieve to assume that there are going to be a lot of stock roles in this setup, given what we've already seen (types, colors, graveyards). The range of claims, I expect, will be quite wide, and as a result, trying to catch mafia in a fake claim will be even more difficult than you seem to be assuming.
That collapses under any amount of thought. The easiest game for the mafia to fake claim is one with vanilla towns. Every dimension you add becomes that much harder. This has numerous dimensions: card name, card type, color, ability, flavor, and potentially different ban lists. The mafia not only must keep track of all of these, they need to figure out what pattern the mod set up.
Once again, one of the most rudimentary questions a game mod must think of when creating a Magic-themed mafia game is whether or not there's going to balance with regards to color or not. I set up a game in which there were an equal number of players represented among all colors. Is that the case here? Or is it just grab bag? If so, did Wuggles choose the cards based on who'd fit the roles he'd laid out already? Did he take cards that were iconic banned cards like Black Lotus and make roles around that? Or is it a bit of both? These are the most elementary questions a game designer must answer.
You're saying the mafia definitely has the answer to all of these questions. I don't see how that's possible. They have three data points. You're presuming that from this they know all they need to know about all 12 roles to produce plausible claims that cannot be seen through without any possibility of them slipping up. Again, not seeing how that's possible.
Not to mention information gained by the town as time moves on will increase much more rapidly, given 9 roles against 3, which would make it much easier to actually catch slipping scum with later claims. Confirmable actions.
Once again, we have people advocating a Day 3 claim. If you're advocating a Day 3 game, or even a Day 2 claim, then there's zero reason we wouldn't benefit far more from a Day 1 claim. If you're against any mass claim at all, then I completely disagree, but it's at least consistent. But the idea of stalling a claim benefits no one but the mafia. The people who have the most to lose are the mafia, who immediately lose all advantages and are forced to react on the spot with very limited information. If I were mafia, I would be opposing a Day 1 claim adamantly.
Not to say I think one strategy is better than the other, I just see merits to both.
What do you mean, "Not to say I think one strategy is better than the other"? How can you not think one strategy is better than the other? You have to have an opinion on that.
Whoo, nobody is scumhunting but we are discussing theory.
It's been proven time and time again that mods on MTGS give roles to the scum that don't even need a fakeclaim. We had scum vigs in multiple games, KA was a scum gladiator.
How would you identify the scum if they claim their exact role, but instead of alignment they say they are town?
Anyway this conversation is pretty useless, because simply put we aren't mass-claiming today so let's get to scumhunting or random voting r whatever you want, but post more.
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A deadline is now in effect. The deadline is 30 October at 9:30pm (Auckland GMT+12) approximately.
Because life can happen, I reserve the right to extend this deadline. Twilight will probably last around an hour from the time I call it, but I can be busy during the week, so allow 12-24 hours if needed.
I don't like that so many people feel like they're lurking. I got a new computer at work and I'm still setting things up, but once I get the monitor splitter cable I need, I can probably do that re-read I hinted at, earlier.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Sure. Why are you ignoring the fact that Highroller is probably a Neutral once a certain death threshold per each/any alignment is reached? Because that's exactly what I read his most recent role spew as.
Totally believeable, but the ability I claimed isn't?
Although I will agree with the part about so many lurking. According to the post counter, we have 135 total posts, in which Bur has 9 posts; Axelrod, rezombied, and MOOS12 all have 6 posts; and Cantrip has 4 posts. Everyone else has 10 or more.
Sure. Why are you ignoring the fact that Highroller is probably a Neutral once a certain death threshold per each/any alignment is reached? Because that's exactly what I read his most recent role spew as.
Totally believeable, but the ability I claimed isn't?
With no Neutrals in the game, I can't even possibly begin to imagine what your role is if what you're claiming is accurate. Ergo, Occam's Razor suggests to me that what you're claiming isn't accurate, at least to some degree.
I understand that you're probably going to get frustrated by this line of discourse, but we're in a situation where you're not able to make me make sense of what you're saying without a fullclaim, and I don't want you to fullclaim unless you're at L-2. I don't know how much you recall from back in the day, nor if you're familiar with our current norms, so I wanted to stress to you that reacting emotionally in this situation isn't likely conducive for the gamestate.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Highroller: You are not going to get any traction on a D1 mass claim, so probably ought to just drop it (and reserve the right to told-you-sos at the end). I'm not saying it's "wrong", I'm saying we can't ever know ahead of time if it would have broke the game or not. And maybe breaking the game D1 wouldn't be the most fun way to proceed anyway. Like I said, it sort of turns it into a whole different kind of game.
And don't expect a whole lot of activity from me early on either. I tend to post a lot less when there isn't much to work with. D1 is 90% just guessing. I'll have my most educated guess from what has happened so far in a bit, I suppose.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
This is a 12 person game. There are only so many roles that can exist, and we don't know whether the mafia all have a common theme to their roles, or if how much they know about this, or how the game is constructed thematically. All of these are factors in claiming.
Disagree. There is effectively infinite roles that can exist, and they are strictly dictated by the creativity of a mod in a given game. The fact that there are so many layers to the individual roles (I'm digging off my own a bit in this assessment, but I think it's a fair one given the public information so far). And a 12 man, which while I haven't created in a role madness setting itself (although I have helped review double digits of them), has fewer people to CC than the 16+ setups that I do have experience creating, so I think it's reasonable to expect that it would be more difficult to catch/predict a fake claim in that context.
That collapses under any amount of thought. The easiest game for the mafia to fake claim is one with vanilla towns. Every dimension you add becomes that much harder. This has numerous dimensions: card name, card type, color, ability, flavor, and potentially different ban lists. The mafia not only must keep track of all of these, they need to figure out what pattern the mod set up.
Once again, one of the most rudimentary questions a game mod must think of when creating a Magic-themed mafia game is whether or not there's going to balance with regards to color or not. I set up a game in which there were an equal number of players represented among all colors. Is that the case here? Or is it just grab bag? If so, did Wuggles choose the cards based on who'd fit the roles he'd laid out already? Did he take cards that were iconic banned cards like Black Lotus and make roles around that? Or is it a bit of both? These are the most elementary questions a game designer must answer.
You're saying the mafia definitely has the answer to all of these questions. I don't see how that's possible. They have three data points. You're presuming that from this they know all they need to know about all 12 roles to produce plausible claims that cannot be seen through without any possibility of them slipping up. Again, not seeing how that's possible.
Again, disagree, even stronger here. Vanilla town is the worst role for mafia to claim. They eliminate any attempt at a CC to gain info from the town, and should never reasonably stop a wagon's momentum on its own. Why would the mafia need to determine a pattern? You say only three data points, and I say that's three times as many data points as anyone else, not to mention whoever claims ahead of them. I think you're far overanalyzing this, and the number of variables you're pointing to actually bolster my previously given argument, in that it'd be SO difficult to catch a fake claim based on the effectively infinite range of potential roles.
Once again, we have people advocating a Day 3 claim. If you're advocating a Day 3 game, or even a Day 2 claim, then there's zero reason we wouldn't benefit far more from a Day 1 claim. If you're against any mass claim at all, then I completely disagree, but it's at least consistent. But the idea of stalling a claim benefits no one but the mafia. The people who have the most to lose are the mafia, who immediately lose all advantages and are forced to react on the spot with very limited information. If I were mafia, I would be opposing a Day 1 claim adamantly.
No argument here, I agree. This logic doesn't really stand up in my eyes, as far as a specific Day to claim. Either claim immediately, claim after you have a focal mechanical point (cop check) to build your gameplan around, or claim in Ly/MyLo.
What do you mean, "Not to say I think one strategy is better than the other"? How can you not think one strategy is better than the other? You have to have an opinion on that.
I wasn't attempting to give an opinion on the matter, but strictly discuss the merits of the theory behind it. Assuming this means you do want my opinion, however, I think if the setup were less complex, I'd be willing to massclaim and coordinate actions here. Generally speaking, I am pro-public information from townsfolk. I think given the context of this setup, I don't support a claim until we have something to build off of, but once we get to that point I'm for it.
On this note, I would like to stop engaging on the subject and discuss other, more meaningful things. It does feel like a lot of people are lurking, and this is providing a huge distraction to allow the scum to join that number.
There are three people with the same amount of posts as the mod and one person with even less than that. That's pretty depressing.
Agreed. The problem with reviewing this day is that for a substantial portion of people, there's not going to be much to review, especially with a lot of people making nothing posts or posts just containing a promise of a future post.
Should we start considering replacements, Wuffles?
Exiled (1) Black Lotus, The Most Valuable Banned Card, Neutral Victim - murdered during signups
Yeah, yeah, I know, it's the plot death that gets the ball rolling, but that first person dead is generally town. Also, I can create neutral roles. The fact of the matter is that neutrals didn't need to exist at all. So I don't think it's unreasonable to consider the possibility that Wuffles included another.
I understand that you're probably going to get frustrated by this line of discourse, but we're in a situation where you're not able to make me make sense of what you're saying without a fullclaim, and I don't want you to fullclaim unless you're at L-2. I don't know how much you recall from back in the day, nor if you're familiar with our current norms, so I wanted to stress to you that reacting emotionally in this situation isn't likely conducive for the gamestate.
Dude, you're the one coming out with this idea that I'm claiming some sort of threshold thingie role and then acting bewildered that I'm claiming what I claimed as opposed to something bizarre that you came up with from left field. Not sure how I'm the irrational one but okay.
ganderin_dan: I agree, we shouldn't discuss a mass claim anymore because it's clear the town won't do it, therefore we should refrain from discussing it further. (But seriously, everything you said was wrong.)
Yeah, yeah, I know, it's the plot death that gets the ball rolling, but that first person dead is generally town. Also, I can create neutral roles. The fact of the matter is that neutrals didn't need to exist at all. So I don't think it's unreasonable to consider the possibility that Wuffles included another.
This is the first and last time I am going to spell this out.
THERE ARE NO NEUTRAL *PLAYER* roles in this setup, as was established in the first post. And the signups. And by multiple players quoting the words from the first post. And the signups.
There are 9 roles that are town aligned. Three roles that are mafia aligned. There are no roles that are not aligned with either the town or the mafia.
I'm back. I've reviewed. We're still talking about a massclaim? Seriously? And the justification now is catching mafia in fakeclaims? I just played a scum game and the mod literally designed and gave us safe fakeclaims, including both mechanics and flavor.
I started out not caring much and now I'm definitely against a massclaim simply because Highroller's arguments have been so flawed.
Vezok: Your view on cantrip is extremely similar to mine. Why no commentary on that? Especially given that I successfully "mindmelded" you in Phantom Tollbooth as scum?
Alright. I threw out my idea from earlier. Mechanics talk is too easy to fake and I shouldn't town read people over it.
Looking back through the thread the things I like most are Bur's naked vote on Rezombie, Vez's indignation at most things, and highrollers absolute self confidence.
Things that are pinging me hardest Rezombies hard push on Vez for oversharing but zero interest in pushing highroller, KAs interest in vezs defensiveness and no interest in Zom's aggression, Terry's shade laden vote, and highrollers absolute self confidence.
Vote: Rezombie
I just don't get his focus this game. Going from "I don't like Vez ignoring Grapes advice and need to hear more from highroller" to "I don't care why people are voting me" and not really following up on highroller and jumping on me with a bandwagony gotcha feels blatantly scummy to me.
Yeah, yeah, I know, it's the plot death that gets the ball rolling, but that first person dead is generally town. Also, I can create neutral roles. The fact of the matter is that neutrals didn't need to exist at all. So I don't think it's unreasonable to consider the possibility that Wuffles included another.
This is the first and last time I am going to spell this out.
THERE ARE NO NEUTRAL *PLAYER* roles in this setup, as was established in the first post. And the signups. And by multiple players quoting the words from the first post. And the signups.
There are 9 roles that are town aligned. Three roles that are mafia aligned. There are no roles that are not aligned with either the town or the mafia.
Have you actually read SJT/highroller interactions? Do you think Iso is right and that those two are mafia together?
From sign-ups:
@Highroller: Do you have any non-mechanical opinions about this game? Any stances about other players? Who is mafia and who is town in your opinion?
While I enjoy talks about mechanics and mafia strategies, I'd prefer to have those discussions somewhere else than in mafia game D1 (= post-game/OoG).
Also highroller: And you won't get the reason why I think a massclaim on day 1 is bad until I'm dead or the game ends.
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@Vez you were with me in pirates, would you say the claim played to our advantage?
More votes on Terry please.
@Iso: You don't really have to channel Seppel this game. Give me something to work with here.
@Grapefruit: Why are you voting Terry, again/why should I vote him?
A day 1 mass claim in pirates would have helped the town immensly due to there being no alignment flip. It would make it much easier to realise who is town and who is scum when you can at least compare the claims to the flips.
While after the massclaim we were forced to use our actions in not an optimal way, although it didn't hurt that much.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
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Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
@Highroller I'd say Vez's 70 wasn't contradictory. He thinks it's a bad idea for this specific setup, but if an individual thinks it would do more benefit than harm for their role to be in the open, he wouldn't think negatively of them for claiming.
Do you have reads at this point that are not based on massclaiming, besides GF?oh Bur beat me to this I'll echo some sentiments that giving the investigative roles a Night of not being potentially impeded has substantial upside.Why are we trying to vote Terry, again? He hasn't really done much.
Highroller is fun and interesting. His insistence on a massclaim is unusual. What's problematic is his misreading of things, and I'm trying to figure out if it's intentional. For example, his answer to me is "scum can already kill us". Well, duh. They might be able to kill us faster. There's a huge difference between scum having 1 kill per night and 2 kills per night, which is obviously the scenario I was describing.
There are two ways to read this: town Highroller is overeager and oversure of themselves, or scum Highroller is looking for excuses to attack people.
Vezok: A Day 1 massclaim would have been terrible for the town in Pirates. Our only real chance against the no-flips was our Census taker, and the scum just got lucky that the Census taker fired so early. The scum had a day vanillizer that would have shut down all of our roles and turned it into a lock scum game (even moreso than it already was).
Cantrip's #105 would probably be completely innocuous except I just finished being scum with him, and that looks exactly like his early posts there. This is a hunch, but I'll go with it.
unvote
vote Cantrip
Like, and this is just a teeny tiny example, but I was thinking about it. What I do not care for about your claim is that, as it appears, your role does nothing in and of itself. You have claimed a role that is, at best, a role that facilitates someone else's role. By filling up our "graveyard" with corpses which these other roles may then presumably use for...something. Aside from the fact that this seems suspect to me purely from a game design standpoint, what it also means is that if the scum eliminate the role that uses these corpses, you are a waste of space (as far as role ability goes, not as a human being, of course). They also nerf the role that uses corpses by killing you, so like a 2-for-1 for them (although your claim seems to mitigate this at least a little in that you still put bodies there even as you die). This also ignores the possibility that is the the Mafia who get a benefit out of these corpses (and if you think that's crazy since "you're town" and it makes no sense for Town to have a role that helps the Mafia, you are not thinking creatively enough).
A few questions: are you deciding what Gobin goes to that graveyard? Your initial claim seemed to suggest that you got to pick, but are you also deciding if the corpse is labeled as "Town" "Mafia" or "Neutral?" That doesn't seems to make any sense, but is the Mod. then doing it after you tell the mod. what Goblin you are recruiting? On what basis? Randomly? That would seem very strange to me as well.
At this moment, I think you are at the very least being misleading about this claim and/or leaving something out. Which you might have a reason to do as a Town, but is not making me inclined to trust you very much.
Beyond the contradiction?
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I don't see a reason to care.
I never said it was valuable, but it is information.
this pings.
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This still doesnt make sense.
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That's two
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this reads as disingenuous.
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Cantrips play so far has been extrenely shallow and non-commital while at the same time being full of nothing. I really didn't like his point about hin veing scum in team mafia 2 as it had no relevance to the theoritical aspect we were talking about. Cantrip has been scum for the last 5 games in a row he played here. Talk about unlucky.
vote cantrip
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Interactions with KamikazeArchon
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Interactions with TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
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I see you interacting a bit with KA
I see you being skeeved out by Kami's vote. (and also Bur's vote)
I see you saying you feel weirdly pinged by Vezok
I see you saying that the post of Vezok's that I called out initially was "commenting for commentings sake"
I see you telling Bur that me pushing Vezok for the reasons I did "is a weird look."
I don't see a reason for you voting TheRealStinkyJoeTerry.
I don't see this 'obviousness' that you claim.
The correct answer is no, that's not how my role works, nor did I claim anything close to that. I throw goblins into graveyards. When I die, two goblin cards of my choice will go into the graveyard, and they can be either town, mafia, or neutral, my choice.
I feel like I should though.
Also, if it's your last game, why are you lurking?
Then don't give us any crap about how you've already addressed anything. You haven't. And your cagey attitude is precisely why it's in our best interest to claim.
Unless we're all fine with pretending that an environment in which everyone just flies under the radar without scrutiny ISN'T the best possible scenario for the town. Seriously, it's like watching a group of people try to argue that the best way to keep mold and vermin out of an apartment is to go ahead and make it warm, moist, dark, and throw garbage around.
I don't remember how many of them actually happened, as almost all of the games I've played (save for, like, two) were on the MTGNews Forum, which no longer exists. However, I cannot recall a single game in which a mass claim was detrimental to the town. In many times, it allowed the town to easily spot a mafia, particularly when the mafia slipped up during a claim.
I highly doubt that for the same reason I doubt the existence of a serial killer, it would be completely imbalanced. In a 24-person game, maybe, but it's 12 people. We have a three-days-to-not-die time limit normally.
You can't be totally against claiming unless someone claims in which case that's cool, I don't have any problems. That's contradictory.
Do you have reads at this point that are not based on massclaiming, besides GF?- I'm getting bad vibes from Iso.Dude, let's be real here: You're a mafia, the town agrees to mass claim, you're up to claim, what's your reaction to this situation?
Because I would be... I'll say defecating, bricks. I'm put on the spot, I don't know what to do, a wrongfully thought out claim equals a big neon sign that I'm mafia.
I mean, I don't disagree with any particular point here. I will add that I wasn't the one who came up with the role.
Only when I die. Otherwise it's Mon's Goblin Raiders, and always town-aligned.
Every day before dawn, I send a Mon's Goblin Raiders, Town-aligned, into the graveyard. You'll see one such example in the graveyard right now.
When I die, I send two goblins into the graveyard of any name (they'll be Goblin Gardeners, because I think the flavor text is funny) and any alignment (town, mafia, or neutral) to the graveyard with me.
Sounds like goblin envy to me.
Also, what's the logic behind the Cantrip read? If you'd like, you can keep it to the quote you posted.
Lastly, what do you think about GF being "one for two" on the justification for his two reads, after your analysis? How do you think the relative inactivity from Terry factors in here?
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@Highroller re: Vez, I think being against a massclaim isn't the same mental space as being against an individual claiming. Also, it's probably not "that's cool," but closer to "this isn't an anti-town action." Context is important here.
I'll be limited access this weekend. Should be able to post daily, still.
I also really like how vezo is playing this game. It doesn’t feel like scum vezo.
I don’t like how high roller is coming across. Seems controlling and a bit hand flashy. Like waving his hands around saying look at me, I’m doing stuff! But I’m not feeling the sincerity.
Is it just Rezom, kami and high roller. Ok spectators and archivalists of greatness. There you have it.
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@Highroller: As far as I'm concerned, that makes no sense whatsoever. Also, wouldn't lurking require I not post? I'm pretty sure I'm staying within required activity levels.
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@JoeTerry: no u
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Don't worry, guys. I'll do things. Eventually.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
"No, that's a horrible idea! It would hurt the town and help the mafia!"
Me: Ok, so what's your Day 3 plan?
"Mass claiming."
Me: Wait, what? Why would you want to mass claim Day 3 then?
"Because it would provide us the information we need to lynch the mafia and not lose the game."
Me: ... So, why wouldn't we do that Day 1 then?
"No! That's a terrible idea!"
Freaking seriously...
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry: Boy, that's a bang-up job you did there with that analysis, Terry. My only notes are to next time take longer to write it and to put less effort in.
Iso: Which part makes no sense?
Firstly, if I see you talking about a third party again I will seriously ignore anything you post, because I expect people to read the thread and if you can't even read the text the mod posted, I don't really feel like you'll read the posts from other players.
And secondly, I'm not really sure why you are so against a day 3 mass claim. It is completely different from a day 1 mass claim with it's pros and cons.
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Check out the Shop Thread
@Rezom the vote makes it obvious I'm scum reading him. That's kind of half the point of voting.
The differences are that the mafia have two more days to coordinate and talk, there are 4 more dead roles for them to scrutinize when making false claims, and four less people who could catch them in a counterclaim. That's it.
Two, scum can take substantial advantage of having a road map of who to kill/block as the result of a mass claim.
Ultimately, the two of you are just yelling theory back and forth at each other, as opposed to, ya know, scum hunting. And while it was interesting to read for a while, it's heading towards being unproductive.
Like, the mafia would have to be insanely ballsy to claim a doctor or inspector day 1 in a game with only 12, so to be safe, they'd have to claim obscure roles. But how obscure? And what, specifically, would they claim? And what if they are forced to claim something, and there's someone with an ability like that in the game? I have more than one ability. This amplifies the difficulty of plausible roleclaims tremendously.
There's also the thematic component to this game. Is there a common theme which would link all the mafia roles, or not? What about color and type?
You have to think about this from a design aspect. When Wuffles created this game, how did he create it? Because you could go any number of ways. You could just put your favorite/iconic banned cards in. OR you could plan it out so there's some sort of rhyme or reason with regards to representation. Example: in a 12 person game, which is of course divisible by six, you could put 2 cards of each color of mana. Did Wuffles do this?
What about with card type? Is there a rhyme or reason to how many creatures, artifacts, spells, and lands we have?
What about which banlist he chose from? Is there a rhyme or reason to that, or is it just from whatever?
We have variables to consider here. You're acting like the mafia must know all of this information already. How? Did Wuffles give them a checklist of every single role and ability in the game with their role PMs? How would they know all of this already?
As I said before, the worst case scenario seems to be they'd know exactly who's the doctor and who's the inspector and will kill accordingly. In addition to the fact that we could very well lose the inspector during day 1 or day 2 anyway via nightkill, this still leaves us with one confirmed town or mafia tomorrow via the inspector, and the resultant information from the mass claim will greatly augment our ability to find mafia.
Again, the mafia benefit from the town's confusion, and from an environment where they can skate under the radar. This forces them out into the open and make claims on the fly, which is the worst case scenario for the mafia.
I'm yelling at the entire town. You have a gold mine underneath you, and all I'm hearing is people talking about how maybe they'll continue sitting on it.
Go read Phantom Tollbooth for a perfect example of similarly roled town members getting into a CC slap fight, and another, similar scum role, ultimately got caught out of the blue and made that entire line of conversation look silly.
Also, I think it's a touch nieve to assume that there are going to be a lot of stock roles in this setup, given what we've already seen (types, colors, graveyards). The range of claims, I expect, will be quite wide, and as a result, trying to catch mafia in a fake claim will be even more difficult than you seem to be assuming.
Not to mention information gained by the town as time moves on will increase much more rapidly, given 9 roles against 3, which would make it much easier to actually catch slipping scum with later claims. Confirmable actions.
Not to say I think one strategy is better than the other, I just see merits to both. Alas, now I am one of the ones yelling about theory. Pot, meet kettle.
This is a 12 person game. There are only so many roles that can exist, and we don't know whether the mafia all have a common theme to their roles, or if how much they know about this, or how the game is constructed thematically. All of these are factors in claiming.
That collapses under any amount of thought. The easiest game for the mafia to fake claim is one with vanilla towns. Every dimension you add becomes that much harder. This has numerous dimensions: card name, card type, color, ability, flavor, and potentially different ban lists. The mafia not only must keep track of all of these, they need to figure out what pattern the mod set up.
Once again, one of the most rudimentary questions a game mod must think of when creating a Magic-themed mafia game is whether or not there's going to balance with regards to color or not. I set up a game in which there were an equal number of players represented among all colors. Is that the case here? Or is it just grab bag? If so, did Wuggles choose the cards based on who'd fit the roles he'd laid out already? Did he take cards that were iconic banned cards like Black Lotus and make roles around that? Or is it a bit of both? These are the most elementary questions a game designer must answer.
You're saying the mafia definitely has the answer to all of these questions. I don't see how that's possible. They have three data points. You're presuming that from this they know all they need to know about all 12 roles to produce plausible claims that cannot be seen through without any possibility of them slipping up. Again, not seeing how that's possible.
Once again, we have people advocating a Day 3 claim. If you're advocating a Day 3 game, or even a Day 2 claim, then there's zero reason we wouldn't benefit far more from a Day 1 claim. If you're against any mass claim at all, then I completely disagree, but it's at least consistent. But the idea of stalling a claim benefits no one but the mafia. The people who have the most to lose are the mafia, who immediately lose all advantages and are forced to react on the spot with very limited information. If I were mafia, I would be opposing a Day 1 claim adamantly.
What do you mean, "Not to say I think one strategy is better than the other"? How can you not think one strategy is better than the other? You have to have an opinion on that.
It's been proven time and time again that mods on MTGS give roles to the scum that don't even need a fakeclaim. We had scum vigs in multiple games, KA was a scum gladiator.
How would you identify the scum if they claim their exact role, but instead of alignment they say they are town?
Anyway this conversation is pretty useless, because simply put we aren't mass-claiming today so let's get to scumhunting or random voting r whatever you want, but post more.
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A deadline is now in effect. The deadline is 30 October at 9:30pm (Auckland GMT+12) approximately.
Because life can happen, I reserve the right to extend this deadline. Twilight will probably last around an hour from the time I call it, but I can be busy during the week, so allow 12-24 hours if needed.
With 12 alive, it is SEVEN to lynch.
I don't like that so many people feel like they're lurking. I got a new computer at work and I'm still setting things up, but once I get the monitor splitter cable I need, I can probably do that re-read I hinted at, earlier.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Also, so what you're saying is, this:
Totally believeable, but the ability I claimed isn't?
Although I will agree with the part about so many lurking. According to the post counter, we have 135 total posts, in which Bur has 9 posts; Axelrod, rezombied, and MOOS12 all have 6 posts; and Cantrip has 4 posts. Everyone else has 10 or more.
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With no Neutrals in the game, I can't even possibly begin to imagine what your role is if what you're claiming is accurate. Ergo, Occam's Razor suggests to me that what you're claiming isn't accurate, at least to some degree.
I understand that you're probably going to get frustrated by this line of discourse, but we're in a situation where you're not able to make me make sense of what you're saying without a fullclaim, and I don't want you to fullclaim unless you're at L-2. I don't know how much you recall from back in the day, nor if you're familiar with our current norms, so I wanted to stress to you that reacting emotionally in this situation isn't likely conducive for the gamestate.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
And don't expect a whole lot of activity from me early on either. I tend to post a lot less when there isn't much to work with. D1 is 90% just guessing. I'll have my most educated guess from what has happened so far in a bit, I suppose.
I'm not getting the cantrip suspicion.
KamikazeArchon – (NZ) 20-22 October
Iso & Cantripmancer – Difficulty posting on weekends
Ganderin_Dan – (NZ) 28-30 October
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
No argument here, I agree. This logic doesn't really stand up in my eyes, as far as a specific Day to claim. Either claim immediately, claim after you have a focal mechanical point (cop check) to build your gameplan around, or claim in Ly/MyLo.
I wasn't attempting to give an opinion on the matter, but strictly discuss the merits of the theory behind it. Assuming this means you do want my opinion, however, I think if the setup were less complex, I'd be willing to massclaim and coordinate actions here. Generally speaking, I am pro-public information from townsfolk. I think given the context of this setup, I don't support a claim until we have something to build off of, but once we get to that point I'm for it.
On this note, I would like to stop engaging on the subject and discuss other, more meaningful things. It does feel like a lot of people are lurking, and this is providing a huge distraction to allow the scum to join that number.
Should we start considering replacements, Wuffles?
Iso:
Yeah, yeah, I know, it's the plot death that gets the ball rolling, but that first person dead is generally town. Also, I can create neutral roles. The fact of the matter is that neutrals didn't need to exist at all. So I don't think it's unreasonable to consider the possibility that Wuffles included another.
Dude, you're the one coming out with this idea that I'm claiming some sort of threshold thingie role and then acting bewildered that I'm claiming what I claimed as opposed to something bizarre that you came up with from left field. Not sure how I'm the irrational one but okay.
ganderin_dan: I agree, we shouldn't discuss a mass claim anymore because it's clear the town won't do it, therefore we should refrain from discussing it further. (But seriously, everything you said was wrong.)
THERE ARE NO NEUTRAL *PLAYER* roles in this setup, as was established in the first post. And the signups. And by multiple players quoting the words from the first post. And the signups.
There are 9 roles that are town aligned. Three roles that are mafia aligned. There are no roles that are not aligned with either the town or the mafia.
I started out not caring much and now I'm definitely against a massclaim simply because Highroller's arguments have been so flawed.
Vezok: Your view on cantrip is extremely similar to mine. Why no commentary on that? Especially given that I successfully "mindmelded" you in Phantom Tollbooth as scum?
Looking back through the thread the things I like most are Bur's naked vote on Rezombie, Vez's indignation at most things, and highrollers absolute self confidence.
Things that are pinging me hardest Rezombies hard push on Vez for oversharing but zero interest in pushing highroller, KAs interest in vezs defensiveness and no interest in Zom's aggression, Terry's shade laden vote, and highrollers absolute self confidence.
Vote: Rezombie
I just don't get his focus this game. Going from "I don't like Vez ignoring Grapes advice and need to hear more from highroller" to "I don't care why people are voting me" and not really following up on highroller and jumping on me with a bandwagony gotcha feels blatantly scummy to me.
Also can we get an updated vote count?