1 of highroller, Iso, and Cantrip is probably scum here.
Why that set specifically?
That group because they are all pushing me confidently without having concrete reasoning. They all are saying that have these reasons but despite reading there posts I can't figure out what their specific issues with me are.
We're about 27 hours from the deadline and I feel like there has been little discernible movement. Given we're about 26 hours from the deadline we probably need to kick things back into gear.
@Highroller why the questions about how much of a breadcrumb my caring about card types was?
@Axel you mention preferring lynching a lurker (Dan or Bur) do you have a preference between the two?
@everyone who are you willing to lynch and who do you want to lynch?
50 has several elements that didn't feel right to me. The whole "I feel insulted and complimented" part is vague, he focuses on my being scum for suggesting a flavor claim in another game, despite that not being the point, and then the final comment was, as is pointed out later, easily confused as to what exactly is skeeving Grape out (oh, he says in 68 that this was intentional). His exploration of banned cards that would care about graveyards in 61 felt off to me the first time through, although it feels a little more natural upon reread. Naked vote on Terry when Terry only had three posts felt odd, but not horrible.
93 is one of the townier posts Grape's made. A refocus from someone else to himself is less likely to come from scum. Ah, and there's his rationale in 126 for voting Terry. "I think your vote was forced feeling and the mimicking of the joke you were supposedly finding over the top is a discrediting sort of thing I could see scum you doing." I don't see how you get that sufficiently from Terry's exceptionally brief third post. I don't think I believe that you believe your own reason, at least not to the point of making a serious vote.
Most of 188 sounds fine, but it felt strange for Grape to talk about KA and Terry together, identify something he thought was shady about KA, then identify something he found shady about Terry's attack on KA. It felt like Grape was trying to shade both of them, even though by nature if he thinks Terry is poorly attacking KA, he shouldn't think KA is likely scum.
A lot of the following posts where he argues with Rez seem pretty good. I can see his point of view, and he's arguing with logic. 291 reads as actual frustration, although that's not necessarily NAI.
I was strongly pinged by GF saying in 310 that he remembered someone saying they saw town indicators from Rez but GF not following up on that. Why wouldn't you be interested in what town indicators people saw in your scumspect?
352 was horrible because he took the deflection from his declared top scumspect (Rez) as an opportunity to join the more popular wagon (Terry) without even once questioning whether scum!Rez would bus buddy!Terry like that. (I find it highly unlikely, but that's not the point. The point is that it feels like Grape was just like "ok, person I suspect, you have a good point and I'll blindly follow you onto another player I suspect without really thinking about the relationship between the two of you.")
399 he essentially says he's suspicious of Rez and Terry because they're difficult to work with. Can't speak to Rez, but that's pretty much Terry's default regardless of alignment (no offense intended, Terry).
After claiming roleblocker, I don't buy his assertion in 412 that, as town, he chose Highroller for his pregame ability. The whole "he looks like a guy who enjoys Magic" argument makes nearly ZERO sense to me when Grape could have picked a player he is familiar with to more easily assess that player down the road. I also, as noted, don't believe that he actually thought Highroller would figure out that it was Grape who gave him the choice.
@Grape: Why do you feel like the conditional nature of your ability makes it more likely to be a town ability (434)?
As Dan pointed out, Grape's assertion in 440 that Dan has done less than Bur is pretty terrible shade.
531 is the culmination of Grape's assertion that the lack of counterclaim should point to him being more likely town, but he doesn't even acknowledge the idea that town might not have an interference role. Yes, in a role madness game, I would say it's likely that both town and scum have interference roles, but that doesn't mean that every role madness game will necessarily have them on both sides. This isn't necessarily scummy, though, as I could see the same post coming from Grape knowing that he's a town interference role.
EWP: @Grape: Ok, so I kept seeing that section of 68 as you responding to Bur's question of why you voted Terry, but it almost felt like you were defending Terry, but now I see that you just didn't respond to Dan's question.
Double EWP: And Grape's 552 feels like him feeling out CFD possibilities. +scum
On the plus side, hopefully Grape's still viewing the thread and can respond to the above soon.
I'll look at Terry next, but it may not be tonight. :/ How come the two players I need to review the most have the two highest post counts in the game?
Well I can definitely confirm that someone sent me a message with four choices, and to choose two with regards to card types. Grapefruit claiming roleblocker made me believe he was town as my experience with that role was usually a town role. However, I've not played mafia in a long time, and apparently the role is quite well known as a stock mafia role as well, particularly when the mafia members have powers themselves, which I'm assuming this game is an example of. So right now, his claim does nothing to point towards town or mafia, and since his own behavior has pointed towards mafia, I'm voting Grapefruit.
That group because they are all pushing me confidently without having concrete reasoning.
I've been pointing how that you've been acting like mafia for almost the entire day now.
I mean, for goodness sakes, the repeated criticism I'm given for you is that you're trying to work backwards from a lynch vote on someone, looking to lynch someone as your primary priority and to provide adequate reasoning for that vote second. At this point, can you possibly deny this?
@Highroller why the questions about how much of a breadcrumb my caring about card types was?
Because it's this thing you said out of nowhere that's completely baffling, and all the more so because vezok is agreeing with you for some inscrutable reason.
You said you thought you'd made it obvious you were the person whose ability resulted in my getting a PM because you said that your role cared about card types. I'm going to go ahead and guess that we all either have an ability that functions like a normal mafia stock role ability that's twisted in some way to fit the mechanics of this game (players have card names, card types, colors, there's a graveyard, etc.), have a role that's completely unique to this game, or both at the same time seeing as how I have more than one ability and I don't doubt there's at least one other person who does too.
So how is saying, "My role cares about card types and I wouldn't be surprised if scum roles did too," an obvious hint? Why is vezok saying something about me not only getting a breadcrumb, but getting the whole bread? Why would you say that? Not only would it not make sense to assume that caring about card type made your role unique - for all we know most of the roles in this game depend on card type - but more than that, you just said you assumed that other people, including the mafia, had abilities that depend on card type.
So why are you and vezok both saying that "My role cares about card types and I wouldn't be surprised if scum roles did too," makes it really obvious that you're the person whose ability resulted in my PM? How would anyone have sufficient information to presume this from that sentence?
It's completely contradictory. You can't say that you don't think we should claim anything about our roles because you have a role that cares about card types and you believe that others might, including the mafia, and then say that you thought that saying your role cares about card type should make it obvious that the message about an ability that cares about card types automatically points to yours. You just said there are probably others in this game!
1 of highroller, Iso, and Cantrip is probably scum here.
Why that set specifically?
That group because they are all pushing me confidently without having concrete reasoning. They all are saying that have these reasons but despite reading there posts I can't figure out what their specific issues with me are.
Cantrip, I’ll save you the time. I’m not scum, I promise.
Oddly, this feels like the towniest post I've seen so far from Terry. Simply because it's hard for me to believe that scum would have this level of audacity in Terry's current position.
KA
Cantrip
Az
[no order]
Iso, vezok, Highroller, Axelrod
[/no order]
rez
Terry, Grapefruit
g_d
Bur
dan's catchup post concerns me for reasons I've outlined. Bur has essentially no contribution and unlike dan, doesn't have a good reason for it. TBH both of those have more net problems than either Terry or Grape; however, they have zero momentum, and they will give us little in the way of interaction analysis on a flip. So {rez, terry, grape} is still the right set to be looking at today.
Ok. I started rereading from the beginning and I realized (mostly because I just got off a game as scum) that all the early stuff may come in handy down the line once we get some flips, but I think right now, I need to focus on deadline actions. That’s where it gets tough to scum, when you actually have to push someone to get lynched that you know is town. I’m re-examining how that deadline fake out we had played out. BRB
@Az Make it the bottom 6 and I'd be in favor. I'd be happy to trade myself for Rezombie and KA, especially if I get Bur and Terry thrown in for it.
@Cantrip and Dan went through to find not reading the game posts. Skipping Monster Manual because I wasn't reading the game and those were accurate. Feel free to scum read me more because of that one.
In Phantom Tollbooth I took 631 as one and 1275 is correctly one. In the second I completely missed or forgot a claim that made my target useless and muddied the game up for a while making everyone think there was a non existent scum RB.
In Playstation there was this whole back and for with DV, with 1184 being the clearest example. But really the whole argument is full of me being (to varying degree's of correctness) accused of not reading the game/making things up.
I was wrong about being told I wasn't reading the game in Resistance. It was instead repeated accusations that I wasn't doing anything. I'd conflated them in my head.
And I got distracted rereading resistance from the point where I dunked on KJ. That might be the greatest mafia moment I've ever had. I think there were accusations in F&E too but I'm out of time.
Quote from Grape »
Okay after all that I have nothing. Az's case is good. His confidence seems excessive based on what he's saying but it's not way out of line. I'd still rather lynch Rez but it's closer than it was.
lol
You see it's funny because that's exactly why Rez is scum.
Anyway I have been answering your questions, you just seem to take them as further proof I'm scum. Anyway have fun trying to lynch me.
@Cantrip I'm going to wait and see on Az. He's doing a few things that always ping me (the confidence mostly) but our reads are lining up. His reasons in the Terry case and his initial catch up are solid and I like the internal change of heart on Highroller in particular. It's not outside Az's scum range, but it's not something most people would do as scum for a first impression. Have him at a town lean for now.
Quote from Grape »
That group because they are all pushing me confidently without having concrete reasoning. They all are saying that have these reasons but despite reading there posts I can't figure out what their specific issues with me are.
Quote from Grape »
We're about 27 hours from the deadline and I feel like there has been little discernible movement. Given we're about 26 hours from the deadline we probably need to kick things back into gear.
@Highroller why the questions about how much of a breadcrumb my caring about card types was?
@Axel you mention preferring lynching a lurker (Dan or Bur) do you have a preference between the two?
@everyone who are you willing to lynch and who do you want to lynch?
Quote from Grape »
Too many people are talking in very confident terms about me without giving any hard evidence. I don't like this one bit.
1 of highroller, Iso, and Cantrip is probably scum here. Gut says Cantrip but I don't have much. It's the way he's asked me a bunch of questions, seemed either satisfied with most (not the ones about my attentiveness I suppose) and then continuing to scum read me while not pointing to anything. We've interacted a ton this game and for him to just to express an "off" feeling doesn't seem right to me. Don't really have any thoughts of his being aligned or not with either Terry or Rez. Will try to look at that but don't expect to have time to do much before the deadline and I'm always dubious of that stuff before flips.
Iso just feels like Iso and I can't tell if this is him reading me wrong for the umpteenth time or if it's him roleplaying blustery confident Iso like he did in F&E.
Quote from Grape »
B is often a scum role. And Gifts Ungiven does say opponent. These are facts.
Dan not voting all day is absurdly tilting... Think it's greater than rand to be scummy. Don't lynch Vez, I usually can't read him but I'm pretty sure this is town Vez. Iso and Az are both townish. Cantrip a little stronger than that. Highroller is probably town. But also probably going to live a long time.
Quote from Grape »
If I'm now counting wrong and I'm not dead yet I'm claiming gifts ungiven. I can roleblock certain card types that Highroller chose for me in the pregame. Going to keep those under wraps unless Highroller choses to reveal them.
Quote from Grape »
Ohhh guess I was the CFD then.
Welp that's not ideal.
Lynch Terry tomorrow. Or one of Rez or KA depending on night actions. If there is a vig shoot Bur.
@Cantrip I don't have any unalignment reads except around Highroller at this point. I don't generally look for alignment or unalignments on D1.
Quote from Grape »
No time today (tonight) will definitely have some time tomorrow and be around for the deadline.
On Bur; he's a shrug at this point. I liked his entrance but he's done nothing since. Not my first choice but would lynch him over no lynching. Probably will have to be lynched at some point.
@Highroller Reason I threw up my hands in frustration is you asked me what I thought townie responses from Rezombie would be. I gave you two different ones and you acted like the words I was putting in his mouth were my own.
@Az My first choice is Rezombie. I think he's reasonably scummy and lacks any town indicators I've seen. I know someone mentioned seeing some but I haven't noticed any. I also want to lynch KA and Terry but not as high a priority as Rez to me. KA's caginess is pinging me. It's not something I really remember him doing before this game. My read on Terry is stale but I really didn't like his entrance. His "I like what grape is doing, pushing me to get me engaged" read is just bizarre. Haven't had a chance to take your case in. I'll read it in the morning.
On highroller I wouldn't love him getting run up. I think he really believes the town should mass claim thing and that he did believe the random lynching wins the game thing too. And going for them as hard as he has would be such a weird all in as scum. It's not a lock town read but I just don't feel he's that scummy and have several people I'd lynch before him. I wouldn't hard defend him because my read isn't that strong but I definitely wouldn't be cheering.
@Cantrip I haven't had a chance to read his wall on Terry yet and don't have a firm read on him. Nothing immediately pinged me and apart from having me towards the bottom of his reads wall our reads were reasonably similar. Townish-null at this point. I should be able give you a more in depth answer when I wake up and actually read his wall. What do you make of him so far?
Quote from Grape »
@Az Make it the bottom 6 and I'd be in favor. I'd be happy to trade myself for Rezombie and KA, especially if I get Bur and Terry thrown in for it.
@Cantrip and Dan went through to find not reading the game posts. Skipping Monster Manual because I wasn't reading the game and those were accurate. Feel free to scum read me more because of that one.
In Phantom Tollbooth I took 631 as one and 1275 is correctly one. In the second I completely missed or forgot a claim that made my target useless and muddied the game up for a while making everyone think there was a non existent scum RB.
In Playstation there was this whole back and for with DV, with 1184 being the clearest example. But really the whole argument is full of me being (to varying degree's of correctness) accused of not reading the game/making things up.
I was wrong about being told I wasn't reading the game in Resistance. It was instead repeated accusations that I wasn't doing anything. I'd conflated them in my head.
And I got distracted rereading resistance from the point where I dunked on KJ. That might be the greatest mafia moment I've ever had. I think there were accusations in F&E too but I'm out of time.
In sum, I feel like there's a maybe 40-50% spread on Grape being scum, definitely higher than average, definitely on our kill-list, but we could easily be wrong. For comparison, I'd rate a 70-80% on terry, and an 80% on Ganderin dan. Out of my bottom 5, he's been steadily rising towards the less urgently needing his head chopped off strata given a number of tells that just aren't quite the prototypical scum response to pressure, or where he's organically thinking through certain reads. Most of the recent things I dislike could probably be classified as logic issues, like him trying to push the highroller case initially a little too hard (which he backed off of), and his attempt to argue that not being counter-claimed should be a point in his favor.
But yeah, 270 in particular where he got excited to trade himself for Rez, KA, Bur, and Terry is a really interesting post I've been mulling over since he made it.
@Highroller I'm saying literally you are the only person who would find that sufficient. Even if you didn't go "aha Grape must have sent me the message" I'm shocked you didn't at least speculate or wonder if it was.
As for your assertion that I'm acting like mafia because I'm voting and providing reasoning after that's how I play as both alignments. It's why ISO scum reads me every game. Which is funny because it's inspired by him to some degree.
@Cantrip On post 50 I'm bad at jokes. I like trying to make them, but I'm decidedly unfunny. The insulted and complimented thing was the way everyone was talking about me in a position of authority on whether Vez should have claimed. I don't get your point on my bringing up you being scum in the other game. On Vez's talking about the flavor claim what was your reaction to it on reread. Ignoring my reaction for a second what did you think when you saw him mention it?
For 188 I've said a few times now I worry less about building teams on D1. I think KA's vote was scummy and should have been pushed, but I thhink the way Vez pushed him over it was even scummier than the vote. It's unlikely both are scum together but both were scummy. I'm not trying to build worlds on D1.
On my targeting Highroller your suspicions here make no sense to me. I don't understand why my stated reasoning is suspect to you (the man posts a ton on the forums and has a literal banned card as his avatar) and I don't get how it leads to a scum read. I am utterly baffled by why this matters to you. Especially since there isn't any doubt that it's happened.
On why the conditional nature points to me being town: having a full RB is much more likely to unbalance town than it is scum. Town often have watered down roles in games like these (limited shots are the most common trope) while scum are more likely to have fully powered roles. Not a hard and fast rule but a soft point towards my role being townie.
Work has been crazy but I think I answered all the direct questions.
Cantrip, I’ll save you the time. I’m not scum, I promise.
So, Terry, tell me something straight here. You keep saying things like this. A lot. Do you actually think this is an argument in your favor? Seriously. Or are you just trying to be funny here?
Like, I hate to be the one to ruin the joke by not getting it, but, if it's a joke I'm not getting it. And if it's not a joke, what is it?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
And even if I actually thought that my post would influence anyone, I'd still do it as any alignment as I have a strong history of suggesting different types of mass-claims early game even though almost the entire MTGS playerbase considers it a bad idea.
I don't care. "I do this every game" isn't really a valid argument to me right now.
I don't really need to show work here. You can just read this snippet.
because terry is still not answering my question. i wouldn't be opposed to a grape vote after his most recent posts to me and him still trying to argue about nothing.
Then he quotes veto saying that he would behave this way as either alignment and Rezom transforms that into saying that vezo was saying that he does it every game.
i dont understand this, could you show your work for this statement?
this
----
im still catching up/rereading but im seriously hating all these "so-and-so is town because they wouldnt do this as scum im so good at meta" reads.
Ok. I started rereading from the beginning and I realized (mostly because I just got off a game as scum) that all the early stuff may come in handy down the line once we get some flips, but I think right now, I need to focus on deadline actions. That’s where it gets tough to scum, when you actually have to push someone to get lynched that you know is town. I’m re-examining how that deadline fake out we had played out. BRB
Ok, going back to when we were about T-minus 26 hours to the faux deadline, here's some things I noticed:
We get a vote count in post #309, with Bur and Rezom each with two votes and a handful of other people at 1. In the next post, Grape states that his first choice of Lynch is Rezom and that he would settle for a Lynch on me or Kami.
In post #318, Kami jumps onto the Rezo wagon, with little to no reasoning.
Cantrip also jumps on the ISO led charge on Grape in post #325, expressing concern that no-one is pressuring Bur, who he was previously voting.
Vez comes in shortly after (#331) and pads the Rezom wagon with some really scummy logic:
"I think this is a reasonable lynch although I'm not convinced he is scum."
Cantrip requested deadline extensions several times and I think scum wants a no-lynch, so I'm pretty comfortable putting Cantrip in my town pile for awhile. His posting has been solid too.
Post #336 by Vezo sounds really buddy acting like he would bus.
Rezom's frustration really is starting to look town to me (see #337).
#345 by Grape is another really questionable post.
"I'd vote Terry here but before reading Azs wall I prefer lynching Rez."
Then he goes on the record in the next post saying that he read Az's wall on me and it was good. Just opening up that window to claim through onto my wagon. The problem is, Az's post on me wasn't good. He'd even ISOed me in reverse order (as Axel so kindly pointed out). Yeah, so BIG surprise, Grape votes me in #352.
The next interesting vote is from Kami on me in post #355. I immediately call him out on this for saying:
"vote Terry for deadline lynch, because if my math is right he's ahead of rezombied in votes."
First that's a terrible reason to vote someone. Second, IT WASN'T EVEN CORRECT!
Highroller (post #360) calls out Grape's vote in #352, which is interesting considering that he moves off Grapefruit onto me shortly after (#411 after Grape claims). Oh and says I'm a troll and town needs me like a hole in the head... BUT he's REALLY CONFIDENT GRAPE IS SCUM (see #381, also thanks for getting me a flaming warning Highroller)
I'd like to point out Kami's post #374, where he admits to fudging the numbers for his last reason he said he voted me for and then proceeds to say I'm flailing and later crap, like "You're not fighting for your life, bro. Unless a bunch of people show up out of nowhere and do something about it." He also says that him switching to Rezom isn't going to get him lynched as an excuse for voting me as well, but that's also completely made up. We were 3-3 when he went to me, which means that he doesn't care about numbers or play, he's just trying to Lynch me over Rezom because either he's buddies with Rezom OR he was sensing the tide turn on me and just wanting to get on board.
When I point out how Kami was fear mongering, you know who backs me up? Rezom. His post #379 does NOT feel like a scum post. I just don't see him doing that as scum period. I'm backing off my Rezom suspicion.
I switch to Grape from Rezom and Kami follows (#394). This vote skeeves me out, it's a bad vote, but it's from me to someone I still think is scum. This is where Highroller votes me and then Kami right after. All of Kami's votes have been super opportunistic like this whole game.
Rezom then goes to GF, then Vezo goes to GF (another chronically opportunistic voter)...
ANNNNNDDDDDD Deadline Extension. SCENE!
(I'll sort through this in a minute and try to make some sense of it)
Cantrip, I’ll save you the time. I’m not scum, I promise.
So, Terry, tell me something straight here. You keep saying things like this. A lot. Do you actually think this is an argument in your favor? Seriously. Or are you just trying to be funny here?
Like, I hate to be the one to ruin the joke by not getting it, but, if it's a joke I'm not getting it. And if it's not a joke, what is it?
No, Axel, I don't expect people to take my word for it. It's half joke full truth, but no I'm not expecting people to town clear me for this. This smear campaign against me has really ruined my rep.
And even if I actually thought that my post would influence anyone, I'd still do it as any alignment as I have a strong history of suggesting different types of mass-claims early game even though almost the entire MTGS playerbase considers it a bad idea.
I don't care. "I do this every game" isn't really a valid argument to me right now.
I don't really need to show work here. You can just read this snippet.
because terry is still not answering my question. i wouldn't be opposed to a grape vote after his most recent posts to me and him still trying to argue about nothing.
Then he quotes veto saying that he would behave this way as either alignment and Rezom transforms that into saying that vezo was saying that he does it every game.
i dont understand this, could you show your work for this statement?
this
----
im still catching up/rereading but im seriously hating all these "so-and-so is town because they wouldnt do this as scum im so good at meta" reads.
My point was that because somebody says something is not alignment indicative, does not mean they do it every game, just that they would do it as either alignment. I think we may be nitpicking here. I have significant suspicions of Vezo now and significantly less suspicions of you at this point.
Ok, I think Kami's track history of opportunistic voting the whole day, especially at deadline is super suspicious. It's what turned my eye towards in right in the beginning when he voted vezo, who also exhibits some pretty horrendous opportunistic votes today. I still think Grape is full of it and am happy with my vote on him, but I'm off the Rezom wagon. I will also vote Kami and Vezo today, but deadlines are coming and it may be too late to CFD to either of those players.
Highroller doesn't compute to me. I can't figure him out. I'm suspicious, but I see town moments too.
My point was that because somebody says something is not alignment indicative, does not mean they do it every game, just that they would do it as either alignment. I think we may be nitpicking here. I have significant suspicions of Vezo now and significantly less suspicions of you at this point.
i want receipts of me "transforming" his statements though. because i definitely didn't do that.
@Az: You quoted some of those Grape posts twice. For the ones that don't have any bolded sections, do you just feel like the whole post is towny? And yes, I noticed 270, but in the end, it's really just WIFOM, isn't it?
@Terry: I know your comment was intended rather tongue in cheek. I hope you see that my response was, too.
@Grape: As I intimated in #51, Vez's comment on my flavor claim made me raise an eyebrow ("Vez gets a town lean...but..."). I wasn't sure why he would post like I was seriously suggesting a flavor claim.
Can you speak to your 352? Do you think Rez and Terry are buddies? If not, how does your mindset in that post make sense?
With choosing Highroller, I'm just trying to put myself in town!you shoes. I know that's not an exact science of an exercise, but if I had a role that allowed another player to make that kind of choice, I'd want to target someone that I felt like I could read so that later, when their choice came to light, hopefully with some corroborating information (like one or two scum's card types), I'd be better equipped to figure out my target's possible choice motivations. That you'd choose someone who you had zero Mafia experience with seems odd to me. I'd also want to get that player's thoughts on what they were choosing (not specifics, but "I chose cards that I wanted good things to happen to" or "I chose cards that I felt would be less likely to be in the game" or somesuch) before I revealed what the choice did to help me gauge how they chose. This points, I feel, to the role being a scum role, as town wants to use it as a tool to help figure out their target (which is much more difficult to do when the target doesn't know what they're choosing), while scum is just happy messing with their target and gaining two card types to roleblock. I didn't see you trying to use it as a tool at all, so I think it's more likely you're scum.
I can see your point on it being restricted being more likely to be on town, I suppose. But the pre-game random nature I think points to scum (especially with no explanation of what the ability does). For example, if it's a town ability, you have an uninformed town who has to choose randomly among all other players. The recipient, without being told what the choice does, and with no way to find out or figure out before they make their choice, just chooses two card types. That feels like--at its base--just a randomization of an ability. If that's the case, why wouldn't Wuffles just give you a role that says "these two card types were randomly selected at the start of the game; if you target one of these card types with your ability, you roleblock that player"?
Conversely, if it's a scum ability, then all kinds of WIFOM and choices come into play. Before the game even begins, you have the opportunity to mess with a townie, possibly make yourself seem like a friend, someone who gave them a choice, someone who shares a secret with them. After you flip, unless your chosen target is obv!town, the town may mistakenly mislynch thinking you targeted scum, or if you targeted a buddy, maybe they give him town pants for being your target. The more I think about it, the more likely it seems that it's a scum role. I admit that I will sometimes fall into the modgaming/setupgaming trap, so by itself, I wouldn't see this alone as condemning, but in conjunction with the behavioral pings, I really think you're the best lynch for toDay.
"And even if I actually thought that my post would influence anyone, I'd still do it as any alignment"
You said:
"I don't care. "I do this every game" isn't really a valid argument to me right now."
It's really straight forward, which why I responded to you in the way I did, multiple times.
This completely misrepresents that exchange because the full quote is: (emphasis mine) "And even if I actually thought that my post would influence anyone, I'd still do it as any alignment as I have a strong history of suggesting different types of mass-claims early game even though almost the entire MTGS playerbase considers it a bad idea."
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Highroller I'm saying literally you are the only person who would find that sufficient. Even if you didn't go "aha Grape must have sent me the message"
No, that's the problem right there. Why would I think, "Grape must have sent the message," when every indication was that everyone had a role ability and that role abilities that dealt with mechanics were common? Which, I might add, you yourself agreed with, that was the whole point behind that post you made telling us we shouldn't claim stuff.
As for your assertion that I'm acting like mafia because I'm voting and providing reasoning after that's how I play as both alignments.
I'm waiting for people in this game to realize that "my mafia game is the same as my town game" just means "you are never without basis for voting for me."
So, Terry, tell me something straight here. You keep saying things like this. A lot. Do you actually think this is an argument in your favor? Seriously. Or are you just trying to be funny here?
Like, I hate to be the one to ruin the joke by not getting it, but, if it's a joke I'm not getting it. And if it's not a joke, what is it?
Honestly, I've been saying that for the vast majority of his posts.
@Cantrip on 50 I didn't read the game. I just knew you'd proposed it after asking me about your character in the team chat. I was trying to understand Vez because the whole thing was weird. I'm not really even sure what point you're making other than I forgot you said you weren't serious.
On the targeting, that makes sense. I didn't consider it as I was geeking out about gifts too much. Thinking about it now I think there is too much wine to draw information from the choice. Scum would know 3 cards and probably have a mix of types. The person on the receiving end doesn't have much context to work with. It would have been nice to grill highroller on why he chose before I revealed but I wasn't really in a position to do so the way the game played out.
@Highroller so you think I'm scum (in part) because I believe multiple roles would care about card types but was surprised you didn't guess I was the one who sent you the choice?
@Grape: Can you address my question about your 352? I'll repost it for easy reference:
Can you speak to your 352? Do you think Rez and Terry are buddies? If not, how does your mindset in that post make sense?
And on asking Highroller about why he made his choice, I feel like there was opportunity to do so before you came under significant scrutiny and certainly before you got to claim range, but I don't see any movement from you to do so. You say you didn't even think about it...that surprises me if you're town, as I think you're a good player, and when presented with a tool, town generally tend to start thinking how best to use that tool. I mean, I geeked out a little about my card, too, but then I started figuring out ways to maximize its effectiveness.
Hey, Vezok, I know you think I'm scum so everything I say drips with poison distilled from the blood of sacrificed children, but what were your thoughts on my 553?
I can't get myself worked up about the deadline. D1 is just such a crap shoot for me anyway. But here for your viewing pleasure is my very non-scientific and rough assessment about where I have people right now:
Town People:(would be very surprised to find one one was scum)
Highroller
Vezokpiraka
Townish People:(historically, someone here is almost certainly scum)
Azrael (not dong anything overtly scummy. Very skilled. Will never trust)
Cantripmancer (kind of ditto)
KamikazeArchon (he had a kind of bad early vote practically during RVS, and since then mostly fine. Pretty conservative as far as the posting and opinions goes, but no real red flags for me. I do dislike his seeming willingness to lynch anyone and voting just for whoever had the most votes at deadline. But being around and active at the prior deadline was good.)
Grapefruit21 (this is not a horse I would bet my mafia life on, but has seemed mostly fine to me. Worst things may be the questionable claimed basis for picking Highroller as his target and questionable subsequent claim that he was trying to hint to Highroller about it).
No Opinion to Concerning People:
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry (his reads seem pretty bad to me, and his constant assertions that he's Town do not resonate. I recall JT making some seriously questionable plays last game we were in, so we have some fairly differing ideas on how to play)
Iso (doing his Iso thing, which I find scummy. Also, i don't especially like how he would give an opinion on someone (a weak opinion even) and then cast shade if the person didn't "respond" to him, even where he didn't ask the person any questions, but was just giving an opinion)
Rezombied (not making any kind of impression at all, which is concerning.)
Die People:
ganderin_dan (still more questions than analysis)
Bur (lurking scum)
In conclusion. I hate lurkers.
Private Mod Note
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@Az: You quoted some of those Grape posts twice. For the ones that don't have any bolded sections, do you just feel like the whole post is towny? And yes, I noticed 270, but in the end, it's really just WIFOM, isn't it?
Yes, whole post.
I don't believe in writing things off as wine and not thinking them through. Not all cups of wine are equal. What's the person's propensity for using wine? Is it an elegant, organically crafted statement that contains pro-town thought elements unlikely to come from scum, or is it just "LOL I'M TOWN OBV", a la Terry. is the mindset they're representing believable for that person - does Grape seem like the type who would get excited about trading himself for scum?
Those are the kinds of things I'm puzzling over as far as his #270. Not nearly as simple as wine, therefore ignore.
@Terry: I'm pretty sure that Vezok's town. I will not join his wagon toDay. I will be VERY surprised if you can make that happen, and I'm a little concerned that you would choose to go after a player that's mostly town-read this close to deadline.
@Axelrod: I'm a little confused as to why Rezombied, who has made multiple posts but hasn't made an impression on you, ranks higher than GanDan, who has made several posts with reads, analysis, and original thought (even if his questions outweigh those reads/analysis/etc) (AND he has a valid reason to lurk). (As an aside, no matter how you intended the "kind of ditto" after my entry in your list, I choose to interpret it as you comparing my play to Azreal, which I 100% take as a high compliment and will treasure always...unless of course you're just scumbuttering me up.)
I'm not terribly impressed with your list, although it's a little bit spicy to put Az high and Iso low, imo. We have two competing wagons right now, and one of them is in your "no opinion to concerning" pile, but you eschew that option to go after lurkers. With the obligatory rationale of "I hate lurkers."
I really wish this had come about 24 hours earlier, as I suddenly really want to CFD onto you, but I don't feel like we have time for that. Working on rereading Terry as we speak.
@Az: Ok, fair. The part that made me less inclined to see it as townish was that he listed FOUR other players. It felt less like town conviction/willingness to trade and more like scum sowing connections.
Well I think that’s a legit slip. I just lost thunderdome with a slip in cops. They are real and I think vezo slipped that not only is grape town, but it implies he knows we are BOTH town. Do we just lynch grape anyways? I hope not. I hope it’s not me instead because that’s worse case right there.
@Highroller so you think I'm scum (in part) because I believe multiple roles would care about card types but was surprised you didn't guess I was the one who sent you the choice?
I thought you were mafia long before that, Grapefruit. It's just baffling to me why you would think this, and especially why vezok is agreeing with you.
Well I think that’s a legit slip. I just lost thunderdome with a slip in cops. They are real and I think vezo slipped that not only is grape town, but it implies he knows we are BOTH town. Do we just lynch grape anyways? I hope not. I hope it’s not me instead because that’s worse case right there.
...glad you explained that to me, because I never would have gotten there on my own. I...will be surprised if that's a legit slip. I could be wrong, I guess, but Vezok has just had a ton of town posts. Still not interested in lynching toDay.
If I'm interpreting the chart correctly, we're currently tied at 4 and 4 for Grape and Terry. I don't think I have the time for much of an update on my Terry case atm, though I understand that'd probably be helpful.
Is there a large segment of the playerbase that really feels this is par for the course for Terry's meta? Has he bashed his head really hard against the wall a lot since March of this year? Because if not, I definitely want him killed off. There's nothing he's posting that persuades me that he's genuinely scum-hunting or town-clearing this game, and his defense tactics and activity patterns since being called out coincide with pretty classic scum patterns too. He spends his time not seriously evaluating, but arguing to push votes one way or the other.
It's a better case than Grape. Grape has some moments, some question marks. Terry? Is just pure hellspawn this game, if you look at his record. Nobody here is actively defending Terry's behavior, if you'll notice. The most you see from people is questioning either the sufficiency of the case, asking about meta, or stating that they prefer grape for reason X (which includes a bunch of crappy role-analysis reasoning that anyone putting stock in should repeatedly moobwap themselves until they stop. It's 2018, don't rely on role analysis people). So if you're looking at wagon patterns between those two, the types of ways that people are deflecting from Terry might be worth looking at also. Nobody wants to stick their neck out for him in a big way, but there have been a number of people pushing a case against Grape that I think is far less compelling given his behavioral record in comparision to Terry.
You can spot redeeming things about Grape's play. Terry's? No one has a single positive thing to say about his playstyle this game. So aside from role analysis BS, why are we seriously entertaining Grape as a superior candidate for today's lynch? If we pick Grape, I think we're being led astray by either townies with poor methodology, or a scum team that wants us to ignore behavior in favor of role analysis to force mislynches.
If I'm interpreting the chart correctly, we're currently tied at 4 and 4 for Grape and Terry. I don't think I have the time for much of an update on my Terry case atm, though I understand that'd probably be helpful.
Is there a large segment of the playerbase that really feels this is par for the course for Terry's meta? Has he bashed his head really hard against the wall a lot since March of this year? Because if not, I definitely want him killed off. There's nothing he's posting that persuades me that he's genuinely scum-hunting or town-clearing this game, and his defense tactics and activity patterns since being called out coincide with pretty classic scum patterns too. He spends his time not seriously evaluating, but arguing to push votes one way or the other.
It's a better case than Grape. Grape has some moments, some question marks. Terry? Is just pure hellspawn this game, if you look at his record. Nobody here is actively defending Terry's behavior, if you'll notice. The most you see from people is questioning either the sufficiency of the case, asking about meta, or stating that they prefer grape for reason X (which includes a bunch of crappy role-analysis reasoning that anyone putting stock in should repeatedly moobwap themselves until they stop. It's 2018, don't rely on role analysis people). So if you're looking at wagon patterns between those two, the types of ways that people are deflecting from Terry might be worth looking at also. Nobody wants to stick their neck out for him in a big way, but there have been a number of people pushing a case against Grape that I think is far less compelling given his behavioral record in comparision to Terry.
You can spot redeeming things about Grape's play. Terry's? No one has a single positive thing to say about his playstyle this game. So aside from role analysis BS, why are we seriously entertaining Grape as a superior candidate for today's lynch? If we pick Grape, I think we're being led astray by either townies with poor methodology, or a scum team that wants us to ignore behavior in favor of role analysis to force mislynches.
Well I think that’s a legit slip. I just lost thunderdome with a slip in cops. They are real and I think vezo slipped that not only is grape town, but it implies he knows we are BOTH town. Do we just lynch grape anyways? I hope not. I hope it’s not me instead because that’s worse case right there.
...glad you explained that to me, because I never would have gotten there on my own. I...will be surprised if that's a legit slip. I could be wrong, I guess, but Vezok has just had a ton of town posts. Still not interested in lynching toDay.
Well I think that’s a legit slip. I just lost thunderdome with a slip in cops. They are real and I think vezo slipped that not only is grape town, but it implies he knows we are BOTH town. Do we just lynch grape anyways? I hope not. I hope it’s not me instead because that’s worse case right there.
Not a slip, plzdie, thx.
Town can be used to refer to either alignment, or each player in the game, and Vez is clearly using it in the latter sense. But way to seize onto that piece of driftwood to save your skin.
Well I think that’s a legit slip. I just lost thunderdome with a slip in cops. They are real and I think vezo slipped that not only is grape town, but it implies he knows we are BOTH town. Do we just lynch grape anyways? I hope not. I hope it’s not me instead because that’s worse case right there.
Not a slip, plzdie, thx.
Town can be used to refer to either alignment, or each player in the game, and Vez is clearly using it in the latter sense. But way to seize onto that piece of driftwood to save your skin.
Really? So when I say I’m town, I mean scum and when vezo says grape and me are town it means town. This is probably one of the worst things I’ve ever heard you say.
Guys, the word town can mean town or mafia...
Oh please Az. You know my town meta is reckless. You KNOW other people have said they don’t think I’m scum this game... or town but since it all means the same, how do you even know what is real anymore!? (#sarcasm). Az, if you are town get out of this tunnel. Your case is really wrong. I’ve done a lot this game and it’s BS that you are just ignoring it. I have really want to see what people is so town about vezo, because I’m not seeing it right now. I agree that I see glimmers of town in grape and that’s why I’m off his wagon and trying to push vezo. If it comes to me or grape you know what I have to do.
That group because they are all pushing me confidently without having concrete reasoning. They all are saying that have these reasons but despite reading there posts I can't figure out what their specific issues with me are.
@Highroller why the questions about how much of a breadcrumb my caring about card types was?
@Axel you mention preferring lynching a lurker (Dan or Bur) do you have a preference between the two?
@everyone who are you willing to lynch and who do you want to lynch?
50 has several elements that didn't feel right to me. The whole "I feel insulted and complimented" part is vague, he focuses on my being scum for suggesting a flavor claim in another game, despite that not being the point, and then the final comment was, as is pointed out later, easily confused as to what exactly is skeeving Grape out (oh, he says in 68 that this was intentional). His exploration of banned cards that would care about graveyards in 61 felt off to me the first time through, although it feels a little more natural upon reread. Naked vote on Terry when Terry only had three posts felt odd, but not horrible.
93 is one of the townier posts Grape's made. A refocus from someone else to himself is less likely to come from scum. Ah, and there's his rationale in 126 for voting Terry. "I think your vote was forced feeling and the mimicking of the joke you were supposedly finding over the top is a discrediting sort of thing I could see scum you doing." I don't see how you get that sufficiently from Terry's exceptionally brief third post. I don't think I believe that you believe your own reason, at least not to the point of making a serious vote.
Most of 188 sounds fine, but it felt strange for Grape to talk about KA and Terry together, identify something he thought was shady about KA, then identify something he found shady about Terry's attack on KA. It felt like Grape was trying to shade both of them, even though by nature if he thinks Terry is poorly attacking KA, he shouldn't think KA is likely scum.
A lot of the following posts where he argues with Rez seem pretty good. I can see his point of view, and he's arguing with logic. 291 reads as actual frustration, although that's not necessarily NAI.
I was strongly pinged by GF saying in 310 that he remembered someone saying they saw town indicators from Rez but GF not following up on that. Why wouldn't you be interested in what town indicators people saw in your scumspect?
352 was horrible because he took the deflection from his declared top scumspect (Rez) as an opportunity to join the more popular wagon (Terry) without even once questioning whether scum!Rez would bus buddy!Terry like that. (I find it highly unlikely, but that's not the point. The point is that it feels like Grape was just like "ok, person I suspect, you have a good point and I'll blindly follow you onto another player I suspect without really thinking about the relationship between the two of you.")
399 he essentially says he's suspicious of Rez and Terry because they're difficult to work with. Can't speak to Rez, but that's pretty much Terry's default regardless of alignment (no offense intended, Terry).
After claiming roleblocker, I don't buy his assertion in 412 that, as town, he chose Highroller for his pregame ability. The whole "he looks like a guy who enjoys Magic" argument makes nearly ZERO sense to me when Grape could have picked a player he is familiar with to more easily assess that player down the road. I also, as noted, don't believe that he actually thought Highroller would figure out that it was Grape who gave him the choice.
@Grape: Why do you feel like the conditional nature of your ability makes it more likely to be a town ability (434)?
As Dan pointed out, Grape's assertion in 440 that Dan has done less than Bur is pretty terrible shade.
531 is the culmination of Grape's assertion that the lack of counterclaim should point to him being more likely town, but he doesn't even acknowledge the idea that town might not have an interference role. Yes, in a role madness game, I would say it's likely that both town and scum have interference roles, but that doesn't mean that every role madness game will necessarily have them on both sides. This isn't necessarily scummy, though, as I could see the same post coming from Grape knowing that he's a town interference role.
EWP: @Grape: Ok, so I kept seeing that section of 68 as you responding to Bur's question of why you voted Terry, but it almost felt like you were defending Terry, but now I see that you just didn't respond to Dan's question.
Double EWP: And Grape's 552 feels like him feeling out CFD possibilities. +scum
On the plus side, hopefully Grape's still viewing the thread and can respond to the above soon.
I'll look at Terry next, but it may not be tonight. :/ How come the two players I need to review the most have the two highest post counts in the game?
I've been pointing how that you've been acting like mafia for almost the entire day now.
I mean, for goodness sakes, the repeated criticism I'm given for you is that you're trying to work backwards from a lynch vote on someone, looking to lynch someone as your primary priority and to provide adequate reasoning for that vote second. At this point, can you possibly deny this?
Because it's this thing you said out of nowhere that's completely baffling, and all the more so because vezok is agreeing with you for some inscrutable reason.
You said you thought you'd made it obvious you were the person whose ability resulted in my getting a PM because you said that your role cared about card types. I'm going to go ahead and guess that we all either have an ability that functions like a normal mafia stock role ability that's twisted in some way to fit the mechanics of this game (players have card names, card types, colors, there's a graveyard, etc.), have a role that's completely unique to this game, or both at the same time seeing as how I have more than one ability and I don't doubt there's at least one other person who does too.
So how is saying, "My role cares about card types and I wouldn't be surprised if scum roles did too," an obvious hint? Why is vezok saying something about me not only getting a breadcrumb, but getting the whole bread? Why would you say that? Not only would it not make sense to assume that caring about card type made your role unique - for all we know most of the roles in this game depend on card type - but more than that, you just said you assumed that other people, including the mafia, had abilities that depend on card type.
So why are you and vezok both saying that "My role cares about card types and I wouldn't be surprised if scum roles did too," makes it really obvious that you're the person whose ability resulted in my PM? How would anyone have sufficient information to presume this from that sentence?
It's completely contradictory. You can't say that you don't think we should claim anything about our roles because you have a role that cares about card types and you believe that others might, including the mafia, and then say that you thought that saying your role cares about card type should make it obvious that the message about an ability that cares about card types automatically points to yours. You just said there are probably others in this game!
KA
Cantrip
Az
[no order]
Iso, vezok, Highroller, Axelrod
[/no order]
rez
Terry, Grapefruit
g_d
Bur
dan's catchup post concerns me for reasons I've outlined. Bur has essentially no contribution and unlike dan, doesn't have a good reason for it. TBH both of those have more net problems than either Terry or Grape; however, they have zero momentum, and they will give us little in the way of interaction analysis on a flip. So {rez, terry, grape} is still the right set to be looking at today.
Townish bits bolded.
In sum, I feel like there's a maybe 40-50% spread on Grape being scum, definitely higher than average, definitely on our kill-list, but we could easily be wrong. For comparison, I'd rate a 70-80% on terry, and an 80% on Ganderin dan. Out of my bottom 5, he's been steadily rising towards the less urgently needing his head chopped off strata given a number of tells that just aren't quite the prototypical scum response to pressure, or where he's organically thinking through certain reads. Most of the recent things I dislike could probably be classified as logic issues, like him trying to push the highroller case initially a little too hard (which he backed off of), and his attempt to argue that not being counter-claimed should be a point in his favor.
But yeah, 270 in particular where he got excited to trade himself for Rez, KA, Bur, and Terry is a really interesting post I've been mulling over since he made it.
As for your assertion that I'm acting like mafia because I'm voting and providing reasoning after that's how I play as both alignments. It's why ISO scum reads me every game. Which is funny because it's inspired by him to some degree.
@Cantrip On post 50 I'm bad at jokes. I like trying to make them, but I'm decidedly unfunny. The insulted and complimented thing was the way everyone was talking about me in a position of authority on whether Vez should have claimed. I don't get your point on my bringing up you being scum in the other game. On Vez's talking about the flavor claim what was your reaction to it on reread. Ignoring my reaction for a second what did you think when you saw him mention it?
For 188 I've said a few times now I worry less about building teams on D1. I think KA's vote was scummy and should have been pushed, but I thhink the way Vez pushed him over it was even scummier than the vote. It's unlikely both are scum together but both were scummy. I'm not trying to build worlds on D1.
On my targeting Highroller your suspicions here make no sense to me. I don't understand why my stated reasoning is suspect to you (the man posts a ton on the forums and has a literal banned card as his avatar) and I don't get how it leads to a scum read. I am utterly baffled by why this matters to you. Especially since there isn't any doubt that it's happened.
On why the conditional nature points to me being town: having a full RB is much more likely to unbalance town than it is scum. Town often have watered down roles in games like these (limited shots are the most common trope) while scum are more likely to have fully powered roles. Not a hard and fast rule but a soft point towards my role being townie.
Work has been crazy but I think I answered all the direct questions.
I have a strong preference for Bur. Dan at least has a family excuse.
So, Terry, tell me something straight here. You keep saying things like this. A lot. Do you actually think this is an argument in your favor? Seriously. Or are you just trying to be funny here?
Like, I hate to be the one to ruin the joke by not getting it, but, if it's a joke I'm not getting it. And if it's not a joke, what is it?
----
hey terry, im not going to let up on this until you explain it
im still catching up/rereading but im seriously hating all these "so-and-so is town because they wouldnt do this as scum im so good at meta" reads.
We get a vote count in post #309, with Bur and Rezom each with two votes and a handful of other people at 1. In the next post, Grape states that his first choice of Lynch is Rezom and that he would settle for a Lynch on me or Kami.
In post #318, Kami jumps onto the Rezo wagon, with little to no reasoning.
Cantrip also jumps on the ISO led charge on Grape in post #325, expressing concern that no-one is pressuring Bur, who he was previously voting.
Vez comes in shortly after (#331) and pads the Rezom wagon with some really scummy logic:
"I think this is a reasonable lynch although I'm not convinced he is scum."
Cantrip requested deadline extensions several times and I think scum wants a no-lynch, so I'm pretty comfortable putting Cantrip in my town pile for awhile. His posting has been solid too.
Post #336 by Vezo sounds really buddy acting like he would bus.
Rezom's frustration really is starting to look town to me (see #337).
#345 by Grape is another really questionable post.
"I'd vote Terry here but before reading Azs wall I prefer lynching Rez."
Then he goes on the record in the next post saying that he read Az's wall on me and it was good. Just opening up that window to claim through onto my wagon. The problem is, Az's post on me wasn't good. He'd even ISOed me in reverse order (as Axel so kindly pointed out). Yeah, so BIG surprise, Grape votes me in #352.
The next interesting vote is from Kami on me in post #355. I immediately call him out on this for saying:
"vote Terry for deadline lynch, because if my math is right he's ahead of rezombied in votes."
First that's a terrible reason to vote someone. Second, IT WASN'T EVEN CORRECT!
Highroller (post #360) calls out Grape's vote in #352, which is interesting considering that he moves off Grapefruit onto me shortly after (#411 after Grape claims). Oh and says I'm a troll and town needs me like a hole in the head... BUT he's REALLY CONFIDENT GRAPE IS SCUM (see #381, also thanks for getting me a flaming warning Highroller)
I'd like to point out Kami's post #374, where he admits to fudging the numbers for his last reason he said he voted me for and then proceeds to say I'm flailing and later crap, like "You're not fighting for your life, bro. Unless a bunch of people show up out of nowhere and do something about it." He also says that him switching to Rezom isn't going to get him lynched as an excuse for voting me as well, but that's also completely made up. We were 3-3 when he went to me, which means that he doesn't care about numbers or play, he's just trying to Lynch me over Rezom because either he's buddies with Rezom OR he was sensing the tide turn on me and just wanting to get on board.
When I point out how Kami was fear mongering, you know who backs me up? Rezom. His post #379 does NOT feel like a scum post. I just don't see him doing that as scum period. I'm backing off my Rezom suspicion.
I switch to Grape from Rezom and Kami follows (#394). This vote skeeves me out, it's a bad vote, but it's from me to someone I still think is scum. This is where Highroller votes me and then Kami right after. All of Kami's votes have been super opportunistic like this whole game.
Rezom then goes to GF, then Vezo goes to GF (another chronically opportunistic voter)...
ANNNNNDDDDDD Deadline Extension. SCENE!
(I'll sort through this in a minute and try to make some sense of it)
Highroller doesn't compute to me. I can't figure him out. I'm suspicious, but I see town moments too.
i want receipts of me "transforming" his statements though. because i definitely didn't do that.
----
also i fixed this:
@Terry: I know your comment was intended rather tongue in cheek. I hope you see that my response was, too.
@Grape: As I intimated in #51, Vez's comment on my flavor claim made me raise an eyebrow ("Vez gets a town lean...but..."). I wasn't sure why he would post like I was seriously suggesting a flavor claim.
Can you speak to your 352? Do you think Rez and Terry are buddies? If not, how does your mindset in that post make sense?
With choosing Highroller, I'm just trying to put myself in town!you shoes. I know that's not an exact science of an exercise, but if I had a role that allowed another player to make that kind of choice, I'd want to target someone that I felt like I could read so that later, when their choice came to light, hopefully with some corroborating information (like one or two scum's card types), I'd be better equipped to figure out my target's possible choice motivations. That you'd choose someone who you had zero Mafia experience with seems odd to me. I'd also want to get that player's thoughts on what they were choosing (not specifics, but "I chose cards that I wanted good things to happen to" or "I chose cards that I felt would be less likely to be in the game" or somesuch) before I revealed what the choice did to help me gauge how they chose. This points, I feel, to the role being a scum role, as town wants to use it as a tool to help figure out their target (which is much more difficult to do when the target doesn't know what they're choosing), while scum is just happy messing with their target and gaining two card types to roleblock. I didn't see you trying to use it as a tool at all, so I think it's more likely you're scum.
I can see your point on it being restricted being more likely to be on town, I suppose. But the pre-game random nature I think points to scum (especially with no explanation of what the ability does). For example, if it's a town ability, you have an uninformed town who has to choose randomly among all other players. The recipient, without being told what the choice does, and with no way to find out or figure out before they make their choice, just chooses two card types. That feels like--at its base--just a randomization of an ability. If that's the case, why wouldn't Wuffles just give you a role that says "these two card types were randomly selected at the start of the game; if you target one of these card types with your ability, you roleblock that player"?
Conversely, if it's a scum ability, then all kinds of WIFOM and choices come into play. Before the game even begins, you have the opportunity to mess with a townie, possibly make yourself seem like a friend, someone who gave them a choice, someone who shares a secret with them. After you flip, unless your chosen target is obv!town, the town may mistakenly mislynch thinking you targeted scum, or if you targeted a buddy, maybe they give him town pants for being your target. The more I think about it, the more likely it seems that it's a scum role. I admit that I will sometimes fall into the modgaming/setupgaming trap, so by itself, I wouldn't see this alone as condemning, but in conjunction with the behavioral pings, I really think you're the best lynch for toDay.
"And even if I actually thought that my post would influence anyone, I'd still do it as any alignment"
You said:
"I don't care. "I do this every game" isn't really a valid argument to me right now."
It's really straight forward, which why I responded to you in the way I did, multiple times.
This completely misrepresents that exchange because the full quote is: (emphasis mine) "And even if I actually thought that my post would influence anyone, I'd still do it as any alignment as I have a strong history of suggesting different types of mass-claims early game even though almost the entire MTGS playerbase considers it a bad idea."
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm waiting for people in this game to realize that "my mafia game is the same as my town game" just means "you are never without basis for voting for me."
Honestly, I've been saying that for the vast majority of his posts.
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On the targeting, that makes sense. I didn't consider it as I was geeking out about gifts too much. Thinking about it now I think there is too much wine to draw information from the choice. Scum would know 3 cards and probably have a mix of types. The person on the receiving end doesn't have much context to work with. It would have been nice to grill highroller on why he chose before I revealed but I wasn't really in a position to do so the way the game played out.
@Highroller so you think I'm scum (in part) because I believe multiple roles would care about card types but was surprised you didn't guess I was the one who sent you the choice?
Cause I want to lynch someone and I think you grape is a more valuable member of the town.
Can we lynch someone please? I'd really like a dead body today.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
Can you speak to your 352? Do you think Rez and Terry are buddies? If not, how does your mindset in that post make sense?
And on asking Highroller about why he made his choice, I feel like there was opportunity to do so before you came under significant scrutiny and certainly before you got to claim range, but I don't see any movement from you to do so. You say you didn't even think about it...that surprises me if you're town, as I think you're a good player, and when presented with a tool, town generally tend to start thinking how best to use that tool. I mean, I geeked out a little about my card, too, but then I started figuring out ways to maximize its effectiveness.
Unvote, Vote: Vezo
I hope we have time to make this happen
Town People:(would be very surprised to find one one was scum)
Highroller
Vezokpiraka
Townish People:(historically, someone here is almost certainly scum)
Azrael (not dong anything overtly scummy. Very skilled. Will never trust)
Cantripmancer (kind of ditto)
KamikazeArchon (he had a kind of bad early vote practically during RVS, and since then mostly fine. Pretty conservative as far as the posting and opinions goes, but no real red flags for me. I do dislike his seeming willingness to lynch anyone and voting just for whoever had the most votes at deadline. But being around and active at the prior deadline was good.)
Grapefruit21 (this is not a horse I would bet my mafia life on, but has seemed mostly fine to me. Worst things may be the questionable claimed basis for picking Highroller as his target and questionable subsequent claim that he was trying to hint to Highroller about it).
No Opinion to Concerning People:
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry (his reads seem pretty bad to me, and his constant assertions that he's Town do not resonate. I recall JT making some seriously questionable plays last game we were in, so we have some fairly differing ideas on how to play)
Iso (doing his Iso thing, which I find scummy. Also, i don't especially like how he would give an opinion on someone (a weak opinion even) and then cast shade if the person didn't "respond" to him, even where he didn't ask the person any questions, but was just giving an opinion)
Rezombied (not making any kind of impression at all, which is concerning.)
Die People:
ganderin_dan (still more questions than analysis)
Bur (lurking scum)
In conclusion. I hate lurkers.
Yes, whole post.
I don't believe in writing things off as wine and not thinking them through. Not all cups of wine are equal. What's the person's propensity for using wine? Is it an elegant, organically crafted statement that contains pro-town thought elements unlikely to come from scum, or is it just "LOL I'M TOWN OBV", a la Terry. is the mindset they're representing believable for that person - does Grape seem like the type who would get excited about trading himself for scum?
Those are the kinds of things I'm puzzling over as far as his #270. Not nearly as simple as wine, therefore ignore.
@Axelrod: I'm a little confused as to why Rezombied, who has made multiple posts but hasn't made an impression on you, ranks higher than GanDan, who has made several posts with reads, analysis, and original thought (even if his questions outweigh those reads/analysis/etc) (AND he has a valid reason to lurk). (As an aside, no matter how you intended the "kind of ditto" after my entry in your list, I choose to interpret it as you comparing my play to Azreal, which I 100% take as a high compliment and will treasure always...unless of course you're just scumbuttering me up.)
I'm not terribly impressed with your list, although it's a little bit spicy to put Az high and Iso low, imo. We have two competing wagons right now, and one of them is in your "no opinion to concerning" pile, but you eschew that option to go after lurkers. With the obligatory rationale of "I hate lurkers."
I really wish this had come about 24 hours earlier, as I suddenly really want to CFD onto you, but I don't feel like we have time for that. Working on rereading Terry as we speak.
@Az: Ok, fair. The part that made me less inclined to see it as townish was that he listed FOUR other players. It felt less like town conviction/willingness to trade and more like scum sowing connections.
Why's vezok town?
Same. I'm disappointed Bur was not replaced.
Is there a large segment of the playerbase that really feels this is par for the course for Terry's meta? Has he bashed his head really hard against the wall a lot since March of this year? Because if not, I definitely want him killed off. There's nothing he's posting that persuades me that he's genuinely scum-hunting or town-clearing this game, and his defense tactics and activity patterns since being called out coincide with pretty classic scum patterns too. He spends his time not seriously evaluating, but arguing to push votes one way or the other.
It's a better case than Grape. Grape has some moments, some question marks. Terry? Is just pure hellspawn this game, if you look at his record. Nobody here is actively defending Terry's behavior, if you'll notice. The most you see from people is questioning either the sufficiency of the case, asking about meta, or stating that they prefer grape for reason X (which includes a bunch of crappy role-analysis reasoning that anyone putting stock in should repeatedly moobwap themselves until they stop. It's 2018, don't rely on role analysis people). So if you're looking at wagon patterns between those two, the types of ways that people are deflecting from Terry might be worth looking at also. Nobody wants to stick their neck out for him in a big way, but there have been a number of people pushing a case against Grape that I think is far less compelling given his behavioral record in comparision to Terry.
You can spot redeeming things about Grape's play. Terry's? No one has a single positive thing to say about his playstyle this game. So aside from role analysis BS, why are we seriously entertaining Grape as a superior candidate for today's lynch? If we pick Grape, I think we're being led astray by either townies with poor methodology, or a scum team that wants us to ignore behavior in favor of role analysis to force mislynches.
Not a slip, plzdie, thx.
Town can be used to refer to either alignment, or each player in the game, and Vez is clearly using it in the latter sense. But way to seize onto that piece of driftwood to save your skin.
Oh, well, since you say so then.
Guys, the word town can mean town or mafia...
Oh please Az. You know my town meta is reckless. You KNOW other people have said they don’t think I’m scum this game... or town but since it all means the same, how do you even know what is real anymore!? (#sarcasm). Az, if you are town get out of this tunnel. Your case is really wrong. I’ve done a lot this game and it’s BS that you are just ignoring it. I have really want to see what people is so town about vezo, because I’m not seeing it right now. I agree that I see glimmers of town in grape and that’s why I’m off his wagon and trying to push vezo. If it comes to me or grape you know what I have to do.
Terry
Bur
Axelrod
g_d
Dan has not voted anyone at all this game. Bur has been AWOL. Terry is doing something with vezok. Axelrod, what's your reason?