I’ve had no good very bad days at work so far and haven’t really thought about the game much at all to post.
I’d say lynch me because you have the kills to waste but I’m getting tired of getting ML’d on MTGS because I’m not as active or NOT AS CONVINCING as the people who have time to post blocks of words.
@Manasi: I am seriously thinking suggesting you for probation. You've put minimal time investment into this game and this happened in your last two games also. If you are getting tired of being mislynched because you don't post maybe you should start posting?
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I don't really get what you can do that a scum PR can do on a larger scale? that's got me confused
rest of your case is fine but v AtE v low WIM or intent to win
I'm not really sure what I'm meant to see as towny in these posts?
I don’t even think I’ve been super towny but at least tom’s argument is that if scum has a role that can delay ALL aight actions then it makes sense that they would also have a role that can delay ONE PERSON’S night actions.
@Manasi: I am seriously thinking suggesting you for probation. You've put minimal time investment into this game and this happened in your last two games also. If you are getting tired of being mislynched because you don't post maybe you should start posting?
I’m doing what I can buddy. Posting within the window before a prod, trying to help y’all figure out that I’m town. I’ve claimed and tried to explain that if this full night delay came from scum there’s no way that my role is scum. That being said, there’s no good place that I can even use my role anymore and to be honest I don’t even think it’s a good role to EVER use.
Do what you want re: the probation thing but these phases lend themselves to me actually being able to not pop in all that often and be active ITT every day. If you’re going to report that then play with shorter phases or something.
It's not really that I'm scumreading him, it's moreso my only reason for seeing him as town was his early claim, and since then, it's been fairly difficult to see his posts coming from town. Like, I asked why the Kill lynch felt bad, because he had a "FoS" on Kill earlier, and I didn't really see why the lynch would feel bad other than the average paranoia? So it sort of read as a faked ignorance of what Kill would flip. His answer doesn't really help either. Kill wasn't a lynch we settled for. He was suspected by a good many, and reasonably so (lurking, lied about what happened in the thread, non-responsive, etc.) Then his recent post - his comment on Kpaca/Manasi feels faked, as does his comment on Dias. He observed their behavior and came to no conclusion about it. Call it a gut read, or something. But it feels out of place. His reasoning for townreading Dias also feels off.
He also falls into that category of final scum laying low and relying on TvT to survive. It's no longer about what they say, it's how they play. His commentary has been fairly objective, which is to say moreso IIOA. He whiteknighted Mikey and Dias to a degree.
If anything, it's this fragment in particular that I find actually scummy:
Cool, glad I was wrong on how the NK was going to work. I'd take that as a town claim from Manasi (I can't think of a real reason why mafia would want to delay night actions in a setup this small, and what looks like a lot of unconventional roles), and the derphammer from Dias, while frustrating, is probably +town there as well. Could be a bus, but the way Dias defended themselves afterward doesn't read that way.
We've been assuming the wide-scale night delay has come from mafia?
Why would a derphammer make someone town?
These are the types of reasons mafia give on town - they're NAI and come from insider knowledge.
Actually,
vote: ganderin_dan
I'll do it now. Also @vez , you say dan fights to the end, no? Dan was L-1 at some point during this game. I'd say not automatically hammering yourself in that situation counts as "fighting to the end."
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When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
I'm going to be honest, I don't even know anymore what use the wide-scale delay has for mafia. It seems more townsided than anything.
When it comes to protection roles, they're twice as likely to be successful in stopping the night kill.
When it comes to investigative roles, they'll get results for two nights for a single player, and if they target two players, that 4 results total. That's pretty amazing.
I guess if Cantrip was still alive, the roleblock component of his ability would be stronger as well, and lack of a night kill leaves us with less information, but those two things seem to be the only downsides.
Think the reason I've been assuming it comes from mafia is because the text was red and no one's claimed it yet
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When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
The more I think about it the more I want to lynch dan.
I know why I want to. Why do you?
He needs solving. There is a possibility I'm wrong about albertino and ganderin really doesn't have to end up in LyLo. I'm not convinced on Manasi. That response to being wagoned seems townie enough. Grapefruit and kpaca never struck me as scum even though they lurked all game.
Gans role make a ton of sense as scum and very little as town. Why would town want to redirect stuff from a person to another? It messes with investigative roles and nullifies protection on the target. Seems much more probable it's a scum role.
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Alive:
1. KamikazeArchon - ???
2. vezokpiraka - 12 effects (normalizer, doctor, bodyguard, ???) (N1 target RE -> Dan)
3. tomsloger - Night talk (N1 the worst)
4. Grapefruit - ??? (N1 no use)
5. AlbertinoDias - bodyguard + 1-shot doctor (N1 no use)
6. ganderin_dan - Asceticizer (day-use) (N1 RE)
7. RE1031 - Tracker (N1 target Cantrip)
11. The Worst - ???
12. Manasi - Delayer (N1 no use)
Dead:
8. Killmatronix Demon of Insincerity, SCUM Hider Lynched Day 1 [+ post-death can still talk in scum chat]
9. Cantripmancer Senses Taker, SCUM Torturer Lynched Day 2 [day-use jailer + restricted chat]
10. Emcee_Mikey Gentleman Johnny Milo, TOWN Neighbourizer Nightkilled Night 1 [+ self-redirector]
@Manasi
Can you full claim? I want to know exactly what your ability does and how you use it (day use, night use? how many phases is it delayed? what would happen if you targeted Cantrip - would his day ability be affected or nah?)
@vez
Do you know for certain if Dan has targeted you? Were you told anything specifically or nah?
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When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
Come to think of it, the delay would be extremely useful in a MyLo situation, no?
Activate it the day of MyLo. Even if you mislynch, you'll have one more chance. A second chance to lynch is better than relying on scum to narrow down town.
(I mean, lack of claim though... Lack of claim...)
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When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
(I mean, lack of claim though... Lack of claim...)
Plus, if it is a town role, it seriously overlaps with Manasi's. Feel like they would have come out already because that'll be helpful info to have.
Also, Manasi. I agree with vez that your response is townie. But we also don't know if that ability of yours actually exists, and it'll be hard to prove given we'd need two nights to prove it, and in that time, night kills could interfere.
I do want to use mechanics to narrow down possibilities but the roles seem to be unique in that some have 2 fairly different abilities, so if scum has one of those, they could hide behind their more town-friendly ability claim and still use the scum-oriented one maliciously.
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Working on it. The metric of "my not self-hammering" is incredibly sketchy logic, considering it plays against both alignments' win conditions. Making the long post I'm brewing up is much more "fighting to the end" indicative. Manasi's response is very AtE.
I won't be doing Albertino or RE, for reference. I'm considering RE mechanically cleared.
I'm just gonna break it up, for all of our sakes, and in case I get lolhammered.
Kpaca: 44 refers to Manasi’s 34 being odd. And it was. Feels like saying something that didn’t need to be said.
58: I don’t really get why this question was being asked. I feel like Kpaca and Cantrip had to have played a game together by this point, but this didn’t really seem out of Cantrip’s norm, tonally. NAI, I wouldn’t think.
67: Attacking Mikey’s read on Tom. It was unfounded at the time, but Kpaca was ultimately adding to the chorus of people that ultimately were pressuring Mikey to be more specific on his reads. This is a very easy attack for scum to make to gain some slight towncred, but the tone/style of the post itself is Kpaca as either alignment. KA beat Kpaca to this type of criticism, so I’d think it’d be more likely to be a slight +town for KA as opposed to +scum for Kpaca.
69: Misunderstanding RE’s question. +town in a the strictest theory basis (townfolk shouldn’t answer questions addressed to other people) but NAI in practice here.
73: see 69.
137: Naked vote on Mikey. We need to go further here, and in reality, this is probably brutal over-analyzation, but it’s the only thing we can really work with that Kpaca!slot did.
Things between 73/137 regarding Mikey:
• RE thinks a Tom/Mikey scumteam is more likely that Cantrip/Mikey
• Worst agrees and votes, no new logic presented
• Mikey asks how worst is scumreading him. Worst facetiously responds. Mikey responds to RE with an answer that doesn’t really answer her questions “Tom was town there, so and his behavior is more likely to be town here, so town” without saying WHY Tom’s posting is towny
o RE presses for more info. Mikey continues to be vague. Vezok & KA press for more info. I /barn and press for more info. Mikey continues to be vague.
• Mikey gives manasi +town for 114, RE town for scumhunting and vezok scum for no reason, but offers no discussion on my post
o Tom presses, KA presses and disagrees
• “Nothing wrong with withholding reasoning until asked” I’ve said my piece here. While I disagree, NAI
• Mikey confesses all of his posts have come from his phone
So, the vote seems justified. Mikey looked to be avoiding questions and making passing claims that he couldn’t justify. Third on the wagon shouldn’t really generate any extra towncred.
Summary: Not much here, obv, but very minor pings in each direction. One could argue poor interactions with Mikey!slot and Cantrip (following the herd on attacks and cheap interaction with scumbuddy, respectively)
GF: 620/634: 2/3 correct reads on RE, GJ & Cantrip. Admits to likely being wrong about Tom.
635/641: Told us Kpaca didn’t submit an action, then justifies the easy Cantrip vote.
946-8: Provides reads. I’d like to know more about his Tom read re: Killma. Generally speaking, his reads align pretty tightly with mine, but he could go into more detail in to all of the reads.
960: Responds to Tom. I think he’s being transparent about his thought process there, as well as the response to The Worst. Asks legit questions to Manasi.
Verdict: Townier than Kpaca, and should be able to contribute enough to clarify his alignment Tomorrow. Probably not worth a lynch at this point.
@RE here's my main problem with a Manasi lynch: she's claimed the scummier half of the delays. At this stage we have to start considering the full night delay scummy since it hasn't been claimed but in a vacuum it's a really strong town role. Whereas Manasi's is basically just an RB which is NAI usually but a decent look if proven given Cantrips role.
I'll take a closer look without comparing it to behavior your spoiler text on Dan is persuasive. Arguing that he was white knighting mikey and dias a lot less so. But again must compare to the text.
I'll take a closer look without comparing it to behavior your spoiler text on Dan is persuasive. Arguing that he was white knighting mikey and dias a lot less so. But again must compare to the text.
Why not?
Do you agree with the reasoning he presented in labeling Dias as town? How about Manasi?
(I talked a little D1 why his read on Mikey bothered me. I left it alone because he had meta, but it still felt disconnected with the rest of the thread.)
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When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
My guess is the night delay is a scum role, but also 1-shot, and that scum has an additional regular use ability. That's basically worse case scenario.
Best case is it's the scum's only ability, but I kind of doubt that.
And yeah, the single-target delay seems to somewhat overlap with Cantrip's role.
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Working on it. The metric of "my not self-hammering" is incredibly sketchy logic, considering it plays against both alignments' win conditions. Making the long post I'm brewing up is much more "fighting to the end" indicative. Manasi's response is very AtE.
I brought it up because I recalled vez defending you based on the logic that you fight to the end as scum. Not using it as reason for you being scum but rather countering vez' logic.
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34: See Kpaca. Response in RVS was odd, felt like a forced response.
114: Vague reads. A post I’d expect from someone trying to catch up as either alignment, and a “scumhunting” method that is similar to mine. I understand why someone would scumread this, but besides Mikey and the RE/Dan spat, there wasn’t a whole lot else to comment about IMO.
172: In hindsight, pretty apt question to ask Cantrip, and soul read on Mikey? Mikey’s posting did look townier on page 3, but maybe that was a function of having a better medium to convey his information through. +town from this one, even if it read somewhat poorly at the time.
176: Explains sarcasm, mild shade onto RE. I think the sarcasm here was pretty evident.
237: I’m not sure what this means, looking back. Why not press me on it? Wouldn’t that sort things out? Weird pocket attempt(s)? @Manasi
396-399: Explains inactivity, few quick hits on Tom/myself/Worst/KA. I tend to take these stream-of-consciousness style posts as >rand town, depending on how genuine they appear to read. She’s live updating herself given the timing on the posts, which I think is less likely to come from scum with Daychat. I acknowledge that this could be fabricated, though, and I don’t really tend to think from that mindset. Giving this +town as well
463: Although she was right on Mikey, she kinda just recapped events and reiterated her read here. I don’t think the thought on Mikey was really sufficiently explained with this answer.
How does she know the Tom bit isn’t a game mechanic? Cantrip (seemed to be most familiar with flavor) seemed to imply the opposite. @GF? Shade on Vezok without real explanation (implications are fairly clear, though).
The Cantrip interaction doesn’t really do much for me there. Hypotheticals and recapping existing events don’t really go any further to explain her mindset beyond just defending some pretty low-level mafia theory here (although that part is factually correct).
Dislike’s tom’s vote, which I think is justifiable. Votes Vezok, which follows from the earlier logic, which I’ll repeat felt poor. +scum for this post on the overall
467/9: Fairly weak questions to RE. I think that anyone could’ve answered either of those. Perhaps this was genuine clarification, but it strikes me as having not read the thread thoroughly enough (pot, kettle, I know).
Aside: Killma’s claim in 488 is probably +town for Albert
491: I… guess. Very unlikely that they are partners, agreed.
601: Asks Tom a question (which I don’t believe ever got answered) in response to what could be a fairly accurate read out of him. Quick hits on Vez/Tom/Dan/Worst, with some unique thoughts to go alongside. Slightly +town here, that’s what I’d expect my driveby post to be looking like as a townie.
604: Thinks Albert’s push isn’t real. Given how Albert responded later in the thread regarding Vezok scumreading the slot, and not him, this looks pretty good in hindsight. +town
607: I don’t think anyone was arguing here, but still more work than she needed to put in. +town
608: This, OTOH, feels like a pretty big reach. Some hypocracy for calling out sarcasm while having her own sarcasm misread, to top things off. Definitely not unheard of for new replacements to have their own little RVS. +scum
621: Good point on Mikey as either alignment, but if scum, that’s easy cred to go “earn.” Does point out an inconsistency from Cantrip before RE claims the track, which reads well. Something here pings me as a potential scum/scum interaction, but I can’t quite put my finger on what. Still gonna say net +scum at this point.
622: Not sure “this early” is a thing on Day 2 with lynched scum. Minor +scum
624,5,7,33: One-line posts, but 25 has a good point on it. I dislike overreactions in general. +scum 624, +town 625, probably net +town given activity and tone.
696, 707: Factual statement.
709: Pretty lame (obvious answers are obvious) question here. This seems like a more potential s/s interaction (interaction for interaction’s sake), but that obviously can’t be the case.
729, 772, 802: Claim-related activities. Having not used the ability yet feels incredibly awkward from a town point of view, especially with other delaying abilities in play.
831: This doesn’t read a genuine indignation. Perhaps some of that is coming through/fueled by the forced inactivity, however. Annoyance at Tom’s (pretty logical conclusion) could read either way. My gut wants to say this is +scum, but my brain says this post is NAI.
838: Naked vote after saying she wants to townread me for most of the game. +scum, but L-1 matters a good bit less when there’s only one Mafioso left.
953-6: Anger about being lynched. Breaking this down:
Came back to see a wagon, frustration which, again, should be NAI (potentially scum caught for the wrong reasons, trying to present her claim as townie when voluntarily coming forward before being at L-2)
Setupgaming (those two statements do not coexist logically)
Outlining obvious line of play
Negative connotation “at best” (doesn’t really demonstrate attempting to see the other alignment’s mindset)
Didn’t read setup, which is minor +town
----------------Does my being at L-1 bode well for my being town or scum? Legit unsure
AtE
AtE
Very large net +scum here, between the setupgaming, AtE and saying the worst's best case scenario was still a bad post.
962: Why not?
963: NAI
964: This is a borderline OMGUS, but the logic here, albeit wrong, strikes me more as frustrated town than scum. But I know I have faked that before.
Those last 3 posts also seem like she could be trying to replicate Mikey’s frustration as well. For whatever reason (perhaps confirmation bias), his felt more believable than hers. Perhaps the replacement had something to do with it (I always point to Kraj way back in WoW for my basis here).
Verdict: Polarizing data points in both directions, but I don’t know why scum!Manasi would paint herself into this corner with her claim. OTOH, if the scum isn’t in her/GF, my worldview shatters.
Self-reminder to come back to 621. @GF, Manasi, there are things the two of you in particular could respond to in that spoiler. That's all for today, TTFN
I brought it up because I recalled vez defending you based on the logic that you fight to the end as scum. Not using it as reason for you being scum but rather countering vez' logic.
I don't really get what you can do that a scum PR can do on a larger scale? that's got me confused
rest of your case is fine but v AtE v low WIM or intent to win
I'm not really sure what I'm meant to see as towny in these posts?
I don’t even think I’ve been super towny but at least tom’s argument is that if scum has a role that can delay ALL aight actions then it makes sense that they would also have a role that can delay ONE PERSON’S night actions.
Newsflash: that ACTUALLY MAKES NO SENSE
Thread wide strange effect doesn't feel all that targeted to me. probably a bastard role and I see no reason to think it's lock scum.
I guess you could be a wolf with 1shot thread delay ungated targeted delay but eh
This angle doesn't really stir my interest a whole lot sorry. How should I be reading you/what should I be looking for?
@Dan I'm not sure why you're specifically asking me why Manasi specifically thought it wasn't a gimmick. There is a character in the novel who speaks all in caps. Before the Worst had to join in all caps during the night thread I'd think assuming tom was gimmicking was a fair assumption because tom is a known gimmicker. If Cantrip implied the opposite I'm just going to keep heaping on the tinfoil. No reason to assume a known gimmicker wasn't gimmicking even with the flavor knowledge that Dynne (and Dr. Dischord) could be characters who make sense to speak in all caps.
I'll take a closer look without comparing it to behavior your spoiler text on Dan is persuasive. Arguing that he was white knighting mikey and dias a lot less so. But again must compare to the text.
Why not?
Do you agree with the reasoning he presented in labeling Dias as town? How about Manasi?
(I talked a little D1 why his read on Mikey bothered me. I left it alone because he had meta, but it still felt disconnected with the rest of the thread.)
About to go take a look at the Mikey stuff but Dias is screaming town trying to use mechanics but not fully graspinig the mechanical implications of things to solve. Vez reads in a very similar way to me. So town reading Dias is a positive to me (unless it came after the tide had started turning on Dias). Same idea with Mikey but less confidence because it was longer ago and less etched in my memory.
My guess is the night delay is a scum role, but also 1-shot, and that scum has an additional regular use ability. That's basically worse case scenario.
Best case is it's the scum's only ability, but I kind of doubt that.
And yeah, the single-target delay seems to somewhat overlap with Cantrip's role.
And they all overlap with each other. And also to some extent Manasi's is included in that overlap and I'd guess Vez has at least one mode that also overlaps. But the night delay feels really townie to me. A bit like the night skip role Osie had in playstation mafia, weaker and not as obviously townie, but it's a NK delay and doesn't actually prevent any town ability from firing. Just delays them. And makes several (like yours) more powerful. I actually struggle to see much benefit to it for scum. Compare it to the night action randomizer from Pirates which was a scum role. It denied information and didn't delay the NK giving town an extra day with an extra body. If it wasn't for Manasi's claim I'd be just about all in on the night action delay being town. 2 quasi RB's and an complete night action delay feels like a bit much even for a clearly heavily powered mini.
After that I either like or am okay with everything he does. Those first 5 posts are scumtastic, but everything else is fine. And the role before normalizing seems vaugely +town and moderately +town post normalize. The lack of hitting NK's is NAI but would be much townier if it did obviously. The aforementioned FOS doesn't read horribly given the context of a day firing ability. His defense of Killma is still bad and the reluctance to lynch him looks real, but I don't buy the FOS as a smoking gun.
I don't love that 577 doesn't really seem to factor in the wagons for changing reads. Not damning on it's own but not a great look.
I really like his two big spoilered posts but I'm a sucker for that sort of stuff. So I probably shouldn't hard defend him based on them. They just feel real. And there are some good points especially in the one on Manasi. Particularly:
624,5,7,33: One-line posts, but 25 has a good point on it. I dislike overreactions in general. +scum 624, +town 625, probably net +town given activity and tone.
831: This doesn’t read a genuine indignation. Perhaps some of that is coming through/fueled by the forced inactivity, however. Annoyance at Tom’s (pretty logical conclusion) could read either way. My gut wants to say this is +scum, but my brain says this post is NAI.
838: Naked vote after saying she wants to townread me for most of the game. +scum, but L-1 matters a good bit less when there’s only one Mafioso left.
The final point in reply to 964 isn't as good and feels a bit flag plant-y but I really like the above points.
Quote from dan »
964: This is a borderline OMGUS, but the logic here, albeit wrong, strikes me more as frustrated town than scum. But I know I have faked that before.
Those last 3 posts also seem like she could be trying to replicate Mikey’s frustration as well. For whatever reason (perhaps confirmation bias), his felt more believable than hers. Perhaps the replacement had something to do with it (I always point to Kraj way back in WoW for my basis here).
Verdict: Wouldn't mind lynching Dan. His early game was so buddy/buddy with Killma and to a lesser degree Cantrip he probably has to be lynched at some point but not sold on his scumminess after that. Plus a roughly + town role.
well, i don't really know what to do now, even after reading, i reach no conclusion, i'm scum reading ppl that others won't lynch, and the only lynch i would kinda be ok with, i'm like that cuz of mechanics, which doesn't sound excellent...
manasi?, idk, grape?, i like him.
but let's shade, since vez supposedly has 2 shots that are the same as mine, couldn't he have a shot to delay things?? like, him being the delayer??
just leaving this out there *whistles*
Like the worst already said Vez has a confirmed ability usage on N1 (normalizing Dan). There is literally far less overlap between your (you and Vezok) roles than between tom/Cantrip/GJ and Manasi/Unknown/Cantrip.
Cantrip has a lot of mentions of Dan in his early posts but they don't scream w/w. For example this one is setting him up for town cred in a scenario Cantrip knows won't happen.
However, I'm liking Mikey a lot less now. That claim felt intentionally vague, and 287 and 288 feel like nervous scum ramblings. I'd vote him if he wasn't at L-2. If Mikey flips scum, I'll feel a lot better about Gan_Dan, and ReverseRoot will be pretty solidly town.
Random aside Cantrip totally reads as super townie to me in his back and forth with Mikey over Mikey's claim.
In this read wall tom seems inordaniately high for Cantrip's previously expressed feelings on him:
Town
RE1031
Gan_Dan
Tom
The Worst
ReverseRoot (more likely town if Mikey scum)
vezokpiraka
kpaca
Killmatronix
Manasi
Kami
Mikey
Scum
EWP: Um...there are definitely games where the "main" character of the source material is scum. Not sure why you think that's such a slam dunk.
Killma seems a bit low. Dan is a bit high but makes sense in his fake scum!mikey spews Dan town world. Manasi more likely than KA to be scum based on this (my slot more than KA too).
Dias is now getting that fake town cred he was giving to Dan earlier which I'm squinting at but unsure what to make of it.
And here is Cantrip's last post before entering full anti-spew. Well a snipped version of it to focus on another read wall. It's possible he was guessing RE had a guilty on him and was already anti-spewing but I'm still going to try and read into it.
Quote from Cantrip »
I originally felt like Dan was town for making it clear that he had a Day ability, as I think Day abilities are less likely to be on scum (because they're less blockable. I still feel like the way he went about that whole process is more town than scum, even if the lightning rod doesn't include kills. If RE had died, I'd be all over Dan, but I feel like Dan was, in essence, making RE a less viable target. Again, I could see scum!Dan doing that to make it more likely that RE was available for a kill, but if that were the case, why not kill RE? Why go out of his way to highlight "hey I'm targeting a town role. During the Day, none the less"?
I liked The Worst's night posts with Tom. I don't think he's scum unless he's scum with Tom.
I see a few people drive-by shading me, but not asking any questions or giving specifics. No questions, no responses.
Currently at:
Town
RE
Vezok
Dan
Tom
The Worst
Kpaca
Albertino
Kami
Manasi
Scum
Albertino's posts thus far have felt bland and vague. Not a fan.
Kami's interaction analysis feels like "hey, look at me helping" busywork. As Tom mentioned, Kami's conclusions feel pretty shallow.
Manasi's 601, especially, pings me several times. Pats herself on the back for being right about Mikey, celebrates the scumwagon and says she'd have joined if she had the chance, and takes a moment to establish an out for not reading Tom. I still don't like 114, either. 399's vote on Tom feels forced, especially when she barely commented on the Mikey/Vezok drama that was playing out. And then in 463, after quoting a vote by Tom (who she's voting) and saying she doesn't like it, she switches her vote to Vezok, apparently on the strength of liking Mikey's claim over Vezok's claim...when the two weren't in conflict. @Manasi am I reading that vote correctly?
Vote Manasi
Looking forward to hearing something from the kpaca slot.
The part about the worst continues to fuel my tom is scum here paranoia.
His read on Dan doesn't scream something he'd say to try and clear a buddy. It's worrisome the way he discarded the Dan is townie for Mikey being scummy read and didn't reevaluate, but the role part screams I'm town reading this guy because the way he used his role tricked us into not NK'ing RE.
Feels like an odd time to start bussing Manasi too though.
No real obvious takeaways from Cantrip's ISO unfortunately.
I'm not reading back and I don't plan to. I haven't been the towniest person in the game but I'm town and if I'm not town my claim is incredibly stupid. Good thing for y'all to know is despite my winrate in general games, I've been playing this for a long time but I'm still ******* bad at making up claims/claiming things/coming up with a reason to ever claim.
I think we need to pressure kpaca or just lynch him because if you lose to not lynching a 0 poster y'all are gonna feel really ******* bad. I don't think it gets to that point but lol lynching villagers that actually have some opinions itg and not lynching an ACTUALLY COMPLETELY DISENGAGED PLAYER.
I think that Grapefruit's analysis on this page is good and I don't want to lynch there.
I have dan's post open in another tab and I'll read it eventually. Soon. I hope.
I think we need to pressure kpaca or just lynch him because if you lose to not lynching a 0 poster y'all are gonna feel really ******* bad. I don't think it gets to that point but lol lynching villagers that actually have some opinions itg and not lynching an ACTUALLY COMPLETELY DISENGAGED PLAYER.
I think that Grapefruit's analysis on this page is good and I don't want to lynch there.
I have dan's post open in another tab and I'll read it eventually. Soon. I hope.
I think that his pushes are okay but I'm really not sure about his read on Dan. I think half of Cantrip's posts are really good and half are like, super filler, so @Cantrip, what are you getting out of all of the questions you've been asking (in terms of offsite phases and stuff)? I'm inclined to just call him tonw but I feel like some of those questions sound like scum trying to reach out and interact with everyone for ??? reasons. Only reason I want some verification there.
If Kami scum read me before they responded to that other post about me, I missed that. Good scum read off of three posts. Maybe it was just a lean given the detachment but either way it kinda pinged me when I was reading back. Will look there later if I ever remember but probably won't.
Emcee Mikey or whatever is a pretty solid villager imo. Good start, Manasi.
AMA.
The red text is mine and feels like a trial balloon. "Can I get away with town reading this guy off effort?"
This on the other hand feels completely agendaless.
I have nothing analytical to read into wrt Manasi. It's all really tonal stuff and that's more in the eye of the beholder than something to wall about. I came out at about null.
Onto the tom handling of Killma I was talking about and asked about by Dan.
Sorry, I've been feeling extremely unmotivated the past week. Recently just completed a wolf game so maybe I'll actually do some solving tomorrow.
(Also, no one answered my question regarding who Cantrip might have targeted...)
I’m a town PR that’s useless given there’s a scum PR that does the same ***** on a larger scale.
I’m going to target whoever I think is mafia (rn leaning towards Dan/TW).
Think TW jumping on the push from Tom is opportunistic at best and not towny.
Or are we thinking only one mafia left
I’d say lynch me because you have the kills to waste but I’m getting tired of getting ML’d on MTGS because I’m not as active or NOT AS CONVINCING as the people who have time to post blocks of words.
I’d throw my vote there but I’m scared of someone OMGUSing and putting me at L-1
rest of your case is fine but v AtE v low WIM or intent to win
I'm not really sure what I'm meant to see as towny in these posts?
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This does nothing to convince me it wasn't theater. I know you should be clear but I can't stop suspecting you.
@The Worst it's just me actually playing. I'm not good at scamming but I'm better than you saw.
@Manasi there is almost certainly only 1 scum left. Work being crap sucks. I've been dealing with that too recently. Hope it's getting better.
Talk to me more about why Worst is scummy for the push? I can kind of see it but the way he talked to Albertino felt townie.
Why is Dan scummy? Actually I want everyone to answer that question. Why is Dan scum here?
Haven't done the closer reading I wanted to and it's bed time. Will do some at work in the morning.
Do people never ******* read the rules?
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I don’t even think I’ve been super towny but at least tom’s argument is that if scum has a role that can delay ALL aight actions then it makes sense that they would also have a role that can delay ONE PERSON’S night actions.
Newsflash: that ACTUALLY MAKES NO SENSE
I’m doing what I can buddy. Posting within the window before a prod, trying to help y’all figure out that I’m town. I’ve claimed and tried to explain that if this full night delay came from scum there’s no way that my role is scum. That being said, there’s no good place that I can even use my role anymore and to be honest I don’t even think it’s a good role to EVER use.
Do what you want re: the probation thing but these phases lend themselves to me actually being able to not pop in all that often and be active ITT every day. If you’re going to report that then play with shorter phases or something.
Like it’d be fine if this even made any ******* sense as a fake claim THAT would be more reasonable but lordy
vote: kpaca
Kept pretending to make an effort to catch up and play and did less than I have. Glgl.
If anything, it's this fragment in particular that I find actually scummy: We've been assuming the wide-scale night delay has come from mafia?
Why would a derphammer make someone town?
These are the types of reasons mafia give on town - they're NAI and come from insider knowledge.
Actually,
vote: ganderin_dan
I'll do it now. Also @vez , you say dan fights to the end, no? Dan was L-1 at some point during this game. I'd say not automatically hammering yourself in that situation counts as "fighting to the end."
Actually
vote dan
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When it comes to protection roles, they're twice as likely to be successful in stopping the night kill.
When it comes to investigative roles, they'll get results for two nights for a single player, and if they target two players, that 4 results total. That's pretty amazing.
I guess if Cantrip was still alive, the roleblock component of his ability would be stronger as well, and lack of a night kill leaves us with less information, but those two things seem to be the only downsides.
Think the reason I've been assuming it comes from mafia is because the text was red and no one's claimed it yet
He needs solving. There is a possibility I'm wrong about albertino and ganderin really doesn't have to end up in LyLo. I'm not convinced on Manasi. That response to being wagoned seems townie enough. Grapefruit and kpaca never struck me as scum even though they lurked all game.
Gans role make a ton of sense as scum and very little as town. Why would town want to redirect stuff from a person to another? It messes with investigative roles and nullifies protection on the target. Seems much more probable it's a scum role.
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1. KamikazeArchon - ???
2. vezokpiraka - 12 effects (normalizer, doctor, bodyguard, ???) (N1 target RE -> Dan)
3. tomsloger - Night talk (N1 the worst)
4. Grapefruit - ??? (N1 no use)
5. AlbertinoDias - bodyguard + 1-shot doctor (N1 no use)
6. ganderin_dan - Asceticizer (day-use) (N1 RE)
7. RE1031 - Tracker (N1 target Cantrip)
11. The Worst - ???
12. Manasi - Delayer (N1 no use)
Dead:
8. Killmatronix Demon of Insincerity, SCUM Hider Lynched Day 1 [+ post-death can still talk in scum chat]
9. Cantripmancer Senses Taker, SCUM Torturer Lynched Day 2 [day-use jailer + restricted chat]
10. Emcee_Mikey Gentleman Johnny Milo, TOWN Neighbourizer Nightkilled Night 1 [+ self-redirector]
@Manasi
Can you full claim? I want to know exactly what your ability does and how you use it (day use, night use? how many phases is it delayed? what would happen if you targeted Cantrip - would his day ability be affected or nah?)
@vez
Do you know for certain if Dan has targeted you? Were you told anything specifically or nah?
Activate it the day of MyLo. Even if you mislynch, you'll have one more chance. A second chance to lynch is better than relying on scum to narrow down town.
(I mean, lack of claim though... Lack of claim...)
Also, Manasi. I agree with vez that your response is townie. But we also don't know if that ability of yours actually exists, and it'll be hard to prove given we'd need two nights to prove it, and in that time, night kills could interfere.
I do want to use mechanics to narrow down possibilities but the roles seem to be unique in that some have 2 fairly different abilities, so if scum has one of those, they could hide behind their more town-friendly ability claim and still use the scum-oriented one maliciously.
VOTE: DAN
IS FINE TOO
I won't be doing Albertino or RE, for reference. I'm considering RE mechanically cleared.
58: I don’t really get why this question was being asked. I feel like Kpaca and Cantrip had to have played a game together by this point, but this didn’t really seem out of Cantrip’s norm, tonally. NAI, I wouldn’t think.
67: Attacking Mikey’s read on Tom. It was unfounded at the time, but Kpaca was ultimately adding to the chorus of people that ultimately were pressuring Mikey to be more specific on his reads. This is a very easy attack for scum to make to gain some slight towncred, but the tone/style of the post itself is Kpaca as either alignment. KA beat Kpaca to this type of criticism, so I’d think it’d be more likely to be a slight +town for KA as opposed to +scum for Kpaca.
69: Misunderstanding RE’s question. +town in a the strictest theory basis (townfolk shouldn’t answer questions addressed to other people) but NAI in practice here.
73: see 69.
137: Naked vote on Mikey. We need to go further here, and in reality, this is probably brutal over-analyzation, but it’s the only thing we can really work with that Kpaca!slot did.
Things between 73/137 regarding Mikey:
• RE thinks a Tom/Mikey scumteam is more likely that Cantrip/Mikey
• Worst agrees and votes, no new logic presented
• Mikey asks how worst is scumreading him. Worst facetiously responds. Mikey responds to RE with an answer that doesn’t really answer her questions “Tom was town there, so and his behavior is more likely to be town here, so town” without saying WHY Tom’s posting is towny
o RE presses for more info. Mikey continues to be vague. Vezok & KA press for more info. I /barn and press for more info. Mikey continues to be vague.
• Mikey gives manasi +town for 114, RE town for scumhunting and vezok scum for no reason, but offers no discussion on my post
o Tom presses, KA presses and disagrees
• “Nothing wrong with withholding reasoning until asked” I’ve said my piece here. While I disagree, NAI
• Mikey confesses all of his posts have come from his phone
So, the vote seems justified. Mikey looked to be avoiding questions and making passing claims that he couldn’t justify. Third on the wagon shouldn’t really generate any extra towncred.
Summary: Not much here, obv, but very minor pings in each direction. One could argue poor interactions with Mikey!slot and Cantrip (following the herd on attacks and cheap interaction with scumbuddy, respectively)
GF: 620/634: 2/3 correct reads on RE, GJ & Cantrip. Admits to likely being wrong about Tom.
635/641: Told us Kpaca didn’t submit an action, then justifies the easy Cantrip vote.
946-8: Provides reads. I’d like to know more about his Tom read re: Killma. Generally speaking, his reads align pretty tightly with mine, but he could go into more detail in to all of the reads.
960: Responds to Tom. I think he’s being transparent about his thought process there, as well as the response to The Worst. Asks legit questions to Manasi.
@RE here's my main problem with a Manasi lynch: she's claimed the scummier half of the delays. At this stage we have to start considering the full night delay scummy since it hasn't been claimed but in a vacuum it's a really strong town role. Whereas Manasi's is basically just an RB which is NAI usually but a decent look if proven given Cantrips role.
I'll take a closer look without comparing it to behavior your spoiler text on Dan is persuasive. Arguing that he was white knighting mikey and dias a lot less so. But again must compare to the text.
Do you agree with the reasoning he presented in labeling Dias as town? How about Manasi?
(I talked a little D1 why his read on Mikey bothered me. I left it alone because he had meta, but it still felt disconnected with the rest of the thread.)
Best case is it's the scum's only ability, but I kind of doubt that.
And yeah, the single-target delay seems to somewhat overlap with Cantrip's role.
114: Vague reads. A post I’d expect from someone trying to catch up as either alignment, and a “scumhunting” method that is similar to mine. I understand why someone would scumread this, but besides Mikey and the RE/Dan spat, there wasn’t a whole lot else to comment about IMO.
172: In hindsight, pretty apt question to ask Cantrip, and soul read on Mikey? Mikey’s posting did look townier on page 3, but maybe that was a function of having a better medium to convey his information through. +town from this one, even if it read somewhat poorly at the time.
176: Explains sarcasm, mild shade onto RE. I think the sarcasm here was pretty evident.
237: I’m not sure what this means, looking back. Why not press me on it? Wouldn’t that sort things out? Weird pocket attempt(s)? @Manasi
396-399: Explains inactivity, few quick hits on Tom/myself/Worst/KA. I tend to take these stream-of-consciousness style posts as >rand town, depending on how genuine they appear to read. She’s live updating herself given the timing on the posts, which I think is less likely to come from scum with Daychat. I acknowledge that this could be fabricated, though, and I don’t really tend to think from that mindset. Giving this +town as well
463: Although she was right on Mikey, she kinda just recapped events and reiterated her read here. I don’t think the thought on Mikey was really sufficiently explained with this answer.
How does she know the Tom bit isn’t a game mechanic? Cantrip (seemed to be most familiar with flavor) seemed to imply the opposite. @GF? Shade on Vezok without real explanation (implications are fairly clear, though).
The Cantrip interaction doesn’t really do much for me there. Hypotheticals and recapping existing events don’t really go any further to explain her mindset beyond just defending some pretty low-level mafia theory here (although that part is factually correct).
Dislike’s tom’s vote, which I think is justifiable. Votes Vezok, which follows from the earlier logic, which I’ll repeat felt poor. +scum for this post on the overall
467/9: Fairly weak questions to RE. I think that anyone could’ve answered either of those. Perhaps this was genuine clarification, but it strikes me as having not read the thread thoroughly enough (pot, kettle, I know).
Aside: Killma’s claim in 488 is probably +town for Albert
491: I… guess. Very unlikely that they are partners, agreed.
601: Asks Tom a question (which I don’t believe ever got answered) in response to what could be a fairly accurate read out of him. Quick hits on Vez/Tom/Dan/Worst, with some unique thoughts to go alongside. Slightly +town here, that’s what I’d expect my driveby post to be looking like as a townie.
604: Thinks Albert’s push isn’t real. Given how Albert responded later in the thread regarding Vezok scumreading the slot, and not him, this looks pretty good in hindsight. +town
607: I don’t think anyone was arguing here, but still more work than she needed to put in. +town
608: This, OTOH, feels like a pretty big reach. Some hypocracy for calling out sarcasm while having her own sarcasm misread, to top things off. Definitely not unheard of for new replacements to have their own little RVS. +scum
621: Good point on Mikey as either alignment, but if scum, that’s easy cred to go “earn.” Does point out an inconsistency from Cantrip before RE claims the track, which reads well. Something here pings me as a potential scum/scum interaction, but I can’t quite put my finger on what. Still gonna say net +scum at this point.
622: Not sure “this early” is a thing on Day 2 with lynched scum. Minor +scum
624,5,7,33: One-line posts, but 25 has a good point on it. I dislike overreactions in general. +scum 624, +town 625, probably net +town given activity and tone.
696, 707: Factual statement.
709: Pretty lame (obvious answers are obvious) question here. This seems like a more potential s/s interaction (interaction for interaction’s sake), but that obviously can’t be the case.
729, 772, 802: Claim-related activities. Having not used the ability yet feels incredibly awkward from a town point of view, especially with other delaying abilities in play.
831: This doesn’t read a genuine indignation. Perhaps some of that is coming through/fueled by the forced inactivity, however. Annoyance at Tom’s (pretty logical conclusion) could read either way. My gut wants to say this is +scum, but my brain says this post is NAI.
838: Naked vote after saying she wants to townread me for most of the game. +scum, but L-1 matters a good bit less when there’s only one Mafioso left.
953-6: Anger about being lynched. Breaking this down:
962: Why not?
963: NAI
964: This is a borderline OMGUS, but the logic here, albeit wrong, strikes me more as frustrated town than scum. But I know I have faked that before.
Those last 3 posts also seem like she could be trying to replicate Mikey’s frustration as well. For whatever reason (perhaps confirmation bias), his felt more believable than hers. Perhaps the replacement had something to do with it (I always point to Kraj way back in WoW for my basis here).
Self-reminder to come back to 621. @GF, Manasi, there are things the two of you in particular could respond to in that spoiler. That's all for today, TTFN
Thread wide strange effect doesn't feel all that targeted to me. probably a bastard role and I see no reason to think it's lock scum.
I guess you could be a wolf with 1shot thread delay ungated targeted delay but eh
This angle doesn't really stir my interest a whole lot sorry. How should I be reading you/what should I be looking for?
About to go take a look at the Mikey stuff but Dias is screaming town trying to use mechanics but not fully graspinig the mechanical implications of things to solve. Vez reads in a very similar way to me. So town reading Dias is a positive to me (unless it came after the tide had started turning on Dias). Same idea with Mikey but less confidence because it was longer ago and less etched in my memory.
And they all overlap with each other. And also to some extent Manasi's is included in that overlap and I'd guess Vez has at least one mode that also overlaps. But the night delay feels really townie to me. A bit like the night skip role Osie had in playstation mafia, weaker and not as obviously townie, but it's a NK delay and doesn't actually prevent any town ability from firing. Just delays them. And makes several (like yours) more powerful. I actually struggle to see much benefit to it for scum. Compare it to the night action randomizer from Pirates which was a scum role. It denied information and didn't delay the NK giving town an extra day with an extra body. If it wasn't for Manasi's claim I'd be just about all in on the night action delay being town. 2 quasi RB's and an complete night action delay feels like a bit much even for a clearly heavily powered mini.
can we just powerlynch the next person to make a wonky mechanical assumption?
Okay this and his calling Killma Sentenza-esque is a bad look. Praising two scum in his frist 5 posts and one of them being collecting everything good people had to say about one of them feels leaky.
After that I either like or am okay with everything he does. Those first 5 posts are scumtastic, but everything else is fine. And the role before normalizing seems vaugely +town and moderately +town post normalize. The lack of hitting NK's is NAI but would be much townier if it did obviously. The aforementioned FOS doesn't read horribly given the context of a day firing ability. His defense of Killma is still bad and the reluctance to lynch him looks real, but I don't buy the FOS as a smoking gun.
I don't love that 577 doesn't really seem to factor in the wagons for changing reads. Not damning on it's own but not a great look.
I really like his two big spoilered posts but I'm a sucker for that sort of stuff. So I probably shouldn't hard defend him based on them. They just feel real. And there are some good points especially in the one on Manasi. Particularly:
The final point in reply to 964 isn't as good and feels a bit flag plant-y but I really like the above points.
Verdict: Wouldn't mind lynching Dan. His early game was so buddy/buddy with Killma and to a lesser degree Cantrip he probably has to be lynched at some point but not sold on his scumminess after that. Plus a roughly + town role.
Like the worst already said Vez has a confirmed ability usage on N1 (normalizing Dan). There is literally far less overlap between your (you and Vezok) roles than between tom/Cantrip/GJ and Manasi/Unknown/Cantrip.
In this read wall tom seems inordaniately high for Cantrip's previously expressed feelings on him:
Killma seems a bit low. Dan is a bit high but makes sense in his fake scum!mikey spews Dan town world. Manasi more likely than KA to be scum based on this (my slot more than KA too).
Dias is now getting that fake town cred he was giving to Dan earlier which I'm squinting at but unsure what to make of it.
This lightly spews me town tbh.
And here is Cantrip's last post before entering full anti-spew. Well a snipped version of it to focus on another read wall. It's possible he was guessing RE had a guilty on him and was already anti-spewing but I'm still going to try and read into it.
The part about the worst continues to fuel my tom is scum here paranoia.
His read on Dan doesn't scream something he'd say to try and clear a buddy. It's worrisome the way he discarded the Dan is townie for Mikey being scummy read and didn't reevaluate, but the role part screams I'm town reading this guy because the way he used his role tricked us into not NK'ing RE.
Feels like an odd time to start bussing Manasi too though.
No real obvious takeaways from Cantrip's ISO unfortunately.
NOW DO SOMETHING ELSE
I think we need to pressure kpaca or just lynch him because if you lose to not lynching a 0 poster y'all are gonna feel really ******* bad. I don't think it gets to that point but lol lynching villagers that actually have some opinions itg and not lynching an ACTUALLY COMPLETELY DISENGAGED PLAYER.
I think that Grapefruit's analysis on this page is good and I don't want to lynch there.
I have dan's post open in another tab and I'll read it eventually. Soon. I hope.
I am kpaca
Derp clear denied. Etc. etc.
The red text is mine and feels like a trial balloon. "Can I get away with town reading this guy off effort?"
This on the other hand feels completely agendaless.
I have nothing analytical to read into wrt Manasi. It's all really tonal stuff and that's more in the eye of the beholder than something to wall about. I came out at about null.
Onto the tom handling of Killma I was talking about and asked about by Dan.
Grapefruit is kpaca........
Yes ok I'm town lololol.