He was complaining about the game playing 'sheep the lurkers', when we were both voting for Grapefruit along with him at the time, and the rest of my scum team minus him was his exact same scum team PoE. It just didn't/doesn't feel like he was critically thinking about the game, and it's a lot more likely to come from a wolf.
That is not what I was talking about at the time, but whatever.
I have not been very invested in the game for most of it. If you think that's more likely to come from me as scum, go read the games I linked.
But if you "acknowledge it's possible [you] can be conf-biasing a tunnel into the interaction," then that gives you zero pause on emphatically declaring over and over and over and over again that I'm definitely scum and definitely partners with Grape? I don't get you here.
Still pretty busy in and out of work to the point of maintaining V/LA, but I should be around after the weekend as previously mentioned. The strings holding life and health together are a bit thicker right now than they were half a week ago.
Forged in the molten magma called forth from the Underworld, glistening with the blood of a hundred sacrificial virgins (easily found in the libraries fantasy/scifi section), the gruesome Hellfire blade emanates power and menace. The creature uses it to scratch it's ass and pick it's teeth. In that order.
So I was gone longer than I thought. Apologies etc.
@Scarlet Celestial
The Osie read is less a read and more my confusion.
Scenario A: Osie is town, and sees my AtE, my lack of posting, my lack of strong progression, and my vote behaviour, and just kinda soft clears me and never worries about me again?
Scenario B: Osie is scum, sees all of the above transgressions and instead of trying to bury me, soft pockets me instead?
IMO, neither of these line up with what I would expect. I hold very little value in the pocket, I'm historically a null or worse player, and I was in on the Ara mislynch.
Why isn't town!Osie trying to lynch me or at least question me? On the flip of the coin, why isn't scum!Osie trying to bury me, or even shade me a bit?
After puzzling on that, I'm leaning scum. If Osie is a cornered wolf, it's possible they'd appease my AtE and flip it into an easy pocket, allowing them some room to push in another direction?
I'll look at that tomorrow. I'm probably not going to make it through the ossie I was planning to get through. Headed to bed soon, and I got distracted.
I did make it through grape, and eh I'm not feeling the super scum you are. Today is super disengaged and his response to you last night was very wooden and I didn't like his end of day yesterday, but I'm nowhere near the level of confidence you have that he'll flip scum. Scum team doesn't have him as a strong scumread either except by poe.
There's also concern about the gamestate right now and a concern that this isn't a gamestate that is due to scum just giving up. Just a general observation.
Oh Grape - If you read ossie as strongly scum as you do, why isn't that pulling you into the game some?
Forged in the molten magma called forth from the Underworld, glistening with the blood of a hundred sacrificial virgins (easily found in the libraries fantasy/scifi section), the gruesome Hellfire blade emanates power and menace. The creature uses it to scratch it's ass and pick it's teeth. In that order.
So I was gone longer than I thought. Apologies etc.
@Scarlet Celestial
The Osie read is less a read and more my confusion.
Scenario A: Osie is town, and sees my AtE, my lack of posting, my lack of strong progression, and my vote behaviour, and just kinda soft clears me and never worries about me again?
Scenario B: Osie is scum, sees all of the above transgressions and instead of trying to bury me, soft pockets me instead?
IMO, neither of these line up with what I would expect. I hold very little value in the pocket, I'm historically a null or worse player, and I was in on the Ara mislynch.
Why isn't town!Osie trying to lynch me or at least question me? On the flip of the coin, why isn't scum!Osie trying to bury me, or even shade me a bit?
After puzzling on that, I'm leaning scum. If Osie is a cornered wolf, it's possible they'd appease my AtE and flip it into an easy pocket, allowing them some room to push in another direction?
But that sums up my confusion with Osie.
Oh hi shade thy name is Tubba. Scum!Osie would just hide behind me without reservations unless scum with Grape.
Oh hi shade thy name is Tubba. Scum!Osie would just hide behind me without reservations unless scum with Grape.
Well I think Grape is scum, so Osie would be scum with them.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Why/how could scum!Osie hide behind you?
(See, when I'm not sure about something, I pose a question. I find it gives the player an opportunity to clarify things if I'm actually looking for their alignment, as opposed to just trying to make them look bad.)
Did you ever respond to my assertion that your VCA was flawed in regards to myself and Grape?
Would you explain how your VCA gives you the impression that Osie is town?
The Titus read is the way she tried to tie me to Grape as a partner, then goaded me into voting Grape with her (this was at start of day when I came in blazing right at Titus).
She's not a town read independently, and that felt an awful lot like trying to tie me to someone she knows is a wolf.
Not a lock, but not something I'm willing to hard clear her for, etc.
I think it's most likely to just be Grape/Osie/Tubba, but there's some small things that make me squint at that, too.
Fair complaint. I am fairly confident that Grape is scum. I don't know if you're scum with him or not. I feel you might be scum with Grape trying to keep Osie as a viable option. Regardless of your alignment, it's best for me to force you onto Grape. If you're scum with Grape and Osie town, the pressure prevents you from hard pushing an Osie mislynch bc how you'll look. Town you meanwhile sees the pragmatic approach of lynching a mutual scumread and arguing Osie scum tomorrow.
Oh hi shade thy name is Tubba. Scum!Osie would just hide behind me without reservations unless scum with Grape.
Well I think Grape is scum, so Osie would be scum with them.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Why/how could scum!Osie hide behind you?
(See, when I'm not sure about something, I pose a question. I find it gives the player an opportunity to clarify things if I'm actually looking for their alignment, as opposed to just trying to make them look bad.)
Did you ever respond to my assertion that your VCA was flawed in regards to myself and Grape?
Would you explain how your VCA gives you the impression that Osie is town?
Osie would see that I am hard defending him thus let me do the lifting. Instead, he flails.
You can have your belief that my vote momentum theory is wrong. My theory is that Grape needs to flio. I strongly feel he's scum but resolving his alignment tells us so much about the game. There is a chance I am wrong. I just don't feel that way.
I'll look at that tomorrow. I'm probably not going to make it through the ossie I was planning to get through. Headed to bed soon, and I got distracted.
I did make it through grape, and eh I'm not feeling the super scum you are. Today is super disengaged and his response to you last night was very wooden and I didn't like his end of day yesterday, but I'm nowhere near the level of confidence you have that he'll flip scum. Scum team doesn't have him as a strong scumread either except by poe.
There's also concern about the gamestate right now and a concern that this isn't a gamestate that is due to scum just giving up. Just a general observation.
Oh Grape - If you read ossie as strongly scum as you do, why isn't that pulling you into the game some?
Umm what?
Dammit I had a bet with my team you were going to call it a scum slip
I'll look at that tomorrow. I'm probably not going to make it through the ossie I was planning to get through. Headed to bed soon, and I got distracted.
I did make it through grape, and eh I'm not feeling the super scum you are. Today is super disengaged and his response to you last night was very wooden and I didn't like his end of day yesterday, but I'm nowhere near the level of confidence you have that he'll flip scum. Scum team doesn't have him as a strong scumread either except by poe.
There's also concern about the gamestate right now and a concern that this isn't a gamestate that is due to scum just giving up. Just a general observation.
Oh Grape - If you read ossie as strongly scum as you do, why isn't that pulling you into the game some?
Umm what?
Dammit I had a bet with my team you were going to call it a scum slip
That should say my team.
If it helps, my team wanted me to vote you as (mostly) a joke in response to that!
I'll be around a bit tonight, couple things I want to respond to/talk about.
So I had a long ass drive this morning and spent part of it thinking about the game. Well more like I spent it thinking about grape, and I came to the conclusion that grape just needs to flip.
So I said last night that my team didn't have a strong scum read on grape, well now they do. Well partly, I still have some hold out. Anyway after reading his iso, my team said yes strong scum. And also that unalignment with grape and tubba, not a very serious thought after all. Although they still think that tubba saying good ol town grape is weird for scum to say to a partner, which I don't agree with, and last night wanted to flip tubba first but now thinks grape and tubba are aligned after all with strong conviction because grape mentions tubba a bunch and with weird situational contexts. Also I've been asked to give vox a high-five from my team because they scumread tuba at the same time. Also that grape/ossie unalignment I mentioned was a misremembrance, they meant trob but I don't know why because there's been no mention of that at all. Summary of overnight team thoughts are basic agreement with Vox. And I'm done with team thoughts until I have a handle on the game because the voices in my head are just confusing me and what little understanding of the game I do have.
Okay I lied because my team and I have been going back and forth on grape. At first grape was an early scum read for the entire team, then I got some notes of a town read on grape from my team and now we're back to a scum read. So one of the things I was thinking about with grape were the couple reasons that my team liked him for town earlier. One of the things my team liked was his early world building about his trob read and how deep that one felt, and the other was the conviction with which he pushed the RE read. Now these thoughts come from the first six/seven pages of the game but these were the main grape looks town for these reasons.
For the Trob thing, I thought this interaction from his end could have been some early distancing. Maybe not, based on this post, which I was asked to ask about and forgot, but read again last night and was confused.
wouldnt my lack of nervousness indicate scumminess by that logic then im lost
Nervousness would have explained your posting completely. 53 is just very "try hard" and looked nervous so it was making me doubt my earlier read.
Grapefruit came into the game voting Trob semi-seriously and saying that he found something in RVS that he was holding on to. Later, if I'm understanding his posts correctly the rvc thing he saw was trob and the nervousness/self-meta. What earlier read was he talking about here then?
(what is trob's response there even?)
Anyway, he came back to the trob thing later when talking to me about people who might be tmi'ing me as town and thought that trob was potentially scum calling me town too early. Then the trob thing got dropped. In the middle of day, in response to a question he says that nobody's asked him about the trob thing and she hadn't been around. Troba did come back a couple days later but there's really nothing that grape does with it and today in his reads list he's got that slot in a null town? slot. He says it was based on liking trob's posts and the worst posts, but it does feel like a weird drop in something that seemed somewhat significant to him yesterday. (I change my mind all the time so I don't care about that, but it feels a bit disjointed here.)
The other thing my team liked from him was the strength and conviction of his RE push. Now I hated the reasoning for his early RE push, but it is something he was fairly tunneled on whenever he posted. I'm not sure if he's the type of scum that thinks tunneling on a strongly town read player is more indicative of town or not, so I was kinda wondering if he was town just based on how much he kept going after her when literally nobody was buying what he was selling but eh that's a personality thing. (Oh also onto this was he went from attacking Trob who people were liking to attacking RE who people were liking.)
One of the things that bothered me about Grape at eod yesterday was kinda how abrupt he was and then a couple little interactions here with RE:
As for why I'm not voting you, it's for similar reasons to ScarletC. More of a threshold for me to be wrong. Plus Grape is just on a whole other tier of scumminess than you. I'm not really sure why you think that's a good question when I've made it clear my preference has been Grape this whole time.
Despite us walling at each other you've mostly been talking to me like you believe I'm town and not been throwing out little comments calling me scum for the most part.
</blockquote>
I've mentioned this before, but this is something that just always pings when people say it. Town do say it, but scum say it a lot too mostly to discredit the person scum reading them I guess.
I've changed my mind. Scum team is Grape/Scarlet/Osie.
(I'll respond to everything when I get back from running an errand for my Mom)
Every time I post... This is ridiculous. I climb while not posting, then I show back up, make 2 posts, and am instantly booted back to scum.
Anyway I'm out. Good luck lynch one of RE/Foop.
And this was the post I spent the most time thinking about because one of the things that my team liked about grapefruit was his conviction on RE (which is weird as he's been complaining about other people's conviction on reads), anyway is this town frustration or scum complaining?
Now I can see town getting irritated that when they're not around they end up null but they make a couple posts and people move them down to scum. It's annoying to be read as scum when you're town and just posting your thoughts on the game.
But Grapefruit thinks that RE is scum and has been pushing her all day long as his strongest scum read. Is this the reaction town has to someone he believes is scum putting him at null when he's not around to scum when he is? Like I've had people I was scum reading do weird movements with their read on me, and my reaction's usually something along the lines of paranoia, frustration, even more suspicion but this just feels wrong?
quote from="Grapefruit21 »" url="/forums/community-forums/mafia/796111-team-mafia-game-3-monster-manual-mafia-day-2?comment=1373"]
If Osie is a wolf it's Rage and then one of Marko, Tubba, Foop. If Osie is a villager I'll have to completely reevaluate but I'd start by making sure I actually like my town reads on you and the worst because the core of SC and Tammy is fine. I don't have a team in mind but I'd start by lynching one of Marko/Tubba and seeing where things go. Gun to head Foop+Marko and Tubba but I'd be lost if Osie flipped town.
Team thinks Grape tmi'd osie as scum here, which I don't agree with because I make that statement all the time, so meh.
And with all that I'm still not super convinced he's going to flip scum like my team/voxx/titus? is. I think he needs to flip regardless, especially if this is going to be what his game looks like. There's a part of me that thinks I should do my due diligence and meta him just to make sure, but quite frankly I don't think it would matter anyway.
I'll get to it, just was catching up first. Didn't super feel like digging into your post in depth just yet, given I'm heading out for food shortly.
Can you talk to me about Grapefruit and Marko?
Grape I'd rather not talk about just yet - want to see what they post this phase first. Don't really know what to think of their Day 1 really, because my gut said Town but on second reading the RE case was plain bad. Seemed similar to a prior scum game as well. I never managed to get answers concerning that.
Sorry for multiple posts in a row. Stepping out to make dinner and spend time with my other half before he goes to work. I'll pick up at the top of 26 in a couple hours. I'll probably be around for about 3 hours once I get back. My goal is to get completely caught up here and get a handle on the game tonight as I have a lot on my plate this weekend.
Light TR on RE is an easy sheep read. Not sure why RE is a higher townread then Tammy who she gushes over. reason for TRing Tammy is like....... light tonal stuff and "light townread for food stuff. not even kidding" is really creepy when people have been discussing their reasons for reading Tammy/Empoof out of the food stuff for like the last 100 posts. Reason for TRing Foopme is forced. reason for TRing Grape is like kinda a 'suit yourself fam' thing, I guess I very obviously disagree with it but it's feeling more like an excuse to look like she has a read rather than the actual reason for reading him. Nullread on Voxxicus is awesome but "he feels guarded, nah this might be paranoia, I'm at a loss, he's not reading very well, I'm not sure" is top notch cringe.
her scumleans are whatever
I just don't see how the top 2/3 of her impromptu read list is actually like reads someone could have
I've got a Townread on this post. Scum who gets told RE was killed does not bother to make a post like this on them, not only is it a waste of time but it also means that it makes them stand out pretty early on. This guy is oblivious to information, scum aren't.
I think he's critiquing Ossie's first reads list here not talking about RE.
Voxx - I'll want to talk to you a bit about your Titus concerns later when I've finished catching up. I totally get why you feel that she's trying to tie you to grapefruit because it's a way scum do a lot, but I'm just not sure that's what she's doing here. Anyway I'll talk more about it later.
But woah you picked up on that same exact thing that bugged me about Osie. The insistence that his response to SC was not alignment indicative. I did something similar in Three Little Pigs where I blew up at Nacho's push on me and I was mad about something that had nothing to do with that game and it seeped through, but people town read me for it and I spend the entirety of the game telling people it wasn't alignment indicative and that it was out of game because I felt so dirty that people were town reading me for it.
I need to find another post I wanted to respond to because multiquote didn’t save it, but
Celestial - you said that you looked at a tubba game and that his activity is similar? Did you notice whether or not he had a tendency to basically go with the flow of the thread or did he have divergent opinions?
Like I don't know what's happening in this game. I've barely read it. I was focused on RE because that read was my anchor. I don't know who scum is now, and I do know I will garner further scum reads for this post, but importantly I am sure I will find scum on my wagon.
Does scum post this? Partly rhetorical before everyone jumps in and says yes, but like I've been this disengaged from game before and just not had anything. Mostly I'm looking at the I know I'll garner further scum reads for this post, which just feels like a weird thing to post as scum but something I've posted as town before when I know I wasn't giving people anything to work with.
IDK just little things like that that give me pause on grapefruit being scum. Everybody else is probably right and he's probably just always scum here. What did look townish early game dropped off with his activity.
You wanna know one of my mafia weaknesses? It's when a player repeatedly refers to people being wrong on their scum reads on themselves, say they're a mislynch, etc. Which is something that Ossie has done a lot, so the more it happens the more I think oh yeah maybe he is town after all. I'm going to look at that scum game he posted to see if he does do it as scum; it's just something that some people have a hard time with as scum. Voxxicus you've mentioned ossie being ossie and a hard read because he always looks fake, but how much experience do you have with him? I'm trying to figure out what kind of level of expectation he should have from your play. Because he's kinda made a couple little digs that I'm trying to figure out if scum him would feel comfortable making to a town you. Things like when talking about you, of all people, trying to be a town leader. Or flat out telling you a couple of your reads are wrong.
I guess that's something I'll look for when I look at his game as well. Basically I'm wondering if he's somewhat ballsy/confident scum or does he shy away from people who are stronger town players.
Ossie is doing that thing where he's giving different variations on the you're talking to people like they're town thing, which pinged. And his reaction to TW felt wrong. I don't understand both his and grapefruit's complaints about people's certainty, but neither of them like it at all.
The LOLOLOL OMGUS LOLOLOL post from Ossie is really jarring and does look like partner interaction. It just rings scum theater.
I think the post where Voxx lays down the read about how Ossie is complaining about people following the lurker reads when they're all pushing grapefruit as scum.
Still have some reservations though because yeah he's easy mislynchbait in general.
I'm starting to fade. I had grand plans to stay up for another hour or so getting a handle on the game but like I just fell asleep in the middle of typing, so.
My biggest issue with tubba is that in general his posts just have such a consensy following thread temperature feel to them. I just never get the feel that he's really trying to solve the game. Oh fart jokes aside, the thing that made me start thinking he might be town yesterday was him slipping in his view of the gamestate. That was an original post, so was the fart joke post too now that I think of it, but he had this view of scum being in the various levels of activity and something indicating that scum didn't have day talk, which didn't feel like a fake attempt at a derp clear, but that's all I have to go on there.
Voxxicus - I really don't think that is grapefruit is scum here that titus is his partner. I mean I'll double check with meta if it ever comes to it, but that goes against everything I've seen from titus as scum. Yesterday she spent the entire day voting mostly grapefruit or celestial, with a couple marko and ara votes here and there. But like it's been mostly them and there was a point where grapefruit was a decent contender. Okay I guess I shouldn't say she isn't scum if he is because there's always the possibility, but it just doesn't feel likely coming from her specifically. I also think that the post where she kinda omguses you for suspecting her, I think it's the post where you see her tying you to grapefruit, looks kinda like her town reactions to suspicion. She has a tendency to omgus suspicion on her in that kind of way; I'd have a stronger feel for this if it was a stronger reaction. Oh crap I had another thought here too and I've lost it. I'll bring it up again when I remember.
Anyway I don't really see that as trying to tie you together with grape in a scummy way. The times when I've seen her try to tie people with her partners it's been a bit more underhanded and not while bussing.
So this has been a fabulous party of one and I'm going to try to make it through Osie's scum game and maybe tubba's before I pass out. I might be around for a little bit, might not.
Problems with this vote count? PM me or DM me on Discord for the fastest response. Posting something in-thread will probably get my attention eventually.
@Tammy I think I didn't get engaged by catching Osie because his accusation of OMGUS was so bald. Killed any joy of the hunt.
He's just so clearly wolfy that even though everyone and their brother thinks I'm scum I still feel like we're winning because Osie is sitting there on a silver platter.
@Tammy I think I didn't get engaged by catching Osie because his accusation of OMGUS was so bald. Killed any joy of the hunt.
He's just so clearly wolfy that even though everyone and their brother thinks I'm scum I still feel like we're winning because Osie is sitting there on a silver platter.
Man.
This is all you say/respond to when coming back to thread?
(and if Osie is actually somehow town they're dead weight + WILL be lynched to lose the game. I can't see a reason to keep that around)
Says the player who openly refuses to do work in thread.
It's players like you that ruin the health of forums because nobody joins games with them in it.
Yikes.
I get it, it's frustrating because like. Either you're a villager and he's pushing you with the kind of posts he is, or you're a wolf, and he's correct for what seems like no reason, but let's avoid this kind of toxicity. It's been a pretty good game in that regard and let's try to keep it that way, yeah?
(and if Osie is actually somehow town they're dead weight + WILL be lynched to lose the game. I can't see a reason to keep that around)
Says the player who openly refuses to do work in thread.
It's players like you that ruin the health of forums because nobody joins games with them in it.
Yikes.
I get it, it's frustrating because like. Either you're a villager and he's pushing you with the kind of posts he is, or you're a wolf, and he's correct for what seems like no reason, but let's avoid this kind of toxicity. It's been a pretty good game in that regard and let's try to keep it that way, yeah?
Yeah, I shouldn't escalate the bad posting.
Well, things should get interesting there anyways if I'm not lynched tomorrow.
(and if Osie is actually somehow town they're dead weight + WILL be lynched to lose the game. I can't see a reason to keep that around)
Says the player who openly refuses to do work in thread.
It's players like you that ruin the health of forums because nobody joins games with them in it.
Yikes.
I get it, it's frustrating because like. Either you're a villager and he's pushing you with the kind of posts he is, or you're a wolf, and he's correct for what seems like no reason, but let's avoid this kind of toxicity. It's been a pretty good game in that regard and let's try to keep it that way, yeah?
Yeah, I shouldn't escalate the bad posting.
Well, things should get interesting there anyways if I'm not lynched tomorrow.
Voxx didn't you say you were going to push Titus today?
ISO my posts in D2 if you want a decentish summary of gamestate.
I started on Titus, then Grape/Osie had some super ????? interactions that felt fake and over the top, and I think we're at Grape + Osie + one of Titus/Tubba, leaning towards Tubba.
I'd like to see some work out of you, but I don't.... think? You're with Grape, who I'm pretty locked in on as a wolf here.
I'm around for a bit if you want to chat. I'm sure you haven't really read much of D2, but I do think poking at my posts a bit will get you generally familiar with what's going on (and help you get a read on me, since I was MIA d1 due to medical stuff).
@Tammy I think I didn't get engaged by catching Osie because his accusation of OMGUS was so bald. Killed any joy of the hunt.
He's just so clearly wolfy that even though everyone and their brother thinks I'm scum I still feel like we're winning because Osie is sitting there on a silver platter.
Man.
This is all you say/respond to when coming back to thread?
@Tammy I think I didn't get engaged by catching Osie because his accusation of OMGUS was so bald. Killed any joy of the hunt.
He's just so clearly wolfy that even though everyone and their brother thinks I'm scum I still feel like we're winning because Osie is sitting there on a silver platter.
Man.
This is all you say/respond to when coming back to thread?
Yup.
Fair enough.
On a scale of 1-10, how dead am I tonight after you guys got the bodyguard dead N1?
I guess that's Grape mostly giving up and going anti-spew mode.
Pretty sure if he was actually a villager here he'd have responded to me trying to reach out and get there on him in some way, but this isn't that, to say the least.
There's levels involved here regarding Osie, in that like.
Grape obviously isn't..trying that hard to get us to lynch Osie over him (and frankly, vice versa), and that makes more sense as w/w where the wind has kind of been taken out of their sails by us correctly identifying it as w/w when they tried to distance.
My team wants Osie's flip because they aren't as sure on him as they are Grapefruit, as weird as that might seem. Like, they want to know if this is w/w or w/v, because the remaining wolves change a bit depending which universe we are in.
I'm personally kind of ambivalent, because I don't really expect to still be alive tomorrow to use that information.
There's still two pr's out there somewhere, if we have a vig, just shoot whichever of Osie/Grape we don't lynch. If there's an info role, do your thing I guess. ~levels~ if Grape/Osie makes the kill or if they risk having the third member of team do it I guess, as I'd almost bet money that Silver put a tracker in this setup over any other kind of info role. Maybe masons? Whatever, doesn't matter. Point is like, we should be able to lock this game down pretty easy.
Osie being a villager is the world where it might not be as easy as it seems, but I think there's pretty much no universe where Grape is a villager after his recent posts here.
My team and I have talked about The Worst a fair bit, and it's a little mixed. We struggle to believe that he'd be so....blatant at pushing the counterwagon to his partner when his partner is still obviously going to die either today or tomorrow. He's probably not a wolf with Grape, and almost certainly not a wolf with Osie, so he's just...probably a villager unless we're in v/v wagon world, which seems frankly impossible.
We're collectively at like 100% certainty on Tammy being town.
I'm more sure than my team is on SC being town, as they're tinfoiling there slightly in worlds where Osie is v and Grape w. If this is w/w, SC is probably just town, and I personally think she's just town regardless.
We're pretty? sure that Empoof is town here. He probably has the most wolf equity of the top 3 town reads if the game turns out to like, not be as easy as it looks. My team is basically willing to sheep Visor/Lissa/Ara on this read to some degree, and making fun of them if it's wrong, but I think he's likely town independently of that, it's just not as strong as I'd like it to be given he hasn't really been around (for understandable reasons).
I think Marko's town. His re-entrance to thread here just has that same feeling of disconnectedness that I'm not sure he'd quite have as a wolf. Feel like he'd have a better grasp on what is going on and what angles to take as a wolf, and also don't think he's w/w with Grape.
I've talked about The Worst/Trob a fair bit, and we're mostly at like. He's probably town, but we don't really blame town if they end up lynching him at some point this game. I don't think he's ever w/w with Osie, so if that is a red flip you can just clear him likely. There's a chance he could be w/w with Grape if Osie is town, but I kind of think Trob had some posts that aren't likely to be w/w with Grape early in the game. It could have been a weird distancing interaction though, and isn't a lock clearing situation. It'd just be kind of weird for TW to so blatantly push Osie over Grape here with the votes ping ponging back and forth and him not...looking all that good in the process. On the balance, he's probably just town.
Given all of that, we still think it's 3 in Grape/Osie/Tubba/Titus, in roughly that order of certainty. Neither Tubba or Titus feel like perfect fits, but they're better fits than anyone else in the game, and my team (well, one of them especially) is just kind of rolling my eyes at me for still caring as much about this game as I do given it's probably just solved.
I'm not certain on Tammy being town Voxx. They very well could be. I haven't played a game with her being scum in ages. I am hesitant for two reasons. First, Tammy's reluctance to give a read on me. While I know she and I routinely dance on each other, I figured Nacho and her team would read me. Second, Tammy is apathetic towards being scum. Letting Grape die while doing nothing (regardless of Grape's alignment) is ok for scum Tammy.
Yeah, I gave him some extra consideration given your read, and looked at/asked him about the things you were questioning - mostly the way he got to a town read on me pretty easily/solidly.
I'd just finished wolfing with him in a stupidly intense DLP game, immediately after I finished wolfing in Anniversary (god that was horrible, the near simultaneous wolf rands that meant I was spending 20 hours a day playing an alignment I utterly loathe), and his comparative/mindset read based on that and the posts in question is reasonable to have I think. I'm still a little skeptical that anyone /should/ have town read me off of anything I did D1, but I understand where it came from given the context.
There's also the thing where like, almost every one of my scum reads is pushing Osie in a kind of opportunistic, "****, well, I have to push some villager, but this is hard" kind of way. I don't think he's w/w with Grapefruit or Osie, tbh - if it turns out this is v/v he gets a lot more likely to be a wolf, but I have very high confidence wolf read in Grapefruit, and think it just makes Empoof town here.
I like the way he progressed and reacted to Ara, and I liked a lot of his early game stuff when I did my overnight re-read, just very... not quite nitpicky, but poking and prodding in a way that resonates with me as his town play over the one-dimensional scumplay from the game I just finished with him.
He's been disengaged, and his play kind of uninspired, but I don't think that's alignment indicative here. A byproduct of OOG factors, the long phases, and being content with where the gamestate is at right now that feels 'right' for him to be disengaged given the amalgamation of those things.
(I'm also giving /some/ credence to Ara/Visor/Lissa lock 100% town reading him to point that Ara screamed to never lynch him with her dying breath over and over, but I wouldn't be paying thaaaaat much attention to that read if I hadn't put in the work to decide he was probably town regardless)
I'm not certain on Tammy being town Voxx. They very well could be. I haven't played a game with her being scum in ages. I am hesitant for two reasons. First, Tammy's reluctance to give a read on me. While I know she and I routinely dance on each other, I figured Nacho and her team would read me. Second, Tammy is apathetic towards being scum. Letting Grape die while doing nothing (regardless of Grape's alignment) is ok for scum Tammy.
How are you 100% certain she's town?
You've missed some posts by Tammy, I think. Maybe she's been reluctant to talk to you about her/their read on you, but she tried to convince me that she doesn't think you're scum here.
The way I read Tammy isn't based on her words, or her actions at all, it's based on how she thinks - more specifically, how she visibly thinks. When she's a wolf I've never found a post she's made that just makes me go 'Aha, there it is, that's what I was looking for from her' the way I have 6-7 different posts in this game. It's like she'll write the same kind of meandering paragraph, but as a villager you can almost see her thought process wandering and twisting through the words like a tapeworm slithering through a brain or something.
I think the team-based element of this game has given extra opportunities for that kind of read to happen, and there's been some team thoughts that really resonate with me/my team as being Real Things That Happened, too, on top of her thought process being transparent/visible in a way she struggles to do as a wolf.
I can go through and pull a bunch of quotes sometime before the EoD as my 'never lynch Tammy' legacy for people to look at, but I'm pretty sure she's dead in next couple nights anyways so probably won't matter. Just high, high degree confidence read.
Scarlet Celestial is V/LA until Tuesday, August 14th.
Foopme is also V/LA until Tuesday, August 14th.
No prods at this time.
If some part of this post is in error, please DM me on Discord or mention me in your team chat for the fastest response. Posting something in-thread will probably get my attention eventually.
Unvote
Stop trying to stifle discussion.
That is not what I was talking about at the time, but whatever.
I have not been very invested in the game for most of it. If you think that's more likely to come from me as scum, go read the games I linked.
But if you "acknowledge it's possible [you] can be conf-biasing a tunnel into the interaction," then that gives you zero pause on emphatically declaring over and over and over and over again that I'm definitely scum and definitely partners with Grape? I don't get you here.
Still pretty busy in and out of work to the point of maintaining V/LA, but I should be around after the weekend as previously mentioned. The strings holding life and health together are a bit thicker right now than they were half a week ago.
So I was gone longer than I thought. Apologies etc.
@Scarlet Celestial
The Osie read is less a read and more my confusion.
Scenario A: Osie is town, and sees my AtE, my lack of posting, my lack of strong progression, and my vote behaviour, and just kinda soft clears me and never worries about me again?
Scenario B: Osie is scum, sees all of the above transgressions and instead of trying to bury me, soft pockets me instead?
IMO, neither of these line up with what I would expect. I hold very little value in the pocket, I'm historically a null or worse player, and I was in on the Ara mislynch.
Why isn't town!Osie trying to lynch me or at least question me? On the flip of the coin, why isn't scum!Osie trying to bury me, or even shade me a bit?
After puzzling on that, I'm leaning scum. If Osie is a cornered wolf, it's possible they'd appease my AtE and flip it into an easy pocket, allowing them some room to push in another direction?
But that sums up my confusion with Osie.
If I put my tinfoil hat on, scum!Voxx has beautifully painted me into a corner.
Umm what?
Oh hi shade thy name is Tubba. Scum!Osie would just hide behind me without reservations unless scum with Grape.
Well I think Grape is scum, so Osie would be scum with them.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Why/how could scum!Osie hide behind you?
(See, when I'm not sure about something, I pose a question. I find it gives the player an opportunity to clarify things if I'm actually looking for their alignment, as opposed to just trying to make them look bad.)
Did you ever respond to my assertion that your VCA was flawed in regards to myself and Grape?
Would you explain how your VCA gives you the impression that Osie is town?
Fair complaint. I am fairly confident that Grape is scum. I don't know if you're scum with him or not. I feel you might be scum with Grape trying to keep Osie as a viable option. Regardless of your alignment, it's best for me to force you onto Grape. If you're scum with Grape and Osie town, the pressure prevents you from hard pushing an Osie mislynch bc how you'll look. Town you meanwhile sees the pragmatic approach of lynching a mutual scumread and arguing Osie scum tomorrow.
Osie would see that I am hard defending him thus let me do the lifting. Instead, he flails.
You can have your belief that my vote momentum theory is wrong. My theory is that Grape needs to flio. I strongly feel he's scum but resolving his alignment tells us so much about the game. There is a chance I am wrong. I just don't feel that way.
As for Osie, I'll grab the VCs for that later.
Dammit I had a bet with my team you were going to call it a scum slip
That should say my team.
If it helps, my team wanted me to vote you as (mostly) a joke in response to that!
I'll be around a bit tonight, couple things I want to respond to/talk about.
I'll be around a bit tonight as well. Need to get a handle on the game and that's on the menu for tonight.
So I said last night that my team didn't have a strong scum read on grape, well now they do. Well partly, I still have some hold out. Anyway after reading his iso, my team said yes strong scum. And also that unalignment with grape and tubba, not a very serious thought after all. Although they still think that tubba saying good ol town grape is weird for scum to say to a partner, which I don't agree with, and last night wanted to flip tubba first but now thinks grape and tubba are aligned after all with strong conviction because grape mentions tubba a bunch and with weird situational contexts. Also I've been asked to give vox a high-five from my team because they scumread tuba at the same time. Also that grape/ossie unalignment I mentioned was a misremembrance, they meant trob but I don't know why because there's been no mention of that at all. Summary of overnight team thoughts are basic agreement with Vox. And I'm done with team thoughts until I have a handle on the game because the voices in my head are just confusing me and what little understanding of the game I do have.
Okay I lied because my team and I have been going back and forth on grape. At first grape was an early scum read for the entire team, then I got some notes of a town read on grape from my team and now we're back to a scum read. So one of the things I was thinking about with grape were the couple reasons that my team liked him for town earlier. One of the things my team liked was his early world building about his trob read and how deep that one felt, and the other was the conviction with which he pushed the RE read. Now these thoughts come from the first six/seven pages of the game but these were the main grape looks town for these reasons.
For the Trob thing, I thought this interaction from his end could have been some early distancing. Maybe not, based on this post, which I was asked to ask about and forgot, but read again last night and was confused.
Grapefruit came into the game voting Trob semi-seriously and saying that he found something in RVS that he was holding on to. Later, if I'm understanding his posts correctly the rvc thing he saw was trob and the nervousness/self-meta. What earlier read was he talking about here then?
(what is trob's response there even?)
Anyway, he came back to the trob thing later when talking to me about people who might be tmi'ing me as town and thought that trob was potentially scum calling me town too early. Then the trob thing got dropped. In the middle of day, in response to a question he says that nobody's asked him about the trob thing and she hadn't been around. Troba did come back a couple days later but there's really nothing that grape does with it and today in his reads list he's got that slot in a null town? slot. He says it was based on liking trob's posts and the worst posts, but it does feel like a weird drop in something that seemed somewhat significant to him yesterday. (I change my mind all the time so I don't care about that, but it feels a bit disjointed here.)
The other thing my team liked from him was the strength and conviction of his RE push. Now I hated the reasoning for his early RE push, but it is something he was fairly tunneled on whenever he posted. I'm not sure if he's the type of scum that thinks tunneling on a strongly town read player is more indicative of town or not, so I was kinda wondering if he was town just based on how much he kept going after her when literally nobody was buying what he was selling but eh that's a personality thing. (Oh also onto this was he went from attacking Trob who people were liking to attacking RE who people were liking.)
One of the things that bothered me about Grape at eod yesterday was kinda how abrupt he was and then a couple little interactions here with RE:
Team thinks Grape tmi'd osie as scum here, which I don't agree with because I make that statement all the time, so meh.
And with all that I'm still not super convinced he's going to flip scum like my team/voxx/titus? is. I think he needs to flip regardless, especially if this is going to be what his game looks like. There's a part of me that thinks I should do my due diligence and meta him just to make sure, but quite frankly I don't think it would matter anyway.
I think it's still clear enough. My responses ended up inside the box.
How was it similar to a prior scum game?
I think he's critiquing Ossie's first reads list here not talking about RE.
Voxx - I'll want to talk to you a bit about your Titus concerns later when I've finished catching up. I totally get why you feel that she's trying to tie you to grapefruit because it's a way scum do a lot, but I'm just not sure that's what she's doing here. Anyway I'll talk more about it later.
But woah you picked up on that same exact thing that bugged me about Osie. The insistence that his response to SC was not alignment indicative. I did something similar in Three Little Pigs where I blew up at Nacho's push on me and I was mad about something that had nothing to do with that game and it seeped through, but people town read me for it and I spend the entirety of the game telling people it wasn't alignment indicative and that it was out of game because I felt so dirty that people were town reading me for it.
Be back in a bit.
Celestial - you said that you looked at a tubba game and that his activity is similar? Did you notice whether or not he had a tendency to basically go with the flow of the thread or did he have divergent opinions?
Does scum post this? Partly rhetorical before everyone jumps in and says yes, but like I've been this disengaged from game before and just not had anything. Mostly I'm looking at the I know I'll garner further scum reads for this post, which just feels like a weird thing to post as scum but something I've posted as town before when I know I wasn't giving people anything to work with.
IDK just little things like that that give me pause on grapefruit being scum. Everybody else is probably right and he's probably just always scum here. What did look townish early game dropped off with his activity.
You wanna know one of my mafia weaknesses? It's when a player repeatedly refers to people being wrong on their scum reads on themselves, say they're a mislynch, etc. Which is something that Ossie has done a lot, so the more it happens the more I think oh yeah maybe he is town after all. I'm going to look at that scum game he posted to see if he does do it as scum; it's just something that some people have a hard time with as scum. Voxxicus you've mentioned ossie being ossie and a hard read because he always looks fake, but how much experience do you have with him? I'm trying to figure out what kind of level of expectation he should have from your play. Because he's kinda made a couple little digs that I'm trying to figure out if scum him would feel comfortable making to a town you. Things like when talking about you, of all people, trying to be a town leader. Or flat out telling you a couple of your reads are wrong.
I guess that's something I'll look for when I look at his game as well. Basically I'm wondering if he's somewhat ballsy/confident scum or does he shy away from people who are stronger town players.
Ossie is doing that thing where he's giving different variations on the you're talking to people like they're town thing, which pinged. And his reaction to TW felt wrong. I don't understand both his and grapefruit's complaints about people's certainty, but neither of them like it at all.
The LOLOLOL OMGUS LOLOLOL post from Ossie is really jarring and does look like partner interaction. It just rings scum theater.
I think the post where Voxx lays down the read about how Ossie is complaining about people following the lurker reads when they're all pushing grapefruit as scum.
Still have some reservations though because yeah he's easy mislynchbait in general.
I'm starting to fade. I had grand plans to stay up for another hour or so getting a handle on the game but like I just fell asleep in the middle of typing, so.
My biggest issue with tubba is that in general his posts just have such a consensy following thread temperature feel to them. I just never get the feel that he's really trying to solve the game. Oh fart jokes aside, the thing that made me start thinking he might be town yesterday was him slipping in his view of the gamestate. That was an original post, so was the fart joke post too now that I think of it, but he had this view of scum being in the various levels of activity and something indicating that scum didn't have day talk, which didn't feel like a fake attempt at a derp clear, but that's all I have to go on there.
Voxxicus - I really don't think that is grapefruit is scum here that titus is his partner. I mean I'll double check with meta if it ever comes to it, but that goes against everything I've seen from titus as scum. Yesterday she spent the entire day voting mostly grapefruit or celestial, with a couple marko and ara votes here and there. But like it's been mostly them and there was a point where grapefruit was a decent contender. Okay I guess I shouldn't say she isn't scum if he is because there's always the possibility, but it just doesn't feel likely coming from her specifically. I also think that the post where she kinda omguses you for suspecting her, I think it's the post where you see her tying you to grapefruit, looks kinda like her town reactions to suspicion. She has a tendency to omgus suspicion on her in that kind of way; I'd have a stronger feel for this if it was a stronger reaction. Oh crap I had another thought here too and I've lost it. I'll bring it up again when I remember.
Anyway I don't really see that as trying to tie you together with grape in a scummy way. The times when I've seen her try to tie people with her partners it's been a bit more underhanded and not while bussing.
So this has been a fabulous party of one and I'm going to try to make it through Osie's scum game and maybe tubba's before I pass out. I might be around for a little bit, might not.
osieorb18 - 3 (the worst, Grapefruit21, Foopme)
Not Voting - 4 (Tammy, osieorb18, ScarletCelestial, MarkoRaj)
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to majority lynch.
Day 2 ends at 6:00 PM Eastern Time on August 18th unless there is a majority lynch.
Osieorb18 is V/LA until Sunday, August 12th.
Problems with this vote count? PM me or DM me on Discord for the fastest response. Posting something in-thread will probably get my attention eventually.
if so in the event grape is somehow town I don't wanna be in 8p Mylo with obvscum still around :/
He's just so clearly wolfy that even though everyone and their brother thinks I'm scum I still feel like we're winning because Osie is sitting there on a silver platter.
Man.
This is all you say/respond to when coming back to thread?
Says the player who openly refuses to do work in thread.
It's players like you that ruin the health of forums because nobody joins games with them in it.
Yikes.
I get it, it's frustrating because like. Either you're a villager and he's pushing you with the kind of posts he is, or you're a wolf, and he's correct for what seems like no reason, but let's avoid this kind of toxicity. It's been a pretty good game in that regard and let's try to keep it that way, yeah?
https://imgur.com/ebvVnNY
Yeah, I shouldn't escalate the bad posting.
Well, things should get interesting there anyways if I'm not lynched tomorrow.
Raisins.
Or otherwise dead.
ISO my posts in D2 if you want a decentish summary of gamestate.
I started on Titus, then Grape/Osie had some super ????? interactions that felt fake and over the top, and I think we're at Grape + Osie + one of Titus/Tubba, leaning towards Tubba.
I'd like to see some work out of you, but I don't.... think? You're with Grape, who I'm pretty locked in on as a wolf here.
No.
Yup.
Fair enough.
On a scale of 1-10, how dead am I tonight after you guys got the bodyguard dead N1?
Pretty sure if he was actually a villager here he'd have responded to me trying to reach out and get there on him in some way, but this isn't that, to say the least.
There's levels involved here regarding Osie, in that like.
Grape obviously isn't..trying that hard to get us to lynch Osie over him (and frankly, vice versa), and that makes more sense as w/w where the wind has kind of been taken out of their sails by us correctly identifying it as w/w when they tried to distance.
My team wants Osie's flip because they aren't as sure on him as they are Grapefruit, as weird as that might seem. Like, they want to know if this is w/w or w/v, because the remaining wolves change a bit depending which universe we are in.
I'm personally kind of ambivalent, because I don't really expect to still be alive tomorrow to use that information.
There's still two pr's out there somewhere, if we have a vig, just shoot whichever of Osie/Grape we don't lynch. If there's an info role, do your thing I guess. ~levels~ if Grape/Osie makes the kill or if they risk having the third member of team do it I guess, as I'd almost bet money that Silver put a tracker in this setup over any other kind of info role. Maybe masons? Whatever, doesn't matter. Point is like, we should be able to lock this game down pretty easy.
Osie being a villager is the world where it might not be as easy as it seems, but I think there's pretty much no universe where Grape is a villager after his recent posts here.
My team and I have talked about The Worst a fair bit, and it's a little mixed. We struggle to believe that he'd be so....blatant at pushing the counterwagon to his partner when his partner is still obviously going to die either today or tomorrow. He's probably not a wolf with Grape, and almost certainly not a wolf with Osie, so he's just...probably a villager unless we're in v/v wagon world, which seems frankly impossible.
If it's exactly Grape/Osie/Tubba, I want a gold star for this game.
Off to sleep for tonight, though.
How are you 100% certain she's town?
Yeah, I gave him some extra consideration given your read, and looked at/asked him about the things you were questioning - mostly the way he got to a town read on me pretty easily/solidly.
I'd just finished wolfing with him in a stupidly intense DLP game, immediately after I finished wolfing in Anniversary (god that was horrible, the near simultaneous wolf rands that meant I was spending 20 hours a day playing an alignment I utterly loathe), and his comparative/mindset read based on that and the posts in question is reasonable to have I think. I'm still a little skeptical that anyone /should/ have town read me off of anything I did D1, but I understand where it came from given the context.
There's also the thing where like, almost every one of my scum reads is pushing Osie in a kind of opportunistic, "****, well, I have to push some villager, but this is hard" kind of way. I don't think he's w/w with Grapefruit or Osie, tbh - if it turns out this is v/v he gets a lot more likely to be a wolf, but I have very high confidence wolf read in Grapefruit, and think it just makes Empoof town here.
I like the way he progressed and reacted to Ara, and I liked a lot of his early game stuff when I did my overnight re-read, just very... not quite nitpicky, but poking and prodding in a way that resonates with me as his town play over the one-dimensional scumplay from the game I just finished with him.
He's been disengaged, and his play kind of uninspired, but I don't think that's alignment indicative here. A byproduct of OOG factors, the long phases, and being content with where the gamestate is at right now that feels 'right' for him to be disengaged given the amalgamation of those things.
(I'm also giving /some/ credence to Ara/Visor/Lissa lock 100% town reading him to point that Ara screamed to never lynch him with her dying breath over and over, but I wouldn't be paying thaaaaat much attention to that read if I hadn't put in the work to decide he was probably town regardless)
Great post ngl
I'm prolly just gonna prodge til Osie is dead. Goddamn I wish I was a gladiator.
You've missed some posts by Tammy, I think. Maybe she's been reluctant to talk to you about her/their read on you, but she tried to convince me that she doesn't think you're scum here.
The way I read Tammy isn't based on her words, or her actions at all, it's based on how she thinks - more specifically, how she visibly thinks. When she's a wolf I've never found a post she's made that just makes me go 'Aha, there it is, that's what I was looking for from her' the way I have 6-7 different posts in this game. It's like she'll write the same kind of meandering paragraph, but as a villager you can almost see her thought process wandering and twisting through the words like a tapeworm slithering through a brain or something.
I think the team-based element of this game has given extra opportunities for that kind of read to happen, and there's been some team thoughts that really resonate with me/my team as being Real Things That Happened, too, on top of her thought process being transparent/visible in a way she struggles to do as a wolf.
I can go through and pull a bunch of quotes sometime before the EoD as my 'never lynch Tammy' legacy for people to look at, but I'm pretty sure she's dead in next couple nights anyways so probably won't matter. Just high, high degree confidence read.
Scarlet Celestial is V/LA until Tuesday, August 14th.
Foopme is also V/LA until Tuesday, August 14th.
No prods at this time.
If some part of this post is in error, please DM me on Discord or mention me in your team chat for the fastest response. Posting something in-thread will probably get my attention eventually.
Asdfghjkl;' same tho