Grape, short task for you: quote all my posts that suspect ScarletC. Only then you can say that it didn't connect to anything.
And no, I didn't vote her for playing differently. I voted her because she wasn't reading the thread.
I almost never refer to people as lock scum. It's a really bad habit I picked up from MU. No one is ever really lock scum without mechanical evidence.
When I said AtE, what I really mean is appealed to emotion, as I feel inclined not to lynch him for that.
Also Foopme sounds like scum coaching town there
I need to turn my filter back on so I don't just say things that immediately come to mind
I can't tell if you're missing the point entirely or trying to antagonize me. Yes you have expressed suspicion throughout, I'm aware that's part of your read on me. My point is that vote and vote elsewhere wasn't connected to everything that you were doing around it. You moved your vote off Celestial after one post. And said you voted her because a quote annoyed you for reasons you couldn't pin down. That appeared to me be style clash. From my perspective it looks like you knowingly removed a vote because you were swayed by an emotional appeal, voted a style clash, and then decided to go back to the well and vote me.
Is scum coaching town a thing? I've literally never heard that as an accusation before.
I can't tell if you're missing the point entirely or trying to antagonize me. Yes you have expressed suspicion throughout, I'm aware that's part of your read on me. My point is that vote and vote elsewhere wasn't connected to everything that you were doing around it. You moved your vote off Celestial after one post. And said you voted her because a quote annoyed you for reasons you couldn't pin down. That appeared to me be style clash. From my perspective it looks like you knowingly removed a vote because you were swayed by an emotional appeal, voted a style clash, and then decided to go back to the well and vote me.
Is scum coaching town a thing? I've literally never heard that as an accusation before.
Where did I say I couldn't pin down that quote for reasons?
I voted her for that quote because she asked Tubba, wasn't it hypocritical of him to read Grape off of his activity when his own was shoddy.
Except in Tubba's read of Vox, he addresses this - that he can't really comment on Vox's activity when considering his own.
And then I asked him why he would hold Vox to same standards to himself if the read on Vox was meta. I also pointed out that he was reading Grape as suspicious for similar reasons to Vox (dropping off in activity), but didn't mention his own activity during that read.
So it's not hypocritical at all if it's a meta read. It annoyed me because I literally went over the same thing with Tubba before. Hence not reading the thread.
Sometimes scum have to hold themselves back when it comes to taking advantage of town, cause emotions are a real thing (???). I think shadow yelled at Terry and EternalLurker in Silence of the Lambs to stop fighting with each other because if they were both town, it was accomplishing nothing.
I'm not too sure about that read though, lol. It's definitely a fair assessment of what Osie's been doing, and part of it is probably confirmation bias.
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Will be catching up in a little bit, need to synthesize some team thoughts too, but I have some questions real quick:
Osie - Can you flesh out your two empoof reads? What did you see the two different times you read through?
Ara - You said you disliked post 166 for tonal memes, can you explain that? It looks like it's the wrong post number, and if so which one are you talking about and why?
In post 340, you say you don't like grapefruit's thought process on trobairitz - can you explain that thought a little more? Are you aware grapefruit was talking about trobairitz' read on me and not trobairitz' read on grapefruit?
In your first catch up post, could you talk a little more in depth about - your town read on Titus, the reaction to Osie's reaction to Voxx's vote on you, and clarify which of my posts was neutral.
Empoof - Would you have expected ara to try to read you or interact with you in a different way?
Sorry, I've been pretty preoccupied, first with the game I was hosting (that ScarletCelestial was in) and also with another game that I was in that just ended a few hours ago, so hopefully can focus mostly on this game!!
Still feel fairly disconnected though, but going to try to get a better grasp of the game moving forward - basically just defenestrating all but four of my reads out the window because I can't remember why I made them anymore, so here's where I'm starting at now:
Tammy
RE1031
Empoof
Osieorb - slightly more town than neutral
Scarlet Rage (note that much of this read is sheeped from my team) - You've been fairly passive/agreeable this game, too much so; the placation of it is not something that I/we're really expecting from your game here!! Also, I initially wanted to townlean you for your VCA stuff earlier, but actually looking at it, there's not as much based on it as I'd expect; a lot of it's based off of just RVS votes, which is ??? Would definitely expect you to be pushing your views all over the thread more as town!!
I think I'm going to ISO other people to try and get a read on them better instead of rereading the game and likely just ending up having my eyes glaze over; I'll probably start with the top wagon then go from lowest posters up, but feel free to suggest a person to ISO!!!!
Hi Ara.
One of the biggest wagons, grapefruit is started by me. You are currently chainsawing (rai) my ScarletCelestial vote. So just what more would you think I would need to do to push my views? That feels so divorced from the actual context of the thread.
Second, the expectation itself seems fallacious. As town or scum, you are well aware of how vocal I am.
Several adventurers burst into the library's main hall. Their leader starts barking orders to sweep the room, when large gouts of flame explode from the floor. Seconds later, charred bones and tatters of equipment fall to the ground. "Never gets old! Did you see that wizard go up like a Roman candle?"
@RE1031
Trobairitz's 145 and your response in 146. It's probably reaching to categorize it as I did, but it was a question directed at me.
Intimidate isn't the word I want. What I meant to say was that I'm more paranoid of an experienced player's ability to outplay me. I'm not voting Osie because there's still time in the phase, and I've pointed my FoS in their direction already.
In my previous games with Osie, they were more aggressive, this Osie seems far more reactionary.
@Osie, not to blow wind up your ass, but you strike me as a pretty good player. That doesn't necessarily equate experience, but that's my impression of you. Usually I find you more insightful and interactive, which is part of my read on you this game. You seem like Osie Lite this game.
Empoof - Would you have expected ara to try to read you or interact with you in a different way?
Okay, some work to do, be back in a bit.
On break and it’s hard to say yes/no to that. I think the posts that I’ve made that she called townie were townie but for different reasonings than she’s given. Example being just now talking about me viewing the game as a team game (which is true, but maybe not as relevant to that specific post) isn’t why I’d consider my frustration and line on Osie townie. So I’m mostly pinged by what she’s actually expressed as townie by me. Everything else she’s posted is fine/good and if I was removed from the game where her interactions with me were gone i’d likely read her town more times than not.
It’s just a small thing that’s eating at me that ends up taking more focus than it should because of it.
If that makes sense.
It’s like a tinfoil read that I end up focusing too much time on when I shouldn’t
I disagree on account of Empoof; he views mafia as very much a team game and if he's town, then he's likely really just frustrated at seeing someone acting like this - I know I was too a little when I read that post of Osie's!! Definitely a slightly towny look for Empoof in my opinion!
honestly im not really vibing with the scumreads on him at all though and that wagon's bigger than i thought
Indirectly mentioned me. So I felt the need to further explain my scumread on him. I used "over the top" in my answer because that was probably a better term than what I could have came up with.
Meh, not the biggest deal, but yeah I wouldn't have considered that answering a question directed at another player. I mean, I get why that kind of behavior is problematic, but I've only truly done it once.
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On break and it’s hard to say yes/no to that. I think the posts that I’ve made that she called townie were townie but for different reasonings than she’s given. Example being just now talking about me viewing the game as a team game (which is true, but maybe not as relevant to that specific post) isn’t why I’d consider my frustration and line on Osie townie.
Why would you consider it townie?
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Isn't basing the read on thread presence somewhat hypocritical concerning your own thread presence?
It annoyed me. I honestly don't know to read it.
Feel free to take a stab at why.
Oh look you saying you had a gut reaction that you can't quite explain to this post.
And you keep deflecting back to everything else you said about her which is beside the point. If that vote was about a culmination of your read throughout the game it wouldn't have been so wobbly.
Thanks Empoof - I’ll trwpond to that bit later or tomorrow. Gonna try to get current right now in this smallish window I have.
Tubba - I really really appreciate that bit of rolelay you put at the top of every post.
RE - at the beginning of this game you posted your last scum game and said your activity is 2-5 times greater as townthsn as scum. I noticed you were in the anonymous game. I didn’t read the whole thing but am I right that you were ms. White, top poster who made it to end game? (There were some differences I think I saw in the beginning from that game to this, but when you gave us that activity tell I thought you were basically saying you had a hard time keeping up as scum.)
And you keep deflecting back to everything else you said about her which is beside the point. If that vote was about a culmination of your read throughout the game it wouldn't have been so wobbly.
That specific part I quoted was the last straw. Had I not been questioning her slot previously, I wouldn't have attacked her for that one post.
I also knew exactly why it annoyed me, but the "I honestly don't know [how] to read it" part was me not entirely sure if it was actually a scum tell.
Did you miss my explanation for the vote? Here:
I voted her for that quote because she asked Tubba, wasn't it hypocritical of him to read Grape off of his activity when his own was shoddy.
Except in Tubba's read of Vox, he addresses this - that he can't really comment on Vox's activity when considering his own.
And then I asked him why he would hold Vox to same standards to himself if the read on Vox was meta. I also pointed out that he was reading Grape as suspicious for similar reasons to Vox (dropping off in activity), but didn't mention his own activity during that read.
So it's not hypocritical at all if it's a meta read. It annoyed me because I literally went over the same thing with Tubba before. Hence not reading the thread.
Is this something you don't understand?
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@SRage your big wagon on me is two votes... And saying you started it while accurate misses that it was RE and Foopme who were vocally expressing suspicion of me, you just asked RE to vote me with you after a post that usually has a vote in it.
RE - at the beginning of this game you posted your last scum game and said your activity is 2-5 times greater as townthsn as scum. I noticed you were in the anonymous game. I didn’t read the whole thing but am I right that you were ms. White, top poster who made it to end game? (There were some differences I think I saw in the beginning from that game to this, but when you gave us that activity tell I thought you were basically saying you had a hard time keeping up as scum.)
I was Miss Peach in that game, town, killed night 2
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RE - at the beginning of this game you posted your last scum game and said your activity is 2-5 times greater as townthsn as scum. I noticed you were in the anonymous game. I didn’t read the whole thing but am I right that you were ms. White, top poster who made it to end game? (There were some differences I think I saw in the beginning from that game to this, but when you gave us that activity tell I thought you were basically saying you had a hard time keeping up as scum.)
I was Miss Peach in that game, town, killed night 2
@RE again it feels like you are intentionally missing my point. If that was the cherry on top of a string of things you were scum reading immediately unvoting doesn't make any sense.
It's not like I had done anything in that time frame that would have rekindled your scum read. You just went "buying something I was emotionally swayed by, weird justification for a vote on a long time suspect, immediately undo it and go back to your first wagon while trying to explain the previous vote.
As for the being nice tell you're proving my point. Shadow in Silence did that when the game got contentious. He wasn't calling random posts great.
Your reaction to that just looks so forced. As does your upvote.
And again what did you mean by saying Empoof looked like scum coaching town?
Sorry but I'm confused. I'm comparing shadow to Empoof, not shadow to Osie. Scum coaching town -> it's imo that playing as town takes a significantly worse emotional toll than playing as scum. You take things more personally as town. I've seen scum have to comfort town, make sure they're still having fun in the game, because there's a burden in being uninformed - finding a balance in having enough confidence in your reads to push them, but not to the point where you just want to be right. Probably most scum just stay in the sidelines, but some scum step in, I've observed.
Also, what upvote?
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@RE again it feels like you are intentionally missing my point. If that was the cherry on top of a string of things you were scum reading immediately unvoting doesn't make any sense.
It's not like I had done anything in that time frame that would have rekindled your scum read. You just went "buying something I was emotionally swayed by, weird justification for a vote on a long time suspect, immediately undo it and go back to your first wagon while trying to explain the previous vote.
No, my scumread on you stayed the same. I just thought I might be scumreading Scarlet incorrectly.
Do you disagree with my reasoning for my ScarletC vote? It's actually pretty black and white, so I'm curious how.
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@SRage your big wagon on me is two votes... And saying you started it while accurate misses that it was RE and Foopme who were vocally expressing suspicion of me, you just asked RE to vote me with you after a post that usually has a vote in it.
Well arguing against me having credit for your lynch only matters if you're scum, so I don't see the point here. It's still one of the biggest wagons and I still was a big factor in corralling people who expressed suspicion of you. Whether or not you call that starting it can be a semantic debate. Why do you want to have that debate though? What service does it do? How does it help you solve anything?
@Ara based on your list you don't seem to be mindmelding with RE much (outside of Tammy, who is probably spewed town at this point). Where are you seeing mindmelds?
I can't really remember what I was thinking when I wrote that, but I think there were a lot of points where I've either read something and had a particular thought about it and then scrolled down to see RE1031 say something in particular about it, or I've read their post and they've just said something that I may not have been consciously thinking but puts it into words really well!!!
@Ara
Could you talk with your team and tell me where the differing opinions on Osie come from? There are uh... rules about quoting your team and talking about what's inside your team chat so check those. I'm curious where they were unable to convince you otherwise, you think you have a better pulse on the thread than them?
That's pretty easy: it's basically just been me suspecting Osie in thread and my team going, yeah, he's probably town!! I'm not sure why you think they were unable to convince me because while I'm not completely deferring to them, I'm at least not willing to lynch them for today, anyway!
Can you paraphrase why your team thinks osie is town?
Problems with this vote count? PM me or DM me on Discord for the fastest response. Posting something in-thread will probably get my attention eventually.
Empoof - I don’t really understand why you’re so bothered by osie’s post. It’s feelsbadman when you get mislynched game after game and feel like you’re contributing to the loss of your town. I’ve seen several players get crushed after that kind of thing game after game and stop playing because for whatever reason their best reads scummy. I do understand considering it being scum ate, I don’t understand getting angry thoigh.
Osie - I really don’t want to see you mislynched this game and definitely not day one if you’re town, so please don’t get disheartened and keep doing what youre doing and I’ll try to do my part to help. I don’t think I’m really on board with grapefruit scum though either, so I’m gonna need something more solid there.
Trying to figure out if I wanna give tubba a townlean for derpclear on the dsychat thing. Similarish for whoever wasn’t sure on scum team size. (For the naysayer gallery yes I know scum can do that too.)
Heading out for date night, so this might be it for me tonight. Got more time over the weekend to get my reads a bit more solid.
I think I outlined why I was upset decently. I probably shouldn’t have actually posted that thing since it was slightly tactless but It Happened so whatever. I get triggered by AtE a lot, probably more than I should based on some passed experiences.
Also have noticed that recently I’ve been just getting more and more frustrated with games for stupider and stupider reasons which isn’t far to anyone here. So my apologies.
It’s also probably slightly hypocritical of me to be upset at him doing nothing when I’m arguably doing nothing
RE imma be real with you I’m gonna stop answering your questions or really interacting with you wrt my alignment or posts because it doesn’t really feel like you’re trying to sort me or gleam my perspective, just feels like you’re trying to find ways to scum read all my posts. Not saying you’re doing that as scum; just think that’s where your mindset is with me
I don’t really get a sense of urgency that you need to resolve me or care too much that other people town read me, you haven’t really shoved me that hard and it’s more just small quips over time trying to remind the thread your stance on me I guess?
Idk it’s just weird to me that your questions towards me feel mundane and that you’re not voting or attacking me
RE imma be real with you I’m gonna stop answering your questions or really interacting with you wrt my alignment or posts because it doesn’t really feel like you’re trying to sort me or gleam my perspective, just feels like you’re trying to find ways to scum read all my posts. Not saying you’re doing that as scum; just think that’s where your mindset is with me
If you feel that I'm searching for ways to scum read your posts, I'll say I wouldn't need to ask you questions if that were the case. For example, if you didn't agree with Ara's reasoning in townreading some of your posts but believed those posts were townie, then I feel it's within reason to expect you to explain why you thought your posts were townie? I didn't ask that question because I wanted to push you, but that there was no way for me to come to that answer on my own. I'll try to tone my aggressiveness down, but saying this doesn't really help?
Like, coincidentally or not, scum (Mrs White) did the same thing to me in the Anon Cluedo game I linked:
Idunno I don’t really understand this game right now. I’m like a week overdue to actually zen out and solve but I keep just being a bum instead. I’m at a weird spot where I probably have too many town reads in Tammy/trob/Titus/voxx/Ara/tubba but it doesn’t feel actively wrong and I throw SC/RE in there when I’m in a Good Mood so they’re probabky fine
What’s that leave like Osie/grape/Marko? Probably not the team with all of them shoving on each other slightly. I’ve toyed with RE/osie worlds and that looks fun. Maybe torb is actually scum that’d be Hilarious.
If Osie and grape are both town that’d probably be the most exciting gamestate
I thought the osie frustration wall was pure thought and showcased well all the reasons I’ve been frustrated with Osie’s slot and put my perspective “on my sleeve” in a sense - not really a lot to do with me believing it’s a team game I don’t think, maybe I’m missing the boat there but it just feels like a statement of fact about my play as either alignment rather than because I play a team game, that post was townie
I don’t really get a sense of urgency that you need to resolve me or care too much that other people town read me, you haven’t really shoved me that hard and it’s more just small quips over time trying to remind the thread your stance on me I guess?
Idk it’s just weird to me that your questions towards me feel mundane and that you’re not voting or attacking me
Why do you think my questions are mundane? They're questions to get a hold of your mindset, questions about things I either disagree with or don't understand. Sometimes I even ask them for the possibility of a new perspective that I might even agree on! I didn't find Tubba's responses explaining his reads very townie, it ended up being something along the lines of metas and pings that aren't fully explained. It's not to say he is scum, but finding him townie rather than some variant of neutral wasn't something I understood. I also didn't find your posts townie, so I wanted to hear your reasons.
I honestly thought I might have been going at you too hard.
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Okay then why am I not your top scum today and why aren’t you trying to lunch me?
I don’t remember you liking anything I’m doing and you continuously keep pulling up accounts on why I’m scum and how scum do things I’ve done
Why aren’t you pushing harder to shove me out of town circles? Why aren’t you trying to lunch people that would be my partners? Why are you just throwing small statements that I’m scum over and over?
I don’t even think we communicate that poorly together I just think your perspective on me is oriented in a specific way where you view everything I do as scummy
I don’t really get a sense of urgency that you need to resolve me or care too much that other people town read me, you haven’t really shoved me that hard and it’s more just small quips over time trying to remind the thread your stance on me I guess?
Idk it’s just weird to me that your questions towards me feel mundane and that you’re not voting or attacking me
Why do you think my questions are mundane? They're questions to get a hold of your mindset, questions about things I either disagree with or don't understand. Sometimes I even ask them for the possibility of a new perspective that I might even agree on! I didn't find Tubba's responses explaining his reads very townie, it ended up being something along the lines of metas and pings that aren't fully explained. It's not to say he is scum, but finding him townie rather than some variant of neutral wasn't something I understood. I also didn't find your posts townie, so I wanted to hear your reasons.
I honestly thought I might have been going at you too hard.
I don’t have specifics about tubba that make me think he’s townie, I’ve just only been pinged by his grape read which I can view as a townie perspective now.
Okay then why am I not your top scum today and why aren’t you trying to lunch me?
I don’t remember you liking anything I’m doing and you continuously keep pulling up accounts on why I’m scum and how scum do things I’ve done
Why aren’t you pushing harder to shove me out of town circles? Why aren’t you trying to lunch people that would be my partners? Why are you just throwing small statements that I’m scum over and over?
I don’t even think we communicate that poorly together I just think your perspective on me is oriented in a specific way where you view everything I do as scummy
I think your questions are mundane in that they offer a small window into my perspective that you’ve been actively disagreeing with. I don’t see an answer to me saying why my posts are townie being something that you would be able to read me properly on as it’s jusy a self reflection.
Questions you should have asked would have been like “what about ara’s play outshines the pings you have on her, why is she still a villager, what reads of hers did you like?” Because that offers a stronger sense of perspective and shows you actually care about the answer
Did you care about the answer I just gave about why my wall was townie to me?
Okay then why am I not your top scum today and why aren’t you trying to lunch me?
I don’t remember you liking anything I’m doing and you continuously keep pulling up accounts on why I’m scum and how scum do things I’ve done
Why aren’t you pushing harder to shove me out of town circles? Why aren’t you trying to lunch people that would be my partners? Why are you just throwing small statements that I’m scum over and over?
I don’t even think we communicate that poorly together I just think your perspective on me is oriented in a specific way where you view everything I do as scummy
Your tubba question is the single best thing you’ve asked me and it’s on a person that is impossible to articulate thoughts well on based on their play style
Okay then why am I not your top scum today and why aren’t you trying to lunch me?
I don’t remember you liking anything I’m doing and you continuously keep pulling up accounts on why I’m scum and how scum do things I’ve done
Why aren’t you pushing harder to shove me out of town circles? Why aren’t you trying to lunch people that would be my partners? Why are you just throwing small statements that I’m scum over and over?
I don’t even think we communicate that poorly together I just think your perspective on me is oriented in a specific way where you view everything I do as scummy
These are good questions. They're pointed and they're attacking your perspective and offering you a window to rebuttal and act. They're begging for more about your perspective because it's clear from the questions themselves that I don't understand the way you've been positioning and treating me with the gamestate.
I have not felt like the questions you've asked have been begged to be answered and I don't see any of them as "opportunities to show your towniness", they're all just "what's this read, what's that read, can you clarify this" which aren't how you get into someone's heart if you already inherently disagree with them.
Do you think any of the questions you've asked have been either in attempt to bury me or from a perspective of "huh maybe he's actually a villager"? How would you expect a townie with my current perspective to answer the questions you've asked me, and did I not meet those standards? What about my responses didn't do that and why aren't you hammering home those instances to try and really pick me apart?
I have not felt threatened by your slot at all and you've been scum reading me the entire Day. Your reasons for scum reading me seem to be stronger than any of the other reasonings you have so far. This is why I'm left confused.
I thought the osie frustration wall was pure thought and showcased well all the reasons I’ve been frustrated with Osie’s slot and put my perspective “on my sleeve” in a sense - not really a lot to do with me believing it’s a team game I don’t think, maybe I’m missing the boat there but it just feels like a statement of fact about my play as either alignment rather than because I play a team game, that post was townie
I agree partially. I thought you were expressing frustration about something when boiled down is mafia theory, aka how to play the game. That post was good, it was right, it was also objective. Confirmation bias probably made the post seem more scummy than not, but in the end I think it's something capable of being said by either alignment. The frustration seemed genuine, I'm not denying that.
No, this wasn't the answer that would have helped me. Sorry.
I don’t have specifics about tubba that make me think he’s townie, I’ve just only been pinged by his grape read which I can view as a townie perspective now.
That's a little surprising to me, mainly because by this logic, I would have thought his inclination to vote Osie if he were to place a vote would line up more with your views. I don't disagree with this logic, but I also think it's a really minor read with almost no push (so it comes with almost no repercussion if they are W/W).
Why aren’t you pushing harder to shove me out of town circles? Why aren’t you trying to lunch people that would be my partners? Why are you just throwing small statements that I’m scum over and over?
I was flat out told by Tammy that she didn't care about my read on you. If I recall correctly, it's been mentioned a couple times that those who have played with you wouldn't touch you until several days into the game. Okay. If my read on you isn't receptive by others, then there's little I can do. What I've attacked you for has been dismissed by others as within your town meta. I'm not going to get you today, I'm going to get you through flips. And if I'm wrong about you, those flips will help me see it.
Grape. Marko. I'm fine with those guys being your partners (more accurately scum in general).
Because that's how I play...? I throw in what I'm thinking, cause that's how I can enjoy the game. Eh, I can sorta see why that'd be annoying. But without doing so, there's no way for me to know if I'm justified in those thoughts. I'm fine if people disagree?
As for why I'm not voting you, it's for similar reasons to ScarletC. More of a threshold for me to be wrong. Plus Grape is just on a whole other tier of scumminess than you. I'm not really sure why you think that's a good question when I've made it clear my preference has been Grape this whole time.
Also. Me not asking about Ara has more to do with Ara being in my blind spot right now.
Okay, let's see. Why are you voting Marko when his train is unlikely to pick up due to being a lurker and you could be voting one of Grape and Osie where your vote might actually cause game movement? Are you voting him purely because you want him to be more active (which doesn't seem like it's going to work), or was there something else to it? One of your last comments on him was that his post calling Ara's tone village was villagery, did something change your mind on that?
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As for the being nice tell you're proving my point. Shadow in Silence did that when the game got contentious. He wasn't calling random posts great.
Your reaction to that just looks so forced. As does your upvote.
And again what did you mean by saying Empoof looked like scum coaching town?
Sorry but I'm confused. I'm comparing shadow to Empoof, not shadow to Osie. Scum coaching town -> it's imo that playing as town takes a significantly worse emotional toll than playing as scum. You take things more personally as town. I've seen scum have to comfort town, make sure they're still having fun in the game, because there's a burden in being uninformed - finding a balance in having enough confidence in your reads to push them, but not to the point where you just want to be right. Probably most scum just stay in the sidelines, but some scum step in, I've observed.
Also, what upvote?
Okay I thought that was two seperate comparisons. I thought the shadow one was about Osie's being nice to you. Gotcha. In that case your comparison between Empoof and him seems ill founded because Foop is doing the exact opposite here. Telling you to ignore Osie's emotional stuff and push him anyway. So the relevance of the comparison makes no sense.
As for upvote my new phone is correcting "unvote" to "upvote" and it's very annoying.
@RE again it feels like you are intentionally missing my point. If that was the cherry on top of a string of things you were scum reading immediately unvoting doesn't make any sense.
It's not like I had done anything in that time frame that would have rekindled your scum read. You just went "buying something I was emotionally swayed by, weird justification for a vote on a long time suspect, immediately undo it and go back to your first wagon while trying to explain the previous vote.
No, my scumread on you stayed the same. I just thought I might be scumreading Scarlet incorrectly.
Do you disagree with my reasoning for my ScarletC vote? It's actually pretty black and white, so I'm curious how.
Again that's kind of my point.
You're saying out of one side of your mouth that you aren't sure of your reasoning, but then shading me for calling you out that pointing that out.
And I don't disagree that what you're observing exists, but I don't think it's particularly scummy. Not reading the game is pretty NAI. I've mislynched too many people to try and lynch everyone who misses something anymore. I'll go back and take a look to see if this was a miss where it was advantageous for scum SCelestial but I haven't seen anything overly agenda'y from her.
@SRage your big wagon on me is two votes... And saying you started it while accurate misses that it was RE and Foopme who were vocally expressing suspicion of me, you just asked RE to vote me with you after a post that usually has a vote in it.
Well arguing against me having credit for your lynch only matters if you're scum, so I don't see the point here. It's still one of the biggest wagons and I still was a big factor in corralling people who expressed suspicion of you. Whether or not you call that starting it can be a semantic debate. Why do you want to have that debate though? What service does it do? How does it help you solve anything?
Well it mattered when I was typing my post and you weren't voting me. You continuing to shade me and push my wagon while not voting me made you seem scummy, especially given the way you started the wagon asking RE to join you rather than just doing it. But you voting before being called out on it is a good look though.
I don’t remember telling anyone this game I didn’t care about their read on anyone. That’s not very characteristic of me in general; I rarely even say that to people about their read on nacho. I didn’t mean to give that impression. We have different reads and I’m unlikely to change my mind right now, but that doesn’t mean I’m like I don’t care about your read because at the very least in helps my read on you.
I didn’t read all of that post just saw my name when I was scrolling down to reply to Empoof real quick before crashing.
Empoof - you did very clearly state why that irritated you; I was just a bit surprised that it did. I do completely understand getting frustrated by stuff in mafia. That was happening to me all last year for several reasons, but I took a long break after wild cards last year and I’ve been trying to change my emotional investment in games so that I get less bothered by things. I’m not always successful but win some/lose some.
I thought the osie frustration wall was pure thought and showcased well all the reasons I’ve been frustrated with Osie’s slot and put my perspective “on my sleeve” in a sense - not really a lot to do with me believing it’s a team game I don’t think, maybe I’m missing the boat there but it just feels like a statement of fact about my play as either alignment rather than because I play a team game, that post was townie
I agree partially. I thought you were expressing frustration about something when boiled down is mafia theory, aka how to play the game. That post was good, it was right, it was also objective. Confirmation bias probably made the post seem more scummy than not, but in the end I think it's something capable of being said by either alignment. The frustration seemed genuine, I'm not denying that.
No, this wasn't the answer that would have helped me. Sorry.
I don’t have specifics about tubba that make me think he’s townie, I’ve just only been pinged by his grape read which I can view as a townie perspective now.
That's a little surprising to me, mainly because by this logic, I would have thought his inclination to vote Osie if he were to place a vote would line up more with your views. I don't disagree with this logic, but I also think it's a really minor read with almost no push (so it comes with almost no repercussion if they are W/W).
Why aren’t you pushing harder to shove me out of town circles? Why aren’t you trying to lunch people that would be my partners? Why are you just throwing small statements that I’m scum over and over?
I was flat out told by Tammy that she didn't care about my read on you. If I recall correctly, it's been mentioned a couple times that those who have played with you wouldn't touch you until several days into the game. Okay. If my read on you isn't receptive by others, then there's little I can do. What I've attacked you for has been dismissed by others as within your town meta. I'm not going to get you today, I'm going to get you through flips. And if I'm wrong about you, those flips will help me see it.
Grape. Marko. I'm fine with those guys being your partners (more accurately scum in general).
Because that's how I play...? I throw in what I'm thinking, cause that's how I can enjoy the game. Eh, I can sorta see why that'd be annoying. But without doing so, there's no way for me to know if I'm justified in those thoughts. I'm fine if people disagree?
As for why I'm not voting you, it's for similar reasons to ScarletC. More of a threshold for me to be wrong. Plus Grape is just on a whole other tier of scumminess than you. I'm not really sure why you think that's a good question when I've made it clear my preference has been Grape this whole time.
Also. Me not asking about Ara has more to do with Ara being in my blind spot right now.
Okay, let's see. Why are you voting Marko when his train is unlikely to pick up due to being a lurker and you could be voting one of Grape and Osie where your vote might actually cause game movement? Are you voting him purely because you want him to be more active (which doesn't seem like it's going to work), or was there something else to it? One of your last comments on him was that his post calling Ara's tone village was villagery, did something change your mind on that?
I'm in a zoom right now (video mafia) but that question is INFINITELY better and this is how you ******* DO IT KIDDO. It shows attention and the things that bug you are apparent DO MORE LIKE THAT YOU ******* BEAAUTIFUL ANIMAL
I'm kinda drunk but **** it let's go
Marko I was hoping would just magically appear if I voted him. It's really tough because I can understand him just having a busy life and not caring about this game that much but an older scum tell for him was his inactivity. It's honestly just frustrating because if he spewed himself town I would literally hard sheep him to the end of the game and probably win or at least discuss ***** with him enough to know where to go properly. I'm hopeful that he's town based on what he's posted so far but at the same time the content is minimal and I could see him making all the posts he's made as mafia. It's very hard for me to deal with marko because of my relationship with him. I think he knows this as well. I won't lie I've been slightly waiting for marko to spew an alignment to ******* rekt this game in because if he posted more than 50 times I think I would know or if I was pocketed would be able to deal with it as time goes on.
[quote from="Foopme »" url="/forums/community-forums/mafia/796111-team-mafia-game-3-monster-manual-mafia-day-1?comment=631"]
As for why I'm not voting you, it's for similar reasons to ScarletC. More of a threshold for me to be wrong. Plus Grape is just on a whole other tier of scumminess than you. I'm not really sure why you think that's a good question when I've made it clear my preference has been Grape this whole time.
Despite us walling at each other you've mostly been talking to me like you believe I'm town and not been throwing out little comments calling me scum for the most part.
I don’t remember telling anyone this game I didn’t care about their read on anyone. That’s not very characteristic of me in general; I rarely even say that to people about their read on nacho. I didn’t mean to give that impression. We have different reads and I’m unlikely to change my mind right now, but that doesn’t mean I’m like I don’t care about your read because at the very least in helps my read on you.
I didn’t read all of that post just saw my name when I was scrolling down to reply to Empoof real quick before crashing.
Empoof - you did very clearly state why that irritated you; I was just a bit surprised that it did. I do completely understand getting frustrated by stuff in mafia. That was happening to me all last year for several reasons, but I took a long break after wild cards last year and I’ve been trying to change my emotional investment in games so that I get less bothered by things. I’m not always successful but win some/lose some.
Good night thread!
Night tammy. SOrry that it surprised you, it's just how I operate. I've been ****ed over by too many people from AtE and it's honestly just a garbage way to read the game and I'm slightly upset he's getting townreads for it since it reenforces the idea. I think I should have taken a break after both the smogon game and [ongoing] but here I am and I'm going to do my best (I guess... this isn't really my best but I'm here I guess) to push the game in the right direction
And just in case, I'll clarify, I didn't ask to discourage your vote entirely. I think there's a decent chance Marko is scum.
One more thing: why is Tubba's read on Grape more significant than his "I'd vote Osie", from your perspective?
@Grape
You didn't point out anything. You said I couldn't explain my vote. I did though, and you skimmed my reasoning. My observation was valid, but the vote was partially out of frustration because it reinforced my previous observations that ScarletC was asking for the sake of asking and practically ignoring others (which now that I'm really trying to remember, is something she did as town in CoD, so it is NAI). Are you just having trouble buying that I saw something that looked scummy on the surface, but after some reconsideration, might not have been?
I'll try to explain. Is there not a scum agenda in putting out loads of content, asking questions to create content, but not actually reading what others have said? I'm not saying that's what I currently think of ScarletC, that'd be a fairly surface level read, but yeah, it's not always NAI to not being reading the thread.
I don't really think I've been treating you as town? A lot of your attacks just seem like you don't understand what I'm saying, so I'm trying to explain my thoughts better, and then you just keep not understanding them? It's really feeling deliberate
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When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
Hoping to be back into swing of things over next couple days if they work. My eyes have just been hyper light sensitive and vision blurry, and I can't read anything on a white background without a blinding headache happening after a few posts of squinting.
0/10 do not recommend.
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I can't tell if you're missing the point entirely or trying to antagonize me. Yes you have expressed suspicion throughout, I'm aware that's part of your read on me. My point is that vote and vote elsewhere wasn't connected to everything that you were doing around it. You moved your vote off Celestial after one post. And said you voted her because a quote annoyed you for reasons you couldn't pin down. That appeared to me be style clash. From my perspective it looks like you knowingly removed a vote because you were swayed by an emotional appeal, voted a style clash, and then decided to go back to the well and vote me.
Is scum coaching town a thing? I've literally never heard that as an accusation before.
I voted her for that quote because she asked Tubba, wasn't it hypocritical of him to read Grape off of his activity when his own was shoddy.
Except in Tubba's read of Vox, he addresses this - that he can't really comment on Vox's activity when considering his own.
And then I asked him why he would hold Vox to same standards to himself if the read on Vox was meta. I also pointed out that he was reading Grape as suspicious for similar reasons to Vox (dropping off in activity), but didn't mention his own activity during that read.
So it's not hypocritical at all if it's a meta read. It annoyed me because I literally went over the same thing with Tubba before. Hence not reading the thread.
Sometimes scum have to hold themselves back when it comes to taking advantage of town, cause emotions are a real thing (???). I think shadow yelled at Terry and EternalLurker in Silence of the Lambs to stop fighting with each other because if they were both town, it was accomplishing nothing.
I'm not too sure about that read though, lol. It's definitely a fair assessment of what Osie's been doing, and part of it is probably confirmation bias.
Osie - Can you flesh out your two empoof reads? What did you see the two different times you read through?
Ara - You said you disliked post 166 for tonal memes, can you explain that? It looks like it's the wrong post number, and if so which one are you talking about and why?
In post 340, you say you don't like grapefruit's thought process on trobairitz - can you explain that thought a little more? Are you aware grapefruit was talking about trobairitz' read on me and not trobairitz' read on grapefruit?
In your first catch up post, could you talk a little more in depth about - your town read on Titus, the reaction to Osie's reaction to Voxx's vote on you, and clarify which of my posts was neutral.
Empoof - Would you have expected ara to try to read you or interact with you in a different way?
Okay, some work to do, be back in a bit.
Hi Ara.
One of the biggest wagons, grapefruit is started by me. You are currently chainsawing (rai) my ScarletCelestial vote. So just what more would you think I would need to do to push my views? That feels so divorced from the actual context of the thread.
Second, the expectation itself seems fallacious. As town or scum, you are well aware of how vocal I am.
@RE1031
Trobairitz's 145 and your response in 146. It's probably reaching to categorize it as I did, but it was a question directed at me.
Intimidate isn't the word I want. What I meant to say was that I'm more paranoid of an experienced player's ability to outplay me. I'm not voting Osie because there's still time in the phase, and I've pointed my FoS in their direction already.
In my previous games with Osie, they were more aggressive, this Osie seems far more reactionary.
@Osie, not to blow wind up your ass, but you strike me as a pretty good player. That doesn't necessarily equate experience, but that's my impression of you. Usually I find you more insightful and interactive, which is part of my read on you this game. You seem like Osie Lite this game.
It’s just a small thing that’s eating at me that ends up taking more focus than it should because of it.
If that makes sense.
It’s like a tinfoil read that I end up focusing too much time on when I shouldn’t
Meh, not the biggest deal, but yeah I wouldn't have considered that answering a question directed at another player. I mean, I get why that kind of behavior is problematic, but I've only truly done it once.
idk even know how that happened
Oh look you saying you had a gut reaction that you can't quite explain to this post.
And you keep deflecting back to everything else you said about her which is beside the point. If that vote was about a culmination of your read throughout the game it wouldn't have been so wobbly.
Tubba - I really really appreciate that bit of rolelay you put at the top of every post.
RE - at the beginning of this game you posted your last scum game and said your activity is 2-5 times greater as townthsn as scum. I noticed you were in the anonymous game. I didn’t read the whole thing but am I right that you were ms. White, top poster who made it to end game? (There were some differences I think I saw in the beginning from that game to this, but when you gave us that activity tell I thought you were basically saying you had a hard time keeping up as scum.)
Your reaction to that just looks so forced. As does your upvote.
And again what did you mean by saying Empoof looked like scum coaching town?
I also knew exactly why it annoyed me, but the "I honestly don't know [how] to read it" part was me not entirely sure if it was actually a scum tell.
Did you miss my explanation for the vote? Here: Is this something you don't understand?
I wanna lynch Scarlet today but Grape is a decent second and has me working with my townreads.
Then nevermind that!
It's not like I had done anything in that time frame that would have rekindled your scum read. You just went "buying something I was emotionally swayed by, weird justification for a vote on a long time suspect, immediately undo it and go back to your first wagon while trying to explain the previous vote.
Also, what upvote?
Do you disagree with my reasoning for my ScarletC vote? It's actually pretty black and white, so I'm curious how.
Well arguing against me having credit for your lynch only matters if you're scum, so I don't see the point here. It's still one of the biggest wagons and I still was a big factor in corralling people who expressed suspicion of you. Whether or not you call that starting it can be a semantic debate. Why do you want to have that debate though? What service does it do? How does it help you solve anything?
Can you paraphrase why your team thinks osie is town?
Grapefruit21 - 3 (osieorb18, RE1031, Scarlet Rage)
Foopme - 2 (Tammy, MarkoRaj)
Arapocalypse - 1 (Voxxicus)
RE1031 - 1 (Grapefruit21)
Scarlet Rage - 1 (Arapocalypse)
Not Voting - 1 (Tubba Fett)
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 1 ends at 14:30 Eastern Time on August 1st unless there is a majority lynch.
Voxxicus is V/LA.
MarkoRaj has been prodded.
Problems with this vote count? PM me or DM me on Discord for the fastest response. Posting something in-thread will probably get my attention eventually.
Osie - I really don’t want to see you mislynched this game and definitely not day one if you’re town, so please don’t get disheartened and keep doing what youre doing and I’ll try to do my part to help. I don’t think I’m really on board with grapefruit scum though either, so I’m gonna need something more solid there.
Trying to figure out if I wanna give tubba a townlean for derpclear on the dsychat thing. Similarish for whoever wasn’t sure on scum team size. (For the naysayer gallery yes I know scum can do that too.)
Heading out for date night, so this might be it for me tonight. Got more time over the weekend to get my reads a bit more solid.
Also have noticed that recently I’ve been just getting more and more frustrated with games for stupider and stupider reasons which isn’t far to anyone here. So my apologies.
It’s also probably slightly hypocritical of me to be upset at him doing nothing when I’m arguably doing nothing
RE imma be real with you I’m gonna stop answering your questions or really interacting with you wrt my alignment or posts because it doesn’t really feel like you’re trying to sort me or gleam my perspective, just feels like you’re trying to find ways to scum read all my posts. Not saying you’re doing that as scum; just think that’s where your mindset is with me
Idk it’s just weird to me that your questions towards me feel mundane and that you’re not voting or attacking me
Like, coincidentally or not, scum (Mrs White) did the same thing to me in the Anon Cluedo game I linked:
I'll mention more clearly, my only two townreads for today are Prof Plum and Miss Peach whose style I dislike but I can see her being quite the talkative lady
Miss Peach, I think we're completely incompatible. Remember from my first posts, I couldn't warm up to you. Think offering more explanations will get us nowhere, Miss. I see genuine and 'desire to solve' which I townread, but I also think we can't communicate properly.
What’s that leave like Osie/grape/Marko? Probably not the team with all of them shoving on each other slightly. I’ve toyed with RE/osie worlds and that looks fun. Maybe torb is actually scum that’d be Hilarious.
If Osie and grape are both town that’d probably be the most exciting gamestate
I thought the osie frustration wall was pure thought and showcased well all the reasons I’ve been frustrated with Osie’s slot and put my perspective “on my sleeve” in a sense - not really a lot to do with me believing it’s a team game I don’t think, maybe I’m missing the boat there but it just feels like a statement of fact about my play as either alignment rather than because I play a team game, that post was townie
I honestly thought I might have been going at you too hard.
I don’t remember you liking anything I’m doing and you continuously keep pulling up accounts on why I’m scum and how scum do things I’ve done
Why aren’t you pushing harder to shove me out of town circles? Why aren’t you trying to lunch people that would be my partners? Why are you just throwing small statements that I’m scum over and over?
I don’t even think we communicate that poorly together I just think your perspective on me is oriented in a specific way where you view everything I do as scummy
Is this peel?
Questions you should have asked would have been like “what about ara’s play outshines the pings you have on her, why is she still a villager, what reads of hers did you like?” Because that offers a stronger sense of perspective and shows you actually care about the answer
Did you care about the answer I just gave about why my wall was townie to me?
Do you think any of the questions you've asked have been either in attempt to bury me or from a perspective of "huh maybe he's actually a villager"? How would you expect a townie with my current perspective to answer the questions you've asked me, and did I not meet those standards? What about my responses didn't do that and why aren't you hammering home those instances to try and really pick me apart?
I have not felt threatened by your slot at all and you've been scum reading me the entire Day. Your reasons for scum reading me seem to be stronger than any of the other reasonings you have so far. This is why I'm left confused.
No, this wasn't the answer that would have helped me. Sorry. That's a little surprising to me, mainly because by this logic, I would have thought his inclination to vote Osie if he were to place a vote would line up more with your views. I don't disagree with this logic, but I also think it's a really minor read with almost no push (so it comes with almost no repercussion if they are W/W).
I was flat out told by Tammy that she didn't care about my read on you. If I recall correctly, it's been mentioned a couple times that those who have played with you wouldn't touch you until several days into the game. Okay. If my read on you isn't receptive by others, then there's little I can do. What I've attacked you for has been dismissed by others as within your town meta. I'm not going to get you today, I'm going to get you through flips. And if I'm wrong about you, those flips will help me see it.
Grape. Marko. I'm fine with those guys being your partners (more accurately scum in general).
Because that's how I play...? I throw in what I'm thinking, cause that's how I can enjoy the game. Eh, I can sorta see why that'd be annoying. But without doing so, there's no way for me to know if I'm justified in those thoughts. I'm fine if people disagree?
As for why I'm not voting you, it's for similar reasons to ScarletC. More of a threshold for me to be wrong. Plus Grape is just on a whole other tier of scumminess than you. I'm not really sure why you think that's a good question when I've made it clear my preference has been Grape this whole time.
Also. Me not asking about Ara has more to do with Ara being in my blind spot right now.
Okay, let's see. Why are you voting Marko when his train is unlikely to pick up due to being a lurker and you could be voting one of Grape and Osie where your vote might actually cause game movement? Are you voting him purely because you want him to be more active (which doesn't seem like it's going to work), or was there something else to it? One of your last comments on him was that his post calling Ara's tone village was villagery, did something change your mind on that?
Okay I thought that was two seperate comparisons. I thought the shadow one was about Osie's being nice to you. Gotcha. In that case your comparison between Empoof and him seems ill founded because Foop is doing the exact opposite here. Telling you to ignore Osie's emotional stuff and push him anyway. So the relevance of the comparison makes no sense.
As for upvote my new phone is correcting "unvote" to "upvote" and it's very annoying.
Again that's kind of my point.
You're saying out of one side of your mouth that you aren't sure of your reasoning, but then shading me for calling you out that pointing that out.
And I don't disagree that what you're observing exists, but I don't think it's particularly scummy. Not reading the game is pretty NAI. I've mislynched too many people to try and lynch everyone who misses something anymore. I'll go back and take a look to see if this was a miss where it was advantageous for scum SCelestial but I haven't seen anything overly agenda'y from her.
Well it mattered when I was typing my post and you weren't voting me. You continuing to shade me and push my wagon while not voting me made you seem scummy, especially given the way you started the wagon asking RE to join you rather than just doing it. But you voting before being called out on it is a good look though.
I didn’t read all of that post just saw my name when I was scrolling down to reply to Empoof real quick before crashing.
Empoof - you did very clearly state why that irritated you; I was just a bit surprised that it did. I do completely understand getting frustrated by stuff in mafia. That was happening to me all last year for several reasons, but I took a long break after wild cards last year and I’ve been trying to change my emotional investment in games so that I get less bothered by things. I’m not always successful but win some/lose some.
Good night thread!
I'm kinda drunk but **** it let's go
Marko I was hoping would just magically appear if I voted him. It's really tough because I can understand him just having a busy life and not caring about this game that much but an older scum tell for him was his inactivity. It's honestly just frustrating because if he spewed himself town I would literally hard sheep him to the end of the game and probably win or at least discuss ***** with him enough to know where to go properly. I'm hopeful that he's town based on what he's posted so far but at the same time the content is minimal and I could see him making all the posts he's made as mafia. It's very hard for me to deal with marko because of my relationship with him. I think he knows this as well. I won't lie I've been slightly waiting for marko to spew an alignment to ******* rekt this game in because if he posted more than 50 times I think I would know or if I was pocketed would be able to deal with it as time goes on.
BURY ME DADDY
Despite us walling at each other you've mostly been talking to me like you believe I'm town and not been throwing out little comments calling me scum for the most part.
Okay, I may have exaggerated that a little. You said you didn't care for the reasons, not my whole read.
@Foopme
"i mean, i would have rather caught mafia than found town"
^one of my favorite phrases I've seen from another player during mafia
And just in case, I'll clarify, I didn't ask to discourage your vote entirely. I think there's a decent chance Marko is scum.
One more thing: why is Tubba's read on Grape more significant than his "I'd vote Osie", from your perspective?
@Grape
You didn't point out anything. You said I couldn't explain my vote. I did though, and you skimmed my reasoning. My observation was valid, but the vote was partially out of frustration because it reinforced my previous observations that ScarletC was asking for the sake of asking and practically ignoring others (which now that I'm really trying to remember, is something she did as town in CoD, so it is NAI). Are you just having trouble buying that I saw something that looked scummy on the surface, but after some reconsideration, might not have been?
I'll try to explain. Is there not a scum agenda in putting out loads of content, asking questions to create content, but not actually reading what others have said? I'm not saying that's what I currently think of ScarletC, that'd be a fairly surface level read, but yeah, it's not always NAI to not being reading the thread.
I don't really think I've been treating you as town? A lot of your attacks just seem like you don't understand what I'm saying, so I'm trying to explain my thoughts better, and then you just keep not understanding them? It's really feeling deliberate
Hoping to be back into swing of things over next couple days if they work. My eyes have just been hyper light sensitive and vision blurry, and I can't read anything on a white background without a blinding headache happening after a few posts of squinting.
0/10 do not recommend.