(I’m gonna sleep on this, but like, Vaimes was kind of obviously posturing for a vanillaaa claim when he was doing stuff around my softing, maybe Dels/sheep saw that too and flipped Lissa for this very scenario? Ugh my brain hurts. Sleeping for real now. Sorry for the multipost)
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
dude it's totally different coming into the game hours after stuff has happened and being able to say "okay, cool, ##countervote" as compared to entering the thread and seeing that i'm being voted. now that i've had a bit of a chance (and i mean only a bit lol) to cool off, i still don't get why you have a problem with this, the priority in my mind was obviously to yell at you to unvote, there's no way that snapvoting sheep was gonna be on my mind.
Plus Dels has had weird mindset things going on. Writing paragraphs about obvious town reads, not instantly voting for someone fakeclaiming his role, getting cold feet about lynching shadow who's basically confirmed scum now.
what are you even saying? writing paragraphs about obvious town reads? you mean... on day 2? i didn't instantly vote sheep because we were absolutely not in a situation where that would ever be my priority! the only reason to place a vote is to get someone lynched, obviously i can only lynch sheep if you and KJ (or shadow i guess) agree, so the vote wouldn't... do anything. i'm assuming i would've voted after we finished talking, i don't really know. i don't know what you mean about cold feet about lynching shadow, i said that i was almost certainly going to lynch shadow today. that changed for obvious reasons.
I don't know if you actually crumbed anything, I just made it up to try and trip Dels up.
If you did crumb, please read through your ISO to find it.
lmao, but you didn't trip me up because i'm not lying so i just assumed that whatever you were seeing was a planned breadcrumb. the fact that sheep is like "oh yeah i did breadcrumb but don't remember when/where" after you said this is just sheep going along with it.
so ultimately i still had trouble falling asleep, but what i meant by "unvote me or i won't be able to sleep" is that i literally wouldn't have been able to pull myself away from the computer because i couldn't possibly have stopped trying to yell at you to unvote me.
i really thought i'd be able to handle a 2-week phase lylo, but that was before this day started and i didn't think i'd be a person under suspicion.
as it is, i'm really not sure how i'm going to get through this week.
that said, it's the uncertainty of what's going to happen that gets to me more than the psychological stress of it or whatever. i.e., vaimes, if you vote me, and the game ends, that sucks, but y'know, i get closure and etc. just the way you were voting me was clearly a case where i had to fight against it because your reasoning was just faulty (sorry) and I know that I have to convince you otherwise.
so it's not a matter of "if you vote me, do it during the day so that i won't be waiting for the game to end", if you vote me and the vote is final, then the game will end, i know that. it's just that i felt yesterday that your vote was not "final" and therefore i had to fight it. if you vote me and say "i am 100% certain i am never moving this vote" or whatever, then I'll know that it's over and I won't have anything to freak out about. I HOPE that won't happen, I hope I can convince you that the stuff you're seeing about me is just... how I play. but, OOG-me speaking in terms of preserving my sanity throughout the week, yeah, I really can't be in a situation where I'm gonna force myself to be glued to my computer/phone trying to change your mind.
So I'd ask that you take the time, and we can talk, and I know that if you re-look at the game through the lens of me being the doc, that my actions will make sense. And if not, then, well, that'd suck for me, and I'd be pretty annoyed we lost after what seemed to be a game that was on track for a win, but I've really done everything I can for this game and put all my cards on the table, so it'd be what it is I suppose.
In regards to Shadow's posts, I'm... actually kind of surprised. But I suppose I shouldn't be. I didn't expect shadow to vote for Vaimes, but then again, if shadow is town, he's absolutely right that only one of sheep and myself can be scum, and Vaimes would have to be the other. (Unless, as he said, it's actually me and sheep and uhhhhhhhh I mean whatever, it isn't)
What I was gonna say when I woke up, 'cause I was thinking about it last night, is that if Vaimes was 100% set on voting me, then I'd have to just hope that Vaimes/Sheep is the team and therefore assume Shadow is town after all and try to convince him that it's sheep/vaimes, which would be... a really stupid and silly scenario.
But I guess from Shadow's PoV, I wouldn't have to do that.
So all I can say is, Shadow, if you are town, then yes it's vaimes and sheep. But I don't think that's the case, I'm really assuming Vaimes is the one I have to convince here.
I have Doubts that this comes from a real town Doc.
Also still kinda think sheep scumreading KJ is a town derp rather than like. An intentional scum thing.
I literally said that I was trying to play up the "oh i don't think about role stuff" angle!
That's one of the clearest examples of it!
Of course I thought about a roleblocker, I was trying to avoid them every night!
I was really worried that it'd be super see-through but I legit say stuff like that when I'm vanilla so I went with it!
I can see, in retrospect, how it can look inconsistent, but in my defense, I didn't think I'd ever be grilled, I thought I was either a) not gonna be a major suspect or b) if i was, that i'd claim and it'd be okay.
Everything points to shadow/Dels. Biggest recent things are Dels lynching shadow over Hunger in order to focus on sheep in LyLo, and shadow’s “I will never lynch Vaimes before a Dels scumflip, lol vote Vaimes” nonsense when Dels is still likely scum from his PoV.
Shadow is going to come in and hammer, and that'll be on you. Sorry, I don't mean to be harsh, I just... won't take the blame for it. Good game and everything, I guess it's my own fault for voting wrong yesterday, but... yeah.
@KJ: Vaimes doesn't make any sense as scum here. If it were Vaimes/Sheep, there'd be no need to do any of this, they'd just get Shadow mislynched and win. So this is over.
like, come on vaimes, i get that the sheep/nancy stuff doesn't look w/w, that was literally what I said, I am the one who quoted all their posts and explained that stuff.
i get that you'd think sheep was town for that, but ultimately that evidence just doesn't hold up. i don't really see how you can think that sheep is town here.
after i said "if you vote and it's 100% then it's final and i'll accept it" i figured you voting meant you were locked in and i was trying to accept that the game was gonna end
then you unvote
i mean you can do what you want and i'm a sucker for not being able to let go but my god
and WHY vote shadow, my god, you have to vote either me or sheep, you can't think the team is shadow/me and vote shadow?
the way you say this implies you don't even think i am scum!
"fault"
if i was scum with shadow, it wouldn't be my "fault" he's alive, it's only a fault if i ****ed up by voting a townie over a scum
The way I say this implies I am certainly not the only one to blame if I'm wrong. Losing or winning is a group effort.
yes, you are right. i said i was being harsh. i'm sorry. i fully admit it's also my fault for voting wrong yesterday and/or for playing PR wrong (which I don't think I did, I was pretty happy with the way I covered it up and I don't think I was ever going to be nightkilled). i don't know, can you blame me for being upset? you are voting me (or not idk) here when it's, like, i'm the doc and sheep of all people is the one countering me, and the team is sheep/shadow and I thought this was a thing that we all agreed on and that we were going to win.
lol what? The only possible teams are Dels/shadow, sheep/shadow or Dels/sheep. From your pov shadow is always scum anyways since you insist on believing in me, so what is this animosity to me voting for SCUM?
I honestly want to vote you and be done with it but PSBG ****ed me up.
shadow is the safer, 100% lynch, but I think we need to solve for you and sheep toDay.
Feels bad.
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
how is shadow the safer lynch?
don't you, from your PoV, have to lynch either me or sheep?
i guess that's not true, I guess if you assume that it's not KJ, and one of me/sheep is scum and the other isn't, then shadow must be with the other one.
which hey, is actually the same reason shadow used to vote you.
so... you're... not wrong?
but i think if everyone were to vote the "well this 3rd person has to be scum with either dels or sheep" then there'd be no concensus but uh let me think about it
lol what? The only possible teams are Dels/shadow, sheep/shadow or Dels/sheep. From your pov shadow is always scum anyways since you insist on believing in me, so what is this animosity to me voting for SCUM?
no, you're right, it didn't seem intuitive at first but you're right as i said above
that COULD be interpreted as "gg, i'm voting you because you are scum, and i know vaimes will vote you and the game will end"
but that's a huge stretch, especially since shadow had just said he thought it was vaimes, there's no way he'd that
it was absolutely a hammer attempt, it makes way more sense that the "gg" meant he thought he was winning the game
either that or it's some sort of ploy to... what, make me look like scum...? make... vaimes... look like... no... that makes no sense.
the only thing that makes no sense is the timestamp says 8:40 and your vote change was 8:35. that's 5 minutes. did he not refresh? i guess he wouldn't think he'd have to, since your vote "seemed"... final.
Eh, you guys could've coordinated it to try and ~townfirm~ you. I don't think he'd vote without reading everything.
We all knew shadow was scum anyway, so might as well save the sheep/Dels heartache to LyLo.
VAIMES HE TRIED TO HAMMER ME
I CANNOT BELIEVE SHADOW WOULD JUST TRY AND HAMMER ME AND YOU'D SAY "OH IT COULD BE A PLAN"
I think it's WAY more likely that his internet was slow or he was on his phone or something and thought the plan was final rather than that he faked it for some reason
it feels like you're trying to convince yourself i'm scum more than you actually believe it, you even said that it was safer to vote shadow and that you were panicking which to me implies you don't truly believe i'm scum (sorry if i'm putting words in your mouth)
it's just insane to me that shadow could try to hammer me and you'd still be like "well maybe it's a plan", it absolutely was not a plan, that was a hammer attempt!
I mean, it's a really great distancing attempt. I would never scumhammer without double checking the votes, and it's hard to miss mine. They're blue.
i'm assuming he was on his phone or had internet troubles or something (or site troubles? hey i just realized those seem to be done), because 5 minutes is a really long gap and there's no way he'd do it without refreshing to check, unless something went wrong. and your vote DID seem pretty final, considering you just voted shadow and then changed it to me, which implied you weren't gonna move it, AND i had asked you to only vote again if it was 100% certain.
I guess it's possible he didn't have all the pages loaded and voted on the fly, but that's still really bad.
Eh.
I'm gonna read a bit before work.
so are you going to leave your vote on shadow?
i guess that's okay, the team is confirmed (well, "confirmed", but there's absolutely no way that was a town vote from shadow) to be shadow/sheep
so the question will just be, which do we lynch today. i don't think it matters, there's absolutely nothing that can change the order we lynch them, so it's pretty much a formality at this point.
(again, assuming you don't still think i'm scum, which i'm going to assume gets cleared up here because they literally just tried to hammer me)
We kill shadow. He flips scum. I'm clear. KJ dies, but there's a non-zero chance I die too since KJ hasn't done much and ~scum vig paranoia~. [redacted] will help decide whether sheep or Dels is lying.
[quote from="Vaimes »" url="/forums/community-forums/mafia/796109-team-mafia-game-1-the-death-of-stalin-day-4-the?comment=2089"](again, assuming you don't still think i'm scum, which i'm going to assume gets cleared up here because they literally just tried to hammer me)
The hammer carries about the same weight as the "I'm a PR so don't lynch me!" thing you've got going on.
Color me impressed, this is even better than that tiny hunt.
Vote Vaimes
Dels/sheep aren’t a team, which means you have to be with one of them.
Man...I can’t get over it, you played an exceptional game, like...jeez dude.
Ah crap no, let me think.
i mean, that's fair, i expected to get some heat for that, i just figured it'd be okay once i claimed.
dude it's totally different coming into the game hours after stuff has happened and being able to say "okay, cool, ##countervote" as compared to entering the thread and seeing that i'm being voted. now that i've had a bit of a chance (and i mean only a bit lol) to cool off, i still don't get why you have a problem with this, the priority in my mind was obviously to yell at you to unvote, there's no way that snapvoting sheep was gonna be on my mind.
what are you even saying? writing paragraphs about obvious town reads? you mean... on day 2? i didn't instantly vote sheep because we were absolutely not in a situation where that would ever be my priority! the only reason to place a vote is to get someone lynched, obviously i can only lynch sheep if you and KJ (or shadow i guess) agree, so the vote wouldn't... do anything. i'm assuming i would've voted after we finished talking, i don't really know. i don't know what you mean about cold feet about lynching shadow, i said that i was almost certainly going to lynch shadow today. that changed for obvious reasons.
lmao, but you didn't trip me up because i'm not lying so i just assumed that whatever you were seeing was a planned breadcrumb. the fact that sheep is like "oh yeah i did breadcrumb but don't remember when/where" after you said this is just sheep going along with it.
i really thought i'd be able to handle a 2-week phase lylo, but that was before this day started and i didn't think i'd be a person under suspicion.
as it is, i'm really not sure how i'm going to get through this week.
that said, it's the uncertainty of what's going to happen that gets to me more than the psychological stress of it or whatever. i.e., vaimes, if you vote me, and the game ends, that sucks, but y'know, i get closure and etc. just the way you were voting me was clearly a case where i had to fight against it because your reasoning was just faulty (sorry) and I know that I have to convince you otherwise.
so it's not a matter of "if you vote me, do it during the day so that i won't be waiting for the game to end", if you vote me and the vote is final, then the game will end, i know that. it's just that i felt yesterday that your vote was not "final" and therefore i had to fight it. if you vote me and say "i am 100% certain i am never moving this vote" or whatever, then I'll know that it's over and I won't have anything to freak out about. I HOPE that won't happen, I hope I can convince you that the stuff you're seeing about me is just... how I play. but, OOG-me speaking in terms of preserving my sanity throughout the week, yeah, I really can't be in a situation where I'm gonna force myself to be glued to my computer/phone trying to change your mind.
So I'd ask that you take the time, and we can talk, and I know that if you re-look at the game through the lens of me being the doc, that my actions will make sense. And if not, then, well, that'd suck for me, and I'd be pretty annoyed we lost after what seemed to be a game that was on track for a win, but I've really done everything I can for this game and put all my cards on the table, so it'd be what it is I suppose.
What I was gonna say when I woke up, 'cause I was thinking about it last night, is that if Vaimes was 100% set on voting me, then I'd have to just hope that Vaimes/Sheep is the team and therefore assume Shadow is town after all and try to convince him that it's sheep/vaimes, which would be... a really stupid and silly scenario.
But I guess from Shadow's PoV, I wouldn't have to do that.
So all I can say is, Shadow, if you are town, then yes it's vaimes and sheep. But I don't think that's the case, I'm really assuming Vaimes is the one I have to convince here.
also one last quote i forgot to reply to:
I literally said that I was trying to play up the "oh i don't think about role stuff" angle!
That's one of the clearest examples of it!
Of course I thought about a roleblocker, I was trying to avoid them every night!
I was really worried that it'd be super see-through but I legit say stuff like that when I'm vanilla so I went with it!
I can see, in retrospect, how it can look inconsistent, but in my defense, I didn't think I'd ever be grilled, I thought I was either a) not gonna be a major suspect or b) if i was, that i'd claim and it'd be okay.
I really wanted the Dels/sheep thing to be easy, but I guess it was naive of me not to expect the Doc battle.
Unvote, vote Dels
L-1
Everything points to shadow/Dels. Biggest recent things are Dels lynching shadow over Hunger in order to focus on sheep in LyLo, and shadow’s “I will never lynch Vaimes before a Dels scumflip, lol vote Vaimes” nonsense when Dels is still likely scum from his PoV.
I did everything I could to convince you.
Shadow is going to come in and hammer, and that'll be on you. Sorry, I don't mean to be harsh, I just... won't take the blame for it. Good game and everything, I guess it's my own fault for voting wrong yesterday, but... yeah.
@KJ: Vaimes doesn't make any sense as scum here. If it were Vaimes/Sheep, there'd be no need to do any of this, they'd just get Shadow mislynched and win. So this is over.
i'd fight more but after thinking about it i just really don't think that's the case, there is a hammer incoming very soon
i get that you'd think sheep was town for that, but ultimately that evidence just doesn't hold up. i don't really see how you can think that sheep is town here.
It's your fault he's alive.
the way you say this implies you don't even think i am scum!
"fault"
if i was scum with shadow, it wouldn't be my "fault" he's alive, it's only a fault if i ****ed up by voting a townie over a scum
Merp.
Unvote, vote shadow
after i said "if you vote and it's 100% then it's final and i'll accept it" i figured you voting meant you were locked in and i was trying to accept that the game was gonna end
then you unvote
i mean you can do what you want and i'm a sucker for not being able to let go but my god
and WHY vote shadow, my god, you have to vote either me or sheep, you can't think the team is shadow/me and vote shadow?
I honestly want to vote you and be done with it but PSBG ****ed me up.
shadow is the safer, 100% lynch, but I think we need to solve for you and sheep toDay.
Feels bad.
yes, you are right. i said i was being harsh. i'm sorry. i fully admit it's also my fault for voting wrong yesterday and/or for playing PR wrong (which I don't think I did, I was pretty happy with the way I covered it up and I don't think I was ever going to be nightkilled). i don't know, can you blame me for being upset? you are voting me (or not idk) here when it's, like, i'm the doc and sheep of all people is the one countering me, and the team is sheep/shadow and I thought this was a thing that we all agreed on and that we were going to win.
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
how is shadow the safer lynch?
don't you, from your PoV, have to lynch either me or sheep?
i guess that's not true, I guess if you assume that it's not KJ, and one of me/sheep is scum and the other isn't, then shadow must be with the other one.
which hey, is actually the same reason shadow used to vote you.
so... you're... not wrong?
but i think if everyone were to vote the "well this 3rd person has to be scum with either dels or sheep" then there'd be no concensus but uh let me think about it
...was this a hammer attempt?
no, you're right, it didn't seem intuitive at first but you're right as i said above
i mean wtf
did he not see that you unvoted?
oh my GOD.
that's what happened, isn't it?
either that or he's faking it or something
vaimes, this is why you DON'T SNAPVOTE ME
Oh my GOD
We all knew shadow was scum anyway, so might as well save the sheep/Dels heartache to LyLo.
that was absolutely a hammer attempt
he even said "gg"
that COULD be interpreted as "gg, i'm voting you because you are scum, and i know vaimes will vote you and the game will end"
but that's a huge stretch, especially since shadow had just said he thought it was vaimes, there's no way he'd that
it was absolutely a hammer attempt, it makes way more sense that the "gg" meant he thought he was winning the game
either that or it's some sort of ploy to... what, make me look like scum...? make... vaimes... look like... no... that makes no sense.
the only thing that makes no sense is the timestamp says 8:40 and your vote change was 8:35. that's 5 minutes. did he not refresh? i guess he wouldn't think he'd have to, since your vote "seemed"... final.
am i going crazy, can someone else post
VAIMES HE TRIED TO HAMMER ME
I CANNOT BELIEVE SHADOW WOULD JUST TRY AND HAMMER ME AND YOU'D SAY "OH IT COULD BE A PLAN"
I think it's WAY more likely that his internet was slow or he was on his phone or something and thought the plan was final rather than that he faked it for some reason
it's just insane to me that shadow could try to hammer me and you'd still be like "well maybe it's a plan", it absolutely was not a plan, that was a hammer attempt!
Eh.
I'm gonna read a bit before work.
i'm assuming he was on his phone or had internet troubles or something (or site troubles? hey i just realized those seem to be done), because 5 minutes is a really long gap and there's no way he'd do it without refreshing to check, unless something went wrong. and your vote DID seem pretty final, considering you just voted shadow and then changed it to me, which implied you weren't gonna move it, AND i had asked you to only vote again if it was 100% certain.
yes it is ABSOLUTELY bad.
this is why I NEVER, ever vote quickly in lylo when i'm scum. even if the person has telegraphed and made it super clear, I still wait.
I couldn't ******* believe it when I saw it
mainly because i thought it meant we'd won and then you say "well it could still be dels/shadow" and i'm like wtf
(unless you vote me anyway at f3 which, like, I'm going to naively hold out that you're not going to do)
can someone else get in here and observe what just happened? i guess that's just KJ but still
so are you going to leave your vote on shadow?
i guess that's okay, the team is confirmed (well, "confirmed", but there's absolutely no way that was a town vote from shadow) to be shadow/sheep
so the question will just be, which do we lynch today. i don't think it matters, there's absolutely nothing that can change the order we lynch them, so it's pretty much a formality at this point.
(again, assuming you don't still think i'm scum, which i'm going to assume gets cleared up here because they literally just tried to hammer me)
We kill shadow. He flips scum. I'm clear. KJ dies, but there's a non-zero chance I die too since KJ hasn't done much and ~scum vig paranoia~. [redacted] will help decide whether sheep or Dels is lying.
Let's go.
The hammer carries about the same weight as the "I'm a PR so don't lynch me!" thing you've got going on.
isn't that... already confirmed?
if you were scum with shadow you'd hammer me. his vote is still on me.
wait you can't be scum with shadow, one of me or sheep has to be scum.
what are you even saying lol
Would you?
no i guess not lol
what could he do, come back and say "no, that wasn't a hammer, i just thought from that exchange that it was clear dels was the scum and
i can't even finish that hypothetical thought, so no, you're right, he's definitely not coming back