Vaimes
I knew I wouldn't have much time to post or read the thread right away and want to interact. I happen to know for a fact you are either misguided or scum so I'd like an interaction point with you and your view on me/the game state. Why's it so hard to explain a read? Also, if the rest of the game is as wall-y as this page...I might not actually read the whole thing.
That's nice, but I don't have that fact, and it's not really up to me to prove you're town.
I had a strong-ish scumread on Rhand on Day 1, then sort of thought his EoD was town, then he tapered off and was replaced by you. If you're town, please project.
This game is very wall-y and it's mostly Del's fault. I'd blame Gemma too, but divine intervention broke her laptop or something, otherwise she'd have longer posts.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
They hated the part of your Gemma read where you loved that she came around to Reg town, that you were pretty much just giving her points for townreading your slot.
that's bull*****, i said she looks town for it because she literally had the progression to continue pushing reg as scum - she spent the entire day basically saying that he wasn't really himself, wasn't as invested as usual, etc etc, listed him as scum, and then she totally turned it around when she did not have to. it would have been easy for her to just keep reg in her scumlist and she'd have zero problem getting away with that mislynch if she was scum since vaimes and shadow (the others who know reg) both agreed with it. so it absolutely is a reason to give her town points and YOU are the one simplifying it if you think its just "she's town because she townread me". i would've said the same thing about anyone who has a similar progression, and in fact I did, I gave nancy town points for setting herself up to push you and then just completely turning it around. i made that read based on reg being a player in the game who i happen to know is town, it has NOTHING do with the fact that reg is myself.
They thought the Gemma wall was a bunch of words to look like you cared while talking about the least useful possible target, and straight up wasting time.
i don't need to talk about this anymore. have they met me? have you met me? a lot of words to talk about a townread? ok. again, we've already discussed this and shown that a lot of people in the game didn't even have gemma as that concensus anyway. and i just refuse to take any more ***** because i went in order and started with townreads. and quite frankly i find it hard to believe that this is something your team actually thinks, it feels like they gave you a reason to justify the scumread and they're just sticking with it. wasting time? we have 2 weeks and i wanted to explain my reads as best as i possibly could. like did that time i spent talking about gemma get used up when i could've spent it on something else...? i don't get it.
They feel pretty strongly that you are a wolf and need to die.
but why? because so far it's just the same reasons you said days ago. gave gemma townpoints for her progression on reg. and wrote a lot about gemma, a "concensus" townread. and at this point i just don't believe that you/they believe those are strong reasons. because i just asked you for reasons why i should be "buried" and i get the same reasons you gave nearly a week ago.
I don't really agree with the bunch of words/wasting time portion of the issue with your gemma read which is why I haven't really talked about it before, but it... is what they think.
I'm sorry I... don't really know what else to tell you? These are the things my team thinks and they feel strongly about them. And I'm not trying to deflect my own role in the read but I have no way to really respond to "I don't believe your team believes this".
ok i’ve been waiting literally 5 hours to post, and no one has posted so i’m just writing this and c/ping it over whenever anyone posts. gemma, from now on please even if you’re taking time away from posting, if you see 3 of my posts in a row, please post. >_> this goes for anyone else too, if you can.
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i think lissa is just a wolf at this point.
i don’t feel any real attempt on her part to solve my allignment or interact with me.
i asked her to explain the reasons why she (and her team) feel i am scum and she gave me the same exact stuff she gave me a week ago.
like, a week ago i started by posting my gemma read and she said it was weird that i started with that (and then weird that i said i was excited to) and she named ONE part of the gemma read she didn’t like: that i gave gemma townpoints for ultimately concluding reg was town.
i ask her now, a week later, what are the reasons for me to be buried, she cites the same two things as her main reasons. it’s completely ignoring everything i have done since then. it feels like she can’t make an actual case so she’s just sticking to something really weak and outdated. (i’ve said this too but that’s literally playstyle stuff – i talk about town reads, etc. lissa knows this. and see above for why she’s simplifying the gemma/reg read)
beyond that i just keep getting the feeling that she is posting just to post. she keeps saying she needs time at her computer to post, she has a lot to say, etc, but whenever she does, i find its stuff that i just… have no response to. see: her thoughts about the rhand stuff earlier. (1604 no postlink just scroll up) she goes through my thoughts on rhand in quote chunks but all she really says in each of them is basically that she disagrees/leans towards the town reasons. i tried to respond to it and i just… there’s nothing to say. it doesn’t feel like a meaningful conversation. and that’s how i’ve felt about most of the responses i’ve gotten from lissa.
i said a week ago that i wanted to work with lissa because if she was town we should be able to get on the same page. and i just… haven’t got anything. i have a high high level of respect and love for lissa and i just think if she was town, we’d be getting along a lot better than this.
i should say first off i kinda do feel like i am posting to post to a degree
i'm struggling somewhat to get back into this game and really have been ever since my original trip, thought it would be better after i got back from second trip but have been stressed out by some unrelated stuff the past few days
also i feel really bad if you're a villager and it's kinda ******* with me
you're basically the only person itg i've really talked about with my team the entire day
and it's frankly doing some weird things to my interaction with the game
w/r/t the reg read part of the gemma read i recognize there's more there but i don't think it's really very.... meaningful given reg and gemma's dynamic?
not sure what to say about the rhand stuff, my read is what it is i guess
wrt roz stuff, i'm not really sure why you're taking ... me not having posted obvious lock town things d1 ... so lightly, like at least my interpretation was literally he was calling me a wolf for not lock clearing myself yet, which is pretty silly and i hope that much makes sense. like, i guess it's possible he was exaggerating, but i took him pretty literal, and that interpretation was explicitly expecting me to have made posts out of my wolfrange in d1 with a decent chunk of time to go. people calling me "lacking" and similar stuff d1 is an Actual Meme like i'm not joking and also something people still actually do as a serious read and it's bad, they have absurdly high expectations of my d1 as a villager and it's more than a bit of a sore spot at this point, but it's more believable when it's people familiar to some degree with me, the level of experience he had with me made it seem more like a wolf who had picked up a vague idea that i'm supposed to clear myself early and tried to take advantage of that not happening.
re: wheat:
i don't remember ever saying it needs further explaining but i guess i'll hit the links lol
ok that's not what i said? i worked through it mostly internally i think
clicking one of those links made me realize i've probably been saying "i did less than i wanted to because of [x thing]" for various x things for a disgusting length of time by now. i'm sorry
oh you said examining not explaining w/e
947 was the main coherent thing i had after reeexamining wheat, i think?
The initial vote on Wheat, the justification is... "Felt like he stuck out like a sore thumb among my townreads so I read him over again + why I backed off him and I wasn't really satisfied with it." It's... not really a lot considering he's then 2nd from bottom? Maybe I am missing some other posts but at a glance I don't think I am. Granted, day 1 read, it's fine.
i mean there wasn't any order to the tier
there was 4 people i didn't think were villagery
1 was null i had some degree of distinct issues with the others
leading up to it i thought about my townreads when i had too many, didn't really feel like he belonged there/like the reason i put him there was very good and without it there was the stuff there was before
i did look into him again? was the lw stuff later/recent i don't remember but it doesn't matter really. if that wasn't an old thing i don't think i really found anything new.
i don't really understand the initial vote q
my second vote was largrly because of the eod thing i thought i was pretty clear at the time
gemma did you ever explain what you were talking about wrt me re: roz? i'll come back and delete this if you do by when i'm done probably
Wrt lynching, I think it's sheep/Lissa + 1 of Hunger/shadow, would lynch either of sheep/Lissa as they both lock Nancy as town which I think just seals this. I can see the merit in lynching Lissa while we're both alive to shove on her since she's obviously a harder lynch than sheep. I do think this is pretty unloseable unless I'm wrong on you or Von and I don't think I am.
where did you being so locked in on this come from?
it might be a me problem but it is fairly out of the blue to me and/or more so i really don't understand it
i've completely lost the bead of this game i think
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Heh, saw that coming. I nearly quoted my post with a @mods to explain that saying "**** you" to Vaimes in this context is actually affectionate. (I don't need to say so to him, he already knows!)
where did you being so locked in on this come from?
it might be a me problem but it is fairly out of the blue to me and/or more so i really don't understand it
i've completely lost the bead of this game i think
Oh, I'm not locked in at all, it's just the way my worlds look right now. Part of the way I've been coming across is almost definitely a byproduct of having been playing on the phone for the past 2 weeks. I can't emphasize it enough, honestly. It really is torture. Everything starts to fracture. It's like having a persistent migraine. It becomes nearly impossible to read or articulate anything properly. I need a bit of time to re-immerse myself in the game, now that I have my laptop back, but I'll be able to explain things properly now at least, and I won't be as unstable afterwards.
You are/were a weak scumread. I decided I didn't like my townread on you anymore after I went through half your ISO and found things that really bothered me, which is when I posted 1601.
I don't actually think the stuff about roz was that hard to find, so I guess everyone in the game is just lazy!
(Except Dels obviously who is putting in a ridiculous amount of effort especially if he's mafia, lol.)
When I looked at how your read on roz evolved, I got a few heady notes in there of "your scumread on me is bad, watch me discredit you, watch me lynch you as the ultimate form of shutting you up". Your progression into voting him didn't feel like you actually believed that he was mafia so much as wanted to kill him because he had done something bad.
725 is your vote on him, and it's very soft. You laid out a very neat paper trail before you actually voted him, which smelled very slightly off, as if you were reinforcing that your read was reasonable despite not actually developing the reasoning at all, and as if you were only comfortable voting him after you had made sure that your push would be seen as legitimate.
Shut up Vaimes I can make posts that aren't walls.
@mods I'm not actually telling Vaimes to shut up, Vaimes makes the best words.
The thing about swearing: I noticed you have a tendency to swear in order to make your position seem stronger than it actually is. You did this a few times when challenged on something, by reasserting yourself while cursing. It's a fairly typical rhetorical technique that can just be a personality thing, and you may not have even been aware that you were doing it, but it seemed out of character from what little I know about you, it seemed consistently a defensive mood, and it felt bad to me for those reasons.
The badfeels were worsened after 1602, because your perception of the Rhand wagon mirrors your perception of the shadow wagon day 1 almost exactly, and I struggle to believe that that is a real thought from you two days in a row, especially when people have pushing on Rhand all game and you have stated a strong townread on him (and should therefore be more aware of pushes on him).
I may or may not throw all of this out once I do a deep reread of your ISO, but those are the things I was playing with.
Contributing to this was, roughly speaking:
1) the movement of my Dels read, which went from "don't feel good about this townread" to "feel good about this townread"
2) the movement of my sheep read from "maybe he's scum?" to "he's probably scum?", which then led me to decide to just roll with Nancy being town for now
3) the manner of your push on Dels/Dels' pushback on you, which gave me an unaligned read between you two
4) EoD1 votes that strengthened my w/w read on sheep/Rhand and gave me a weak w/w/w read on you/sheep/Rhand
5) the final day 1 wagon on roz, which told me that there is always 1 mafia in you/sheep/Rhand/Vaimes
6) PoE
All of which gives me a scum pool of you/shadow/Rhandslot/sheep that I feel pretty good about.
If you're town, then the team is either shadow/Hunger/sheep or I'm wrong on a townread.
Obviously you think it's Dels, so while we both start to immerse ourselves in the game again, go over some of his recent posts and talk to me about why they come from mafia, why I shouldn't be townreading him, what he's doing to pocket me, etc.
Talk to me about which of the other 3 in my PoE is/are town and why I'm wrong on them. And ask me questions about whatever stuff you don't know or don't understand, so that we can get on the same page here before deadline.
also i feel really bad if you're a villager and it's kinda ******* with me
I know it's easier said than done but... try not to think like this? It's just a game, Dels is a big boy, he can take care of himself, mafia is hard, it's okay to get stuff wrong (and maybe you're not wrong anyway).
Like, if Dels is mafia then it's in his best interests you make you feel bad for scumreading him or pushing on him, so you really just have to try to put all that out of your mind and focus on the reasoning that you have for your reads and follow that where it takes you, and if he tries to make it your read about anything other than the reasoning then that's his problem and not yours.
I know it's scary to think about misreading people, especially when they're putting a lot of effort into the game, but you can't let yourself go there because you will just defeat yourself and end up confused and not be able to follow your reads anymore, and when that happens you aren't a functional mafia player.
So just trust in the reasoning that you have and try to focus on that, and put OOG stuff out of your mind as best you can because it's not helpful and it doesn't belong in your reads.
They hated the part of your Gemma read where you loved that she came around to Reg town, that you were pretty much just giving her points for townreading your slot.
that's bull*****, i said she looks town for it because she literally had the progression to continue pushing reg as scum - she spent the entire day basically saying that he wasn't really himself, wasn't as invested as usual, etc etc, listed him as scum, and then she totally turned it around when she did not have to. it would have been easy for her to just keep reg in her scumlist and she'd have zero problem getting away with that mislynch if she was scum since vaimes and shadow (the others who know reg) both agreed with it. so it absolutely is a reason to give her town points and YOU are the one simplifying it if you think its just "she's town because she townread me". i would've said the same thing about anyone who has a similar progression, and in fact I did, I gave nancy town points for setting herself up to push you and then just completely turning it around. i made that read based on reg being a player in the game who i happen to know is town, it has NOTHING do with the fact that reg is myself.
They thought the Gemma wall was a bunch of words to look like you cared while talking about the least useful possible target, and straight up wasting time.
i don't need to talk about this anymore. have they met me? have you met me? a lot of words to talk about a townread? ok. again, we've already discussed this and shown that a lot of people in the game didn't even have gemma as that concensus anyway. and i just refuse to take any more ***** because i went in order and started with townreads. and quite frankly i find it hard to believe that this is something your team actually thinks, it feels like they gave you a reason to justify the scumread and they're just sticking with it. wasting time? we have 2 weeks and i wanted to explain my reads as best as i possibly could. like did that time i spent talking about gemma get used up when i could've spent it on something else...? i don't get it.
They feel pretty strongly that you are a wolf and need to die.
but why? because so far it's just the same reasons you said days ago. gave gemma townpoints for her progression on reg. and wrote a lot about gemma, a "concensus" townread. and at this point i just don't believe that you/they believe those are strong reasons. because i just asked you for reasons why i should be "buried" and i get the same reasons you gave nearly a week ago.
I don't really agree with the bunch of words/wasting time portion of the issue with your gemma read which is why I haven't really talked about it before, but it... is what they think.
I'm sorry I... don't really know what else to tell you? These are the things my team thinks and they feel strongly about them. And I'm not trying to deflect my own role in the read but I have no way to really respond to "I don't believe your team believes this".
ok i’ve been waiting literally 5 hours to post, and no one has posted so i’m just writing this and c/ping it over whenever anyone posts. gemma, from now on please even if you’re taking time away from posting, if you see 3 of my posts in a row, please post. >_> this goes for anyone else too, if you can.
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i think lissa is just a wolf at this point.
i don’t feel any real attempt on her part to solve my allignment or interact with me.
i asked her to explain the reasons why she (and her team) feel i am scum and she gave me the same exact stuff she gave me a week ago.
like, a week ago i started by posting my gemma read and she said it was weird that i started with that (and then weird that i said i was excited to) and she named ONE part of the gemma read she didn’t like: that i gave gemma townpoints for ultimately concluding reg was town.
i ask her now, a week later, what are the reasons for me to be buried, she cites the same two things as her main reasons. it’s completely ignoring everything i have done since then. it feels like she can’t make an actual case so she’s just sticking to something really weak and outdated. (i’ve said this too but that’s literally playstyle stuff – i talk about town reads, etc. lissa knows this. and see above for why she’s simplifying the gemma/reg read)
beyond that i just keep getting the feeling that she is posting just to post. she keeps saying she needs time at her computer to post, she has a lot to say, etc, but whenever she does, i find its stuff that i just… have no response to. see: her thoughts about the rhand stuff earlier. (1604 no postlink just scroll up) she goes through my thoughts on rhand in quote chunks but all she really says in each of them is basically that she disagrees/leans towards the town reasons. i tried to respond to it and i just… there’s nothing to say. it doesn’t feel like a meaningful conversation. and that’s how i’ve felt about most of the responses i’ve gotten from lissa.
i said a week ago that i wanted to work with lissa because if she was town we should be able to get on the same page. and i just… haven’t got anything. i have a high high level of respect and love for lissa and i just think if she was town, we’d be getting along a lot better than this.
i should say first off i kinda do feel like i am posting to post to a degree
i'm struggling somewhat to get back into this game and really have been ever since my original trip, thought it would be better after i got back from second trip but have been stressed out by some unrelated stuff the past few days
also i feel really bad if you're a villager and it's kinda ******* with me
you're basically the only person itg i've really talked about with my team the entire day
and it's frankly doing some weird things to my interaction with the game
w/r/t the reg read part of the gemma read i recognize there's more there but i don't think it's really very.... meaningful given reg and gemma's dynamic?
not sure what to say about the rhand stuff, my read is what it is i guess
wrt roz stuff, i'm not really sure why you're taking ... me not having posted obvious lock town things d1 ... so lightly, like at least my interpretation was literally he was calling me a wolf for not lock clearing myself yet, which is pretty silly and i hope that much makes sense. like, i guess it's possible he was exaggerating, but i took him pretty literal, and that interpretation was explicitly expecting me to have made posts out of my wolfrange in d1 with a decent chunk of time to go. people calling me "lacking" and similar stuff d1 is an Actual Meme like i'm not joking and also something people still actually do as a serious read and it's bad, they have absurdly high expectations of my d1 as a villager and it's more than a bit of a sore spot at this point, but it's more believable when it's people familiar to some degree with me, the level of experience he had with me made it seem more like a wolf who had picked up a vague idea that i'm supposed to clear myself early and tried to take advantage of that not happening.
re: wheat:
i don't remember ever saying it needs further explaining but i guess i'll hit the links lol
ok that's not what i said? i worked through it mostly internally i think
clicking one of those links made me realize i've probably been saying "i did less than i wanted to because of [x thing]" for various x things for a disgusting length of time by now. i'm sorry
oh you said examining not explaining w/e
947 was the main coherent thing i had after reeexamining wheat, i think?
The initial vote on Wheat, the justification is... "Felt like he stuck out like a sore thumb among my townreads so I read him over again + why I backed off him and I wasn't really satisfied with it." It's... not really a lot considering he's then 2nd from bottom? Maybe I am missing some other posts but at a glance I don't think I am. Granted, day 1 read, it's fine.
i mean there wasn't any order to the tier
there was 4 people i didn't think were villagery
1 was null i had some degree of distinct issues with the others
leading up to it i thought about my townreads when i had too many, didn't really feel like he belonged there/like the reason i put him there was very good and without it there was the stuff there was before
i did look into him again? was the lw stuff later/recent i don't remember but it doesn't matter really. if that wasn't an old thing i don't think i really found anything new.
i don't really understand the initial vote q
my second vote was largrly because of the eod thing i thought i was pretty clear at the time
gemma did you ever explain what you were talking about wrt me re: roz? i'll come back and delete this if you do by when i'm done probably
Wrt lynching, I think it's sheep/Lissa + 1 of Hunger/shadow, would lynch either of sheep/Lissa as they both lock Nancy as town which I think just seals this. I can see the merit in lynching Lissa while we're both alive to shove on her since she's obviously a harder lynch than sheep. I do think this is pretty unloseable unless I'm wrong on you or Von and I don't think I am.
where did you being so locked in on this come from?
it might be a me problem but it is fairly out of the blue to me and/or more so i really don't understand it
i've completely lost the bead of this game i think
very brief responses: (this is a lie it’s not brief, sorry)
@lissa: interesting that you say you didn’t agree with the part of the read that was for using lots of words to talk about a townread. who is this read coming from…? i know you can’t answer but that’s where a lot of my “i don’t believe your team has this read” comes from. you have one team member who i can absolutely believe would have an issue with it ‘cause they haven’t played with me. and another that shouldn’t have an issue. i guess you and i have never played together but you seemed to believe it earlier? this is the first time you’re saying it’s more your team than you. (i know there’s no response to “i don’t believe your team believes this” other than “they do” but its still how i feel)
i am glad you can agree that you feel posting just to post. makes me feel slightly better, and the fact that you admit i may be villager. your level of instistence (“bury”) just felt wrong. not sure if it means anything but i at least feel we have a dialogue now? it just took forever to get there.
its fine that your rhand read is your read, i don’t have a problem with the disagreement, just that it didn’t feel productive. again i know this is the sort of thing you can’t really respond to other than “well that’s how i feel”. same w/ with you disagreeing about the gemma/reg read. it’s not that you disagreed, it’s that you felt the point was so wrong it was scummy.
my thoughts on the roz stuff (and this addresses gemma’s post too) is that the way roz voted you is just very similar to the way i scumhunt day 1 so i kinda don’t see the problem with it. i don’t think roz was saying “lockscum for not passing wolfrange d1”, just it was a place to go. for me its not even about wolfrange, it’s just finding at least a few things to TR. i guess my problem is i don’t feel like this process should be that foreign to you that roz doing it would be such a surprise. i don’t agree with gemma’s point that you wanted to bury a townie as revenge for it – that’s uhhhhhh, if you’re scum i don’t think that was the plan, if you’re scum you were just looking for a good reason to suspect someone. i agree with gemma that something about the roz progression feels off, i just don't think gemma hit on exactly why.
also i don’t agree with gemma’s swearing read. that’s venturing into “mostly” “honestly” territory and gemma i can confirm that swearing is a thing lissa does. (idk about in games, but, as a person)
thanks for explaining your wheat progression
lissa i will be honest, i'm completely lost on, if my PoE of 4 is right, which 1 is the townie. i thought it was shadow for the longest time, now i'm less sure. if you're town and i am town then the team seems very likely to be sheep/shadow/rhand. do you think that is possible? i know you agree nancy is town and i doubt you think its gemma or vaimes. so basically is it correct to say the reason you think i am scum is because you still have the TR of rhand, and therefore the team is sheep/shadow/dels...?
also gemma: nice catch regarding lissa sasying similar things about shadow and rhand. to lissa: i don't know that there's much to "get" about the rhand thing. there's a PoE at this point and i think many have explained why rhand could be scum. i agreed with you about exactly which post from rhand seemed townie, but after everything else, it's just not enough evidence.
also: can confirm, i may get super tilted or annoyed or whatever, but obviously don't feel bad for me, it's a game, i signed up for it, etc. i get super into it, you know this. i love you. but, if you're scum here i am going to a) figure it out and b) shut down any bad line of attack you try to use against me. if it seems like i am more willing to attack you than you are me, it's because i am really trying hard to break the habits of only going for easier players. you are not an easy person to go after. but if you are scum, i have to. i am not going to just vote sheep or w/e over you because "well it's lissa and she's a good player and i'd feel bad".
where did you being so locked in on this come from?
it might be a me problem but it is fairly out of the blue to me and/or more so i really don't understand it
i've completely lost the bead of this game i think
Oh, I'm not locked in at all, it's just the way my worlds look right now. Part of the way I've been coming across is almost definitely a byproduct of having been playing on the phone for the past 2 weeks. I can't emphasize it enough, honestly. It really is torture. Everything starts to fracture. It's like having a persistent migraine. It becomes nearly impossible to read or articulate anything properly. I need a bit of time to re-immerse myself in the game, now that I have my laptop back, but I'll be able to explain things properly now at least, and I won't be as unstable afterwards.
You are/were a weak scumread. I decided I didn't like my townread on you anymore after I went through half your ISO and found things that really bothered me, which is when I posted 1601.
I don't actually think the stuff about roz was that hard to find, so I guess everyone in the game is just lazy!
(Except Dels obviously who is putting in a ridiculous amount of effort especially if he's mafia, lol.)
When I looked at how your read on roz evolved, I got a few heady notes in there of "your scumread on me is bad, watch me discredit you, watch me lynch you as the ultimate form of shutting you up". Your progression into voting him didn't feel like you actually believed that he was mafia so much as wanted to kill him because he had done something bad.
725 is your vote on him, and it's very soft. You laid out a very neat paper trail before you actually voted him, which smelled very slightly off, as if you were reinforcing that your read was reasonable despite not actually developing the reasoning at all, and as if you were only comfortable voting him after you had made sure that your push would be seen as legitimate.
I don't really have much to say about the believing he was mafia vs. wanting to kill him for something bad thing; I've talked about that progression.
The soft/paper trail thing and the voting delay is just... something I do sometimes, I think? Shrug. I develop things before I do stuff with them. Or not, it's pretty moodbased.
I do think my reasoning was pretty developed though? At least it was in my head.
Shut up Vaimes I can make posts that aren't walls.
@mods I'm not actually telling Vaimes to shut up, Vaimes makes the best words.
The thing about swearing: I noticed you have a tendency to swear in order to make your position seem stronger than it actually is. You did this a few times when challenged on something, by reasserting yourself while cursing. It's a fairly typical rhetorical technique that can just be a personality thing, and you may not have even been aware that you were doing it, but it seemed out of character from what little I know about you, it seemed consistently a defensive mood, and it felt bad to me for those reasons.
It's not really a conscious thing it's a personality one. I swear for emphasis sometimes and also when I feel strongly about things but neither is particularly conscious most of the time? People get surprised when I swear sometimes but it's fairly normal the chance I do it just varies super widely on mood.
It was more "wtf" than defensive.
The badfeels were worsened after 1602, because your perception of the Rhand wagon mirrors your perception of the shadow wagon day 1 almost exactly, and I struggle to believe that that is a real thought from you two days in a row, especially when people have pushing on Rhand all game and you have stated a strong townread on him (and should therefore be more aware of pushes on him).
I think I feel like that a fair amount? Meh.
I'm aware of pushes on him but they don't really gel internally/process well and they feel much more minor than they are.
I've struggled most of the game to understand why he was being wagoned, I think, and it isn't really just "I don't see people explain it" it's a "fundamentally I don't Get why this is a push" I guess
I may or may not throw all of this out once I do a deep reread of your ISO, but those are the things I was playing with.
Contributing to this was, roughly speaking:
1) the movement of my Dels read, which went from "don't feel good about this townread" to "feel good about this townread"
2) the movement of my sheep read from "maybe he's scum?" to "he's probably scum?", which then led me to decide to just roll with Nancy being town for now
3) the manner of your push on Dels/Dels' pushback on you, which gave me an unaligned read between you two
4) EoD1 votes that strengthened my w/w read on sheep/Rhand and gave me a weak w/w/w read on you/sheep/Rhand
5) the final day 1 wagon on roz, which told me that there is always 1 mafia in you/sheep/Rhand/Vaimes
6) PoE
All of which gives me a scum pool of you/shadow/Rhandslot/sheep that I feel pretty good about.
If you're town, then the team is either shadow/Hunger/sheep or I'm wrong on a townread.
Obviously you think it's Dels, so while we both start to immerse ourselves in the game again, go over some of his recent posts and talk to me about why they come from mafia, why I shouldn't be townreading him, what he's doing to pocket me, etc.
Talk to me about which of the other 3 in my PoE is/are town and why I'm wrong on them. And ask me questions about whatever stuff you don't know or don't understand, so that we can get on the same page here before deadline.
I think shadow and sheep are wolves.
My feelings on rhandhunger kind of stand but they're faltering pretty hard out of sheer recency bias? It's hard when my whole read is based on d1 and the landmark point of it is something that happened back in the first half of it even. I was hoping he would come back because I think I find his style fairly readable. Hunger seems much... flatter which is hard. Also continuity whee.
I don't entirely know what I want to do with Dels anymore. But I'm kind of confused worldwse if he isn't a wolf honestly.
They hated the part of your Gemma read where you loved that she came around to Reg town, that you were pretty much just giving her points for townreading your slot.
that's bull*****, i said she looks town for it because she literally had the progression to continue pushing reg as scum - she spent the entire day basically saying that he wasn't really himself, wasn't as invested as usual, etc etc, listed him as scum, and then she totally turned it around when she did not have to. it would have been easy for her to just keep reg in her scumlist and she'd have zero problem getting away with that mislynch if she was scum since vaimes and shadow (the others who know reg) both agreed with it. so it absolutely is a reason to give her town points and YOU are the one simplifying it if you think its just "she's town because she townread me". i would've said the same thing about anyone who has a similar progression, and in fact I did, I gave nancy town points for setting herself up to push you and then just completely turning it around. i made that read based on reg being a player in the game who i happen to know is town, it has NOTHING do with the fact that reg is myself.
They thought the Gemma wall was a bunch of words to look like you cared while talking about the least useful possible target, and straight up wasting time.
i don't need to talk about this anymore. have they met me? have you met me? a lot of words to talk about a townread? ok. again, we've already discussed this and shown that a lot of people in the game didn't even have gemma as that concensus anyway. and i just refuse to take any more ***** because i went in order and started with townreads. and quite frankly i find it hard to believe that this is something your team actually thinks, it feels like they gave you a reason to justify the scumread and they're just sticking with it. wasting time? we have 2 weeks and i wanted to explain my reads as best as i possibly could. like did that time i spent talking about gemma get used up when i could've spent it on something else...? i don't get it.
They feel pretty strongly that you are a wolf and need to die.
but why? because so far it's just the same reasons you said days ago. gave gemma townpoints for her progression on reg. and wrote a lot about gemma, a "concensus" townread. and at this point i just don't believe that you/they believe those are strong reasons. because i just asked you for reasons why i should be "buried" and i get the same reasons you gave nearly a week ago.
I don't really agree with the bunch of words/wasting time portion of the issue with your gemma read which is why I haven't really talked about it before, but it... is what they think.
I'm sorry I... don't really know what else to tell you? These are the things my team thinks and they feel strongly about them. And I'm not trying to deflect my own role in the read but I have no way to really respond to "I don't believe your team believes this".
ok i’ve been waiting literally 5 hours to post, and no one has posted so i’m just writing this and c/ping it over whenever anyone posts. gemma, from now on please even if you’re taking time away from posting, if you see 3 of my posts in a row, please post. >_> this goes for anyone else too, if you can.
-------------------------
i think lissa is just a wolf at this point.
i don’t feel any real attempt on her part to solve my allignment or interact with me.
i asked her to explain the reasons why she (and her team) feel i am scum and she gave me the same exact stuff she gave me a week ago.
like, a week ago i started by posting my gemma read and she said it was weird that i started with that (and then weird that i said i was excited to) and she named ONE part of the gemma read she didn’t like: that i gave gemma townpoints for ultimately concluding reg was town.
i ask her now, a week later, what are the reasons for me to be buried, she cites the same two things as her main reasons. it’s completely ignoring everything i have done since then. it feels like she can’t make an actual case so she’s just sticking to something really weak and outdated. (i’ve said this too but that’s literally playstyle stuff – i talk about town reads, etc. lissa knows this. and see above for why she’s simplifying the gemma/reg read)
beyond that i just keep getting the feeling that she is posting just to post. she keeps saying she needs time at her computer to post, she has a lot to say, etc, but whenever she does, i find its stuff that i just… have no response to. see: her thoughts about the rhand stuff earlier. (1604 no postlink just scroll up) she goes through my thoughts on rhand in quote chunks but all she really says in each of them is basically that she disagrees/leans towards the town reasons. i tried to respond to it and i just… there’s nothing to say. it doesn’t feel like a meaningful conversation. and that’s how i’ve felt about most of the responses i’ve gotten from lissa.
i said a week ago that i wanted to work with lissa because if she was town we should be able to get on the same page. and i just… haven’t got anything. i have a high high level of respect and love for lissa and i just think if she was town, we’d be getting along a lot better than this.
i should say first off i kinda do feel like i am posting to post to a degree
i'm struggling somewhat to get back into this game and really have been ever since my original trip, thought it would be better after i got back from second trip but have been stressed out by some unrelated stuff the past few days
also i feel really bad if you're a villager and it's kinda ******* with me
you're basically the only person itg i've really talked about with my team the entire day
and it's frankly doing some weird things to my interaction with the game
w/r/t the reg read part of the gemma read i recognize there's more there but i don't think it's really very.... meaningful given reg and gemma's dynamic?
not sure what to say about the rhand stuff, my read is what it is i guess
wrt roz stuff, i'm not really sure why you're taking ... me not having posted obvious lock town things d1 ... so lightly, like at least my interpretation was literally he was calling me a wolf for not lock clearing myself yet, which is pretty silly and i hope that much makes sense. like, i guess it's possible he was exaggerating, but i took him pretty literal, and that interpretation was explicitly expecting me to have made posts out of my wolfrange in d1 with a decent chunk of time to go. people calling me "lacking" and similar stuff d1 is an Actual Meme like i'm not joking and also something people still actually do as a serious read and it's bad, they have absurdly high expectations of my d1 as a villager and it's more than a bit of a sore spot at this point, but it's more believable when it's people familiar to some degree with me, the level of experience he had with me made it seem more like a wolf who had picked up a vague idea that i'm supposed to clear myself early and tried to take advantage of that not happening.
re: wheat:
i don't remember ever saying it needs further explaining but i guess i'll hit the links lol
ok that's not what i said? i worked through it mostly internally i think
clicking one of those links made me realize i've probably been saying "i did less than i wanted to because of [x thing]" for various x things for a disgusting length of time by now. i'm sorry
oh you said examining not explaining w/e
947 was the main coherent thing i had after reeexamining wheat, i think?
The initial vote on Wheat, the justification is... "Felt like he stuck out like a sore thumb among my townreads so I read him over again + why I backed off him and I wasn't really satisfied with it." It's... not really a lot considering he's then 2nd from bottom? Maybe I am missing some other posts but at a glance I don't think I am. Granted, day 1 read, it's fine.
i mean there wasn't any order to the tier
there was 4 people i didn't think were villagery
1 was null i had some degree of distinct issues with the others
leading up to it i thought about my townreads when i had too many, didn't really feel like he belonged there/like the reason i put him there was very good and without it there was the stuff there was before
i did look into him again? was the lw stuff later/recent i don't remember but it doesn't matter really. if that wasn't an old thing i don't think i really found anything new.
i don't really understand the initial vote q
my second vote was largrly because of the eod thing i thought i was pretty clear at the time
gemma did you ever explain what you were talking about wrt me re: roz? i'll come back and delete this if you do by when i'm done probably
Wrt lynching, I think it's sheep/Lissa + 1 of Hunger/shadow, would lynch either of sheep/Lissa as they both lock Nancy as town which I think just seals this. I can see the merit in lynching Lissa while we're both alive to shove on her since she's obviously a harder lynch than sheep. I do think this is pretty unloseable unless I'm wrong on you or Von and I don't think I am.
where did you being so locked in on this come from?
it might be a me problem but it is fairly out of the blue to me and/or more so i really don't understand it
i've completely lost the bead of this game i think
very brief responses: (this is a lie it’s not brief, sorry)
@lissa: interesting that you say you didn’t agree with the part of the read that was for using lots of words to talk about a townread. who is this read coming from…? i know you can’t answer but that’s where a lot of my “i don’t believe your team has this read” comes from. you have one team member who i can absolutely believe would have an issue with it ‘cause they haven’t played with me. and another that shouldn’t have an issue. i guess you and i have never played together but you seemed to believe it earlier? this is the first time you’re saying it’s more your team than you. (i know there’s no response to “i don’t believe your team believes this” other than “they do” but its still how i feel)
I shared the part about choosing to talk about gemma first and about the specific element of the read re: Reg? I feel significantly less good about the first part of that at this point though. I didn't ever really agree with the part about you choosing to do it at all.
i am glad you can agree that you feel posting just to post. makes me feel slightly better, and the fact that you admit i may be villager. your level of instistence (“bury”) just felt wrong. not sure if it means anything but i at least feel we have a dialogue now? it just took forever to get there.
its fine that your rhand read is your read, i don’t have a problem with the disagreement, just that it didn’t feel productive. again i know this is the sort of thing you can’t really respond to other than “well that’s how i feel”. same w/ with you disagreeing about the gemma/reg read. it’s not that you disagreed, it’s that you felt the point was so wrong it was scummy.
My team feels stronger than I do and I think attempting to convey that has gotten muddled up and come through... weird.
I'd like to be more productive about the Rhand read for sure I don't really know how to go about it.
my thoughts on the roz stuff (and this addresses gemma’s post too) is that the way roz voted you is just very similar to the way i scumhunt day 1 so i kinda don’t see the problem with it. i don’t think roz was saying “lockscum for not passing wolfrange d1”, just it was a place to go. for me its not even about wolfrange, it’s just finding at least a few things to TR. i guess my problem is i don’t feel like this process should be that foreign to you that roz doing it would be such a surprise. i don’t agree with gemma’s point that you wanted to bury a townie as revenge for it – that’s uhhhhhh, if you’re scum i don’t think that was the plan, if you’re scum you were just looking for a good reason to suspect someone. i agree with gemma that something about the roz progression feels off, i just don't think gemma hit on exactly why.
I mean a "hasn't done villagery things" process isn't foreign to me, that would be significantly different to me. I also don't think it would have been particularly correct to apply to me but it wouldn't have been something I considered an unreasonable process or unreasonable to have applied to me at that point even.
I took "hasn't done things that make it OBVIOUS" or whatever it was very literally though, there's a world of difference between "villagery things" and "obvious lock clearing things" to me.
Also people applying "not villagery enough yet" reads of all kinds at that point in a game is kind of a sore spot but I recognize that can be people's perception, this was just an extreme version from someone who sounded like he got the idea to apply it to me secondhand somewhere at some point.
also i don’t agree with gemma’s swearing read. that’s venturing into “mostly” “honestly” territory and gemma i can confirm that swearing is a thing lissa does. (idk about in games, but, as a person)
thanks for explaining your wheat progression
lissa i will be honest, i'm completely lost on, if my PoE of 4 is right, which 1 is the townie. i thought it was shadow for the longest time, now i'm less sure. if you're town and i am town then the team seems very likely to be sheep/shadow/rhand. do you think that is possible? i know you agree nancy is town and i doubt you think its gemma or vaimes. so basically is it correct to say the reason you think i am scum is because you still have the TR of rhand, and therefore the team is sheep/shadow/dels...?
I still have the townread on Rhand to... some extent yes and even as that feels increasingly stale I also don't think Shadow/Rhand fit well as a team.
Like I said I'm kind of faltering on my read on you but I'm struggling with the team in that world.
I might just be giving style ***** for Rhand + the shadow/Rhand stuff too much weight/credit I guess?
also gemma: nice catch regarding lissa sasying similar things about shadow and rhand. to lissa: i don't know that there's much to "get" about the rhand thing. there's a PoE at this point and i think many have explained why rhand could be scum. i agreed with you about exactly which post from rhand seemed townie, but after everything else, it's just not enough evidence.
Yeah I guess that's just it why it's not gelling, it's just hard to interact with? But I get it I operate on poe pretty heavily it hadn't really clicked that was happening there until now.
also: can confirm, i may get super tilted or annoyed or whatever, but obviously don't feel bad for me, it's a game, i signed up for it, etc. i get super into it, you know this. i love you. but, if you're scum here i am going to a) figure it out and b) shut down any bad line of attack you try to use against me. if it seems like i am more willing to attack you than you are me, it's because i am really trying hard to break the habits of only going for easier players. you are not an easy person to go after. but if you are scum, i have to. i am not going to just vote sheep or w/e over you because "well it's lissa and she's a good player and i'd feel bad".
I definitely feel that, I have rather similar habits to some degree (a lot of degree) and I've begun attempting to break them in the past few months.
Pushing you is fairly uncomfortable if it's not kind of obvious and I'm kind of concerned I'm overcompensating.
a lot of the things you are saying are reasonable and i want to give you the benefit of the doubt. like that it was more a team read thing and it got muddled, and just the parts where you admit you really are lost/aimless about certain things. i am aware that these are excuses wolves can give so someone slap me if i'm being naive >_> (and also if lissa is scum and i'm scumreading her because of her strange insistence against me, it'd make sense for her to dial it back)
i get the clarification that roz perhaps took it a bit too far and didn't just say you hadn't done a towny thing, she said you haven't been OBVIOUS yet.
my team talked about the shadow/rhand stuff so check it out. if you're town then they almost have to be w/w. i found that hard to believe a week ago but i'm willing to consider it now, not because it looks w/w to me, just because i'm not sure it's as impossible as it seems (considering they didn't end on each other and then it didn't pick back up as much today. and rhand's progression onto shadow was weaker than his gemma one iirc.) and if you or sheep are town then it may be the case. i have nothing else to say about rhand either because i put everything into that one post and he hasn't been here. we have to play the waiting game with hunger (which i totally understand) but it's hard.
it sounds like we really are roughly on the same page. if you're town, then i agree its shadow and sheep, it would just be rhand instead of me. so if you're town then my job is to convince you of that, and vice versa, and then we (hopefully) win. idk how to do that becuase i really am trying to not write any more walls and i keep f5ing this forum obsessively and i just... need to stop. i'm sorry because i'm not trying to shut down discussion, i'd love to just talk to you all day, but i have to impose some limits on myself due to addictive tendencies with this 2-week phase and not wanting to flood the thread.
i'm uncomfortable pushing anyone, literally sheep showing up and saying "hi i see i'm being talked about" yesterday made me want to go "omg sheep i'm so sorry, i really want you to be town, i don't really think you're scum, please work with me" and i had to stop myself. but i don't need to push at this point. i know the reasons i have for you being scum, i'd rather see if i can find reasons why that's wrong.
my thoughts on the roz stuff (and this addresses gemma’s post too) is that the way roz voted you is just very similar to the way i scumhunt day 1 so i kinda don’t see the problem with it. i don’t think roz was saying “lockscum for not passing wolfrange d1”, just it was a place to go. for me its not even about wolfrange, it’s just finding at least a few things to TR. i guess my problem is i don’t feel like this process should be that foreign to you that roz doing it would be such a surprise. i don’t agree with gemma’s point that you wanted to bury a townie as revenge for it – that’s uhhhhhh, if you’re scum i don’t think that was the plan, if you’re scum you were just looking for a good reason to suspect someone. i agree with gemma that something about the roz progression feels off, i just don't think gemma hit on exactly why.
I don't think you understood the read, or I didn't explain it very well. Lissa's roz read seemed to be oriented around discrediting him, closing off dialogue, and shutting him down. (If that's how you scumhunt day 1, ummmmm.) She was by all appearances null on him and even seemed to think he was town despite his read on her, until after I established him as a valid wagon, and she didn't really acknowledge any of the other wagons at the time. She was very coy about actually talking about the scum motivation for anything roz was doing, and she left the door open for him to be town in a way that was never really going to turn into anything. There's a lot of scum motivation circling around all of that, if she wants an easy place to plop her vote.
I don't think the misinterpreting roz's read on her means much, that can easily happen if she's town as well. I think most people tend to take the worst view of scumreads on them, and I can squint and see 718 as something she believes.
my thoughts on the roz stuff (and this addresses gemma’s post too) is that the way roz voted you is just very similar to the way i scumhunt day 1 so i kinda don’t see the problem with it. i don’t think roz was saying “lockscum for not passing wolfrange d1”, just it was a place to go. for me its not even about wolfrange, it’s just finding at least a few things to TR. i guess my problem is i don’t feel like this process should be that foreign to you that roz doing it would be such a surprise. i don’t agree with gemma’s point that you wanted to bury a townie as revenge for it – that’s uhhhhhh, if you’re scum i don’t think that was the plan, if you’re scum you were just looking for a good reason to suspect someone. i agree with gemma that something about the roz progression feels off, i just don't think gemma hit on exactly why.
I don't think you understood the read, or I didn't explain it very well. Lissa's roz read seemed to be oriented around discrediting him, closing off dialogue, and shutting him down. (If that's how you scumhunt day 1, ummmmm.) She was by all appearances null on him and even seemed to think he was town despite his read on her, until after I established him as a valid wagon, and she didn't really acknowledge any of the other wagons at the time. She was very coy about actually talking about the scum motivation for anything roz was doing, and she left the door open for him to be town in a way that was never really going to turn into anything. There's a lot of scum motivation circling around all of that, if she wants an easy place to plop her vote.
I don't think the misinterpreting roz's read on her means much, that can easily happen if she's town as well. I think most people tend to take the worst view of scumreads on them, and I can squint and see 718 as something she believes.
I never thought he was town.
I tried to engage with him about the read repeatedly.
I don't think I was coy at all or "left the door open" any more than normal non-locked-in-ness except at the end I was kind of hesitant over the weird ***** he was doing.
I don't entirely know what I want to do with Dels anymore. But I'm kind of confused worldwse if he isn't a wolf honestly.
If you like you could run through your reads with me and we can try to figure out what changes if Dels is town. What are your weakest links? Start with the reads you believe in the most and work your way down, and note how they're related to Dels / how they would change if Dels was mod confirmed town. I go through this process hundreds of times every game, and it's not just a process for reassessing. If I end up simply not being able to arrive at any worlds where a slot could be town, or at least not without overhauling my reads in their entirety, then I have a lock scumread and I lynch the hell out of it.
Rhand basically came back from being gone ish and rehashed the beginning of the game, without actually giving any thoughts or indication that he’s read more current stuff. I think he’s scum fallen behind and is just trying to stay afloat.
Ehm how does that make me scum?
It doesn’t make you scum, I think your one dimensional play makes you scum; it just adds to the case of you being one dimensional. You basically restated your early day 1 thoughts without actually contributing anything new, or even taking a stab at recent events.
I’m here. And I honestly don’t know how to move this game to lynch.
Tell me again that my idea that we needed to go to claim range earlier in the Day was a bad idea.
I think your idea that we needed to go to claim range was a bad idea.
Okay, but for real, to get into that, forcing claims for the sake of forcing claims is bad Mafia play; if you're putting someone to claim range, the purpose is that at that point, the game is ready to both end the day, and lynch that player. If you wagon someone 25% into the day, forcing their claim is bad because it doesn't account for the possibility of them either posting to make themselves not lynchable, or thread flow moving a different direction. As an example, in my champs game, I pushed a player pretty hard day one, and about half way through he claimed out of frustration. He was town's strongest PR, and if he had waited, he may not have even continued to be a wagon. But he got killed N1, and he probably didn't even have to.
@Shadow: because he is widely townread, and according to my game view has a good grasp on the game.
There’s no way they can keep him alive until lylo. He won’t get lynched.
Playing devils advocate here, say you're right, he's town and will never get lynched; why wouldn't he be brought to lylo to lynch someone? Everyone is brought to lylo for some reason. Some people it's to get lynched, others, it's to be the lynchers.
Picture a lylo with Last/Me/[scum]
What do you think happens?
if that lylo ever happens, then I vote you, because you are the scum...
^^^^^^
@Rhand
I'm laughing.
Last is never a NK.
I can't find the main posts I remember thinking they weren't partners for.
I uh... think I got Last and Rhand interactions with Shadow jumbled together? Oops.
Shadow seems like he wants to lynch anyone but Rhand yesterday. He spends a super small amount of time actually having a meaningful vote on Rhand and I think at eod it was fairly clear roz was the only thing realistically going through.
Push today seems kind of limp.
I think it was more Rhand posts let's see.
Yeah idk this end of the interaction seems stiff too. I didn't really have any sense that Rhand actually wanted to lynch Shadow until post 1098 and after that he's suddenly jarringly shifted. Lot less good solid push that wasn't a frantic not actually super heavy sequence than I thought. Then he switched again and only cared about Dels.
Jesus.
I don't think they're really even meaningfully hardpushing each other much at all, I don't think they really cared about getting each other lynched at all when they pushed, and I think their interactions are stiff as hell.
Don't really think this is "not w/w" at all anymore.
Vaimes and Dels replies to my entrance are meh. Nothing there really. Haven't heard from shadow unless I missed it.
So far all I've done is read Rhand's ISO and checked vote counts.
Rhand was mostly on shadow/Gemma/Dels.
The Dels thing seemed like it may have been a bit slap-fighty versus anything solid from reading Rhand's side of it, but his EOD yesterday made it seem like Dels was his top for sure scum so I will probably need to read there.
Gemma he thought couldn't be scum with Dels so also need to sort that, but Gemma is a solid 1/4 of the thread...so yeah not really wanting to look at that right now.
shadow for barning bad logic and generally playing bad when he is a good player. Also, I noticed Wheat saying something about being sure one of shadow/Rhand is scum which pings me for obvious reasons.
Had town reads on Last and Lissa. Last is gone, but don't have a lot to go on Lissa other than Rhand thought she wouldn't have defended him the way she did at one point? Seems a little weak I guess.
Looking at the votes I find it odd that shadow was basically at 3 all Day and I know for a fact 3 of the main 4 people on him were town in Rhand/Last/Wheat. Don't really have any impressions of sheep yet, but he was the 4th. What I find odd is that he hovered around being the top wagon for most of the Day, but it just never got any traction. He was even the top wagon an hour before deadline and then both Rhand and Roz got run up fairly quickly instead. Definitely want to look into context on that.
So yeah, the Rhand read, the people voting shadow, and the stalling out of his wagon looks pretty bad to me so that's where I'm going to start.
unvote
vote: shadow
I'll probably do a full skim of the thread and then ISO shadow/vcs.
I would really appreciate it if you went into a lot more detail about all of this, but none of it makes sense to me.
Talk about how Nancy/sheep can be a team. Talk about why Nancy is mafia in a way that actually engages with the reasoning put forth about her rather than just writing it off or calling something it isn't.
Talk about your Lissa town read.
Talk about why you've barely been pushing Rhand slot all game despite having a strong scum read. Talk about why you're rolling your eyes at the idea that anyone could think you're together.
Talk about why you're content with a sheep lynch when you have what looks like a lock scum read on Hunger.
Talk about why Nancy town would mean you would have to reconsider Dels.
To be completely frank, none of these thoughts seem real to me. Your reasoning for town reading Dels ignores the vast majority of his content this game over a narrow view of his read on you, and the way you've phrased it as a mislynch momentum thing feels self-serving and fake, like the real point of the read is to suggest that you're town more than that Dels is town. Your view of the game seems extremely disjointed.
Gemma, I’m gonna be completely pointed here and say I think me taking the time to go through and actually answer all your questions and go through every single thought of mine is just counter productive to the game. It puts my focus on myself and not on actually fleshing out other people meaningfully. Pick like the one you want me to answer the most.
I’m town, KJ is town, I think you’re town (the niggling doubt in the back of my mind is slight, and I take heart knowing that if somehow you’re not, you deserve the win anyway), Vaimes is likely town, and I’m working with a PoE on the rest of the playerbase. I /think/ Dels is town, which puts 3 scum in 4 likely names and I think flipping those names is necessary to progress the game.
While I think Hunger is almost always scum, I want to see people saying “always one in Shadow/hunger” back that up; Gemma I know you’ve said a lot on that, but humor me and give the thousand food overview.
~~~~~
Sheep is playing his scum game, and I think the almost tstbs is actually just scum from him and that’s the lynch I think we should go for. His pop ins have been lock and step the same as how he played later in the hydra game I played with him, and I think the slot needs to die.
Vote sheep
Sheep: how are you planning to solve the game? Who is scum and why?
~~~~~
Gonna try and post more random thoughts throughout the day, rather than just wall post here.
Gemma, I’m gonna be completely pointed here and say I think me taking the time to go through and actually answer all your questions and go through every single thought of mine is just counter productive to the game. It puts my focus on myself and not on actually fleshing out other people meaningfully. Pick like the one you want me to answer the most.
While I think Hunger is almost always scum, I want to see people saying “always one in Shadow/hunger” back that up; Gemma I know you’ve said a lot on that, but humor me and give the thousand food overview.
And don't give me that snark; there is no world where me spending all my time talking about myself helps solve the game, do you disagree?
I didn't ask you to talk about yourself. I asked you to talk about everyone else!
Kind of, but you're asking me to talk about my thoughts on people, and my thoughts feel kind of stale because I spend freaking every morning answering new questions about my thoughts because somehow my answers don't fit the right criterion for being acceptable answers and I find myself with little actual time to engage with other players and appropriately further my thoughts and have good conversation with them. I feel like I've spend this entire day phase answering you and Dels and maybe it's doing something for you but it's not for me.
So far all I've done is read Rhand's ISO and checked vote counts.
Out of curiosity, what did you read Rhand's iso for?
Quote from Hunger »
Looking at the votes I find it odd that shadow was basically at 3 all Day and I know for a fact 3 of the main 4 people on him were town in Rhand/Last/Wheat. Don't really have any impressions of sheep yet, but he was the 4th. What I find odd is that he hovered around being the top wagon for most of the Day, but it just never got any traction. He was even the top wagon an hour before deadline and then both Rhand and Roz got run up fairly quickly instead. Definitely want to look into context on that.
You realize that the Rhand wagon stalled out much the same way correct?
Quote from Hunger »
So yeah, the Rhand read, the people voting shadow, and the stalling out of his wagon looks pretty bad to me so that's where I'm going to start.
unvote
vote: shadow
I'll probably do a full skim of the thread and then ISO shadow/vcs.
Other than wagon formation, do you have any other reason to vote me? You haven't iso'd me, you didn't cite any behavior, and saying Rhand was voting me for playing poorly seems hollow (I certainly shouldn't be accruing votes like I have, but saying I've played poorly is just incorrect, and not actually a real reason to push anyone).
So far all I've done is read Rhand's ISO and checked vote counts.
Out of curiosity, what did you read Rhand's iso for?
Quote from Hunger »
Looking at the votes I find it odd that shadow was basically at 3 all Day and I know for a fact 3 of the main 4 people on him were town in Rhand/Last/Wheat. Don't really have any impressions of sheep yet, but he was the 4th. What I find odd is that he hovered around being the top wagon for most of the Day, but it just never got any traction. He was even the top wagon an hour before deadline and then both Rhand and Roz got run up fairly quickly instead. Definitely want to look into context on that.
You realize that the Rhand wagon stalled out much the same way correct?
Quote from Hunger »
So yeah, the Rhand read, the people voting shadow, and the stalling out of his wagon looks pretty bad to me so that's where I'm going to start.
unvote
vote: shadow
I'll probably do a full skim of the thread and then ISO shadow/vcs.
Other than wagon formation, do you have any other reason to vote me? You haven't iso'd me, you didn't cite any behavior, and saying Rhand was voting me for playing poorly seems hollow (I certainly shouldn't be accruing votes like I have, but saying I've played poorly is just incorrect, and not actually a real reason to push anyone).
I read his ISO because it was the quickest route to getting a view on the gamestate from someone I can trust. Obviously he can make mistakes, but it gives me some insight as to what's going on around my slot at least.
Rhand wagon stalled out a bit true, but not really in the same way at all which is kinda my point? It also had a lot more fluctuation than your wagon. Like, you accrued votes from exactly the 4 players I listed, 3 of which are town, and basically sat at 3 the entire Day. Rhand wagon had a lot of up and down and while I guess it was only 5 players from a participation standpoint, we only know the alignment of 1 of those being Wheat. And I also got a vote from Dels toDay which bumps it up to 6 - aka half the player base that has voted my slot.
Also, the timing of him going up to 4 votes was in direct competition with your stalled out wagon which then goes down to 1. Looks like scum feeling pressure on you and trying to get something to stick. If you are town why don't you think scum would have pushed your wagon past 3?
I mean wagon information and my predecessor's reads seems fairly legit? As I said I plan on digging deeper too, but it's already paying dividends in that it's getting you to interact with me. If I am "always scum" anyway, why are you so concerned with my vote and my process?
I read his ISO because it was the quickest route to getting a view on the gamestate from someone I can trust. Obviously he can make mistakes, but it gives me some insight as to what's going on around my slot at least.
Fair
Quote from Hunger »
Rhand wagon stalled out a bit true, but not really in the same way at all which is kinda my point? It also had a lot more fluctuation than your wagon. Like, you accrued votes from exactly the 4 players I listed, 3 of which are town, and basically sat at 3 the entire Day. Rhand wagon had a lot of up and down and while I guess it was only 5 players from a participation standpoint, we only know the alignment of 1 of those being Wheat. And I also got a vote from Dels toDay which bumps it up to 6 - aka half the player base that has voted my slot.
Also, the timing of him going up to 4 votes was in direct competition with your stalled out wagon which then goes down to 1. Looks like scum feeling pressure on you and trying to get something to stick. If you are town why don't you think scum would have pushed your wagon past 3?
Actually thank you for this, that’s really interesting to see like that.
The obvious answer is “well you could be scum pushing my wagon” but that’s not meaningful and doesn’t actually give me anything to work with wrt you. So I’ll play here, if you’re town, and scum have you and me as opposing wagons, I could totally buy them leaving me more or less stagnant because a Rhand mislynch likely has less blowback than a shadow mislynch. Plus, sheep being one of the people on me during that time would be the scum on me, unless the team is literally like [Nancy/lissa]/Dels/Vaimes or something wacky like that.
Quote from Hunger »
I mean wagon information and my predecessor's reads seems fairly legit? As I said I plan on digging deeper too, but it's already paying dividends in that it's getting you to interact with me. If I am "always scum" anyway, why are you so concerned with my vote and my process?
I’m not concerned with your vote and process, I’m concerned with getting you wrong, and while I’m not really convinced I am, if you’re town, then scum wins by lynching through us, so I really want to get today right.
I could totally buy them leaving me more or less stagnant because a Rhand mislynch likely has less blowback than a shadow mislynch. Plus, sheep being one of the people on me during that time would be the scum on me, unless the team is literally like [Nancy/lissa]/Dels/Vaimes or something wacky like that.
Why is there less blowback on a Rhand mislynch?
Why do you think there has to be a scum on your wagon?
I could totally buy them leaving me more or less stagnant because a Rhand mislynch likely has less blowback than a shadow mislynch. Plus, sheep being one of the people on me during that time would be the scum on me, unless the team is literally like [Nancy/lissa]/Dels/Vaimes or something wacky like that.
Why is there less blowback on a Rhand mislynch?
Why do you think there has to be a scum on your wagon?
I mean, there doesn’t have to be scum on me, but it’s not a big game. I will concede that it wouldn’t actually be the first time, but not quite in this context. Also, again, that would mean I’m horribly wrong somewhere.
As far as blowback, from a scum perspective, pushing through a mislynch on me would be messy, and I wouldn’t take it sitting down, forcing someone to show their bias somewhere; also
Look at the world where Hunger is town and sheep is mafia and talk about what motivation shadow has as mafia in moving his vote off Hunger onto sheep in 1677.
I started reading Shadow re: Rhand again and it almost feels like... staged?
LMAO
I literally had a dream last night that I somehow magically saw the scumboard and saw hunger and shadow on there being like "hey people think we are w/w we should distance from each other" and i tried posting in the thread to tell people but my posts wouldn't go through and i was like "oh **** its because i'm not supposed to be looking at the scumboard" and then i got worried i would be banned. (also i was sad because gemma died IRL and got replaced by panther.)
i took a (much-needed) break from the game yesterday, so i'm gonna actually read now, but i'm just laughing at the fact that i was already gonna tell you guys about my dream and then the first post i read upon re-entering the thread happens to be that.
in the dream i was like, so sad, because i was like "well with gemma gone there's NO way we can win, panther is just gonna **** up and get himself mislynched and ruin everything that gemma did and her life was for nothing"
@shadow: i am sorry if you feel gemma and i have asked you too many questions? (the question mark makes it sound sarcastic but its not) i understand that not everyone is like me and gemma and that you don't live in the thread like we do. but there is sort of a give and take when it comes to how much you have to be proactive vs reactive in a mafia game, isn't there? i think gemma's questions were (for the most part) relevant, and like gemma said, a lot of it was about asking you to explain your reads, so it wasn't really just "talking about yourself"? i also feel like it shouldn't be too hard to respond briefly to some of these - we're not necessarily asking for paragraphs and paragraphs. you say its important you spend your time sorting other people, but we have to sort you. and especially in worlds where you may be scum with lissa or rhand (aka almost all wolf!shadow worlds i am considering) it's important to get those reads. to me the most important question is for you to explain why you think sheep/nancy are together and how that fits with sheep's nancy progression. and to clarify your townread on lissa.
@hunger: i'm sorry because this is going to sound sort of blunt, but what i really need to see from you is your own reads. the way you can form an opinion on someone with your own unique PoV, that others can't. the wagon stuff is.... uh, interesting, and a little bit over my head because i don't work in that way, and i appreciate trying to follow rhand's PoV, but i really need to see your own unique insights. a) because that's how i townread people and b) because it's just harder for scum to fake those than to fake wagon thoughts and/or following rhand's stuff. i am still patient and i know you need time to read, so forgive me if you are planning to but just didn't get to it yet.
@gemma: done, in my head. =P
i think taking a day off really helped, i feel like i have... a slightly clearer idea of how i see the game now. (keyword: slightly) i was actually going crazy on monday, i woke up that morning thinking "ok, it's a PoE of 4, simple, relax and take it slow" and then with lissa's posts + gemma's posts to shadow + wondering about rhand/shadow w/w + the waiting for hunger, i started obsessively going over all of them in my head and not knowing which one i think is town and freaking out about it. i don't think i was in a good headspace in general though so probably wasn't a game thing. i have a pretty clear idea of what i want to do today now though. i was already going to not share it right away, and after reading this page i think i still don't want to. which isn't my normal strategy, but i wanna go with it for now.
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I had a strong-ish scumread on Rhand on Day 1, then sort of thought his EoD was town, then he tapered off and was replaced by you. If you're town, please project.
This game is very wall-y and it's mostly Del's fault. I'd blame Gemma too, but divine intervention broke her laptop or something, otherwise she'd have longer posts.
Hunger - 2 (shadowlancerx, Vaimes)
Dels_8 - 2 (Hunger, Lissa)
sheepsaysmeep - 1 (Gemma)
Lissa - 1 (Dels_8)
Not Voting - 3 (Killjoy, Nancy Drew 39, sheepsaysmeep)
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I don't really agree with the bunch of words/wasting time portion of the issue with your gemma read which is why I haven't really talked about it before, but it... is what they think.
I'm sorry I... don't really know what else to tell you? These are the things my team thinks and they feel strongly about them. And I'm not trying to deflect my own role in the read but I have no way to really respond to "I don't believe your team believes this".
i should say first off i kinda do feel like i am posting to post to a degree
i'm struggling somewhat to get back into this game and really have been ever since my original trip, thought it would be better after i got back from second trip but have been stressed out by some unrelated stuff the past few days
also i feel really bad if you're a villager and it's kinda ******* with me
you're basically the only person itg i've really talked about with my team the entire day
and it's frankly doing some weird things to my interaction with the game
w/r/t the reg read part of the gemma read i recognize there's more there but i don't think it's really very.... meaningful given reg and gemma's dynamic?
not sure what to say about the rhand stuff, my read is what it is i guess
wrt roz stuff, i'm not really sure why you're taking ... me not having posted obvious lock town things d1 ... so lightly, like at least my interpretation was literally he was calling me a wolf for not lock clearing myself yet, which is pretty silly and i hope that much makes sense. like, i guess it's possible he was exaggerating, but i took him pretty literal, and that interpretation was explicitly expecting me to have made posts out of my wolfrange in d1 with a decent chunk of time to go. people calling me "lacking" and similar stuff d1 is an Actual Meme like i'm not joking and also something people still actually do as a serious read and it's bad, they have absurdly high expectations of my d1 as a villager and it's more than a bit of a sore spot at this point, but it's more believable when it's people familiar to some degree with me, the level of experience he had with me made it seem more like a wolf who had picked up a vague idea that i'm supposed to clear myself early and tried to take advantage of that not happening.
re: wheat:
i don't remember ever saying it needs further explaining but i guess i'll hit the links lol
ok that's not what i said? i worked through it mostly internally i think
oh you said examining not explaining w/e
947 was the main coherent thing i had after reeexamining wheat, i think?
i mean there wasn't any order to the tier
there was 4 people i didn't think were villagery
1 was null i had some degree of distinct issues with the others
leading up to it i thought about my townreads when i had too many, didn't really feel like he belonged there/like the reason i put him there was very good and without it there was the stuff there was before
i did look into him again? was the lw stuff later/recent i don't remember but it doesn't matter really. if that wasn't an old thing i don't think i really found anything new.
i don't really understand the initial vote q
my second vote was largrly because of the eod thing i thought i was pretty clear at the time
gemma did you ever explain what you were talking about wrt me re: roz? i'll come back and delete this if you do by when i'm done probably
the swearing thing too
where did you being so locked in on this come from?
it might be a me problem but it is fairly out of the blue to me and/or more so i really don't understand it
i've completely lost the bead of this game i think
Truth be told my scum read of Rhand was specific to Rhand. I'd prefer to poke Hunger a bit before voting. That happens soon.
Oh, I'm not locked in at all, it's just the way my worlds look right now. Part of the way I've been coming across is almost definitely a byproduct of having been playing on the phone for the past 2 weeks. I can't emphasize it enough, honestly. It really is torture. Everything starts to fracture. It's like having a persistent migraine. It becomes nearly impossible to read or articulate anything properly. I need a bit of time to re-immerse myself in the game, now that I have my laptop back, but I'll be able to explain things properly now at least, and I won't be as unstable afterwards.
You are/were a weak scumread. I decided I didn't like my townread on you anymore after I went through half your ISO and found things that really bothered me, which is when I posted 1601.
I don't actually think the stuff about roz was that hard to find, so I guess everyone in the game is just lazy!
(Except Dels obviously who is putting in a ridiculous amount of effort especially if he's mafia, lol.)
When I looked at how your read on roz evolved, I got a few heady notes in there of "your scumread on me is bad, watch me discredit you, watch me lynch you as the ultimate form of shutting you up". Your progression into voting him didn't feel like you actually believed that he was mafia so much as wanted to kill him because he had done something bad.
725 is your vote on him, and it's very soft. You laid out a very neat paper trail before you actually voted him, which smelled very slightly off, as if you were reinforcing that your read was reasonable despite not actually developing the reasoning at all, and as if you were only comfortable voting him after you had made sure that your push would be seen as legitimate.
The thing about swearing: I noticed you have a tendency to swear in order to make your position seem stronger than it actually is. You did this a few times when challenged on something, by reasserting yourself while cursing. It's a fairly typical rhetorical technique that can just be a personality thing, and you may not have even been aware that you were doing it, but it seemed out of character from what little I know about you, it seemed consistently a defensive mood, and it felt bad to me for those reasons.
The badfeels were worsened after 1602, because your perception of the Rhand wagon mirrors your perception of the shadow wagon day 1 almost exactly, and I struggle to believe that that is a real thought from you two days in a row, especially when people have pushing on Rhand all game and you have stated a strong townread on him (and should therefore be more aware of pushes on him).
I may or may not throw all of this out once I do a deep reread of your ISO, but those are the things I was playing with.
Contributing to this was, roughly speaking:
1) the movement of my Dels read, which went from "don't feel good about this townread" to "feel good about this townread"
2) the movement of my sheep read from "maybe he's scum?" to "he's probably scum?", which then led me to decide to just roll with Nancy being town for now
3) the manner of your push on Dels/Dels' pushback on you, which gave me an unaligned read between you two
4) EoD1 votes that strengthened my w/w read on sheep/Rhand and gave me a weak w/w/w read on you/sheep/Rhand
5) the final day 1 wagon on roz, which told me that there is always 1 mafia in you/sheep/Rhand/Vaimes
6) PoE
All of which gives me a scum pool of you/shadow/Rhandslot/sheep that I feel pretty good about.
If you're town, then the team is either shadow/Hunger/sheep or I'm wrong on a townread.
Obviously you think it's Dels, so while we both start to immerse ourselves in the game again, go over some of his recent posts and talk to me about why they come from mafia, why I shouldn't be townreading him, what he's doing to pocket me, etc.
Talk to me about which of the other 3 in my PoE is/are town and why I'm wrong on them. And ask me questions about whatever stuff you don't know or don't understand, so that we can get on the same page here before deadline.
Like, if Dels is mafia then it's in his best interests you make you feel bad for scumreading him or pushing on him, so you really just have to try to put all that out of your mind and focus on the reasoning that you have for your reads and follow that where it takes you, and if he tries to make it your read about anything other than the reasoning then that's his problem and not yours.
I know it's scary to think about misreading people, especially when they're putting a lot of effort into the game, but you can't let yourself go there because you will just defeat yourself and end up confused and not be able to follow your reads anymore, and when that happens you aren't a functional mafia player.
So just trust in the reasoning that you have and try to focus on that, and put OOG stuff out of your mind as best you can because it's not helpful and it doesn't belong in your reads.
Goodnight friends.
very brief responses: (this is a lie it’s not brief, sorry)
@lissa: interesting that you say you didn’t agree with the part of the read that was for using lots of words to talk about a townread. who is this read coming from…? i know you can’t answer but that’s where a lot of my “i don’t believe your team has this read” comes from. you have one team member who i can absolutely believe would have an issue with it ‘cause they haven’t played with me. and another that shouldn’t have an issue. i guess you and i have never played together but you seemed to believe it earlier? this is the first time you’re saying it’s more your team than you. (i know there’s no response to “i don’t believe your team believes this” other than “they do” but its still how i feel)
i am glad you can agree that you feel posting just to post. makes me feel slightly better, and the fact that you admit i may be villager. your level of instistence (“bury”) just felt wrong. not sure if it means anything but i at least feel we have a dialogue now? it just took forever to get there.
its fine that your rhand read is your read, i don’t have a problem with the disagreement, just that it didn’t feel productive. again i know this is the sort of thing you can’t really respond to other than “well that’s how i feel”. same w/ with you disagreeing about the gemma/reg read. it’s not that you disagreed, it’s that you felt the point was so wrong it was scummy.
my thoughts on the roz stuff (and this addresses gemma’s post too) is that the way roz voted you is just very similar to the way i scumhunt day 1 so i kinda don’t see the problem with it. i don’t think roz was saying “lockscum for not passing wolfrange d1”, just it was a place to go. for me its not even about wolfrange, it’s just finding at least a few things to TR. i guess my problem is i don’t feel like this process should be that foreign to you that roz doing it would be such a surprise. i don’t agree with gemma’s point that you wanted to bury a townie as revenge for it – that’s uhhhhhh, if you’re scum i don’t think that was the plan, if you’re scum you were just looking for a good reason to suspect someone. i agree with gemma that something about the roz progression feels off, i just don't think gemma hit on exactly why.
also i don’t agree with gemma’s swearing read. that’s venturing into “mostly” “honestly” territory and gemma i can confirm that swearing is a thing lissa does. (idk about in games, but, as a person)
thanks for explaining your wheat progression
lissa i will be honest, i'm completely lost on, if my PoE of 4 is right, which 1 is the townie. i thought it was shadow for the longest time, now i'm less sure. if you're town and i am town then the team seems very likely to be sheep/shadow/rhand. do you think that is possible? i know you agree nancy is town and i doubt you think its gemma or vaimes. so basically is it correct to say the reason you think i am scum is because you still have the TR of rhand, and therefore the team is sheep/shadow/dels...?
also gemma: nice catch regarding lissa sasying similar things about shadow and rhand. to lissa: i don't know that there's much to "get" about the rhand thing. there's a PoE at this point and i think many have explained why rhand could be scum. i agreed with you about exactly which post from rhand seemed townie, but after everything else, it's just not enough evidence.
also: can confirm, i may get super tilted or annoyed or whatever, but obviously don't feel bad for me, it's a game, i signed up for it, etc. i get super into it, you know this. i love you. but, if you're scum here i am going to a) figure it out and b) shut down any bad line of attack you try to use against me. if it seems like i am more willing to attack you than you are me, it's because i am really trying hard to break the habits of only going for easier players. you are not an easy person to go after. but if you are scum, i have to. i am not going to just vote sheep or w/e over you because "well it's lissa and she's a good player and i'd feel bad".
I don't really have much to say about the believing he was mafia vs. wanting to kill him for something bad thing; I've talked about that progression.
The soft/paper trail thing and the voting delay is just... something I do sometimes, I think? Shrug. I develop things before I do stuff with them. Or not, it's pretty moodbased.
I do think my reasoning was pretty developed though? At least it was in my head.
It's not really a conscious thing it's a personality one. I swear for emphasis sometimes and also when I feel strongly about things but neither is particularly conscious most of the time? People get surprised when I swear sometimes but it's fairly normal the chance I do it just varies super widely on mood.
It was more "wtf" than defensive.
I think I feel like that a fair amount? Meh.
I'm aware of pushes on him but they don't really gel internally/process well and they feel much more minor than they are.
I've struggled most of the game to understand why he was being wagoned, I think, and it isn't really just "I don't see people explain it" it's a "fundamentally I don't Get why this is a push" I guess
I think shadow and sheep are wolves.
My feelings on rhandhunger kind of stand but they're faltering pretty hard out of sheer recency bias? It's hard when my whole read is based on d1 and the landmark point of it is something that happened back in the first half of it even. I was hoping he would come back because I think I find his style fairly readable. Hunger seems much... flatter which is hard. Also continuity whee.
I don't entirely know what I want to do with Dels anymore. But I'm kind of confused worldwse if he isn't a wolf honestly.
I shared the part about choosing to talk about gemma first and about the specific element of the read re: Reg? I feel significantly less good about the first part of that at this point though. I didn't ever really agree with the part about you choosing to do it at all.
My team feels stronger than I do and I think attempting to convey that has gotten muddled up and come through... weird.
I'd like to be more productive about the Rhand read for sure I don't really know how to go about it.
I mean a "hasn't done villagery things" process isn't foreign to me, that would be significantly different to me. I also don't think it would have been particularly correct to apply to me but it wouldn't have been something I considered an unreasonable process or unreasonable to have applied to me at that point even.
I took "hasn't done things that make it OBVIOUS" or whatever it was very literally though, there's a world of difference between "villagery things" and "obvious lock clearing things" to me.
Also people applying "not villagery enough yet" reads of all kinds at that point in a game is kind of a sore spot but I recognize that can be people's perception, this was just an extreme version from someone who sounded like he got the idea to apply it to me secondhand somewhere at some point.
I still have the townread on Rhand to... some extent yes and even as that feels increasingly stale I also don't think Shadow/Rhand fit well as a team.
Like I said I'm kind of faltering on my read on you but I'm struggling with the team in that world.
I might just be giving style ***** for Rhand + the shadow/Rhand stuff too much weight/credit I guess?
Yeah I guess that's just it why it's not gelling, it's just hard to interact with? But I get it I operate on poe pretty heavily it hadn't really clicked that was happening there until now.
I definitely feel that, I have rather similar habits to some degree (a lot of degree) and I've begun attempting to break them in the past few months.
Pushing you is fairly uncomfortable if it's not kind of obvious and I'm kind of concerned I'm overcompensating.
a lot of the things you are saying are reasonable and i want to give you the benefit of the doubt. like that it was more a team read thing and it got muddled, and just the parts where you admit you really are lost/aimless about certain things. i am aware that these are excuses wolves can give so someone slap me if i'm being naive >_> (and also if lissa is scum and i'm scumreading her because of her strange insistence against me, it'd make sense for her to dial it back)
i get the clarification that roz perhaps took it a bit too far and didn't just say you hadn't done a towny thing, she said you haven't been OBVIOUS yet.
my team talked about the shadow/rhand stuff so check it out. if you're town then they almost have to be w/w. i found that hard to believe a week ago but i'm willing to consider it now, not because it looks w/w to me, just because i'm not sure it's as impossible as it seems (considering they didn't end on each other and then it didn't pick back up as much today. and rhand's progression onto shadow was weaker than his gemma one iirc.) and if you or sheep are town then it may be the case. i have nothing else to say about rhand either because i put everything into that one post and he hasn't been here. we have to play the waiting game with hunger (which i totally understand) but it's hard.
it sounds like we really are roughly on the same page. if you're town, then i agree its shadow and sheep, it would just be rhand instead of me. so if you're town then my job is to convince you of that, and vice versa, and then we (hopefully) win. idk how to do that becuase i really am trying to not write any more walls and i keep f5ing this forum obsessively and i just... need to stop. i'm sorry because i'm not trying to shut down discussion, i'd love to just talk to you all day, but i have to impose some limits on myself due to addictive tendencies with this 2-week phase and not wanting to flood the thread.
i'm uncomfortable pushing anyone, literally sheep showing up and saying "hi i see i'm being talked about" yesterday made me want to go "omg sheep i'm so sorry, i really want you to be town, i don't really think you're scum, please work with me" and i had to stop myself. but i don't need to push at this point. i know the reasons i have for you being scum, i'd rather see if i can find reasons why that's wrong.
I don't think the misinterpreting roz's read on her means much, that can easily happen if she's town as well. I think most people tend to take the worst view of scumreads on them, and I can squint and see 718 as something she believes.
I never thought he was town.
I tried to engage with him about the read repeatedly.
I don't think I was coy at all or "left the door open" any more than normal non-locked-in-ness except at the end I was kind of hesitant over the weird ***** he was doing.
your argument is valid and i don't disagree with any of it.
@Ecophagy is there any possibility of a 24-hour extension because of the situation with Nancy/Rhand slots?
I started reading Shadow re: Rhand again and it almost feels like... staged?
I can't find the main posts I remember thinking they weren't partners for.
I uh... think I got Last and Rhand interactions with Shadow jumbled together? Oops.
Shadow seems like he wants to lynch anyone but Rhand yesterday. He spends a super small amount of time actually having a meaningful vote on Rhand and I think at eod it was fairly clear roz was the only thing realistically going through.
Push today seems kind of limp.
I think it was more Rhand posts let's see.
Yeah idk this end of the interaction seems stiff too. I didn't really have any sense that Rhand actually wanted to lynch Shadow until post 1098 and after that he's suddenly jarringly shifted. Lot less good solid push that wasn't a frantic not actually super heavy sequence than I thought. Then he switched again and only cared about Dels.
Jesus.
I don't think they're really even meaningfully hardpushing each other much at all, I don't think they really cared about getting each other lynched at all when they pushed, and I think their interactions are stiff as hell.
Don't really think this is "not w/w" at all anymore.
So far all I've done is read Rhand's ISO and checked vote counts.
Rhand was mostly on shadow/Gemma/Dels.
The Dels thing seemed like it may have been a bit slap-fighty versus anything solid from reading Rhand's side of it, but his EOD yesterday made it seem like Dels was his top for sure scum so I will probably need to read there.
Gemma he thought couldn't be scum with Dels so also need to sort that, but Gemma is a solid 1/4 of the thread...so yeah not really wanting to look at that right now.
shadow for barning bad logic and generally playing bad when he is a good player. Also, I noticed Wheat saying something about being sure one of shadow/Rhand is scum which pings me for obvious reasons.
Had town reads on Last and Lissa. Last is gone, but don't have a lot to go on Lissa other than Rhand thought she wouldn't have defended him the way she did at one point? Seems a little weak I guess.
Looking at the votes I find it odd that shadow was basically at 3 all Day and I know for a fact 3 of the main 4 people on him were town in Rhand/Last/Wheat. Don't really have any impressions of sheep yet, but he was the 4th. What I find odd is that he hovered around being the top wagon for most of the Day, but it just never got any traction. He was even the top wagon an hour before deadline and then both Rhand and Roz got run up fairly quickly instead. Definitely want to look into context on that.
So yeah, the Rhand read, the people voting shadow, and the stalling out of his wagon looks pretty bad to me so that's where I'm going to start.
unvote
vote: shadow
I'll probably do a full skim of the thread and then ISO shadow/vcs.
I support this wagon formation.
Hunger - 2 (shadowlancerx, Vaimes)
shadowlancerx - 2 (Hunger, Gemma)
Dels_8 - 1 (Lissa)
Lissa - 1 (Dels_8)
Not Voting - 3 (Killjoy, Nancy Drew 39, sheepsaysmeep)
Tfw I’m ninja’d by 2 people voting me
[will smith incredulous face.gif]
I’m town, KJ is town, I think you’re town (the niggling doubt in the back of my mind is slight, and I take heart knowing that if somehow you’re not, you deserve the win anyway), Vaimes is likely town, and I’m working with a PoE on the rest of the playerbase. I /think/ Dels is town, which puts 3 scum in 4 likely names and I think flipping those names is necessary to progress the game.
While I think Hunger is almost always scum, I want to see people saying “always one in Shadow/hunger” back that up; Gemma I know you’ve said a lot on that, but humor me and give the thousand food overview.
~~~~~
Sheep is playing his scum game, and I think the almost tstbs is actually just scum from him and that’s the lynch I think we should go for. His pop ins have been lock and step the same as how he played later in the hydra game I played with him, and I think the slot needs to die.
Vote sheep
Sheep: how are you planning to solve the game? Who is scum and why?
~~~~~
Gonna try and post more random thoughts throughout the day, rather than just wall post here.
I have done oodles of this my dear shadow.
And don't give me that snark; there is no world where me spending all my time talking about myself helps solve the game, do you disagree?
Gemma, eevee, Last, Wheat ~ KJ )) Dels - Nancy --- Vaimes )) ------ % )) > ------ Hunger )) ---- Lissa ---- shadow )) ---- sheep ))
literally my one scumread idek about this game anymore
dont get the first question?
unvote
vote: shadow
I read his ISO because it was the quickest route to getting a view on the gamestate from someone I can trust. Obviously he can make mistakes, but it gives me some insight as to what's going on around my slot at least.
Rhand wagon stalled out a bit true, but not really in the same way at all which is kinda my point? It also had a lot more fluctuation than your wagon. Like, you accrued votes from exactly the 4 players I listed, 3 of which are town, and basically sat at 3 the entire Day. Rhand wagon had a lot of up and down and while I guess it was only 5 players from a participation standpoint, we only know the alignment of 1 of those being Wheat. And I also got a vote from Dels toDay which bumps it up to 6 - aka half the player base that has voted my slot.
Your progression by VC: 2 > 3 > 3 > 3 > 3 > 3 > 3 > 3 > 1 > 1
Rhand progression by VC: 1 > 3 > 2 > 3 > 2 > 1 > 0 > 2 > 4 > 3
Also, the timing of him going up to 4 votes was in direct competition with your stalled out wagon which then goes down to 1. Looks like scum feeling pressure on you and trying to get something to stick. If you are town why don't you think scum would have pushed your wagon past 3?
I mean wagon information and my predecessor's reads seems fairly legit? As I said I plan on digging deeper too, but it's already paying dividends in that it's getting you to interact with me. If I am "always scum" anyway, why are you so concerned with my vote and my process?
The obvious answer is “well you could be scum pushing my wagon” but that’s not meaningful and doesn’t actually give me anything to work with wrt you. So I’ll play here, if you’re town, and scum have you and me as opposing wagons, I could totally buy them leaving me more or less stagnant because a Rhand mislynch likely has less blowback than a shadow mislynch. Plus, sheep being one of the people on me during that time would be the scum on me, unless the team is literally like [Nancy/lissa]/Dels/Vaimes or something wacky like that.
I’m not concerned with your vote and process, I’m concerned with getting you wrong, and while I’m not really convinced I am, if you’re town, then scum wins by lynching through us, so I really want to get today right.
Why do you think there has to be a scum on your wagon?
This I agree with.
As far as blowback, from a scum perspective, pushing through a mislynch on me would be messy, and I wouldn’t take it sitting down, forcing someone to show their bias somewhere; also
Look at the world where Hunger is town and sheep is mafia and talk about what motivation shadow has as mafia in moving his vote off Hunger onto sheep in 1677.
(Dels, do this in private)
deadline is in like, a little less than three days, I'll try to do something tomorrow
LMAO
I literally had a dream last night that I somehow magically saw the scumboard and saw hunger and shadow on there being like "hey people think we are w/w we should distance from each other" and i tried posting in the thread to tell people but my posts wouldn't go through and i was like "oh **** its because i'm not supposed to be looking at the scumboard" and then i got worried i would be banned. (also i was sad because gemma died IRL and got replaced by panther.)
i took a (much-needed) break from the game yesterday, so i'm gonna actually read now, but i'm just laughing at the fact that i was already gonna tell you guys about my dream and then the first post i read upon re-entering the thread happens to be that.
@hunger: i'm sorry because this is going to sound sort of blunt, but what i really need to see from you is your own reads. the way you can form an opinion on someone with your own unique PoV, that others can't. the wagon stuff is.... uh, interesting, and a little bit over my head because i don't work in that way, and i appreciate trying to follow rhand's PoV, but i really need to see your own unique insights. a) because that's how i townread people and b) because it's just harder for scum to fake those than to fake wagon thoughts and/or following rhand's stuff. i am still patient and i know you need time to read, so forgive me if you are planning to but just didn't get to it yet.
@gemma: done, in my head. =P
i think taking a day off really helped, i feel like i have... a slightly clearer idea of how i see the game now. (keyword: slightly) i was actually going crazy on monday, i woke up that morning thinking "ok, it's a PoE of 4, simple, relax and take it slow" and then with lissa's posts + gemma's posts to shadow + wondering about rhand/shadow w/w + the waiting for hunger, i started obsessively going over all of them in my head and not knowing which one i think is town and freaking out about it. i don't think i was in a good headspace in general though so probably wasn't a game thing. i have a pretty clear idea of what i want to do today now though. i was already going to not share it right away, and after reading this page i think i still don't want to. which isn't my normal strategy, but i wanna go with it for now.