Also, Dels, I don't get why you were trusting me on shadow when I've been approximately scumreading him for most of the game? Although truthfully he's been hovering around null more than anything.
i was thinking about lissa a lot today and even though everything i said stands (i think she's had some good points and i want to work with her throughout the day and see how it feels) I'm just really not feeling great about her today
and i think the reason why is it feels like every interaction i've had with lissa today has felt a bit... pointless (sorry lissa)
like the main three things were that she had an issue with me starting with a townread/being excited about it, and that conversation felt like... like all i had to say was "well i talk about townreads" and she kind of... kept pushing it to the point where i really had nothing else to actually say, because what is there to even discuss, it's a thing i do and i said that and that's that
and the conversation about nancy re. what "defensive" means, it felt like it devolved into semantics, and granted, i kept replying too, but the whole thing kind of felt like it went on... too long? which is a weird statement i guess but you know what i mean? the conversation i had with lissa about these two things didn't feel like it was going anywhere, and that feels strange because i would expect a conversation i have with lissa to lead to some pretty good insight.
and then just now she said she wanted to talk about the KJ thing and, yes, she gave her opinion on it and its valid, but i found myself still struggling to know what to really say other than like "well you think his disengagement is townie and i... didn't... but okay, valid"
tell me if i'm being silly but i just feel like i expected more
and I totally get that there's no strong reason to suspect her, it's just... it feels off. plus like i said, i find it strange that lissa of all people had a problem with the "talking about a townread" thing because lissa actually knows me and knows it's a thing i do.
so that's kind of where I'm at there. I'm not, like, pushing lissa or anything right now, I just wanted to sort of get that off my chest. gemma let me know if you think i'm being crazy or overthinking it.
God, I've been having the exact same feeling. And her most recent posting has felt really reactive, like I had a voice whispering to me that she saw town posting a bunch and thought oh I need to jump in there so I don't miss out, but if we hadn't posted then she just wouldn't have either. She's really been nibbling around the edges of things all game and I think that's approximately her town process but I think if she were town there would also be... something else? Something more direct? Maybe. This is all nebulous.
The stuff I said my team said about you is primarily just from one member of the team. Not sure how much I can really specify. As for the other stuff I guess I can say it if you want but it wasn't really far off from what Gemma said about how if you're a wolf you are too obvious. does it matter?
my team says shadow that you are playing like ***** and that you are a better wolf than that because you care more about your perception as a wolf and here you are just uh, god i don't even know how to paraphrase this, you are just doing your own thing without caring about perception at all. and they say its okay to say that to you because you'd probably agree and if not you can handle it.
also gemma my team says that their read on shadow is from mgts stuff because they've played together a lot there and know shadow pretty well from it, not from qualifier stuff
well gemma you'll be happy to know that the very first response i got to that post about lissa was from my own team basically disagreeing and saying that that's what she's does as a villager.
they said as villager she pokes at things that seem pointless, she does her own thing, and she basically just has an aura of lissa-y towniness even though my team doesn't usually understand why she is poking at the things she is. they say she does feel disconnected but that its probably just because of the 2-week days and that she is therefore not as into things. they say they base this on previous conversations with lissa regarding phase length stuff and that they think the stuff i posted is NAI.
honestly i agree more with what you just said, it does feel like posting for the sake of posting. like when she said "i have thoughts on the KJ stuff" i thought there'd be... like, more. but eh.
Uh, shadow is doing his own thing is not really how I would have described his play here, but okay.
Christ now you're making me jealous. The only team thought I've had for eons is "I like Last" at a point where I had already locked Last as town. Grouch central over here, lol.
oh great you posted again. was wondering how long i'd be locked out for.
the other thing i was gonna say is...
wait what was it.
oh i was just gonna say that my last parenthetical paragraph to you was mostly a joke so don't think i was actually upset.
will respond to your other points shortly.
oh, other things my team says:
first of all they say that no they didn't actually think WG was flipped wrong, but they say that they did think he was reasonably likely to be a wolf from a bit of d1 reading. but that they weren't reading d1 as closely as they are reading today. (for [reasons]) i know we already clarified this was a joke, but they said it, so.
also my team used some harsh wards (lovingly i'm sure) in response to you calling the team reads stilted. my team says the thoughts were fine and had nuance but that my paraphrasing sucked out a lot of it (which in my defense there is literally a rule about having to paraphrase, and i was trying to summarize and be concise)
oh there was more. my team also says that the randomizer doesn't prioritize based on skill level. which i agree with, i really do, which is why i am considering the PoE i am, but i also just struggle very hard to ever accept that it's just that easy. but they basically told me that there's no reason to tinfoil until its actually proven that it's not the easy route.
my team says again that nancy is just town for the [reasons]
the team's order is: dels, gemma, nancy, vaimes, shadow, lissa, sheep, rhand, kj and they think it could just be the bottom 3 and that's that. i basically struggled to just give over to that, especially in regards to sheep, and i was basically given a shrug and told that i'm not gonna be able to get an ISO there out of them lol
and my team says that the WG progression from KJ sucks and that KJ hasn't shown his normal investigativeness or 1-on-1 questioning stuff. but they also say they're probably not gonna be as invested as you'd like them to be until there's actually a red flip since that's when things get actually interesting. (looking for spew)
(but gemma i will read those things you asked me and get back to you)
and they've reiterated that they don't think it's vaimes but that they will lock that in at some point. they also linked me to literally the same scenario (literally - another player from my board) playing with vaimes a few years ago and being told the exact same stuff about how to read him.
i think that's it. (AND SORRY FOR THE PARAPHRASING) i'm sure i will be told if i've left something out.
Oh about the wallposting thing Dels, I um actually prefer no formatting changes personally because they just interrupt and distract me.
=(
i'm open to feedback on this. i'm just really trying to find ways to make wallposts actually interesting and readable. but considering you're the kind of person who'd probably read them anyway, i'm not sure it was directed at you. >_>
but i think that's more post-game stuff. i don't have any other big case posts to make today, i kind of stop with those once i've gotten my main reads out there.
oh there was more. my team also says that the randomizer doesn't prioritize based on skill level. which i agree with, i really do, which is why i am considering the PoE i am, but i also just struggle very hard to ever accept that it's just that easy. but they basically told me that there's no reason to tinfoil until its actually proven that it's not the easy route.
my team says again that nancy is just town for the [reasons]
the team's order is: dels, gemma, nancy, vaimes, shadow, lissa, sheep, rhand, kj and they think it could just be the bottom 3 and that's that. i basically struggled to just give over to that, especially in regards to sheep, and i was basically given a shrug and told that i'm not gonna be able to get an ISO there out of them lol
and my team says that the WG progression from KJ sucks and that KJ hasn't shown his normal investigativeness or 1-on-1 questioning stuff. but they also say they're probably not gonna be as invested as you'd like them to be until there's actually a red flip since that's when things get actually interesting. (looking for spew)
I really really don't think it's KJ, unless I'm completely misreading a Thing. And yeah I had a post with about 2 hours worth of analysis about Nancy that I lost because lolthisforum and the tl;dr was that I think she's town, so I agree with the Nancy placement there. Is not a read that I am comfortable locking in until she comes back today and does something.
I'm sure they're vastly overestimating how nuanced and great their reads are but that's okay, we can pretend it's your fault.
I mean, you were softing pr a bunch??? Like, I didn't want to say it outright but... it was kinda obvious. The weird part is that you aren't playing like a pr, so... it's kinda contributing to my scumread on you ngl. I really don't want to be talking about this, ahhhhh.
I can add a healthy dose of WIFOM to this conversation that this hasn’t mattered in the past (see Haiku Mafia, where I was literally a cop cleared Roleblocker that stopped a night kill and I still lived to end game).
Quote from Gemma »
My computer broke and forum tools are really prohibitive and it's wearing on me, sorry. I also just really don't mesh with this site meta.
This game is kinda not really this site meta, but other than that sorry
FWIW, I’m thoroughly enjoying your presence, even if you somehow actually are scum.
Ominous as in I feel like I /should/ feel somewhat confident on your alignment, whatever it may be, but I'm just not.
I don't really want you to talk about anyone specifically, I just want to see you do your thing in light of three flips. I know you were kinda ~busy~ and we still have a while before deadline, but yeah. Be town?
Ah, see I feel somewhat cursed by the fact that the longer I keep playing, the less people will actually ever be confident in reading me.
The three flips we got are...not that useful. Roz was town, which...what do I do with that?
Last turned out to be town, which doesn’t really surprise me, just annoys me.
And wheat I already had town feelings on, and assuming he was the vig shot (which I’ve considered some things that make me think he actually probably was) I’m disappointed he was the target (not surprised though).
I still think Rhand’s play isn’t his town game, and he’s selectively playing. And his read on me is static.
my team says shadow that you are playing like ***** and that you are a better wolf than that because you care more about your perception as a wolf and here you are just uh, god i don't even know how to paraphrase this, you are just doing your own thing without caring about perception at all. and they say its okay to say that to you because you'd probably agree and if not you can handle it.
also gemma my team says that their read on shadow is from mgts stuff because they've played together a lot there and know shadow pretty well from it, not from qualifier stuff
Hahaha well dang. Uh, can confirm I don’t actually care really what’s said of me, except for some reason Gemma, but like, that’s more cause her scum reading me is depressing and I feel like she should know better even though I just told Vaimes it’s just gonna get harder. But yeah, I don’t think my play has been like /that/ bad (just not that good either).
he's like but i think youre town this is prolly a reaction test right that type of stuff
reads incredibly genuine reaction
It was like super obviously a reaction test though. And that’s not even considering that a cop just doesn’t go into the same setup as a tracker in a game this size ever. I’m on board for Dels being pretty solid town, but I don’t think his reaction moved the needle at all, and I’m not really sure why you do.
oh there was more. my team also says that the randomizer doesn't prioritize based on skill level. which i agree with, i really do, which is why i am considering the PoE i am, but i also just struggle very hard to ever accept that it's just that easy. but they basically told me that there's no reason to tinfoil until its actually proven that it's not the easy route.
my team says again that nancy is just town for the [reasons]
the team's order is: dels, gemma, nancy, vaimes, shadow, lissa, sheep, rhand, kj and they think it could just be the bottom 3 and that's that. i basically struggled to just give over to that, especially in regards to sheep, and i was basically given a shrug and told that i'm not gonna be able to get an ISO there out of them lol
and my team says that the WG progression from KJ sucks and that KJ hasn't shown his normal investigativeness or 1-on-1 questioning stuff. but they also say they're probably not gonna be as invested as you'd like them to be until there's actually a red flip since that's when things get actually interesting. (looking for spew)
I really really don't think it's KJ, unless I'm completely misreading a Thing. And yeah I had a post with about 2 hours worth of analysis about Nancy that I lost because lolthisforum and the tl;dr was that I think she's town, so I agree with the Nancy placement there. Is not a read that I am comfortable locking in until she comes back today and does something.
I'm sure they're vastly overestimating how nuanced and great their reads are but that's okay, we can pretend it's your fault.
Dels, I'm not sure we're on the exact same page wrt the PoE thing, I don't think the game can't be easy, I think that the teams I have in my PoE just don't make much sense together. I would normally be able to ISO people and look stuff up to solidify this but I can't so it remains a kind of squishy mess.
oh there was more. my team also says that the randomizer doesn't prioritize based on skill level. which i agree with, i really do, which is why i am considering the PoE i am, but i also just struggle very hard to ever accept that it's just that easy. but they basically told me that there's no reason to tinfoil until its actually proven that it's not the easy route.
my team says again that nancy is just town for the [reasons]
the team's order is: dels, gemma, nancy, vaimes, shadow, lissa, sheep, rhand, kj and they think it could just be the bottom 3 and that's that. i basically struggled to just give over to that, especially in regards to sheep, and i was basically given a shrug and told that i'm not gonna be able to get an ISO there out of them lol
and my team says that the WG progression from KJ sucks and that KJ hasn't shown his normal investigativeness or 1-on-1 questioning stuff. but they also say they're probably not gonna be as invested as you'd like them to be until there's actually a red flip since that's when things get actually interesting. (looking for spew)
I really really don't think it's KJ, unless I'm completely misreading a Thing. And yeah I had a post with about 2 hours worth of analysis about Nancy that I lost because lolthisforum and the tl;dr was that I think she's town, so I agree with the Nancy placement there. Is not a read that I am comfortable locking in until she comes back today and does something.
I'm sure they're vastly overestimating how nuanced and great their reads are but that's okay, we can pretend it's your fault.
FWIW I don’t think you’re misreading a thing.
After your wallpost I'm 99% positive I am not, yeah.
oh there was more. my team also says that the randomizer doesn't prioritize based on skill level. which i agree with, i really do, which is why i am considering the PoE i am, but i also just struggle very hard to ever accept that it's just that easy. but they basically told me that there's no reason to tinfoil until its actually proven that it's not the easy route.
my team says again that nancy is just town for the [reasons]
the team's order is: dels, gemma, nancy, vaimes, shadow, lissa, sheep, rhand, kj and they think it could just be the bottom 3 and that's that. i basically struggled to just give over to that, especially in regards to sheep, and i was basically given a shrug and told that i'm not gonna be able to get an ISO there out of them lol
and my team says that the WG progression from KJ sucks and that KJ hasn't shown his normal investigativeness or 1-on-1 questioning stuff. but they also say they're probably not gonna be as invested as you'd like them to be until there's actually a red flip since that's when things get actually interesting. (looking for spew)
I really really don't think it's KJ, unless I'm completely misreading a Thing. And yeah I had a post with about 2 hours worth of analysis about Nancy that I lost because lolthisforum and the tl;dr was that I think she's town, so I agree with the Nancy placement there. Is not a read that I am comfortable locking in until she comes back today and does something.
I'm sure they're vastly overestimating how nuanced and great their reads are but that's okay, we can pretend it's your fault.
FWIW I don’t think you’re misreading a thing.
After your wallpost I'm 99% positive I am not, yeah.
oh. OH, yeah nope. I’m not that droid you were looking for.
oh there was more. my team also says that the randomizer doesn't prioritize based on skill level. which i agree with, i really do, which is why i am considering the PoE i am, but i also just struggle very hard to ever accept that it's just that easy. but they basically told me that there's no reason to tinfoil until its actually proven that it's not the easy route.
my team says again that nancy is just town for the [reasons]
the team's order is: dels, gemma, nancy, vaimes, shadow, lissa, sheep, rhand, kj and they think it could just be the bottom 3 and that's that. i basically struggled to just give over to that, especially in regards to sheep, and i was basically given a shrug and told that i'm not gonna be able to get an ISO there out of them lol
and my team says that the WG progression from KJ sucks and that KJ hasn't shown his normal investigativeness or 1-on-1 questioning stuff. but they also say they're probably not gonna be as invested as you'd like them to be until there's actually a red flip since that's when things get actually interesting. (looking for spew)
I really really don't think it's KJ, unless I'm completely misreading a Thing. And yeah I had a post with about 2 hours worth of analysis about Nancy that I lost because lolthisforum and the tl;dr was that I think she's town, so I agree with the Nancy placement there. Is not a read that I am comfortable locking in until she comes back today and does something.
I'm sure they're vastly overestimating how nuanced and great their reads are but that's okay, we can pretend it's your fault.
FWIW I don’t think you’re misreading a thing.
After your wallpost I'm 99% positive I am not, yeah.
oh. OH, yeah nope. I’m not that droid you were looking for.
I was already pretty certain you had more respect for me than that anyway, so yeah.
Anyway, go through my PoE with me, would you?
I kinda think Nancy might be town here for the way she ended up at a townread on Lissa. I think that mafia throwing tantrums in that way don't really use it as a platform to get there on someone and think the way that it happened feels pretty good, specifically the way she was positioning herself to tunnel on Lissa and get a bunch of mileage out of that push, then just abruptly snapped out of it. Kinda makes me think there wasn't agenda there.
And if Nancy is town, Dels is town, KJ is town, you know you're town... I'm struggling to find a team in there that really clicks with me. I think Rhand pretty much has to be scum in that world, but... I don't really have any good partners for him, and I don't have scumreads inside that grouping. That gives me a bunch of pause, to put things lightly. I know you don't really do worldbuilding, but I'd really appreciate it if you dug into Rhand + Lissa/Vaimes/sheep a little and see if anything pops out at you, and if I'm misclearing someone who is it?
By the way shadow I don't share Voxxcomb's opinion of your play this game. My comments about you being wolfy were only in response to Dels' case, which felt like a lot of over leveling on you. I don't think you've been wolfy for the most part, so much as just... not that town. You haven't been very slimy overall, even when you've done a few wolfy things and a few slimy things (and like, villagers do wolfy things quite a bit, it's in our nature, so I don't really think that's like, saying you've been playing badly or anything necessarily) which is pretty important to me, because ime there's something viscerally slimy that just oozes out of you when you're a wolf. Before reading your champs game I had only ever seen snippets of your town game, so I felt like I could recognise the tonal differences but didn't have an understanding of your town process. I kind of just assumed that your town game would be a cleaner version of your scum game, which I'm pretty sure isn't the case. You seem to have emotional layers as town and a sense of vulnerability that isn't there when you're a wolf and I think it's so subtle that it has to be borderline impossible to fake. Anyway I've been thinking over this for a while and just wanted to talk about it a little because I've been unhappy about how they've expressed their read on you and how you might be perceiving my earlier thoughts about you. I'm still kind of adjusting the pieces in my head and fitting things together as I get a better idea of what markers I should be looking for in your town game.
Talk to me about this vote, Von? Why do you think sheep is a wolf here and why do you want to lynch him over, say, Nancy?
Would also really like to hear your thoughts on Dels because I don't think you've really responded to his content today and I'm missing a little of the wider perspective from you this game.
I'm still not really sold on Dels being town, as much as I suspect he may be out of range here. Am kind of worried by his KJ push, Reg strongly believed the slot to be town and it's strange that that read has vanished from the team's consciousness. I think KJ is pretty obviously town here and I don't think the WG progression is a real reason to scum read him, nor do I think his WG progression was even bad. There's a weird quality to Dels' posting that feels like he's not really engaging with the game as it is at present and is instead almost living in the past, if that makes sense. I don't feel like he's pursuing anything, and his town game as I've seen it feels like a constant chase, so that's a pretty real concern for me.
And when I go through my reads I just can't find a third, Rhand and sheep are lowest in my reads but none of Vaimes/Lissa/Nancy/shadow make sense as the third for that team. Dels fits in there on a number of levels except like... I don't really have a scum read on the slot and I think about stuff like "I'm hurt that you don't town read me even after I AtE'd you" and it just feels too on the nose to be coming from mafia.
It was like super obviously a reaction test though. And that’s not even considering that a cop just doesn’t go into the same setup as a tracker in a game this size ever. I’m on board for Dels being pretty solid town, but I don’t think his reaction moved the needle at all, and I’m not really sure why you do.
Um. It wasn't a reaction test, though, I was just *****posting. It only crossed my mind because I had been chatting with my team just before about how much of a stupid ******** you have to be to fake a guilty, and I remembered Voxx saying somewhere that he had fake guiltied someone before, so I figured him calling the entire game town was a pretty good occasion to make fun of him in more ways than one.
If I'm going to reaction test someone (which I don't do anyway because I don't think it's a fun or helpful way to get reads) I don't immediately bail on it before I have a chance to actually get any reactions.
It was like super obviously a reaction test though. And that’s not even considering that a cop just doesn’t go into the same setup as a tracker in a game this size ever. I’m on board for Dels being pretty solid town, but I don’t think his reaction moved the needle at all, and I’m not really sure why you do.
Um. It wasn't a reaction test, though, I was just *****posting. It only crossed my mind because I had been chatting with my team just before about how much of a stupid ******** you have to be to fake a guilty, and I remembered Voxx saying somewhere that he had fake guiltied someone before, so I figured him calling the entire game town was a pretty good occasion to make fun of him in more ways than one.
A better way to put that would be “It was obviously a fake check,” because doing something like that, even as a bleeppost is still going to garner some sort of reaction; but yeah, I kinda don’t buy anyone actually thinking it was real.
You don't feel like responding to my earlier post?
Hm.
Part of me feels like I should have been able to get there on shadow by now if he were town, another part of me is painfully aware that I don't have a computer and can't read or work on my reads properly, and a third part of me is aware that long phases are my Kryptonite, so... I guess I'll just keep spinning the top.
I kinda think Nancy might be town here for the way she ended up at a townread on Lissa. I think that mafia throwing tantrums in that way don't really use it as a platform to get there on someone and think the way that it happened feels pretty good, specifically the way she was positioning herself to tunnel on Lissa and get a bunch of mileage out of that push, then just abruptly snapped out of it. Kinda makes me think there wasn't agenda there.
I see what you’re saying, but I still kinda disagree; if you start down a bad road with someone, sometimes the best recourse is turning it around to try and salvage a bad situation. I know you keep telling me that MS is an interesting place and the kind of play we’ve seen from Nancy is expected, but I don’t like it, and I certainly don’t think it makes her town.
Like, out the shoe on the other foot; if Nancy is scum and Lissa is town, what actually comes of that tunnel?
Quote from Gemma »
And if Nancy is town, Dels is town, KJ is town, you know you're town... I'm struggling to find a team in there that really clicks with me. I think Rhand pretty much has to be scum in that world, but... I don't really have any good partners for him, and I don't have scumreads inside that grouping. That gives me a bunch of pause, to put things lightly. I know you don't really do worldbuilding, but I'd really appreciate it if you dug into Rhand + Lissa/Vaimes/sheep a little and see if anything pops out at you, and if I'm misclearing someone who is it?
Vaimes is someone that I would probably leave til later for [reasons], and in a world where Nancy is scum, I think Lissa is always town; which leaves me with sheep, who is coasting, and hasn’t like actually done anything this game, plus that reaction to the fake check was super forced.
Talk to me more about Dels; I’m not actually sure if you’re reading him from the head or from the heart.
By the way shadow I don't share Voxxcomb's opinion of your play this game. My comments about you being wolfy were only in response to Dels' case, which felt like a lot of over leveling on you. I don't think you've been wolfy for the most part, so much as just... not that town. You haven't been very slimy overall, even when you've done a few wolfy things and a few slimy things (and like, villagers do wolfy things quite a bit, it's in our nature, so I don't really think that's like, saying you've been playing badly or anything necessarily) which is pretty important to me, because ime there's something viscerally slimy that just oozes out of you when you're a wolf. Before reading your champs game I had only ever seen snippets of your town game, so I felt like I could recognise the tonal differences but didn't have an understanding of your town process. I kind of just assumed that your town game would be a cleaner version of your scum game, which I'm pretty sure isn't the case. You seem to have emotional layers as town and a sense of vulnerability that isn't there when you're a wolf and I think it's so subtle that it has to be borderline impossible to fake. Anyway I've been thinking over this for a while and just wanted to talk about it a little because I've been unhappy about how they've expressed their read on you and how you might be perceiving my earlier thoughts about you. I'm still kind of adjusting the pieces in my head and fitting things together as I get a better idea of what markers I should be looking for in your town game.
I really appreciate this; it’s not something that like /bothers/ me, because I know I’ve always been a better wolf than townie, but sometimes hearing that put to words as why someone is reading me the way they are is like an “ooof” moment. I like to think people realizing I’m town is because of me playing well and being a good townie, but I’ll take what I can.
You don't feel like responding to my earlier post?
Hm.
Part of me feels like I should have been able to get there on shadow by now if he were town, another part of me is painfully aware that I don't have a computer and can't read or work on my reads properly, and a third part of me is aware that long phases are my Kryptonite, so... I guess I'll just keep spinning the top.
If you would wait 5 more seconds *fake exasperation*
Okay Gemma, I've gone back and looked at Reg's posts on KJ. (754 I think) I mean, he completely disagrees with me on KJ's catch up post. And I still disagree with him, I think that post is bad and the way he uses "I'm an easy mislynch" to justify reads on people (which he never finishes) looks more like an easy way out for having reads as scum instead of basing them on more in-depth stuff. Beyond that, he quoted the same post I quoted and had again the exact opposite reaction as me. He thought KJ's reason to vote Wheat was good, I think it's awkward.
That said, Reg may just be right and I am wrong. I re-looked through KJ's ISO and I do see why there are reasons he may just be town. To be honest, I still think the things I pointed out are valid and I want KJ to respond to them, because I can't just... like, drop everything because he may be town. But I realize now that if he is town, we should be able to resolve it. (Coincidentally, my team was following along last night after I fell asleep and read some of your posts and they did some digging and they feel the same way.)
I'm looking at Reg/you's conversation about Sheep and I don't feel like I have anything to say about it. He presents some valid reasons to TR Sheep. Also some anti-aligns. It all seems good to me, none of it is really far off from how I feel.
This:
There's just, no real depth and progression on reads to read into and I kind of think that's largely just, a playstyle type thing for him here rather than a scum-tell? There's reads and thoughts and stuff, but no real explanation behind why he feels that way, or followable increase or decrease in confidence in the read.
(which you say something similar to in response) is... just sheep. So, yeah. Like I said I think the key is you have to actually read the thread and see how much you think sheep's reads fit, and see if you can get a sense for what exactly is causing him to give the reads he's giving. I have some experience with this, and I didn't notice anything was off. Like you need to sort of read into Sheep a bit, and when he says "X's posts recently are good" you have to kind of imagine which of X's posts he's talking about, but usually X will have made a good post recently and you can imagine that's why sheep said it. If that makes sense. Anyway I think he's right about the Sheep/Nancy anti-align, not sure about Sheep/Gemma or Sheep/Shadow.
You mentioned in there that there was one Sheep progression you didn't like? But uhhhh you never say which one it is. Which was it?
I kinda think Nancy might be town here for the way she ended up at a townread on Lissa. I think that mafia throwing tantrums in that way don't really use it as a platform to get there on someone and think the way that it happened feels pretty good, specifically the way she was positioning herself to tunnel on Lissa and get a bunch of mileage out of that push, then just abruptly snapped out of it. Kinda makes me think there wasn't agenda there.
I see what you’re saying, but I still kinda disagree; if you start down a bad road with someone, sometimes the best recourse is turning it around to try and salvage a bad situation. I know you keep telling me that MS is an interesting place and the kind of play we’ve seen from Nancy is expected, but I don’t like it, and I certainly don’t think it makes her town.
Like, out the shoe on the other foot; if Nancy is scum and Lissa is town, what actually comes of that tunnel?
Quote from Gemma »
And if Nancy is town, Dels is town, KJ is town, you know you're town... I'm struggling to find a team in there that really clicks with me. I think Rhand pretty much has to be scum in that world, but... I don't really have any good partners for him, and I don't have scumreads inside that grouping. That gives me a bunch of pause, to put things lightly. I know you don't really do worldbuilding, but I'd really appreciate it if you dug into Rhand + Lissa/Vaimes/sheep a little and see if anything pops out at you, and if I'm misclearing someone who is it?
Vaimes is someone that I would probably leave til later for [reasons], and in a world where Nancy is scum, I think Lissa is always town; which leaves me with sheep, who is coasting, and hasn’t like actually done anything this game, plus that reaction to the fake check was super forced.
Talk to me more about Dels; I’m not actually sure if you’re reading him from the head or from the heart.
By the way shadow I don't share Voxxcomb's opinion of your play this game. My comments about you being wolfy were only in response to Dels' case, which felt like a lot of over leveling on you. I don't think you've been wolfy for the most part, so much as just... not that town. You haven't been very slimy overall, even when you've done a few wolfy things and a few slimy things (and like, villagers do wolfy things quite a bit, it's in our nature, so I don't really think that's like, saying you've been playing badly or anything necessarily) which is pretty important to me, because ime there's something viscerally slimy that just oozes out of you when you're a wolf. Before reading your champs game I had only ever seen snippets of your town game, so I felt like I could recognise the tonal differences but didn't have an understanding of your town process. I kind of just assumed that your town game would be a cleaner version of your scum game, which I'm pretty sure isn't the case. You seem to have emotional layers as town and a sense of vulnerability that isn't there when you're a wolf and I think it's so subtle that it has to be borderline impossible to fake. Anyway I've been thinking over this for a while and just wanted to talk about it a little because I've been unhappy about how they've expressed their read on you and how you might be perceiving my earlier thoughts about you. I'm still kind of adjusting the pieces in my head and fitting things together as I get a better idea of what markers I should be looking for in your town game.
I really appreciate this; it’s not something that like /bothers/ me, because I know I’ve always been a better wolf than townie, but sometimes hearing that put to words as why someone is reading me the way they are is like an “ooof” moment. I like to think people realizing I’m town is because of me playing well and being a good townie, but I’ll take what I can.
I don't think anything good comes from the tunnel if she's mafia. It would be bad scum play, and the last time I played with people from MS one of the scum players threw fits and tunneled on this villager in a really similar context to what happened with Nancy and Lissa this game. Blowing stuff out of proportion, being unreasonable, but really focusing on selling it, it's kind of the bread and butter of MS scum play. And that's kind of why I moved her down when I did, because as a whole the things she has done are like, textbook wolf play. But if she is scum, she did the selling it part really well, because she was going all out at Lissa and then just dropped it super abruptly. Wolves don't tend to like to swing their reads like that when there's a lot of attention on them, and I remember it feeling pretty genuine.
I'm not great at reading into this type of play, because I tend to just roll my eyes and want it to be over with already and don't like touching it, so I'm not super trusting of my take I guess? And like, yeah if Nancy is actually a wolf then she probably saw from my reaction that her thing wasn't a good look for her, plus she got the town read from Lissa, and decided it was better to back off asap, and pivoted onto me in the hopes she could pick someone else to trash before she realised I was too pure and gave up on even posting in the game anymore. And if she's a wolf then she was pretty deep in the I'm a wolf but your reasons are bad hole with her "I'm just saying what a townie said" thing. I just don't entirely believe she's capable of faking that in the way that she did?
I'd like to go over it again when I have a computer and really nail down my read on her, and hopefully she comes off V/LA soon and does things.
My read on Dels is really hard to talk about because I don't even have a solid idea of what it is. I know I keep saying this but I need my computer back from the shop before I have any real hope of digesting his posts properly I think. My read is from my head, though. I want him to be town pretty badly and I love the way he is playing regardless of his alignment, but I have some meaningful concerns with what he has done / is doing in a macro sense.
Go through shadow's ISO and look at the actual reasoning that he has put in thread for his reads. There's... kinda nothing there, and it's day 2, and tonereads aren't really good enough for me anymore. Where is town shadow taking his gamesolving to the next level with all the information we have, reasoning or no reasoning?
Okay, so I went through shadow's ISO again with a specific focus on "What reasoning does he give for his reads?"
I tried to note every post where he specifically explains why a read is what it is (but didn't include posts where he asks questions to/about a read, or reiterates things, or where he just says a read he has without making any sort of case for it i.e. just saying "i like X post")
Disclaimer that this gives a very incomplete picture, it's leaving out a lot of his questions and discussions with people, but these are the only posts where he very clearly explains a read in definitive terms.
I will admit it's... a bit less than I was expecting. There are a lot of times when Shadow sort of just reiterates a read, or asks questions about a read, or asks people "what are your thoughts on <read>?" but even in these posts, there's never really a time when he makes a solid case. Which, fair enough, not every player does that, trust me, I know. But I do see what you're seeing, Gemma, and I didn't really notice it in my initial readthrough.
From these posts, I think the thing that makes the most sense is his progression on Rhand. I think he pretty clearly explains that read, though he seems to base a LOT of it on Rhand's treatment of him. Do you think this is the anti-align you were looking for? I'd say it looks like not-w/w on the surface, but, like, it could also be distancing so I'd never lock that in. Though from Rhand's side I'm pretty sure it was a lot more intense, so, maybe. The Lastwhisper thing is interesting. I know Shadow had a lot of posts about Last, but most of them weren't ever calling him scum or giving a read, moreso just uh whining about Last's playstyle. When Shadow votes Last, he actually gives a reason for it which makes sense. But mostly its just a lot of grumbling that Last's posts are not worth mindmelding or agreeing with, etc. I also like the posts on Nancy. (I feel like there was more than those 2? But those may be the only ones where he explicitly explained the read) But.
So, @Shadow, I promise I still think you are town... I am just asking to be thorough, don't worry. But. Can you explain your Nancy progression? Because I noticed upon rereading this, that in that one post I said I liked in my earlier case, 555, you sort of conceded to Gemma that maybe some of the stuff you were scumreading Nancy for was NAI... but then I don't see any more posts from you about Nancy, or looking into it or talking with Gemma about it, unless I missed them. And then near the end of the day in 924 you say you'd lynch Nancy, and in 1272 you call for a vig shot on her. Did you do any reconsidering of Nancy after that post to Gemma? Or did your read just stay the same?
I also wanna ask about Roz. So, AFTER Roz pulls the "oh I have a role but I'm not claiming" act, you are pretty strongly against Roz and think he should be lynched for it. Shadow's case here is that that type of thing feels more like a scum act, doesn't feel genuine. (I agreed) But BEFORE that, the posts I see from you about Roz are sort of just... calling the slot underwhelming, saying they should be looked at, etc, saying the slot could be lynched. But there's no actual case. Which is fair enough, I get that Roz hadn't done much. But did you have a reason to specifically think Roz might flip scum, before Roz started doing all the weird stuff? Or was it just a "oh the slot hasn't done anything good, can die"? Because I was sort of surprised to never see an actual case from you for why Roz is scum, despite you being the one who sort of started the push there. (as far as i remember)
I guess I also kinda wanna ask about Last - throughout the day, did you really have a scumread on Last? Or was it mostly just annoyance? I assume it wasn't a scumread 'cause I remember you had Last high on your reads list, but can you just sort of clarify the progression there a bit more?
Okay Gemma, I've gone back and looked at Reg's posts on KJ. (754 I think) I mean, he completely disagrees with me on KJ's catch up post. And I still disagree with him, I think that post is bad and the way he uses "I'm an easy mislynch" to justify reads on people (which he never finishes) looks more like an easy way out for having reads as scum instead of basing them on more in-depth stuff. Beyond that, he quoted the same post I quoted and had again the exact opposite reaction as me. He thought KJ's reason to vote Wheat was good, I think it's awkward.
That said, Reg may just be right and I am wrong. I re-looked through KJ's ISO and I do see why there are reasons he may just be town. To be honest, I still think the things I pointed out are valid and I want KJ to respond to them, because I can't just... like, drop everything because he may be town. But I realize now that if he is town, we should be able to resolve it. (Coincidentally, my team was following along last night after I fell asleep and read some of your posts and they did some digging and they feel the same way.)
I'm looking at Reg/you's conversation about Sheep and I don't feel like I have anything to say about it. He presents some valid reasons to TR Sheep. Also some anti-aligns. It all seems good to me, none of it is really far off from how I feel.
This:
There's just, no real depth and progression on reads to read into and I kind of think that's largely just, a playstyle type thing for him here rather than a scum-tell? There's reads and thoughts and stuff, but no real explanation behind why he feels that way, or followable increase or decrease in confidence in the read.
(which you say something similar to in response) is... just sheep. So, yeah. Like I said I think the key is you have to actually read the thread and see how much you think sheep's reads fit, and see if you can get a sense for what exactly is causing him to give the reads he's giving. I have some experience with this, and I didn't notice anything was off. Like you need to sort of read into Sheep a bit, and when he says "X's posts recently are good" you have to kind of imagine which of X's posts he's talking about, but usually X will have made a good post recently and you can imagine that's why sheep said it. If that makes sense. Anyway I think he's right about the Sheep/Nancy anti-align, not sure about Sheep/Gemma or Sheep/Shadow.
You mentioned in there that there was one Sheep progression you didn't like? But uhhhh you never say which one it is. Which was it?
There were two things, I quoted them for Reg during that convo, thought you would have seen them. I'll go grab them I guess. I've played with sheep before fyi.
also gemma I was trusting your read on shadow, because you seemed to have many times when you gutread or toneread him town, and my initial reaction was to trust that. you also had posts saying you suspected him, yeah, but tbh the reasons for it seemed... moreso paranoia, and I didn't see anything that actually made me think he might be scum.
I think that read has faded a bit because a large part of it was from sort of replacing in and just following my initial gut. At this point I think I've been... uh, pretty firmly entrenched in the game and therefore my own paranoia is getting to me >_> So I don't feel the same way anymore. Though you seem to be back to trusting Shadow, but I still think it's worth discussing.
well i have a bunch of things to respond to but i just remembered this one:
shadow can you explain why you said gemma feels "dead inside" or whatever? that's, like, completely not the impression i've gotten...? especially after the other night with the uh "joke". can you explain where that's coming from?
You know what, I’ve had a bit of a discussion with my team and I want to try something.
Vote Lastwhisper
Last feels like he’s almost in antispew mode; his posts feel like himself, but with a reserved quality, like he’s really trying not to screw things up.
dude this cnt be a real htought he's like my top town by a mile
The reason this felt fake was because sheep has been super inactive and I don't think he believes anyone is using his reads as a barometer for anything or that his reads are generally very good, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to me as a natural thought to say that shadow's thought can't be real because of his own read on LW.
Like, if sheep is mafia here he's operating with a level of TMI and that is seeping out in the expression of this read, it's a reasonable thought to have (that shadow's read can't be real) but the locus feels somehow wrong.
wheat's scumreading gemma for being excited explanation really bothers me
This was the other post that I was really bothered by, I was waiting for you to pick it up but you never did. It doesn't feel real to me that he would be so bothered by WG having that read when several people shared the read and were weirded out by my entrance. Singling out WG here feels extremely arbitrary.
also gemma I was trusting your read on shadow, because you seemed to have many times when you gutread or toneread him town, and my initial reaction was to trust that. you also had posts saying you suspected him, yeah, but tbh the reasons for it seemed... moreso paranoia, and I didn't see anything that actually made me think he might be scum.
I think that read has faded a bit because a large part of it was from sort of replacing in and just following my initial gut. At this point I think I've been... uh, pretty firmly entrenched in the game and therefore my own paranoia is getting to me >_> So I don't feel the same way anymore. Though you seem to be back to trusting Shadow, but I still think it's worth discussing.
I town read his tone, yes. Tone is a Good Enough thing that I'll use as the basis for a day 1 read, it doesn't have a lot of longevity for me. I wasn't talking about the things I disliked about him very much day 1 because I didn't want to encourage the absurd tunneling that was going on, which is probably why it looked more like paranoia to you. He has never been more than a weak town read, never more than a weak scum read. I don't entirely understand how your read on him has been so heavily a gut thing when you've written more about why he is town then anyone else in the game? Where's your paranoia stemming from atm?
Thanks so much for that big post about shadow. You reminded me of the Nancy thing again, that felt so icky at the time. Also is one part of how I feel like shadow has been following my reads around a lot this game. I'm not sure how AI it is, because villagers just tend to sheep me a lot for whatever reason, and I'm always creeped out by it.
I don't have shadow/Rhand as an antialign because shadow never really did much to get him lynched and pulled off him to kill eevee when it counted and I think pushed that harder than he ever pushed Rhand. He only voted Rhand the first time because I kind of pushed him into it This sort of goes back to my concerns with his conviction, it feels like he's just been sitting on his Rhand scum read and not doing a lot with it, and his reasoning for the read has again consistently mirrored mine, and he has only given reasoning after I have given mine, most of the time.
for the first post, i think you are misinterpreting it? i think those are two separate thoughts. "this can't be a real thought" and "he's my top town by a mile". i don't think sheep is saying that shadow's thought can't be real because sheep townreads him.
as for the second one, i don't really... have any feeling about it. i guess your point makes sense. i dunno. did sheep ever clarify it?
I town read his tone, yes. Tone is a Good Enough thing that I'll use as the basis for a day 1 read, it doesn't have a lot of longevity for me. I wasn't talking about the things I disliked about him very much day 1 because I didn't want to encourage the absurd tunneling that was going on, which is probably why it looked more like paranoia to you. He has never been more than a weak town read, never more than a weak scum read. I don't entirely understand how your read on him has been so heavily a gut thing when you've written more about why he is town then anyone else in the game? Where's your paranoia stemming from atm?
interesting that you had things against him day 1 that you didn't mention. yeah, i saw it as paranoia. my read on him isn't a gut thing, if anything i said i was trusting your gut, but that was just my initial impression, i wouldn't have townread him for that if i hadn't liked his posts for all the reasons i outlined, and i still feel his stubbornness/aggression feels real. i don't think "paranoia" was the right word right now, moreso that the read has dropped after a) thinking KJ might be town and b) looking into his ISO again. but that also might be very... reactionary, and i do still think he is town. kinda wanna see what he has to say about those reads progressions though. i admit my team said that if KJ is town they wouldn't just auto-drop lissa, they'd stick with the other 2 scumreads but might tinfoil shadow a bit, and i'm enough of a sheep that i'm letting that influence me as well. (but no they gave no actual reasons for it and i wasn't around to question it so i have nothing else to give you there atm)
oh, regarding sheep, my team said they feel that sheep's calling my reaction "towny af" could be TMI. i don't really know how much i agree, i feel kinda self-conscious talking about myself. but i kind of agree with shadow, i imagine if i was scum i... probably would have reacted in a similar way? i mean, it was obviously a reaction test. so i don't really agree that it's a super strong reason to trust me. that said, i, uh, am town so my reaction was towny. I don't think it's a major reason for sheep to townread me is the thing, sheep already said he was townreading me, so i see that as more of a "but hey this just helps" and not a major new read, you know what I mean?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
God, I've been having the exact same feeling. And her most recent posting has felt really reactive, like I had a voice whispering to me that she saw town posting a bunch and thought oh I need to jump in there so I don't miss out, but if we hadn't posted then she just wouldn't have either. She's really been nibbling around the edges of things all game and I think that's approximately her town process but I think if she were town there would also be... something else? Something more direct? Maybe. This is all nebulous.
The stuff I said my team said about you is primarily just from one member of the team. Not sure how much I can really specify. As for the other stuff I guess I can say it if you want but it wasn't really far off from what Gemma said about how if you're a wolf you are too obvious. does it matter?
my team says shadow that you are playing like ***** and that you are a better wolf than that because you care more about your perception as a wolf and here you are just uh, god i don't even know how to paraphrase this, you are just doing your own thing without caring about perception at all. and they say its okay to say that to you because you'd probably agree and if not you can handle it.
also gemma my team says that their read on shadow is from mgts stuff because they've played together a lot there and know shadow pretty well from it, not from qualifier stuff
they said as villager she pokes at things that seem pointless, she does her own thing, and she basically just has an aura of lissa-y towniness even though my team doesn't usually understand why she is poking at the things she is. they say she does feel disconnected but that its probably just because of the 2-week days and that she is therefore not as into things. they say they base this on previous conversations with lissa regarding phase length stuff and that they think the stuff i posted is NAI.
honestly i agree more with what you just said, it does feel like posting for the sake of posting. like when she said "i have thoughts on the KJ stuff" i thought there'd be... like, more. but eh.
Christ now you're making me jealous. The only team thought I've had for eons is "I like Last" at a point where I had already locked Last as town. Grouch central over here, lol.
the other thing i was gonna say is...
wait what was it.
oh i was just gonna say that my last parenthetical paragraph to you was mostly a joke so don't think i was actually upset.
will respond to your other points shortly.
oh, other things my team says:
first of all they say that no they didn't actually think WG was flipped wrong, but they say that they did think he was reasonably likely to be a wolf from a bit of d1 reading. but that they weren't reading d1 as closely as they are reading today. (for [reasons]) i know we already clarified this was a joke, but they said it, so.
also my team used some harsh wards (lovingly i'm sure) in response to you calling the team reads stilted. my team says the thoughts were fine and had nuance but that my paraphrasing sucked out a lot of it (which in my defense there is literally a rule about having to paraphrase, and i was trying to summarize and be concise)
my team says again that nancy is just town for the [reasons]
the team's order is: dels, gemma, nancy, vaimes, shadow, lissa, sheep, rhand, kj and they think it could just be the bottom 3 and that's that. i basically struggled to just give over to that, especially in regards to sheep, and i was basically given a shrug and told that i'm not gonna be able to get an ISO there out of them lol
and my team says that the WG progression from KJ sucks and that KJ hasn't shown his normal investigativeness or 1-on-1 questioning stuff. but they also say they're probably not gonna be as invested as you'd like them to be until there's actually a red flip since that's when things get actually interesting. (looking for spew)
(but gemma i will read those things you asked me and get back to you)
and they've reiterated that they don't think it's vaimes but that they will lock that in at some point. they also linked me to literally the same scenario (literally - another player from my board) playing with vaimes a few years ago and being told the exact same stuff about how to read him.
i think that's it. (AND SORRY FOR THE PARAPHRASING) i'm sure i will be told if i've left something out.
=(
i'm open to feedback on this. i'm just really trying to find ways to make wallposts actually interesting and readable. but considering you're the kind of person who'd probably read them anyway, i'm not sure it was directed at you. >_>
but i think that's more post-game stuff. i don't have any other big case posts to make today, i kind of stop with those once i've gotten my main reads out there.
we get back to dorms around 9-10 each night
need to brush teeth, shower, change, get stuff ready for following day and lights out at 11-12 but i'll likely sleep at 1
but i wont feel like playing mafia especially when i have a billion things to catch up on
and fwiw data is low
so dont expect activity from me next few days
whaddya mean why
someone claimed a guilty on him
he's like but i think youre town this is prolly a reaction test right that type of stuff
reads incredibly genuine reaction
I'm sure they're vastly overestimating how nuanced and great their reads are but that's okay, we can pretend it's your fault.
FWIW, I’m thoroughly enjoying your presence, even if you somehow actually are scum. Ah, see I feel somewhat cursed by the fact that the longer I keep playing, the less people will actually ever be confident in reading me.
The three flips we got are...not that useful. Roz was town, which...what do I do with that?
Last turned out to be town, which doesn’t really surprise me, just annoys me.
And wheat I already had town feelings on, and assuming he was the vig shot (which I’ve considered some things that make me think he actually probably was) I’m disappointed he was the target (not surprised though).
I still think Rhand’s play isn’t his town game, and he’s selectively playing. And his read on me is static. Hahaha well dang. Uh, can confirm I don’t actually care really what’s said of me, except for some reason Gemma, but like, that’s more cause her scum reading me is depressing and I feel like she should know better even though I just told Vaimes it’s just gonna get harder. But yeah, I don’t think my play has been like /that/ bad (just not that good either). It was like super obviously a reaction test though. And that’s not even considering that a cop just doesn’t go into the same setup as a tracker in a game this size ever. I’m on board for Dels being pretty solid town, but I don’t think his reaction moved the needle at all, and I’m not really sure why you do.
Anyway, go through my PoE with me, would you?
I kinda think Nancy might be town here for the way she ended up at a townread on Lissa. I think that mafia throwing tantrums in that way don't really use it as a platform to get there on someone and think the way that it happened feels pretty good, specifically the way she was positioning herself to tunnel on Lissa and get a bunch of mileage out of that push, then just abruptly snapped out of it. Kinda makes me think there wasn't agenda there.
And if Nancy is town, Dels is town, KJ is town, you know you're town... I'm struggling to find a team in there that really clicks with me. I think Rhand pretty much has to be scum in that world, but... I don't really have any good partners for him, and I don't have scumreads inside that grouping. That gives me a bunch of pause, to put things lightly. I know you don't really do worldbuilding, but I'd really appreciate it if you dug into Rhand + Lissa/Vaimes/sheep a little and see if anything pops out at you, and if I'm misclearing someone who is it?
Would also really like to hear your thoughts on Dels because I don't think you've really responded to his content today and I'm missing a little of the wider perspective from you this game.
And when I go through my reads I just can't find a third, Rhand and sheep are lowest in my reads but none of Vaimes/Lissa/Nancy/shadow make sense as the third for that team. Dels fits in there on a number of levels except like... I don't really have a scum read on the slot and I think about stuff like "I'm hurt that you don't town read me even after I AtE'd you" and it just feels too on the nose to be coming from mafia.
eevee
Last
Wheat
KJ
Vaimes
Nancy
Lissa
shadow
Dels
sheep
Rhand
That feels approximately like my reads I guess.
Hm.
Part of me feels like I should have been able to get there on shadow by now if he were town, another part of me is painfully aware that I don't have a computer and can't read or work on my reads properly, and a third part of me is aware that long phases are my Kryptonite, so... I guess I'll just keep spinning the top.
Like, out the shoe on the other foot; if Nancy is scum and Lissa is town, what actually comes of that tunnel? Vaimes is someone that I would probably leave til later for [reasons], and in a world where Nancy is scum, I think Lissa is always town; which leaves me with sheep, who is coasting, and hasn’t like actually done anything this game, plus that reaction to the fake check was super forced.
Talk to me more about Dels; I’m not actually sure if you’re reading him from the head or from the heart. I really appreciate this; it’s not something that like /bothers/ me, because I know I’ve always been a better wolf than townie, but sometimes hearing that put to words as why someone is reading me the way they are is like an “ooof” moment. I like to think people realizing I’m town is because of me playing well and being a good townie, but I’ll take what I can.
That said, Reg may just be right and I am wrong. I re-looked through KJ's ISO and I do see why there are reasons he may just be town. To be honest, I still think the things I pointed out are valid and I want KJ to respond to them, because I can't just... like, drop everything because he may be town. But I realize now that if he is town, we should be able to resolve it. (Coincidentally, my team was following along last night after I fell asleep and read some of your posts and they did some digging and they feel the same way.)
I'm looking at Reg/you's conversation about Sheep and I don't feel like I have anything to say about it. He presents some valid reasons to TR Sheep. Also some anti-aligns. It all seems good to me, none of it is really far off from how I feel.
This: (which you say something similar to in response) is... just sheep. So, yeah. Like I said I think the key is you have to actually read the thread and see how much you think sheep's reads fit, and see if you can get a sense for what exactly is causing him to give the reads he's giving. I have some experience with this, and I didn't notice anything was off. Like you need to sort of read into Sheep a bit, and when he says "X's posts recently are good" you have to kind of imagine which of X's posts he's talking about, but usually X will have made a good post recently and you can imagine that's why sheep said it. If that makes sense. Anyway I think he's right about the Sheep/Nancy anti-align, not sure about Sheep/Gemma or Sheep/Shadow.
You mentioned in there that there was one Sheep progression you didn't like? But uhhhh you never say which one it is. Which was it?
I'm not great at reading into this type of play, because I tend to just roll my eyes and want it to be over with already and don't like touching it, so I'm not super trusting of my take I guess? And like, yeah if Nancy is actually a wolf then she probably saw from my reaction that her thing wasn't a good look for her, plus she got the town read from Lissa, and decided it was better to back off asap, and pivoted onto me in the hopes she could pick someone else to trash before she realised I was too pure and gave up on even posting in the game anymore. And if she's a wolf then she was pretty deep in the I'm a wolf but your reasons are bad hole with her "I'm just saying what a townie said" thing. I just don't entirely believe she's capable of faking that in the way that she did?
I'd like to go over it again when I have a computer and really nail down my read on her, and hopefully she comes off V/LA soon and does things.
My read on Dels is really hard to talk about because I don't even have a solid idea of what it is. I know I keep saying this but I need my computer back from the shop before I have any real hope of digesting his posts properly I think. My read is from my head, though. I want him to be town pretty badly and I love the way he is playing regardless of his alignment, but I have some meaningful concerns with what he has done / is doing in a macro sense.
Okay, so I went through shadow's ISO again with a specific focus on "What reasoning does he give for his reads?"
I tried to note every post where he specifically explains why a read is what it is (but didn't include posts where he asks questions to/about a read, or reiterates things, or where he just says a read he has without making any sort of case for it i.e. just saying "i like X post")
About Gemma:
29, 135
About Lissa:
119
About Rhand:
218, 458, 547, 694
About Nancy:
473, 547
About Roz:
523, 555, 694, 1002, 1020, 1058
About Lastwhisper:
715,
About Reg:
1002
Disclaimer that this gives a very incomplete picture, it's leaving out a lot of his questions and discussions with people, but these are the only posts where he very clearly explains a read in definitive terms.
I will admit it's... a bit less than I was expecting. There are a lot of times when Shadow sort of just reiterates a read, or asks questions about a read, or asks people "what are your thoughts on <read>?" but even in these posts, there's never really a time when he makes a solid case. Which, fair enough, not every player does that, trust me, I know. But I do see what you're seeing, Gemma, and I didn't really notice it in my initial readthrough.
From these posts, I think the thing that makes the most sense is his progression on Rhand. I think he pretty clearly explains that read, though he seems to base a LOT of it on Rhand's treatment of him. Do you think this is the anti-align you were looking for? I'd say it looks like not-w/w on the surface, but, like, it could also be distancing so I'd never lock that in. Though from Rhand's side I'm pretty sure it was a lot more intense, so, maybe. The Lastwhisper thing is interesting. I know Shadow had a lot of posts about Last, but most of them weren't ever calling him scum or giving a read, moreso just uh whining about Last's playstyle. When Shadow votes Last, he actually gives a reason for it which makes sense. But mostly its just a lot of grumbling that Last's posts are not worth mindmelding or agreeing with, etc. I also like the posts on Nancy. (I feel like there was more than those 2? But those may be the only ones where he explicitly explained the read) But.
So, @Shadow, I promise I still think you are town... I am just asking to be thorough, don't worry. But. Can you explain your Nancy progression? Because I noticed upon rereading this, that in that one post I said I liked in my earlier case, 555, you sort of conceded to Gemma that maybe some of the stuff you were scumreading Nancy for was NAI... but then I don't see any more posts from you about Nancy, or looking into it or talking with Gemma about it, unless I missed them. And then near the end of the day in 924 you say you'd lynch Nancy, and in 1272 you call for a vig shot on her. Did you do any reconsidering of Nancy after that post to Gemma? Or did your read just stay the same?
I also wanna ask about Roz. So, AFTER Roz pulls the "oh I have a role but I'm not claiming" act, you are pretty strongly against Roz and think he should be lynched for it. Shadow's case here is that that type of thing feels more like a scum act, doesn't feel genuine. (I agreed) But BEFORE that, the posts I see from you about Roz are sort of just... calling the slot underwhelming, saying they should be looked at, etc, saying the slot could be lynched. But there's no actual case. Which is fair enough, I get that Roz hadn't done much. But did you have a reason to specifically think Roz might flip scum, before Roz started doing all the weird stuff? Or was it just a "oh the slot hasn't done anything good, can die"? Because I was sort of surprised to never see an actual case from you for why Roz is scum, despite you being the one who sort of started the push there. (as far as i remember)
I guess I also kinda wanna ask about Last - throughout the day, did you really have a scumread on Last? Or was it mostly just annoyance? I assume it wasn't a scumread 'cause I remember you had Last high on your reads list, but can you just sort of clarify the progression there a bit more?
I think that read has faded a bit because a large part of it was from sort of replacing in and just following my initial gut. At this point I think I've been... uh, pretty firmly entrenched in the game and therefore my own paranoia is getting to me >_> So I don't feel the same way anymore. Though you seem to be back to trusting Shadow, but I still think it's worth discussing.
well i have a bunch of things to respond to but i just remembered this one:
shadow can you explain why you said gemma feels "dead inside" or whatever? that's, like, completely not the impression i've gotten...? especially after the other night with the uh "joke". can you explain where that's coming from?
I don't have shadow/Rhand as an antialign because shadow never really did much to get him lynched and pulled off him to kill eevee when it counted and I think pushed that harder than he ever pushed Rhand. He only voted Rhand the first time because I kind of pushed him into it This sort of goes back to my concerns with his conviction, it feels like he's just been sitting on his Rhand scum read and not doing a lot with it, and his reasoning for the read has again consistently mirrored mine, and he has only given reasoning after I have given mine, most of the time.
I still don't really feel like Lissa or Vaimes fit with my scum reads at all.
for the first post, i think you are misinterpreting it? i think those are two separate thoughts. "this can't be a real thought" and "he's my top town by a mile". i don't think sheep is saying that shadow's thought can't be real because sheep townreads him.
as for the second one, i don't really... have any feeling about it. i guess your point makes sense. i dunno. did sheep ever clarify it?
interesting that you had things against him day 1 that you didn't mention. yeah, i saw it as paranoia. my read on him isn't a gut thing, if anything i said i was trusting your gut, but that was just my initial impression, i wouldn't have townread him for that if i hadn't liked his posts for all the reasons i outlined, and i still feel his stubbornness/aggression feels real. i don't think "paranoia" was the right word right now, moreso that the read has dropped after a) thinking KJ might be town and b) looking into his ISO again. but that also might be very... reactionary, and i do still think he is town. kinda wanna see what he has to say about those reads progressions though. i admit my team said that if KJ is town they wouldn't just auto-drop lissa, they'd stick with the other 2 scumreads but might tinfoil shadow a bit, and i'm enough of a sheep that i'm letting that influence me as well. (but no they gave no actual reasons for it and i wasn't around to question it so i have nothing else to give you there atm)