KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
FYI peeps: My desktop has been having internet issues recently. I've been trying to catch up on here but it takes a while to load a page. I'm gonna resort to reading on my phone then trying to make a post on desktop from memory after work. Hoepfully that works out. Sorry for the delay on that.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I started reading Shadow re: Rhand again and it almost feels like... staged?
LMAO
I literally had a dream last night that I somehow magically saw the scumboard and saw hunger and shadow on there being like "hey people think we are w/w we should distance from each other" and i tried posting in the thread to tell people but my posts wouldn't go through and i was like "oh **** its because i'm not supposed to be looking at the scumboard" and then i got worried i would be banned. (also i was sad because gemma died IRL and got replaced by panther.)
i took a (much-needed) break from the game yesterday, so i'm gonna actually read now, but i'm just laughing at the fact that i was already gonna tell you guys about my dream and then the first post i read upon re-entering the thread happens to be that.
in the dream i was like, so sad, because i was like "well with gemma gone there's NO way we can win, panther is just gonna **** up and get himself mislynched and ruin everything that gemma did and her life was for nothing"
Lmao.... you really did need the day off. But wait where did Panther come from???
Well you're everyone's favorite mislynch right now, so if you're town it would be great if you could find a way to make that a little harder for mafia to make happen. If you're wolfreading shadow right now, talk about the scum motivation he has for voting you in 1677.
You're deep the in PoE right now, which gives you a privileged position in terms of reading the gamestate, and you blabbing out every thought that comes into your head about what's going to on is going to help us hugely if you're town.
Gemma: Do you still think Hunger is scum? You're voting with him now on Shadow. I'm confused on that.
I posted my readscale in 1681, where I have him at 60/40 town/mafia, which is a weak scumread. I voted shadow because it put shadow/Hunger wagons at 2/2 and competing wagons on two slots that I think have a chance of being w/w and are almost never v/v helps me a great deal. shadow promptly moved off to sheep to dissipate this, which I think is pretty #interesting.
And right now I am pretty sure that 3/4 slots in the lynch pool are mafia, so it's pretty likely that if I land on scum there is going to be mafia bussing, and I think it's big of them to help out so I don't mind if that happens at all.
Look at the world where Hunger is town and sheep is mafia and talk about what motivation shadow has as mafia in moving his vote off Hunger onto sheep in 1677.
(Dels, do this in private)
He doesn't really.
Particularly with the threadstate around sheep.
And it does make sense if both are wolves.
I've been feeling like I should write a bunch of words about various things but I'm not sure I have that many words really?
I feel significantly better about Dels when I step back some and my townread on Rhandslot has died pretty hard out of sheer stagnation. Just not enough at this point.
And game doesn't really make sense if neither of Dels/Rhandhunger is a wolf, worldswise. Either there'd be a super bad clear or nancy/sheep would both be wolves which I... really don't think is a thing.
I'm a little unnerved that it feels so simple now. Nancy/that slot annoys me, having someone not exist for 12 days out of 14 is ******* absurd. That one sequence would be just bizarre if she was a wolf though.
As an extension of the team thing I don't really think a world makes sense without shadow? Like it seems like it should always be shadow/(Dels/Rhandhunger)/(sheep/nancy) barring something having gone multiple layers of very wrong.
Basically whenever sheep makes a "overall" type read on Nancy it's a townread but literally all the specific commentary is negative. Like body-of-work positives with some issues are fine but this is extreme, in combination with his original posting about her it reads pretty glaringly like it's tmi that he thinks he's supposed to be townreading her while it isn't actually lining up with what he thinks about her posts.
This makes me feel pretty good about solidifying both the sheep read and nonteam read.
I'm a little unnerved that it feels so simple now. Nancy/that slot annoys me, having someone not exist for 12 days out of 14 is ******* absurd. That one sequence would be just bizarre if she was a wolf though.
Welcome to my world, lol. The game looks very solved from where I'm standing and it's mostly just a matter of whether or not the team has you in it and which world I want to lynch into the most. Right now I'm pretty sure killing through shadow->Hunger->sheep->you wins the game, but there are still itty bitty worlds where Nancy or Vaimes are the third to one or another team which I'd like to completely rule out before dayend.
I think you're right in a way that it's difficult to find clear scum motivation for shadow there. When I dug into it looking at that world, I ended up so many layers deep that the read drowned in itself. I think the only thing that can really be said is that if Hunger is town, shadow is pulling a pretty -EV bus in order to probably ingratiate himself with Hunger and stock up a bit of towncred in the process, without really losing the Hunger mislynch, as well as to deny information from competing wagons.
I think it's pretty wolfy from shadow regardless of sheep or Hunger's alignments, simply because he is moving off his top scumread to vote the easiest wagon in the game currently (especially so if sheep is somehow town).
As an aside, I think the worlds where you're with both of Rhand/shadow are getting a little interesting, because your 1671 about the Rhand/shadow antialign has the most scum motivation in worlds where they're w/v (and the only world I have for you where they're v/v is you/sheep/Vaimes), whereas if you're mafia with shadow/Hunger you're currently trying to set yourself up to go deep. Pretty much your only realistic endgame here is an f3 situation where you've bussed through them both, MLed sheep, and are up against Nancy the wolfy villager with only an old day 1 interaction to her name. Furthermore, that only works if you manage to block or save the vig shot, since we win a lynch otherwise. So yeah if you're with shadow/Hunger, good luck, I'm secretly rooting for you.
It's a completely and incredibly stupid and frustrating thing to have happened, though, yes. She hasn't just been V/LA for today, either, she was V/LA for a good bit of yesterday, too. I don't really understand why she hasn't been replaced, but that's not up to me.
Basically whenever sheep makes a "overall" type read on Nancy it's a townread but literally all the specific commentary is negative. Like body-of-work positives with some issues are fine but this is extreme, in combination with his original posting about her it reads pretty glaringly like it's tmi that he thinks he's supposed to be townreading her while it isn't actually lining up with what he thinks about her posts.
This makes me feel pretty good about solidifying both the sheep read and nonteam read.
This is a particularly fun example. Literally the same minute.
Most of them aren't in sequence but he basically just goes back and forth between "nancy town" and "this thing nancy did was wolfy" repeatedly.
I still need to get around to my sheep reread, but I don't understand how you're reading TMI into sheep's Nancy read. If he thinks that not townreading her is outing for him, why is he undercutting his reasoning for townreading her?
Could you quote the glaringly TMI posts?
I don't agree that what you quoted is out of the ordinary for sheep, and I don't think "I should be townreading her but I think her posts are bad/scummy" is almost ever the way mafia think about a read, so if I'm just being stupid and not understanding you, help with more words please?
@Gemma/Dels - Yeah, I'm working on doing more. I replaced in as a favor with the caveat that it would be a while before I could really get up to speed because I'm super busy. I'm ~halfway through the thread and have skimmed most of the posts since I replaced in. Haven't done any ISO's and have a slew of notes on things I want to check on/ask people about. Buuut, probably not going to get to all of that before deadline.
This is where I'm at right now:
KJ
Lissa
Gemma
everybody else
Regfan/Dels
Vaimes
shadow
A lot of the shadow read is the wagon stuff and timing that I mentioned, but also has to do with his interactions around Last. I'll pull quotes later, but I don't believe his read and vote on Last was genuine.
Vaimes also for interactions around Last as well as being colored by my shadow is scum world. One thing I need to do is check Vaimes/shadow interactions, but it feels like they have not really engaged?
Also, for both, my team independently came to a shadow/Vaimes scum read.
Regfan/Dels is a lot about Rhand having a strong read on the slot as well as some of what I've seen in Regfan posts so far. Again, I need to check that slots interactions with Vaimes/shadow and see if this world holds up.
KJ is town for uncountered vig claim and Rhand read. I've also played a decent amount with KJ in the past and I know Rhand has a pretty long history with him as well so I trust that read probably the most of Rhand's reads.
Lissa and Gemma I don't have anything super specific other than they just have felt genuine and non-angly. Lissa particularly around the Nancy entrance. Gemma it sounds like I should be wary of her as scum based on her self meta, but like if she is that good as town and I think pretty widely town read here, scum are going to have to take her out at some point because I don't think she is getting lynched any time soon. #WIFOM Also, ISO-ing her sounds like the least appealing thing I could possible do, so going to have to develop her read more from just finishing the thread and interacting going forward.
As a general observation on the thread - there is A TON of s/s, t/t, t/s, etc. alignment pairs being thrown around and almost all of it has the caveat of "or one of my reads is wayyy off." which is like, duh, and hedgy, and dangerous IMO.
I really don't get the sense that shadow is trying to work through the game and solve people's alignments. He hasn't meaningfully pushed a scum read all game, has been strongly scumreading Rhand slot since early-ish day 1 yet pushed roz harder than he ever pushed Rhand, has moved his vote off the slot now onto sheep without doing anything with his Rhand slot read.
"Hunger slot near certain mafia -> vote sheep -> avoid talking about reads to better spend time elsehwere -> interact with Hunger" doesn't make any sense to me as town process.
He hasn't been able to express a coherent world view, I don't think the way the majority of his reads have moved all game has felt real and there's frequently been a bunch of scum motivation for how they have moved.
Am also really unsettled by the way he's been coy with his roleclaim.
Gemma, I’m gonna be completely pointed here and say I think me taking the time to go through and actually answer all your questions and go through every single thought of mine is just counter productive to the game. It puts my focus on myself and not on actually fleshing out other people meaningfully. Pick like the one you want me to answer the most.
I’m town, KJ is town, I think you’re town (the niggling doubt in the back of my mind is slight, and I take heart knowing that if somehow you’re not, you deserve the win anyway), Vaimes is likely town, and I’m working with a PoE on the rest of the playerbase. I /think/ Dels is town, which puts 3 scum in 4 likely names and I think flipping those names is necessary to progress the game.
While I think Hunger is almost always scum, I want to see people saying “always one in Shadow/hunger” back that up; Gemma I know you’ve said a lot on that, but humor me and give the thousand food overview.
I think this post is quite frankly just shadow openly howling. It's very clear that I'm not asking him to talk about himself. I think he's conceding that he can't talk about his reads because they're not real, and is trying to deflect and turn the problem back onto me.
I don't think his PoE the game style reads here is line with his town process and it adds to the increasing feeling I've been getting that he's just performing. I don't think his questions to me are useful at all, he gets absolutely nothing out of hearing me talk about how he's a wolf with someone else if he's town and I think asking that question right after saying that he didn't want to talk about himself is very disconnected mindset-wise and I don't think it's real.
Sheep is playing his scum game, and I think the almost tstbs is actually just scum from him and that’s the lynch I think we should go for. His pop ins have been lock and step the same as how he played later in the hydra game I played with him, and I think the slot needs to die.
Vote sheep
I don't think voting sheep here makes sense when a couple of paragraphs earlier he said that Hunger is almost always scum. If he's town and genuinely has that read then pushing on another slot close to deadline when the Hunger wagon doesn't have much traction just doesn't happen like that unless he's insane and I don't think shadow is insane.
@Gemma/Dels - Yeah, I'm working on doing more. I replaced in as a favor with the caveat that it would be a while before I could really get up to speed because I'm super busy. I'm ~halfway through the thread and have skimmed most of the posts since I replaced in. Haven't done any ISO's and have a slew of notes on things I want to check on/ask people about. Buuut, probably not going to get to all of that before deadline.
This is where I'm at right now:
KJ
Lissa
Gemma
everybody else
Regfan/Dels
Vaimes
shadow
A lot of the shadow read is the wagon stuff and timing that I mentioned, but also has to do with his interactions around Last. I'll pull quotes later, but I don't believe his read and vote on Last was genuine.
Vaimes also for interactions around Last as well as being colored by my shadow is scum world. One thing I need to do is check Vaimes/shadow interactions, but it feels like they have not really engaged?
Also, for both, my team independently came to a shadow/Vaimes scum read.
Regfan/Dels is a lot about Rhand having a strong read on the slot as well as some of what I've seen in Regfan posts so far. Again, I need to check that slots interactions with Vaimes/shadow and see if this world holds up.
KJ is town for uncountered vig claim and Rhand read. I've also played a decent amount with KJ in the past and I know Rhand has a pretty long history with him as well so I trust that read probably the most of Rhand's reads.
Lissa and Gemma I don't have anything super specific other than they just have felt genuine and non-angly. Lissa particularly around the Nancy entrance. Gemma it sounds like I should be wary of her as scum based on her self meta, but like if she is that good as town and I think pretty widely town read here, scum are going to have to take her out at some point because I don't think she is getting lynched any time soon. #WIFOM Also, ISO-ing her sounds like the least appealing thing I could possible do, so going to have to develop her read more from just finishing the thread and interacting going forward.
As a general observation on the thread - there is A TON of s/s, t/t, t/s, etc. alignment pairs being thrown around and almost all of it has the caveat of "or one of my reads is wayyy off." which is like, duh, and hedgy, and dangerous IMO.
I wanna say Lissa backing off the unaligned read between Rhand/shadow makes a loooot of sense if she's worried that Hunger is getting lynched and she'll lose her shadow push from it.
Hunger/Lissa + 1 is my homework for tomorrow I guess.
(I should also mention that you saying that Nancy being on V/LA is scummy is scummy. Shading people for being on V/LA is a big no-no.)
I didn't shade her for it I said I was annoyed it was almost an entire day, nothing alignment about that, I just meant I have nothing new to read from her compared to everyone else and I can't progress/solidify a read like that.
It's a completely and incredibly stupid and frustrating thing to have happened, though, yes. She hasn't just been V/LA for today, either, she was V/LA for a good bit of yesterday, too. I don't really understand why she hasn't been replaced, but that's not up to me.
Basically whenever sheep makes a "overall" type read on Nancy it's a townread but literally all the specific commentary is negative. Like body-of-work positives with some issues are fine but this is extreme, in combination with his original posting about her it reads pretty glaringly like it's tmi that he thinks he's supposed to be townreading her while it isn't actually lining up with what he thinks about her posts.
This makes me feel pretty good about solidifying both the sheep read and nonteam read.
This is a particularly fun example. Literally the same minute.
Most of them aren't in sequence but he basically just goes back and forth between "nancy town" and "this thing nancy did was wolfy" repeatedly.
I still need to get around to my sheep reread, but I don't understand how you're reading TMI into sheep's Nancy read. If he thinks that not townreading her is outing for him, why is he undercutting his reasoning for townreading her?
Could you quote the glaringly TMI posts?
I don't agree that what you quoted is out of the ordinary for sheep, and I don't think "I should be townreading her but I think her posts are bad/scummy" is almost ever the way mafia think about a read, so if I'm just being stupid and not understanding you, help with more words please?
It's an internal inconsistency thing. His read doesn't match up with how he seems to ever feel about her posting.
I think he finds posts he doesn't like and comments on them to say something and then is like "but I should be townreading her".
None of the posts are super weird independently it's the frequency of the pattern.
I think if it was a real read there would be SOME amount of talking about why he townreads her, like I don't really have a high bar for this, but some, that or he'd be worried about his read at least a little, because he says a fair few negative things and 0 positive and his overall read is never below null.
im still null on most people, soem of regfan's reasons for townreading me felt a bit reachy eg townreading my openin post which was like oh i wish i randed wolf
Hey sheep, Well. I’m thinking we probably both rolled town in this game. I’m also liking Latewhisper but since I don’t have any meta knowledge of them, I’ll have to wait and see. Gemma seems to be trying a bit too hard to prove she’s town but it’s maybe NAI. No actual scumreads yet.
This is a pretty wolfy post.
"Hey sheep, Well. I'm thinking we probably both rolled town in this game" is like... "how do you do fellow kids" city on the awkward scale. Also, there's "hedgy" and there's "completely empty hedging that is empty to the degree of utterly meaningless". I have an issue with the latter, which is what that post is.
this was sort of my first impression so town points for lissa
i sort of dislike nancy drew's confidence on townread with me tbh
not really enough progression doesnt seem that natural, like i remember nancy drew going like "sheep having me as town is acceptable" sort of didnt really see her bringing me up again until she goes sheep never scum?
Let me rephraze.
You pointed out earlier that it’s odd that Shadow doesn’t vote me. Don’t you think it’s off that he votes outside of his bottom 3 instead?
You seem to agree with him that LW makes no sense. Why is that?
Don’t you think that empty reads lists and random unalignments are more likely to come from scum than town?
this one
i also feel a bit in italics better about nancy drew
i acknowledge that saying im coasting is reasonable
i have full day math camp and it's aids and when i get home at night mom makes me do like an amc 10 test every night and i have like 0 motivation to play this especially like half asleep and there's a billion new posts every time
@regfan that list was a rushed list fwiw, didnt really remember why i felt uneasy about you originally so it was likeley a weak reason and you were basically just null
and nancy drew had something i disliked here and there but is overall pretty towny
idrk how to read gemma because her scumgame is really strong so i think she would be able to fake all the stuff she's posted so far and im still going off of the reaching tmi read on me and osme other early stuff although the read is weakening
my actual answer to this is completely different now after reading the page than it was when i first saw you asked this.
what i was going to say is that the dying remnants of my townread on shadow make me wanna stick with shadow being the towny and the team being sheep/lissa/hunger. i keep reading your posts on shadow and thinking "wow he really is lacking, why hasn't he had any depth/progression" and then he answers and i'm like "eh ok nah he's fine i guess". i don't have AS much of a problem with his "i'm not answering your questions" post as you, just because it... seems in line with how shadow plays the game? but it's also like, you weren't asking him to talk about himself, you were asking him to explain his reads, and he... seemingly can't, or won't. like i expected to come into this day having you and shadow as my main allies, and only half of that happened. has shadow posted less today? irl is irl, i know that. did i misread day 1 because i was reading it all at once and he wasn't as big a force as i remember? but also, the way shadow's scumgame was described to me by my team is "smooth" and this is literally the opposite of smooth. also, having had some time to meditate on the shadow/hunger w/w stuff, i was leaning towards starting with the assumption that it's not. i think it could be. i'm not ruling it out at all. but considering they were both voting each other all of day 1, and then shadow picked it right back up today... i know how it could be, but with other things, i've been leaning towards sheep/lissa +1.
i was being way too naively reactionary to lissa's posts the other day. i'm really happy that we have more of a dialogue now and that she was being more openminded and stuff. but i don't think anything she said in those posts is really impossible for her to say as a wolf, and in fact a lot of it is kind of what she'd have to say. so i kind of slapped myself and reminded myself that she's probably still a wolf.
and then sheep. he... hasn't... done anything today. i think his day 1 looks w/w with someone. i can't tell who. it looks very w/w with rhand and lissa, and potentially with shadow as well. (the last time i said this about someone, they were a w, but with none of the people i called them w/w with for having the most lacking progressions)
so i've sort of been trusting my gut and leaning hunger/sheep/lissa the past few days, despite all 4 of them being scummy.
but your post on shadow here just makes me want to be like "okay, no, **** it, shadow is a wolf". there is a limit to how much i can give him a pass. i do believe the reasons i had to townread shadow were good, but... it's just not holding up anymore. it's not enough evidence.
so when i read your post on shadow i was like "okay yeah, shadow is the scum, and hunger's post there wasn't bad at all" and then you vote hunger and i'm like "omg it's actually hunger after all?!" (i'm very easy to sway so please use clear direct language to tell me who the scum actually are lol)
lissa's post here isn't bad either.
and this basically all lines up with the fact that, hunger and shadow and lissa all give me some reason to think/trust/hope that they are the townie, and sheep... isn't.
and i think lissa actually makes a good point that sheep's nancy progression isn't as much of a + as i thought. i thought it was good that sheep was giving nancy the meta townread and had some nuance to it, but now i'm like... ??? it's actually kind of weird. i don't think the "TMI" thing makes sense, you are right, it's kind of the opposite of TMI, since TMI means you fight for the read you know is right, and if sheep is scum he's basically giving the read he knows is right, but not... actually backing it up. which is still weird i guess because why say the meta thing at all. but i don't know.
i don't want to take the easy lynch on sheep, but it really seems like the most likely to hit scum to me. (my team from a week ago would lol) i am aware that it's a lazy answer and i still have to figure out which other 2 are scum, and god i hope i'll have enough drive left to do that, but when i said i had an idea of what i wanted to do today, i meant that i think i wanna lynch sheep. the only + i really have in sheep's favour after the ISO is the nancy/last meta reads, and it doesn't hold up. the static reads are really bothering me, because the town!sheep i know would constantly be coming in and reeavluating reads, like each new post would make him post a new "X's recent posts better" "Y looking worse" and just generally being more confused. even earlier when he came in and gave reads again he just restates the ones he already had. the reason i didn't wanna say this is because it looked from the most recent pages like people were converging on sheep anyway, and shadow just voted him, so i wanted to see what everyone else did before piling on. but, since you asked... that's where i'm at.
tell me what's so bad about hunger's post?
btw @hunger you should know that i have a team that says they have played 30+ games with vaimes and they've never read him wrong a single time and they say he is town here with pretty high certainty. i know that's not what you wanna hear but trust me, at this point in my mafia career, i've learned to just trust this stuff.
@shadow i guess my question for you (and i'm aware i already @'d you some questions) is: can you explain why you aren't really trying to convince anyone to vote for hungerhand today? and why compromise on sheep before any real evidence that people wouldn't go for hunger? because my impression from your day 1 is you are a pretty aggressive player. for me, even if i think the PoE is scum, i'm not really "pushing" it here, i've outlined my reasons and i'm okay with people listening or not and following what they wanna do. but considering the way you pushed people yesterday, it feels like you should be doing more of that here?
@lissa the game is simple. and the reason why is that we have a claimed vig, we have gemma who is so towny that it'd be the most shocking thing ever if she's scum, and vaimes who apparently we can practically IC. so with that many townies cleared and 3 scum left alive, that's why we're at the PoE situation we are at. we have 9 alive but it's like we're playing a final 6. assuming we're not wrong about nancy, then if you're in the PoE, you clear one other person and you have the team. the hard part is figuring out which person to clear.
also gemma i don't think lissa was shading nancy for being V/LA, just saying it was frustrating
Hah, I just got into the site again (it’s been down for me since yesterday). Probably will post meaningfully this evening when I’m not supposed to be working.
@Dels/Gemma: I guess I feel like I’ve laid my reads out pretty openly and it’s frustrating because I feel like just spend all the time I have for this game talking about my own thoughts on things ad nauseam instead of actually getting to do anything productive, and it’s lead to me feeling like I’m defending and explaining reads that I am not even that confident in anymore. But when I am here tonight I’ll give you a bit more about my thought process around where I see the game state.
Talk me through what you don't like, I'd be happy to explain my thought process.
Also, what do you think about shadow's push on Last yesterDay? And his wagon stalling at 3 for basically the entire Day and then shadow voting like 4 different people?
That just reminded me, I don't think Rhand ever talked about what his team thought of the game.
idfk what Cantrip thinks of me but I kiiiinda doubt Grape scumreads me here.
Also sorry but this Day has reached a Maximum Capacity for me in terms of how much content there is to read.
Good thing I'm already voting Hunger.
My team chat was completely dead when I got in there. Cantrip was replaced. I asked for someone to take a look at this game and that is like the first thing in the chat and also the first time anyone from my team read this thread. Hence me saying they came to independent conclusions.
I hear you on the content, but are you not at all worried about getting it wrong? Look what happened D1? No one came to consensus and the day stalled out with no real pushes and a concession lynch happened on town.
What are your thoughts on the vote count stuff I brought up and on shadow's Last push yesterDay?
sorry, i usually post only when i have solid things to say and i'm just rambling here. i wish i could be more specific but my opinion on who the townie is keeps shifting every 5 minutes.
i think my order right now is something like sheep > shadow > hunger > lissa
but that's entirely from recency bias, i like the way that lissa is pushing sheep here a lot more than how shadow did it (or rather, didn't, just voted and uhh yeah), and it feels like lissa is finally starting to get on basically the same page as me about the game, and it doesn't feel forced. (i.e. it doesn't feel like she's doing it just because it's what i said/expected) also letting myself be influenced by the fact that shadow looks pretty bad right now and the way lissa is against him here, again, feels less likely to be w/w than the shadow/hungerrhand stuff. and i just went back and read lissa's post on shadow/rhand and i'm back to thinking it can just be w/w. but the last two spots are really close for me, i'm far from locked in here.
@Vaimes 585 - Why just on my slot when shadow had the same number of votes over a longer period of time and we have two confirmed town on his wagon?
Multiple times you mentioned that Last was scummy for the way his reads are all over the place. I know for a fact that you are aware of him doing this as town. So what was different in this game?
842 - What's your through process on the scum mindset here?
@lissa the game is simple. and the reason why is that we have a claimed vig, we have gemma who is so towny that it'd be the most shocking thing ever if she's scum, and vaimes who apparently we can practically IC. so with that many townies cleared and 3 scum left alive, that's why we're at the PoE situation we are at. we have 9 alive but it's like we're playing a final 6. assuming we're not wrong about nancy, then if you're in the PoE, you clear one other person and you have the team. the hard part is figuring out which person to clear.
also gemma i don't think lissa was shading nancy for being V/LA, just saying it was frustrating
Yeah it makes sense with the claimed vig + 2 pretty solidly play-clearable people. I think it just messes with me a little because it's weird to me how many (few) people are still alive in this game, mostly.
I think the answer is pretty straightforwardly clearing you? It's kind of scary but I don't think it's super reasonable/realistic fear anymore.
btw @hunger you should know that i have a team that says they have played 30+ games with vaimes and they've never read him wrong a single time and they say he is town here with pretty high certainty. i know that's not what you wanna hear but trust me, at this point in my mafia career, i've learned to just trust this stuff.
That's well and good for you, but I don't have that benefit and like, I have to go by the info I have right now. I have no interest in a Vaimes lynch toDay though to be clear. I want shadow lynched toDay. Pretty sure shadow/I need to be sorted because if we are both town we are going to be chain lynched into a flawless scum victory. If shadow flips town I'm pretty sure there is at least one deep scum in the "consensus" town PoE.
EBWODP: Oh, and I most certainly DO want to hear that Vaimes is town and I am wrong if it's true. Why wouldn't I want to hear that? I care a lot more about winning than being correct.
btw @hunger you should know that i have a team that says they have played 30+ games with vaimes and they've never read him wrong a single time and they say he is town here with pretty high certainty. i know that's not what you wanna hear but trust me, at this point in my mafia career, i've learned to just trust this stuff.
That's well and good for you, but I don't have that benefit and like, I have to go by the info I have right now. I have no interest in a Vaimes lynch toDay though to be clear. I want shadow lynched toDay. Pretty sure shadow/I need to be sorted because if we are both town we are going to be chain lynched into a flawless scum victory. If shadow flips town I'm pretty sure there is at least one deep scum in the "consensus" town PoE.
sorry if my comment to you sounded blunt. it's because I said practically the same exact thing as you to my team at first, and eventually I had to admit that like, they just aren't wrong about him. (barring some strange... whatever the opposite of a miracle is)
I would love to talk to you about your new points but a) wagon analysis is really not my thing so that stuff goes over my head and b) like vaimes, I am kind of just completely burnt out. I apologize if you are town because it means I'm not really able to work with you as best as I can, but I hope you can see why considering how the first week of this phase went.
I tried writing out some responses to your points here but I realized there was only one point I even had anything to say about, which is that I actually liked shadow's progression onto last, felt shadow's annoyance at last was clear, and when he finally voted, it was based on a team read and a reason that I felt showed a fair amount of depth. I talk about this in my big shadow post at SoD2.
also shadow, the site has been going down on chrome, but it still loads on firefox and internet explorer for me.
it's down again now which means uh you might not see this. but, just so you know.
also @hunger, I didn't realize you had a sir chris quote in your sig, haha! I disabled sigs, but when I went to log in on firefox and viewed the page as a guest for a moment, I saw it =P
As a general observation on the thread - there is A TON of s/s, t/t, t/s, etc. alignment pairs being thrown around and almost all of it has the caveat of "or one of my reads is wayyy off." which is like, duh, and hedgy, and dangerous IMO.
I hear you on the content, but are you not at all worried about getting it wrong? Look what happened D1? No one came to consensus and the day stalled out with no real pushes and a concession lynch happened on town.
they both feel very, like... "oh but what if you're getting everything wrong?! be careful!" to me, in a way that is, like, less constructive, and more just... casting fear for the sake of it?
like, yes, we are talking a lot about w/w or "1 of these 2 must be scum" stuff. i'm not really a fan of it in general, but the fact is people are backing those reads up. the main reason we are talking about w/w stuff is because we have a PoE and we have reasons to be looking at how the people in the PoE have interacted with each other and what their pushes on each other have led to. personally i never look at something and say "it is w/w", i do the opposite, i want to see if i can clear stuff as being "not-w/w", and if I can't, then i admit it's possible. either way, i think people are backing up these reads, not just throwing them out there weakly, so your point here is sort of ignoring the context and the work that's going into it.
and as for the second point, idk, it just feels like a "but what if you're wrong" to me. we're not getting a concession lynch today, in fact i think the town... okay, well, myself and gemma at least, and i'm just assuming others roughly agree, have a pretty clear concensus PoE today. i don't really see any reason to draw a parralel between the day 1 situation and this.
@gemma: please tell me what your issue was with hunger's post. upon rereading it to try to respond i realized it really doesn't have as many new things as i thought. also i know i'd be a ******* hypocrite to agree with vaimes "i'm not sure your team would scumread me" but... idk. what do you think of lissa on this page? if i'm letting recency blind me then let me know. because right now i'm kind of wanting to agree with you on shadow and hunger, and then have sheep as the 3rd instead of lissa. is that wrong?
@Dels
I think I didn't explain my point well in that first point? Yes, pairs can be good and it's a natural part of PoE. I'm doing it too. Just the number of times I have felt like I've read "unless I'm very wrong" is like 100, which rubs me the wrong way, because duh.
The second point is in direct reply to Vaimes saying he doesn't even want to try for the rest of the Day essentially. It's less about fear and more about the fact that he is my second highest scum read right now, he has his vote parked on me, and he doesn't want to move it or do anything. Oh...that reminds me, check out this tasty quote of him contradicting this exact mindset in regards to LW:
842 - “Don't really find the mindset of "vote stays until further notice" to be town-indicative.”
Isn't that exactly what he is doing here? But actually worse since he is refusing to interact with me? Last at least continued interacting despite being stubborn with his vote. Vaimes first reply to me trying to ask him a question was "Read the thread."
as soon as i posted, i realized i meant to address the "unless i'm very wrong" part but forgot to. the "unless i'm very wrong part" comes from the fact that that vaimes and gemma and KJ are all such strong clears. the PoE I've outlined is: vaimes and gemma and KJ are all town. (KJ the most obv), which leaves 6. gemma and i and my team (and lissa) all feel pretty good about nancy being town. that's the biggest "unless i'm wrong". it's... hard to stick with it considering she literally hasn't been here in 2 weeks, but i trust my reasons and our discussions about it. and based on that, that's 4 townies out of 9, leaving 5 people, and then excluding myself i have a PoE of 4. so when I say "unless i'm very wrong", it's not just your standard "well i could be wrong", it's that i really strongly believe in those townreads. it's not just a hedgy disclaimer for the sake of it, you know what i mean?
heck even if lissa or sheep are scum (at least one likely is), it'd read to me like lissa knows she can't push nancy after that day 1 stuff, and it already reads (as lissa pointed out) like sheep knows nancy is town and feels he has to say it, but that he can't follow through.
and yeah i get it with the vaimes thing. i kinda empathize with him, and it's mostly my own fault. i honestly am going to be posting less, its just i wanted to catch up on the entirety of day 1 and i think the work gemma and i did has been pretty damn useful.
the hypocrisy you have detected is noted. =P i would almost certainly be agreeing with you if i hadn't been browbeaten into... not doing that.
i don't think you're scum for those two "be careful" points but it seemed like it could be a way you are trying to seem reasonable and/or try to discredit the town's process, so i wanted to pointed it out. it's probably NAI. i have some other thoughts on your post but i'm shutting up now 'cause me thinking out loud into the thread is not helpful and i should've posted less today.
also i was waiting for someone to post and/or for an hour to pass to do this
Unvote: Lissa
Not gonna immediately revote, but as of now I plan to vote Sheep. Liable to change, though.
One big general issue that has me like /sideyes at this game up to the point I have read, is that shadow seems to be a pretty consensus bottom three read by most of the game, but he has never eclipsed 3 votes? The only thing I have come across as reasoning is Gemma earlier saying she would rather lynch lurkers than active posters. Why is this a thing? Why isn't he getting more pressure?
I also want to hear from more people what they think of my first post and why the shadow wagon D1 stalled out so hard?
I didn't like shadow's early game of setting up pairs right away. I know for a fact I have been lynched as scum for doing that, but then reading more it seems like A LOT of people are doing that? Maybe a MTGS meta shift since I last played...
604 - Feels soooo flat and emotionless. Like, "hey, look at me saying town things that I don't really actually care about!" That's just one quote, but I get that flat affect in a number of his posts despite the fact that he has said multiple times he's just super excited...I just don't FEEL that so it seems forced and fake.
610 - Starting with this post shadow has a conversation with Gemma about how his wagon also stalled out like Rhand's. I bring this up because his reaction to my first post talking about this point and even thanking me for pointing it out made me think he wasn't really aware of this, but clearly he must have been. The reasoning he provides is he is a riskier push than Rhand for scum to make and when I pushed him on that he said in part because he hadn't been coy about claiming a PR, but as far as I've seen up to that point in the thread on D1 where his wagon was stalling, he hadn't hinted at all? Am I being daft and just missed it?
Also of note on this point is part of what I was asking Vaimes about in the above quoted 585 post. Vaimes also ignored the fact that the shadow wagon stalled out which is giving me Vaimes/shadow s/s vibes. The fact that their apparent LW reads (which I will get to more) and side-stepping? this stalled shadow wagon thing has me thinking they are mind-melding, but they don't seem to be intentionally doing it, pointing it out, or even noticing it?
re:LW 715 - I hate this phrasing so much. "I want to try something." Like, what is that? I don't buy that this is shadow actually thinking Last is scum.
747 - You have played with Last plenty of times to know that that behavior is EXACTLY in his town-game.
The "No NK/No Lylo" thing also feels tacked on. This is where I wanted to ask Gemma/someone if I'm being crazy and that you are just openly wolfing here because you talked with your team about killing Last toNight and the "try something" is you creating distance from that with this post.
817 - And then not only that, but here if you are doing what I'm tinfoiling on in the last quote, you are doubling-down trying to call Last out for exactly what you are doing! Which makes it all the more likely for you to be able to point to those posts and say, "hey man, no way I would openly say this if I am wolf."
911 - And this is Last confirming what I had been seeing up to this point. shadow has a good meta on Last and this is not it.
919 - And this is shadow's reply to the whole situation, which is again, just...flat and like, "nuh uh, no I didn't!" I think someone after this says something along those lines too. Gemma maybe? I didn't take note who it was.
amusingly enough, hunger here is a post where sir chris went after vaimes in a 2016 game, and newcomb explained based on meta why chris's read was wrong:
@Dels
Haha, yeah I looked it up and it was a Castlevania game that you and I were in which was I think the first game by any of the Gamefaqs crew? I miss Sir Chris.
I don't have the time/energy to really look into Vaimes toDay. If I'm alive tomorrow I probably will. It would also depend a bit on how shadow flips and me actually ISO'ing them both in this game. It's possible this world I built with shadow/Vaimes isn't viable.
@Dels Before I say anything, am sorry you're feeling burned out, please let me know if there's anything I can do? It might help if you just put aside a set period of time in the day to come back to the game, and spend the rest of your day not thinking about it? Give yourself a bit of space.
I haven't read all of this page yet, but my post about shadow wasn't so much a scum case as me putting my thoughts about him out into thread in the hopes that someone would have something to say about them, because I don't think the reasoning I put forward is very strong and I don't think it's necessarily super far out of his town range, and I'd like to hear more voices on that.
What I hated about Hunger's post is that he's given a bunch of quasi-reads and quasi-stances, his shadow read feels too sticky yet directionless, his take on me smells of TMI, his KJ bit is overdone, the "my team and I independently scumread Vaimes" doesn't sound real, and no one should ever have Lissa as high as he does. There was almost more "something for later" than there was actual content. The whole post was very very fake imo and it reeks of busywork / him just eating through the thread without actually doing anything meaningful or even trying to make an impact on the gamestate currently. (Also, look at the bit where he talks about sheep. ... ...)
It sounds like you need to slow down and take a few deep breaths?
I don't actually think Lissa's push on sheep makes a huge amount of sense. I can squint and see it being a real read after her clarification, but I don't think the reasoning stands up for itself. It's entirely plausible that sheep just didn't bring up the stuff he thought was towny about Nancy. I very frequently have someone as a townread and feel like I don't need to talk about why, and will only really talk about the read when I poke at it in thread. It feels like she's painting him as mafia more than anything, honestly.
it's a mix of burnt out and also... i think i'm really just an "all or nothing" type person. i was all in for over a week. then i took 24+ hours completely away and now i have trouble getting back there, fueled more by this situation of having 4 scumreads and not knowing any more which 3 of them are definitely the scum. which i don't even theoretically have to solve today, but i can't help but want to. there is nothing you can do for me =P if the biggest problem in my life is getting too worked up over a mafia game, that is okay for now. i almost made a post on monday saying "gemma please just solve this game for me, i can't do any more" but i am not going to ask you for that. also slowing down is great it's just we're near EoD. but yeah, i shouldn't have posted today, and i still need to just... not worry about it so much. but thank you.
my shadow paranoia is just so high that i read it as a case. i mean, you make good points. particularly, asking him to explain his reads is not him "talking about himself". it's like, the opposite. shadow has had a decent number of reads that i haven't fully followed and i wish he had actually answered with clarifications instead of that.
i see the hunger stuff now. what is his KJ bit? also is the joke that he didn't talk about sheep?
idk, read the rest of the stuff i posted and let me know where you're at. i will stay calm i promise. i'm just in a weird position where i'm pretty sure the PoE of 4 is right, I just don't know within it which is right. and every time you make a post about lissa or shadow or hunger i'm like "ok that person is definitely the scum" but then i say it about all 4. which is why i need to calm down.
sorry, i usually post only when i have solid things to say and i'm just rambling here. i wish i could be more specific but my opinion on who the townie is keeps shifting every 5 minutes.
i think my order right now is something like sheep > shadow > hunger > lissa
but that's entirely from recency bias, i like the way that lissa is pushing sheep here a lot more than how shadow did it (or rather, didn't, just voted and uhh yeah), and it feels like lissa is finally starting to get on basically the same page as me about the game, and it doesn't feel forced. (i.e. it doesn't feel like she's doing it just because it's what i said/expected) also letting myself be influenced by the fact that shadow looks pretty bad right now and the way lissa is against him here, again, feels less likely to be w/w than the shadow/hungerrhand stuff. and i just went back and read lissa's post on shadow/rhand and i'm back to thinking it can just be w/w. but the last two spots are really close for me, i'm far from locked in here.
The only thing I dislike about shadow's push on sheep in and of itself is that he's basing it on meta, but I'm not sure that's even scummy for him necessarily. I'll talk more about this after shadow posts again.
It's weird that you don't think Lissa's push on sheep feels forced, because it does to me, and I think if she's scum with Hunger here then it's her best play, especially if shadow is town and she doesn't want to push on him. If you track her shadow scumread, she came around pretty strongly to him being mafia here, yet hasn't actually pushed on him and is now going for sheep. I don't think that makes much sense in a very similar way to how shadow pushing off Hunger onto sheep doesn't make sense, and I haven't seen her thinking about "huh why is shadow on this wagon with me" or such at all. I think it's probably a worse look for her than it is for shadow, though.
There are more things that are starting to align for me with shadow v/Hunger w worlds - Lissa retracting her Rhand/shadow antialign (which I think was also a weird read to make given she was townreading Rhand), Hunger's read on Lissa, Lissa and Hunger's treatment of shadow. I should make a separate post about this, but I'm kind of feeling a Hunger/Lissa team rn. You've moved away from that, so I'd appreciate your thoughts on whether I'm insane or selling myself a narrative or such.
The Sheep thing is mostly a frequency/extent thing in combination with what he said about reading her at the start of the game.
And I mean.
I haven't really been pushing anything today other than when I was pushing Dels?
I don't really care right now which of shadow/sheep/hunger is the lynch and lynching in there isn't an uncommon thought or one that really.... needs pushing.
I don't really like, push super hard in spots like that, don't feel like I need to and don't even know what there is to push.
With regards to "why is shadow on this wagon with me" I think the wolfteam is pretty damn boxed in today in that world.
I would really appreciate it if you went into a lot more detail about all of this, but none of it makes sense to me.
@Gemma: I guess I owe you this. You've kind of put more work into this game than is reasonable, and (even though I still think it's obvious that I'm town) I'm gonna try and show you where I'm at/figure out where I'm at.
Quote from Gemma »
Talk about how Nancy/sheep can be a team. Talk about why Nancy is mafia in a way that actually engages with the reasoning put forth about her rather than just writing it off or calling something it isn't.
I hadn't really considered Nancy and sheep as unaligned; I get that they have a history and sheep despite calling Nancy easy to read has kinda bumbled around that read but...I wouldn't call that or anything they've done really hard clearing.
That being said, Nancy is a pet read, and I basically think I've been stuck in this place where it's a read against the grain that reminded me of a similar situation in another game. I...am probably just wrong. You're telling me I'm wrong, everyone else is telling me I'm wrong, it's not the same situation, I'm probably looking for reasons to justify it instead of looking for an honest read there. I don't think I can completely lock her in as town, but I'll try and look at the game through a broader lens.
Quote from Gemma »
Talk about your Lissa town read.
So Lissa is never w/w with Nancy, but in addition to that, she's basically played with no guile. Like, she takes her time getting a feel for the game, then comes in periodically to offer thoughts without like, trying to push a narrative. I kind of think if she is scum, she would be playing in such a way that she'd get credit for any of stances she's taken.
Quote from Gemma »
Talk about why you've barely been pushing Rhand slot all game despite having a strong scum read. Talk about why you're rolling your eyes at the idea that anyone could think you're together.
I pushed Rhand pretty hard yesterday, I don't know what you're smoking. Today he's not been present, and Hunger coming into the game has been like...okay posting and I'm somewhat paranoid that he is town and he and I are being setup to be chain lynched.
Quote from Gemma »
Talk about why you're content with a sheep lynch when you have what looks like a lock scum read on Hunger.
To add onto above, I think if one of Hunger/sheep is town, Hunger is more likely to show it. But yeah, a lot of it is paranoia, and it's probably just me being dumb.
Quote from Gemma »
Talk about why Nancy town would mean you would have to reconsider Dels.
Purely a shrinking PoE.
~~~~~
So where am I at?
I'm town.
KJ is town.
Gemma is town.
I think Vaimes is town.
Nancy is...probably just town.
Lissa, Hunger, sheep, Dels
Ugh. I feel like everyone there has some reason or another to be town.
I'm rereading those 4. Probably be back in the morning; I've got a sick wife and I've been fighting off the stirrings of a cold myself.
btw @hunger you should know that i have a team that says they have played 30+ games with vaimes and they've never read him wrong a single time and they say he is town here with pretty high certainty. i know that's not what you wanna hear but trust me, at this point in my mafia career, i've learned to just trust this stuff.
That's well and good for you, but I don't have that benefit and like, I have to go by the info I have right now. I have no interest in a Vaimes lynch toDay though to be clear. I want shadow lynched toDay. Pretty sure shadow/I need to be sorted because if we are both town we are going to be chain lynched into a flawless scum victory. If shadow flips town I'm pretty sure there is at least one deep scum in the "consensus" town PoE.
I don't really buy that he has no interest in lynching a scumread, and I don't buy the thought about a flawless scum victory. Feels like fear mongering and excuse to shove on shadow.
@Dels
I think I didn't explain my point well in that first point? Yes, pairs can be good and it's a natural part of PoE. I'm doing it too. Just the number of times I have felt like I've read "unless I'm very wrong" is like 100, which rubs me the wrong way, because duh.
The second point is in direct reply to Vaimes saying he doesn't even want to try for the rest of the Day essentially. It's less about fear and more about the fact that he is my second highest scum read right now, he has his vote parked on me, and he doesn't want to move it or do anything. Oh...that reminds me, check out this tasty quote of him contradicting this exact mindset in regards to LW:
842 - “Don't really find the mindset of "vote stays until further notice" to be town-indicative.”
Isn't that exactly what he is doing here? But actually worse since he is refusing to interact with me? Last at least continued interacting despite being stubborn with his vote. Vaimes first reply to me trying to ask him a question was "Read the thread."
This is just painting imo. I don't think this is a real read and I don't think he's remotely interested in understanding Vaimes.
Also of note on this point is part of what I was asking Vaimes about in the above quoted 585 post. Vaimes also ignored the fact that the shadow wagon stalled out which is giving me Vaimes/shadow s/s vibes. The fact that their apparent LW reads (which I will get to more) and side-stepping? this stalled shadow wagon thing has me thinking they are mind-melding, but they don't seem to be intentionally doing it, pointing it out, or even noticing it?
All of his reasoning in that post feels forced / fake but this is just never a real w/w read imo. Two people mindmelding is a reason for them to both be town, for one of them to be pocketed, or for them to be unaligned, not for them to be w/w. I don't know Hunger well enough to determine whether or not these can be real town thoughts from him, but the whole thing feels played up and I don't feel any real pulse of organic thought from him.
@Hunger: couple of quick things, the only pairs I pointed out early game were probable unaligned pairs.
Also, I cannot overstate just how much I dislike Last whisper's play style. So when I talk to my team and they said "hey, have you considered that last could potentially be scum" I got really excited, because a lynch on last would feel viscerally right, and I know that's terrible, but that's how I felt.
barely any motivation to read up
where i left off like a lot of pages ago, lissa town, shadow wolf, dels town, gemma shifting to town, starting to forget everything else
will try to find time for this later today
shadowlancerx - 2 (Gemma, Hunger)
Hunger - 1 (Vaimes)
Dels_8 - 1 (Lissa)
Lissa - 1 (Dels_8)
sheepsaysmeep - 1 (shadowlancerx)
Not Voting - 3 (Killjoy, Nancy Drew 39, sheepsaysmeep)
With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
The deadline is set for 2200BST on Saturday 18th August
Nancy is slated to return from V/LA on the 16th. There is currently no deadline extension planned.
Well you're everyone's favorite mislynch right now, so if you're town it would be great if you could find a way to make that a little harder for mafia to make happen. If you're wolfreading shadow right now, talk about the scum motivation he has for voting you in 1677.
You're deep the in PoE right now, which gives you a privileged position in terms of reading the gamestate, and you blabbing out every thought that comes into your head about what's going to on is going to help us hugely if you're town.
I posted my readscale in 1681, where I have him at 60/40 town/mafia, which is a weak scumread. I voted shadow because it put shadow/Hunger wagons at 2/2 and competing wagons on two slots that I think have a chance of being w/w and are almost never v/v helps me a great deal. shadow promptly moved off to sheep to dissipate this, which I think is pretty #interesting.
And right now I am pretty sure that 3/4 slots in the lynch pool are mafia, so it's pretty likely that if I land on scum there is going to be mafia bussing, and I think it's big of them to help out so I don't mind if that happens at all.
He doesn't really.
Particularly with the threadstate around sheep.
And it does make sense if both are wolves.
I've been feeling like I should write a bunch of words about various things but I'm not sure I have that many words really?
I feel significantly better about Dels when I step back some and my townread on Rhandslot has died pretty hard out of sheer stagnation. Just not enough at this point.
And game doesn't really make sense if neither of Dels/Rhandhunger is a wolf, worldswise. Either there'd be a super bad clear or nancy/sheep would both be wolves which I... really don't think is a thing.
I'm a little unnerved that it feels so simple now. Nancy/that slot annoys me, having someone not exist for 12 days out of 14 is ******* absurd. That one sequence would be just bizarre if she was a wolf though.
As an extension of the team thing I don't really think a world makes sense without shadow? Like it seems like it should always be shadow/(Dels/Rhandhunger)/(sheep/nancy) barring something having gone multiple layers of very wrong.
Basically whenever sheep makes a "overall" type read on Nancy it's a townread but literally all the specific commentary is negative. Like body-of-work positives with some issues are fine but this is extreme, in combination with his original posting about her it reads pretty glaringly like it's tmi that he thinks he's supposed to be townreading her while it isn't actually lining up with what he thinks about her posts.
This makes me feel pretty good about solidifying both the sheep read and nonteam read.
This is a particularly fun example. Literally the same minute.
Most of them aren't in sequence but he basically just goes back and forth between "nancy town" and "this thing nancy did was wolfy" repeatedly.
Welcome to my world, lol. The game looks very solved from where I'm standing and it's mostly just a matter of whether or not the team has you in it and which world I want to lynch into the most. Right now I'm pretty sure killing through shadow->Hunger->sheep->you wins the game, but there are still itty bitty worlds where Nancy or Vaimes are the third to one or another team which I'd like to completely rule out before dayend.
I think you're right in a way that it's difficult to find clear scum motivation for shadow there. When I dug into it looking at that world, I ended up so many layers deep that the read drowned in itself. I think the only thing that can really be said is that if Hunger is town, shadow is pulling a pretty -EV bus in order to probably ingratiate himself with Hunger and stock up a bit of towncred in the process, without really losing the Hunger mislynch, as well as to deny information from competing wagons.
I think it's pretty wolfy from shadow regardless of sheep or Hunger's alignments, simply because he is moving off his top scumread to vote the easiest wagon in the game currently (especially so if sheep is somehow town).
As an aside, I think the worlds where you're with both of Rhand/shadow are getting a little interesting, because your 1671 about the Rhand/shadow antialign has the most scum motivation in worlds where they're w/v (and the only world I have for you where they're v/v is you/sheep/Vaimes), whereas if you're mafia with shadow/Hunger you're currently trying to set yourself up to go deep. Pretty much your only realistic endgame here is an f3 situation where you've bussed through them both, MLed sheep, and are up against Nancy the wolfy villager with only an old day 1 interaction to her name. Furthermore, that only works if you manage to block or save the vig shot, since we win a lynch otherwise. So yeah if you're with shadow/Hunger, good luck, I'm secretly rooting for you.
Could you quote the glaringly TMI posts?
I don't agree that what you quoted is out of the ordinary for sheep, and I don't think "I should be townreading her but I think her posts are bad/scummy" is almost ever the way mafia think about a read, so if I'm just being stupid and not understanding you, help with more words please?
This is where I'm at right now:
KJ
Lissa
Gemma
everybody else
Regfan/Dels
Vaimes
shadow
A lot of the shadow read is the wagon stuff and timing that I mentioned, but also has to do with his interactions around Last. I'll pull quotes later, but I don't believe his read and vote on Last was genuine.
Vaimes also for interactions around Last as well as being colored by my shadow is scum world. One thing I need to do is check Vaimes/shadow interactions, but it feels like they have not really engaged?
Also, for both, my team independently came to a shadow/Vaimes scum read.
Regfan/Dels is a lot about Rhand having a strong read on the slot as well as some of what I've seen in Regfan posts so far. Again, I need to check that slots interactions with Vaimes/shadow and see if this world holds up.
KJ is town for uncountered vig claim and Rhand read. I've also played a decent amount with KJ in the past and I know Rhand has a pretty long history with him as well so I trust that read probably the most of Rhand's reads.
Lissa and Gemma I don't have anything super specific other than they just have felt genuine and non-angly. Lissa particularly around the Nancy entrance. Gemma it sounds like I should be wary of her as scum based on her self meta, but like if she is that good as town and I think pretty widely town read here, scum are going to have to take her out at some point because I don't think she is getting lynched any time soon. #WIFOM Also, ISO-ing her sounds like the least appealing thing I could possible do, so going to have to develop her read more from just finishing the thread and interacting going forward.
As a general observation on the thread - there is A TON of s/s, t/t, t/s, etc. alignment pairs being thrown around and almost all of it has the caveat of "or one of my reads is wayyy off." which is like, duh, and hedgy, and dangerous IMO.
"Hunger slot near certain mafia -> vote sheep -> avoid talking about reads to better spend time elsehwere -> interact with Hunger" doesn't make any sense to me as town process.
He hasn't been able to express a coherent world view, I don't think the way the majority of his reads have moved all game has felt real and there's frequently been a bunch of scum motivation for how they have moved.
Am also really unsettled by the way he's been coy with his roleclaim.
I think this post is quite frankly just shadow openly howling. It's very clear that I'm not asking him to talk about himself. I think he's conceding that he can't talk about his reads because they're not real, and is trying to deflect and turn the problem back onto me.
I don't think his PoE the game style reads here is line with his town process and it adds to the increasing feeling I've been getting that he's just performing. I don't think his questions to me are useful at all, he gets absolutely nothing out of hearing me talk about how he's a wolf with someone else if he's town and I think asking that question right after saying that he didn't want to talk about himself is very disconnected mindset-wise and I don't think it's real.
I don't think voting sheep here makes sense when a couple of paragraphs earlier he said that Hunger is almost always scum. If he's town and genuinely has that read then pushing on another slot close to deadline when the Hunger wagon doesn't have much traction just doesn't happen like that unless he's insane and I don't think shadow is insane.
Vote: Rhand
I am smart and not at all sleepy I promise.
Hunger/Lissa + 1 is my homework for tomorrow I guess.
idfk what Cantrip thinks of me but I kiiiinda doubt Grape scumreads me here.
Also sorry but this Day has reached a Maximum Capacity for me in terms of how much content there is to read.
Good thing I'm already voting Hunger.
I think he finds posts he doesn't like and comments on them to say something and then is like "but I should be townreading her".
None of the posts are super weird independently it's the frequency of the pattern.
I think if it was a real read there would be SOME amount of talking about why he townreads her, like I don't really have a high bar for this, but some, that or he'd be worried about his read at least a little, because he says a fair few negative things and 0 positive and his overall read is never below null.
burn all 4 of them.
what i was going to say is that the dying remnants of my townread on shadow make me wanna stick with shadow being the towny and the team being sheep/lissa/hunger. i keep reading your posts on shadow and thinking "wow he really is lacking, why hasn't he had any depth/progression" and then he answers and i'm like "eh ok nah he's fine i guess". i don't have AS much of a problem with his "i'm not answering your questions" post as you, just because it... seems in line with how shadow plays the game? but it's also like, you weren't asking him to talk about himself, you were asking him to explain his reads, and he... seemingly can't, or won't. like i expected to come into this day having you and shadow as my main allies, and only half of that happened. has shadow posted less today? irl is irl, i know that. did i misread day 1 because i was reading it all at once and he wasn't as big a force as i remember? but also, the way shadow's scumgame was described to me by my team is "smooth" and this is literally the opposite of smooth. also, having had some time to meditate on the shadow/hunger w/w stuff, i was leaning towards starting with the assumption that it's not. i think it could be. i'm not ruling it out at all. but considering they were both voting each other all of day 1, and then shadow picked it right back up today... i know how it could be, but with other things, i've been leaning towards sheep/lissa +1.
i was being way too naively reactionary to lissa's posts the other day. i'm really happy that we have more of a dialogue now and that she was being more openminded and stuff. but i don't think anything she said in those posts is really impossible for her to say as a wolf, and in fact a lot of it is kind of what she'd have to say. so i kind of slapped myself and reminded myself that she's probably still a wolf.
and then sheep. he... hasn't... done anything today. i think his day 1 looks w/w with someone. i can't tell who. it looks very w/w with rhand and lissa, and potentially with shadow as well. (the last time i said this about someone, they were a w, but with none of the people i called them w/w with for having the most lacking progressions)
so i've sort of been trusting my gut and leaning hunger/sheep/lissa the past few days, despite all 4 of them being scummy.
but your post on shadow here just makes me want to be like "okay, no, **** it, shadow is a wolf". there is a limit to how much i can give him a pass. i do believe the reasons i had to townread shadow were good, but... it's just not holding up anymore. it's not enough evidence.
so when i read your post on shadow i was like "okay yeah, shadow is the scum, and hunger's post there wasn't bad at all" and then you vote hunger and i'm like "omg it's actually hunger after all?!" (i'm very easy to sway so please use clear direct language to tell me who the scum actually are lol)
lissa's post here isn't bad either.
and this basically all lines up with the fact that, hunger and shadow and lissa all give me some reason to think/trust/hope that they are the townie, and sheep... isn't.
and i think lissa actually makes a good point that sheep's nancy progression isn't as much of a + as i thought. i thought it was good that sheep was giving nancy the meta townread and had some nuance to it, but now i'm like... ??? it's actually kind of weird. i don't think the "TMI" thing makes sense, you are right, it's kind of the opposite of TMI, since TMI means you fight for the read you know is right, and if sheep is scum he's basically giving the read he knows is right, but not... actually backing it up. which is still weird i guess because why say the meta thing at all. but i don't know.
i don't want to take the easy lynch on sheep, but it really seems like the most likely to hit scum to me. (my team from a week ago would lol) i am aware that it's a lazy answer and i still have to figure out which other 2 are scum, and god i hope i'll have enough drive left to do that, but when i said i had an idea of what i wanted to do today, i meant that i think i wanna lynch sheep. the only + i really have in sheep's favour after the ISO is the nancy/last meta reads, and it doesn't hold up. the static reads are really bothering me, because the town!sheep i know would constantly be coming in and reeavluating reads, like each new post would make him post a new "X's recent posts better" "Y looking worse" and just generally being more confused. even earlier when he came in and gave reads again he just restates the ones he already had. the reason i didn't wanna say this is because it looked from the most recent pages like people were converging on sheep anyway, and shadow just voted him, so i wanted to see what everyone else did before piling on. but, since you asked... that's where i'm at.
tell me what's so bad about hunger's post?
btw @hunger you should know that i have a team that says they have played 30+ games with vaimes and they've never read him wrong a single time and they say he is town here with pretty high certainty. i know that's not what you wanna hear but trust me, at this point in my mafia career, i've learned to just trust this stuff.
also gemma i don't think lissa was shading nancy for being V/LA, just saying it was frustrating
@Dels/Gemma: I guess I feel like I’ve laid my reads out pretty openly and it’s frustrating because I feel like just spend all the time I have for this game talking about my own thoughts on things ad nauseam instead of actually getting to do anything productive, and it’s lead to me feeling like I’m defending and explaining reads that I am not even that confident in anymore. But when I am here tonight I’ll give you a bit more about my thought process around where I see the game state.
Talk me through what you don't like, I'd be happy to explain my thought process.
Also, what do you think about shadow's push on Last yesterDay? And his wagon stalling at 3 for basically the entire Day and then shadow voting like 4 different people?
I hear you on the content, but are you not at all worried about getting it wrong? Look what happened D1? No one came to consensus and the day stalled out with no real pushes and a concession lynch happened on town.
What are your thoughts on the vote count stuff I brought up and on shadow's Last push yesterDay?
i think my order right now is something like sheep > shadow > hunger > lissa
but that's entirely from recency bias, i like the way that lissa is pushing sheep here a lot more than how shadow did it (or rather, didn't, just voted and uhh yeah), and it feels like lissa is finally starting to get on basically the same page as me about the game, and it doesn't feel forced. (i.e. it doesn't feel like she's doing it just because it's what i said/expected) also letting myself be influenced by the fact that shadow looks pretty bad right now and the way lissa is against him here, again, feels less likely to be w/w than the shadow/hungerrhand stuff. and i just went back and read lissa's post on shadow/rhand and i'm back to thinking it can just be w/w. but the last two spots are really close for me, i'm far from locked in here.
@Vaimes
585 - Why just on my slot when shadow had the same number of votes over a longer period of time and we have two confirmed town on his wagon?
Multiple times you mentioned that Last was scummy for the way his reads are all over the place. I know for a fact that you are aware of him doing this as town. So what was different in this game?
842 - What's your through process on the scum mindset here?
Also, [redacted]
I think the answer is pretty straightforwardly clearing you? It's kind of scary but I don't think it's super reasonable/realistic fear anymore.
sorry if my comment to you sounded blunt. it's because I said practically the same exact thing as you to my team at first, and eventually I had to admit that like, they just aren't wrong about him. (barring some strange... whatever the opposite of a miracle is)
I would love to talk to you about your new points but a) wagon analysis is really not my thing so that stuff goes over my head and b) like vaimes, I am kind of just completely burnt out. I apologize if you are town because it means I'm not really able to work with you as best as I can, but I hope you can see why considering how the first week of this phase went.
I tried writing out some responses to your points here but I realized there was only one point I even had anything to say about, which is that I actually liked shadow's progression onto last, felt shadow's annoyance at last was clear, and when he finally voted, it was based on a team read and a reason that I felt showed a fair amount of depth. I talk about this in my big shadow post at SoD2.
it's down again now which means uh you might not see this. but, just so you know.
also @hunger, I didn't realize you had a sir chris quote in your sig, haha! I disabled sigs, but when I went to log in on firefox and viewed the page as a guest for a moment, I saw it =P
hunger what I've noticed twice now from you is these comments:
they both feel very, like... "oh but what if you're getting everything wrong?! be careful!" to me, in a way that is, like, less constructive, and more just... casting fear for the sake of it?
like, yes, we are talking a lot about w/w or "1 of these 2 must be scum" stuff. i'm not really a fan of it in general, but the fact is people are backing those reads up. the main reason we are talking about w/w stuff is because we have a PoE and we have reasons to be looking at how the people in the PoE have interacted with each other and what their pushes on each other have led to. personally i never look at something and say "it is w/w", i do the opposite, i want to see if i can clear stuff as being "not-w/w", and if I can't, then i admit it's possible. either way, i think people are backing up these reads, not just throwing them out there weakly, so your point here is sort of ignoring the context and the work that's going into it.
and as for the second point, idk, it just feels like a "but what if you're wrong" to me. we're not getting a concession lynch today, in fact i think the town... okay, well, myself and gemma at least, and i'm just assuming others roughly agree, have a pretty clear concensus PoE today. i don't really see any reason to draw a parralel between the day 1 situation and this.
@gemma: please tell me what your issue was with hunger's post. upon rereading it to try to respond i realized it really doesn't have as many new things as i thought. also i know i'd be a ******* hypocrite to agree with vaimes "i'm not sure your team would scumread me" but... idk. what do you think of lissa on this page? if i'm letting recency blind me then let me know. because right now i'm kind of wanting to agree with you on shadow and hunger, and then have sheep as the 3rd instead of lissa. is that wrong?
I think I didn't explain my point well in that first point? Yes, pairs can be good and it's a natural part of PoE. I'm doing it too. Just the number of times I have felt like I've read "unless I'm very wrong" is like 100, which rubs me the wrong way, because duh.
The second point is in direct reply to Vaimes saying he doesn't even want to try for the rest of the Day essentially. It's less about fear and more about the fact that he is my second highest scum read right now, he has his vote parked on me, and he doesn't want to move it or do anything. Oh...that reminds me, check out this tasty quote of him contradicting this exact mindset in regards to LW:
842 - “Don't really find the mindset of "vote stays until further notice" to be town-indicative.”
Isn't that exactly what he is doing here? But actually worse since he is refusing to interact with me? Last at least continued interacting despite being stubborn with his vote. Vaimes first reply to me trying to ask him a question was "Read the thread."
heck even if lissa or sheep are scum (at least one likely is), it'd read to me like lissa knows she can't push nancy after that day 1 stuff, and it already reads (as lissa pointed out) like sheep knows nancy is town and feels he has to say it, but that he can't follow through.
and yeah i get it with the vaimes thing. i kinda empathize with him, and it's mostly my own fault. i honestly am going to be posting less, its just i wanted to catch up on the entirety of day 1 and i think the work gemma and i did has been pretty damn useful.
the hypocrisy you have detected is noted. =P i would almost certainly be agreeing with you if i hadn't been browbeaten into... not doing that.
i don't think you're scum for those two "be careful" points but it seemed like it could be a way you are trying to seem reasonable and/or try to discredit the town's process, so i wanted to pointed it out. it's probably NAI. i have some other thoughts on your post but i'm shutting up now 'cause me thinking out loud into the thread is not helpful and i should've posted less today.
also i was waiting for someone to post and/or for an hour to pass to do this
Unvote: Lissa
Not gonna immediately revote, but as of now I plan to vote Sheep. Liable to change, though.
One big general issue that has me like /sideyes at this game up to the point I have read, is that shadow seems to be a pretty consensus bottom three read by most of the game, but he has never eclipsed 3 votes? The only thing I have come across as reasoning is Gemma earlier saying she would rather lynch lurkers than active posters. Why is this a thing? Why isn't he getting more pressure?
I also want to hear from more people what they think of my first post and why the shadow wagon D1 stalled out so hard?
I didn't like shadow's early game of setting up pairs right away. I know for a fact I have been lynched as scum for doing that, but then reading more it seems like A LOT of people are doing that? Maybe a MTGS meta shift since I last played...
604 - Feels soooo flat and emotionless. Like, "hey, look at me saying town things that I don't really actually care about!" That's just one quote, but I get that flat affect in a number of his posts despite the fact that he has said multiple times he's just super excited...I just don't FEEL that so it seems forced and fake.
610 - Starting with this post shadow has a conversation with Gemma about how his wagon also stalled out like Rhand's. I bring this up because his reaction to my first post talking about this point and even thanking me for pointing it out made me think he wasn't really aware of this, but clearly he must have been. The reasoning he provides is he is a riskier push than Rhand for scum to make and when I pushed him on that he said in part because he hadn't been coy about claiming a PR, but as far as I've seen up to that point in the thread on D1 where his wagon was stalling, he hadn't hinted at all? Am I being daft and just missed it?
Also of note on this point is part of what I was asking Vaimes about in the above quoted 585 post. Vaimes also ignored the fact that the shadow wagon stalled out which is giving me Vaimes/shadow s/s vibes. The fact that their apparent LW reads (which I will get to more) and side-stepping? this stalled shadow wagon thing has me thinking they are mind-melding, but they don't seem to be intentionally doing it, pointing it out, or even noticing it?
re:LW
715 - I hate this phrasing so much. "I want to try something." Like, what is that? I don't buy that this is shadow actually thinking Last is scum.
747 - You have played with Last plenty of times to know that that behavior is EXACTLY in his town-game.
The "No NK/No Lylo" thing also feels tacked on. This is where I wanted to ask Gemma/someone if I'm being crazy and that you are just openly wolfing here because you talked with your team about killing Last toNight and the "try something" is you creating distance from that with this post.
817 - And then not only that, but here if you are doing what I'm tinfoiling on in the last quote, you are doubling-down trying to call Last out for exactly what you are doing! Which makes it all the more likely for you to be able to point to those posts and say, "hey man, no way I would openly say this if I am wolf."
911 - And this is Last confirming what I had been seeing up to this point. shadow has a good meta on Last and this is not it.
919 - And this is shadow's reply to the whole situation, which is again, just...flat and like, "nuh uh, no I didn't!" I think someone after this says something along those lines too. Gemma maybe? I didn't take note who it was.
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/763976-2016-mtgs-mafia-invitational-hearthstone-mafia?page=9#c405
also while i'm linking stuff, here is a gemma scumgame:
https://forums.darklordpotter.net/threads/tinyhunt-8.37662/
if you ever have time and want to do some research there to assuage your fears
Haha, yeah I looked it up and it was a Castlevania game that you and I were in which was I think the first game by any of the Gamefaqs crew? I miss Sir Chris.
I don't have the time/energy to really look into Vaimes toDay. If I'm alive tomorrow I probably will. It would also depend a bit on how shadow flips and me actually ISO'ing them both in this game. It's possible this world I built with shadow/Vaimes isn't viable.
I haven't read all of this page yet, but my post about shadow wasn't so much a scum case as me putting my thoughts about him out into thread in the hopes that someone would have something to say about them, because I don't think the reasoning I put forward is very strong and I don't think it's necessarily super far out of his town range, and I'd like to hear more voices on that.
What I hated about Hunger's post is that he's given a bunch of quasi-reads and quasi-stances, his shadow read feels too sticky yet directionless, his take on me smells of TMI, his KJ bit is overdone, the "my team and I independently scumread Vaimes" doesn't sound real, and no one should ever have Lissa as high as he does. There was almost more "something for later" than there was actual content. The whole post was very very fake imo and it reeks of busywork / him just eating through the thread without actually doing anything meaningful or even trying to make an impact on the gamestate currently. (Also, look at the bit where he talks about sheep. ... ...)
It sounds like you need to slow down and take a few deep breaths?
I don't actually think Lissa's push on sheep makes a huge amount of sense. I can squint and see it being a real read after her clarification, but I don't think the reasoning stands up for itself. It's entirely plausible that sheep just didn't bring up the stuff he thought was towny about Nancy. I very frequently have someone as a townread and feel like I don't need to talk about why, and will only really talk about the read when I poke at it in thread. It feels like she's painting him as mafia more than anything, honestly.
my shadow paranoia is just so high that i read it as a case. i mean, you make good points. particularly, asking him to explain his reads is not him "talking about himself". it's like, the opposite. shadow has had a decent number of reads that i haven't fully followed and i wish he had actually answered with clarifications instead of that.
i see the hunger stuff now. what is his KJ bit? also is the joke that he didn't talk about sheep?
idk, read the rest of the stuff i posted and let me know where you're at. i will stay calm i promise. i'm just in a weird position where i'm pretty sure the PoE of 4 is right, I just don't know within it which is right. and every time you make a post about lissa or shadow or hunger i'm like "ok that person is definitely the scum" but then i say it about all 4. which is why i need to calm down.
It's weird that you don't think Lissa's push on sheep feels forced, because it does to me, and I think if she's scum with Hunger here then it's her best play, especially if shadow is town and she doesn't want to push on him. If you track her shadow scumread, she came around pretty strongly to him being mafia here, yet hasn't actually pushed on him and is now going for sheep. I don't think that makes much sense in a very similar way to how shadow pushing off Hunger onto sheep doesn't make sense, and I haven't seen her thinking about "huh why is shadow on this wagon with me" or such at all. I think it's probably a worse look for her than it is for shadow, though.
There are more things that are starting to align for me with shadow v/Hunger w worlds - Lissa retracting her Rhand/shadow antialign (which I think was also a weird read to make given she was townreading Rhand), Hunger's read on Lissa, Lissa and Hunger's treatment of shadow. I should make a separate post about this, but I'm kind of feeling a Hunger/Lissa team rn. You've moved away from that, so I'd appreciate your thoughts on whether I'm insane or selling myself a narrative or such.
And I mean.
I haven't really been pushing anything today other than when I was pushing Dels?
I don't really care right now which of shadow/sheep/hunger is the lynch and lynching in there isn't an uncommon thought or one that really.... needs pushing.
I don't really like, push super hard in spots like that, don't feel like I need to and don't even know what there is to push.
With regards to "why is shadow on this wagon with me" I think the wolfteam is pretty damn boxed in today in that world.
That being said, Nancy is a pet read, and I basically think I've been stuck in this place where it's a read against the grain that reminded me of a similar situation in another game. I...am probably just wrong. You're telling me I'm wrong, everyone else is telling me I'm wrong, it's not the same situation, I'm probably looking for reasons to justify it instead of looking for an honest read there. I don't think I can completely lock her in as town, but I'll try and look at the game through a broader lens. So Lissa is never w/w with Nancy, but in addition to that, she's basically played with no guile. Like, she takes her time getting a feel for the game, then comes in periodically to offer thoughts without like, trying to push a narrative. I kind of think if she is scum, she would be playing in such a way that she'd get credit for any of stances she's taken. I pushed Rhand pretty hard yesterday, I don't know what you're smoking. Today he's not been present, and Hunger coming into the game has been like...okay posting and I'm somewhat paranoid that he is town and he and I are being setup to be chain lynched. To add onto above, I think if one of Hunger/sheep is town, Hunger is more likely to show it. But yeah, a lot of it is paranoia, and it's probably just me being dumb. Purely a shrinking PoE.
~~~~~
So where am I at?
I'm town.
KJ is town.
Gemma is town.
I think Vaimes is town.
Nancy is...probably just town.
Lissa, Hunger, sheep, Dels
Ugh. I feel like everyone there has some reason or another to be town.
I'm rereading those 4. Probably be back in the morning; I've got a sick wife and I've been fighting off the stirrings of a cold myself.
This is just painting imo. I don't think this is a real read and I don't think he's remotely interested in understanding Vaimes.
All of his reasoning in that post feels forced / fake but this is just never a real w/w read imo. Two people mindmelding is a reason for them to both be town, for one of them to be pocketed, or for them to be unaligned, not for them to be w/w. I don't know Hunger well enough to determine whether or not these can be real town thoughts from him, but the whole thing feels played up and I don't feel any real pulse of organic thought from him.
Also, I cannot overstate just how much I dislike Last whisper's play style. So when I talk to my team and they said "hey, have you considered that last could potentially be scum" I got really excited, because a lynch on last would feel viscerally right, and I know that's terrible, but that's how I felt.