Um, explain how sheep's post makes sense in any other way than "Last can't be in anti spew mode, I'm strongly town reading him / he is strongly town read", please?
I agree with worldbuilding being sort of difficult for Rhand. At a quick glance, I think Rhand/Lissa is weird because Lissa defended him pretty clearly, Rhand/Vaimes is weird for the whole progression I outlined, Rhand/Shadow is weird because of the massive distancing, Rhand/KJ is weird because KJ is saying Rhand is his top suspect today, leaving... well, Rhand/Dels is weird because he’s voting me, so…
rhand/gemma
rhand/sheep
rhand/nancy
are the ones that don’t have anything majorly weird at first glance? that’s not even true, rhand had gemma as scum for the same reasons as LW and I think he explained the gemma read MORE than he explained the reg/shadow reads, he said they were in association with her.
so basically the most obvious team for rhand scum would be something like rhand/sheep/nancy, which would include sheep/nancy together which also doesn’t feel right.
sorry i’m pretty useless at this. i don’t really think the “weird” pairings are ruled out anyway. lissa has defended rhand but did rhand talk much about lissa? a defense can be w/w though i tend to think scum won’t blatantly defend their buddies like that. and any of the others can be distancing. so… ultimately i’ve got nothing. hope this helps lol.
I town read his tone, yes. Tone is a Good Enough thing that I'll use as the basis for a day 1 read, it doesn't have a lot of longevity for me. I wasn't talking about the things I disliked about him very much day 1 because I didn't want to encourage the absurd tunneling that was going on, which is probably why it looked more like paranoia to you. He has never been more than a weak town read, never more than a weak scum read. I don't entirely understand how your read on him has been so heavily a gut thing when you've written more about why he is town then anyone else in the game? Where's your paranoia stemming from atm?
interesting that you had things against him day 1 that you didn't mention. yeah, i saw it as paranoia. my read on him isn't a gut thing, if anything i said i was trusting your gut, but that was just my initial impression, i wouldn't have townread him for that if i hadn't liked his posts for all the reasons i outlined, and i still feel his stubbornness/aggression feels real. i don't think "paranoia" was the right word right now, moreso that the read has dropped after a) thinking KJ might be town and b) looking into his ISO again. but that also might be very... reactionary, and i do still think he is town. kinda wanna see what he has to say about those reads progressions though. i admit my team said that if KJ is town they wouldn't just auto-drop lissa, they'd stick with the other 2 scumreads but might tinfoil shadow a bit, and i'm enough of a sheep that i'm letting that influence me as well. (but no they gave no actual reasons for it and i wasn't around to question it so i have nothing else to give you there atm)
When I said I didn't want to lynch shadow day 1 as a thing, then was later weighing up whether or not I wanted to vote him, that's probably a sign that I have a little more than a niggle about him.
I read sheep's reaction to you in the same way as shadow/your team, yeah. Overenthusiastic to call someone town for weak reasons. (Stop calling it a reaction test, it wasn't a reaction test.)
Um, explain how sheep's post makes sense in any other way than "Last can't be in anti spew mode, I'm strongly town reading him / he is strongly town read", please?
i have no idea what you mean. ...did sheep clarify why he had that read?
also the key is the "because". and also that sheep didn't just say "last can't be in anti spew mode", he said "i don't see how you can have this read"
your post about it implied you think that the reason shadow can't have that read is because he knows sheep townreads him, and that that's wrong because shadow wouldn't care what sheep thinks. i'm saying i don't think sheep was saying the read doesn't make sense because of that, they were two seperate thoughts. am i making sense?
I'm still not really sold on Dels being town, as much as I suspect he may be out of range here. Am kind of worried by his KJ push, Reg strongly believed the slot to be town and it's strange that that read has vanished from the team's consciousness. I think KJ is pretty obviously town here and I don't think the WG progression is a real reason to scum read him, nor do I think his WG progression was even bad. There's a weird quality to Dels' posting that feels like he's not really engaging with the game as it is at present and is instead almost living in the past, if that makes sense. I don't feel like he's pursuing anything, and his town game as I've seen it feels like a constant chase, so that's a pretty real concern for me.
And when I go through my reads I just can't find a third, Rhand and sheep are lowest in my reads but none of Vaimes/Lissa/Nancy/shadow make sense as the third for that team. Dels fits in there on a number of levels except like... I don't really have a scum read on the slot and I think about stuff like "I'm hurt that you don't town read me even after I AtE'd you" and it just feels too on the nose to be coming from mafia.
i think you may be vastly overestimating how much my team followed this game on day 1. for [reasons]. i wouldn’t really read too much into if reg’s views reflected the views of the team or how mine relate to his. my team wanted me to say this as well, though i didn’t feel it was relevant, but since you’ve brought it up.
also if i feel stuck in the past it could be because i had to catch up on an entire day i missed? and i think you have some wrong meta if you’d associate my town game with a “constant chase”, i can elaborate on this if it’s a real concern for you but otherwise i’d rather not.
also the AtE stuff was a semi-joke in response to you saying i was a logical player. had nothing to do with you saying you didn’t townread me.
sorry if any of this is unnecessary, it's just in my nature to clear up any misconceptions about me, just in case.
I agree with worldbuilding being sort of difficult for Rhand. At a quick glance, I think Rhand/Lissa is weird because Lissa defended him pretty clearly, Rhand/Vaimes is weird for the whole progression I outlined, Rhand/Shadow is weird because of the massive distancing, Rhand/KJ is weird because KJ is saying Rhand is his top suspect today, leaving... well, Rhand/Dels is weird because he’s voting me, so…
rhand/gemma
rhand/sheep
rhand/nancy
are the ones that don’t have anything majorly weird at first glance? that’s not even true, rhand had gemma as scum for the same reasons as LW and I think he explained the gemma read MORE than he explained the reg/shadow reads, he said they were in association with her.
so basically the most obvious team for rhand scum would be something like rhand/sheep/nancy, which would include sheep/nancy together which also doesn’t feel right.
sorry i’m pretty useless at this. i don’t really think the “weird” pairings are ruled out anyway. lissa has defended rhand but did rhand talk much about lissa? a defense can be w/w though i tend to think scum won’t blatantly defend their buddies like that. and any of the others can be distancing. so… ultimately i’ve got nothing. hope this helps lol.
What feels unaligned to me about Rhand/Lissa is not that she has defended him, but the way she has positioned him in her reads and latched on to a really specific thing without really doing anything substantial outside of that to help him. I don't think they can't be together, but it's definitely weird if they're partners. And, you goober, I never case my partner on page 3 then hit them with a monster wall followup and spend the rest of the game snipping at them for not posting, if there's anyone I can never be with this game it's Rhand.
Um, explain how sheep's post makes sense in any other way than "Last can't be in anti spew mode, I'm strongly town reading him / he is strongly town read", please?
i have no idea what you mean. ...did sheep clarify why he had that read?
also the key is the "because". and also that sheep didn't just say "last can't be in anti spew mode", he said "i don't see how you can have this read"
your post about it implied you think that the reason shadow can't have that read is because he knows sheep townreads him, and that that's wrong because shadow wouldn't care what sheep thinks. i'm saying i don't think sheep was saying the read doesn't make sense because of that, they were two seperate thoughts. am i making sense?
Sense not made.
shadow: Last is in anti spew
sheep: you're wrong, and because you're wrong your thought can't be real
Yes?
(Newcomb has now successfully locked us as never wolves together.)
Anyway, I agree re. the Nancy stuff. I do see what Shadow is saying, that keeping up a tunnel on Lissa wouldn't really help, but I agree the way she changed course and then really defended it is good. This is all stuff that I said in my Nancy post so the fact that you agree makes me feel more confident in it. Regarding your idea that maybe Nancy realized you weren't happy with the Lissa push and therefore turned it around... uh, no offense but I don't feel Nancy is the kind of person who is self-aware enough as scum to really notice that and change based on it.
I think that's everything, so I'll be back tonight.
But basically at this point (my god we are only barely 1/3rd through the day) my reads list from earlier has become... a lot more of a sort of jumble. I can't give a reads list any more at this point, but where I'm at is that I still feel like KJ's posts are bad but that he may be town, and if he's town, and if Vaimes is town (which I admit seems likely and if not, it's what I have to go with right now) then Rhand drops, Lissa stays a ??? and my gut says scum even if there's no strong reason for it, but I'm not gonna be impatient, I have the entire day to evaluate that. And then w/ Sheep I have to admit my team may be right that sheep is just scum, but I still don't have any real reason to think that besides just PoE, and the last thing I want to do is mislynch Sheep again for PoE reasons. Still assuming Nancy is town, and still think Shadow is town but have doubts. No doubts on Gemma.
I'm still not really sold on Dels being town, as much as I suspect he may be out of range here. Am kind of worried by his KJ push, Reg strongly believed the slot to be town and it's strange that that read has vanished from the team's consciousness. I think KJ is pretty obviously town here and I don't think the WG progression is a real reason to scum read him, nor do I think his WG progression was even bad. There's a weird quality to Dels' posting that feels like he's not really engaging with the game as it is at present and is instead almost living in the past, if that makes sense. I don't feel like he's pursuing anything, and his town game as I've seen it feels like a constant chase, so that's a pretty real concern for me.
And when I go through my reads I just can't find a third, Rhand and sheep are lowest in my reads but none of Vaimes/Lissa/Nancy/shadow make sense as the third for that team. Dels fits in there on a number of levels except like... I don't really have a scum read on the slot and I think about stuff like "I'm hurt that you don't town read me even after I AtE'd you" and it just feels too on the nose to be coming from mafia.
i think you may be vastly overestimating how much my team followed this game on day 1. for [reasons]. i wouldn’t really read too much into if reg’s views reflected the views of the team or how mine relate to his. my team wanted me to say this as well, though i didn’t feel it was relevant, but since you’ve brought it up.
also if i feel stuck in the past it could be because i had to catch up on an entire day i missed? and i think you have some wrong meta if you’d associate my town game with a “constant chase”, i can elaborate on this if it’s a real concern for you but otherwise i’d rather not.
also the AtE stuff was a semi-joke in response to you saying i was a logical player. had nothing to do with you saying you didn’t townread me.
sorry if any of this is unnecessary, it's just in my nature to clear up any misconceptions about me, just in case.
Mmm, I figured they would have read up by now since they seem more engaged. Overestimating how much Reg told them what his reads were, maybe. I know Newcomb in particular was following along day 1, even if Voxx had no eyeballs. And no, nothing is ever unnecessary with me.
shadow: Last is in anti spew
sheep: you're wrong, and because you're wrong your thought can't be real
Yes?
(Newcomb has now successfully locked us as never wolves together.)
Yes...
but in your post where you took issue with it, that's not what you said. you said that the reason shadow's thought isn't real is because shadow knows that sheep feels differently, and would base his opinion on sheep.
what you're saying in this post is not that. what you're summarizing/paraphrasing in this post makes sense as a read from sheep.
do you see why its two different things and not what you initially said?
Anyway, I agree re. the Nancy stuff. I do see what Shadow is saying, that keeping up a tunnel on Lissa wouldn't really help, but I agree the way she changed course and then really defended it is good. This is all stuff that I said in my Nancy post so the fact that you agree makes me feel more confident in it. Regarding your idea that maybe Nancy realized you weren't happy with the Lissa push and therefore turned it around... uh, no offense but I don't feel Nancy is the kind of person who is self-aware enough as scum to really notice that and change based on it.
I think that's everything, so I'll be back tonight.
But basically at this point (my god we are only barely 1/3rd through the day) my reads list from earlier has become... a lot more of a sort of jumble. I can't give a reads list any more at this point, but where I'm at is that I still feel like KJ's posts are bad but that he may be town, and if he's town, and if Vaimes is town (which I admit seems likely and if not, it's what I have to go with right now) then Rhand drops, Lissa stays a ??? and my gut says scum even if there's no strong reason for it, but I'm not gonna be impatient, I have the entire day to evaluate that. And then w/ Sheep I have to admit my team may be right that sheep is just scum, but I still don't have any real reason to think that besides just PoE, and the last thing I want to do is mislynch Sheep again for PoE reasons. Still assuming Nancy is town, and still think Shadow is town but have doubts. No doubts on Gemma.
I spent two ******* hours on a big response to your Nancy read, went over my own thoughts in a bunch of detail, and lost it because my browser decided to leave the page without prompting me. Yeah, you touched on a lot of the stuff that I liked about her. Some stuff I didn't quite agree on. There are a lot of little mindset things sprinkled throughout her ISO that feel really good. Just the lack of actual scum hunting. And yeah, not self-aware enough is part of what I was getting at when I said I don't think she'd be capable of faking that in the way she did.
Talk to me about this vote, Von? Why do you think sheep is a wolf here and why do you want to lynch him over, say, Nancy?
Would also really like to hear your thoughts on Dels because I don't think you've really responded to his content today and I'm missing a little of the wider perspective from you this game.
Putting words in my mouth. Bad Gemma.
He's sliding down my reads pretty quickly. I don't think he has meaningfully tried to solve for the alignment of a single player in this game, or at least not since he became everyone's first townread. He's been holding you at arms' length and talking about how null you are. Also I think he may have TMI'd he knows I'm town when he said you were trying to pocket me and him. I don't really like his "Dels' reaction to Gemma's redcheck was super towny," it was definitely an expected reaction and even one I had, as much as I would have liked for a PR to catch scum!Del.
I don't have a read on Nancy because she hasn't been here. I thought ~some of her posts were towny, in a non-self-aware kind of way, but the read has gotten super stale.
What even is your read on Del? I swear it's like every new post from you says "I love Del he's so towny" or "Still think Del could be mafia" and I can't follow it.
I'm trying not to confbias my initial scumread, but it really just seems like he's putting on a town show rather than just being town. And unless I missed it (which is possible because he has too many wallposts), he hasn't made a meaningful attempt to solve for who can be scum with Killjoy, not even a guess. It's all "this person isn't a townread but they don't really fit." Which makes his whole case look like him pushing a scummy villager rather than actually catching a wolf.
Anyway, the "no scumteam fits" vibes usually mean there's a scum in the townreads (The 100 endgame, hi), and I think it's likely to be Del.
Also his treatment of me is super weird. I think his team is warning him to townread me early because I'm a ***** to push a mislynch on, and Del is trying not to townread me. Because with Newcomb and Voxx on his side, any push on me when I'm town would be a scumclaim from him.
That's a really self-centered view of the game I'm entertaining.
i was thinking about lissa a lot today and even though everything i said stands (i think she's had some good points and i want to work with her throughout the day and see how it feels) I'm just really not feeling great about her today
and i think the reason why is it feels like every interaction i've had with lissa today has felt a bit... pointless (sorry lissa)
like the main three things were that she had an issue with me starting with a townread/being excited about it, and that conversation felt like... like all i had to say was "well i talk about townreads" and she kind of... kept pushing it to the point where i really had nothing else to actually say, because what is there to even discuss, it's a thing i do and i said that and that's that
and the conversation about nancy re. what "defensive" means, it felt like it devolved into semantics, and granted, i kept replying too, but the whole thing kind of felt like it went on... too long? which is a weird statement i guess but you know what i mean? the conversation i had with lissa about these two things didn't feel like it was going anywhere, and that feels strange because i would expect a conversation i have with lissa to lead to some pretty good insight.
and then just now she said she wanted to talk about the KJ thing and, yes, she gave her opinion on it and its valid, but i found myself still struggling to know what to really say other than like "well you think his disengagement is townie and i... didn't... but okay, valid"
tell me if i'm being silly but i just feel like i expected more
and I totally get that there's no strong reason to suspect her, it's just... it feels off. plus like i said, i find it strange that lissa of all people had a problem with the "talking about a townread" thing because lissa actually knows me and knows it's a thing i do.
so that's kind of where I'm at there. I'm not, like, pushing lissa or anything right now, I just wanted to sort of get that off my chest. gemma let me know if you think i'm being crazy or overthinking it.
Want to make it clear that I am absolutely not the one who had issues with taking about a townread in general, just some aspects of the Gemma choice specifically and also the process of the read itself.
There isn’t really much to say about the rest of this.
Dels has so much stuff I wanna talk read and analyze but my next day off is in like 2 days.
I do wanna know though:
Dels: Do YOU think Wheat flipped the wrong alignment?
Also Rhand come talk to me please. You're currently my biggest scumread and I wanna talk to you.
Vaimes why do you feel disconnected to this game? I don't recall you feeling that way before except during Resistance and that was because it was Resistance via forum.
I still want to dig into and shore up/fine tune a few of these but this is roughly where I’m at I think
Gemma
Rhand
Vaimes
Killjoy
Nancy Drew 39
sheepsaysmeep
-
Dels
shadowlancerx
Tiers do not have internal order
I know this only applies to one tier but still
I'm kinda losing my Lissa townread rn.
I super struggle to see these as actually being your reads, especially shadow after how you've treated him all game.
I would write words about this but it's impossible to look anything up on this forum and I'd probably just lose my post if I tried anyway.
I mean my read is mostly EoD related.
But I didn’t actually have that strong of like, a townread on shadow before, or much of any read at all before today I just defend against things I think are bad and don’t really like lynching high volume people d1 generally and have given up correcting people who assume more than that shrug
Shadow it’s a thing I developed from my impression of you in this game which obviously does have some flaws but I think I can get a fairly okay baseline picture from it generally?
well gemma you'll be happy to know that the very first response i got to that post about lissa was from my own team basically disagreeing and saying that that's what she's does as a villager.
they said as villager she pokes at things that seem pointless, she does her own thing, and she basically just has an aura of lissa-y towniness even though my team doesn't usually understand why she is poking at the things she is. they say she does feel disconnected but that its probably just because of the 2-week days and that she is therefore not as into things. they say they base this on previous conversations with lissa regarding phase length stuff and that they think the stuff i posted is NAI.
honestly i agree more with what you just said, it does feel like posting for the sake of posting. like when she said "i have thoughts on the KJ stuff" i thought there'd be... like, more. but eh.
well gemma you'll be happy to know that the very first response i got to that post about lissa was from my own team basically disagreeing and saying that that's what she's does as a villager.
they said as villager she pokes at things that seem pointless, she does her own thing, and she basically just has an aura of lissa-y towniness even though my team doesn't usually understand why she is poking at the things she is. they say she does feel disconnected but that its probably just because of the 2-week days and that she is therefore not as into things. they say they base this on previous conversations with lissa regarding phase length stuff and that they think the stuff i posted is NAI.
honestly i agree more with what you just said, it does feel like posting for the sake of posting. like when she said "i have thoughts on the KJ stuff" i thought there'd be... like, more. but eh.
There kind of is tbh digging into it on phone is just annoying and I’ll be home tonight anyway.
Also frankly it kinda is posting for the sake of posting? I didn’t wanna just leave and not post for three days for a variety of reasons but it’s hard to want to do anything substantial on a phone when I’ll be back on a computer so soon.
So, @Shadow, I promise I still think you are town... I am just asking to be thorough, don't worry. But. Can you explain your Nancy progression? Because I noticed upon rereading this, that in that one post I said I liked in my earlier case, 555, you sort of conceded to Gemma that maybe some of the stuff you were scumreading Nancy for was NAI... but then I don't see any more posts from you about Nancy, or looking into it or talking with Gemma about it, unless I missed them. And then near the end of the day in 924 you say you'd lynch Nancy, and in 1272 you call for a vig shot on her. Did you do any reconsidering of Nancy after that post to Gemma? Or did your read just stay the same?
Mostly what Gemma said made me kinda just back down on it, but when it came down to it and after thinking about it more, I didn’t (and don’t) really think the arguments posed by Gemma there were AI, so much as “this is a playstyle, you get used to it”. Nancy played like scum, and like, if she’s town, it’s still scummy play. Her complete lack of real presence was the tipping factor at that point for me wanting her vigged; I think games too often take players to LyLo that have no business being there and almost certainly won’t contribute meaningfully enough to be solved.
Quote from Dels »
I also wanna ask about Roz. So, AFTER Roz pulls the "oh I have a role but I'm not claiming" act, you are pretty strongly against Roz and think he should be lynched for it. Shadow's case here is that that type of thing feels more like a scum act, doesn't feel genuine. (I agreed) But BEFORE that, the posts I see from you about Roz are sort of just... calling the slot underwhelming, saying they should be looked at, etc, saying the slot could be lynched. But there's no actual case. Which is fair enough, I get that Roz hadn't done much. But did you have a reason to specifically think Roz might flip scum, before Roz started doing all the weird stuff? Or was it just a "oh the slot hasn't done anything good, can die"? Because I was sort of surprised to never see an actual case from you for why Roz is scum, despite you being the one who sort of started the push there. (as far as i remember)
My biggest gripe early on was that Roz’s entrance was terrible, and then he vanished, kinda popping in wolfily throughout the day. Then the claim fiasco (Dear VTs, stop refusing to claim/fake claiming when a lynch is incoming. Just stop. If you want to be cagey, go for it, but claim when it’s time) really ticked me off, and I stand by saying that scum stand to benefit much more from that play than the town does.
As far as actual cases, I post 100% from mobile, so if I’m going to make a case, it’s probably LyLo, and I’m probably very sure (and probably wrong). I’ll give reasoning, I’ll break down posts and push people, but making a case is a lot of work.
Quote from Dels »
I guess I also kinda wanna ask about Last - throughout the day, did you really have a scumread on Last? Or was it mostly just annoyance? I assume it wasn't a scumread 'cause I remember you had Last high on your reads list, but can you just sort of clarify the progression there a bit more?
There were a couple of moments that I actually thought “holy crap, maybe Last is really scum,” (like when I suggested he might be intentionally not spewing everywhere) but when it comes down to it, I mostly just thought he looked like himself and while I’ve not seen his scum game, from what I’ve heard, I would be very surprised if it was that comparable.
well i have a bunch of things to respond to but i just remembered this one:
shadow can you explain why you said gemma feels "dead inside" or whatever? that's, like, completely not the impression i've gotten...? especially after the other night with the uh "joke". can you explain where that's coming from?
This is kind of a personality thing, but Gemma posts a lot, and seems bubbly, but like, she’s made some offhand comments here and there that are like...downright depressing. She seems like she is stuck with this low level frustration, and it’s the kind of thing that maybe I’m reading into, but makes me sad. On a gut level, I want people to enjoy playing the game, especially people I’ve played with and have built a friendship with.
I'm trying not to confbias my initial scumread, but it really just seems like he's putting on a town show rather than just being town. And unless I missed it (which is possible because he has too many wallposts), he hasn't made a meaningful attempt to solve for who can be scum with Killjoy, not even a guess. It's all "this person isn't a townread but they don't really fit." Which makes his whole case look like him pushing a scummy villager rather than actually catching a wolf.
you are looking for something that you're not gonna find if you think there's going to be any sort of worldbuilding/teambuilding like that. that's not how i play, and if you judge me based on that, you're gonna come up wrong. i'm kind of offended you'd say i haven't made a meaningful attempt to solve the team, "not even a guess" when i've posted reads as detailed as i possibly can on the majority of the players in the game and have speculated multiple times on what i think the teams could be based on PoE. when i say the team or a person doesn't fit, i'm not saying that as a teambuilding thing or not-w/w associations, i mean that i keep ending up with teams of people who i don't really have a strong reason to think are scum. (i.e. lissa and sheep) as of now i'm hitting the pause button on KJ for a bit so I'm not going to be looking for any specific teams there. i've mentioned the situations where i think people might be not-w/w but it's really not my specialty, which is why each time i've said "but eh idk" afterwards. right now i'm at the point where i put out reads as best as i could on every player and it's just time to discuss and theorize and work with people and see which areas i was right in and where i might've been wrong.
and yes, my team has told me that they basically never read you wrong in a million games played together, which is why i eventually gave in and dropped the suspicion i had on you. i still plan on compiling it when i have a bit more time though, because wtf is the point of me being a player in the game with my own perspective if i have a read entirely based on my team saying "nope he's just town"
Want to make it clear that I am absolutely not the one who had issues with taking about a townread in general, just some aspects of the Gemma choice specifically and also the process of the read itself.
fair enough, i was getting what felt like basically the same exact reason from three different people, so sorry if i lumped you in in a way i shouldn't have. but yes i feel like that was the main thing you had against me (excitement about a townread and/or wanting to explain a read in-depth when it's already consensus) so if you think i am minimizing anything then i think we need to talk about it because it feels like i constantly have some sort of disconnect where i don't really understand what you are doing.
also re. lissa my team noted that me saying she could be not-w/w with rhand for the defense is wrong, they say that lissa as a wolf usually defends her partners, and is unlikely to bus. but they said they still feel this stuff isn't particularly AI.
This is kind of a personality thing, but Gemma posts a lot, and seems bubbly, but like, she’s made some offhand comments here and there that are like...downright depressing. She seems like she is stuck with this low level frustration, and it’s the kind of thing that maybe I’m reading into, but makes me sad. On a gut level, I want people to enjoy playing the game, especially people I’ve played with and have built a friendship with.
I can actually kinda see that, she's had a few posts of like "ugh i'm gonna have to solve this game all on my own" or expressed annoyance with the forum system and how hard it is to ISO.
As for the rest of the answers, fair enough. Kinda wanna see what Gemma has to say more than I have anything to say myself. If you're the type who doesn't usually make strong cases, then I can't exactly be like "oh but why didn't you make more of a case for X", nor is there anything i can really say about the nancy progression. it makes sense if you thought about it more and still thought she was scum, i just didn't see it in the thread so i wanted to ask. I guess with the Roz stuff I mostly just couldn't tell how much of it was a "i believe this player is scum" and how much was a "this slot deserves votes", but maybe those are the same thing.
My opinion is that these perspectives line up with Shadow posts I remember from yesterday (the "some people just shouldn't live to Lylo" thing is basically what he said about roz, and about nancy here) and i think the answer about Last makes sense. Let me know you think, Gemma. (and/or anyone else)
Re: minimizing you focused super hard on the excitement part I felt like, when that was something added on later as I talked to you about the read and not the original part of the read.
And my team had an issue with you writing a wall about Gemma period I think but my issue was more with you doing that specifically first. Not because it was a townread, because it was specifically Gemma.
And I just wrote out a bunch of words about what I meant more so than consensus but I read them over and was like “wait I do that” so uh imma need to think on this some.
shadow: Last is in anti spew
sheep: you're wrong, and because you're wrong your thought can't be real
Yes?
(Newcomb has now successfully locked us as never wolves together.)
Yes...
but in your post where you took issue with it, that's not what you said. you said that the reason shadow's thought isn't real is because shadow knows that sheep feels differently, and would base his opinion on sheep.
what you're saying in this post is not that. what you're summarizing/paraphrasing in this post makes sense as a read from sheep.
do you see why its two different things and not what you initially said?
I don't think I am. My read on that was that sheep's thought isn't a real thought, because he should be able to recognize that disagreeing with someone does not make their read fake, and because it ignores the context in which shadow's read was made.
Anyway, the "no scumteam fits" vibes usually mean there's a scum in the townreads (The 100 endgame, hi), and I think it's likely to be Del.
Also his treatment of me is super weird. I think his team is warning him to townread me early because I'm a ***** to push a mislynch on, and Del is trying not to townread me. Because with Newcomb and Voxx on his side, any push on me when I'm town would be a scumclaim from him.
That's a really self-centered view of the game I'm entertaining.
You basically just described my Dels read. I haven't been saying "posts so towny", you're reading into that. If he's a wolf, I love the way he's trying to power play, if he's a villager, I love the way he's being completely transparent. I can love his posts without thinking they're town posts. One of the first things I hated about him was his read on you, it had no nuance and it felt really agenda-y. His KJ read is the same. When he replaced in, it felt like was jumping into power wolf mode and bussing Rhand to send himself deep (he could be with shadow, though). His reads on shadow and Nancy feel like... reading into a lot of stuff from the side instead of coming at it straight. When I look at teams, he fits really well when no one else does. The way my reads are after the work I did last night, I think it's probably Rhand/sheep + 1 of Dels/shadow. I'm at a spot in the game where I'm sifting through my nebulous town reads in search for the third (or trying to find the world where Rhand is town and game is hard), rather than looking at a bunch of scum reads and figuring out which one I want to lynch. It's going to be a case of "who do I think has the most scum markers in spite their towniness" and a bunch of world building and it might be frustrating for you that I don't have clear scum reads but that's how it is right now, sorry.
This is kind of a personality thing, but Gemma posts a lot, and seems bubbly, but like, she’s made some offhand comments here and there that are like...downright depressing. She seems like she is stuck with this low level frustration, and it’s the kind of thing that maybe I’m reading into, but makes me sad. On a gut level, I want people to enjoy playing the game, especially people I’ve played with and have built a friendship with.
I can actually kinda see that, she's had a few posts of like "ugh i'm gonna have to solve this game all on my own" or expressed annoyance with the forum system and how hard it is to ISO.
As for the rest of the answers, fair enough. Kinda wanna see what Gemma has to say more than I have anything to say myself. If you're the type who doesn't usually make strong cases, then I can't exactly be like "oh but why didn't you make more of a case for X", nor is there anything i can really say about the nancy progression. it makes sense if you thought about it more and still thought she was scum, i just didn't see it in the thread so i wanted to ask. I guess with the Roz stuff I mostly just couldn't tell how much of it was a "i believe this player is scum" and how much was a "this slot deserves votes", but maybe those are the same thing.
My opinion is that these perspectives line up with Shadow posts I remember from yesterday (the "some people just shouldn't live to Lylo" thing is basically what he said about roz, and about nancy here) and i think the answer about Last makes sense. Let me know you think, Gemma. (and/or anyone else)
I'm not entirely sure what you're asking for my opinion on, sorry. He's right that I've been dying inside since my computer died on day 1.
So, I'm noting a lot of your 1353 says a lot of me being hedgy and having weak reasoning. That's not really a scumtell for me. I kinda range from hedgy and having weak reasoning to overconfident and having weak reasoning. Thats kinda just... how I play. I'm working on it.
If you look at my previous games (in my sig) you'll see that. I wanna say.... Token Power will be a good recent game to see.
I mean, you're not wrong. I AM hedgy and that can be a scum thing. I'm just... not. in this case.
Actually, my strongest and 'best' read in this game was on... Wheat. I thought my points on Wheat were so good that I shot him.
Actually also kinda regret that since Wheat is one of the people who has played with me enough to maybe back me up on this. lol.
I would like to make a point though that when you say that "the focus on analyzing ones own wagon or lack thereof" is a scumtell. The italicized part is a problem because its just... not true. What happens there is it spotlights that people are scumreading them and specificly that they are not voting you (when perhaps they should be).
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Re: minimizing you focused super hard on the excitement part I felt like, when that was something added on later as I talked to you about the read and not the original part of the read.
And my team had an issue with you writing a wall about Gemma period I think but my issue was more with you doing that specifically first. Not because it was a townread, because it was specifically Gemma.
And I just wrote out a bunch of words about what I meant more so than consensus but I read them over and was like “wait I do that” so uh imma need to think on this some.
My initial response to the town case from Dels was "lolpocketing" "this helps no one" "you knew I was going to be alive today", so I don't think you're at all crazy for having the read you do.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
So, I'm noting a lot of your 1353 says a lot of me being hedgy and having weak reasoning. That's not really a scumtell for me. I kinda range from hedgy and having weak reasoning to overconfident and having weak reasoning. Thats kinda just... how I play. I'm working on it.
If you look at my previous games (in my sig) you'll see that. I wanna say.... Token Power will be a good recent game to see.
I mean, you're not wrong. I AM hedgy and that can be a scum thing. I'm just... not. in this case.
Actually, my strongest and 'best' read in this game was on... Wheat. I thought my points on Wheat were so good that I shot him.
Actually also kinda regret that since Wheat is one of the people who has played with me enough to maybe back me up on this. lol.
I would like to make a point though that when you say that "the focus on analyzing ones own wagon or lack thereof" is a scumtell. The italicized part is a problem because its just... not true. What happens there is it spotlights that people are scumreading them and specificly that they are not voting you (when perhaps they should be).
Um, thank you for the detailed response >_> But I think the vig claim is basically all you'd need to say for me to retract my points
Unvote: Killjoy
So... that's that. Yes, I didn't think of it at all at first until Gemma and Shadow blatantly talked about last night, at which point I was already going back to look at KJ stuff and I was like "oh yeah", and my team looked at it and basically said the same thing.
Also just to respond anyway, sorry, same thing I said to Vaimes, ultimately the way I work is I look for posts that I don't think scum can fake, and I PoE down the rest. If someone is posting reads that aren't very committed, or seem to lack depth or explanation, they are generally gonna fall into my potential scum pile, and my case on them is rarely gonna be super exciting besides a lot of "well these reads seem week"
Anyway if no one counterclaims you (and I'm doubting anyone will) I don't, uh, need to look into your past games for it, but thank you
In retrospect you're not wrong that its a good place to look, at people who are shading you without ever putting their money where their mouth is, but it's also something that I see scum do a lot 'cause it gives them an easy way to show "genuine" distrust, without having to really form a read based on the person's overall body of work
So, I'm noting a lot of your 1353 says a lot of me being hedgy and having weak reasoning. That's not really a scumtell for me. I kinda range from hedgy and having weak reasoning to overconfident and having weak reasoning. Thats kinda just... how I play. I'm working on it.
If you look at my previous games (in my sig) you'll see that. I wanna say.... Token Power will be a good recent game to see.
I mean, you're not wrong. I AM hedgy and that can be a scum thing. I'm just... not. in this case.
Actually, my strongest and 'best' read in this game was on... Wheat. I thought my points on Wheat were so good that I shot him.
Actually also kinda regret that since Wheat is one of the people who has played with me enough to maybe back me up on this. lol.
I would like to make a point though that when you say that "the focus on analyzing ones own wagon or lack thereof" is a scumtell. The italicized part is a problem because its just... not true. What happens there is it spotlights that people are scumreading them and specificly that they are not voting you (when perhaps they should be).
Oh cool you outed now I can stop being coy about it. I have to say I was super super titled by that shot, I've been whining about it so much in team chat being a generally terrible person to be around. You killed a strong town read of mine and outed yourself at the same time. Day 1 as a vig, you either holster or shoot the counter wagon. /Screaming
Oh and I @'d you in an earlier post but the thing about WG from my team was a half-joke and no I didn't agree with it at all, I thought Wheat was town.
Heh, you probably didn’t have to claim, but I guess you’d basically done it already.
*shrug*
It does create this fun game where the scum need to figure out if blocking me since I'm the vig is better for them than not blocking me because its me and I'll probably hit town anyway.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Heh, you probably didn’t have to claim, but I guess you’d basically done it already.
*shrug*
It does create this fun game where the scum need to figure out if blocking me since I'm the vig is better for them than not blocking me because its me and I'll probably hit town anyway.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Or shoot a lurker. Anyway I think Dels should have picked up on KJ being vig and the fact that he didn't and made a big push on him is a little disturbing.
@gemma: i was mostly asking you your opinion on shadow's other responses, not the stuff he said about you. since you're the one who wanted to look into his progressions/reasoning for votes. personally i kinda think all his answers are fine so i'm comfortable sticking with my townread for now (even after the KJ claim), it's not as strong as before, but I don't really... see any problem with shadow's answers. seems like you don't either?
@lissa: well i guess there's a difference between the "i was excited to" and just... the fact that i did at all, but, yeah, i equated them since it's basically all the same issue to me. i still have nothing else to say about that. i think we've already proven that gemma wasn't even super-concensus, but even if she was the post probably would've been the same. i find it weird that your team has an issue with this because i was just in a game with ara where i'd come in and post a ton of paragraphs about why someone was town and she'd be like "uhhhhhh well we already thought they were town but ok" but even then it does feel like that's the only thing you've really had an issue with with me. i know we've never actually played a game together other than mashes, but it's just really weird to be suspected for something that... like, is just totally normal for me, and it's weird that you don't seem to have reasons beyond that. but i know you've said you're waiting till you have more time to post so i'm not jumping to any conclusions.
@gemma re. sheep: i feel like you did imply something else originally, but anyway, if your point is that sheep shouldn't have thought shadow's thought is fake just because it's wrong... idk. i still don't feel that really... is scummy. >_> sorry, i feel this hasn't been a productive line of inquiry. it's just not a post of sheep's that pings me, sorry.
@gemma re. your post on me, i'm not sure there's anything i can really defend there, except that i'm not sure why you'd say the nancy read is "coming at it from the side" when you seem to... agree with most of the points? again i think this may be a playstyle thing because your issue with my shadow case and maybe the nancy case is you feel like i'm only pointing out certain things, and with shadow i didn't look at like, his progressions and stuff as a whole? and with nancy i can identify reasons for her to be town, and my scum reasons is just "well she hasn't done that much hunting so maybe" and i think it's the same sort of playstyle thing I'm running into with vaimes, which is that I'm mostly looking for reasons to townread people, I'm not necessarily looking at... their overall body of work? in the same way that many players would when they scumhunt? (or rather, townhunt) I only bring up the points that I feel are unique to me and my perspective
Rhand/Del/sheep? Without checking to see if that works. idfk on Nancy but people are dancing around a ~reason~ she's town, so whatever.
The [reason] thing is about the redacted ongoing reference, where she said Lissa shouldn't scum read her because she was only saying the same thing a villager said in a game she was in.
At this point I basically agree that Rhand is likely to be scum, but there's really nothing else to say there because he hasn't posted yet. I agree on Sheep too but I would definitely lynch Rhand first because I'm much less sure on Sheep. I just don't think it's Nancy. And I have no interest in lynching Shadow today. My gut says that if it's Rhand/Sheep then the third is Lissa. It's not Gemma and unless my team doesn't come back with a "lock clear", it's not Vaimes. Pretty sure I've already said exactly all of this, but yeah, that's where I'm at.
Vote: Rhand
Does anyone have any thoughts on the Rhand thoughts I posted on the weekend? That basically summed up most of my thoughts there. The main things being that I don't feel his progression on the Gemma/Regfan/Shadow scumteam was as natural/genuinely paranoid as LW's, and that his second half of day felt kind of lacking in progressions.
Or shoot a lurker. Anyway I think Dels should have picked up on KJ being vig and the fact that he didn't and made a big push on him is a little disturbing.
also i basically never notice PR stuff. i'm mostly a mountainous player these days and i pretty much don't like playing with roles or anything role-related. i did notice KJ's posts but it didn't register to me as "vig claim", i basically just thought he was... commenting on wheat's death, which made sense since he was suspecting wheat the most. once you guys started talking about it, and due to [?reasons?], i basically figured that was probably it and that i was being dumb.
Heh.
Tempted to just call you not w/w for alone.
Um, explain how sheep's post makes sense in any other way than "Last can't be in anti spew mode, I'm strongly town reading him / he is strongly town read", please?
rhand/gemma
rhand/sheep
rhand/nancy
are the ones that don’t have anything majorly weird at first glance? that’s not even true, rhand had gemma as scum for the same reasons as LW and I think he explained the gemma read MORE than he explained the reg/shadow reads, he said they were in association with her.
so basically the most obvious team for rhand scum would be something like rhand/sheep/nancy, which would include sheep/nancy together which also doesn’t feel right.
sorry i’m pretty useless at this. i don’t really think the “weird” pairings are ruled out anyway. lissa has defended rhand but did rhand talk much about lissa? a defense can be w/w though i tend to think scum won’t blatantly defend their buddies like that. and any of the others can be distancing. so… ultimately i’ve got nothing. hope this helps lol.
I read sheep's reaction to you in the same way as shadow/your team, yeah. Overenthusiastic to call someone town for weak reasons. (Stop calling it a reaction test, it wasn't a reaction test.)
i have no idea what you mean. ...did sheep clarify why he had that read?
also the key is the "because". and also that sheep didn't just say "last can't be in anti spew mode", he said "i don't see how you can have this read"
your post about it implied you think that the reason shadow can't have that read is because he knows sheep townreads him, and that that's wrong because shadow wouldn't care what sheep thinks. i'm saying i don't think sheep was saying the read doesn't make sense because of that, they were two seperate thoughts. am i making sense?
i think you may be vastly overestimating how much my team followed this game on day 1. for [reasons]. i wouldn’t really read too much into if reg’s views reflected the views of the team or how mine relate to his. my team wanted me to say this as well, though i didn’t feel it was relevant, but since you’ve brought it up.
also if i feel stuck in the past it could be because i had to catch up on an entire day i missed? and i think you have some wrong meta if you’d associate my town game with a “constant chase”, i can elaborate on this if it’s a real concern for you but otherwise i’d rather not.
also the AtE stuff was a semi-joke in response to you saying i was a logical player. had nothing to do with you saying you didn’t townread me.
sorry if any of this is unnecessary, it's just in my nature to clear up any misconceptions about me, just in case.
shadow: Last is in anti spew
sheep: you're wrong, and because you're wrong your thought can't be real
Yes?
(Newcomb has now successfully locked us as never wolves together.)
I think that's everything, so I'll be back tonight.
But basically at this point (my god we are only barely 1/3rd through the day) my reads list from earlier has become... a lot more of a sort of jumble. I can't give a reads list any more at this point, but where I'm at is that I still feel like KJ's posts are bad but that he may be town, and if he's town, and if Vaimes is town (which I admit seems likely and if not, it's what I have to go with right now) then Rhand drops, Lissa stays a ??? and my gut says scum even if there's no strong reason for it, but I'm not gonna be impatient, I have the entire day to evaluate that. And then w/ Sheep I have to admit my team may be right that sheep is just scum, but I still don't have any real reason to think that besides just PoE, and the last thing I want to do is mislynch Sheep again for PoE reasons. Still assuming Nancy is town, and still think Shadow is town but have doubts. No doubts on Gemma.
Yes...
but in your post where you took issue with it, that's not what you said. you said that the reason shadow's thought isn't real is because shadow knows that sheep feels differently, and would base his opinion on sheep.
what you're saying in this post is not that. what you're summarizing/paraphrasing in this post makes sense as a read from sheep.
do you see why its two different things and not what you initially said?
He's sliding down my reads pretty quickly. I don't think he has meaningfully tried to solve for the alignment of a single player in this game, or at least not since he became everyone's first townread. He's been holding you at arms' length and talking about how null you are. Also I think he may have TMI'd he knows I'm town when he said you were trying to pocket me and him. I don't really like his "Dels' reaction to Gemma's redcheck was super towny," it was definitely an expected reaction and even one I had, as much as I would have liked for a PR to catch scum!Del.
I don't have a read on Nancy because she hasn't been here. I thought ~some of her posts were towny, in a non-self-aware kind of way, but the read has gotten super stale.
What even is your read on Del? I swear it's like every new post from you says "I love Del he's so towny" or "Still think Del could be mafia" and I can't follow it.
I'm trying not to confbias my initial scumread, but it really just seems like he's putting on a town show rather than just being town. And unless I missed it (which is possible because he has too many wallposts), he hasn't made a meaningful attempt to solve for who can be scum with Killjoy, not even a guess. It's all "this person isn't a townread but they don't really fit." Which makes his whole case look like him pushing a scummy villager rather than actually catching a wolf.
Also his treatment of me is super weird. I think his team is warning him to townread me early because I'm a ***** to push a mislynch on, and Del is trying not to townread me. Because with Newcomb and Voxx on his side, any push on me when I'm town would be a scumclaim from him.
That's a really self-centered view of the game I'm entertaining.
Want to make it clear that I am absolutely not the one who had issues with taking about a townread in general, just some aspects of the Gemma choice specifically and also the process of the read itself.
There isn’t really much to say about the rest of this.
Wtf is this question?
I mean my read is mostly EoD related.
But I didn’t actually have that strong of like, a townread on shadow before, or much of any read at all before today I just defend against things I think are bad and don’t really like lynching high volume people d1 generally and have given up correcting people who assume more than that shrug
Shadow it’s a thing I developed from my impression of you in this game which obviously does have some flaws but I think I can get a fairly okay baseline picture from it generally?
Also Dels keeps kinda minimizing the original portion of my point/read. Think it’s wolfy though kinda concerned I just find it annoying?
Also frankly it kinda is posting for the sake of posting? I didn’t wanna just leave and not post for three days for a variety of reasons but it’s hard to want to do anything substantial on a phone when I’ll be back on a computer so soon.
As far as actual cases, I post 100% from mobile, so if I’m going to make a case, it’s probably LyLo, and I’m probably very sure (and probably wrong). I’ll give reasoning, I’ll break down posts and push people, but making a case is a lot of work. There were a couple of moments that I actually thought “holy crap, maybe Last is really scum,” (like when I suggested he might be intentionally not spewing everywhere) but when it comes down to it, I mostly just thought he looked like himself and while I’ve not seen his scum game, from what I’ve heard, I would be very surprised if it was that comparable. This is kind of a personality thing, but Gemma posts a lot, and seems bubbly, but like, she’s made some offhand comments here and there that are like...downright depressing. She seems like she is stuck with this low level frustration, and it’s the kind of thing that maybe I’m reading into, but makes me sad. On a gut level, I want people to enjoy playing the game, especially people I’ve played with and have built a friendship with.
you are looking for something that you're not gonna find if you think there's going to be any sort of worldbuilding/teambuilding like that. that's not how i play, and if you judge me based on that, you're gonna come up wrong. i'm kind of offended you'd say i haven't made a meaningful attempt to solve the team, "not even a guess" when i've posted reads as detailed as i possibly can on the majority of the players in the game and have speculated multiple times on what i think the teams could be based on PoE. when i say the team or a person doesn't fit, i'm not saying that as a teambuilding thing or not-w/w associations, i mean that i keep ending up with teams of people who i don't really have a strong reason to think are scum. (i.e. lissa and sheep) as of now i'm hitting the pause button on KJ for a bit so I'm not going to be looking for any specific teams there. i've mentioned the situations where i think people might be not-w/w but it's really not my specialty, which is why each time i've said "but eh idk" afterwards. right now i'm at the point where i put out reads as best as i could on every player and it's just time to discuss and theorize and work with people and see which areas i was right in and where i might've been wrong.
and yes, my team has told me that they basically never read you wrong in a million games played together, which is why i eventually gave in and dropped the suspicion i had on you. i still plan on compiling it when i have a bit more time though, because wtf is the point of me being a player in the game with my own perspective if i have a read entirely based on my team saying "nope he's just town"
fair enough, i was getting what felt like basically the same exact reason from three different people, so sorry if i lumped you in in a way i shouldn't have. but yes i feel like that was the main thing you had against me (excitement about a townread and/or wanting to explain a read in-depth when it's already consensus) so if you think i am minimizing anything then i think we need to talk about it because it feels like i constantly have some sort of disconnect where i don't really understand what you are doing.
I can actually kinda see that, she's had a few posts of like "ugh i'm gonna have to solve this game all on my own" or expressed annoyance with the forum system and how hard it is to ISO.
As for the rest of the answers, fair enough. Kinda wanna see what Gemma has to say more than I have anything to say myself. If you're the type who doesn't usually make strong cases, then I can't exactly be like "oh but why didn't you make more of a case for X", nor is there anything i can really say about the nancy progression. it makes sense if you thought about it more and still thought she was scum, i just didn't see it in the thread so i wanted to ask. I guess with the Roz stuff I mostly just couldn't tell how much of it was a "i believe this player is scum" and how much was a "this slot deserves votes", but maybe those are the same thing.
My opinion is that these perspectives line up with Shadow posts I remember from yesterday (the "some people just shouldn't live to Lylo" thing is basically what he said about roz, and about nancy here) and i think the answer about Last makes sense. Let me know you think, Gemma. (and/or anyone else)
And my team had an issue with you writing a wall about Gemma period I think but my issue was more with you doing that specifically first. Not because it was a townread, because it was specifically Gemma.
And I just wrote out a bunch of words about what I meant more so than consensus but I read them over and was like “wait I do that” so uh imma need to think on this some.
Dels.
So, I'm noting a lot of your 1353 says a lot of me being hedgy and having weak reasoning. That's not really a scumtell for me. I kinda range from hedgy and having weak reasoning to overconfident and having weak reasoning. Thats kinda just... how I play. I'm working on it.
If you look at my previous games (in my sig) you'll see that. I wanna say.... Token Power will be a good recent game to see.
I mean, you're not wrong. I AM hedgy and that can be a scum thing. I'm just... not. in this case.
Actually, my strongest and 'best' read in this game was on... Wheat. I thought my points on Wheat were so good that I shot him.
Actually also kinda regret that since Wheat is one of the people who has played with me enough to maybe back me up on this. lol.
I would like to make a point though that when you say that "the focus on analyzing ones own wagon or lack thereof" is a scumtell. The italicized part is a problem because its just... not true. What happens there is it spotlights that people are scumreading them and specificly that they are not voting you (when perhaps they should be).
Vaimes/Gemma/KJ town, burn the rest.
“That’s too many scum reads.”
shadow
Nancy
Rhand
sheep
Del
The Leftovers.
Um, thank you for the detailed response >_> But I think the vig claim is basically all you'd need to say for me to retract my points
Unvote: Killjoy
So... that's that. Yes, I didn't think of it at all at first until Gemma and Shadow blatantly talked about last night, at which point I was already going back to look at KJ stuff and I was like "oh yeah", and my team looked at it and basically said the same thing.
Also just to respond anyway, sorry, same thing I said to Vaimes, ultimately the way I work is I look for posts that I don't think scum can fake, and I PoE down the rest. If someone is posting reads that aren't very committed, or seem to lack depth or explanation, they are generally gonna fall into my potential scum pile, and my case on them is rarely gonna be super exciting besides a lot of "well these reads seem week"
Anyway if no one counterclaims you (and I'm doubting anyone will) I don't, uh, need to look into your past games for it, but thank you
In retrospect you're not wrong that its a good place to look, at people who are shading you without ever putting their money where their mouth is, but it's also something that I see scum do a lot 'cause it gives them an easy way to show "genuine" distrust, without having to really form a read based on the person's overall body of work
It does create this fun game where the scum need to figure out if blocking me since I'm the vig is better for them than not blocking me because its me and I'll probably hit town anyway.
Is this all you have to say, Shadow?
Sorry Gemma. He was a strong scum read of mine.
Rhand - 4 (Killjoy, Vaimes, Wheat_Grinder, shadowlancerx)
roz_the_eevee - 3 (Gemma, sheepsaysmeep, Lissa)
Lissa - 1 (roz_the_eevee)
Lastwhisper - 1 (Dels_8)
shadowlancerx - 1 (Lastwhisper)
Dels_8 - 1 (Rhand)
Not Voting - 1 (Nancy Drew 39)
-
Meh.
Unvote, vote Rhand
Rhand/Del/sheep? Without checking to see if that works. idfk on Nancy but people are dancing around a ~reason~ she's town, so whatever.
Water under the bridge, just take it for the future. Don't shoot scum reads day 1, it just outs you to the scum team.
@lissa: well i guess there's a difference between the "i was excited to" and just... the fact that i did at all, but, yeah, i equated them since it's basically all the same issue to me. i still have nothing else to say about that. i think we've already proven that gemma wasn't even super-concensus, but even if she was the post probably would've been the same. i find it weird that your team has an issue with this because i was just in a game with ara where i'd come in and post a ton of paragraphs about why someone was town and she'd be like "uhhhhhh well we already thought they were town but ok" but even then it does feel like that's the only thing you've really had an issue with with me. i know we've never actually played a game together other than mashes, but it's just really weird to be suspected for something that... like, is just totally normal for me, and it's weird that you don't seem to have reasons beyond that. but i know you've said you're waiting till you have more time to post so i'm not jumping to any conclusions.
@gemma re. sheep: i feel like you did imply something else originally, but anyway, if your point is that sheep shouldn't have thought shadow's thought is fake just because it's wrong... idk. i still don't feel that really... is scummy. >_> sorry, i feel this hasn't been a productive line of inquiry. it's just not a post of sheep's that pings me, sorry.
@gemma re. your post on me, i'm not sure there's anything i can really defend there, except that i'm not sure why you'd say the nancy read is "coming at it from the side" when you seem to... agree with most of the points? again i think this may be a playstyle thing because your issue with my shadow case and maybe the nancy case is you feel like i'm only pointing out certain things, and with shadow i didn't look at like, his progressions and stuff as a whole? and with nancy i can identify reasons for her to be town, and my scum reasons is just "well she hasn't done that much hunting so maybe" and i think it's the same sort of playstyle thing I'm running into with vaimes, which is that I'm mostly looking for reasons to townread people, I'm not necessarily looking at... their overall body of work? in the same way that many players would when they scumhunt? (or rather, townhunt) I only bring up the points that I feel are unique to me and my perspective
uhhhhhh
have you really missed that entire line of discussion?
it's because he, like, defends himself against me and tries to explain why the things i'm scumreading him for are townie...
but then he claims vig
so like... it... wasn't needed. lol
I'll find it.
Vote: Rhand
Does anyone have any thoughts on the Rhand thoughts I posted on the weekend? That basically summed up most of my thoughts there. The main things being that I don't feel his progression on the Gemma/Regfan/Shadow scumteam was as natural/genuinely paranoid as LW's, and that his second half of day felt kind of lacking in progressions.
also i basically never notice PR stuff. i'm mostly a mountainous player these days and i pretty much don't like playing with roles or anything role-related. i did notice KJ's posts but it didn't register to me as "vig claim", i basically just thought he was... commenting on wheat's death, which made sense since he was suspecting wheat the most. once you guys started talking about it, and due to [?reasons?], i basically figured that was probably it and that i was being dumb.