First off, I wanna link 1153 for reference. (My thoughts on Shadow yesterday – they still hold up) The tl;dr of that is that I liked his aggressiveness, his insistence against Roz, his treatment of Gemma, and his wariness of Lastwhisper. By reading more, it’s actually helped me reinforce this view, and I see how the 6 pages I read fit into the whole 26.
For Shadow, I want to primarily examine how he treated the people he was suspicious of, and show why they are real progressions.
Lastwhisper:
So, let’s begin with 119, where Shadow starts to sort of shade LW. Rhand and someone else both said “I’m agreeing with LW a lot, and I never do!” (paraphrased) and Shadow was immediately put off by these mindmeld reads. And then in 129, Shadow basically calls LW oblivious. The reason I point these out is because these don’t read to me as a scum pushing on a townie – it reads like Shadow is genuinely annoyed by (or, to be a bit harsher, looks down upon) LW and has real frustration about the way the game is treating him. 406 shows consistency with this PoV, he asks Vaimes (again) how anyone could be mindmelding with LW. And why I don’t think this is scummy, is I don’t think scum will just outwardly express frustration that a townie is being townread! It doesn’t feel like an agenda to break down townreads on LW, that’d just be too obvious a play and I really doubt that’s what Shadow is doing.
Posts 527 and 528 are really funny, he quickly throws out some more worry about LW, and then immediately takes it back. I have no real point here. But I think it’s a towny thought process that shows that LW is still on his mind, and that he’s actually thinking about it, not just shading for no reason. 652 is another post that shows he is actually thinking about LW: When Wheat posts a scumread on LW, Shadow actually points out a problem in Wheat’s case! He doesn’t use it as an opportunity to push LW more, which I think he would be happy to do if he was scum. (And could get away with) I think what we can see is that Shadow is moreso bothered by his, uh, Last’s process/thoughts, and not that he is actually solidly scumreading him.
715 is when he finally votes LW, and I think the reason why is towny. I think town are way more likely than wolves to have these weird type of “something just feels off” reads (see: Shadow’s Nancy read), and I think it lines up perfectly with how he’s been viewing LW the whole time. I have 719 noted as where LW says this vote makes Shadow scum because Shadow should know better (because apparently Shadow knows Last’s town meta), but I think it is the opposite: That is why he wouldn’t do it as scum! Scum don’t just push people for “being different” when they know the person is in fact being exactly the same because they are town. (Or if they do, they make sure they can justify it by the person actually being different, and I get the feeling that LW really really wasn't)
Shadow unvotes in 747 and basically doesn’t continue pushing it. Again, no agenda. What kind of wolf play is it to finally vote Last, and then just… back off right away? Unless you think Shadow is such a cowardly wolf to, like, go for it and then back off the instant he gets any pushback? And, to quote, “If he’s town, this play is inexcusable, arrogant, and frankly insulting.” which is perfectly in line with how Shadow has felt about Last all game. 919 shows that he continues to stay annoyed at LW throughout the rest of the day.
Essentially, I feel like, if Shadow is a wolf, he’d actually, like, hard push LW or try to make a case or something – If he’s a wolf, he’s an aggressive one (see: his push on Roz), but he’s not doing that here, which makes me think there’s no agenda, just frustration and paranoia. The consistent thing throughout the entire day is that he (sorry) just really doesn’t like LW as a player. I picked up on a bit of this in my post yesterday, because I only saw the EoD where he just kept showing passive aggressive wariness of LW, and upon reading the thread, it all makes perfect sense.
Nancy:
His Nancy read is another one that I love. 473. I want to quote it here because I think everyone should read it:
Nancy is like...focusing incorrectly. She doesn’t seem to have a feel for the heartbeat of the game at all. I know that’s not inherently a scum only trait, but it certainly feels like she doesn’t know how to insert herself into the game.
This, even more than the vote on Lastwhisper, is what feels like an authentic townie perspective to me. This type of read has a lot of depth to it, and I think townies makes this kind of read way more often, and scum struggle to fake them believably. This shows that Shadow actually has a read on the game – he is posting a lot in the thread and keeping up – and he is using it for something. And the read fits – I can definitely see where he is coming from. (And I even sort of agree with this perspective, I’ve been rethinking Nancy a bit between start of day and now. But I’ll talk about that in my Nancy post.)
I have continued pushing on Nancy noted down for 547, but I’m not sure what point I wanted to make about that post, so I’ll just leave it here, idk.
The post I actually love is 555, because this helps form the complete puzzle along with Shadow’s Last progression. Look at how damn annoyed he is that Gemma actually posts a reason to townread Nancy. He hates it. He grumbles. He moans like a wildebeast. Okay, I’m exaggerating. But my point is: when I see him get annoyed like this, it doesn’t feel like he’s pushing any sort of agenda. It feels like he hates Nancy’s posts the same way he hates Last’s, and he is truly annoyed at the possibility they might just be town. I don’t think scum shows this sort of annoyance that people aren’t accepting their pushes. Not outwardly.
Roz:
I already talked about his Roz push yesterday, but I think now I see the pattern makes sense. Shadow gets really annoyed when people don’t go for the people he is pushing. 747 is his vote post where he just… clearly hates Roz and wants her dead. There’s more posts of him pushing her. The biggest one that I liked yesterday was 1002. There’s others, but I think I highlighted these in yesterday’s post and I think we all saw those, so I won’t repeat them. But again, I think his aggressiveness here (and especially compared to how he handled Last and Nancy) is a good thing.
The fact that he handles these three pushes in different ways depending on his level of confidence, but that we can see the same underlying threads connecting them and his mindset, is what what makes me think he is town. Ultimately, like I said yesterday, the frustration and stubbornness in all three cases feels real to me, not an agenda. And if it was an agenda, he’d cover it up more.
Some other posts I liked from Shadow:
- Early shade on Sheep in 49 and 51 for being hedgey. Honestly, sheep is such an easy mislynch for scum that I don’t think scum will usually start shading him off the bat, because they can get in trouble for it when sheep flips town. Either way it feels like a good callout. (If sheep is w I guess this can be distancing but whatever)
- 698 is a good point against Rhand which also lines up with how I’m seeing Rhand’s posts. (though I’m not convinced Rhand has to be scum)
Ultimately, I have to agree with Lissa that I really don’t get where most of the Shadow suspicion is even coming from. Like I remember seeing people say that he wasn’t doing enough, or something? When he’s been in the thread it feels more than almost anyone and has made a lot of good reads.
Beyond that, I just generally like his attitude for… sort-of similar reasons to why I like Gemma’s. Shadow has a lot of “I’m so excited to be playing” posts and, quite frankly, yes they are awkward, but I really don’t think his strategy as scum would be to just… fake it and try to convince everyone how excited he is? That doesn’t even seem like the kind of scum player he is, to me. (Though I’ve never seen his scum game)
I wanna talk about Shadow/Gemma interactions seperately, so that'll be another post.
I'm in a weird spot with Lissa, I kinda think she's town but I would really like to hear where she is at with Dels/KJ/shadow/Rhand before I take that read too far. Her take on shadow especially is weird because she resisted that wagon a ton without ever seeming to have much of an actual read on shadow. She is also a bit of a priority for me because she affects a lot of my worlds.
Hi Lissa an awkward amount of that was actually directed at you despite being written in the third person...
especially 'cause i wasn't sure if i'd even be able to make a 4th post
will continue soon
and no that wasn't pre-written, though i had a pretty good idea what i wanted to say (and still do for the rest of my bullet points)
i don't have much of a vaimes read so don't expect much, i just generally don't think any of his posts are worth townreading? i'm a PoE player so the explanations for the bottom of my lists tend to be pretty underwhelming. "i just don't townread them" though I do think KJ's catchup readslist was really bad and I wanna call that out
Okay, I wanted to try and make a case for why Gemma/Shadow are v/v based on interactions, and definitely not w/w, but I don’t have much actual evidence. (This post turns out to be more rambly than an actual case, so just go with it) My notes basically just point to the entirety of page 1, but I think everyone has read that, and many said it looked like buddying, and I guess all I can say is I totally disagree. Regfan had some paranoia that if they were w/w, they’d have to do it like that, and I get it since he knows both of them, but, meh, the whole of page 1 just reads very natural to me. The way they sort of joke around with each other, Shadow saying he’d be sad if she rolled w without him (note that later he explains they’ve only ever been w/w together, so this makes sense), and the way Shadow follows her onto Reg.
I guess if I had to point to any evidence that there’s actual townie thinking going on from Shadow, I would say 29. It looks good to me because he’s basically saying, “I know I’m joking around and having fun with Gemma, but actually I do think she might be town”. It shows that he’s actual thinking about if her silly posts are good, not just putting on some sort of act or buddying. (135 is where he directly explains the townread.)
I also think he has a pretty wide focus throughout the day, especially the early pages. He doesn’t really, like, rely on the Gemma thing, he branches out and reads and interacts with all the other players. I think if he was scum, it’s more likely he’d sort of rely on the Gemma interactions to keep him afloat and/or get him townread, but he doesn’t.
(And if I’m allowed to talk about myself, it’s absolutely ludicrous to think they are w/w/w with Reg. Like, insane. This is why I thought LW was town, and something I wanna talk about in regards to Rhand because he sheeped that same team)
Some other posts I have that I think show a real progression / real solving from Shadow irt Gemma:
142 I like because it, again, shows he has an actual read and is thinking about if she could be scum, and that he genuinely does think her posting makes her town.
218 The second section where he agrees with Gemma’s case on Rhand and thinks Rhand looks bad for it. This shows that his townread on Gemma is actually affecting how he perceives others – i.e. he’s not just hiding behind it.
162 Doesn’t mean much, but again shows consistency with Gemma at the top and Rhand at the bottom. Also noticing that Sheep and Last are at the top, which is good – it shows that he didn’t opportunistically push on Sheep after page 1 where he called him hedgey – again, I think as scum it’d have been easy for him to have Sheep as a scumread here. And it shows that he doesn’t really think Last is overtly scummy, just… annoying.
For Gemma, examples of her authentically solving Shadow are 403, 932, 962, 988, 994, 1003, 1004. She’s clearly very split and having an actual debate between brain and gut, and weighing all the evidence. There’s also a post I can’t find right now where Gemma said that Shadow’s “Wow, your cases are so good, I wish I could be as good as you” (paraphrased) isn’t how wolf!Shadow would treat her, because he’d want to outplay her, and even though I don’t know Shadow at all, I’m trusting Gemma’s read on that one. (And I think it’s another example showing she is really trying to solve him)
So, to Gemma and Shadow, and everyone:
I guess what I wanted to say, to tie together my townreads on both of you, is that I think you are both just town. I basically came in and saw both of you strongly pushing things near EoD, and saw Gemma going crazy over wondering about Shadow, and all I wanted was to scream was “Come on guys, you are both just obviously town!” I think it’s maybe easier to get a sort of “outsider” view as a replacement, maybe it’s not what I’d be thinking if I was in the game from the start, but I think as more of an observer, it’s a lot easier to look at a game and sort of just realize where the villagers are going crazy because they’ve been in the game for 2 weeks, and to take a more straightforward PoV and realize the simple things that people in the game might be missing.
And essentially, even though I don’t know you, Gemma, I am trusting your gut, even if you aren’t. And I think you should trust your gut too, because Shadow really seems like town to me, for these behaviour reasons you have, and for all the reasons I outlined last night.
And what I want to do, and how I’m viewing the game, is through the lens of forming a sort of “town core” there, and solving the other 6. And I hope, Gemma, you are not the paranoid type to think that I’m, like, a wolf with Shadow trying to pocket you or something (though uh from reading this thread, you may be, but I hope not), and Shadow, I know you didn’t trust Reg, and that Reg was suspicious of you, so I hope we can talk about that and work together.
Okay, so my thoughts on Nancy are actually kinda split. I have some reasons to believe she is town, but I actually don’t think it’s worth clearing over for sure. I’m gonna split this post into two sections.
Reasons for Nancy to be town:
Part 1: Her reactions to suspicion on her
I think a lot of Nancy’s early interactions (mainly with Gemma) indicated that she was sort of… confused, and annoyed with Gemma. Gemma basically keeps prodding at Nancy and making weird jokes, and Nancy just sort of… doesn’t get it. I think if Nancy was scum, it’s likely she would be more defensive or tense up or get rigid in some way, and she doesn’t really. Examples of this are 208, where Gemma jokes that Nancy is on her scumteam, and Nancy just has no idea what Gemma is doing, doesn’t even see it as an accusation. In 355, Lissa has basically said that Nancy is town for being, well, totally oblivious, and Nancy… proves her right by still having no clue what Lissa is saying. And 273, where she gets questioned about Gemma’s scumread on her, and she just has no clue what is going on, because she seems to think Gemma has a townread on her.
Her annoyance at Gemma comes through in 214 and 216. She is already annoyed that Gemma calls herself a “confirmed town”, even though it’s just, like, Gemma putting herself in her own readslist, which is such a standard thing to do, and then she further explains to Reg, so clearly it really bothers her. Like with Shadow, I think this is genuine annoyance, and combined with her general cluelessness, I don’t think it’s her doing some sort of defensive Omgus-y type thing. (Also note here how she compares Gemma to Sheep, I like anything that shows a player has an overall view of the game and is making links like that, makes me feel their reads are more real because they are on their mind even when they are not specifically talking about them.)
Like I said, I expect Nancy as scum to get more defensive when she is accused, and I think her posts show that she was okay with being suspected, and willing to discuss it and stay open-minded. 270 is a great example, showing that she is actually evaluating the suspicion on her, and comparing people’s reads to try to find scum. (And again, she relates it to sheep, which makes me feel like a) she is thinking about sheep and b) she is okay accept sheep’s meta situation with her) And then 271 with another really silly moment of total cluelessness. Oh, Lissa’s not scumreading me, she just called my post wolfy! Not only does it still show how she’s actually thinking about the suspicion on her (not just snap reacting to it), but again I don’t think as wolf she fakes this sort of naiveté.
And then there’s her reaction to Lissa’s continued pushing, where she basically gets really aggressive against Lissa. In 354, she calls Lissa’s push lazy and terribad! Like I said, I think scum with Nancy’s experience level and personality would be more likely to sort of tense up and get defensive, but she actually explores Lissa’s push for a while and only later settles in to this. But the followup is what is really important: She comes around to a townread on Lissa! She ultimately gives Lissa the townread in 559, but she doesn’t even say it to Lissa herself, she’s actually speaking with Roz and defending Lissa. It doesn’t feel like she’s trying to appease Lissa or get Lissa off her case with this, as a result. She also has a sort of confidence here that I like, where she basically says she could’ve scumread Lissa correctly if she was scum. And 561 in particular, she really defends her Lissa read and even says “I challenge you to review my interactions with her and show me how her reactions were fake”. I don’t think a scum Nancy can fake this level of confidence, the progression on Lissa makes total sense to me.
Part 2: The Redacted
Okay, so this is the main thing. Part 1 is stuff that makes me townread her, but, y’know, whatever.
But part 2.
I guess I don’t really wanna dwell on this much because it’s kind of… not cool. But it’s in the game so I have to say it.
Nancy basically defended herself by saying that a post she made was definitely townie, because someone else in an ongoing game made a similar post, and she thinks they are town. Or rather, because they make posts like that all the time as town. She wondered if it was okay to post about it and even though she didn’t receive confirmation, she basically did it anyway. (333) No, I haven’t made any attempt to see what she’s talking about. But that’s just insane, and I have to assume she is actually town, because only townies come up with crazy nonsensical ***** like this. She doubles down on it in 349 with a level of insistence that I believe she can only have because she actually somehow believes this proves her town (or at least, proves the post wasn’t scummy), not because it’s some weird scum strategy she’s trying to do.
Anyway, these posts show more of her Lissa progression, so hey, there’s that too.
Nancy having a massive overreaction to a push on her, citing some crazy and not-quite-legal stuff, and then ultimately calming down and calling Lissa town… fits with what I expect from her town game.
Part 3: Sheep
This is a mini-point, but I think the interactions between Nancy and Sheep are pretty telling, for both of them. Sheep came in basically saying he knows Nancy and her meta because of experience. Nancy townreads sheep pretty quickly. So does, well, everyone else. Anyway, sheep questions Nancy’s townread of him in 428 and I like Nancy’s reactions, she’s just kinda like “yeah it was too strong”, I think it’s good self-awareness and not self-conscious. Worth noting that sheep does eventually give Nancy the townread in 645. Not really enough for me to trust Nancy on it’s own, but in combination with other stuff, it helps.
Reasons for Nancy to be scum:
I actually don’t have anything new to add here, other people have covered this. The reason for Nancy to be scum is that she hasn’t actually done all that much proactive wolfhunting. That’s what I sort of realized when I was thinking about her yesterday. I got sort of misled in my last game by a similarly inexperienced player who defended themselves well and sort of hit all the right emotional beats… but ultimately didn’t actually do any scumhunting, which was the key to realizing they were scum. I think Nancy’s defense of herself is good and her approach to everything makes total sense. But maybe she’s just scum anyway?
Other people pushed her yesterday and noted her scummy posts, so I don't need to repeat. Shadow's read on her is neat, like I said, and makes sense sense she did sort of only pick some areas to focus on?
The posts I have noted are:
204 – First post. As Lissa said, wolfy. Not the “We both rolled town”, I don’t care about that, just the way the Gemma read is sort of… “oh she could be scum but maybe its nothing”. That’s newbie scum 101. The LW read too. “i like him but who knows”
266 and 274 – Another case of the “well i think X but it might be nothing” read. Says she’ll look more into it. She… doesn’t?
339 – Weak response to a question. Null read on Rhand… she doesn’t ever really… progress this, does she?
The only actual scumhunting she does as far as I recall is this big ISO on Gemma in 450? She never… like, finishes it, or does anything with it. Suspecting Gemma is in line with her earlier thoughts, so that lines up, but, meh. She kind of… doesn’t do much after that, says she’ll do more ISOs, doesn’t, then leaves for vacation.
Ultimately, I think I still lean towards her being town. I think she has some weak posts, but, like, she’s a pretty new player and new players make weak and scummy posts sometimes. As of now, I weigh the other stuff more. But I don’t rule her out as being scum, mainly (and especially) because I’m not really convinced all 3 scum are definitely in my bottom 4? So I could easily be wrong about a townread.
Curious to see what Lissa, Gemma, and Shadow think of all this.
When I read it over again it almost feels like played up uncertainty?
I was about to type a line about how it didn't fit with the player archetype I've sort of lined him up with mentally and read a little more and remembered he commented on it himself.
i think i just like to start with townreads, in order of strength? gemma's the main person i was dying to talk about =P
i promise we will talk soon but i want to finish getting my main thoughts out first. luckily this day lasts 2 weeks.
but i guess i'll ask you: why ask this question?
Why were you dying to talk about Gemma?
I don't really care about the wanting to start with townreads thing in general.
But from how much it sounded like you'd read I think you should have realized that Gemma is like... pretty consensus town afaik, like the least useful possible person itg to write a large quantity of words about why is a villager right now and even more so to prioritize that for. I know there was some weird team reads early containing Gemma but the thread felt pretty firmly moved away from that part of those reads to me by the last stretch of day.
It seems like work for the sake of appearing to care.
And then additionally being "dying" to do it is super off to me. Like I think of that feeling as happening when you feel great and strong about a read that is contentious/non-consensus to some degree. And as something that deflates some if the thread gets there.
My team agrees and also hates the part of the read that's about Gemma's progression on Reg. Which I also kind of agree with?
Okay, so my thoughts on Nancy are actually kinda split. I have some reasons to believe she is town, but I actually don’t think it’s worth clearing over for sure. I’m gonna split this post into two sections.
Reasons for Nancy to be town:
Part 1: Her reactions to suspicion on her
I think a lot of Nancy’s early interactions (mainly with Gemma) indicated that she was sort of… confused, and annoyed with Gemma. Gemma basically keeps prodding at Nancy and making weird jokes, and Nancy just sort of… doesn’t get it. I think if Nancy was scum, it’s likely she would be more defensive or tense up or get rigid in some way, and she doesn’t really. Examples of this are 208, where Gemma jokes that Nancy is on her scumteam, and Nancy just has no idea what Gemma is doing, doesn’t even see it as an accusation. In 355, Lissa has basically said that Nancy is town for being, well, totally oblivious, and Nancy… proves her right by still having no clue what Lissa is saying. And 273, where she gets questioned about Gemma’s scumread on her, and she just has no clue what is going on, because she seems to think Gemma has a townread on her.
Her annoyance at Gemma comes through in 214 and 216. She is already annoyed that Gemma calls herself a “confirmed town”, even though it’s just, like, Gemma putting herself in her own readslist, which is such a standard thing to do, and then she further explains to Reg, so clearly it really bothers her. Like with Shadow, I think this is genuine annoyance, and combined with her general cluelessness, I don’t think it’s her doing some sort of defensive Omgus-y type thing. (Also note here how she compares Gemma to Sheep, I like anything that shows a player has an overall view of the game and is making links like that, makes me feel their reads are more real because they are on their mind even when they are not specifically talking about them.)
Like I said, I expect Nancy as scum to get more defensive when she is accused, and I think her posts show that she was okay with being suspected, and willing to discuss it and stay open-minded. 270 is a great example, showing that she is actually evaluating the suspicion on her, and comparing people’s reads to try to find scum. (And again, she relates it to sheep, which makes me feel like a) she is thinking about sheep and b) she is okay accept sheep’s meta situation with her) And then 271 with another really silly moment of total cluelessness. Oh, Lissa’s not scumreading me, she just called my post wolfy! Not only does it still show how she’s actually thinking about the suspicion on her (not just snap reacting to it), but again I don’t think as wolf she fakes this sort of naiveté.
And then there’s her reaction to Lissa’s continued pushing, where she basically gets really aggressive against Lissa. In 354, she calls Lissa’s push lazy and terribad! Like I said, I think scum with Nancy’s experience level and personality would be more likely to sort of tense up and get defensive, but she actually explores Lissa’s push for a while and only later settles in to this. But the followup is what is really important: She comes around to a townread on Lissa! She ultimately gives Lissa the townread in 559, but she doesn’t even say it to Lissa herself, she’s actually speaking with Roz and defending Lissa. It doesn’t feel like she’s trying to appease Lissa or get Lissa off her case with this, as a result. She also has a sort of confidence here that I like, where she basically says she could’ve scumread Lissa correctly if she was scum. And 561 in particular, she really defends her Lissa read and even says “I challenge you to review my interactions with her and show me how her reactions were fake”. I don’t think a scum Nancy can fake this level of confidence, the progression on Lissa makes total sense to me.
Part 2: The Redacted
Okay, so this is the main thing. Part 1 is stuff that makes me townread her, but, y’know, whatever.
But part 2.
I guess I don’t really wanna dwell on this much because it’s kind of… not cool. But it’s in the game so I have to say it.
Nancy basically defended herself by saying that a post she made was definitely townie, because someone else in an ongoing game made a similar post, and she thinks they are town. Or rather, because they make posts like that all the time as town. She wondered if it was okay to post about it and even though she didn’t receive confirmation, she basically did it anyway. (333) No, I haven’t made any attempt to see what she’s talking about. But that’s just insane, and I have to assume she is actually town, because only townies come up with crazy nonsensical ***** like this. She doubles down on it in 349 with a level of insistence that I believe she can only have because she actually somehow believes this proves her town (or at least, proves the post wasn’t scummy), not because it’s some weird scum strategy she’s trying to do.
Anyway, these posts show more of her Lissa progression, so hey, there’s that too.
Nancy having a massive overreaction to a push on her, citing some crazy and not-quite-legal stuff, and then ultimately calming down and calling Lissa town… fits with what I expect from her town game.
Part 3: Sheep
This is a mini-point, but I think the interactions between Nancy and Sheep are pretty telling, for both of them. Sheep came in basically saying he knows Nancy and her meta because of experience. Nancy townreads sheep pretty quickly. So does, well, everyone else. Anyway, sheep questions Nancy’s townread of him in 428 and I like Nancy’s reactions, she’s just kinda like “yeah it was too strong”, I think it’s good self-awareness and not self-conscious. Worth noting that sheep does eventually give Nancy the townread in 645. Not really enough for me to trust Nancy on it’s own, but in combination with other stuff, it helps.
Reasons for Nancy to be scum:
I actually don’t have anything new to add here, other people have covered this. The reason for Nancy to be scum is that she hasn’t actually done all that much proactive wolfhunting. That’s what I sort of realized when I was thinking about her yesterday. I got sort of misled in my last game by a similarly inexperienced player who defended themselves well and sort of hit all the right emotional beats… but ultimately didn’t actually do any scumhunting, which was the key to realizing they were scum. I think Nancy’s defense of herself is good and her approach to everything makes total sense. But maybe she’s just scum anyway?
Other people pushed her yesterday and noted her scummy posts, so I don't need to repeat. Shadow's read on her is neat, like I said, and makes sense sense she did sort of only pick some areas to focus on?
The posts I have noted are:
204 – First post. As Lissa said, wolfy. Not the “We both rolled town”, I don’t care about that, just the way the Gemma read is sort of… “oh she could be scum but maybe its nothing”. That’s newbie scum 101. The LW read too. “i like him but who knows”
266 and 274 – Another case of the “well i think X but it might be nothing” read. Says she’ll look more into it. She… doesn’t?
339 – Weak response to a question. Null read on Rhand… she doesn’t ever really… progress this, does she?
The only actual scumhunting she does as far as I recall is this big ISO on Gemma in 450? She never… like, finishes it, or does anything with it. Suspecting Gemma is in line with her earlier thoughts, so that lines up, but, meh. She kind of… doesn’t do much after that, says she’ll do more ISOs, doesn’t, then leaves for vacation.
Ultimately, I think I still lean towards her being town. I think she has some weak posts, but, like, she’s a pretty new player and new players make weak and scummy posts sometimes. As of now, I weigh the other stuff more. But I don’t rule her out as being scum, mainly (and especially) because I’m not really convinced all 3 scum are definitely in my bottom 4? So I could easily be wrong about a townread.
Curious to see what Lissa, Gemma, and Shadow think of all this.
Uhh what.
Okay with being suspected and willing to be open minded?
What posts are you reading?
I'm actually confused by ~all of where you're saying she isn't being defensive/etc. Because she... was. Way before that. I mean it was lash-out defensive. But uh, maybe it is from having been in the interaction vs. reading it long after it happened, but we are applying wildly different definitions of the word if you think she got there that late.
I agree with the rest of the stuff about her being town (I don't really think/get defensive = wolfy for her she just seems like an incredibly defensive player) but that entire perception is ?????? to me.
With regards to the rest of the post I think she feels like... a pretty reactive player, stylistically? From very limited experience.
I actually like the post that Lissa referenced now that I’ve had time to read it all. (262) I don’t really know about the “making up mafia theory” part, but this was the first post that felt sincere to me? i.e. The reaction feels real and he feels pretty determined to shut down what he feels is a bad case.
This post is also where he locks in to the Gemma/Shadow/Reg scum team. So that’s what I wanna discuss. The Gemma/Shadow/Reg scumteam theory is completely insane. It’s the most paranoid silly conspiracy theory ever to think the scumteam is the three people in the game who know each other the best and just all entered and immediately started three-way buddying each other like that. This is why I townread LW. Because LW suggested it and seemed really sure of it.
But Rhand follows it. And I don’t know whether that makes him a stubborn townie who is essentially OMGUSing Gemma and then crafting an entire team because of it, or if he’s scum that is just following on to what he thinks is an okay team theory to fake. I’m curious what people’s opinions are on this.
He also has a pretty strong mindmeld read with LW. This is what prompted Shadow to be like “how is anyone liking LW’s posts”, which Rhand justified with a “yeah I know its weird I usually don’t” (124 and 272) I don't really have any comment on this, I just think it's worth noting. It's possible he is scum trying to latch on to LW, but has trouble justifying why?
Relevant Posts for Rhand locking in the Gemma/Shadow/Reg team and continuing his townread of LW: 304, 308
He basically says that Reg is scum entirely because of Gemma's treatment of him? And that Shadow is scum either way, presumably for... Shadow's treatment of Gemma. It's just crazy to me that someone can actually think they are w/w, so I have a really hard time understanding this. He gives some reads on other players in 308... eh, they're fine. He centers it all on the Gemma/Reg/Shadow team mostly, which sort of ties in to what I noticed near EoD yesterday, which is that he bases a lot of his reads on worldbuilding like that. I'd like to see him actually explain in more depth why he is reading people the way he does, because I think it's easy for scum to base things on association like that.
It's also worth noting that in 308, he says that Shadow is scum because Shadow tried to go after Lastwhisper. This is consistent with his EoD yesterday: He cited my vote on Lastwhisper as the reason why he voted me, and (presumably?) still thinks I am scum. So that's points for consistency. But also, Shadow... didn't really go after LW? Shadow shaded LW's posts a bit but ranked him pretty high on his readslist and didn't actually vote LW until much later. @Rhand can you explain exactly how you thought Shadow was going after LW?
A weird post I noted is 837 where he is asked to explain why he's voting for Wheat and not Shadow, and says that there's not enough support for a Shadow lynch. Weird because, in the most recent votals, Shadow is at 3 and Wheat is at 2...? And also I just... I never got the impression that there wasn't "enough support" for a Shadow lynch, Shadow seemed to be one of the main targets all day. I don't really how this is scum-motivated unless he is buddies with Shadow, but still. @Rhand Why did you think a Shadow lynch didn't have enough support?
Other than that, I basically agree with whoever said his later part of day 1 felt... like there's not really a huge amount of progression from what I recall, other than moving onto Wheat, he just sort of restates his reads and doesn't seem particularly invested, until he picks up votes and then he seems sort of flail-y. It's hard for me to be unbiased because he votes me, and on one hand it fits with his behaviour and his stance on LW, but on the other hand it's just, like... really? Looking at it again now, he calls out Vaimes too... I guess because Vaimes had defended him earlier, but then votes him? And still thinks Wheat is scum. It kind of feels like just an aggressive angry townie, but I don't have any real reason to believe it's not fakeable.
Also as I'm looking at it, I notice he already had Regfan as scum in his last readslist, so the whole thing of like "omg dels is definitely scum" is uh... it shouldn't be as much of a "revelation" as it is?
Anyway, I noted 3 people's suspicion on Rhand:
104 - Gemma's initial suspicion of Rhand because of his early questions. (102) I agree with Gemma here, thought Rhand had a weak start. He furthers it in 116 which felt a bit like a "look at why what i'm doing is townie". He votes Gemma in 106 with a sort of... weird amount of conviction, but eh.
396 - Reg was suspicious of Rhand because Rhand's progression towards reaching the whole 3-person scumteam of Gemma/Shadow/Reg wasn't really there. I agree with this as well. I can see where the Gemma thing comes in but I feel you need to do a lot more work to justify why Gemma is with exactly Shadow and Reg, and Rhand didn't really do this, he just sort of followed LW onto it.
514 - Noting Wheat's read on Rhand here. "Rhand feels more like Rhand impersonating Rhand than Rhand himself. Something is missing from his posts." Wheat still felt this way at EoD (1206), to which Rhand replied: "That is true. I completely lost my conviction the last hours, which is very unme." I don't think Wheat was killed by mafia, but either way, his read is still valuable.
Ultimately... eh. I think Rhand could very well be mafia. But I'm not convinced, and some things give me pause. Again, I want to see thoughts from Gemma and Lissa on this.
Oh the game started again.
@Dels: why are you focusing on explaining townreads rather than scumreads?
vote: Dels
uh, i'm not? i want to go through all of them, i'm just going in order. it takes time.
also the townreads are more important to me because i trust them way more. i care more about solidifying those and then trying to then narrow down scum in the rest.
also, what sheep said. do you actually care about the answer to this question? or is it just shade in the form of a question?
Why were you dying to talk about Gemma? I don't really care about the wanting to start with townreads thing in general. But from how much it sounded like you'd read I think you should have realized that Gemma is like... pretty consensus town afaik, like the least useful possible person itg to write a large quantity of words about why is a villager right now and even more so to prioritize that for. I know there was some weird team reads early containing Gemma but the thread felt pretty firmly moved away from that part of those reads to me by the last stretch of day. It seems like work for the sake of appearing to care. And then additionally being "dying" to do it is super off to me. Like I think of that feeling as happening when you feel great and strong about a read that is contentious/non-consensus to some degree. And as something that deflates some if the thread gets there. My team agrees and also hates the part of the read that's about Gemma's progression on Reg. Which I also kind of agree with?
because she is my strongest read and i love her posts?
i always get excited to talk about people that i townread
i'm going to write a large amount of words about every person that i have things to say about, which is... most of the game, besides you and sheep.
i don't know if she is concensus town? i think she's generally townread and i know reg and shadow both townread her, you and vaimes too i assume. but i know LW/rhand both had her a suspect, nancy did, not sure about the others. so eh. i get what you're saying but also, like... i want to explain my reads on people so I'm gonna talk about it, so that if people are like "what do you think about gemma" i have an actual answer to point to besides just "she's town". i don't really classify "dying to talk about" as having to be a non-consensus read.
Uhh what.Okay with being suspected and willing to be open minded? What posts are you reading? I'm actually confused by ~all of where you're saying she isn't being defensive/etc. Because she... was. Way before that. I mean it was lash-out defensive. But uh, maybe it is from having been in the interaction vs. reading it long after it happened, but we are applying wildly different definitions of the word if you think she got there that late. I agree with the rest of the stuff about her being town (I don't really think/get defensive = wolfy for her she just seems like an incredibly defensive player) but that entire perception is ?????? to me. With regards to the rest of the post I think she feels like... a pretty reactive player, stylistically? From very limited experience.
well i'm mostly talking about... the posts i cited right after that. you're right that she got a lot more defensive towards you later, but at the beginning she was a lot more open to it. she only lashed out when you started being "nasty". i think she was okay with the suspicion at first, just not okay with your uhhhhhhhh methods. i guess i associate the word "defensive" with more... like i said, rigidity? i think she did lash out at you but it feels more, uh, emotional and reactive than defensive to me. in mafia terms, i think defensive refers more to like, being afraid of being caught, which that still doesn't feel like to me.
she probably is a pretty reactive player so maybe it makes sense for her not to have done a ton of scumhunting. i don't exactly expect her to be super proactive as town, i guess, so you may be right.
i didn't think that gemma was that strongly "concensus town" but i couldn't remember your read on her
anyway
i am going to sleep now. sorry i am taking so long to get everything out but i would rather take the time to actually collect all my thoughts solidly in one place rather than try to do it quickly and then have to keep expanding/clarifying, and it takes time.
i didn't think that gemma was that strongly "concensus town" but i couldn't remember your read on her
anyway
i am going to sleep now. sorry i am taking so long to get everything out but i would rather take the time to actually collect all my thoughts solidly in one place rather than try to do it quickly and then have to keep expanding/clarifying, and it takes time.
i'm like slightly weirded out that sheep doesn't have any paranoia about me considering he basically was always wary of me last game we played
but i was town that game so i guess it makes sense that he's, like, not gonna listen to that again
basically sheep and i just played a game last month, hell it was probably while this game was ongoing now that i think about it
and basically i sort of just assumed sheep was town in it, but then ultimately had him in my PoE because, well, I had townreads elsewhere, and I voted sheep, then sheep lived and I went back to assuming sheep was town, and then got convinced he was scum again and then i died.
and one of the main things there that made me trust sheep was how sheep entered the game and was like "i have great meta on player X and player Y, i can read them for sure" because basically it was like... if sheep is scum then he's just making his life way harder by immediately stating this and putting so much stock in it. he ultimately read players X and Y as town, and they were town. (then he changed one of the reads to scum and was wrong) but either way, the reasoning was right.
and basically i thought the same thing here with how sheep posted about nancy, and i think a few others already said this. if sheep is a w and nancy is town then he basically has to townread her 'cause if he gets it wrong, he looks bad, and if she's a wolf with him then he's creating a really obvious link. ultimately sheep settled on nancy being town but he didn't, like, lock it in, and he's still wondering about it right here. and i just don't really think that makes sense if he's a wolf? if he's a wolf and he starts with a "i can read nancy for sure" you'd think he'd give a more confident read. he also did the same thing with wisp, saying that wisp was very different than his scum game. not sure how much it means, but point in his favour.
besides that i just think sheep's posts have been mostly the same as what i saw from him as town, and the progressions... generally make sense? only thing i really noticed (and others said this) is he sort of dropped off a bit in the second half of the day. i have some sheep posts noted but i don't think any of it is important enough but maybe i'll get around to that at some point.
sorry i'm sort of talking around you sheep when you're right here, but all that to say, i hope you are town again and if you are i would like to think i can be more successful at not dropping you into my PoE
rhand townlean from earlier feels a lot weaker and he's basically just null
lissa exchange with nancy drew was towny
nancy drew towny
u and shadow bit under null
dont really remember eanything else from this game
basically everyone else null
Man it's ******* weird that you still have me as below null. Like I know I have a good scumgame or whatever but even people who respect it can't help but townread me in games and I've never seen someone just straight nullread me after 350-posting day 1.
I'm not sure if I can even consider that a readlist tbh.
Like.
towny
Dels
Lissa
null
Nancy
Rhand
killjoy
Vaimes
bit under null
shadow
Gemma
So basically you have 6 nullreads and 2 ?town? reads. Am assuming your comment about Nancy's activity pulls her down in the same way as Rhand. I wouldn't have thought that was even possible, especially in team mafia.
I...kinda think it’s possible that Last was the vig shot? Like, wheat doesn’t make a lot of sense as a NK, but Last? Really? I dunno. I’m trying not to laugh either way because...well Last. Just sucks that he was a PR.
Dels coming into today with stupid amounts of effort and also flipping Regs read on me is ??? but it also doesn’t actually make sense from a scum perspective. And his WIM both yesterday at day end and today is not what I would expect from scum in his shoes.
@Dels: WRT Nancy, I just don’t agree with you about the OoG/angle-y stuff being AI. I don’t reeeeaaaaly want to talk about it, mostly I think it should be ignored, and in general I don’t ever buy the noob excuse for someone being scummy; I think there is a difference (kinda feel like this is similar to a scumread I had on Tubba Fett in Low Fantasy Mafia, where he was scum but propped up by being new).
I feel like sheep got some super early towncred, and has basically faded into posting nothing posts just to seem present, which is exactly what he did in the hydra game I played with him as scum. I’d like to see more and some actual thoughts.
Nothing has change wrt Rhand, I think he’s still scum, and I like that Dels also asked him about the weirdness of his read surrounding thinking I’d pushed past and then not actually reevaluating when corrected, cause he’s still never addressed that.
Vote Rhand
Still to do:
Dig into Vaimes and killjoy’s posts cause those two I’m least certain on. I like Vaimes for town in general, and killjoy I’m just not sure.Shadow
Gemma
Lissa
Dels
Vaimes
Killjoy
Sheep
Nancy
Rhand
sorry, officially multitabling (playing in multiple mafia games therefore splitting my time) as of now. will continue here soon, and won't mention this again as per rules.
Why were you dying to talk about Gemma? I don't really care about the wanting to start with townreads thing in general. But from how much it sounded like you'd read I think you should have realized that Gemma is like... pretty consensus town afaik, like the least useful possible person itg to write a large quantity of words about why is a villager right now and even more so to prioritize that for. I know there was some weird team reads early containing Gemma but the thread felt pretty firmly moved away from that part of those reads to me by the last stretch of day. It seems like work for the sake of appearing to care. And then additionally being "dying" to do it is super off to me. Like I think of that feeling as happening when you feel great and strong about a read that is contentious/non-consensus to some degree. And as something that deflates some if the thread gets there. My team agrees and also hates the part of the read that's about Gemma's progression on Reg. Which I also kind of agree with?
because she is my strongest read and i love her posts?
i always get excited to talk about people that i townread
i'm going to write a large amount of words about every person that i have things to say about, which is... most of the game, besides you and sheep.
i don't know if she is concensus town? i think she's generally townread and i know reg and shadow both townread her, you and vaimes too i assume. but i know LW/rhand both had her a suspect, nancy did, not sure about the others. so eh. i get what you're saying but also, like... i want to explain my reads on people so I'm gonna talk about it, so that if people are like "what do you think about gemma" i have an actual answer to point to besides just "she's town". i don't really classify "dying to talk about" as having to be a non-consensus read.
Uhh what.Okay with being suspected and willing to be open minded? What posts are you reading? I'm actually confused by ~all of where you're saying she isn't being defensive/etc. Because she... was. Way before that. I mean it was lash-out defensive. But uh, maybe it is from having been in the interaction vs. reading it long after it happened, but we are applying wildly different definitions of the word if you think she got there that late. I agree with the rest of the stuff about her being town (I don't really think/get defensive = wolfy for her she just seems like an incredibly defensive player) but that entire perception is ?????? to me. With regards to the rest of the post I think she feels like... a pretty reactive player, stylistically? From very limited experience.
well i'm mostly talking about... the posts i cited right after that. you're right that she got a lot more defensive towards you later, but at the beginning she was a lot more open to it. she only lashed out when you started being "nasty". i think she was okay with the suspicion at first, just not okay with your uhhhhhhhh methods. i guess i associate the word "defensive" with more... like i said, rigidity? i think she did lash out at you but it feels more, uh, emotional and reactive than defensive to me. in mafia terms, i think defensive refers more to like, being afraid of being caught, which that still doesn't feel like to me.
she probably is a pretty reactive player so maybe it makes sense for her not to have done a ton of scumhunting. i don't exactly expect her to be super proactive as town, i guess, so you may be right.
Consensus town might have been a slight overstatement?
I thought those wolfreads had faded by EoD.
I think of being excited to share something as being typically related to... having something new or novel to share I guess, or feeling like you have input that makes an impact. Being so specifically excited to talk about a read that, consensus of not, was pretty widespread and unremarkable afaict when you got here is weird to me. And the way you talked about the read also just felt like overplaying/making a show of excitement at a lot of points.
Like maybe I'm just not understanding the perspective of subbing into a game that's been running for 2 weeks but.
I think we just have vastly different definitions of defensive then. I thought she thought I was being "nasty" or w/e as like a collective buildup of at least the whole time she realized/thought it was a full wolfread.
Defensive is a subset of emotional/reactive imo, at least a lot of it is, but this gets into just talking about the meaning of words. I don't really associate it with rigidity, at least not rigidity by itself.
Christ, Lissa, it's almost like you don't want me to get there on you.
What is this in reference to?
If it's about the readlist thing again I don't understand why it is such a rush.
If it's about my play in general today I basically didn't touch anything overnight and had a hard time getting back into things today, probably a questionable decision when I'd just been away for a big chunk of yesterday but meh, should be better now.
Sheep are you saying you find Gemma unmemorable? ????
I...kinda think it’s possible that Last was the vig shot? Like, wheat doesn’t make a lot of sense as a NK, but Last? Really? I dunno. I’m trying not to laugh either way because...well Last. Just sucks that he was a PR.
Dels coming into today with stupid amounts of effort and also flipping Regs read on me is ??? but it also doesn’t actually make sense from a scum perspective. And his WIM both yesterday at day end and today is not what I would expect from scum in his shoes.
@Lissa: Dels coming into the game with <24 hours left in the day and playing like he’s been here the whole time is not something I think scum would do; he’d basically have a free pass to not be super present and maybe formulate a plan overnight. Instead he made himself into a thread presence.
In your opinion, who would you expect to sniff out that LW was a PR? Because I think that's the reason he got shot. He was widely townread at first, sure, but then sort of dwindled down a bit to the point where offing him N1 looks a little hmm.
@Lissa: Dels coming into the game with <24 hours left in the day and playing like he’s been here the whole time is not something I think scum would do; he’d basically have a free pass to not be super present and maybe formulate a plan overnight. Instead he made himself into a thread presence.
Countpoint: as scum, his plan could be "be super present before EoD in order to integrate self into game."
I'm in a weird spot with Lissa, I kinda think she's town but I would really like to hear where she is at with Dels/KJ/shadow/Rhand before I take that read too far. Her take on shadow especially is weird because she resisted that wagon a ton without ever seeming to have much of an actual read on shadow. She is also a bit of a priority for me because she affects a lot of my worlds.
Hi Lissa an awkward amount of that was actually directed at you despite being written in the third person...
@Lissa: Dels coming into the game with <24 hours left in the day and playing like he’s been here the whole time is not something I think scum would do; he’d basically have a free pass to not be super present and maybe formulate a plan overnight. Instead he made himself into a thread presence.
@Lissa: Dels coming into the game with <24 hours left in the day and playing like he’s been here the whole time is not something I think scum would do; he’d basically have a free pass to not be super present and maybe formulate a plan overnight. Instead he made himself into a thread presence.
I don't really like... know why he wouldn't want to be a thread presence?
Feel like this is a lot more a person thing than alignment thing.
Just read Nancy in pirates (for anyone who is interested: https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/search?search-thread-id=788489&by-author=Nancy Drew 39) and it’s not really a lot to go on. She is however concerned about reads on herself there too (she was town that game). Slightly more succinct posting, but that could be a product of her being sick. Ugh, I don’t know really, I could definitely use another set of eyes on it just to see if there is anything I missed?
I feel like this is fishing pretty hard to actually find something to say about that iso which there... really is not much to.
I guess I'm not sure that's actually a wolf thing though.
You know what, I’ve had a bit of a discussion with my team and I want to try something.
Vote Lastwhisper
Last feels like he’s almost in antispew mode; his posts feel like himself, but with a reserved quality, like he’s really trying not to screw things up.
I don’t actually think a Last lynch is in the cards today, but I think he’s going to need some serious scrutiny tomorrow, he freaked out when I voted him, he’s basically doing everything in his power to force through a lynch on me. If he’s town, this play is inexcusable, arrogant, and frankly insulting.
Vote Roz
This slot is never getting NK’d, and I absolutely don’t want him in any LyLo.
I kinda hate this progression, just... jarring.
Shadow's whole posting about LW around eod actually feels really like, slimy. I think what it is is shadow super suddenly pivots into wolfreading LW, out of wolfreading Rhand and having them as a nonpair, and then gets really showy/confident without really a lot of transition or leadup.
@Vaimes: I think the nature of this event means that almost any slot (Well, a good portion anyway) could have picked up on Last being a PR.
I have not played with Dels (seriously, my phone keeps trying to change this to “Adele”) before. I was somewhat going on the assumption that he’s similar to his teammates (high effort, solvey, hates to roll scum). I briefly discussed him with my team, the general feeling was that he was pretty great and hopefully would shed some better light on the slot.
Can you talk to me about your reasons for waiting on a read list?
@Gemma: wrt powerwolfing, I guess it kinda depends on how flips go, but it just seems like an awkward position to power wolf from vs him just being town.
(Aren’t you super sure his slot is town anyway?)
@Lissa: those last three posts you quoted, I was specifically being run up by someone I think is scum, and it was frustrating. Why would you expect a different reaction?
First off, I wanna link 1153 for reference. (My thoughts on Shadow yesterday – they still hold up) The tl;dr of that is that I liked his aggressiveness, his insistence against Roz, his treatment of Gemma, and his wariness of Lastwhisper. By reading more, it’s actually helped me reinforce this view, and I see how the 6 pages I read fit into the whole 26.
For Shadow, I want to primarily examine how he treated the people he was suspicious of, and show why they are real progressions.
Lastwhisper:
So, let’s begin with 119, where Shadow starts to sort of shade LW. Rhand and someone else both said “I’m agreeing with LW a lot, and I never do!” (paraphrased) and Shadow was immediately put off by these mindmeld reads. And then in 129, Shadow basically calls LW oblivious. The reason I point these out is because these don’t read to me as a scum pushing on a townie – it reads like Shadow is genuinely annoyed by (or, to be a bit harsher, looks down upon) LW and has real frustration about the way the game is treating him. 406 shows consistency with this PoV, he asks Vaimes (again) how anyone could be mindmelding with LW. And why I don’t think this is scummy, is I don’t think scum will just outwardly express frustration that a townie is being townread! It doesn’t feel like an agenda to break down townreads on LW, that’d just be too obvious a play and I really doubt that’s what Shadow is doing.
Posts 527 and 528 are really funny, he quickly throws out some more worry about LW, and then immediately takes it back. I have no real point here. But I think it’s a towny thought process that shows that LW is still on his mind, and that he’s actually thinking about it, not just shading for no reason. 652 is another post that shows he is actually thinking about LW: When Wheat posts a scumread on LW, Shadow actually points out a problem in Wheat’s case! He doesn’t use it as an opportunity to push LW more, which I think he would be happy to do if he was scum. (And could get away with) I think what we can see is that Shadow is moreso bothered by his, uh, Last’s process/thoughts, and not that he is actually solidly scumreading him.
715 is when he finally votes LW, and I think the reason why is towny. I think town are way more likely than wolves to have these weird type of “something just feels off” reads (see: Shadow’s Nancy read), and I think it lines up perfectly with how he’s been viewing LW the whole time. I have 719 noted as where LW says this vote makes Shadow scum because Shadow should know better (because apparently Shadow knows Last’s town meta), but I think it is the opposite: That is why he wouldn’t do it as scum! Scum don’t just push people for “being different” when they know the person is in fact being exactly the same because they are town. (Or if they do, they make sure they can justify it by the person actually being different, and I get the feeling that LW really really wasn't)
Shadow unvotes in 747 and basically doesn’t continue pushing it. Again, no agenda. What kind of wolf play is it to finally vote Last, and then just… back off right away? Unless you think Shadow is such a cowardly wolf to, like, go for it and then back off the instant he gets any pushback? And, to quote, “If he’s town, this play is inexcusable, arrogant, and frankly insulting.” which is perfectly in line with how Shadow has felt about Last all game. 919 shows that he continues to stay annoyed at LW throughout the rest of the day.
Essentially, I feel like, if Shadow is a wolf, he’d actually, like, hard push LW or try to make a case or something – If he’s a wolf, he’s an aggressive one (see: his push on Roz), but he’s not doing that here, which makes me think there’s no agenda, just frustration and paranoia. The consistent thing throughout the entire day is that he (sorry) just really doesn’t like LW as a player. I picked up on a bit of this in my post yesterday, because I only saw the EoD where he just kept showing passive aggressive wariness of LW, and upon reading the thread, it all makes perfect sense.
Nancy:
His Nancy read is another one that I love. 473. I want to quote it here because I think everyone should read it:
This, even more than the vote on Lastwhisper, is what feels like an authentic townie perspective to me. This type of read has a lot of depth to it, and I think townies makes this kind of read way more often, and scum struggle to fake them believably. This shows that Shadow actually has a read on the game – he is posting a lot in the thread and keeping up – and he is using it for something. And the read fits – I can definitely see where he is coming from. (And I even sort of agree with this perspective, I’ve been rethinking Nancy a bit between start of day and now. But I’ll talk about that in my Nancy post.)
I have continued pushing on Nancy noted down for 547, but I’m not sure what point I wanted to make about that post, so I’ll just leave it here, idk.
The post I actually love is 555, because this helps form the complete puzzle along with Shadow’s Last progression. Look at how damn annoyed he is that Gemma actually posts a reason to townread Nancy. He hates it. He grumbles. He moans like a wildebeast. Okay, I’m exaggerating. But my point is: when I see him get annoyed like this, it doesn’t feel like he’s pushing any sort of agenda. It feels like he hates Nancy’s posts the same way he hates Last’s, and he is truly annoyed at the possibility they might just be town. I don’t think scum shows this sort of annoyance that people aren’t accepting their pushes. Not outwardly.
Roz:
I already talked about his Roz push yesterday, but I think now I see the pattern makes sense. Shadow gets really annoyed when people don’t go for the people he is pushing. 747 is his vote post where he just… clearly hates Roz and wants her dead. There’s more posts of him pushing her. The biggest one that I liked yesterday was 1002. There’s others, but I think I highlighted these in yesterday’s post and I think we all saw those, so I won’t repeat them. But again, I think his aggressiveness here (and especially compared to how he handled Last and Nancy) is a good thing.
The fact that he handles these three pushes in different ways depending on his level of confidence, but that we can see the same underlying threads connecting them and his mindset, is what what makes me think he is town. Ultimately, like I said yesterday, the frustration and stubbornness in all three cases feels real to me, not an agenda. And if it was an agenda, he’d cover it up more.
Some other posts I liked from Shadow:
- Early shade on Sheep in 49 and 51 for being hedgey. Honestly, sheep is such an easy mislynch for scum that I don’t think scum will usually start shading him off the bat, because they can get in trouble for it when sheep flips town. Either way it feels like a good callout. (If sheep is w I guess this can be distancing but whatever)
- 698 is a good point against Rhand which also lines up with how I’m seeing Rhand’s posts. (though I’m not convinced Rhand has to be scum)
Ultimately, I have to agree with Lissa that I really don’t get where most of the Shadow suspicion is even coming from. Like I remember seeing people say that he wasn’t doing enough, or something? When he’s been in the thread it feels more than almost anyone and has made a lot of good reads.
Beyond that, I just generally like his attitude for… sort-of similar reasons to why I like Gemma’s. Shadow has a lot of “I’m so excited to be playing” posts and, quite frankly, yes they are awkward, but I really don’t think his strategy as scum would be to just… fake it and try to convince everyone how excited he is? That doesn’t even seem like the kind of scum player he is, to me. (Though I’ve never seen his scum game)
I wanna talk about Shadow/Gemma interactions seperately, so that'll be another post.
ummmm
no particular reason
i think i just like to start with townreads, in order of strength? gemma's the main person i was dying to talk about =P
i promise we will talk soon but i want to finish getting my main thoughts out first. luckily this day lasts 2 weeks.
but i guess i'll ask you: why ask this question?
that said i really do love the nancy progression so its ok
i'm still learning how to wallpost guys please forgive me, will use synonyms next time
Lol at dying to talk about me. Did you write that post about your townread on me overnight?
Hi Lissa an awkward amount of that was actually directed at you despite being written in the third person...
especially 'cause i wasn't sure if i'd even be able to make a 4th post
will continue soon
and no that wasn't pre-written, though i had a pretty good idea what i wanted to say (and still do for the rest of my bullet points)
i don't have much of a vaimes read so don't expect much, i just generally don't think any of his posts are worth townreading? i'm a PoE player so the explanations for the bottom of my lists tend to be pretty underwhelming. "i just don't townread them" though I do think KJ's catchup readslist was really bad and I wanna call that out
I guess if I had to point to any evidence that there’s actual townie thinking going on from Shadow, I would say 29. It looks good to me because he’s basically saying, “I know I’m joking around and having fun with Gemma, but actually I do think she might be town”. It shows that he’s actual thinking about if her silly posts are good, not just putting on some sort of act or buddying. (135 is where he directly explains the townread.)
I also think he has a pretty wide focus throughout the day, especially the early pages. He doesn’t really, like, rely on the Gemma thing, he branches out and reads and interacts with all the other players. I think if he was scum, it’s more likely he’d sort of rely on the Gemma interactions to keep him afloat and/or get him townread, but he doesn’t.
(And if I’m allowed to talk about myself, it’s absolutely ludicrous to think they are w/w/w with Reg. Like, insane. This is why I thought LW was town, and something I wanna talk about in regards to Rhand because he sheeped that same team)
Some other posts I have that I think show a real progression / real solving from Shadow irt Gemma:
142 I like because it, again, shows he has an actual read and is thinking about if she could be scum, and that he genuinely does think her posting makes her town.
218 The second section where he agrees with Gemma’s case on Rhand and thinks Rhand looks bad for it. This shows that his townread on Gemma is actually affecting how he perceives others – i.e. he’s not just hiding behind it.
162 Doesn’t mean much, but again shows consistency with Gemma at the top and Rhand at the bottom. Also noticing that Sheep and Last are at the top, which is good – it shows that he didn’t opportunistically push on Sheep after page 1 where he called him hedgey – again, I think as scum it’d have been easy for him to have Sheep as a scumread here. And it shows that he doesn’t really think Last is overtly scummy, just… annoying.
For Gemma, examples of her authentically solving Shadow are 403, 932, 962, 988, 994, 1003, 1004. She’s clearly very split and having an actual debate between brain and gut, and weighing all the evidence. There’s also a post I can’t find right now where Gemma said that Shadow’s “Wow, your cases are so good, I wish I could be as good as you” (paraphrased) isn’t how wolf!Shadow would treat her, because he’d want to outplay her, and even though I don’t know Shadow at all, I’m trusting Gemma’s read on that one. (And I think it’s another example showing she is really trying to solve him)
So, to Gemma and Shadow, and everyone:
I guess what I wanted to say, to tie together my townreads on both of you, is that I think you are both just town. I basically came in and saw both of you strongly pushing things near EoD, and saw Gemma going crazy over wondering about Shadow, and all I wanted was to scream was “Come on guys, you are both just obviously town!” I think it’s maybe easier to get a sort of “outsider” view as a replacement, maybe it’s not what I’d be thinking if I was in the game from the start, but I think as more of an observer, it’s a lot easier to look at a game and sort of just realize where the villagers are going crazy because they’ve been in the game for 2 weeks, and to take a more straightforward PoV and realize the simple things that people in the game might be missing.
And essentially, even though I don’t know you, Gemma, I am trusting your gut, even if you aren’t. And I think you should trust your gut too, because Shadow really seems like town to me, for these behaviour reasons you have, and for all the reasons I outlined last night.
And what I want to do, and how I’m viewing the game, is through the lens of forming a sort of “town core” there, and solving the other 6. And I hope, Gemma, you are not the paranoid type to think that I’m, like, a wolf with Shadow trying to pocket you or something (though uh from reading this thread, you may be, but I hope not), and Shadow, I know you didn’t trust Reg, and that Reg was suspicious of you, so I hope we can talk about that and work together.
So… yeah.
Reasons for Nancy to be town:
Part 1: Her reactions to suspicion on her
I think a lot of Nancy’s early interactions (mainly with Gemma) indicated that she was sort of… confused, and annoyed with Gemma. Gemma basically keeps prodding at Nancy and making weird jokes, and Nancy just sort of… doesn’t get it. I think if Nancy was scum, it’s likely she would be more defensive or tense up or get rigid in some way, and she doesn’t really. Examples of this are 208, where Gemma jokes that Nancy is on her scumteam, and Nancy just has no idea what Gemma is doing, doesn’t even see it as an accusation. In 355, Lissa has basically said that Nancy is town for being, well, totally oblivious, and Nancy… proves her right by still having no clue what Lissa is saying. And 273, where she gets questioned about Gemma’s scumread on her, and she just has no clue what is going on, because she seems to think Gemma has a townread on her.
Her annoyance at Gemma comes through in 214 and 216. She is already annoyed that Gemma calls herself a “confirmed town”, even though it’s just, like, Gemma putting herself in her own readslist, which is such a standard thing to do, and then she further explains to Reg, so clearly it really bothers her. Like with Shadow, I think this is genuine annoyance, and combined with her general cluelessness, I don’t think it’s her doing some sort of defensive Omgus-y type thing. (Also note here how she compares Gemma to Sheep, I like anything that shows a player has an overall view of the game and is making links like that, makes me feel their reads are more real because they are on their mind even when they are not specifically talking about them.)
Like I said, I expect Nancy as scum to get more defensive when she is accused, and I think her posts show that she was okay with being suspected, and willing to discuss it and stay open-minded. 270 is a great example, showing that she is actually evaluating the suspicion on her, and comparing people’s reads to try to find scum. (And again, she relates it to sheep, which makes me feel like a) she is thinking about sheep and b) she is okay accept sheep’s meta situation with her) And then 271 with another really silly moment of total cluelessness. Oh, Lissa’s not scumreading me, she just called my post wolfy! Not only does it still show how she’s actually thinking about the suspicion on her (not just snap reacting to it), but again I don’t think as wolf she fakes this sort of naiveté.
And then there’s her reaction to Lissa’s continued pushing, where she basically gets really aggressive against Lissa. In 354, she calls Lissa’s push lazy and terribad! Like I said, I think scum with Nancy’s experience level and personality would be more likely to sort of tense up and get defensive, but she actually explores Lissa’s push for a while and only later settles in to this. But the followup is what is really important: She comes around to a townread on Lissa! She ultimately gives Lissa the townread in 559, but she doesn’t even say it to Lissa herself, she’s actually speaking with Roz and defending Lissa. It doesn’t feel like she’s trying to appease Lissa or get Lissa off her case with this, as a result. She also has a sort of confidence here that I like, where she basically says she could’ve scumread Lissa correctly if she was scum. And 561 in particular, she really defends her Lissa read and even says “I challenge you to review my interactions with her and show me how her reactions were fake”. I don’t think a scum Nancy can fake this level of confidence, the progression on Lissa makes total sense to me.
Part 2: The Redacted
Okay, so this is the main thing. Part 1 is stuff that makes me townread her, but, y’know, whatever.
But part 2.
I guess I don’t really wanna dwell on this much because it’s kind of… not cool. But it’s in the game so I have to say it.
Nancy basically defended herself by saying that a post she made was definitely townie, because someone else in an ongoing game made a similar post, and she thinks they are town. Or rather, because they make posts like that all the time as town. She wondered if it was okay to post about it and even though she didn’t receive confirmation, she basically did it anyway. (333) No, I haven’t made any attempt to see what she’s talking about. But that’s just insane, and I have to assume she is actually town, because only townies come up with crazy nonsensical ***** like this. She doubles down on it in 349 with a level of insistence that I believe she can only have because she actually somehow believes this proves her town (or at least, proves the post wasn’t scummy), not because it’s some weird scum strategy she’s trying to do.
Anyway, these posts show more of her Lissa progression, so hey, there’s that too.
Nancy having a massive overreaction to a push on her, citing some crazy and not-quite-legal stuff, and then ultimately calming down and calling Lissa town… fits with what I expect from her town game.
Part 3: Sheep
This is a mini-point, but I think the interactions between Nancy and Sheep are pretty telling, for both of them. Sheep came in basically saying he knows Nancy and her meta because of experience. Nancy townreads sheep pretty quickly. So does, well, everyone else. Anyway, sheep questions Nancy’s townread of him in 428 and I like Nancy’s reactions, she’s just kinda like “yeah it was too strong”, I think it’s good self-awareness and not self-conscious. Worth noting that sheep does eventually give Nancy the townread in 645. Not really enough for me to trust Nancy on it’s own, but in combination with other stuff, it helps.
Reasons for Nancy to be scum:
I actually don’t have anything new to add here, other people have covered this. The reason for Nancy to be scum is that she hasn’t actually done all that much proactive wolfhunting. That’s what I sort of realized when I was thinking about her yesterday. I got sort of misled in my last game by a similarly inexperienced player who defended themselves well and sort of hit all the right emotional beats… but ultimately didn’t actually do any scumhunting, which was the key to realizing they were scum. I think Nancy’s defense of herself is good and her approach to everything makes total sense. But maybe she’s just scum anyway?
Other people pushed her yesterday and noted her scummy posts, so I don't need to repeat. Shadow's read on her is neat, like I said, and makes sense sense she did sort of only pick some areas to focus on?
The posts I have noted are:
204 – First post. As Lissa said, wolfy. Not the “We both rolled town”, I don’t care about that, just the way the Gemma read is sort of… “oh she could be scum but maybe its nothing”. That’s newbie scum 101. The LW read too. “i like him but who knows”
266 and 274 – Another case of the “well i think X but it might be nothing” read. Says she’ll look more into it. She… doesn’t?
339 – Weak response to a question. Null read on Rhand… she doesn’t ever really… progress this, does she?
The only actual scumhunting she does as far as I recall is this big ISO on Gemma in 450? She never… like, finishes it, or does anything with it. Suspecting Gemma is in line with her earlier thoughts, so that lines up, but, meh. She kind of… doesn’t do much after that, says she’ll do more ISOs, doesn’t, then leaves for vacation.
Ultimately, I think I still lean towards her being town. I think she has some weak posts, but, like, she’s a pretty new player and new players make weak and scummy posts sometimes. As of now, I weigh the other stuff more. But I don’t rule her out as being scum, mainly (and especially) because I’m not really convinced all 3 scum are definitely in my bottom 4? So I could easily be wrong about a townread.
Curious to see what Lissa, Gemma, and Shadow think of all this.
@Dels: why are you focusing on explaining townreads rather than scumreads?
vote: Dels
Hm.
When I read it over again it almost feels like played up uncertainty?
I was about to type a line about how it didn't fit with the player archetype I've sort of lined him up with mentally and read a little more and remembered he commented on it himself.
I'm not really sure how I feel about it.
Why were you dying to talk about Gemma?
I don't really care about the wanting to start with townreads thing in general.
But from how much it sounded like you'd read I think you should have realized that Gemma is like... pretty consensus town afaik, like the least useful possible person itg to write a large quantity of words about why is a villager right now and even more so to prioritize that for. I know there was some weird team reads early containing Gemma but the thread felt pretty firmly moved away from that part of those reads to me by the last stretch of day.
It seems like work for the sake of appearing to care.
And then additionally being "dying" to do it is super off to me. Like I think of that feeling as happening when you feel great and strong about a read that is contentious/non-consensus to some degree. And as something that deflates some if the thread gets there.
My team agrees and also hates the part of the read that's about Gemma's progression on Reg. Which I also kind of agree with?
Uhh what.
Okay with being suspected and willing to be open minded?
What posts are you reading?
I'm actually confused by ~all of where you're saying she isn't being defensive/etc. Because she... was. Way before that. I mean it was lash-out defensive. But uh, maybe it is from having been in the interaction vs. reading it long after it happened, but we are applying wildly different definitions of the word if you think she got there that late.
I agree with the rest of the stuff about her being town (I don't really think/get defensive = wolfy for her she just seems like an incredibly defensive player) but that entire perception is ?????? to me.
With regards to the rest of the post I think she feels like... a pretty reactive player, stylistically? From very limited experience.
I actually like the post that Lissa referenced now that I’ve had time to read it all. (262) I don’t really know about the “making up mafia theory” part, but this was the first post that felt sincere to me? i.e. The reaction feels real and he feels pretty determined to shut down what he feels is a bad case.
This post is also where he locks in to the Gemma/Shadow/Reg scum team. So that’s what I wanna discuss. The Gemma/Shadow/Reg scumteam theory is completely insane. It’s the most paranoid silly conspiracy theory ever to think the scumteam is the three people in the game who know each other the best and just all entered and immediately started three-way buddying each other like that. This is why I townread LW. Because LW suggested it and seemed really sure of it.
But Rhand follows it. And I don’t know whether that makes him a stubborn townie who is essentially OMGUSing Gemma and then crafting an entire team because of it, or if he’s scum that is just following on to what he thinks is an okay team theory to fake. I’m curious what people’s opinions are on this.
He also has a pretty strong mindmeld read with LW. This is what prompted Shadow to be like “how is anyone liking LW’s posts”, which Rhand justified with a “yeah I know its weird I usually don’t” (124 and 272) I don't really have any comment on this, I just think it's worth noting. It's possible he is scum trying to latch on to LW, but has trouble justifying why?
Relevant Posts for Rhand locking in the Gemma/Shadow/Reg team and continuing his townread of LW: 304, 308
He basically says that Reg is scum entirely because of Gemma's treatment of him? And that Shadow is scum either way, presumably for... Shadow's treatment of Gemma. It's just crazy to me that someone can actually think they are w/w, so I have a really hard time understanding this. He gives some reads on other players in 308... eh, they're fine. He centers it all on the Gemma/Reg/Shadow team mostly, which sort of ties in to what I noticed near EoD yesterday, which is that he bases a lot of his reads on worldbuilding like that. I'd like to see him actually explain in more depth why he is reading people the way he does, because I think it's easy for scum to base things on association like that.
It's also worth noting that in 308, he says that Shadow is scum because Shadow tried to go after Lastwhisper. This is consistent with his EoD yesterday: He cited my vote on Lastwhisper as the reason why he voted me, and (presumably?) still thinks I am scum. So that's points for consistency. But also, Shadow... didn't really go after LW? Shadow shaded LW's posts a bit but ranked him pretty high on his readslist and didn't actually vote LW until much later. @Rhand can you explain exactly how you thought Shadow was going after LW?
A weird post I noted is 837 where he is asked to explain why he's voting for Wheat and not Shadow, and says that there's not enough support for a Shadow lynch. Weird because, in the most recent votals, Shadow is at 3 and Wheat is at 2...? And also I just... I never got the impression that there wasn't "enough support" for a Shadow lynch, Shadow seemed to be one of the main targets all day. I don't really how this is scum-motivated unless he is buddies with Shadow, but still. @Rhand Why did you think a Shadow lynch didn't have enough support?
Other than that, I basically agree with whoever said his later part of day 1 felt... like there's not really a huge amount of progression from what I recall, other than moving onto Wheat, he just sort of restates his reads and doesn't seem particularly invested, until he picks up votes and then he seems sort of flail-y. It's hard for me to be unbiased because he votes me, and on one hand it fits with his behaviour and his stance on LW, but on the other hand it's just, like... really? Looking at it again now, he calls out Vaimes too... I guess because Vaimes had defended him earlier, but then votes him? And still thinks Wheat is scum. It kind of feels like just an aggressive angry townie, but I don't have any real reason to believe it's not fakeable.
Also as I'm looking at it, I notice he already had Regfan as scum in his last readslist, so the whole thing of like "omg dels is definitely scum" is uh... it shouldn't be as much of a "revelation" as it is?
Anyway, I noted 3 people's suspicion on Rhand:
104 - Gemma's initial suspicion of Rhand because of his early questions. (102) I agree with Gemma here, thought Rhand had a weak start. He furthers it in 116 which felt a bit like a "look at why what i'm doing is townie". He votes Gemma in 106 with a sort of... weird amount of conviction, but eh.
396 - Reg was suspicious of Rhand because Rhand's progression towards reaching the whole 3-person scumteam of Gemma/Shadow/Reg wasn't really there. I agree with this as well. I can see where the Gemma thing comes in but I feel you need to do a lot more work to justify why Gemma is with exactly Shadow and Reg, and Rhand didn't really do this, he just sort of followed LW onto it.
514 - Noting Wheat's read on Rhand here. "Rhand feels more like Rhand impersonating Rhand than Rhand himself. Something is missing from his posts." Wheat still felt this way at EoD (1206), to which Rhand replied: "That is true. I completely lost my conviction the last hours, which is very unme." I don't think Wheat was killed by mafia, but either way, his read is still valuable.
Ultimately... eh. I think Rhand could very well be mafia. But I'm not convinced, and some things give me pause. Again, I want to see thoughts from Gemma and Lissa on this.
uh, i'm not? i want to go through all of them, i'm just going in order. it takes time.
also the townreads are more important to me because i trust them way more. i care more about solidifying those and then trying to then narrow down scum in the rest.
also, what sheep said. do you actually care about the answer to this question? or is it just shade in the form of a question?
i always get excited to talk about people that i townread
i'm going to write a large amount of words about every person that i have things to say about, which is... most of the game, besides you and sheep.
i don't know if she is concensus town? i think she's generally townread and i know reg and shadow both townread her, you and vaimes too i assume. but i know LW/rhand both had her a suspect, nancy did, not sure about the others. so eh. i get what you're saying but also, like... i want to explain my reads on people so I'm gonna talk about it, so that if people are like "what do you think about gemma" i have an actual answer to point to besides just "she's town". i don't really classify "dying to talk about" as having to be a non-consensus read.
well i'm mostly talking about... the posts i cited right after that. you're right that she got a lot more defensive towards you later, but at the beginning she was a lot more open to it. she only lashed out when you started being "nasty". i think she was okay with the suspicion at first, just not okay with your uhhhhhhhh methods. i guess i associate the word "defensive" with more... like i said, rigidity? i think she did lash out at you but it feels more, uh, emotional and reactive than defensive to me. in mafia terms, i think defensive refers more to like, being afraid of being caught, which that still doesn't feel like to me.
she probably is a pretty reactive player so maybe it makes sense for her not to have done a ton of scumhunting. i don't exactly expect her to be super proactive as town, i guess, so you may be right.
dels wim is towny
rhand townlean from earlier feels a lot weaker and he's basically just null
lissa exchange with nancy drew was towny
nancy drew towny
u and shadow bit under null
dont really remember eanything else from this game
basically everyone else null
think she should be posting a lot more as town
i didn't think that gemma was that strongly "concensus town" but i couldn't remember your read on her
anyway
i am going to sleep now. sorry i am taking so long to get everything out but i would rather take the time to actually collect all my thoughts solidly in one place rather than try to do it quickly and then have to keep expanding/clarifying, and it takes time.
i'll finish up tomorrow for sure
good night
Dels
sheep
People who need to post their readslist:
Rhand
shadow
Lissa
Vaimes
Nancy
KJ
Taking your time is better
i'm like slightly weirded out that sheep doesn't have any paranoia about me considering he basically was always wary of me last game we played
but i was town that game so i guess it makes sense that he's, like, not gonna listen to that again
basically sheep and i just played a game last month, hell it was probably while this game was ongoing now that i think about it
and basically i sort of just assumed sheep was town in it, but then ultimately had him in my PoE because, well, I had townreads elsewhere, and I voted sheep, then sheep lived and I went back to assuming sheep was town, and then got convinced he was scum again and then i died.
and one of the main things there that made me trust sheep was how sheep entered the game and was like "i have great meta on player X and player Y, i can read them for sure" because basically it was like... if sheep is scum then he's just making his life way harder by immediately stating this and putting so much stock in it. he ultimately read players X and Y as town, and they were town. (then he changed one of the reads to scum and was wrong) but either way, the reasoning was right.
and basically i thought the same thing here with how sheep posted about nancy, and i think a few others already said this. if sheep is a w and nancy is town then he basically has to townread her 'cause if he gets it wrong, he looks bad, and if she's a wolf with him then he's creating a really obvious link. ultimately sheep settled on nancy being town but he didn't, like, lock it in, and he's still wondering about it right here. and i just don't really think that makes sense if he's a wolf? if he's a wolf and he starts with a "i can read nancy for sure" you'd think he'd give a more confident read. he also did the same thing with wisp, saying that wisp was very different than his scum game. not sure how much it means, but point in his favour.
besides that i just think sheep's posts have been mostly the same as what i saw from him as town, and the progressions... generally make sense? only thing i really noticed (and others said this) is he sort of dropped off a bit in the second half of the day. i have some sheep posts noted but i don't think any of it is important enough but maybe i'll get around to that at some point.
sorry i'm sort of talking around you sheep when you're right here, but all that to say, i hope you are town again and if you are i would like to think i can be more successful at not dropping you into my PoE
good night
Like.
towny
Dels
Lissa
null
Nancy
Rhand
killjoy
Vaimes
bit under null
shadow
Gemma
So basically you have 6 nullreads and 2 ?town? reads. Am assuming your comment about Nancy's activity pulls her down in the same way as Rhand. I wouldn't have thought that was even possible, especially in team mafia.
Dels coming into today with stupid amounts of effort and also flipping Regs read on me is ??? but it also doesn’t actually make sense from a scum perspective. And his WIM both yesterday at day end and today is not what I would expect from scum in his shoes.
@Dels: WRT Nancy, I just don’t agree with you about the OoG/angle-y stuff being AI. I don’t reeeeaaaaly want to talk about it, mostly I think it should be ignored, and in general I don’t ever buy the noob excuse for someone being scummy; I think there is a difference (kinda feel like this is similar to a scumread I had on Tubba Fett in Low Fantasy Mafia, where he was scum but propped up by being new).
I feel like sheep got some super early towncred, and has basically faded into posting nothing posts just to seem present, which is exactly what he did in the hydra game I played with him as scum. I’d like to see more and some actual thoughts.
Nothing has change wrt Rhand, I think he’s still scum, and I like that Dels also asked him about the weirdness of his read surrounding thinking I’d pushed past and then not actually reevaluating when corrected, cause he’s still never addressed that.
Vote Rhand
Still to do:
Dig into Vaimes and killjoy’s posts cause those two I’m least certain on. I like Vaimes for town in general, and killjoy I’m just not sure.
Shadow
Gemma
Lissa
Dels
Vaimes
Killjoy
Sheep
Nancy
Rhand
I'll post one in... a bit when I'm ready/feel like I can organize my thoughts enough.
Consensus town might have been a slight overstatement?
I thought those wolfreads had faded by EoD.
I think of being excited to share something as being typically related to... having something new or novel to share I guess, or feeling like you have input that makes an impact. Being so specifically excited to talk about a read that, consensus of not, was pretty widespread and unremarkable afaict when you got here is weird to me. And the way you talked about the read also just felt like overplaying/making a show of excitement at a lot of points.
Like maybe I'm just not understanding the perspective of subbing into a game that's been running for 2 weeks but.
I think we just have vastly different definitions of defensive then. I thought she thought I was being "nasty" or w/e as like a collective buildup of at least the whole time she realized/thought it was a full wolfread.
Defensive is a subset of emotional/reactive imo, at least a lot of it is, but this gets into just talking about the meaning of words. I don't really associate it with rigidity, at least not rigidity by itself. What is this in reference to?
If it's about the readlist thing again I don't understand why it is such a rush.
If it's about my play in general today I basically didn't touch anything overnight and had a hard time getting back into things today, probably a questionable decision when I'd just been away for a big chunk of yesterday but meh, should be better now.
Sheep are you saying you find Gemma unmemorable? ????
What do you mean here by in his shoes?
I like Lissa more for asking Dels what I was going to ask (being excited to share a read that is old news, if anything).
I don't have wifi right now because the person with the password is being elusive, but that should resolve itself in a little bit.
In your opinion, who would you expect to sniff out that LW was a PR? Because I think that's the reason he got shot. He was widely townread at first, sure, but then sort of dwindled down a bit to the point where offing him N1 looks a little hmm.
Have you played with Dels before?
You act like power wolfing isn't a thing.
Dels (#1290)
sheep (#1320)
shadow (#1330)
*****list:
Vaimes
Rhand
Lissa
Nancy
KJ
Even if you're doing what I think you're doing, I'm still going to ignore your request for a while longer.
Feel like this is a lot more a person thing than alignment thing.
I feel like this is fishing pretty hard to actually find something to say about that iso which there... really is not much to.
I guess I'm not sure that's actually a wolf thing though.
Hm.
I kinda hate this progression, just... jarring.
Shadow's whole posting about LW around eod actually feels really like, slimy. I think what it is is shadow super suddenly pivots into wolfreading LW, out of wolfreading Rhand and having them as a nonpair, and then gets really showy/confident without really a lot of transition or leadup.
I do think this is grandstanding is. Kiiiinda villagery?
The type of emotion here bothers me, super sharp and panicked out of nowhere.
I feel like I'm softening what I want to communicate. I have a lot of issues with shadow's eod.
If not I think he's a wolf.
I have not played with Dels (seriously, my phone keeps trying to change this to “Adele”) before. I was somewhat going on the assumption that he’s similar to his teammates (high effort, solvey, hates to roll scum). I briefly discussed him with my team, the general feeling was that he was pretty great and hopefully would shed some better light on the slot.
Can you talk to me about your reasons for waiting on a read list?
@Gemma: wrt powerwolfing, I guess it kinda depends on how flips go, but it just seems like an awkward position to power wolf from vs him just being town.
(Aren’t you super sure his slot is town anyway?)
@Lissa: those last three posts you quoted, I was specifically being run up by someone I think is scum, and it was frustrating. Why would you expect a different reaction?
Will finish my posts soon