KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Grape: I was attempting to solve for a nullish read as opposed to a townish one.I still don't understand the problem with my choice here.
Because you didn't do anything with it. You didn't solve with it and you weren't able to explain your actions. Like this explanation makes sense but you took a week to get there and you went for information over trying to win the game while getting the same information.
So I haven't been able to post here much lately, but like...WHOA.
I do not agree that Osie should be on this team. He's been cuddling up to Mikey (who you clearly agree with me is scum) far too much.
NOPE NOPE NOPE.
I agree with you on Killjoy - the ferventness of his taking Vaimes along instead of me reeked of him looking for a fall-guy (and boy am I glad that he outed himself because he's had me pocketed SO HARD).
I'm like 90% sure that the scum are Mikey, Osie and probably Killjoy, with worlds where you and Osie are trying for the power-wolf win, but it just doesn't feel like you and Mikey are part of the same team at this point. (And although it is I guess POSSIBLE that Vezok could also just be pulling the mother of all wool over my eyes as scum, but if that's the case, then as far as I'm concerned we've already lost so meh.)
Before I vote - Vaimes, who would you choose if you were mission leader?
@Grape, Mikey, Vaimes: Killjoy is mechanically scum based on the missions.
Here's my ISOs of Wuffles and Vezok:
Wuffles_II
I haven't really played with Wuffles much, but he seems to know his stuff. He's pretty good at scum, too. I'm a bit paranoid of him after seeing his play in token mafia, I suppose. I think I was not taking him or Vezok seriously enough in previous ISOs, so I'm going to look closer here.
#46 - Late start, positive posting. NAI at worst.
#67 - Solid point towards Vaimes and more positivity. Slight +town.
#70 - Solid point towards Killjoy. Slight +town.
#84 - Looking to de-obfuscate -> Slight +town. Setup thoughts -> NAI at worst.
#111 - Fair. Could be more descriptive, but it's something. Slight +town.
#126 - Useless post. NAI at best.
#132 - Repeating useless post. Slight +scum.
#134 - Questioning and insisting that someone answer another question. Slight + town.
#157 - This I don't like. This is bizarre confidence, a bizarre read, and a bizarre response. +Scum.
#175 - Reads seem biased, but potentially organic. I think it's net +Town despite the excessive number of townreads, though that downgrades significantly if he doesn't rethink Vezok after later failures.
#192 - Okay response to my question, but I don't like the seeming town-certainty on those two players. Also excuses for a failing? Slight +scum.
#203 - "Look at silly old me, hehehe!" Eww. Slight +scum.
#204 - Now he's scumreading Killjoy out of the blue?!? NAI at best.
#226 - "Okay, nothing to see here." NAI at best.
#233 - That's a pretty hard propping up of Vaimes's post. Slight +scum.
#260, #261 - Still no read on Grape but huge confidence in reads on three other people. Oh, and Vaimes is town for no reason. +Scum.
#269, #270 - This feels like pushing an agenda. At least two scum on that team is quite possible. Besides, Grape has way more than twice as many posts as you at this point. How the heck do you not have a read on him? +Scum.
#289 - Okay… And this is a useful thought exercise, why? Also Mikey had a strong scumread on me, so this question is just misleading. Slight +scum for wasting time.
#290 - Questioning inactivity -> NAI at best.
#292 - Is Wuffles so non-self-aware that he doesn't realize the wine in his own post? That seems super dubious. +Scum.
#312 - Framing the narrative. Strong +scum.
#313 - OoG NAI
#317 - This is just false. Grape is one of the more productive players this game. +Scum.
#353 - Loaded with false equivalence, this post is manipulative garbage. Strong +scum.
#359 - "It doesn't matter what Osie's saying, because of this other thing he said." Red herring argument. Strong +scum.
#360 - Wasting time setting up rabbit holes to bait town. +Scum.
#388 - Random read without reasons, that looks like it's just saying something to say something. NAI at best.
#416 - "After all that" makes this post look super disingenuous. +Scum.[/indent]
%%%%%%%%%
Vezok
I don't know Vezok as well as some other players, but I've seen him around some. My impression of him is a very good scum hunter and all-around sensible dude with a bit of a wooden style that tends to lead to people who haven't seen him play much before scumreading him no matter his alignment, myself included. I hadn't really given Vezok a real solid read this game, kinda relying on him being town based on POE and the idea that Wuffles would townread him no matter Wuffles's alignment if Vezok was town.
[indent]#15 - Setup thoughts, NAI this early.
#20 - "I'm town!" Good point though. Slight +town.
#45 - Unexplained townread on Mikey and slight scumread on Vaimes. Slight +scum.
#56 - Unaware of setup in terms of mission results. Scum is less likely to not fully understand the setup. Slight +town.
#99 - Not sure on reads. NAI at best because of wine.
#101 - Doesn't understand strange question from Killjoy and straight-forwardly asks what KJ is expecting. Slight +town instead of a flat +town because of wording.
#103 - Honest straightforward answer. NAI at worst.
#106 - Proposal doesn't say much. Continued setup confusion, but not getting more townpoints for that.
#109 - Answering for someone else = Slight +scum. Answer itself is relatively NAI.
#117 - In context, this question looks very off the cuff. I like it. +Town.
#141 - This post feels very meaningless even in context. NAI.
#151 - This post calling Vaimes out for acting overzealous is decent. Slight +town instead of a flat +town due to coaching potential.
#159 - His argument seems like it kinda comes after his opinion -> NAI at best.
#164 - Reasoning for proposal is good. Refusal to change a read this early is bad, but could just be bad play. Overall, I think the bad kinda cancels out the good here, but I'll give him a bit of credit and go for NAI at worst.
#168 - Okay, WHY were you scumreading him? Slight +scum.
#193 - Very very certain on KJ and Mikey. How are you this certain? +Scum.
#213 - So sure on his behavioral analysis. Hmm… I like his latter two comments, though, even if there's a contradiction between the tones of his first and second comments. Slight +scum overall.
#239 - Kinda pointless post. NAI at best.
#262 - And your scumread on Vaimes vanished where? +Scum.
#273 - Grape had made 32 posts including the previous post. This is your 19th post. Grape also mostly agreed with your proposed town team in your next post, but with him instead, which looking ahead a few posts in your ISO, you ignored. Strong +Scum for disingenuous argument.
#297 - Reasoning would be great. Also, this is a huge level of certainty. Also, you're wrong. Also, you're pushing for the scummiest other players. +Scum.
#328 - Excludes himself from potential scumreads for me. Eww. +Scum.
#333 - Meta post on Wuffles. NAI at best. (Because it's pretty damn useless.)
#375 - Actively useless post. +Scum.
#395 - "BARN KJ!" Strong +Scum.
#410 - Down for Vaimes/Vezok/Grape/Wuffles. NAI at best.
#414 - This post seems scripted and forced. The question to KJ feels thrown in and the point towards me is very shady. +Scum.[/indent]
Overall Scummy.
Town
Osieorb18 - Town
Grape - Very Townie
Mikey/Vaimes - Slightly townie
So I haven't been able to post here much lately, but like...WHOA.
I do not agree that Osie should be on this team. He's been cuddling up to Mikey (who you clearly agree with me is scum) far too much.
NOPE NOPE NOPE.
I agree with you on Killjoy - the ferventness of his taking Vaimes along instead of me reeked of him looking for a fall-guy (and boy am I glad that he outed himself because he's had me pocketed SO HARD).
I'm like 90% sure that the scum are Mikey, Osie and probably Killjoy, with worlds where you and Osie are trying for the power-wolf win, but it just doesn't feel like you and Mikey are part of the same team at this point. (And although it is I guess POSSIBLE that Vezok could also just be pulling the mother of all wool over my eyes as scum, but if that's the case, then as far as I'm concerned we've already lost so meh.)
Before I vote - Vaimes, who would you choose if you were mission leader?
lol thanks Wuffles. Just need to make sure it is Mikey now.
@Osie I'll take a close look at your Vezok stuff in a bit. It needs proper looking into because he's the person I'd lose the game to here. My KJ as scum argument makes a lot less sense if KJ and Vez are buddies together.
Ah, for the record, I have to give the full 24 hours for mission votes. Sorry in advance for the slow roll or lack thereof, whichever happens to be the case.
Hard to evaluate votes when you barely have a grasp on anyone's alignment. Killjoy and vezok were the most widely townread, and here we are now.
vezok's assertion that literally all the spies are on the mission is kinda out there. I don't know what he means by "fool us" in this context - bluffing? reverse psychology?
Gah. I don't like this game. It's too hard to figure out who is scum when you have the same people alive as in the beginning.
I'd rather lose on the last mission than in the fourth one.
I'm swishing this post around in my head, and thinking that the last line sounds like scum complaining because there's only one spy on the mission.
It doesn't make much sense as a town thought. If we're going to lose, of course I don't condone gamethrowing, but I'd much rather it happen sooner rather than dragging it out.
So using assumptions of Vaimes and Vez town, KJ scum let's color some VC's. Game Actions
Proposal 1.1 by vezokpiraka was accepted. vezokpiraka, Emcee_Mikey Accept (6): vezokpiraka, Emcee_Mikey, Osieorb18, Killjoy, Grapefruit21, Wuffles_II Reject (1): Vaimes
Proposal 2.1 by Emcee_Mikey was rejected. Emcee_Mikey, Killjoy, Wuffles_II Accept (2): Emcee_Mikey, Wuffles_II Reject (5): vezokpiraka, osieorb18, killjoy, Grapefruit21, Vaimes
Proposal 2.2 by osieorb18 was accepted. vezokpiraka, osieorb18, Killjoy Accept (6): vezokpiraka, osieorb18, Killjoy, Grapefruit21, Vaimes, Wuffles_II Reject (1): Emcee_Mikey
Proposal 3.1 by Killjoy has been accepted.
Killjoy, Vezokpiraka, Vaimes
So 2.1 is kind of a massive wrench in my worldview. I need to look back and see how mikey was perceived at the time. Because him nominating his two buddies and then Wuffles voting for it doesn't strike me as super likely. Apart from that everything looks like it makes sense in the KJ is scum trying to make Vaimes his fall guy world.
Mikey deciding to withhold his vote rather than commit to a yes or no repeatedly makes me feel better about him just being in anti-spew and re-locking that scum read in. But his proposal is just skeeving me out now.
Osie voting yes to proposal 4 makes me feel a bit better about him since it only got 3 yes votes. If it was a fail scum would have piled onto it. No reason not to. Doesn't clear him, but is a point in his favor. It's even more assurance that Vaimes is lock town at this point. Just wish I could wrap my head around Vez at this point. Still haven't had time to dig into Osie's big Vez post. Work isn't kind to slow methodical cross referencing.
Mikey deciding to withhold his vote rather than commit to a yes or no repeatedly makes me feel better about him just being in anti-spew and re-locking that scum read in. But his proposal is just skeeving me out now.
Osie voting yes to proposal 4 makes me feel a bit better about him since it only got 3 yes votes. If it was a fail scum would have piled onto it. No reason not to. Doesn't clear him, but is a point in his favor. It's even more assurance that Vaimes is lock town at this point. Just wish I could wrap my head around Vez at this point. Still haven't had time to dig into Osie's big Vez post. Work isn't kind to slow methodical cross referencing.
I've made my peace losing to you at this point and once I read Osie's wall I'll make it with losing to Vez. Not looking forward to the Osie/Wuffles coinflip though.
First up, I need to apologise to everybody. I seriously underestimated the amount of time I was losing after I had to stop using my phone at work. It's gotten to the point where I don't think I'll be signing up for any further mafia games as a player. (I have two setups in review stage and a third like 2/3rd's complete, though, so you'll still be seeing me around - but hosting a game requires less consistency and more up-front prep, which is kinda where I'm at right now.)
Silver, I'm super sorry for my seeming checked-outedness this game.
Okay, so, here are my thoughts on the worlds I am imagining currently.
Let me think through the possibilities here:
All three scum on this mission - Nah. Grapefruit isn't the kind of player that would take the everloving piss like that as scum - he's way more careful, at least from what I saw in Token mafia. And Vezok is still my top town read. Vaimes is playing really town-ishly if it's him.
Possibilities of double scum on this mission (discounting the possibility of Vezokscum - he's too transparently town for that to be a possibility and we've already lost if he's fooled us all this well for this long, imo)
Grape/Vaimes - Based on the way that the games have run so far, the likelihood is that (again, discounting Vezok) Vaimes AND Osie are scum if Killjoy is town. Like this is theoretically not zero possible, but if it's a thing, then that means two of Osie/Killjoy/Mikey are town and that just doesn't seem likely. Grape/Osie - This one's a possibility. Grape is taking a huge risk by bringing Osie onto the team, as he is by far the player on the mission team that's garnered the greatest likelihood of being scum this game. He could be doing the same thing Killjoy did in mission 3, which would mean he has balls the size of the Empire state building, after how much he ripped KJ apart. Unlikely. Osie/Vaimes - I feel like these two haven't interacted much and I don't really see the world where Grape doesn't interact (either positively or negatively) with his scumteam. In token, he was constantly aware and commenting on my play, and he was totally happy to bus me if things hadn't gone exactly as well as they did. So I don't think I would have seen as little interaction between those two in the earlygame if that was the case.
Grape/Killjoy - NOT a thing. There is no reason why Grape would have gone after a scumbuddy so hard if they were W/W.
Grape/Mikey - Possible, because I don't think anyone would seriously buy an attempt at a Mikey mission at this point, with the way that Mikey's been playing.
- Grape could be trying for a win with either Osie or Vaimes. However, I don't think this is possible as (as above) an Osie/Vaimes/Grape team feels suuuper unlikely, as it would mean mikey AND Killjoy were both town, which I don't buy at this stage. And it would also mean that Grape bought ALL three scum onto this wagon, which feels unnecessary. He must have known that bringing Osie on to this mission was a massive risk - why pick Osie instead of me? That just doesn't make sense.
So I suspect that we're not going to lose the game over this mission But there is one scum laying low in this mission, and I think it's Osie by POE, if not by his OMGUS against me for calling him on his obviously fake read on ScumCeeMikey. He's telling me to get over myself, but like...I wonder why I wonder why I wonder why.
It's rare that players stick out to me so blatantly as he is as scum. And I feel like it's really weird that Osie hasn't figured that out yet, after seeing my thought processes from modding both my towngame in Arkham and my scumgame in Token.
urrrgh, this is why I don't post without my pills - this part:
and I don't really see the world where Grape doesn't interact (either positively or negatively) with his scumteam. In token, he was constantly aware and commenting on my play, and he was totally happy to bus me if things hadn't gone exactly as well as they did. So I don't think I would have seen as little interaction between those two in the earlygame if that was the case.
should be:
Grape/Vaimes - Based on the way that the games have run so far, the likelihood is that (again, discounting Vezok) Vaimes AND Osie are scum if Killjoy is town. Like this is theoretically not zero possible, but if it's a thing, then that means two of Osie/Killjoy/Mikey are town and that just doesn't seem likely. And I don't really see the world where Grape doesn't interact (either positively or negatively) with his scumteam. In token, he was constantly aware and commenting on my play, and he was totally happy to bus me if things hadn't gone exactly as well as they did. So I don't think I would have seen as little interaction between those two in the earlygame if that was the case.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
First up, I need to apologise to everybody. I seriously underestimated the amount of time I was losing after I had to stop using my phone at work. It's gotten to the point where I don't think I'll be signing up for any further mafia games as a player. (I have two setups in review stage and a third like 2/3rd's complete, though, so you'll still be seeing me around - but hosting a game requires less consistency and more up-front prep, which is kinda where I'm at right now.)
Silver, I'm super sorry for my seeming checked-outedness this game.
Okay, so, here are my thoughts on the worlds I am imagining currently.
Let me think through the possibilities here:
All three scum on this mission - Nah. Grapefruit isn't the kind of player that would take the everloving piss like that as scum - he's way more careful, at least from what I saw in Token mafia. And Vezok is still my top town read. Vaimes is playing really town-ishly if it's him.
Possibilities of double scum on this mission (discounting the possibility of Vezokscum - he's too transparently town for that to be a possibility and we've already lost if he's fooled us all this well for this long, imo)
Grape/Vaimes - Based on the way that the games have run so far, the likelihood is that (again, discounting Vezok) Vaimes AND Osie are scum if Killjoy is town. Like this is theoretically not zero possible, but if it's a thing, then that means two of Osie/Killjoy/Mikey are town and that just doesn't seem likely. Grape/Osie - This one's a possibility. Grape is taking a huge risk by bringing Osie onto the team, as he is by far the player on the mission team that's garnered the greatest likelihood of being scum this game. He could be doing the same thing Killjoy did in mission 3, which would mean he has balls the size of the Empire state building, after how much he ripped KJ apart. Unlikely. Osie/Vaimes - I feel like these two haven't interacted much and I don't really see the world where Grape doesn't interact (either positively or negatively) with his scumteam. In token, he was constantly aware and commenting on my play, and he was totally happy to bus me if things hadn't gone exactly as well as they did. So I don't think I would have seen as little interaction between those two in the earlygame if that was the case.
Grape/Killjoy - NOT a thing. There is no reason why Grape would have gone after a scumbuddy so hard if they were W/W.
Grape/Mikey - Possible, because I don't think anyone would seriously buy an attempt at a Mikey mission at this point, with the way that Mikey's been playing.
- Grape could be trying for a win with either Osie or Vaimes. However, I don't think this is possible as (as above) an Osie/Vaimes/Grape team feels suuuper unlikely, as it would mean mikey AND Killjoy were both town, which I don't buy at this stage. And it would also mean that Grape bought ALL three scum onto this wagon, which feels unnecessary. He must have known that bringing Osie on to this mission was a massive risk - why pick Osie instead of me? That just doesn't make sense.
So I suspect that we're not going to lose the game over this mission But there is one scum laying low in this mission, and I think it's Osie by POE, if not by his OMGUS against me for calling him on his obviously fake read on ScumCeeMikey. He's telling me to get over myself, but like...I wonder why I wonder why I wonder why.
It's rare that players stick out to me so blatantly as he is as scum. And I feel like it's really weird that Osie hasn't figured that out yet, after seeing my thought processes from modding both my towngame in Arkham and my scumgame in Token.
Vaimes, looks like it's all you, m'dude.
Yeah, no. That was me calling you out for being dishonest scum.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
For the record I do not endorse tiger woods or his life decisions outside his excellent fist pumps at all.
Anyway I'm going to ignore everything KJ is doing today because it's wine. Just not going to read into it at all.
@Vezok I'm not a great player but thanks for that. I just got lucky here. Anyway I'm convinced Vaimes is just town here based on the way KJ handled the mission. I'm not sure what it says about Wuffles though. My initial thought was KJ didn't want to take him because he was a scum buddy but it could have been because Vaimes was an easier fall guy than Wuffles was. Regardless if you're town there is one scum in Osie/Wuffles. I'm 95% to you being a rebel here Vez but not 100% yet.
I'm ride or die with Vaimes at this point. I'm not far off with Vez.
@Osie I know you're convinced that Mikey is town here but I cannot see it at this point. As mentioned earlier his refusal to vote yes or no really feels like anti spew to me. I'm completely convinced he's scum. Not to the extent I am wrt KJ but close. So talk to me about Vez/Wuffles. I know you're scum reading both but one of them is town.
@Wuffles so your read of Osie is that town!Osie should have realized you were town based on your processes this game? And that's why he's your pick for third scum?
I'm ride or die with Vaimes at this point. I'm not far off with Vez.
@Osie I know you're convinced that Mikey is town here but I cannot see it at this point. As mentioned earlier his refusal to vote yes or no really feels like anti spew to me. I'm completely convinced he's scum. Not to the extent I am wrt KJ but close. So talk to me about Vez/Wuffles. I know you're scum reading both but one of them is town.
@Wuffles so your read of Osie is that town!Osie should have realized you were town based on your processes this game? And that's why he's your pick for third scum?
I think Mikey has been approaching the thread organically.
I'm ride or die with Vaimes at this point. I'm not far off with Vez.
@Osie I know you're convinced that Mikey is town here but I cannot see it at this point. As mentioned earlier his refusal to vote yes or no really feels like anti spew to me. I'm completely convinced he's scum. Not to the extent I am wrt KJ but close. So talk to me about Vez/Wuffles. I know you're scum reading both but one of them is town.
@Wuffles so your read of Osie is that town!Osie should have realized you were town based on your processes this game? And that's why he's your pick for third scum?
I think Mikey has been approaching the thread organically.
Vez and Wuffles both seem to have agendas.
This is just a buzzwords filled post, How is mikey approaching the thread organically? What does that even mean?
What is my and Wuffles agenda except passing missions?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy. Check out the Shop Thread
Emcee_Mikey has been prodded. Because he hasn't posted in-thread in nearly 72 hours, did not submit a vote for the last proposal, and did not respond to my prod 48 hours ago, I will begin seeking a replacement under the assumption he has chosen to discontinue play.
So here's where I'm at. I was looking at passed missions/fails/fancy mechanics and realized that this game is actually much easier than I thought. Mechanically, KJ and Wuffles are confirmed wolves (yeah yeah, I know "shadow, that's only from your pov, isn't it a bit disingenuous?" No, it's not).
So all I have to do is solve the one of Vez/Osie/Vaimes/grape that is the last scum.
Excellent.
I think vezok gets a + for going against the last mission. He was widely townread, and going against the grain here as a spy would be a weird path to take instead of just voting yes and trying to squeeze himself onto the last mission.
By going aganst a mission that doesn't even secure a town win, he just makes it harder for himself to end up on the last mission.
I think vezok gets a + for going against the last mission. He was widely townread, and going against the grain here as a spy would be a weird path to take instead of just voting yes and trying to squeeze himself onto the last mission.
By going aganst a mission that doesn't even secure a town win, he just makes it harder for himself to end up on the last mission.
I guess? The fact that wuffles (and Mikey *shakes head*) didn’t even vote could have messed him up. A no vote from either slot would have caused it to go to the next person in line, with another chance for scum to sweep it.
Because you didn't do anything with it. You didn't solve with it and you weren't able to explain your actions. Like this explanation makes sense but you took a week to get there and you went for information over trying to win the game while getting the same information.
So I haven't been able to post here much lately, but like...WHOA.
I do not agree that Osie should be on this team. He's been cuddling up to Mikey (who you clearly agree with me is scum) far too much.
NOPE NOPE NOPE.
I agree with you on Killjoy - the ferventness of his taking Vaimes along instead of me reeked of him looking for a fall-guy (and boy am I glad that he outed himself because he's had me pocketed SO HARD).
I'm like 90% sure that the scum are Mikey, Osie and probably Killjoy, with worlds where you and Osie are trying for the power-wolf win, but it just doesn't feel like you and Mikey are part of the same team at this point. (And although it is I guess POSSIBLE that Vezok could also just be pulling the mother of all wool over my eyes as scum, but if that's the case, then as far as I'm concerned we've already lost so meh.)
Before I vote - Vaimes, who would you choose if you were mission leader?
@Grape, Mikey, Vaimes: Killjoy is mechanically scum based on the missions.
Here's my ISOs of Wuffles and Vezok:
Wuffles_II
I haven't really played with Wuffles much, but he seems to know his stuff. He's pretty good at scum, too. I'm a bit paranoid of him after seeing his play in token mafia, I suppose. I think I was not taking him or Vezok seriously enough in previous ISOs, so I'm going to look closer here.
#46 - Late start, positive posting. NAI at worst.
#67 - Solid point towards Vaimes and more positivity. Slight +town.
#70 - Solid point towards Killjoy. Slight +town.
#84 - Looking to de-obfuscate -> Slight +town. Setup thoughts -> NAI at worst.
#111 - Fair. Could be more descriptive, but it's something. Slight +town.
#126 - Useless post. NAI at best.
#132 - Repeating useless post. Slight +scum.
#134 - Questioning and insisting that someone answer another question. Slight + town.
#157 - This I don't like. This is bizarre confidence, a bizarre read, and a bizarre response. +Scum.
#175 - Reads seem biased, but potentially organic. I think it's net +Town despite the excessive number of townreads, though that downgrades significantly if he doesn't rethink Vezok after later failures.
#192 - Okay response to my question, but I don't like the seeming town-certainty on those two players. Also excuses for a failing? Slight +scum.
#203 - "Look at silly old me, hehehe!" Eww. Slight +scum.
#204 - Now he's scumreading Killjoy out of the blue?!? NAI at best.
#226 - "Okay, nothing to see here." NAI at best.
#233 - That's a pretty hard propping up of Vaimes's post. Slight +scum.
#260, #261 - Still no read on Grape but huge confidence in reads on three other people. Oh, and Vaimes is town for no reason. +Scum.
#269, #270 - This feels like pushing an agenda. At least two scum on that team is quite possible. Besides, Grape has way more than twice as many posts as you at this point. How the heck do you not have a read on him? +Scum.
#289 - Okay… And this is a useful thought exercise, why? Also Mikey had a strong scumread on me, so this question is just misleading. Slight +scum for wasting time.
#290 - Questioning inactivity -> NAI at best.
#292 - Is Wuffles so non-self-aware that he doesn't realize the wine in his own post? That seems super dubious. +Scum.
#312 - Framing the narrative. Strong +scum.
#313 - OoG NAI
#317 - This is just false. Grape is one of the more productive players this game. +Scum.
#353 - Loaded with false equivalence, this post is manipulative garbage. Strong +scum.
#359 - "It doesn't matter what Osie's saying, because of this other thing he said." Red herring argument. Strong +scum.
#360 - Wasting time setting up rabbit holes to bait town. +Scum.
#388 - Random read without reasons, that looks like it's just saying something to say something. NAI at best.
#416 - "After all that" makes this post look super disingenuous. +Scum.[/indent]
%%%%%%%%%
Vezok
I don't know Vezok as well as some other players, but I've seen him around some. My impression of him is a very good scum hunter and all-around sensible dude with a bit of a wooden style that tends to lead to people who haven't seen him play much before scumreading him no matter his alignment, myself included. I hadn't really given Vezok a real solid read this game, kinda relying on him being town based on POE and the idea that Wuffles would townread him no matter Wuffles's alignment if Vezok was town.
[indent]#15 - Setup thoughts, NAI this early.
#20 - "I'm town!" Good point though. Slight +town.
#45 - Unexplained townread on Mikey and slight scumread on Vaimes. Slight +scum.
#56 - Unaware of setup in terms of mission results. Scum is less likely to not fully understand the setup. Slight +town.
#99 - Not sure on reads. NAI at best because of wine.
#101 - Doesn't understand strange question from Killjoy and straight-forwardly asks what KJ is expecting. Slight +town instead of a flat +town because of wording.
#103 - Honest straightforward answer. NAI at worst.
#106 - Proposal doesn't say much. Continued setup confusion, but not getting more townpoints for that.
#109 - Answering for someone else = Slight +scum. Answer itself is relatively NAI.
#117 - In context, this question looks very off the cuff. I like it. +Town.
#141 - This post feels very meaningless even in context. NAI.
#151 - This post calling Vaimes out for acting overzealous is decent. Slight +town instead of a flat +town due to coaching potential.
#159 - His argument seems like it kinda comes after his opinion -> NAI at best.
#164 - Reasoning for proposal is good. Refusal to change a read this early is bad, but could just be bad play. Overall, I think the bad kinda cancels out the good here, but I'll give him a bit of credit and go for NAI at worst.
#168 - Okay, WHY were you scumreading him? Slight +scum.
#193 - Very very certain on KJ and Mikey. How are you this certain? +Scum.
#213 - So sure on his behavioral analysis. Hmm… I like his latter two comments, though, even if there's a contradiction between the tones of his first and second comments. Slight +scum overall.
#239 - Kinda pointless post. NAI at best.
#262 - And your scumread on Vaimes vanished where? +Scum.
#273 - Grape had made 32 posts including the previous post. This is your 19th post. Grape also mostly agreed with your proposed town team in your next post, but with him instead, which looking ahead a few posts in your ISO, you ignored. Strong +Scum for disingenuous argument.
#297 - Reasoning would be great. Also, this is a huge level of certainty. Also, you're wrong. Also, you're pushing for the scummiest other players. +Scum.
#328 - Excludes himself from potential scumreads for me. Eww. +Scum.
#333 - Meta post on Wuffles. NAI at best. (Because it's pretty damn useless.)
#375 - Actively useless post. +Scum.
#395 - "BARN KJ!" Strong +Scum.
#410 - Down for Vaimes/Vezok/Grape/Wuffles. NAI at best.
#414 - This post seems scripted and forced. The question to KJ feels thrown in and the point towards me is very shady. +Scum.[/indent]
Overall Scummy.
Town
Osieorb18 - Town
Grape - Very Townie
Mikey/Vaimes - Slightly townie
Vezok/Wuffles - Scummy
KJ - Scum
Scum
lol thanks Wuffles. Just need to make sure it is Mikey now.
@Osie I'll take a close look at your Vezok stuff in a bit. It needs proper looking into because he's the person I'd lose the game to here. My KJ as scum argument makes a lot less sense if KJ and Vez are buddies together.
Accept (3): osieorb18, Grapefruit21, Vaimes
Reject (2): vezokpiraka, killjoy
Not voting (2): emcee_mikey, Wuffles_II
It is now Mission Phase 4.1.
vezokpiraka, Osieorb18, Grapefruit21, and Vaimes have until 11:59 Eastern time on July 18th to vote pass or fail on the mission.
You may continue posting.
emcee_mikey and Wuffles_II have been prodded.
Touche.
Do you think Vez voting no means anything?
Hard to evaluate votes when you barely have a grasp on anyone's alignment. Killjoy and vezok were the most widely townread, and here we are now.
vezok's assertion that literally all the spies are on the mission is kinda out there. I don't know what he means by "fool us" in this context - bluffing? reverse psychology?
I'm swishing this post around in my head, and thinking that the last line sounds like scum complaining because there's only one spy on the mission.
It doesn't make much sense as a town thought. If we're going to lose, of course I don't condone gamethrowing, but I'd much rather it happen sooner rather than dragging it out.
See how they actually do it, what the winrate is for town and scum, what works and what doesn't, how motivation is maintained, blah blah blah.
Posting vote counts for myself.
Game Actions
Proposal 1.1 by vezokpiraka was accepted.
vezokpiraka, Emcee_Mikey
Accept (6): vezokpiraka, Emcee_Mikey, Osieorb18, Killjoy, Grapefruit21, Wuffles_II
Reject (1): Vaimes
Proposal 2.1 by Emcee_Mikey was rejected.
Emcee_Mikey, Killjoy, Wuffles_II
Accept (2): Emcee_Mikey, Wuffles_II
Reject (5): vezokpiraka, osieorb18, killjoy, Grapefruit21, Vaimes
Proposal 2.2 by osieorb18 was accepted.
vezokpiraka, osieorb18, Killjoy
Accept (6): vezokpiraka, osieorb18, Killjoy, Grapefruit21, Vaimes, Wuffles_II
Reject (1): Emcee_Mikey
Proposal 3.1 by Killjoy has been accepted.
Killjoy, Vezokpiraka, Vaimes
Accept (4): vezokpiraka, Killjoy, Vaimes, Wuffles_II
Reject (2): Osieorb18, Grapefruit21
Not voting (1): Emcee_Mikey
Proposal 4.1 has been accepted.
Accept (3): osieorb18, Grapefruit21, Vaimes
Reject (2): vezokpiraka, killjoy
Not voting (2): emcee_mikey, Wuffles_II
So 2.1 is kind of a massive wrench in my worldview. I need to look back and see how mikey was perceived at the time. Because him nominating his two buddies and then Wuffles voting for it doesn't strike me as super likely. Apart from that everything looks like it makes sense in the KJ is scum trying to make Vaimes his fall guy world.
Osie voting yes to proposal 4 makes me feel a bit better about him since it only got 3 yes votes. If it was a fail scum would have piled onto it. No reason not to. Doesn't clear him, but is a point in his favor. It's even more assurance that Vaimes is lock town at this point. Just wish I could wrap my head around Vez at this point. Still haven't had time to dig into Osie's big Vez post. Work isn't kind to slow methodical cross referencing.
Keep saying good things.
Occasionally I'm not terrible at games.
I've made my peace losing to you at this point and once I read Osie's wall I'll make it with losing to Vez. Not looking forward to the Osie/Wuffles coinflip though.
Silver, I'm super sorry for my seeming checked-outedness this game.
Okay, so, here are my thoughts on the worlds I am imagining currently.
Let me think through the possibilities here:
All three scum on this mission - Nah. Grapefruit isn't the kind of player that would take the everloving piss like that as scum - he's way more careful, at least from what I saw in Token mafia. And Vezok is still my top town read. Vaimes is playing really town-ishly if it's him.
Possibilities of double scum on this mission (discounting the possibility of Vezokscum - he's too transparently town for that to be a possibility and we've already lost if he's fooled us all this well for this long, imo)
Grape/Vaimes - Based on the way that the games have run so far, the likelihood is that (again, discounting Vezok) Vaimes AND Osie are scum if Killjoy is town. Like this is theoretically not zero possible, but if it's a thing, then that means two of Osie/Killjoy/Mikey are town and that just doesn't seem likely.
Grape/Osie - This one's a possibility. Grape is taking a huge risk by bringing Osie onto the team, as he is by far the player on the mission team that's garnered the greatest likelihood of being scum this game. He could be doing the same thing Killjoy did in mission 3, which would mean he has balls the size of the Empire state building, after how much he ripped KJ apart. Unlikely.
Osie/Vaimes - I feel like these two haven't interacted much and I don't really see the world where Grape doesn't interact (either positively or negatively) with his scumteam. In token, he was constantly aware and commenting on my play, and he was totally happy to bus me if things hadn't gone exactly as well as they did. So I don't think I would have seen as little interaction between those two in the earlygame if that was the case.
Grape/Killjoy - NOT a thing. There is no reason why Grape would have gone after a scumbuddy so hard if they were W/W.
Grape/Mikey - Possible, because I don't think anyone would seriously buy an attempt at a Mikey mission at this point, with the way that Mikey's been playing.
- Grape could be trying for a win with either Osie or Vaimes. However, I don't think this is possible as (as above) an Osie/Vaimes/Grape team feels suuuper unlikely, as it would mean mikey AND Killjoy were both town, which I don't buy at this stage. And it would also mean that Grape bought ALL three scum onto this wagon, which feels unnecessary. He must have known that bringing Osie on to this mission was a massive risk - why pick Osie instead of me? That just doesn't make sense.
So I suspect that we're not going to lose the game over this mission But there is one scum laying low in this mission, and I think it's Osie by POE, if not by his OMGUS against me for calling him on his obviously fake read on ScumCeeMikey. He's telling me to get over myself, but like...I wonder why I wonder why I wonder why.
It's rare that players stick out to me so blatantly as he is as scum. And I feel like it's really weird that Osie hasn't figured that out yet, after seeing my thought processes from modding both my towngame in Arkham and my scumgame in Token.
Vaimes, looks like it's all you, m'dude.
and I don't really see the world where Grape doesn't interact (either positively or negatively) with his scumteam. In token, he was constantly aware and commenting on my play, and he was totally happy to bus me if things hadn't gone exactly as well as they did. So I don't think I would have seen as little interaction between those two in the earlygame if that was the case.
should be:
Grape/Vaimes - Based on the way that the games have run so far, the likelihood is that (again, discounting Vezok) Vaimes AND Osie are scum if Killjoy is town. Like this is theoretically not zero possible, but if it's a thing, then that means two of Osie/Killjoy/Mikey are town and that just doesn't seem likely. And I don't really see the world where Grape doesn't interact (either positively or negatively) with his scumteam. In token, he was constantly aware and commenting on my play, and he was totally happy to bus me if things hadn't gone exactly as well as they did. So I don't think I would have seen as little interaction between those two in the earlygame if that was the case.
FFFFUUU work. -_-
Mikey/Killjoy/Osie.
I swear to god, if it turns out we've just straight-up lost and I'm wrong about everything, then Ima be seriously salty, though. >_<
Pass, Pass, Pass, Pass
It is now Discussion phase 5.1.
Vaimes is the mission leader and has until 12:30 PM Eastern Time on July 21st to propose a mission team.
You may continue posting.
Yeah, no. That was me calling you out for being dishonest scum.
Sorry for doubting you grape. You really are a great player.
I'm inclined the believe the scum are KJ/mikey with someone out of Vaimes/osie as the second scum. Or maybe it's just wuffles.
Anyway Grape is confirmed town, because he could've picked a combination with another scum on it an instantly win.
I gotta reread the thread, but I'll do it later. Osie's thoughts still bug me the hell out, but he might just be a very paranoid townie.
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Check out the Shop Thread
I feel like I need to reread vezok. I think he may have fooled me.
KJ and Mikey are scum. There is one scum in Vez, Osie, Wuffles and I haven't given it any more thought yet. Gut says wuffles but idk.
Anyway I'm going to ignore everything KJ is doing today because it's wine. Just not going to read into it at all.
@Vezok I'm not a great player but thanks for that. I just got lucky here. Anyway I'm convinced Vaimes is just town here based on the way KJ handled the mission. I'm not sure what it says about Wuffles though. My initial thought was KJ didn't want to take him because he was a scum buddy but it could have been because Vaimes was an easier fall guy than Wuffles was. Regardless if you're town there is one scum in Osie/Wuffles. I'm 95% to you being a rebel here Vez but not 100% yet.
@Osie I know you're convinced that Mikey is town here but I cannot see it at this point. As mentioned earlier his refusal to vote yes or no really feels like anti spew to me. I'm completely convinced he's scum. Not to the extent I am wrt KJ but close. So talk to me about Vez/Wuffles. I know you're scum reading both but one of them is town.
@Wuffles so your read of Osie is that town!Osie should have realized you were town based on your processes this game? And that's why he's your pick for third scum?
I think Mikey has been approaching the thread organically.
Vez and Wuffles both seem to have agendas.
This is just a buzzwords filled post, How is mikey approaching the thread organically? What does that even mean?
What is my and Wuffles agenda except passing missions?
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
He has every reason to be demotivated if he's scumread town. I was too.
This is just a dismissive post asking someone to elaborate positions that they've already elaborated.
You see what I did there?
Do not discuss this replacement.
Vaimes is the mission leader and has until 12:30 PM Eastern Time on July 21st to propose a mission team.
You may continue posting.
Do not discuss this replacement.
You may continue posting.
Finally got in!!
I know someone already stole my joke, but hardclaim Merlin.
Be town or be dead bb.
Or I guess shunned, not dead.
Beautiful lovely Shadow, oh how I missed you.
So all I have to do is solve the one of Vez/Osie/Vaimes/grape that is the last scum.
Excellent.
I think vezok gets a + for going against the last mission. He was widely townread, and going against the grain here as a spy would be a weird path to take instead of just voting yes and trying to squeeze himself onto the last mission.
By going aganst a mission that doesn't even secure a town win, he just makes it harder for himself to end up on the last mission.