anyway, my treatment of DV is going to be on the snarky side since I hate butting heads with people over their read of me, which is why I'm trying to end this back-and-forth
Also this is a complete mischaracterization of what is going on.
At this point we are butting heads over your reads on me, and your attacks on others as well. You've basically said in this post, you hate defending yourself, because anyone who attacks you has a read on you yes? Yet, you've spent half the thread defending yourself, and even gone as far as to say you were not flailing you were defending yourself.
This doesn't track at all.
You've so far.
Attempted to town read me(After admitting you don't know how to read me and you've attempted to skim over this question now as well.) Attacked people slightly at random. "Defended" yourself from attacks on yourself. Used logical fallacies to paint someone attacking you in a negative light. Attempted to belittle the other person attacking you. Refused to back up your negative attacks, but also refused to admit any wrong doing. Started voting a player for god knows what reason. And now said you don't want to "Butt heads over reads on yourself". Despite doing so already.
I think his mindset is coming from a town perspective. I know I'm town and I know I'm thinking that way, so if Osie is thinking almost identically to me, that probabally means he is town.
So here, we disagree. I accept this answer, even if I think you're wrong in your analysis/perception. @Osie this is an example of the difference between wrong and scum, if that's desired/needed.
I don't see why scum would both with a complete list. Where is the scum mindset for that. I see more of a town mindset in that of trying to keep everyone in mind in the game.
Scum mindset is attempting to provide information to look towny. Generating reads, giving people things to comment on. If they're going to supply a list at all, at that point in the game, how different is an incomplete list from a complete one, when you can just write half the thread off as "I need more information?"
It bothers me that you didn't think that far here. From what I can remember, you know well enough to not have to imply that question.
Vaimes 129
I see what you're trying to argue.
I just don't see it as a scum tell. I guess to me, "Busy work" in less than 100 posts strikes me as a strange thing to be compelled to do as scum. I just don't see the gains of doing it so early. If we were a while into day one. I think I'd agree with you. But the context of it being so early, it just seems as town to me.
I think you might be right here. Kazin's little blip in for the shade slightly pinged me from this. I'm going to be wary of Vaimes for the rest of the game for more of these painting in negative light attacks.
@Vaimes can you explain what you mean by the GJ thing. I just don't get what you mean that they are similar at all.
I think you might be right here. Kazin's little blip in for the shade slightly pinged me from this. I'm going to be wary of Vaimes for the rest of the game for more of these painting in negative light attacks.
@Vaimes can you explain what you mean by the GJ thing. I just don't get what you mean that they are similar at all.
let me be mean for a second: oh my god shut UP I am TOWNREADING you you complete MONKEY
and now nice Vaimes
DV, based on what I can remember of our past games together, you tend to tunnel me for reasons I really don't care about and needle me into explaining literally every single little micro action I've taken in the game, which is exhausting and annoying.
Honestly, the only game I can recall with clarity is whatever it was when you were a Neutral, you tunneled me D1, I defended you, we started townreading each other, and then you fulfilled your wincon the following Night.
So like...forgive me if I'm short with you, because the way you're attacking me is super obnoxious. You're seeing attacks/shade towards you when I've never had any intention of making you look bad, and talking to you is wearing me out.
osie, none of your points make me scum. They’re either town-indicative for me or NAI. Why do my posts need to be useful during RVS?
You observed F&E so I have a pretty hard time believing your light scumread.
-
DV, where did you pull that dichotomy from?
That's fair. You were scummy as town in F&E too. It's still early. We'll see. I guess I just don't trust you right now. Like, I suppose it's not quite fair to say that you're not posting useful posts. I think my point would be expressed clearer as "At the moment, I think your posts have an air of being intentionally over-friendly and useless."
You don't trust him right now? Who, pray tell, do you trust right now? I get the trying to get ready early, from you at least, but saying you don't trust him is weird.
I'm getting more town feels from DV, you, Fuwa, Grapefruit, and Vezok (though I do want to hear him your question of where those stats are from) at the moment. So I trust you more than I trust Vaimes or anyone else who isn't pinging town for me. Vaimes's indignation seems like it could be real though.
DV Tom/GJ have already done this this game. You don't get to make vague statements that other people can then fill in their own thoughts to support. Its a bastard way of arguing and playing this game.
I agree, but I also tend to do this a lot as well, but thats mostly because im always afraid to push my leads
if you keep expecting, legit answers from Tom, you will be solely disappointed...
Osie has a good strat for tom, "Scum read him until proven otherwise."
also I agree on GJ...
Vez, GJ, and Vaimes, seem like good focuses for now
Oh I'll also explain this now.
Both Osie and Vaimes tried to townie point/townie read me page one with the way I was posting.
Yeah that started as a joke, but I do kinda get the sense that you are not as frustrated with this game as you've been. Maybe that's a false positive, but I like it as a tell.
It reads like busy work trying to look like he is town doing some hunting.
That would be some impressively lame scum play. I'm not THAT oblivious. I just like putting reads out there early. It's a thing I do, as either alignment. Helps me to stay focused on the game, because I've spent the time investment early on to develop thoughts.
if you keep expecting, legit answers from Tom, you will be solely disappointed...
Osie has a good strat for tom, "Scum read him until proven otherwise."
also I agree on GJ...
Vez, GJ, and Vaimes, seem like good focuses for now
Lastwhisper is a sheep. He is either town, or exactly wolves with DV.
Lastwhisper is a filthy casual and we mislynch him Day 1 without giving more thought into things over my dead body.
Even if I'm scum its never faux. Its also interesting that you ignore mentioning Vaimes at all.
I mention him twice, by name.
I vaguely feel like we've done this dance before. When was the last time we played together?
Pirates.
You were right there though.
You didn't really mention any read on him though. You just said his name twice.
The read is implicit. I said one of the three is scum, and I suggested it's you, sooooo....
You're more snarky this game.
I'm uncertain what that means. You could have simply mentioned me which would have left to implicit reads. But you took to mentioning Dan and myself, indicating Vaimes is the weakest read you have. Yet you call me scum for doing ??? I'm not really for sure. And then end up on a town read of Vaimes, because? I'm not really sure.
you yelled at and lectured him a bit for making empty attacks, when you've been pushing an empty scumread on me all the while
and I wanted to know why you were yelling at him for making empty attacks when, from my pov, you were also making an empty attack
"this is wolfy" and "vaimes is scum" are about equally attack-y and equally empty
You misunderstood my post/reason for disliking what Tom and GJ are doing.
My attack on you largely had to do with me disliking your attempted town read on me. It progressed from there. Maybe weak, but I had my reasoning.
When GJ says "X is wolfy" Its a strange thing yes? First, its an attack on a player, but it doesn't explain why they think that. Its largely inviting me to project, why I feel that way onto his post. I now read through Osie's post and project why I think it is scummy or not. Its particularly annoying to me, because scum get away with posting this, and sometimes larger cases come out of it from someone else that the scum sort of goaded into doing. Its also the lowest common denominator of arguing. I can't argue with someone that says, "This post is wolfy". All I can say is "No it is not." And move on. It doesn't give me any insight into why a person is thinking that way, or their thought progression. Or anything really. Its just cheap, lazy and reductive.
I don't think you stated the reasoning for your scumread on me at that time, aside from the "god are scumtells going to be gifted to me this early" which I didn't at all think you were just going to take and run with.
Also I still think the dichotomy thing is nonsense vOv
It doesn’t ping me as scum/intentionally wrong coming from vezok.
I don’t really think you’re scum here, and it’s possible I misread your post considering I’m skimming at work. But some gaps and statements jumped out at me and I’d like for you to clarify them, once I get the chance to sit down.
I see scum have day chat and you need to now phone it in on post 109 already.
It doesn’t ping me as scum/intentionally wrong coming from vezok.
I don’t really think you’re scum here, and it’s possible I misread your post considering I’m skimming at work. But some gaps and statements jumped out at me and I’d like for you to clarify them, once I get the chance to sit down.
I see scum have day chat and you need to now phone it in on post 109 already.
I don't really like citing a mindmeld as a reason to townread DV. You're completely ignoring that he hasn't given any reasons (and I find it weird to mindmeld the result of the read rather than the process, which is way more important) and that he hasn't voted me despite his push.
Null explanations are weird but whatever.
I don't get the impression that GJ is cozying up to anyone, given that he's been gone a while and is probably just trying to be sociable.
kpaca also hasn't played in a while, and it ~slightly pings me that he could be hiding behind a "wow mafia sure has changed since I stopped playing" facade, but gun to head he's a townlean rather than a scumlean.
I'm not going to give a read on tom, but yeah, he's kinda disengaged so far, and his towncore looks like a pocket.
I thought Wuffles' pocket thing at me was +town. It would be awfully cheeky coming from a scum player, and Wuffles doesn't strike me as being that flavor of cheekiness.
Those are both fair points on DV. I'm seeing him as town just from a sense of how relaxed he is, which could certainly be wrong. But at this point (read up to #123) I think he's responding naturally from what I've seen so far.
You and others don't seem to notice the distinction between Null and Absent. Null doesn't mean to me that I don't have ANY read on them. It means that I'm in the middle. In this case I didn't have as much of a read as I might otherwise, but I still felt a little bit of something.
GJ feels... lazy I think is the best word. Like someone who is choosing to make easy posts. And I don't like that. He's too good a player for that.
Yeah, kpaca rose for me significantly after he responded. I have him at null now, but I'm anticipating that he's going to post something wonderful that makes me townread him.
Tom's towncore felt like a joke if he's town, and a complex move that raises some questions if he's scum. I agree; he feels detached. But he feels detached a lot of the time. It's one of the things that makes him hard to read as either alignment. I'm still hesitant on putting him anywhere other than scumlean.
So here, we disagree. I accept this answer, even if I think you're wrong in your analysis/perception. @Osie this is an example of the difference between wrong and scum, if that's desired/needed.
Scum mindset is attempting to provide information to look towny. Generating reads, giving people things to comment on. If they're going to supply a list at all, at that point in the game, how different is an incomplete list from a complete one, when you can just write half the thread off as "I need more information?"
You and GJ... Do you think I don't KNOW that a readlist as early as I posted it looks like busywork, inherently scummy? I'm not an idiot. I've posted a readlist early game after game after game because it's a thing I choose to do to keep myself on track. I posted Dumbledore because of a great quote from that series:
"Dark times lie ahead of us and there will be a time when we must choose between what is easy and what is right."
If a readlist triggers scum into trying for what the see as an easy push on me, all the better. If a readlist triggers scum into posting arrogant, patronizing garbage, then that's something people can pick up on, and scumread those players for that.
for hitting tons of scum pings. Easy pushes, patronizing coaching, casual buddying, answering questions intended for others...
The only town pings I'm really getting are from question complexity in a couple posts and not only is there not even that much of that, but that's a pretty weak tell in the face of things.
Gut shot reads: g_d feels the towniest; best reasoning. D_V is the scum, pushing Vaimes because he thinks he can get away with it. Smells like faux righteous indignation.
Can you elaborate on this? Because I'm like 75% sure at this point that DV and Vaimes are both town. And ganderin_dan is the scummiest player in the thread by a wide margin.
for hitting tons of scum pings. Easy pushes, patronizing coaching, casual buddying, answering questions intended for others...
The only town pings I'm really getting are from question complexity in a couple posts and not only is there not even that much of that, but that's a pretty weak tell in the face of things.
Do you have some sort of scum/town attribute rating system lol? It’s like you’re playing FIFA.
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I'm generally trying to avoid reading ahead, but GJ feels like he's phoning it in with shade and shallow self-aggrandisement.
Heck, I think at this point I'm comfortable enough with Vaimes's indignation (though this might change) that I'll:
Vote GJ
That fence must not be very pointy. You seem quite comfortable on it, even left one leg on the other side in case you need to hop off of GJ's lawn.
How is this fencesitting? He changes his mind, explains why, and votes into his reasoning. Seems like you were trying to find an easy target.
Vote ganderin dan
@Osie I mean I understood your reads list, but didn't lead me to thinking you were taking that enough to trust others.
DV vs. Vaimes is very TvT, so many words to say so little, but passioned and reasoned the entire time. And even a reasonable conclusion at the end that both players settled to. GJs somewhere around whatever for me still, I don't see much to really pull either way yet.
Someone want to message Tom that the game started?
@osie how do you feel about GJ after the exchange he and I had?
GJ is my second lowest read right now after Dan. But it's also a lighter read. If GJ turns around and starts posting like town, I'd push him up to null pretty quickly. I wouldn't say that about Dan, since he's hitting a lot more scum points and few to no town points.
It wasn't an attack. It was an observation that needs explaining.
And instead you went "fallacy!" and that was it.
Personally, I think it's stupid. If someone does something hypocritical, of course they're going to get asked why.
I don't care anymore
DV 136
Also this is a complete mischaracterization of what is going on.
At this point we are butting heads over your reads on me, and your attacks on others as well. You've basically said in this post, you hate defending yourself, because anyone who attacks you has a read on you yes? Yet, you've spent half the thread defending yourself, and even gone as far as to say you were not flailing you were defending yourself.
This doesn't track at all.
You've so far.
Attempted to town read me(After admitting you don't know how to read me and you've attempted to skim over this question now as well.) Attacked people slightly at random. "Defended" yourself from attacks on yourself. Used logical fallacies to paint someone attacking you in a negative light. Attempted to belittle the other person attacking you. Refused to back up your negative attacks, but also refused to admit any wrong doing. Started voting a player for god knows what reason. And now said you don't want to "Butt heads over reads on yourself". Despite doing so already.
Neat.
Asking is fine.
That isn't what you did. Don't lie when I can quote!
This doesn't read that way at all. This reads as you invalidating my attack on you, and GJ in the same breath.
You also said I was making stuff up.
You still have yet to address that or defend that idea in any way.
I'm sorry you interpreted it that way. I just wanted to know how they were different. That's all.
I literally just answered that question. You used words in ways that make no sense to me.
I see what you're trying to argue.
I just don't see it as a scum tell. I guess to me, "Busy work" in less than 100 posts strikes me as a strange thing to be compelled to do as scum. I just don't see the gains of doing it so early. If we were a while into day one. I think I'd agree with you. But the context of it being so early, it just seems as town to me.
I vaguely feel like we've done this dance before. When was the last time we played together?
I think you might be right here. Kazin's little blip in for the shade slightly pinged me from this. I'm going to be wary of Vaimes for the rest of the game for more of these painting in negative light attacks.
@Vaimes can you explain what you mean by the GJ thing. I just don't get what you mean that they are similar at all.
and now nice Vaimes
DV, based on what I can remember of our past games together, you tend to tunnel me for reasons I really don't care about and needle me into explaining literally every single little micro action I've taken in the game, which is exhausting and annoying.
Honestly, the only game I can recall with clarity is whatever it was when you were a Neutral, you tunneled me D1, I defended you, we started townreading each other, and then you fulfilled your wincon the following Night.
So like...forgive me if I'm short with you, because the way you're attacking me is super obnoxious. You're seeing attacks/shade towards you when I've never had any intention of making you look bad, and talking to you is wearing me out.
Pirates.
You were right there though.
You didn't really mention any read on him though. You just said his name twice.
I'm getting more town feels from DV, you, Fuwa, Grapefruit, and Vezok (though I do want to hear him your question of where those stats are from) at the moment. So I trust you more than I trust Vaimes or anyone else who isn't pinging town for me. Vaimes's indignation seems like it could be real though.
you yelled at and lectured him a bit for making empty attacks, when you've been pushing an empty scumread on me all the while
and I wanted to know why you were yelling at him for making empty attacks when, from my pov, you were also making an empty attack
"this is wolfy" and "vaimes is scum" are about equally attack-y and equally empty
But Tom and GJ don't have the experience barrier.
Yeah that started as a joke, but I do kinda get the sense that you are not as frustrated with this game as you've been. Maybe that's a false positive, but I like it as a tell.
You think I'm scummy as town, but you have me as your strongest scumlean? I figure I should end up somewhere in your nulls.
That would be some impressively lame scum play. I'm not THAT oblivious. I just like putting reads out there early. It's a thing I do, as either alignment. Helps me to stay focused on the game, because I've spent the time investment early on to develop thoughts.
Lastwhisper is a filthy casual and we mislynch him Day 1 without giving more thought into things over my dead body.
And here.
You're more snarky this game.
I'm uncertain what that means. You could have simply mentioned me which would have left to implicit reads. But you took to mentioning Dan and myself, indicating Vaimes is the weakest read you have. Yet you call me scum for doing ??? I'm not really for sure. And then end up on a town read of Vaimes, because? I'm not really sure.
You misunderstood my post/reason for disliking what Tom and GJ are doing.
My attack on you largely had to do with me disliking your attempted town read on me. It progressed from there. Maybe weak, but I had my reasoning.
When GJ says "X is wolfy" Its a strange thing yes? First, its an attack on a player, but it doesn't explain why they think that. Its largely inviting me to project, why I feel that way onto his post. I now read through Osie's post and project why I think it is scummy or not. Its particularly annoying to me, because scum get away with posting this, and sometimes larger cases come out of it from someone else that the scum sort of goaded into doing. Its also the lowest common denominator of arguing. I can't argue with someone that says, "This post is wolfy". All I can say is "No it is not." And move on. It doesn't give me any insight into why a person is thinking that way, or their thought progression. Or anything really. Its just cheap, lazy and reductive.
I don't think you stated the reasoning for your scumread on me at that time, aside from the "god are scumtells going to be gifted to me this early" which I didn't at all think you were just going to take and run with.
Also I still think the dichotomy thing is nonsense vOv
This feels cheap. Stop it.
The paranoid person in me tells me you did this on purpose, however it seems like a strange play to make for just some slight town points from me.
What is your current GJ read please.
someone else take tom's bait
I'm generally trying to avoid reading ahead, but GJ feels like he's phoning it in with shade and shallow self-aggrandisement.
Heck, I think at this point I'm comfortable enough with Vaimes's indignation (though this might change) that I'll:
Vote GJ
You're cheap.
Also don't vote town.
WHY'D YOU VOTE VAIMES
Those are both fair points on DV. I'm seeing him as town just from a sense of how relaxed he is, which could certainly be wrong. But at this point (read up to #123) I think he's responding naturally from what I've seen so far.
You and others don't seem to notice the distinction between Null and Absent. Null doesn't mean to me that I don't have ANY read on them. It means that I'm in the middle. In this case I didn't have as much of a read as I might otherwise, but I still felt a little bit of something.
GJ feels... lazy I think is the best word. Like someone who is choosing to make easy posts. And I don't like that. He's too good a player for that.
Yeah, kpaca rose for me significantly after he responded. I have him at null now, but I'm anticipating that he's going to post something wonderful that makes me townread him.
Tom's towncore felt like a joke if he's town, and a complex move that raises some questions if he's scum. I agree; he feels detached. But he feels detached a lot of the time. It's one of the things that makes him hard to read as either alignment. I'm still hesitant on putting him anywhere other than scumlean.
Wuffles strikes me as being pretty damn cheeky.
That fence must not be very pointy. You seem quite comfortable on it, even left one leg on the other side in case you need to hop off of GJ's lawn.
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Or just join me in voting for Osie, because that seems good.
Why?
They are from the same site. Jury's still out on him for me (null atm) but if he decides to put in the effort, I'll townread him.
Unvote
I don't think Vaimes is a great place to head right now though.
You and GJ... Do you think I don't KNOW that a readlist as early as I posted it looks like busywork, inherently scummy? I'm not an idiot. I've posted a readlist early game after game after game because it's a thing I choose to do to keep myself on track. I posted Dumbledore because of a great quote from that series:
"Dark times lie ahead of us and there will be a time when we must choose between what is easy and what is right."
If a readlist triggers scum into trying for what the see as an easy push on me, all the better. If a readlist triggers scum into posting arrogant, patronizing garbage, then that's something people can pick up on, and scumread those players for that.
for hitting tons of scum pings. Easy pushes, patronizing coaching, casual buddying, answering questions intended for others...
The only town pings I'm really getting are from question complexity in a couple posts and not only is there not even that much of that, but that's a pretty weak tell in the face of things.
Can you elaborate on this? Because I'm like 75% sure at this point that DV and Vaimes are both town. And ganderin_dan is the scummiest player in the thread by a wide margin.
Vaimes town. Gj no idea. Dv prob town, but I'm not sure.
I'm not voting osie. He's probably my strongest town read.
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How is this fencesitting? He changes his mind, explains why, and votes into his reasoning. Seems like you were trying to find an easy target.
Vote ganderin dan
@Osie I mean I understood your reads list, but didn't lead me to thinking you were taking that enough to trust others.
DV vs. Vaimes is very TvT, so many words to say so little, but passioned and reasoned the entire time. And even a reasonable conclusion at the end that both players settled to. GJs somewhere around whatever for me still, I don't see much to really pull either way yet.
Someone want to message Tom that the game started?
I literally just got told what pocketing was yesterday and i have been playing for like.. years.
vote tom
LET THE TUNNELING BEGIN
I agree with this statement wholeheartedly and I think scum DV is significantly less likely to say this than town DV.
GJ is my second lowest read right now after Dan. But it's also a lighter read. If GJ turns around and starts posting like town, I'd push him up to null pretty quickly. I wouldn't say that about Dan, since he's hitting a lot more scum points and few to no town points.