As it is impossible for scum to lose since they now control the lynch with no abilities present to prevent them from removing the remaining two town...
Scum has won the game. Congratulations, Grapefruit21 and Wuffles_II.
Scum Chat (QT) can be found here.
Spec Chat (Discord) can be found here.
Good game, guys. Grapefruit and Wuffles did a fantastic job with their gambit. I nearly screwed it all up by switching them when I was noting down the actions, but that was fixed simply enough.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
GG everyone. First off Wuffles was awesome and the no kill was entirely his idea and deserves full credit for that. Second Ruma put me in a shockingly awesome position for being as busy as he was before he left. I walked into a bunch of town reads when my slot had 16 combined posts D1. Enough town reads that I garnered a Doc protect and a watch. Which is nuts. So props to Ruma for that. Anyway I thought the town did a decent job overall. Especially KJ who I thought was exceptionally townie on tone but fell into the not thinking mechanics through to their logical conclusion trap. If I'd been town I'd have seen the same thing tom did about voting Vezo first, but as scum I was sitting there thinking "man I wish I'd made that case against Vezok". We definitely thought we'd need your vote on tom to win the game.
Wait so Wuffles did Target me? So last should have seen that?
I targeted you but apparently Osie made a transcribing error and had wuffles carry out the action intially. Which was almost disastrous for us. Thankfully it was corrected quickly. And I chose you because once I found out tokens were refunded you would have been town!me's target. And since we were not killing I wanted to play it the way town me would.
On that thanks wuffles for talking me into the no kill N1. I thought we'd be better off putting the game into a Mylo but you were right on how much I'd be cleared as a JK who was town read if we didn't kill.
Weirdly if you guys'd listened to the hydra you'd have had us cold. KK was completely correct in their read and was on me the whole time.
I'm glad it was the right decision not to shoot, though. This setup felt like big gambits were really rewarded since there wasn't many ways mechanically that we could be discovered.
Last and Tom were correctly on me almost all day 1.
Killjoy we felt was the most townie of all - his analysis was great - he just happened to Townread me with vezok all of day 1 and didn't ever really question those reads. We were super stoked when his going after Tom put him in the firing line instead of me.
Grape, you were such a joy to play with. We bounced off each other super well and 10/10 would scum slam again. There's been a lot of needless aggressiveness on mtgs mafia games lately and playing with you was just a treat and a privilege. <3
No Killing in this setup is pretty much guaranteed a win. It's probably the worst strategy you can employ after a day 1 no lynch, but it worked out for you.
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Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy. Check out the Shop Thread
And PSA: Voting in LyLo with weeks until the deadline is a the most moronic thing you could do.
I was skirting with the idea that grape might be scum who no killed, but I was putting tom as his partner. Maybe after a few days I would've figured it out, but tom decided to be an hero.
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Weirdly if you guys'd listened to the hydra you'd have had us cold. KK was completely correct in their read and was on me the whole time.
I'm glad it was the right decision not to shoot, though. This setup felt like big gambits were really rewarded since there wasn't many ways mechanically that we could be discovered.
Last and Tom were correctly on me almost all day 1.
Killjoy we felt was the most townie of all - his analysis was great - he just happened to Townread me with vezok all of day 1 and didn't ever really question those reads. We were super stoked when his going after Tom put him in the firing line instead of me.
Grape, you were such a joy to play with. We bounced off each other super well and 10/10 would scum slam again. There's been a lot of needless aggressiveness on mtgs mafia games lately and playing with you was just a treat and a privilege. <3
sure but his posts were all ass... shouldve kept on ur ass when you claimed messenger and didnt message... haha
Ohhh thing I forgot to mention earlier I hated my level of activity this game. I felt awful not managing to check back in on D1 and only making 8 posts.
After that I was stuck in a combination of being busy in real life leading to perpetual catchup mode and being happy with the gamestate. I knew town!me wouldn't just do nothing but I also didn't want to really spark massive reevaluations.
Anyway I hate being low effort as either alignment and am going to really try to not make my post count difference as drastic as town vs scum. But real life has the final say.
On the no kill: I was very nervous about passing up on a kill and spent a long time running through various scenarios of peoples actions for N1. I felt I was unlikely to be tracked and that tom was unlikely to be Doc'd but I had concerns about him being BP and thought someone (forget who without checking) was decent to watch him so I reluctantly went along with the plan thinking in the back of my head that it would lead to me hard bussing Wuffles due to his early messanger claim. But I got doc'd and it worked out better than I ever could have hoped.
Ohhh and that messanger claim gave me some angst this game. Because it locked me into either hard bussing him or immediately getting lynched when he flipped. The motivator claim would have as well for basically the same reasons to be fair though.
Speaking of my two biggest pieces of feedback the refunding of tokens made this game very different. If they weren't my blocking KJ would have recived much more scrutiny. The flipside is it makes the already super weak for scum motivator/RB out and out awful. It's town side is verifiable so denying that was great because we couldn't have beaten a second IC, but we couldn't claim it ever and the ability was pretty weak with the token refund. With the vacant role being the also verifiable baker we were forced to clean win with us being tied to each other mechanically or bus at time of claims. And Wisp tracking Wuffles became a crisis for that reason. There was 0 reason to not fire a message night one unless you weren't the messanger.
Day 1 Tom knew wuffles was scum, Kami was town, and kj was bad town shouldn't have let myself get pressured into voting before reread.
Who knows if I would have got there but lynching wuffles first would have outed grape so that would have done it
Gg scum. Wuffles was obvious all along but fooled again by grape and extremely suboptimal role usage
Speaking of my two biggest pieces of feedback the refunding of tokens made this game very different.
Yeah, I'd do that differently in hindsight. In larger games I was used to it due to how I was thinking of the roles, but I'm thinking even then it might be reasonable to say that it does not get refunded.
Speaking of my two biggest pieces of feedback the refunding of tokens made this game very different.
Yeah, I'd do that differently in hindsight. In larger games I was used to it due to how I was thinking of the roles, but I'm thinking even then it might be reasonable to say that it does not get refunded.
I get doing so because having your one time action zapped out of existence sucks and it was definitely a buff to the jailor allowing me to use it more liberally. But it makes the motivator/RB rough. That role basically is either an IC or a 1 for 1 counter claim that might spike a second useful ability. As scum it's basically either 1 for 1 cc someone or claim the unused role and hope it's unverifiable or you can force through a buddy deal.
This setup is fascinating because the numbers are rough for town but they have so much power. Thief is basically vanilla (everyone except maybe BP should fire N1) redirect is powerful but requires using the unused role to claim. RB is weak if it refunds very strong if it doesn't and also requires the unused to claim. So many of the scum halves notifying their targets makes surviving claims in this setup very tricky.
Ninja and strongman are unambiguously awesome for scum. As is jailer (probably the best role to random as scum). Basically this setup is incredibly swingy and the amount of information given out makes some randoms almost impossible for scum. Imagine them getting RB, Redirect, and unused role being baker. Almost leveraged into making 1 for 1 plays by the setup there.
Anyway really cool idea and I really enjoyed the game but probably not remotely balanced. I think this game was though and I had a lot of fun. Thanks everyone.
Thief is basically vanilla (everyone except maybe BP should fire N1) redirect is powerful but requires using the unused role to claim.
Thief prioritizes higher in NAR usually. So they can steal the role before the other person uses it, essentially roleblocking that person. The baker works around that by giving another item to steal first.
Day 1 Tom knew wuffles was scum, Kami was town, and kj was bad town shouldn't have let myself get pressured into voting before reread.
Who knows if I would have got there but lynching wuffles first would have outed grape so that would have done it
Gg scum. Wuffles was obvious all along but fooled again by grape and extremely suboptimal role usage
Fortunately you didn't manage to convince vezok or KJ of that fact.
I think if you'd avoided trying for the speedlynch so early I wouldnt have really known what to do with myself this game tbh. You gave me a person to dive all in on which is probably the main reason why I was so stubbornly Townread by KJ and Vezok D1, also probs why you weren't able to get me lynched. I legitimately would have gone after you in the same way as town or scum this game because speedlynching someone just made no sense to me from a town perspective especially when there wasn't time for any reads to have possibly developed.
Weirdly if you guys'd listened to the hydra you'd have had us cold. KK was completely correct in their read and was on me the whole time.
I'm glad it was the right decision not to shoot, though. This setup felt like big gambits were really rewarded since there wasn't many ways mechanically that we could be discovered.
Last and Tom were correctly on me almost all day 1.
Killjoy we felt was the most townie of all - his analysis was great - he just happened to Townread me with vezok all of day 1 and didn't ever really question those reads. We were super stoked when his going after Tom put him in the firing line instead of me.
Grape, you were such a joy to play with. We bounced off each other super well and 10/10 would scum slam again. There's been a lot of needless aggressiveness on mtgs mafia games lately and playing with you was just a treat and a privilege. <3
sure but his posts were all ass... shouldve kept on ur ass when you claimed messenger and didnt message... haha
LOL
When Kami and I were talking about this, I was pushing super hard on Wuffles day 1. Our posts became none existent because of offline stuff and both of had talked and just assumed the other was somewhat making posts on it. Everything about the behavior was typical "sh!t stirring" that I would have wanted to call out hard core as Scummy... I feel kinda good in the fact that my day 1 hard reads on Scum in both games I've played on this site have been spot on. I gotta figure out a way to word my arguments better cause this is the second game where I pushed hard on someone only to get it overturned by everyone else later going: "Naah... There's no way this is Scum" only to be vindicated after a loss. Well done Wuffles/Grape. Good on you guys! Sad it ended so quickly, but it was fun none the less.
- Kazin
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Science.
Not voting: Killjoy, vezokpiraka
Killjoy has been lynched. He was Town Baker.
As it is impossible for scum to lose since they now control the lynch with no abilities present to prevent them from removing the remaining two town...
Scum has won the game. Congratulations, Grapefruit21 and Wuffles_II.
Roles:
1. KamikazeKazin (Town Bulletproof)
3. tomsloger (Town Watcher)
4. Vezokpiraka (Town Doctor)
6. Killjoy (Town Baker)
7. Lastwhisper (Town Tracker)
2. Wuffles_II (Scum Jailkeeper)
5.
RumanshiGrapefruit21 (Scum Roleblocker)Scum Chat (QT) can be found here.
Spec Chat (Discord) can be found here.
Good game, guys. Grapefruit and Wuffles did a fantastic job with their gambit. I nearly screwed it all up by switching them when I was noting down the actions, but that was fixed simply enough.
#feelsbad
No, scum share a pool of their tokens. Grape was the one who did the jailkeeping.
I targeted you but apparently Osie made a transcribing error and had wuffles carry out the action intially. Which was almost disastrous for us. Thankfully it was corrected quickly. And I chose you because once I found out tokens were refunded you would have been town!me's target. And since we were not killing I wanted to play it the way town me would.
On that thanks wuffles for talking me into the no kill N1. I thought we'd be better off putting the game into a Mylo but you were right on how much I'd be cleared as a JK who was town read if we didn't kill.
I'm glad it was the right decision not to shoot, though. This setup felt like big gambits were really rewarded since there wasn't many ways mechanically that we could be discovered.
Last and Tom were correctly on me almost all day 1.
Killjoy we felt was the most townie of all - his analysis was great - he just happened to Townread me with vezok all of day 1 and didn't ever really question those reads. We were super stoked when his going after Tom put him in the firing line instead of me.
Grape, you were such a joy to play with. We bounced off each other super well and 10/10 would scum slam again. There's been a lot of needless aggressiveness on mtgs mafia games lately and playing with you was just a treat and a privilege. <3
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
I was skirting with the idea that grape might be scum who no killed, but I was putting tom as his partner. Maybe after a few days I would've figured it out, but tom decided to be an hero.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
After that I was stuck in a combination of being busy in real life leading to perpetual catchup mode and being happy with the gamestate. I knew town!me wouldn't just do nothing but I also didn't want to really spark massive reevaluations.
Anyway I hate being low effort as either alignment and am going to really try to not make my post count difference as drastic as town vs scum. But real life has the final say.
On the no kill: I was very nervous about passing up on a kill and spent a long time running through various scenarios of peoples actions for N1. I felt I was unlikely to be tracked and that tom was unlikely to be Doc'd but I had concerns about him being BP and thought someone (forget who without checking) was decent to watch him so I reluctantly went along with the plan thinking in the back of my head that it would lead to me hard bussing Wuffles due to his early messanger claim. But I got doc'd and it worked out better than I ever could have hoped.
Ohhh and that messanger claim gave me some angst this game. Because it locked me into either hard bussing him or immediately getting lynched when he flipped. The motivator claim would have as well for basically the same reasons to be fair though.
Speaking of my two biggest pieces of feedback the refunding of tokens made this game very different. If they weren't my blocking KJ would have recived much more scrutiny. The flipside is it makes the already super weak for scum motivator/RB out and out awful. It's town side is verifiable so denying that was great because we couldn't have beaten a second IC, but we couldn't claim it ever and the ability was pretty weak with the token refund. With the vacant role being the also verifiable baker we were forced to clean win with us being tied to each other mechanically or bus at time of claims. And Wisp tracking Wuffles became a crisis for that reason. There was 0 reason to not fire a message night one unless you weren't the messanger.
Day 1 Tom knew wuffles was scum, Kami was town, and kj was bad town shouldn't have let myself get pressured into voting before reread.
Who knows if I would have got there but lynching wuffles first would have outed grape so that would have done it
Gg scum. Wuffles was obvious all along but fooled again by grape and extremely suboptimal role usage
Yeah, I'd do that differently in hindsight. In larger games I was used to it due to how I was thinking of the roles, but I'm thinking even then it might be reasonable to say that it does not get refunded.
I get doing so because having your one time action zapped out of existence sucks and it was definitely a buff to the jailor allowing me to use it more liberally. But it makes the motivator/RB rough. That role basically is either an IC or a 1 for 1 counter claim that might spike a second useful ability. As scum it's basically either 1 for 1 cc someone or claim the unused role and hope it's unverifiable or you can force through a buddy deal.
This setup is fascinating because the numbers are rough for town but they have so much power. Thief is basically vanilla (everyone except maybe BP should fire N1) redirect is powerful but requires using the unused role to claim. RB is weak if it refunds very strong if it doesn't and also requires the unused to claim. So many of the scum halves notifying their targets makes surviving claims in this setup very tricky.
Ninja and strongman are unambiguously awesome for scum. As is jailer (probably the best role to random as scum). Basically this setup is incredibly swingy and the amount of information given out makes some randoms almost impossible for scum. Imagine them getting RB, Redirect, and unused role being baker. Almost leveraged into making 1 for 1 plays by the setup there.
Anyway really cool idea and I really enjoyed the game but probably not remotely balanced. I think this game was though and I had a lot of fun. Thanks everyone.
Thief prioritizes higher in NAR usually. So they can steal the role before the other person uses it, essentially roleblocking that person. The baker works around that by giving another item to steal first.
I think if you'd avoided trying for the speedlynch so early I wouldnt have really known what to do with myself this game tbh. You gave me a person to dive all in on which is probably the main reason why I was so stubbornly Townread by KJ and Vezok D1, also probs why you weren't able to get me lynched. I legitimately would have gone after you in the same way as town or scum this game because speedlynching someone just made no sense to me from a town perspective especially when there wasn't time for any reads to have possibly developed.
LOL
When Kami and I were talking about this, I was pushing super hard on Wuffles day 1. Our posts became none existent because of offline stuff and both of had talked and just assumed the other was somewhat making posts on it. Everything about the behavior was typical "sh!t stirring" that I would have wanted to call out hard core as Scummy... I feel kinda good in the fact that my day 1 hard reads on Scum in both games I've played on this site have been spot on. I gotta figure out a way to word my arguments better cause this is the second game where I pushed hard on someone only to get it overturned by everyone else later going: "Naah... There's no way this is Scum" only to be vindicated after a loss. Well done Wuffles/Grape. Good on you guys! Sad it ended so quickly, but it was fun none the less.
- Kazin