@Rodemy
if masons come in pairs, it'll mean t/t and t/s teams - 1 scum thrown into the mix - besides scum in their own hideout. don't see how it'll inflate the mafia or mason count.
@Grapefruit
the MO of claims is to move on to the next suspect/topic, but these covers are interfering with it. so, I do intend to ignore any claiming shenenigans. you/Mikey/Vaimes advocating for these covers though.. not quite sure how to approach it.
@Iso
ugh not another claim. I guess this is gonna be one of those games... mechanical salad.
thoughts on Mikey? he claimed Rumanshi as a partner. is it a thing, or just coincidence?
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Dbs: The setup is 3 masons who share a day chat and know each other and are confirmed town, 3 scum and 7 VTs.
There is no possibility that the masons are scum. If someone claims masons they are instantly confirmed town. Scum can only counter claim in Lylo. They don't even have to claim a partner, just say that they are a mason. In case they are scum lying, one of the real masons is enough to CC him and 1 for 1 in this setup is the worst play you can do as scum.
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I want to mention the theory is NOT trolliness = town. The theory is that chaos is beneficial for town. The trolliness is simply one method of creating chaos. There are multiple ways to create chaos, that's just the easiest and most likely to get me lynched.
Also, fyi, you can't say chaos is beneficial for town and then continue lurking. -That- is an actual disconnect.
Iso, if you somehow manage to catch the mafia at the expense of finding the Masons, the trade off is absolutely worth it, unless I’m misunderstanding you? Because what I read was “I have the ability to deduce who is what but I’m not gonna do it.”
Citing the Invitational makes no sense to me because we probably won /because/ of you. People would have been too stubborn about lynching Eco otherwise.
Rod, I don’t see the point in Ruma saying those things to me without at least somewhat accusing me of doing those things. Of course I assumed he was talking about me and my push on him.
@Dbs: The setup is 3 masons who share a day chat and know each other and are confirmed town, 3 scum and 7 VTs.
There is no possibility that the masons are scum. If someone claims masons they are instantly confirmed town. Scum can only counter claim in Lylo. They don't even have to claim a partner, just say that they are a mason. In case they are scum lying, one of the real masons is enough to CC him and 1 for 1 in this setup is the worst play you can do as scum.
The actual mason alone wouldn't be enough to counter claim. They'd need at least one more mason to confirm. That becomes a 2-1 and a less terrible play for scum? Are you taking any of the claims made up to this point with any degree of seriousness and why?
Also I took a glance at Ruma's ISO in OtG. He is visibly less interested in solving the game here, and way more antagonistic and worried about being scumread than in OtG.
So people who are using the meta from that game to justify townreading him here: I'm lost.
I apologise for my absence. I am a little more comfortable now. I had ear surgery and have been taking prescription painkillers which are a little strong. Didn't want to participate in a state where I was more likely to ruin the game than contribute. (So, rawr Osie).
On the topic of reads, Osie is never going to read me properly as they have a bias against me (A toxic personality over on MAL hehe). The problem with such an early read list, is that it can be either scum or town-lean. Thus, NAI. There is the fact that osie did not vote when he made his reads, and seemed like he was justifying the RVS on Tom. Often scum try and portray RVS as an actual read. Keep this in mind.
Anak's vote on Osie feels fluid, a solid reaction to a post he doesn't like. A scum doesn't want to mess with order, as chaos can mess them over.
Tom's logic is also sound in his following two posts.
#53 of Anak is what I was thinking. Scum Osie is plausible in my mind.
Can't make an opinion on Emcee_Mikey yet.
I don't like Osie's defensiveness over the discussion between Anak and Tom, as that's conducive. Though, defensiveness is NAI. Woo.
Osie, I was mentioning I'm around as I was going to share my thoughts later. Irritating that you thought otherwise. I'm upset with you for being upset with me.
Vezok... Why? It feels like his posts are trollier than mine on MAL. :|
Just so I don't let bias get in the way, I'm going to leave Osie for now. I don't think that Vezok is scum though, as scum need to blend in. I'm going with either tom or anak is scum, so I'll be leaving my vote on Tom for now, until I deem another player scummier than osie.
Ah, I think I have why I think Vezok is likely a town but it's not particularly substantial. It's been nagging at me, but why would scum risk claiming two players who they know aren't scum are likely to be scum? Like, if Vez had said they thought only one of the two was scum, it would make more sense.
So, if Mikey is not the bestest wolf ever, and I don't see how scum!Vezok would make a risk like that, That leaves Cantrip, Anak, Shadow and dawning on my suspicious list. If I were to list it in order of towniest to scummiest right now it would probably be:
Mikey
Vezok
Shadow
Anak
Cantrip
Dawning
__________
And here's where the problem comes in. I can't see a Cantrip / Dawning team at the moment. And I'm doubting the possibility of a scum!shadow. I've only played one game with him though, the haiku one where I replaced in. He's had experience with me playing as scum. If that's useful information. Alright, I'd like to see Dawning's opinion right now, so
@Sentenza: As much as that would amuse me, it's not the case.
I've never had an issue posting scummy posts as town. This is quite commonly known. I also have been busy so haven't had the amount of time I usually have to do my usual stirring up. This is the first time I've had some personal free time in a while. I'm also horrible with readlists, so forgive me for the bad formatting and *****ty thought processes.
[color=green]1. Dan[/color] - Town, probably. I can't see any scum intent on his posts.
[color=green]2. Ruma[/color] - Cause I know my own role, duh. This one's not hard to figure out.
[color=green]9. Sentenza[/color] - There were scum vibes out the roof, but I don't feel them anymore and Sentena has made some really valid points.
[color=red]10.[/color] Vaimes - Look, there is every chance Vaimes is town. However, I myself think he is scum. I dislike how he takes every chance to accuse any action I take as scummy, as though there is no way anything I do comes from a town point. I also am annoyed that he thinks I'm lying that I haven't been lurking, I just haven't had time to write up detailed thoughts. I've been busy. I'm not busy anymore. There's nothing counter to my belief that chaos is good for town. There are plenty of actions which can generate chaos which aren't specifically taken by me. But it doesn't matter, as if/when I am lynched, the FOS will no longer be on me, and you guys will have to infer information from my flip. Treat this read closer to a 'I don't like this mindset' rather than a 'he is 100% without a doubt, scum'.
[color=green]12. Emcee[/color] - Cause of vezok's change of target.
[color=orange]13. Killjoy[/orange] - I really want to read him as town, I do. But with everyone else scum reading me, and killjoy being the only one to consider me as a possible town candidate, it does seem a little pockety. But, paranoia.
He also posted in that game that scum are more likely to want to blend in. Here, he is FoS'ing players with strong cases on D1, which is kind of the opposite of blending in.
@Dbs: The setup is 3 masons who share a day chat and know each other and are confirmed town, 3 scum and 7 VTs.
There is no possibility that the masons are scum. If someone claims masons they are instantly confirmed town. Scum can only counter claim in Lylo. They don't even have to claim a partner, just say that they are a mason. In case they are scum lying, one of the real masons is enough to CC him and 1 for 1 in this setup is the worst play you can do as scum.
The actual mason alone wouldn't be enough to counter claim. They'd need at least one more mason to confirm. That becomes a 2-1 and a less terrible play for scum? Are you taking any of the claims made up to this point with any degree of seriousness and why?
One mason is enough for a CC.
Say scum decides to fake-claim mason. One real mason is going to CC. Obviously nobody confirms the scum's claim so he gets lynched. In the improbable case that a real mason has to claim because he is getting lynched, nobody would CC him. If for some reason scum decide to sacrifice a player and CC the real mason claim, a second mason can confirm the first one.
Mafia CC'ing earlier than LyLo is the worst strategy they can take.
Of course, II'm talking about real claims. Mason covers are just to distract the scum.
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Killjoy/vezok/dbs feels so tight to me, vezok and dbs both voted for me after I flipped from vaimes to killjoy. Maybe I'm being paranoid. unvote
Vote: vezokpiraka
As much as I want the killjoy lynch to happen, I don't want a rumanshi lynch to happen and vezok has been acting sketch as well.
I'm still suss enough of killjoy that, in the event he flips town, I have to re-evaluate basically the entire thread. There's still no way that argument was t/t and it's unlikely it was s/s because reasons and unless the re-eval turns up something fruitful I'm absolutely going after vaimes next day.
Could you go into further detail as to why you think they're both more likely to be scum than town? I realize you're not saying you think it's S/S (and maybe you've progressed towards the town side of the spectrum for one?), but I'm still not sure where the push is coming from if it's not from their dialogue.
Look.
The basic, universal strategy for this setup is that Masons will act like VTs, VTs will act like Masons, and scum will act like VTs but might fakeclaim Mason to bait a counterclaim.
@Mafia I am 100% VT. I love being a mason, and I'd probably just tell you if I was one out of sheer excitement. Now that we're clear, leave me alive until the end of the game please, so that way I can murder all of you with my insane behavioral analysis skills while you're hunting masons. Win/win!
@Rodemy I think you're just mistaken re: Vaimes saying two different things.
I'm on board with you on Ruma/Tubba, but I have no idea how you have me as your third scumread. Mikey has defended ruma and tubba all game while I've been actively pushing for ruma.
B U S S I N G
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@GF Can you explain 560, please? I'm not seeing what you're seeing re: Vezok & Mikey. I accept if Vezok's pending answer to 573 is necessary.
@Iso Hi! Good to see you. If you could just peg all 6 non-VT right now, that'd be greeeeeat.
@Mikey: Can you please explain or point me to where you have explained your townread of Ruma (without claiming you're Mason's)? Even after Grape's points regarding Ruma's first big post and the Ruma/Vaimes interaction you're still adamant Ruma is town and I don't understand how you've reached that conclusion.
@Grape: Is Mikey the third with you and KJ? It's the only explanation I can think of for why you still have a townread of him.
Where I am right now (lying in bed posting ) on the gamestate:
Town reads until I die (unless something massively drastic happens):
Rodemy/Vaimes: My reads are linked here based mainly on their interactions with one another. Unless they are exactly S/S and have orchestrated an amazing amount of scum theatre there is no way this is a T/S interaction. Both have banged their heads against the wall trying to get through to the other.
Dawningbluesky: The DBS slip looks legit enough that I'm onboard with the lockdown read others have given her. P.S. @DBS: Tom made it very clear in both the signup thread and the opening post of the game that it's 3 scum and 10 town(of which three are masons). I understand what you're saying about what you read offsite about what a mason is but unless Tom has made this a multiball game there is no way the masons are scum here. You can confirm this with him if you really feel it's necessary but trust that there is a reason multiple people have said that masons =/= scum here.
Varying degrees of Town/Null:
Grapefruit21: Grape scares me the same way that Shadow does, his scumgame is strong enough that even if he is town I get paranoid enough to look for reasons to scum read him (read Haiku Mafia for an amazingly bad Shadow conspiracy theory I concocted). Occam's makes me want to believe the Grape/KJ mason team is accurate but Grape is next level enough to claim mason as scum knowing he can explain why he hasn't been NK'd. And there is something he posted earlier that has my paranoia levels at near maximum but I'd rather not hand it to scum on a silver platter. They can work for that bit of info or just kill masonGrape.
Vezokpiraka: I've just played with town Vezok, the game is still ongoing so I can't say too much here other than I'm seeing a similarity that makes me doubt he's scum.
Ganderin_Dan: Nothing jumps out as scum in anything he's posted but he's not on a town level with Rod/Vaimes/DBS.
Sentenza: Unless the scumteam are coaching her on exactly what to say I cannot believe a first time forum player has this strong a scumgame. Her reads and thoughts are easy to follow and the town mindset of solving the game is very evident.
Iso: Replaced into a nonposting slot so too early to form a read. Posts made so far not setting off any alarm bells.
Killjoy: If it wasn't for the Grape/KJ Occam's theory I'd have KJ as null rather than leantown. I need to reread his ISO and the KJ/Vaimes interactions. The fact that several people have expressed scum reads of KJ worries me that I've either missed something or he's a mislynch waiting to happen. In which case, Vote Count Analysis!
MDK:
Rumanshi: Lynch with extreme prejudice. The points raised about his content (or lack thereof) and the differences between Ruma here and in OtG line up with how I was reading him as I caught up. Especially during the Vaimes clash.
Emcee_Mikey: Claimed Ruma here is the same as Ruma in OtG, claimed mason partners with Ruma, refuses to consider any contrary viewpoint regarding Ruma. Either Mikey is town hoping to mason claim a scum player to avoid being the NK or he's scum with Ruma who acts shocked when Ruma flips and falls back on the "was trying to dodge the NK" defense. Or he's scum linking himself to townRuma for cred knowing Ruma is a likely early lynch. I'm thinking we lynch Mikey first, if he flips town/mason it looks a lot better for Ruma.
Tubba: I can't put my finger on it exactly but Tubba just doesn't read as town to me. I wouldn't lock him down as definite scum but he's leanscum for me at the moment. Will need to reread to figure out if I'm just chasing shadows or if there's something there.
@Rodemy
if masons come in pairs, it'll mean t/t and t/s teams - 1 scum thrown into the mix - besides scum in their own hideout. don't see how it'll inflate the mafia or mason count.
@Grapefruit
the MO of claims is to move on to the next suspect/topic, but these covers are interfering with it. so, I do intend to ignore any claiming shenenigans. you/Mikey/Vaimes advocating for these covers though.. not quite sure how to approach it.
@Iso
ugh not another claim. I guess this is gonna be one of those games... mechanical salad.
thoughts on Mikey? he claimed Rumanshi as a partner. is it a thing, or just coincidence?
Ignore it like I asked would be a solution I'm a fan of. Like not mentioning Iso's claim would be a starting point. And not speculating on the veractiy of it would be exactly what I was requesting. Because if you're town (which I know you are) you are being actively harmful by trying to sort through these claims.
I'm comfortable keeping my vote on Vaimes. I don't like this whole "just leave me alive for a day and I'll prove I'm towny then." It reeks of too much self meta and doesn't contribute.
I just want to say that the ISO function is making me really mad. Who designed this crap?
This post seems to come from a mindset of "I want to push this wagon, but others don't so I'm going to shade".
in off the grid 4 rumanshi said somewhere that when he's town "he trolls" or something to that extent. He wasn't trolling in the beginning (fmpov) but as the game went on he got progressively more sarcastic.
that's true, though I've also seen him as careful town. it's more like he's a carefree player.
yes, carefree is another good way of putting it. Either way, rumanshi's tone is solidly in line with what I saw last game (noting that 1 game does not necessarily establish a meta)
As far as the mason stuff goes:
If town fakeclaim mason, we can tentatively clear players based on the nightkill. Assuming mafia is actively trying to hit the masons (and they should, that's 3 confirmed town players who know each other before lylo), when a player flips we can assume that mafia thought they were masons and thus their fake "mason buddies" can be assumed to be town. For example, if I die in the night, Rumanshi is more likely to be town. If grapefruit dies in the night, Killjoy is more likely to be town.
Ultimately I'm wasting a lot of words discussing mechanics, but I find town cover to be a super cool concept and I've seen it work well in all games I've played with it, so I support it here.
Not saying you're wrong for disliking it, just saying maybe you haven't considered all the benefits yet.
I had this exact same thought and didn't talk about it in thread, because that would make mafia more likely to shoot one of them just for WIFOM. This seems like mikey is aiming for townie points for strategy, when he should know that posting this would just create more WIFOM.
And his switch to killjoy seems incredibly oportunistic. He saw that the Vaimes wagon wasn't moving and switched gears completely to killjoy.
So in the first bold text he suggests what is off about Mikey is him being different. And it just being the differences that make him scum. Less confident and less brash and confrontational. Which makes sense if the read is that he's nervous. But we never see that read in his expanded case. The expanded case is focused almost entirely on shade. Which does fit with being different to OtG I guess but doesn't fit the less confident narrative.
The second bold text half contradicts the original read though. It shades Mikey saying his points are bad here (which is a reason he's scum I guess? I have lot's of bad points as town myself) but more importantly it changes the reason to scum read him. More laid back in OtG completely contradicts him being more confrontational an confident there. And the fact that he doesn't mention or comment on it being such a different read makes me think he is scum just trying to point to any difference rather than town trying to make a convincing case.
The last bold text just seems like a mindset slip. He's arguing that Mikey doing something that would garner a NK someone scum don't think is a Mason is a thing that makes him scummy. Which I don't buy for a second. I don't think Mikey's post was great but I don't think it's bad for any of the reasons Vezo suggests that it is.
Welcome back Dota! My scum game should not scare you anywhere near the way Shadow's does. I had one good game, shadow's had like 5. I'm keeping my third under wraps, but I will say I don't think Mikey is scum. Not going to go into reasons right now though.
How much of you putting tubba as a lean scum for effectively nothing substantial has to do with that being a consensus opinion?
I don't really think Mikey locking Ruma in as a town read is that surprising. If my first game after ZE with DBS had been a town game for me I don't think I would have scum read anything she did. After a game like that where you have such a deep disagreement with a player it's really hard to view them with a critical eye because you know so many of your instincts are wrong about them. Your instinct is "well they were town despite x,y, and z in the last one so they must be town despite i, n, and c here."
Also hate the lynch Mikey to solve Ruma plan passionately as a result of the above. And especially hate dota suggesting that a mason would ever flip via a lynch here. Vezo's breakdown of how claims should be handled is correct before Lylo. Which makes the paranoid part of me think that he was definitely thinking through the CC scenario's as scum.
More like I legitimately don't see a difference between this rumanshi and the rumanshi who, when tunneling on, was the biggest obstacle to winning last game. I'm not necessarily qualified to give meta reads on rumanshi, but if he was actually scum I think he'd at least try to be more consistent? Or like, he'd get micro-managed to death by his partners.
His entrance post from Off the Grid IV that vaimes quoted a while ago (I wanted to get to this but I had work today!) was something I thought was incredibly scummy, so saying that was town rumanshi and this is different isn't really gonna say much to me.
I feel a little bit overwhelmed right now between work and another TWG that I'm hosting that I need to write up a postgame for and magic online practice for GP Vegas so given that MTGS mafia takes so freaking long I'm going to put this game at low priority. I'll still be posting but probably only a short post in the morning before work and if I'm not tired a bigpost at night.
Rumanshi is absolutely the type of player to say "haha lynch me do it." I agree that if we have to lynch rumanshi it's better to do it early game because he's a wildcard, but do we really have to lynch him? He's not gonna defend himself. I'm guessing he's already decided he's dead with 5 votes on him. Besides, something something mason buddy
PS I'm still reading the thread fully and I'll get to whatever it was dan asked me later tonight in a second post.
@EmceeMikey - I might be the one to say 'haha Lynch me, do it', but I'm not the type to go down without a fight. Philosophy says that a town lynch is okay as long as it gives insight into the other players. I'm working on another post now.
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I am also called Riku. I tend to prefer being called riku.
Iso, if you somehow manage to catch the mafia at the expense of finding the Masons, the trade off is absolutely worth it, unless I’m misunderstanding you? Because what I read was “I have the ability to deduce who is what but I’m not gonna do it.”
Citing the Invitational makes no sense to me because we probably won /because/ of you. People would have been too stubborn about lynching Eco otherwise.
I think you misunderstood, then. My plan is to deduce who is what and not tell anyone who is what except for the scum that I want to lynch on that Day, and maybe the Masons in the 11th hour for a swift victory. (This is in response to dan, as well.)
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Dan
with daychat, wolves are pretty much capable of doing anything, and even though s/s is hilariously far out of reach I think t/t is just as far out of reach if not more. Both of them are acting individually scummy, killjoy less so, but killjoy's position in the 1v1 is the one I think is typically the scum. I kinda feel like I'm repeating myself a bit, but maybe I was a bit rambly last time.
What have I been doing for the past hours? Trying to work out this vote count situation. Right now it's in a perfect spot, so I might as well try, right?
There's some applicable theory in this. Scum have two avenues. Distance themselves in the vote count, or be close together.
I'm also confident in the town status of dawn.
I'm absolutely certain there is scum on me, but I don't think it is Sentenza, or Vaimes. There are a maximum of two scum on me, but there's definitely a least one. Iso would also be at the correct position in the votecount at hammer for him to be likely scum (4th voter), approximately the middle, and therefore a 'safe' position. Not a hammer, but not a push. A thing mafia like a lot. I liked Dota's latest post and I don't think he's scum.
Rodemy's vote on me is fine and all, but I want to know how he came to decide whether my posts were made with scum intent or not. This will help.
It's also completely possible one of the scum haven't even voted yet, which would make it dan or tubba. I'm almost tempted to say dan is town based on 391. Tubba for scum?
And I have no clue about the final bits. The puzzle is not solved yet.
Also @ISO: Man, how I wish I was the smartest twelve year old. Wouldn't it be great to be a uni student at age 12. Also @TownPost 578 - is reminiscent of scum arguments, guys. First of all, "Either the dude is 12 years old or scum, and since he's been playing for 4 years, I'm disinclined to believe the former is correct. I can write up a case if you guys reaaaally want me to, but that won't be until tomorrow, since I just spent the rest of my free time at work catching up. Besides, it practically writes itself if you read his posts."
Town players should never do this. As a town player, you should always keep open to alternative arguments, although be confident in your reads. Here he's saying "scum" or "young"! Without even leaving leeway for alternative interpretations. He also hasn't read the fact that I'm a uni student, so there's that.
"I can write up a case if you guys reaaaally want me to, but that won't be until tomorrow, since I just spent the rest of my free time at work catching up."
Come on, that's worse than me.
"Besides, it practically writes itself if you read his posts."
And here's where the argument is just bad. The point of reading players and ISO'ing is to generate an opinion of whether the posts are made under town intent or scum intent. Iso hasn't done that, rather he's said 'His posts basically play themselves!'. There's no evidence of why iso has decided that all my posts are made under 'scum intent', and thus, doesn't show his town intent when he's made the post.
I want to keep an eye on iso. This post stands out a lot, as it's the first content filled post iso made. The point is, the content in the post is lackluster.
@Rodemy: At your latest vote on me, what prompted you to make the decision. You said ruma 'does his thing' but you never explain why its scummy, you just decide to vote.
@609 ISO What gives you that impression?
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I am also called Riku. I tend to prefer being called riku.
@Dan
with daychat, wolves are pretty much capable of doing anything, and even though s/s is hilariously far out of reach I think t/t is just as far out of reach if not more. Both of them are acting individually scummy, killjoy less so, but killjoy's position in the 1v1 is the one I think is typically the scum. I kinda feel like I'm repeating myself a bit, but maybe I was a bit rambly last time.
That right there is the part I don't agree with. I know there is this Vaimes paranoia going around but I haven't seen more than one post that made me even look twice at him being scum.
What have I been doing for the past hours? Trying to work out this vote count situation. Right now it's in a perfect spot, so I might as well try, right?
There's some applicable theory in this. Scum have two avenues. Distance themselves in the vote count, or be close together.
I'm also confident in the town status of dawn.
I'm absolutely certain there is scum on me, but I don't think it is Sentenza, or Vaimes. There are a maximum of two scum on me, but there's definitely a least one. Iso would also be at the correct position in the votecount at hammer for him to be likely scum (4th voter), approximately the middle, and therefore a 'safe' position. Not a hammer, but not a push. A thing mafia like a lot. I liked Dota's latest post and I don't think he's scum.
Rodemy's vote on me is fine and all, but I want to know how he came to decide whether my posts were made with scum intent or not. This will help.
There is some really good analysis here Ruma but I'm struggling to follow your thoughts. Why are Sentezna and Vaimes townie? You had previously expressed doubt about Vaimes and gave no indication of changing your read in the interim. Why are you convinced there is definitely scum on you? Did you mix Dota and Rodemy up? Why the random digression about Dota in the middle of analyzing your wagon?
It's also completely possible one of the scum haven't even voted yet, which would make it dan or tubba. I'm almost tempted to say dan is town based on 391. Tubba for scum?
This is such a weird combination of effort and laziness that it feels townie to me. It's showing us nothing, giving 0 insight into his thought process while trying to appear busy which are normally scummy things, but there is usually an effort to appear not those things... I don't know.
And I have no clue about the final bits. The puzzle is not solved yet.
Also @ISO: Man, how I wish I was the smartest twelve year old. Wouldn't it be great to be a uni student at age 12. Also @TownPost 578 - is reminiscent of scum arguments, guys. First of all, "Either the dude is 12 years old or scum, and since he's been playing for 4 years, I'm disinclined to believe the former is correct. I can write up a case if you guys reaaaally want me to, but that won't be until tomorrow, since I just spent the rest of my free time at work catching up. Besides, it practically writes itself if you read his posts."
Town players should never do this. As a town player, you should always keep open to alternative arguments, although be confident in your reads. Here he's saying "scum" or "young"! Without even leaving leeway for alternative interpretations. He also hasn't read the fact that I'm a uni student, so there's that.
"I can write up a case if you guys reaaaally want me to, but that won't be until tomorrow, since I just spent the rest of my free time at work catching up."
Come on, that's worse than me.
"Besides, it practically writes itself if you read his posts."
And here's where the argument is just bad. The point of reading players and ISO'ing is to generate an opinion of whether the posts are made under town intent or scum intent. Iso hasn't done that, rather he's said 'His posts basically play themselves!'. There's no evidence of why iso has decided that all my posts are made under 'scum intent', and thus, doesn't show his town intent when he's made the post.
I want to keep an eye on iso. This post stands out a lot, as it's the first content filled post iso made. The point is, the content in the post is lackluster.
@Rodemy: At your latest vote on me, what prompted you to make the decision. You said ruma 'does his thing' but you never explain why its scummy, you just decide to vote.
@609 ISO What gives you that impression?
His roasting of Iso for being busy while complaining about people roasting him for being busy is the sort of reaction I'd expect scum feeling CFTWR to feel.
Ruma why does Iso's post being lackluster make him scum. Connect the dots for me please. Iso's post is lackluster is a fact I can agree on, but your conclusion of it's worrying keep an eye on him because it's lazy isn't my reaction to it at all. What is making the connection for you?
What have I been doing for the past hours? Trying to work out this vote count situation. Right now it's in a perfect spot, so I might as well try, right?
There's some applicable theory in this. Scum have two avenues. Distance themselves in the vote count, or be close together.
I'm also confident in the town status of dawn.
I'm absolutely certain there is scum on me, but I don't think it is Sentenza, or Vaimes. There are a maximum of two scum on me, but there's definitely a least one. Iso would also be at the correct position in the votecount at hammer for him to be likely scum (4th voter), approximately the middle, and therefore a 'safe' position. Not a hammer, but not a push. A thing mafia like a lot. I liked Dota's latest post and I don't think he's scum.
Rodemy's vote on me is fine and all, but I want to know how he came to decide whether my posts were made with scum intent or not. This will help.
There is some really good analysis here Ruma but I'm struggling to follow your thoughts. Why are Sentezna and Vaimes townie? You had previously expressed doubt about Vaimes and gave no indication of changing your read in the interim. Why are you convinced there is definitely scum on you? Did you mix Dota and Rodemy up? Why the random digression about Dota in the middle of analyzing your wagon?
It's also completely possible one of the scum haven't even voted yet, which would make it dan or tubba. I'm almost tempted to say dan is town based on 391. Tubba for scum?
This is such a weird combination of effort and laziness that it feels townie to me. It's showing us nothing, giving 0 insight into his thought process while trying to appear busy which are normally scummy things, but there is usually an effort to appear not those things... I don't know.
And I have no clue about the final bits. The puzzle is not solved yet.
Also @ISO: Man, how I wish I was the smartest twelve year old. Wouldn't it be great to be a uni student at age 12. Also @TownPost 578 - is reminiscent of scum arguments, guys. First of all, "Either the dude is 12 years old or scum, and since he's been playing for 4 years, I'm disinclined to believe the former is correct. I can write up a case if you guys reaaaally want me to, but that won't be until tomorrow, since I just spent the rest of my free time at work catching up. Besides, it practically writes itself if you read his posts."
Town players should never do this. As a town player, you should always keep open to alternative arguments, although be confident in your reads. Here he's saying "scum" or "young"! Without even leaving leeway for alternative interpretations. He also hasn't read the fact that I'm a uni student, so there's that.
"I can write up a case if you guys reaaaally want me to, but that won't be until tomorrow, since I just spent the rest of my free time at work catching up."
Come on, that's worse than me.
"Besides, it practically writes itself if you read his posts."
And here's where the argument is just bad. The point of reading players and ISO'ing is to generate an opinion of whether the posts are made under town intent or scum intent. Iso hasn't done that, rather he's said 'His posts basically play themselves!'. There's no evidence of why iso has decided that all my posts are made under 'scum intent', and thus, doesn't show his town intent when he's made the post.
I want to keep an eye on iso. This post stands out a lot, as it's the first content filled post iso made. The point is, the content in the post is lackluster.
@Rodemy: At your latest vote on me, what prompted you to make the decision. You said ruma 'does his thing' but you never explain why its scummy, you just decide to vote.
@609 ISO What gives you that impression?
His roasting of Iso for being busy while complaining about people roasting him for being busy is the sort of reaction I'd expect scum feeling CFTWR to feel.
Ruma why does Iso's post being lackluster make him scum. Connect the dots for me please. Iso's post is lackluster is a fact I can agree on, but your conclusion of it's worrying keep an eye on him because it's lazy isn't my reaction to it at all. What is making the connection for you?
I explained exactly why ISO post's are bad. It expects the other players to make the decision, rather than explaining why he himself made the decision. This is a common scum action.
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I am also called Riku. I tend to prefer being called riku.
"There is some really good analysis here Ruma but I'm struggling to follow your thoughts. Why are Sentezna and Vaimes townie? You had previously expressed doubt about Vaimes and gave no indication of changing your read in the interim. Why are you convinced there is definitely scum on you? Did you mix Dota and Rodemy up? Why the random digression about Dota in the middle of analyzing your wagon?"
Vaimes is town because I took away my bias, looked at our conversation and came out of it with 'Oh, I see exactly where he is coming from. I also agree with the other opninions that Sentenna is playing very well if it's a first time scum.
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I am also called Riku. I tend to prefer being called riku.
First of all, I find your votecount analysis flawed; you say "hurr durr vote position" without taking into account the fact that I'd have snap-voted you had I been present for your early posting. My first real foray into this game just so happened to coincide with where your wagon is presently at. Maybe you should be looking at yourself and think, "How did I get caught so easily?" rather than deflecting on to the person who's only been in the game long enough to make one or two posts of actual substance with that disingenuous garbage argument.
With regards to my post in question, there's absolutely no way you can be arguing in good faith that I'm scum. You're impetuous and expect us to think "trolling the game" is somehow a constructive manner of play. Your manner of sarcasm is ill-developed and you take a lot as a personal affront. You speak of "chaos" like it's this edgy and cool thing that somehow assists your understanding of the world around you. This, to me, speaks either of your maturity as a person, or of the fact that you're upset about something in the game. Since you're not actually 12, therefore, I can only assume that you're upset due to being caught so early in a Mafia game. This is an understandable reaction - nobody likes screwing it up for their team so early on in the game. I think this narrative is aided further by the fact that instead of attempting to persuade me into understanding your "alternative interpretations" of your mindset right now, you're trying to talk around me to the other players and attempting to smear me in doing so.
As far as calling that particular part of my argument "bad", uhh, I'm not sure what all you expected me to say. Your posts are scummy. Again, I can actually highlight where your mindset is clearly indicative of scum - upset scum, at that - but at this point in the game, I don't feel particularly compelled to do so. You're 4 votes deep towards a lynch. That said, I'm an amicable guy, so I'll cut you some slack and give you something substantial to actually respond to:
"There's no evidence of why iso has decided that all my posts are made under 'scum intent', and thus, doesn't show his town intent when he's made the post." (Look, I can color things red, too!)
Let's break this down:
"There's no evidence of why"
To me, referring to my push against you as "evidence" in and of itself is damning. It illustrates a guilty mindset - if you were town, there couldn't be any evidence. Your word choice betrays you.
"iso has decided that all my posts are made under 'scum intent'"
First of all, I didn't "decide" it; you did. I simply read your posts and discerned the scum intent from them. The fact that I didn't actually write out my case on you doesn't mean I don't have one - it means I didn't write it. I specifically stated that I was playing close to the chest to avoid revealing the Masons as much as I possibly could. This highlights another town deficiency in your mindset - you're practically begging for me to case you so that you can respond for it. What townie cares that much about the way they're perceived? Speaking from personal experience, I was extremely frustrated in Disinheiritance Mafia when I got lynched on memes. I demanded a case to be presented against me so that I could prove it wrong, but nobody would oblige, and I got lynched as scum. It was miserable, and I hated it, but I was desperate to not die, and it showed. This is the impression that your post, here, gives me.
"and thus, doesn't show his town intent when he's made the post."
This is the shallowest logic I've seen on this site in a long time. "You didn't post what you were thinking, so you didn't prove that you were town!!!" I would expect a 5-year old to come up with this argument. Just...the notion behind the, "Oh yeah? Well, prove it!" mindset is yet another indicator of guilt to me. Unless you're 12, which, as has been clarified, you are not.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Agreed with Grapefruit that there's a CFTWR vibe from Rumashi's post.
-
Wait, so, Rumanshi, you think that the Socratic Method is indicative of scum? Can you explain how allowing people to come to their own conclusions as opposed to ramming my opinion down their throats and forcing them to believe it is scummy? Because I would assume that allowing people autonomy is a far more democratic, and by nature, less scummy, approach. Also, it sounds like you're taking an issue with my playstyle that is not indicative of my alignment - so, again, how is that scummy, exactly?
Also, if you're really so convinced I'm scum after my push on you, why aren't you voting for me?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I explained exactly why ISO post's are bad. It expects the other players to make the decision, rather than explaining why he himself made the decision. This is a common scum action.
But that is literally exactly what you were doing in your reads wall. But with the bonus that you were claiming they were reads. You were making proclamations and linking one or two posts without saying why those posts contained the things they contained.
Your big hammer is that he doens't point to town or scum intent in his wall but he's specifically saying he doesn't intend to. If your point was he's being difficult we need to get rid of him or force him to cooperate I'd be happy to consider it, but that wasn't your point.
Your point is he is scum for not walking us through his reads. Which you haven't done. And sure you have consistently blamed time but you had time to make a wall with quotes in it and didn't find time to explain why any of the quotes you linked showed the town or scum instinct you claimed they had.
Also you deciding that you can see where Vaimes is coming from and changing your read on him is kind of a big deal. Not sure why you didn't include that when you said you don't think Vaimes is scum in your wagon analysis. Because you writing off Vaimes as town without an explanation was a giant head-scratcher trying to follow your logic.
I also only wanted an eye kept on him. Not once did I say "LYNCH HIM FOR DOING THIS". I specifically said it was suspicious, yes. I didnt lock in a scum read -_-
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I am also called Riku. I tend to prefer being called riku.
Also note now that Iso has replied I was referring to his post as lackluster and calling him difficult in the devil's advocate trying to walk Ruma into responding like a townie to this. Iso's I'm not going to share anything because it would be too easy to implicate Mason's is difficult and possibly unnecessary and it could be scum cover for not trying. But Ruma chose not to make that argument and I don't actually have a problem with the way Iso is handling this, just see how a townie could.
I'm also typing horribly right now and am sorry if my posts are a bit incoherent at the moment.
Also note now that Iso has replied I was referring to his post as lackluster and calling him difficult in the devil's advocate trying to walk Ruma into responding like a townie to this. Iso's I'm not going to share anything because it would be too easy to implicate Mason's is difficult and possibly unnecessary and it could be scum cover for not trying. But Ruma chose not to make that argument and I don't actually have a problem with the way Iso is handling this, just see how a townie could.
I'm also typing horribly right now and am sorry if my posts are a bit incoherent at the moment.
Ultimately, Im expecting to get lynched and am trying to provide as much information before I do.
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I am also called Riku. I tend to prefer being called riku.
Where did I indicate that I thought you were 100% scum? Please quote the exact time I said that.
Where did I indicate that you thought I was 100% scum? Please quote the exact time I said that.
Also, are you just going to ignore my case against you, now that I've presented it? You strawmanned the entire thing as "saying I cast suspicion on you for voting me is scummy". That...doesn't actually address any of the meat of the case.
Also note now that Iso has replied I was referring to his post as lackluster and calling him difficult in the devil's advocate trying to walk Ruma into responding like a townie to this. Iso's I'm not going to share anything because it would be too easy to implicate Mason's is difficult and possibly unnecessary and it could be scum cover for not trying. But Ruma chose not to make that argument and I don't actually have a problem with the way Iso is handling this, just see how a townie could.
I'm also typing horribly right now and am sorry if my posts are a bit incoherent at the moment.
Yeah, gonna have to ask you to re-write this when you get a chance.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I also only wanted an eye kept on him. Not once did I say "LYNCH HIM FOR DOING THIS". I specifically said it was suspicious, yes. I didnt lock in a scum read -_-
I agree! It's part of what I didn't love about your post. Thanks for reminding me. You zero in on Vezo as super likely scum and do nothing to sell your argument but spill a ton of ink defending yourself from Iso. You even poke at Rod more than you do Vezo. There is no call to action to try and get him lynched just a parked read and focus elsewhere.
And for your reads wall you didn't give quotes for everyone. In fact you gave quotes for the ones where giving quotes would be least important as town (DBS and Rod) and the only other one was for Vezo and that link and explanation isn't particularly enlightening.
Grapefruit was trying to give rumanshi an opportunity to respond to you in a town way which apparently ruma didn't pick up. He pointed out how you said "I won't help because masons" is difficult/unnecessary. He likes you right now though?
That's how I understood that post, I think it's pretty much the same.
I also only wanted an eye kept on him. Not once did I say "LYNCH HIM FOR DOING THIS". I specifically said it was suspicious, yes. I didnt lock in a scum read -_-
I agree! It's part of what I didn't love about your post. Thanks for reminding me. You zero in on Vezo as super likely scum and do nothing to sell your argument but spill a ton of ink defending yourself from Iso. You even poke at Rod more than you do Vezo. There is no call to action to try and get him lynched just a parked read and focus elsewhere.
And for your reads wall you didn't give quotes for everyone. In fact you gave quotes for the ones where giving quotes would be least important as town (DBS and Rod) and the only other one was for Vezo and that link and explanation isn't particularly enlightening.
Honestly, I'm not a good player. Im lucky. Its never mattered if I make good points or not, Ive won off pure luck in most of my games. My ability to form a read is irrelvant, because ive never done it well. Id link to all previous cases, but MAL is down.
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I am also called Riku. I tend to prefer being called riku.
I also only wanted an eye kept on him. Not once did I say "LYNCH HIM FOR DOING THIS". I specifically said it was suspicious, yes. I didnt lock in a scum read -_-
I agree! It's part of what I didn't love about your post. Thanks for reminding me. You zero in on Vezo as super likely scum and do nothing to sell your argument but spill a ton of ink defending yourself from Iso. You even poke at Rod more than you do Vezo. There is no call to action to try and get him lynched just a parked read and focus elsewhere.
And for your reads wall you didn't give quotes for everyone. In fact you gave quotes for the ones where giving quotes would be least important as town (DBS and Rod) and the only other one was for Vezo and that link and explanation isn't particularly enlightening.
Another fine post substantiating my own feelings about Rumanshi.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Grapefruit was trying to give rumanshi an opportunity to respond to you in a town way which apparently ruma didn't pick up. He pointed out how you said "I won't help because masons" is difficult/unnecessary. He likes you right now though?
That's how I understood that post, I think it's pretty much the same.
I understand that you were trying to help but please don't answer questions asked of other players in the future. Thanks!
I also only wanted an eye kept on him. Not once did I say "LYNCH HIM FOR DOING THIS". I specifically said it was suspicious, yes. I didnt lock in a scum read -_-
I agree! It's part of what I didn't love about your post. Thanks for reminding me. You zero in on Vezo as super likely scum and do nothing to sell your argument but spill a ton of ink defending yourself from Iso. You even poke at Rod more than you do Vezo. There is no call to action to try and get him lynched just a parked read and focus elsewhere.
And for your reads wall you didn't give quotes for everyone. In fact you gave quotes for the ones where giving quotes would be least important as town (DBS and Rod) and the only other one was for Vezo and that link and explanation isn't particularly enlightening.
Honestly, I'm not a good player. Im lucky. Its never mattered if I make good points or not, Ive won off pure luck in most of my games. My ability to form a read is irrelvant, because ive never done it well. Id link to all previous cases, but MAL is down.
Ah, so, "I'm a bad player so don't lynch me." Solid defense.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Grapefruit was trying to give rumanshi an opportunity to respond to you in a town way which apparently ruma didn't pick up. He pointed out how you said "I won't help because masons" is difficult/unnecessary. He likes you right now though?
That's how I understood that post, I think it's pretty much the same.
I understand that you were trying to help but please don't answer questions asked of other players in the future. Thanks!
I also only wanted an eye kept on him. Not once did I say "LYNCH HIM FOR DOING THIS". I specifically said it was suspicious, yes. I didnt lock in a scum read -_-
I agree! It's part of what I didn't love about your post. Thanks for reminding me. You zero in on Vezo as super likely scum and do nothing to sell your argument but spill a ton of ink defending yourself from Iso. You even poke at Rod more than you do Vezo. There is no call to action to try and get him lynched just a parked read and focus elsewhere.
And for your reads wall you didn't give quotes for everyone. In fact you gave quotes for the ones where giving quotes would be least important as town (DBS and Rod) and the only other one was for Vezo and that link and explanation isn't particularly enlightening.
Honestly, I'm not a good player. Im lucky. Its never mattered if I make good points or not, Ive won off pure luck in most of my games. My ability to form a read is irrelvant, because ive never done it well. Id link to all previous cases, but MAL is down.
Ah, so, "I'm a bad player so don't lynch me." Solid defense.
I think I mentioned before, but I don't care if I get lynched. I'm expecting to be lynched. I just wanted to leave behind my thoughts before I do get lynched. Because, when I flip, you'll see whether or not my intent was what you were. I am disgusted with your attitude of 'Oh, he's so totally definitely scum and I'm proud to have found this!' when it's not solid until a flip..
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I am also called Riku. I tend to prefer being called riku.
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if masons come in pairs, it'll mean t/t and t/s teams - 1 scum thrown into the mix - besides scum in their own hideout. don't see how it'll inflate the mafia or mason count.
@Grapefruit
the MO of claims is to move on to the next suspect/topic, but these covers are interfering with it. so, I do intend to ignore any claiming shenenigans. you/Mikey/Vaimes advocating for these covers though.. not quite sure how to approach it.
@Iso
ugh not another claim. I guess this is gonna be one of those games... mechanical salad.
thoughts on Mikey? he claimed Rumanshi as a partner. is it a thing, or just coincidence?
Be grateful, always."
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
There is no possibility that the masons are scum. If someone claims masons they are instantly confirmed town. Scum can only counter claim in Lylo. They don't even have to claim a partner, just say that they are a mason. In case they are scum lying, one of the real masons is enough to CC him and 1 for 1 in this setup is the worst play you can do as scum.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
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Tom must be Oprah, concidering all these masons.
YOU GET A MASON ROLE. YOU GET A MASON ROLE.
Did you just... claim scum?
he never mentions you specifically as having a case. i feel like that was in general.
im gonna just assume you thought he was calling you scum and continued to think he thought you had a case on him..
as scun, you can twist his words like that make it seem like he slipped up saying you had a strong case, but he never implied you specifically
i do like this
this ia jusy bratty
again, pushing a scum motive for.. almost nothing. although i see the frustration.
again petty. and also not giving reads.
i feel very good about this one. instead of continueing to push scum, he backs off
then.. ruma.. does his thing.
ya know what?
vote ruma
vaimes kinda pulled through on that one. see, told ya it would change.
Citing the Invitational makes no sense to me because we probably won /because/ of you. People would have been too stubborn about lynching Eco otherwise.
The actual mason alone wouldn't be enough to counter claim. They'd need at least one more mason to confirm. That becomes a 2-1 and a less terrible play for scum? Are you taking any of the claims made up to this point with any degree of seriousness and why?
So people who are using the meta from that game to justify townreading him here: I'm lost.
Now compare that to his thoughts on this game:
One mason is enough for a CC.
Say scum decides to fake-claim mason. One real mason is going to CC. Obviously nobody confirms the scum's claim so he gets lynched. In the improbable case that a real mason has to claim because he is getting lynched, nobody would CC him. If for some reason scum decide to sacrifice a player and CC the real mason claim, a second mason can confirm the first one.
Mafia CC'ing earlier than LyLo is the worst strategy they can take.
Of course, II'm talking about real claims. Mason covers are just to distract the scum.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
why? vaimes ja the one pushing him the hardest. iso votes him straight out the gate. why me?
Vezok (2) - Ruma, Grapefruit
Killjoy (1) - Mikey
Mikey (1) - Dawn
Vaimes (1) - Killjoy
With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch.
All credit goes to shadowlancerXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.
unvote
Vote: vezokpiraka
As much as I want the killjoy lynch to happen, I don't want a rumanshi lynch to happen and vezok has been acting sketch as well.
@Rodemy I think you're just mistaken re: Vaimes saying two different things.
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@GF Can you explain 560, please? I'm not seeing what you're seeing re: Vezok & Mikey. I accept if Vezok's pending answer to 573 is necessary.
@Iso Hi! Good to see you. If you could just peg all 6 non-VT right now, that'd be greeeeeat.
@Mikey: Can you please explain or point me to where you have explained your townread of Ruma (without claiming you're Mason's)? Even after Grape's points regarding Ruma's first big post and the Ruma/Vaimes interaction you're still adamant Ruma is town and I don't understand how you've reached that conclusion.
@Grape: Is Mikey the third with you and KJ? It's the only explanation I can think of for why you still have a townread of him.
Where I am right now
(lying in bed posting
)on the gamestate:Town reads until I die (unless something massively drastic happens):
Rodemy/Vaimes: My reads are linked here based mainly on their interactions with one another. Unless they are exactly S/S and have orchestrated an amazing amount of scum theatre there is no way this is a T/S interaction. Both have banged their heads against the wall trying to get through to the other.
Dawningbluesky: The DBS slip looks legit enough that I'm onboard with the lockdown read others have given her. P.S. @DBS: Tom made it very clear in both the signup thread and the opening post of the game that it's 3 scum and 10 town(of which three are masons). I understand what you're saying about what you read offsite about what a mason is but unless Tom has made this a multiball game there is no way the masons are scum here. You can confirm this with him if you really feel it's necessary but trust that there is a reason multiple people have said that masons =/= scum here.
Varying degrees of Town/Null:
Grapefruit21: Grape scares me the same way that Shadow does, his scumgame is strong enough that even if he is town I get paranoid enough to look for reasons to scum read him (read Haiku Mafia for an amazingly bad Shadow conspiracy theory I concocted). Occam's makes me want to believe the Grape/KJ mason team is accurate but Grape is next level enough to claim mason as scum knowing he can explain why he hasn't been NK'd. And there is something he posted earlier that has my paranoia levels at near maximum but I'd rather not hand it to scum on a silver platter. They can work for that bit of info or just kill masonGrape.
Vezokpiraka: I've just played with town Vezok, the game is still ongoing so I can't say too much here other than I'm seeing a similarity that makes me doubt he's scum.
Ganderin_Dan: Nothing jumps out as scum in anything he's posted but he's not on a town level with Rod/Vaimes/DBS.
Sentenza: Unless the scumteam are coaching her on exactly what to say I cannot believe a first time forum player has this strong a scumgame. Her reads and thoughts are easy to follow and the town mindset of solving the game is very evident.
Iso: Replaced into a nonposting slot so too early to form a read. Posts made so far not setting off any alarm bells.
Killjoy: If it wasn't for the Grape/KJ Occam's theory I'd have KJ as null rather than leantown. I need to reread his ISO and the KJ/Vaimes interactions. The fact that several people have expressed scum reads of KJ worries me that I've either missed something or he's a mislynch waiting to happen. In which case, Vote Count Analysis!
MDK:
Rumanshi: Lynch with extreme prejudice. The points raised about his content (or lack thereof) and the differences between Ruma here and in OtG line up with how I was reading him as I caught up. Especially during the Vaimes clash.
Emcee_Mikey: Claimed Ruma here is the same as Ruma in OtG, claimed mason partners with Ruma, refuses to consider any contrary viewpoint regarding Ruma. Either Mikey is town hoping to mason claim a scum player to avoid being the NK or he's scum with Ruma who acts shocked when Ruma flips and falls back on the "was trying to dodge the NK" defense. Or he's scum linking himself to townRuma for cred knowing Ruma is a likely early lynch. I'm thinking we lynch Mikey first, if he flips town/mason it looks a lot better for Ruma.
Tubba: I can't put my finger on it exactly but Tubba just doesn't read as town to me. I wouldn't lock him down as definite scum but he's leanscum for me at the moment. Will need to reread to figure out if I'm just chasing shadows or if there's something there.
Vote: Emcee_Mikey
Ignore it like I asked would be a solution I'm a fan of. Like not mentioning Iso's claim would be a starting point. And not speculating on the veractiy of it would be exactly what I was requesting. Because if you're town (which I know you are) you are being actively harmful by trying to sort through these claims.
For those asking for my Vezo case.
The second bold text half contradicts the original read though. It shades Mikey saying his points are bad here (which is a reason he's scum I guess? I have lot's of bad points as town myself) but more importantly it changes the reason to scum read him. More laid back in OtG completely contradicts him being more confrontational an confident there. And the fact that he doesn't mention or comment on it being such a different read makes me think he is scum just trying to point to any difference rather than town trying to make a convincing case.
The last bold text just seems like a mindset slip. He's arguing that Mikey doing something that would garner a NK someone scum don't think is a Mason is a thing that makes him scummy. Which I don't buy for a second. I don't think Mikey's post was great but I don't think it's bad for any of the reasons Vezo suggests that it is.
How much of you putting tubba as a lean scum for effectively nothing substantial has to do with that being a consensus opinion?
I don't really think Mikey locking Ruma in as a town read is that surprising. If my first game after ZE with DBS had been a town game for me I don't think I would have scum read anything she did. After a game like that where you have such a deep disagreement with a player it's really hard to view them with a critical eye because you know so many of your instincts are wrong about them. Your instinct is "well they were town despite x,y, and z in the last one so they must be town despite i, n, and c here."
Also hate the lynch Mikey to solve Ruma plan passionately as a result of the above. And especially hate dota suggesting that a mason would ever flip via a lynch here. Vezo's breakdown of how claims should be handled is correct before Lylo. Which makes the paranoid part of me think that he was definitely thinking through the CC scenario's as scum.
His entrance post from Off the Grid IV that vaimes quoted a while ago (I wanted to get to this but I had work today!) was something I thought was incredibly scummy, so saying that was town rumanshi and this is different isn't really gonna say much to me.
I feel a little bit overwhelmed right now between work and another TWG that I'm hosting that I need to write up a postgame for and magic online practice for GP Vegas so given that MTGS mafia takes so freaking long I'm going to put this game at low priority. I'll still be posting but probably only a short post in the morning before work and if I'm not tired a bigpost at night.
Rumanshi is absolutely the type of player to say "haha lynch me do it." I agree that if we have to lynch rumanshi it's better to do it early game because he's a wildcard, but do we really have to lynch him? He's not gonna defend himself. I'm guessing he's already decided he's dead with 5 votes on him. Besides, something something mason buddy
PS I'm still reading the thread fully and I'll get to whatever it was dan asked me later tonight in a second post.
I think you misunderstood, then. My plan is to deduce who is what and not tell anyone who is what except for the scum that I want to lynch on that Day, and maybe the Masons in the 11th hour for a swift victory. (This is in response to dan, as well.)
Oh yeah, I guess the scum do have Daytalk. Huh.
Still, Rumanshi strikes me as the character type to not actually care what his scumbuddies are saying.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Carry on.
with daychat, wolves are pretty much capable of doing anything, and even though s/s is hilariously far out of reach I think t/t is just as far out of reach if not more. Both of them are acting individually scummy, killjoy less so, but killjoy's position in the 1v1 is the one I think is typically the scum. I kinda feel like I'm repeating myself a bit, but maybe I was a bit rambly last time.
There's some applicable theory in this. Scum have two avenues. Distance themselves in the vote count, or be close together.
I'm also confident in the town status of dawn.
I'm absolutely certain there is scum on me, but I don't think it is Sentenza, or Vaimes. There are a maximum of two scum on me, but there's definitely a least one. Iso would also be at the correct position in the votecount at hammer for him to be likely scum (4th voter), approximately the middle, and therefore a 'safe' position. Not a hammer, but not a push. A thing mafia like a lot. I liked Dota's latest post and I don't think he's scum.
Rodemy's vote on me is fine and all, but I want to know how he came to decide whether my posts were made with scum intent or not. This will help.
It's also completely possible one of the scum haven't even voted yet, which would make it dan or tubba. I'm almost tempted to say dan is town based on 391. Tubba for scum?
Never mind, Iso'ing tubba reveals nothing -_- https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/search?search-thread-id=793343&search-forum-id=&forum-scope=f&display-type=0&search=&search-type=0&by-author=tubba fett&begin-date=&begin-time=&end-date=&end-time=&min-posts=&min-views=&display-type=0&submit=y
Maybe neither of the non voters are scum then.
And I have no clue about the final bits. The puzzle is not solved yet.
Also @ISO: Man, how I wish I was the smartest twelve year old. Wouldn't it be great to be a uni student at age 12. Also @TownPost 578 - is reminiscent of scum arguments, guys. First of all, "Either the dude is 12 years old or scum, and since he's been playing for 4 years, I'm disinclined to believe the former is correct. I can write up a case if you guys reaaaally want me to, but that won't be until tomorrow, since I just spent the rest of my free time at work catching up. Besides, it practically writes itself if you read his posts."
Town players should never do this. As a town player, you should always keep open to alternative arguments, although be confident in your reads. Here he's saying "scum" or "young"! Without even leaving leeway for alternative interpretations. He also hasn't read the fact that I'm a uni student, so there's that.
"I can write up a case if you guys reaaaally want me to, but that won't be until tomorrow, since I just spent the rest of my free time at work catching up."
Come on, that's worse than me.
"Besides, it practically writes itself if you read his posts."
And here's where the argument is just bad. The point of reading players and ISO'ing is to generate an opinion of whether the posts are made under town intent or scum intent. Iso hasn't done that, rather he's said 'His posts basically play themselves!'. There's no evidence of why iso has decided that all my posts are made under 'scum intent', and thus, doesn't show his town intent when he's made the post.
I want to keep an eye on iso. This post stands out a lot, as it's the first content filled post iso made. The point is, the content in the post is lackluster.
@Rodemy: At your latest vote on me, what prompted you to make the decision. You said ruma 'does his thing' but you never explain why its scummy, you just decide to vote.
@609 ISO What gives you that impression?
That right there is the part I don't agree with. I know there is this Vaimes paranoia going around but I haven't seen more than one post that made me even look twice at him being scum.
Time to take a look at Ruma's wall!
What makes it perfect now?
There is some really good analysis here Ruma but I'm struggling to follow your thoughts. Why are Sentezna and Vaimes townie? You had previously expressed doubt about Vaimes and gave no indication of changing your read in the interim. Why are you convinced there is definitely scum on you? Did you mix Dota and Rodemy up? Why the random digression about Dota in the middle of analyzing your wagon?
This is such a weird combination of effort and laziness that it feels townie to me. It's showing us nothing, giving 0 insight into his thought process while trying to appear busy which are normally scummy things, but there is usually an effort to appear not those things... I don't know.
His roasting of Iso for being busy while complaining about people roasting him for being busy is the sort of reaction I'd expect scum feeling CFTWR to feel.
Ruma why does Iso's post being lackluster make him scum. Connect the dots for me please. Iso's post is lackluster is a fact I can agree on, but your conclusion of it's worrying keep an eye on him because it's lazy isn't my reaction to it at all. What is making the connection for you?
I explained exactly why ISO post's are bad. It expects the other players to make the decision, rather than explaining why he himself made the decision. This is a common scum action.
Vaimes is town because I took away my bias, looked at our conversation and came out of it with 'Oh, I see exactly where he is coming from. I also agree with the other opninions that Sentenna is playing very well if it's a first time scum.
@Rumanshi:
First of all, I find your votecount analysis flawed; you say "hurr durr vote position" without taking into account the fact that I'd have snap-voted you had I been present for your early posting. My first real foray into this game just so happened to coincide with where your wagon is presently at. Maybe you should be looking at yourself and think, "How did I get caught so easily?" rather than deflecting on to the person who's only been in the game long enough to make one or two posts of actual substance with that disingenuous garbage argument.
With regards to my post in question, there's absolutely no way you can be arguing in good faith that I'm scum. You're impetuous and expect us to think "trolling the game" is somehow a constructive manner of play. Your manner of sarcasm is ill-developed and you take a lot as a personal affront. You speak of "chaos" like it's this edgy and cool thing that somehow assists your understanding of the world around you. This, to me, speaks either of your maturity as a person, or of the fact that you're upset about something in the game. Since you're not actually 12, therefore, I can only assume that you're upset due to being caught so early in a Mafia game. This is an understandable reaction - nobody likes screwing it up for their team so early on in the game. I think this narrative is aided further by the fact that instead of attempting to persuade me into understanding your "alternative interpretations" of your mindset right now, you're trying to talk around me to the other players and attempting to smear me in doing so.
As far as calling that particular part of my argument "bad", uhh, I'm not sure what all you expected me to say. Your posts are scummy. Again, I can actually highlight where your mindset is clearly indicative of scum - upset scum, at that - but at this point in the game, I don't feel particularly compelled to do so. You're 4 votes deep towards a lynch. That said, I'm an amicable guy, so I'll cut you some slack and give you something substantial to actually respond to:
"There's no evidence of why iso has decided that all my posts are made under 'scum intent', and thus, doesn't show his town intent when he's made the post." (Look, I can color things red, too!)
Let's break this down:
"There's no evidence of why"
To me, referring to my push against you as "evidence" in and of itself is damning. It illustrates a guilty mindset - if you were town, there couldn't be any evidence. Your word choice betrays you.
"iso has decided that all my posts are made under 'scum intent'"
First of all, I didn't "decide" it; you did. I simply read your posts and discerned the scum intent from them. The fact that I didn't actually write out my case on you doesn't mean I don't have one - it means I didn't write it. I specifically stated that I was playing close to the chest to avoid revealing the Masons as much as I possibly could. This highlights another town deficiency in your mindset - you're practically begging for me to case you so that you can respond for it. What townie cares that much about the way they're perceived? Speaking from personal experience, I was extremely frustrated in Disinheiritance Mafia when I got lynched on memes. I demanded a case to be presented against me so that I could prove it wrong, but nobody would oblige, and I got lynched as scum. It was miserable, and I hated it, but I was desperate to not die, and it showed. This is the impression that your post, here, gives me.
"and thus, doesn't show his town intent when he's made the post."
This is the shallowest logic I've seen on this site in a long time. "You didn't post what you were thinking, so you didn't prove that you were town!!!" I would expect a 5-year old to come up with this argument. Just...the notion behind the, "Oh yeah? Well, prove it!" mindset is yet another indicator of guilt to me. Unless you're 12, which, as has been clarified, you are not.
Any questions?
No?
Great. Let's lynch Rumanshi, now.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
-
Wait, so, Rumanshi, you think that the Socratic Method is indicative of scum? Can you explain how allowing people to come to their own conclusions as opposed to ramming my opinion down their throats and forcing them to believe it is scummy? Because I would assume that allowing people autonomy is a far more democratic, and by nature, less scummy, approach. Also, it sounds like you're taking an issue with my playstyle that is not indicative of my alignment - so, again, how is that scummy, exactly?
Also, if you're really so convinced I'm scum after my push on you, why aren't you voting for me?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
But that is literally exactly what you were doing in your reads wall. But with the bonus that you were claiming they were reads. You were making proclamations and linking one or two posts without saying why those posts contained the things they contained.
Your big hammer is that he doens't point to town or scum intent in his wall but he's specifically saying he doesn't intend to. If your point was he's being difficult we need to get rid of him or force him to cooperate I'd be happy to consider it, but that wasn't your point.
Your point is he is scum for not walking us through his reads. Which you haven't done. And sure you have consistently blamed time but you had time to make a wall with quotes in it and didn't find time to explain why any of the quotes you linked showed the town or scum instinct you claimed they had.
Also you deciding that you can see where Vaimes is coming from and changing your read on him is kind of a big deal. Not sure why you didn't include that when you said you don't think Vaimes is scum in your wagon analysis. Because you writing off Vaimes as town without an explanation was a giant head-scratcher trying to follow your logic.
I'm also typing horribly right now and am sorry if my posts are a bit incoherent at the moment.
Ultimately, Im expecting to get lynched and am trying to provide as much information before I do.
Where did I indicate that you thought I was 100% scum? Please quote the exact time I said that.
Also, are you just going to ignore my case against you, now that I've presented it? You strawmanned the entire thing as "saying I cast suspicion on you for voting me is scummy". That...doesn't actually address any of the meat of the case.
Yeah, gonna have to ask you to re-write this when you get a chance.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Easy.
I agree! It's part of what I didn't love about your post. Thanks for reminding me. You zero in on Vezo as super likely scum and do nothing to sell your argument but spill a ton of ink defending yourself from Iso. You even poke at Rod more than you do Vezo. There is no call to action to try and get him lynched just a parked read and focus elsewhere.
And for your reads wall you didn't give quotes for everyone. In fact you gave quotes for the ones where giving quotes would be least important as town (DBS and Rod) and the only other one was for Vezo and that link and explanation isn't particularly enlightening.
That's how I understood that post, I think it's pretty much the same.
Honestly, I'm not a good player. Im lucky. Its never mattered if I make good points or not, Ive won off pure luck in most of my games. My ability to form a read is irrelvant, because ive never done it well. Id link to all previous cases, but MAL is down.
I don't see the phrase "100%" anywhere in here. Is it invisible?
Now that we're done playing semantics, are you going to continue to ignore literally everything else I've said to/about you?
Another fine post substantiating my own feelings about Rumanshi.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I understand that you were trying to help but please don't answer questions asked of other players in the future.
Ah, so, "I'm a bad player so don't lynch me." Solid defense.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I think I mentioned before, but I don't care if I get lynched. I'm expecting to be lynched. I just wanted to leave behind my thoughts before I do get lynched. Because, when I flip, you'll see whether or not my intent was what you were. I am disgusted with your attitude of 'Oh, he's so totally definitely scum and I'm proud to have found this!' when it's not solid until a flip..