That was actually two seperate thoughts. "I would argue that Ruma's attitude is generally townie" being the first one, and the rest being the second. My point there was that pressuring him now (meaning literally interupting him from actively lurking to accuse him of actively lurking at this point in the game) is premature. If he is indeed purposefully not doing things to blend in, he hasn't been doing it long enough to accurately prove it at this point. When you are trying to make a case for active lurking, forcing them to do things is the exact opposite of what you wanna do.
That was what I was trying to say.
I think your wolf mindset is showing a bit.
Because what you're saying is true, provided your goal is just to make a good case against someone. The town mindset, however, is that when you make a case, you're making a guess, and that guess can be wrong. You're actively investigating someone, you're trying to figure them out. Making a case is part of that. You want to get people to react, see where it goes, all that stuff.
The town mindset isn't about making the best possible case in a vacuum, it's about making sure that case is accurate to best of your ability, and in that sense, letting someone active-lurk so your case is better and having them not provide content, reads, etc. is incredibly backwards.
This is a very good post. Saving something to make a case better later isn't villagery. Plus villagers should always be open to people revealing themselves as town with more posts. It's one of the hardest things to do in mafia, but admitting you're wrong and reevaluating a read with new information is incredibly important. You don't want to give scum a map on how to earn a town read, but you want to give people a chance to prove themselves.
I can understand how sentenza feels about grapefruit because I feel the same way. Basically he seems good enough that he'll be able to act towny even as scum. Which is why my read on him is based solely off of his masonry of killjoy, since I think killjoy is scum (and scum grapefruit wouldn't risk mason claiming with his partner imo).
Without that killjoy interaction I think he'd be null.
I think this is a bad/dangerous read. I don't think it's a read from scum since I have other reasons to look at mikey as town but I think it's a really dangerous sort of read to make. Scum fake claiming mason's with partners is a great way to distance from each other. Look at how much I've been able to not really give a read on KJ this game and still tell people not to push him because he's my mason buddy. And even if he were to flip scum (which he won't) I have that kind of argument to fall back upon.
I was ISO'ing Sentenza and Grapefruit while I asked those.
I didn't miss it, but couldn't recall which player it was about.
I mean, okay. It sounds like you are lying, but i can't actually prove that.
Rodemy what does scum Vaimes gain from lying about forgetting that Sentenza hasn't played before? What sort of goal does it accomplish? I agree from an outside PoV it seems like Vaimes would remember that but I can't see any angle he gains by pretending he doesn't. Especially given the angle of questioning he (claimed he) was going to pursue. It dosen't lead anywhere.
I don't understand the Dan town reads. I don't think he's scum or anything I just don't get the dan town reads. I've tried to play Vaimes game but don't see anything jumping out at me in:
Quote from Dan »
So I've skimmed a couple of times now, and have some brief notes. I don't intend to really try and pursue any lines of questioning from the first few pages in the game at this point, but I reserve the right to change my mind about that. I'm going to take another pass through today in further detail, but in the meanwhile, a bit of stream-of-consciousnessy crossection (and an unusual portrayal) of my thoughts:
Like there just isn't anything there. And yet for all the pushes on Vaimes no one jumped on this as a piece of evidence for him being scum? I'm confused.
Bronze sucks... Either need someone to jump me or to outpost sentenza... Both options are unappealing.
I know you don't mean anything by it, I just think that's how a few people interpreted it.
It's time for...
A READS LIST- WITH NO CONTEXT! (Context! context)
1. Dan-null
2. Ruma-town & a mason partner
3. Dawn-scum
4. Tubba-town
5. Vezok-scum
6. Huntziso-null
7. Rodemy-slight town
8. Dota-town, but has dropped off recently
9. Sentenza-starting to lean town
10. Vaimes-scum-upon-towny
11. Grape-barely town
12. Emcee-town
13. Killjoy-scum
Currently working hypothesis is a killjoy/dbs/vezok trio. It's possible that one of the three is actually lurking among inactives though (hopefully no more than that, as it's unfair even with only one)
Can you talk to me about your DBS read. I think I can understand the Vezok one, and I know the KJ one (it's not worth it, he's my mason buddy!) but I can't wrap my head around the DBS one. She's posted like a grand total of 5 times and the only thing I can remember her doing is misrepresenting rodemy's catch.
Your tubba town read would be nice to hear as well.
first things first, I read people based on what they have, so if you have 2 towny posts and nothing else you're getting town read. If you have 50 towny posts and 50 scummy posts, you're still null.
the tubba read is kind of a snap judgement considering they had like... 2 posts but their entrance was really smooth. It's a kind of matter-of-fact "this is where I'm at right now", which shows they've been putting effort into solving the game despite not contributing (scum typically would do the reverse, contribute without putting effort into solving the game). I see the exact same thing from dan's post, which is what I'm town reading there as well.
DBS is an interesting case and it's hinging entirely on partnerships, specifically killjoy. I pointed it out in my BigPost but Killjoy's attack on vaimes feels like it's (perhaps subconsciously) in response to vaimes>DBS. Ignoring partnerships entirely I'd say scum was more like killjoy/vezok/dota, or something. Iso/dan/tubba are possibilities there as well. I don't really see the "PAT ON THE BACK IS SCUMMY LUL" argument, and DBS was on the inactive side in Off the Grid as well. A lot of my solving is banking on killjoy being scum, but it all comes back to the 1v1 between him and vaimes and like I said vaimes seems to be too over-the-top and baity to actually be scum.
I can understand how sentenza feels about grapefruit because I feel the same way. Basically he seems good enough that he'll be able to act towny even as scum. Which is why my read on him is based solely off of his masonry of killjoy, since I think killjoy is scum (and scum grapefruit wouldn't risk mason claiming with his partner imo).
Without that killjoy interaction I think he'd be null.
I think this is a bad/dangerous read. I don't think it's a read from scum since I have other reasons to look at mikey as town but I think it's a really dangerous sort of read to make. Scum fake claiming mason's with partners is a great way to distance from each other. Look at how much I've been able to not really give a read on KJ this game and still tell people not to push him because he's my mason buddy. And even if he were to flip scum (which he won't) I have that kind of argument to fall back upon.
town reading you for behavior you could easily make as scum is dangerous as well.
@MIkey I wasn't asking for a town read. Just think that one is particularly dangerous. Not sure why you're bringing up the other part though. Basically every read on me at this point has the hedge that "I want Grape to be town because tots reasonable, but he's definitely not outside his scumrange."
On your Tubba read how much of it is the specific content of his post versus him actually making a content packed catchup post?
The DBS read is really cool though. I'll reread that section at some point. I definitely thought you were making the "Pat on the back must be scummy" argument.
@MIkey I wasn't asking for a town read. Just think that one is particularly dangerous. Not sure why you're bringing up the other part though. Basically every read on me at this point has the hedge that "I want Grape to be town because tots reasonable, but he's definitely not outside his scumrange."
On your Tubba read how much of it is the specific content of his post versus him actually making a content packed catchup post?
The DBS read is really cool though. I'll reread that section at some point. I definitely thought you were making the "Pat on the back must be scummy" argument.
tubba read is probably really close to 1/3 content 2/3 existence (lol at putting fractions on something like this but it gets the point across). He specifically called out vezok picking for some thoughts which I don't feel good about obviously, but the rest of it doesn't raise any warning flags and isn't something that was just pulled out of nowhere.
that world is too bizarre to think about. It has to be t/s.
Why does it have to be? What would be bizarre about that world?
I've seen lots of 1v1s in my time playing this game. That's not a t/t argument. T/t arguments always get heated, they butt heads, and it becomes irrational. This was a shade-flinging fest, and it's not entirely clear who won. T/S, definitely.
I'm not buying either of these arguments... Don't think it's because Mikey is scum, but I need to reread him at some point to be sure.
I particularly don't like town reading Tubba for making a content filled post. I know there was a significant portion of that read that was about the content but putting someone in as a reasonably strong town read just because they made a post that gives opinions doesn't work. In fact I've been burnt the other way on that before.
Also I think the personalities of the 1v1'ers makes a huge difference on how the showdown goes. At least as much as the alignments. I'm the sort who once I get into one will ride it through as either alignment and get heated. But there are some people who will basically never get heated. It's just not in their personality range.
Sentenza's sort by postcount post is not one I like at all. Why cut off at DBS? Why does Dota's 5 extra posts put him in a different group? What about Vezok's 5 more than that? The cutoff feels very arbitrary. As do the teams. I realize this looks like OMGUS since I was a common member of the non low poster teams but it's an arbitrary set of groups to me.
@GF: Can I help you? You have had a window to ask me questions/prompt me to flesh out my reads on the game, and chose not to do so. FWIW, really not reading KJ's progression into the joke realization as a "genius bit of damage control." Also, do you disagree with my assessment that Tubba's "content" post really didn't have all that much content to it?
Mikey: In a hypothetical land where KJ flipped town, right now, with no further interactions, how would that adjust your evaluation of the gamestate?
Will you further expand on why you think both KJ & Vaimes are more likely to be scum than town, if it doesn't have to do with their dialogue? In particular, I don't really think Vaimes is scummy from the interactions you laid out there. I also don't think that S/S is a likely alignment pairing there, and by extension I don't think this is a good time for two scumbuddies to really have an extended dialogue based off of one minor point. I think T/T is the most likely outcome of that interaction.
Lastly, has your read on these two progressed at all? I know it seems like I'm kind of laying into you on this, but there's good reason:
I think you're town
I think KJ's town
By your own admission, KJ's flip will impact your read on numerous other players
This is easily the most detailed work done in the game so far
@Vezok: Let's assume KJ isn't a mason (@all let's assume no one is a mason, because all these claims are nonsense until there's some definitive action taken by multiple masons in a small window of time). What do you think about Emcee's case against him?
Also, ruuuuuuuuude. We were JUST buddies! Not posting as scum is a thing that I did back in the day, however, so good call.
@GF: Can I help you? You have had a window to ask me questions/prompt me to flesh out my reads on the game, and chose not to do so. FWIW, really not reading KJ's progression into the joke realization as a "genius bit of damage control." Also, do you disagree with my assessment that Tubba's "content" post really didn't have all that much content to it?
I have to admit I was definitely more interested in the reaction to your post than the post itself. The number of people who just dropped in and gave you town reads stood out more than your post itself. Especially Vaimes game of what was townie in the first paragraph. I'm not really wanting to comment on Tubba's post right now. I'm currently fascinated by Mikey's reaction to it. I think I largely agree with your assessment but it wasn't my first instinct.
And neither am I which is why in addition to knowing he's town b/c masons, I read that as stubbornly belatedly realizing that he missed the joke. Which I took as your read as well given you locked him in as your top town read. I don't want to fight you on that! I like the read!
or I guess if anyone can dig into whether or not dan is good at "performing" as scum, I'd be interested in hearing it
Let me save you/whoever accepts your request some time.
NOPE.
---
Sentenza is like an alien. Very intelligent species that has come to us from outside of our planet, having experienced a variety of other worlds and bringing that knowledge into our universe. Now that she has descended, she realizes that her base assumptions are incorrect, which gives off a "holier than thou" kind of vibe. Direct, analyzing using optimal play to base her assumptions off of.
Another issue is that I feel like you're not being very aware of other possible interpretations of your play.
Can you explain why you think that someone who was less aware than average about possible interpretations of their play would be more likely to be mafia? I'd think they'd be more likely to be a villager, since villagers don't really need to think about how their posts could be interpreted, they just have their own thoughts that they post, whereas wolves are naturally more concerned with how their posts are interpreted, since their entire game revolves around the thread's perception of them. Maybe you can explain your PoV here? Even if your accusation is true, and I don't really see that it is, why would that be something you'd ding Vaimes for in this case?
You appear to have defined derp-clear here. I am anticipating KJ's response.
@Vezok: Let's assume KJ isn't a mason (@all let's assume no one is a mason, because all these claims are nonsense until there's some definitive action taken by multiple masons in a small window of time). What do you think about Emcee's case against him?
Also, ruuuuuuuuude. We were JUST buddies! Not posting as scum is a thing that I did back in the day, however, so good call.
I'm having a bit of a hard time engaging in this game, both because of RL and the flow of the game itself, but I'd try to do more.
Flimsy case at best. I've played with town killjoy and he seemed to play exactly like here. I wouldn't be surprised if killjoy is actually scum as he is still in my POE, but nothing made me think he is scum.
Also, I think dan is really townie. His carefree attitude is indicative of not being afraid to post and his posts don't seem edited. Scum ganderin is much more afraid to post and his posts don't read like stream of consciousness.
Private Mod Note
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@Dan If KJ wasn't my buddy I'd be torn. I think his unartural process on Vamies comes from a town place but I agree with Sentenza that his one on Ruma definitely feels more scummy. I don't see town!KJ being so upset about people directing Ruma to do things. But I know he's town and his Vaimes reaction hits me the right way. What do you think it means for his alignment?
I also think thread flow indicates KJ is town with Vaimes for the way the debate around them has swirled. I can explain if you want, but it's unrelated to your question and I'm bad at explaining my thread flow reads.
Tubba I'm not sure that post could sound more stilted. Apart from Vaimes maybe being scummier than KJ what are you feeling about this game?
What do you make of Rod?
I was up way past my bedtime on that one and I'm a little subpar this morning.
I'm actually pretty confused about this game. I felt like my brain expanded once I realized the implications of masons. It makes a difficult part of the game, seem even harder.
I'd place rod in a lean town pile. His pushes seem genuine and he's willing to engage on them. They don't feel like an opportunistic attack on someone, more like an attempt to get to the bottom of something that pinged him.
Can you point to anything that makes them not seem opportunistic?
Can you also expand on the bold text please.
Fair enough on the late night post being stilted. I've made some real howlers at 3am...
Rod's ISO as a whole looks like him working through his thoughts. Something pings him and he runs along with it to see where it goes. He never makes a big attack on anyone, just states how he thinks/feels. He's not pushing a narrative on anyone, and he seems willing to talk about his reads.
This is my first game with masons, I googled it and thought it seemed pretty straightforward. Rules wise it is, but as the game progressed it occurred to me that play wise it was anything but. It's like it adds six more wines to the menu. Day one is the hardest part of the game for me, because there's no mechanical truth. Everything is speculation and feelings. In a normal game, you could watch for "buddying actions" to winkle out somebody's alignment. With masons, there's another layer going on that means the opposite of what it usually does.
@Dan If KJ wasn't my buddy I'd be torn. I think his unartural process on Vamies comes from a town place but I agree with Sentenza that his one on Ruma definitely feels more scummy. I don't see town!KJ being so upset about people directing Ruma to do things. But I know he's town and his Vaimes reaction hits me the right way. What do you think it means for his alignment?
I also think thread flow indicates KJ is town with Vaimes for the way the debate around them has swirled. I can explain if you want, but it's unrelated to your question and I'm bad at explaining my thread flow reads.
Also enjoy bonnaroo! I've always wanted to go.
I'd listen to your thread flow theory. My initial read on Vaimes/KJ was t/t, but I felt Vaimes was too defensive over the course of the interaction.
You voted him for active lurking. You literally say so earlier in this post. Why is this the first mention of the other reasons for voting him?
Killjoy.
I voted him for active lurking, and then I left my vote on him when he responded to that vote with "thanks for voting me for having a life!" which is not even close to what I (or anyone) said.
Since those reasons now exist, I added them to my scumread of him so that people can see where my current, updated read is coming from. Those reasons obviously don't apply to why I made the original vote, because the post Ruma made afterwards didn't exist yet.
Please stop reading all of my posts through scum-tinted lenses and work with me here.
Hm. MaybE I am doing that. I feel. like. Overly certain that you're not town. Enough so that I'm willing to doubt my bias here.
Tell you what. I'm going to leave you alone for the time being, and focus on others. I'll work on rereading you and seeing if I can figure out your alignment in a more unbiased way.
I'm currently at the point where I'm reasonably confident that vaimes/killjoy is t/s. The problem I have right now is that vaimes is acting over-the-top-scummy to the point where it's not scummy and certainly engaging other players. I still dislike killjoy's town read of me- he says he's getting "newb town" vibes, which kind of feels like a forced read, since the only newbery I've done so far is mistake mason cover (my bad!).
hmmm I think you still haven't answered me if you claimed or not.
also, how did you come to the conclusion that Vaimes/Killjoy are t/s? Killjoy had Vaimes on a townlean and Vezok as a suspect iirc.
No I've had Vaimes as scum for the whole game so far. But yeah I'm suspicious of Vezok.
@KJ I don't have a firm grasp of his meta but enough to know Ruma is unafraid to ruffles feathers. In fact to the point where if he didn't behavw loudly it would be notable.
Why are you putting to much stock in the reputation of someone you've never played with?
So? That doesn't mean anything. IDK how the town/scum spread of posting memes goes, but maybe there was towniness in Grape's meme. IDK. It wasn't obvious.
maybe there was towniness in Grape's meme
maybe there was towniness in Grape's meme
maybe there was towniness in Grape's meme
maybe there was towniness in Grape's meme
maybe there was towniness in Grape's meme
maybe there was towniness in Grape's meme
I feel like you may be tunneling too.
So you have no experience in Mafia like games at all? Werewolf? The Resistance? Secret Hitler? Even playing those games could grant skills that could carry over into this game.
I echo Vaimes's 390 in that you're posting like someone who's played before.
Can you explain how you're using the phrase "derp-clear"? From what I've read, a derp-clear is basically an appeal to ignorance; that is, if you took it at face value, someone asking mid D1 if information roles get a n0 check in this setup would always be Vanilla Town this game, since it would be extremely unlikely for three people in wolfchat to not reference the setup at any point. It's essentially someone clearing themselves by derping about an obvious fact that anyone with an informed position (wolves, town power roles in some cases) would not plausibly miss. It's somewhat of a dubious idea, since even in the relatively few games I've read, I've seen villagers make some astoundingly derpy basic errors about easily available public information. Nobody's perfect, etc.
In any case, I don't see how any of that applies to Grape's meme or Vaimes's non-read on it. Explain?
I suppose I used the wrong word there. Snap-clear probably is a better word there. Or perhaps it means "to clear someone for being obvious town". It's kinda a little bit of both. I was clearing him on newbtells.
Edit: You put it really well later when you say he's 'pure'. That's a big part of the snap-clear. Obvious purity due to being new. He doesn't appear to know what he needs to lie about, and he doesn't appear to be trying to.
Another issue is that I feel like you're not being very aware of other possible interpretations of your play.
Can you explain why you think that someone who was less aware than average about possible interpretations of their play would be more likely to be mafia? I'd think they'd be more likely to be a villager, since villagers don't really need to think about how their posts could be interpreted, they just have their own thoughts that they post, whereas wolves are naturally more concerned with how their posts are interpreted, since their entire game revolves around the thread's perception of them. Maybe you can explain your PoV here? Even if your accusation is true, and I don't really see that it is, why would that be something you'd ding Vaimes for in this case?
You are correct, that is a towntell. Its stuff like this, when I start thinking towntells are scumtells that I start needing to take a step back.
So sentenza is lock town and a better player than I am; in her first game. I should really up my effort this game but I kind of can't be bothered right now. Just finished hosting a 6 hour DnD session on discord (that I woke up at 6am for...) and cannot think straight at the moment.
Thoughts on some of her posts: I like the focus on KJ. He's town because he's my buddy (or is he?) but the work is good and I can't fault the process. I especially like the expected reaction breakdowns to KJ slowly coming around to the idea that Vaimes giving me a D1 pass was a joke. I would add though that KJ does look better when he finally realizes he might be tunneling and asks everyone for other opinions. Maybe it was a genius bit of damage control but it reads well.
On Rumanashi in general: Ruma is a unique player. Off the Grid three was a game where town fell behind but pulled itself together for an awesome come from behind victory largely on the backs of Mikey, DBS, and Ruma solving it. The problem is the game got tense. Very tense. Ruma is someone who has expressed a belief that trolling as town and generating reactions is a preferred way to play the game. And there was some tension because of that throughout the game. Because of that bit of self meta that has been confirmed by DBS and another player in OtG3 it's really hard to read Ruma. Obvious trolling things like the flashy aggressive entrance are part of the experience and being aloof goes along with it. But you can't just write him off as town because he's playing in a "trolly" fashion because he's aware of the meta read on him. So you have to try and not read the "trolly" parts as AI at all and look for meaning behind them.
I'm not Mikey but I'd guess his warning is stemming from feeling like Ruma was trolling last game and is trolling here and that makes him town. I'd counter his play here isn't in a way that moves the gamestate. He's being dismissive not in a reaction generating way but in a you can't read me way. He's also not doing anything that is moving the game forward at all. Vaimes called it active lurking and I think that fits. I like the shadowboxing characterization Sentenza used. Generating content about nothing that goes nowhere. And I may be misremembering but I didn't feel like that was the case in OtG3. Or I may be being biased by my personal opinions on that sort of playstyle, but I think there is scum intent and it shows in the Vaimes push. The selective reading is another point of evidence but that could just actually be missing things.
This post actually sparks several questions/thoughts for me.
Firstly, while I do agree her questions seem to have a town bent to them, she is not lock town. I am EXTREMELY paranoid of new players that have this level of skill. She could just be town, or she could be acting like it. Time will tell for sure.
You said earlier that you knew Ruma by reputation. In this, you cite specific examples of his play in a game. If you remember playing in that game with him and him doing the things you are saying... why did you say you knew him by reputation? Why did you not cite this game? Also I looked it up, it was OTG4 not 3.
I wanted to make the same points that grape did, but he beat me to it.
Off the Grid Rumanashi was fighting scum shadow and mostly winning. He is good at reaction baiting, but he isn't doing anything this game to generate reads.
In regards to Tubba, he asked me a question that I said I will answer after Rodemy answers my question. He totally forgot about it. That has a higher chance of coming from scum than from town.
@KJ: top 3 scum reads are Ruamanshi, Tubba and the third is a lot closer to the null level so I'm not as confident, but it's mikey or ganderin.
Which points that Grape made did you also want to make?
That was actually two seperate thoughts. "I would argue that Ruma's attitude is generally townie" being the first one, and the rest being the second. My point there was that pressuring him now (meaning literally interupting him from actively lurking to accuse him of actively lurking at this point in the game) is premature. If he is indeed purposefully not doing things to blend in, he hasn't been doing it long enough to accurately prove it at this point. When you are trying to make a case for active lurking, forcing them to do things is the exact opposite of what you wanna do.
That was what I was trying to say.
I think your wolf mindset is showing a bit.
Because what you're saying is true, provided your goal is just to make a good case against someone. The town mindset, however, is that when you make a case, you're making a guess, and that guess can be wrong. You're actively investigating someone, you're trying to figure them out. Making a case is part of that. You want to get people to react, see where it goes, all that stuff.
The town mindset isn't about making the best possible case in a vacuum, it's about making sure that case is accurate to best of your ability, and in that sense, letting someone active-lurk so your case is better and having them not provide content, reads, etc. is incredibly backwards.
You're going to find this incredibly frustrating in the future should we play together again. Cuz unfortunately that's just how I think sometimes. I'd say it's probably because I was tunneling on him and was searching for reasons for him to be scum, but idk.
So I've skimmed a couple of times now, and have some brief notes. I don't intend to really try and pursue any lines of questioning from the first few pages in the game at this point, but I reserve the right to change my mind about that. I'm going to take another pass through today in further detail, but in the meanwhile, a bit of stream-of-consciousnessy crossection (and an unusual portrayal) of my thoughts:
@KJ (Hey, the joke was a joke. You've missed the obvious for some reason. anyways, this read is a lock, fight me), Mikey (by comparison to what's going on with the rest of the town, his KJ/Vaimes post is a herculean amount of effort that didn't need to be posted in such length/detail to get his point across. I felt like I was able to see the lightbulb come on in his head) for town
GF (he strikes me as the only person that is actively trying to push wagons for the benefit of the town, and I strongly agree on his point regarding KJ/Ruma), Vezok (his scum meta normally has much larger machinations at play, and town play should account for bouncing back and forth off of ideas [some of which are normally bad] until he figures something out that has merit and can actually stick)leaning town
Sentenza for my really really wanting her to be town, but between some gut feelings I have that she's not necessarily trying to discern mindsets and is moreso just attacking faulty base mafia theory/logic (which really appeals to me), I can't put her as highly as GF and vezok, but still leaning town as well
Vaimes & Rodemy for confusing me, but should be left around to provide content + sort themselves out (Vaimes, in particular, is rubbing me the wrong way, but I think that I could be coloring that from how firmly I believe KJ is town. Still, something is bothering me on a gut level where I don't think his play is matching the town game I have visualized for him)
Random aside: hey @Vaimes, how you feeling about those three early reads at this point of Dota, Rodemy & Vezok?
Iso for null based on having 0 posts
Dota for null based on my not having a sufficient read on them yet
DBS for slight scumlean (I think more than one person has posted that this is not out of her town norm, which I am attempting to factor into my assessment). The first post pat-on-the-back has been discussed, but I generally disagree with a few of her ideas, similarly think she's not progressing the gamestate, but is at least actively providing feedback by comparison to Tubba
Tubba for being overrated based off of one post that Sentenza was correct in her analysis of, I think Vaimes beat me to this one somewhere in page 4-5 though. One catchup post to seem productive (I am embarrassingly familiar with this), some generic one-line posts asking low-impact questions, not progressing the gamestate
Ruma (horrible push on Sentenza, frustration doesn't read as genuine to me, can it really even be active lurking when you have one meaningful post [that really just lashes out against half of the game, without any lines of questioning to build upon his existing ideas] and don't really make any attempt to further the gamestate?) for the only player I'd be willing to place a vote on at this point
I, too, like to sort out the town players first, and leave the scum to be figured out afterwards, especially in setups where we know nothing silly is going to happen. So I can't necessarily get on board with the people saying that the +town method of scumhunting isn't an effective one.
Hopefully a votecount shows up sometime today. Also hopefully I figure out if I can commit to what I've just said about putting a vote on Ruma.
What is the point Grape made about me and Ruma that you agree with?
Is your read on Vezok solely meta based?
And then one wolf gamely giving it the old college try inside Grapefruit21/Kliljoy.
The second most likely world would be the relatively boring "lurksack wolves" world where "sort by postcount, become ww expert" would be basiclaly correct, and all the wolves are below DoTArchon's name there.
A substantial step down from those two would be two or more wolves in the higher range of posters. Grapefruit21/Rodemy, Killjoy/Mikey, something like that, and then one in the lurkers. I don't see this as very likely at this point.
...are you SURE you're new? This is like... fairly advanced mafia theory. It's not something I'd equate with someone who's read some games.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I changed my mind.
1. Dan - town for reasons outlined before.
2. Ruma - scum for previously stated reasons.
3. Dawn - neutral. I'm bad at reading dawn and there's no way I can formulate a read this early.
4. Tubba - scummy. His posts read like someone with a hidden agenda, but it's subtle. I haven't played with him before so I can't make a concrete read right now
5. Vezok - I'm town.
6. Huntziso - no posts.
7. Rodemy - town, although very paranoid.
8. Dota - his first few posts were townie, but he dropped of the map
9. Sentenza - Very very town. They way she approaches this game is great and I don't think scum in their first game would play like this.
10. Vaimes - Pretty townie. I'm wary he might be fooling us, so my read isn't as concrete, but I'm liking him so far.
11. Grape - Town. He is trying to solve the game. Scum grape sits back a lot more and posts less.
12. Emcee - Scum. He seems different from off the grid, less confruntational and less sure of himself. I also his defense of rumanashi.
13. Killjoy - Slight town. I'm not that good at reading killjoy, but he seems townie enough.
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@KJ your first question for me is kind of answered by the second one. I haven't played with Ruma but I read OtG34 and knew his reputation before that. So it's one I'm comfortable making despite never having played with Ruma. I figured having read one game still fell under knowing by reputation. Anyway I've bever played with seppel but I know enough about seppel by reputation that I would have a meta read if I found myself in a game with seppel. I trust things I hear when they are from mulyiple sources and specific.
Why are you nervous about clearing Sentenza for playing confidently and "well" (as in knowing mafia theory) in a first game but happy to clear Mikey who isn't new for being confused about mason stuff? You're right I shouldn't lock clear her but she's a heavy town read.
Once Dan and Vezok answer your questions about my points on Ruma did my stuff change your opinion at all?
Fwiw I read about 10 games before I started playing and garnered raised eyebrows and disbelief that it was my first game. Reading well played games gives you a real leg up when you start playing. I'd also played in person mafia before but not with gaming types. Anyway my point is either it's a gimmick account who won't own up to being new till post game or an actual new player. I'm not really sure what the pointed questions about the genuiness of the newness will accomplish.
@Vezok can you talk more about the Emcee Mikey read. I'm seeing town mikey dwspite seeing a noticably different mikey.
@Tubba I'm bad at articulating it but basically if they were t/s I think an alternative other than the one Vaimes was pushing would have popped up. No one but Vaimes, KJ, and Ruma have any sort of widespread suspicion. Suspicion on Vaimes and KJ rose up at the same time and after Vaimes turned his attention to Ruma suspicion grew there. Generally you'd expect other scum to try and arouse suspicion elsewhere but the entire thread (only excluding like Iso, Dan, and kind of tubba) was content scum read one or both of Vaimes and KJ for about 2.5 days of real time. I don't think that happens if they are t/s.
I'm comfortable keeping my vote on Vaimes. I don't like this whole "just leave me alive for a day and I'll prove I'm towny then." It reeks of too much self meta and doesn't contribute.
I just want to say that the ISO function is making me really mad. Who designed this crap?
This post seems to come from a mindset of "I want to push this wagon, but others don't so I'm going to shade".
in off the grid 4 rumanshi said somewhere that when he's town "he trolls" or something to that extent. He wasn't trolling in the beginning (fmpov) but as the game went on he got progressively more sarcastic.
that's true, though I've also seen him as careful town. it's more like he's a carefree player.
yes, carefree is another good way of putting it. Either way, rumanshi's tone is solidly in line with what I saw last game (noting that 1 game does not necessarily establish a meta)
As far as the mason stuff goes:
If town fakeclaim mason, we can tentatively clear players based on the nightkill. Assuming mafia is actively trying to hit the masons (and they should, that's 3 confirmed town players who know each other before lylo), when a player flips we can assume that mafia thought they were masons and thus their fake "mason buddies" can be assumed to be town. For example, if I die in the night, Rumanshi is more likely to be town. If grapefruit dies in the night, Killjoy is more likely to be town.
Ultimately I'm wasting a lot of words discussing mechanics, but I find town cover to be a super cool concept and I've seen it work well in all games I've played with it, so I support it here.
Not saying you're wrong for disliking it, just saying maybe you haven't considered all the benefits yet.
I had this exact same thought and didn't talk about it in thread, because that would make mafia more likely to shoot one of them just for WIFOM.
This seems like mikey is aiming for townie points for strategy, when he should know that posting this would just create more WIFOM.
And his switch to killjoy seems incredibly oportunistic. He saw that the Vaimes wagon wasn't moving and switched gears completely to killjoy.
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@Tubba I'm bad at articulating it but basically if they were t/s I think an alternative other than the one Vaimes was pushing would have popped up. No one but Vaimes, KJ, and Ruma have any sort of widespread suspicion. Suspicion on Vaimes and KJ rose up at the same time and after Vaimes turned his attention to Ruma suspicion grew there. Generally you'd expect other scum to try and arouse suspicion elsewhere but the entire thread (only excluding like Iso, Dan, and kind of tubba) was content scum read one or both of Vaimes and KJ for about 2.5 days of real time. I don't think that happens if they are t/s.
In a world of Ruma scum and killjoy and Vaimes town, the scum will push for KJ and Vaimes because if one is lynched the town will probably chain lynch the other one. This works even if Ruma isn't scum. Optimal scum strategy would involve split pushing the wagons to make it look like a t/s scenario.
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@Vezok That's why I don't think that KJ and Vaimes are T/S.
I'll look at your mikey case closer in the morning but it you went from being less sure of himself and less confrontational as reasons to scum read him to throwing shade and not being as laid back as your main points. With a side of him voicing wine about mechanics being a bad thing thrown in for good measure. Which doesn't feel like a consistent read. Again I'm tired and not 100% sure I'm reading all of it right but FOS: Vezok
#39 He askes dota if he is always this awkward. I will agree with this line of thinking. I too thought DoTa was being extremely defensive.
his next too posts are raising suspicion on another player as well: Vaimes. Both playing off of my paranoia, or so it seems.
#67 "There's a reason to Ruman" Um.. um? Okay so if you guys ARE masons, which is what this could be implying, then why townvibe him so early off of.. 2 posts (8 words total all of which are NAI)
(fun fact, while trying to iso ruma, i tried copy and pasting 2 different people who spelled out the full name. Both were wrong)
#72 is a poor reply to grape calling his Ruma read "Sketchy." KJ. Babe. You know why.
I know you know why. Like. You can't townread someone for the two posts that ruma posted. You just can't. And then you can't claim "reasons"
#81 is gross.
"What do you know of ruman that means he could be doing this as scum?"
FIRST OFF: No.
SECOND: Who said anything about ruman being scum? Here, lemme be not lazy and quote the post here:
We must be thinking of very different robots for the whole gun to your head thing making you think of robots. You're more HAL9000, I'm more robo caller.
And you can keep your rumanashi reason, it's still sketchy even for a preliminary read.
Follow up to the question Vaimes asked; how is a personal question like "Are you always this awkward?" help you nail down a mindset?
hm How is it sketchy?
An you don't think how people answer questions links to mindset?
Because I can read Rumanashi's 2 posts and from the little I know of Ruma be confident that he could do both as either alignment.
And it can be helpful sure, but given the question you asked I don't think you're going to get a helpful answer. And given that it was slightly OoG and personal I wouldn't be surprised if your question didn't get an answer or got an unnaturally hostile one because of the question you asked. Which several other people have already hinted at.
More importantly just replying to my question of "how does this question help?" with a generic "answers connect to mindsets" doesn't really answer anything. Why do you think a personal question will help you get a grip on his energetic early game that you wouldn't get by instead looking at Dota's recent games?
What do you know of Ruman that means he could be doing this as scum?
And I RARELY look at recent games.
THAT is a leading question. Grape mentions Ruman can pst those 2 posts as EITHER alignment, but Killjoy just asks why ruman could be doing it as scum, pushing that grape thinks Ruman is scum. Just because Grape disagrees with the town read, doesn't mean he thinks Ruman is scum, but Killjoy implies falsely that he does.
I like His 113. Possible bussing for such a callout though.
The exchange between the two is hard to follow. But i am starting to think KJ IS a good start.
vote killjoy
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That was actually two seperate thoughts. "I would argue that Ruma's attitude is generally townie" being the first one, and the rest being the second. My point there was that pressuring him now (meaning literally interupting him from actively lurking to accuse him of actively lurking at this point in the game) is premature. If he is indeed purposefully not doing things to blend in, he hasn't been doing it long enough to accurately prove it at this point. When you are trying to make a case for active lurking, forcing them to do things is the exact opposite of what you wanna do.
That was what I was trying to say.
I think your wolf mindset is showing a bit.
Because what you're saying is true, provided your goal is just to make a good case against someone. The town mindset, however, is that when you make a case, you're making a guess, and that guess can be wrong. You're actively investigating someone, you're trying to figure them out. Making a case is part of that. You want to get people to react, see where it goes, all that stuff.
The town mindset isn't about making the best possible case in a vacuum, it's about making sure that case is accurate to best of your ability, and in that sense, letting someone active-lurk so your case is better and having them not provide content, reads, etc. is incredibly backwards.
This is a very good post. Saving something to make a case better later isn't villagery. Plus villagers should always be open to people revealing themselves as town with more posts. It's one of the hardest things to do in mafia, but admitting you're wrong and reevaluating a read with new information is incredibly important. You don't want to give scum a map on how to earn a town read, but you want to give people a chance to prove themselves.
I can understand how sentenza feels about grapefruit because I feel the same way. Basically he seems good enough that he'll be able to act towny even as scum. Which is why my read on him is based solely off of his masonry of killjoy, since I think killjoy is scum (and scum grapefruit wouldn't risk mason claiming with his partner imo).
Without that killjoy interaction I think he'd be null.
I think this is a bad/dangerous read. I don't think it's a read from scum since I have other reasons to look at mikey as town but I think it's a really dangerous sort of read to make. Scum fake claiming mason's with partners is a great way to distance from each other. Look at how much I've been able to not really give a read on KJ this game and still tell people not to push him because he's my mason buddy. And even if he were to flip scum (which he won't) I have that kind of argument to fall back upon.
I was ISO'ing Sentenza and Grapefruit while I asked those.
I didn't miss it, but couldn't recall which player it was about.
I mean, okay. It sounds like you are lying, but i can't actually prove that.
Rodemy what does scum Vaimes gain from lying about forgetting that Sentenza hasn't played before? What sort of goal does it accomplish? I agree from an outside PoV it seems like Vaimes would remember that but I can't see any angle he gains by pretending he doesn't. Especially given the angle of questioning he (claimed he) was going to pursue. It dosen't lead anywhere.
Sentenza, have you played with or spoken to Grapefruit before this game?
What's your current read on him?
We all know she is new. It was established in the first 2 pages. So this question is out of place.
@vaimes why is this a question? What info did you hope to gather from it and why specifically grape?
The lead in is weird. Asking if she has talked to grape before the game or played with him before. and then asking for a read on him. What does the former have to do with the latter? Were you hoping for a meta read? It sounds like you were leading her into giving a meta read for some reason.
Like.. almost coaching, but it backfired.
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Vezok's suspicion of me is weak enough that I'm not even sure I should answer it. I think it's important to note that I know mechanical discussion is wifom and I said as much in the post ("Ultimately I'm wasting a lot of words talking about mechanics") and I'd really rather not get town read for something I could easily have done as a wolf.
I think I said this in OTG, but I don't "try to get town read," even though good townies should be trying to act towny. All my effort goes into solving the game and town reading others and not really worrying about how I present myself. Yes, I'm playing differently this game. I'm trying out a different playstyle and being a bit more cautious (for reasons unrelated to mafia on this forum). That being said, I'm still suss enough of killjoy that, in the event he flips town, I have to re-evaluate basically the entire thread. There's still no way that argument was t/t and it's unlikely it was s/s because reasons and unless the re-eval turns up something fruitful I'm absolutely going after vaimes next day. That's not going to happen though.
Most likely explanation is that my killjoy/dbs/vezok poe is close enough to the truth that vezok is trying to start a wagon on me lol.
On top of that, the whole argument between dota and I was about how he is distancing himself from Sentz (his argument is that sentz has no postcount and is new so he is voting her), and vaimes chimes in on dota being scummy AND WE EVEN TALK ABOUT IT.
How can you call me out for my dota read when YOU haven't even read dotas interaction with Sentz? If you had looked at it YOU would have known sentz is new.
There is a huge disconnect there.
._. Am i being paranoid again?
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Rod... Vaimes explained that. He was wondering if I was slipping buddies by using she and her pronouns for sentenza. He retracted the question when he saw that exchange in the thread and modified it to nust be give a read on me. I don't see how you can walk away from that not feeling good about Vaimes here.
What does scum!vaimes gain from forgetting I'd (soft) asked senteza her preferred pronouns and trying to catch a slip before walking it back without a challenge over it? Yours came later iirc
On top of that, the whole argument between dota and I was about how he is distancing himself from Sentz (his argument is that sentz has no postcount and is new so he is voting her), and vaimes chimes in on dota being scummy AND WE EVEN TALK ABOUT IT.
How can you call me out for my dota read when YOU haven't even read dotas interaction with Sentz? If you had looked at it YOU would have known sentz is new.
There is a huge disconnect there.
._. Am i being paranoid again?
I agree it's weird but I don't see a scum benefit to his line of questioning. I see town!vaimes thinking he has a slip, getting excited, and then dropping it as he continues reading. Which is within his range but the act looks townie. And forgetting and remembering without correction while weird speaks to a real and therefor townie process.
@Mikey I take it you don't find my thread flow argument persuasive then? Because I have a reasonably strong town read on Vaimes and KJ is my buddy so I'm pretty sure that was t/t.
Idk. I get gut feelings. Weird vibes. Nobody follows them, but i tend to find scum that way. I still feel like Vaimes is pretending to read the game.
if THAT was his whole reasoning, he could have been fishing for masons or even implying you two are scum together.. there are plenty of reasons for him to ask that question as scum... but he forgot sentz was new and i think that is a slip.
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Vezok's suspicion of me is weak enough that I'm not even sure I should answer it. I think it's important to note that I know mechanical discussion is wifom and I said as much in the post ("Ultimately I'm wasting a lot of words talking about mechanics") and I'd really rather not get town read for something I could easily have done as a wolf.
I think I said this in OTG, but I don't "try to get town read," even though good townies should be trying to act towny. All my effort goes into solving the game and town reading others and not really worrying about how I present myself. Yes, I'm playing differently this game. I'm trying out a different playstyle and being a bit more cautious (for reasons unrelated to mafia on this forum). That being said, I'm still suss enough of killjoy that, in the event he flips town, I have to re-evaluate basically the entire thread. There's still no way that argument was t/t and it's unlikely it was s/s because reasons and unless the re-eval turns up something fruitful I'm absolutely going after vaimes next day. That's not going to happen though.
Most likely explanation is that my killjoy/dbs/vezok poe is close enough to the truth that vezok is trying to start a wagon on me lol.
I don't want to sound like I'm tunneling, but that line almost always comes from scum. Dismiss a case as bad so that you don't have to answer to it.
I wanted to kill rumanashi first, but I changed my mind.
vote Mikey
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Vezok's suspicion of me is weak enough that I'm not even sure I should answer it. I think it's important to note that I know mechanical discussion is wifom and I said as much in the post ("Ultimately I'm wasting a lot of words talking about mechanics") and I'd really rather not get town read for something I could easily have done as a wolf.
I think I said this in OTG, but I don't "try to get town read," even though good townies should be trying to act towny. All my effort goes into solving the game and town reading others and not really worrying about how I present myself. Yes, I'm playing differently this game. I'm trying out a different playstyle and being a bit more cautious (for reasons unrelated to mafia on this forum). That being said, I'm still suss enough of killjoy that, in the event he flips town, I have to re-evaluate basically the entire thread. There's still no way that argument was t/t and it's unlikely it was s/s because reasons and unless the re-eval turns up something fruitful I'm absolutely going after vaimes next day. That's not going to happen though.
Most likely explanation is that my killjoy/dbs/vezok poe is close enough to the truth that vezok is trying to start a wagon on me lol.
I don't want to sound like I'm tunneling, but that line almost always comes from scum. Dismiss a case as bad so that you don't have to answer to it.
I wanted to kill rumanashi first, but I changed my mind.
vote Mikey
First of he said it was weak, not bad.
And it is weak. Mikeys reads are decent and have a fair amount of point to them. But you say he is "shading" them, which isn't what he is doing.
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@sentz I don't like lynching lurkers d1. Scum usually go after them early game so town can't get good poe. So why would we lynch them? they would get themselves nightkilled by not posting d1. Most low posting lynches would get us very little interactions, thus making d2 a lot harder to solve.
If there is a counterpoint, please let me know. But that is my thought on lynching lurkers d1.
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@Rod If you have a gut feeling on this one feel free to chase it down. It's weird but it lookd honest. I see 4 possible scenarios (really 3 but 4 for completeness)
First town and intentionally lying. This scenario makes no sense and I'm throwing it out (it was the completeness one)
Town and fogot: thinks he fpund a slip excitedly postd and then retracts it just askimg for a read.
Scum and forgot trying to hunt masons.
Scum and lying trying to hunt masons and garner a town read fr correcting himself reading further into the ISO to try and make it look natural.
The lying scenarios make less sense to me than the forgot ones. And with the forgot pnes the act of forgetting is NAI.
I get that part of your argument is he'd have paid more attention to his debate earlier as town but scum tend to be sticklers for trying to avoid contradictions in my experience. Plus I like where his question was going.
On voting lurkers D1: clearing them makes D2 harder but D4 onward cleaner because they're unlikely to be NKd based on them being such a blank slate and a possible push. Scum hate using a NK on a blank slot because blank slots are so easy to mislynch or receive a modkill. It's good for town for not having to sort blank slots closer to mylo. It's a hard call. I'd always prefer to lynch a scum read but how strong it has to be to choose it over a lurker varies wildly from game to game for me.
Vezok's suspicion of me is weak enough that I'm not even sure I should answer it. I think it's important to note that I know mechanical discussion is wifom and I said as much in the post ("Ultimately I'm wasting a lot of words talking about mechanics") and I'd really rather not get town read for something I could easily have done as a wolf.
I think I said this in OTG, but I don't "try to get town read," even though good townies should be trying to act towny. All my effort goes into solving the game and town reading others and not really worrying about how I present myself. Yes, I'm playing differently this game. I'm trying out a different playstyle and being a bit more cautious (for reasons unrelated to mafia on this forum). That being said, I'm still suss enough of killjoy that, in the event he flips town, I have to re-evaluate basically the entire thread. There's still no way that argument was t/t and it's unlikely it was s/s because reasons and unless the re-eval turns up something fruitful I'm absolutely going after vaimes next day. That's not going to happen though.
Most likely explanation is that my killjoy/dbs/vezok poe is close enough to the truth that vezok is trying to start a wagon on me lol.
I don't want to sound like I'm tunneling, but that line almost always comes from scum. Dismiss a case as bad so that you don't have to answer to it.
but I did answer it. I think I responded to your points fairly well, too. I wasn't sure if it was worth answering because [you're tunneling].
@Grapefruit
I don't see how my catch on Rodemy's post was bad, unexplained maybe.
here's the breakdown (for those who don't know how to read):
1. speculating about the setup isn't the kind of attention masons or scum would like to have. we only have 3 types of roles in the game: masons/scum/vanilla. if you aren't mason or scum, you're vanilla (and locktown).
2. I was curious about how to play the setup, since masons/scum are similar. Rodemy's post was enlightening, in a way: I should try to find the VTs~
overall, it was townish, moreso since it was an early post. good catch not really in terms of interpretation, but the mindset. Vaimes calling it 'obvious', or shallow, just shows he's not paying attention - likely scum.
on the side:
- would masons in this setup be 100% town? been wondering about that.
- if this setup consists of masons/maf/vanilla, it would be better to vanilla-hunt and PoE from there. mason cover is a bad idea.
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@Grapefruit
I don't see how my catch on Rodemy's post was bad, unexplained maybe.
here's the breakdown (for those who don't know how to read):
1. speculating about the setup isn't the kind of attention masons or scum would like to have. we only have 3 types of roles in the game: masons/scum/vanilla. if you aren't mason or scum, you're vanilla (and locktown).
2. I was curious about how to play the setup, since masons/scum are similar. Rodemy's post was enlightening, in a way: I should try to find the VTs~
overall, it was townish, moreso since it was an early post. good catch not really in terms of interpretation, but the mindset. Vaimes calling it 'obvious', or shallow, just shows he's not paying attention - likely scum.
on the side:
- would masons in this setup be 100% town? been wondering about that.
- if this setup consists of masons/maf/vanilla, it would be better to vanilla-hunt and PoE from there. mason cover is a bad idea.
let's jump down the rabbit hole and talk about mason cover
A) Mafia has to find (at least one of) the masons to not auto-lose this setup.
B) Mason cover automatically makes it harder for the mafia to find masons.
C) We can softclear players based on nightkills if they provided mason cover.
D) Every kill from mafia is an attempt at finding the masons, because A.
E) Mafia won't kill someone who is masoning with a scum.
It turns the game into "who can play more mechanically well" rather than "can we read better than they can dissemble". (It's just really cool.)
@those saying masons are always town:
the guide says otherwise. and I've actually seen a maf/town mason team - though tbf that setup had few bastard elements. would it be considered bastard on this site, or even possible? afaik the only locktowns possible here are VTs.
@Emcee
mechanical confirms are near impossible for this game though. only the masons will know each other. the VTs will be left in the dark, moreso with these 'mason covers'.
also, that last sentence.. Vote: Emcee_Mikey
why do you think we need to turn the game into anything? the setup already did the work for us. and hmm.. saying it's 'cool' isn't a reason.
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This is a very good post. Saving something to make a case better later isn't villagery. Plus villagers should always be open to people revealing themselves as town with more posts. It's one of the hardest things to do in mafia, but admitting you're wrong and reevaluating a read with new information is incredibly important. You don't want to give scum a map on how to earn a town read, but you want to give people a chance to prove themselves.
I think this is a bad/dangerous read. I don't think it's a read from scum since I have other reasons to look at mikey as town but I think it's a really dangerous sort of read to make. Scum fake claiming mason's with partners is a great way to distance from each other. Look at how much I've been able to not really give a read on KJ this game and still tell people not to push him because he's my mason buddy. And even if he were to flip scum (which he won't) I have that kind of argument to fall back upon.
Rodemy what does scum Vaimes gain from lying about forgetting that Sentenza hasn't played before? What sort of goal does it accomplish? I agree from an outside PoV it seems like Vaimes would remember that but I can't see any angle he gains by pretending he doesn't. Especially given the angle of questioning he (claimed he) was going to pursue. It dosen't lead anywhere.
I don't understand the Dan town reads. I don't think he's scum or anything I just don't get the dan town reads. I've tried to play Vaimes game but don't see anything jumping out at me in:
Like there just isn't anything there. And yet for all the pushes on Vaimes no one jumped on this as a piece of evidence for him being scum? I'm confused.
Bronze sucks... Either need someone to jump me or to outpost sentenza... Both options are unappealing.
first things first, I read people based on what they have, so if you have 2 towny posts and nothing else you're getting town read. If you have 50 towny posts and 50 scummy posts, you're still null.
the tubba read is kind of a snap judgement considering they had like... 2 posts but their entrance was really smooth. It's a kind of matter-of-fact "this is where I'm at right now", which shows they've been putting effort into solving the game despite not contributing (scum typically would do the reverse, contribute without putting effort into solving the game). I see the exact same thing from dan's post, which is what I'm town reading there as well.
DBS is an interesting case and it's hinging entirely on partnerships, specifically killjoy. I pointed it out in my BigPost but Killjoy's attack on vaimes feels like it's (perhaps subconsciously) in response to vaimes>DBS. Ignoring partnerships entirely I'd say scum was more like killjoy/vezok/dota, or something. Iso/dan/tubba are possibilities there as well. I don't really see the "PAT ON THE BACK IS SCUMMY LUL" argument, and DBS was on the inactive side in Off the Grid as well. A lot of my solving is banking on killjoy being scum, but it all comes back to the 1v1 between him and vaimes and like I said vaimes seems to be too over-the-top and baity to actually be scum.
On your Tubba read how much of it is the specific content of his post versus him actually making a content packed catchup post?
The DBS read is really cool though. I'll reread that section at some point. I definitely thought you were making the "Pat on the back must be scummy" argument.
I particularly don't like town reading Tubba for making a content filled post. I know there was a significant portion of that read that was about the content but putting someone in as a reasonably strong town read just because they made a post that gives opinions doesn't work. In fact I've been burnt the other way on that before.
Also I think the personalities of the 1v1'ers makes a huge difference on how the showdown goes. At least as much as the alignments. I'm the sort who once I get into one will ride it through as either alignment and get heated. But there are some people who will basically never get heated. It's just not in their personality range.
@GF: Can I help you? You have had a window to ask me questions/prompt me to flesh out my reads on the game, and chose not to do so. FWIW, really not reading KJ's progression into the joke realization as a "genius bit of damage control." Also, do you disagree with my assessment that Tubba's "content" post really didn't have all that much content to it?
Mikey: In a hypothetical land where KJ flipped town, right now, with no further interactions, how would that adjust your evaluation of the gamestate?
Will you further expand on why you think both KJ & Vaimes are more likely to be scum than town, if it doesn't have to do with their dialogue? In particular, I don't really think Vaimes is scummy from the interactions you laid out there. I also don't think that S/S is a likely alignment pairing there, and by extension I don't think this is a good time for two scumbuddies to really have an extended dialogue based off of one minor point. I think T/T is the most likely outcome of that interaction.
Lastly, has your read on these two progressed at all? I know it seems like I'm kind of laying into you on this, but there's good reason:
@Vezok: Let's assume KJ isn't a mason (@all let's assume no one is a mason, because all these claims are nonsense until there's some definitive action taken by multiple masons in a small window of time). What do you think about Emcee's case against him?
Also, ruuuuuuuuude. We were JUST buddies! Not posting as scum is a thing that I did back in the day, however, so good call.
I have to admit I was definitely more interested in the reaction to your post than the post itself. The number of people who just dropped in and gave you town reads stood out more than your post itself. Especially Vaimes game of what was townie in the first paragraph. I'm not really wanting to comment on Tubba's post right now. I'm currently fascinated by Mikey's reaction to it. I think I largely agree with your assessment but it wasn't my first instinct.
And neither am I which is why in addition to knowing he's town b/c masons, I read that as stubbornly belatedly realizing that he missed the joke. Which I took as your read as well given you locked him in as your top town read. I don't want to fight you on that! I like the read!
Let me save you/whoever accepts your request some time.
NOPE.
---
Sentenza is like an alien. Very intelligent species that has come to us from outside of our planet, having experienced a variety of other worlds and bringing that knowledge into our universe. Now that she has descended, she realizes that her base assumptions are incorrect, which gives off a "holier than thou" kind of vibe. Direct, analyzing using optimal play to base her assumptions off of.You appear to have defined derp-clear here. I am anticipating KJ's response.It does? Why?
---
@GF: If KJ's thought process on Ruma (which, we agree, was just... wrong) isn't organic from either alignment, what does that mean for his alignment?
V/LA June 2-3, 5-10 (Bonnaroo, this will be very limited posting), 13-17 (GP: Vegas)
I'm having a bit of a hard time engaging in this game, both because of RL and the flow of the game itself, but I'd try to do more.
Flimsy case at best. I've played with town killjoy and he seemed to play exactly like here. I wouldn't be surprised if killjoy is actually scum as he is still in my POE, but nothing made me think he is scum.
Also, I think dan is really townie. His carefree attitude is indicative of not being afraid to post and his posts don't seem edited. Scum ganderin is much more afraid to post and his posts don't read like stream of consciousness.
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I also think thread flow indicates KJ is town with Vaimes for the way the debate around them has swirled. I can explain if you want, but it's unrelated to your question and I'm bad at explaining my thread flow reads.
Also enjoy bonnaroo! I've always wanted to go.
Rod's ISO as a whole looks like him working through his thoughts. Something pings him and he runs along with it to see where it goes. He never makes a big attack on anyone, just states how he thinks/feels. He's not pushing a narrative on anyone, and he seems willing to talk about his reads.
This is my first game with masons, I googled it and thought it seemed pretty straightforward. Rules wise it is, but as the game progressed it occurred to me that play wise it was anything but. It's like it adds six more wines to the menu. Day one is the hardest part of the game for me, because there's no mechanical truth. Everything is speculation and feelings. In a normal game, you could watch for "buddying actions" to winkle out somebody's alignment. With masons, there's another layer going on that means the opposite of what it usually does.
I'd listen to your thread flow theory. My initial read on Vaimes/KJ was t/t, but I felt Vaimes was too defensive over the course of the interaction.
Hm. MaybE I am doing that. I feel. like. Overly certain that you're not town. Enough so that I'm willing to doubt my bias here.
Tell you what. I'm going to leave you alone for the time being, and focus on others. I'll work on rereading you and seeing if I can figure out your alignment in a more unbiased way.
No I've had Vaimes as scum for the whole game so far. But yeah I'm suspicious of Vezok.
Why are you putting to much stock in the reputation of someone you've never played with?
Hey Mikey. You're tunneling me just like I'm tunneling on Vaimes. Take a step back and try to evaluate from an unbiased perspective.
Talk to me about Vezo and DoTA. Why are they town? And why did you not really touch on this (except for Rod) in your 322?
I feel like you may be tunneling too.
So you have no experience in Mafia like games at all? Werewolf? The Resistance? Secret Hitler? Even playing those games could grant skills that could carry over into this game.
I echo Vaimes's 390 in that you're posting like someone who's played before.
I suppose I used the wrong word there. Snap-clear probably is a better word there. Or perhaps it means "to clear someone for being obvious town". It's kinda a little bit of both. I was clearing him on newbtells.
Edit: You put it really well later when you say he's 'pure'. That's a big part of the snap-clear. Obvious purity due to being new. He doesn't appear to know what he needs to lie about, and he doesn't appear to be trying to.
You are correct, that is a towntell. Its stuff like this, when I start thinking towntells are scumtells that I start needing to take a step back.
This post actually sparks several questions/thoughts for me.
Firstly, while I do agree her questions seem to have a town bent to them, she is not lock town. I am EXTREMELY paranoid of new players that have this level of skill. She could just be town, or she could be acting like it. Time will tell for sure.
You said earlier that you knew Ruma by reputation. In this, you cite specific examples of his play in a game. If you remember playing in that game with him and him doing the things you are saying... why did you say you knew him by reputation? Why did you not cite this game? Also I looked it up, it was OTG4 not 3.
Hm. If Ruma is scum, who are his buddies?
Which points that Grape made did you also want to make?
You're going to find this incredibly frustrating in the future should we play together again. Cuz unfortunately that's just how I think sometimes. I'd say it's probably because I was tunneling on him and was searching for reasons for him to be scum, but idk.
Is your read on Vezok solely meta based?
I wanna say I do see it?
...are you SURE you're new? This is like... fairly advanced mafia theory. It's not something I'd equate with someone who's read some games.
Says you.
This is a question I had when I wasn't at a computer and forgot to include it when I sat down. Bah.
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1. Dan - town for reasons outlined before.
2. Ruma - scum for previously stated reasons.
3. Dawn - neutral. I'm bad at reading dawn and there's no way I can formulate a read this early.
4. Tubba - scummy. His posts read like someone with a hidden agenda, but it's subtle. I haven't played with him before so I can't make a concrete read right now
5. Vezok - I'm town.
6. Huntziso - no posts.
7. Rodemy - town, although very paranoid.
8. Dota - his first few posts were townie, but he dropped of the map
9. Sentenza - Very very town. They way she approaches this game is great and I don't think scum in their first game would play like this.
10. Vaimes - Pretty townie. I'm wary he might be fooling us, so my read isn't as concrete, but I'm liking him so far.
11. Grape - Town. He is trying to solve the game. Scum grape sits back a lot more and posts less.
12. Emcee - Scum. He seems different from off the grid, less confruntational and less sure of himself. I also his defense of rumanashi.
13. Killjoy - Slight town. I'm not that good at reading killjoy, but he seems townie enough.
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34 and knew his reputation before that. So it's one I'm comfortable making despite never having played with Ruma. I figured having read one game still fell under knowing by reputation. Anyway I've bever played with seppel but I know enough about seppel by reputation that I would have a meta read if I found myself in a game with seppel. I trust things I hear when they are from mulyiple sources and specific.Why are you nervous about clearing Sentenza for playing confidently and "well" (as in knowing mafia theory) in a first game but happy to clear Mikey who isn't new for being confused about mason stuff? You're right I shouldn't lock clear her but she's a heavy town read.
Once Dan and Vezok answer your questions about my points on Ruma did my stuff change your opinion at all?
Fwiw I read about 10 games before I started playing and garnered raised eyebrows and disbelief that it was my first game. Reading well played games gives you a real leg up when you start playing. I'd also played in person mafia before but not with gaming types. Anyway my point is either it's a gimmick account who won't own up to being new till post game or an actual new player. I'm not really sure what the pointed questions about the genuiness of the newness will accomplish.
@Vezok can you talk more about the Emcee Mikey read. I'm seeing town mikey dwspite seeing a noticably different mikey.
I just want to say that the ISO function is making me really mad. Who designed this crap?
This post seems to come from a mindset of "I want to push this wagon, but others don't so I'm going to shade".
Even more unsubstantial shade. Mikey in of the grid made good points and played a totally different game. He seemed more laid back.
I had this exact same thought and didn't talk about it in thread, because that would make mafia more likely to shoot one of them just for WIFOM.
This seems like mikey is aiming for townie points for strategy, when he should know that posting this would just create more WIFOM.
And his switch to killjoy seems incredibly oportunistic. He saw that the Vaimes wagon wasn't moving and switched gears completely to killjoy.
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In a world of Ruma scum and killjoy and Vaimes town, the scum will push for KJ and Vaimes because if one is lynched the town will probably chain lynch the other one. This works even if Ruma isn't scum. Optimal scum strategy would involve split pushing the wagons to make it look like a t/s scenario.
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I'll look at your mikey case closer in the morning but it you went from being less sure of himself and less confrontational as reasons to scum read him to throwing shade and not being as laid back as your main points. With a side of him voicing wine about mechanics being a bad thing thrown in for good measure. Which doesn't feel like a consistent read. Again I'm tired and not 100% sure I'm reading all of it right but FOS: Vezok
I'll start at the beginning
#39 He askes dota if he is always this awkward. I will agree with this line of thinking. I too thought DoTa was being extremely defensive.
his next too posts are raising suspicion on another player as well: Vaimes. Both playing off of my paranoia, or so it seems.
#67 "There's a reason to Ruman" Um.. um? Okay so if you guys ARE masons, which is what this could be implying, then why townvibe him so early off of.. 2 posts (8 words total all of which are NAI)
(fun fact, while trying to iso ruma, i tried copy and pasting 2 different people who spelled out the full name. Both were wrong)
#72 is a poor reply to grape calling his Ruma read "Sketchy." KJ. Babe. You know why.
I know you know why. Like. You can't townread someone for the two posts that ruma posted. You just can't. And then you can't claim "reasons"
#81 is gross.
"What do you know of ruman that means he could be doing this as scum?"
FIRST OFF: No.
SECOND: Who said anything about ruman being scum? Here, lemme be not lazy and quote the post here:
THAT is a leading question. Grape mentions Ruman can pst those 2 posts as EITHER alignment, but Killjoy just asks why ruman could be doing it as scum, pushing that grape thinks Ruman is scum. Just because Grape disagrees with the town read, doesn't mean he thinks Ruman is scum, but Killjoy implies falsely that he does.
I like His 113. Possible bussing for such a callout though.
The exchange between the two is hard to follow. But i am starting to think KJ IS a good start.
vote killjoy
Did you read the question he took back?
We all know she is new. It was established in the first 2 pages. So this question is out of place.
@vaimes why is this a question? What info did you hope to gather from it and why specifically grape?
The lead in is weird. Asking if she has talked to grape before the game or played with him before. and then asking for a read on him. What does the former have to do with the latter? Were you hoping for a meta read? It sounds like you were leading her into giving a meta read for some reason.
Like.. almost coaching, but it backfired.
I think I said this in OTG, but I don't "try to get town read," even though good townies should be trying to act towny. All my effort goes into solving the game and town reading others and not really worrying about how I present myself. Yes, I'm playing differently this game. I'm trying out a different playstyle and being a bit more cautious (for reasons unrelated to mafia on this forum). That being said, I'm still suss enough of killjoy that, in the event he flips town, I have to re-evaluate basically the entire thread. There's still no way that argument was t/t and it's unlikely it was s/s because reasons and unless the re-eval turns up something fruitful I'm absolutely going after vaimes next day. That's not going to happen though.
Most likely explanation is that my killjoy/dbs/vezok poe is close enough to the truth that vezok is trying to start a wagon on me lol.
How can you call me out for my dota read when YOU haven't even read dotas interaction with Sentz? If you had looked at it YOU would have known sentz is new.
There is a huge disconnect there.
._. Am i being paranoid again?
What does scum!vaimes gain from forgetting I'd (soft) asked senteza her preferred pronouns and trying to catch a slip before walking it back without a challenge over it? Yours came later iirc
I agree it's weird but I don't see a scum benefit to his line of questioning. I see town!vaimes thinking he has a slip, getting excited, and then dropping it as he continues reading. Which is within his range but the act looks townie. And forgetting and remembering without correction while weird speaks to a real and therefor townie process.
Things feel off with vaimes dota kj and Sentz.
I would not be surprised if one of them is scum.
Idk. I get gut feelings. Weird vibes. Nobody follows them, but i tend to find scum that way. I still feel like Vaimes is pretending to read the game.
if THAT was his whole reasoning, he could have been fishing for masons or even implying you two are scum together.. there are plenty of reasons for him to ask that question as scum... but he forgot sentz was new and i think that is a slip.
I don't want to sound like I'm tunneling, but that line almost always comes from scum. Dismiss a case as bad so that you don't have to answer to it.
I wanted to kill rumanashi first, but I changed my mind.
vote Mikey
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First of he said it was weak, not bad.
And it is weak. Mikeys reads are decent and have a fair amount of point to them. But you say he is "shading" them, which isn't what he is doing.
If there is a counterpoint, please let me know. But that is my thought on lynching lurkers d1.
@Rod If you have a gut feeling on this one feel free to chase it down. It's weird but it lookd honest. I see 4 possible scenarios (really 3 but 4 for completeness)
First town and intentionally lying. This scenario makes no sense and I'm throwing it out (it was the completeness one)
Town and fogot: thinks he fpund a slip excitedly postd and then retracts it just askimg for a read.
Scum and forgot trying to hunt masons.
Scum and lying trying to hunt masons and garner a town read fr correcting himself reading further into the ISO to try and make it look natural.
The lying scenarios make less sense to me than the forgot ones. And with the forgot pnes the act of forgetting is NAI.
I get that part of your argument is he'd have paid more attention to his debate earlier as town but scum tend to be sticklers for trying to avoid contradictions in my experience. Plus I like where his question was going.
On voting lurkers D1: clearing them makes D2 harder but D4 onward cleaner because they're unlikely to be NKd based on them being such a blank slate and a possible push. Scum hate using a NK on a blank slot because blank slots are so easy to mislynch or receive a modkill. It's good for town for not having to sort blank slots closer to mylo. It's a hard call. I'd always prefer to lynch a scum read but how strong it has to be to choose it over a lurker varies wildly from game to game for me.
The irony killed me.
I don't see how my catch on Rodemy's post was bad, unexplained maybe.
here's the breakdown (for those who don't know how to read):
1. speculating about the setup isn't the kind of attention masons or scum would like to have. we only have 3 types of roles in the game: masons/scum/vanilla. if you aren't mason or scum, you're vanilla (and locktown).
2. I was curious about how to play the setup, since masons/scum are similar. Rodemy's post was enlightening, in a way: I should try to find the VTs~
overall, it was townish, moreso since it was an early post. good catch not really in terms of interpretation, but the mindset. Vaimes calling it 'obvious', or shallow, just shows he's not paying attention - likely scum.
on the side:
- would masons in this setup be 100% town? been wondering about that.
- if this setup consists of masons/maf/vanilla, it would be better to vanilla-hunt and PoE from there. mason cover is a bad idea.
Be grateful, always."
let's jump down the rabbit hole and talk about mason cover
A) Mafia has to find (at least one of) the masons to not auto-lose this setup.
B) Mason cover automatically makes it harder for the mafia to find masons.
C) We can softclear players based on nightkills if they provided mason cover.
D) Every kill from mafia is an attempt at finding the masons, because A.
E) Mafia won't kill someone who is masoning with a scum.
It turns the game into "who can play more mechanically well" rather than "can we read better than they can dissemble". (It's just really cool.)
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Dont be cheeky.
@dawnmasons are always town. Neighbors are any. Seeing as youve been around a while, how did you not know that???
@sentz why does this make dawn scum?
the guide says otherwise. and I've actually seen a maf/town mason team - though tbf that setup had few bastard elements. would it be considered bastard on this site, or even possible? afaik the only locktowns possible here are VTs.
@Emcee
mechanical confirms are near impossible for this game though. only the masons will know each other. the VTs will be left in the dark, moreso with these 'mason covers'.
also, that last sentence..
Vote: Emcee_Mikey
why do you think we need to turn the game into anything? the setup already did the work for us. and hmm.. saying it's 'cool' isn't a reason.
Be grateful, always."