in off the grid 4 rumanshi said somewhere that when he's town "he trolls" or something to that extent. He wasn't trolling in the beginning (fmpov) but as the game went on he got progressively more sarcastic.
that's true, though I've also seen him as careful town. it's more like he's a carefree player.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
It's probably your fault. You're the one who said "I'll be keeping not of this" or whatever, which 99% of the time conveys suspicion. I've never seen anyone actively point out they're making a note of something they /weren't/ suspicious of.
I don't see your point on Rodemy being scummy for pointing out the "obvious", which wasn't obvious at all. if it is obvious, why are you scumreading that while I'm townreading that? I thought it was "obvious".
Town lie all the time, for better or worse. Usually it's bad, but sometimes it's not. Town should absolutely lie when Masons are involved.
You're better off completely ignoring the claims, and scumreading me for having a vote on Killjoy because he claimed Mason on D1 without being run up is ridiculous.
I disagree. this will lead to late-game confusion. I've seen a game where town lied their way to victory, with me as scum, but I've also seen town literally throw the game by lying. I would say it's up to choice, not "good" at all. for you to suggest that means you're likely scum looking for confusion in a solid setup.
Also all these Vaimes attack seem to come from a mindset where you want him to be scum and are trying to justify that. Take a look at the bigger picture and you'll see that Vaimes doesn't seem to have any hidden agenda, he's in this to lynch scum.", @
I'm sorry for assuming that this was due to activity, when... You said nothing! Woo! TOWN POINTS FOR YOU!
@Grapefruit Post 249 I'd offer something useful if there was anything I had in mind right at the time. Unfortunely, you guys are so focused on 'scum slips' you forget the most important thing -_- Scum are the ones with the knowledge, not the town. So it is about activity. Holdup, but Vaimes said it WASN'T on his side. but it is on yours? META READS FTW.
@Vezok: Post 250 This literally means nothing. It's like the definition of useless posting.
@Sentenza 252 Funnily enough, I actually like this post. Huh.
@Vaimes: 256 Cause I enjoy ******* with META reads. Even if I do rely on them. *shrugs*
@vaimes 268 Your presupposition is that the play is bad, therefore making you disappointed I make it even being an experienced player. You see how your logic is flawed, right?
@Vaimes 269 - Point 1, Vezok voted me for not being as active in another game. Other people didn't say anything with their votes. *shrugs* Coolio.
- Point 2, It doesn't matter right now. There's obviously town paranoia cause everyone's suspecting everyone. You know who the real suspicious people are? The ones who are extremely confident in their reads. I wonder why that would be?
- Point 3, You already have the information that I am an experienced mafia player, and your first assumption is that I'm scum that's made a mistake. Woo.
@Vaimes 270 - It doesn't matter how you read it. It's not how it was intended. *shrugs*
@Grapefruit: 273 - Vaimes close reading is exactly what scum would do, but sure. Keep thinking that.
@dawningbluesky: 279 Hehehe. Lady Luck, grant me your powers one more time.
@dawningbluesky 280 - In regards to claiming, there are multitudes of situations here. Fake claiming is probably the best way to protect the real masons from night kills, but it will lead to confusion late game. I believe it is situation based and there could be a circumstance when it's logical. That said, i wouldn't recommend it.
Yay for weekends!
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I am also called Riku. I tend to prefer being called riku.
Maybe I'm a little bit lost, because we have a claim that grapefruit and killjoy are both masons with an undisclosed third partner that has gone uncountered and uh
people are still suspicious of them?
Like c'mon if you think they're not the real masons then we need the actual mason team to claim
played with masons before in a closed setup, so the reveal was a surprise. in fact, when masons outed themselves, we considered them anti-using their role - masons are meant to work together in secret, not live off a claim. adding to confusion with 'cover operations' or lies also does not help like you think it does. I've seen lying happen in an open setup, complete with all the switcheroos, and it was hilarious how town shot its own foot. //sarcasm// .-.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
@dawningbluesky: 279 Hehehe. Lady Luck, grant me your powers one more time.
indeed. would be cool to see it happen again.
@dawningbluesky 280 - In regards to claiming, there are multitudes of situations here. Fake claiming is probably the best way to protect the real masons from night kills, but it will lead to confusion late game. I believe it is situation based and there could be a circumstance when it's logical. That said, i wouldn't recommend it.
yeah I'm aware of the idea that fakeclaiming would safeguard the real masons. town fakeclaiming is generally for that purpose. it worked well in the one game we know, but it also worked against town (who were in the lead by 2 days from the start). I think you weren't in that game? here lol
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
in off the grid 4 rumanshi said somewhere that when he's town "he trolls" or something to that extent. He wasn't trolling in the beginning (fmpov) but as the game went on he got progressively more sarcastic.
that's true, though I've also seen him as careful town. it's more like he's a carefree player.
yes, carefree is another good way of putting it. Either way, rumanshi's tone is solidly in line with what I saw last game (noting that 1 game does not necessarily establish a meta)
As far as the mason stuff goes:
If town fakeclaim mason, we can tentatively clear players based on the nightkill. Assuming mafia is actively trying to hit the masons (and they should, that's 3 confirmed town players who know each other before lylo), when a player flips we can assume that mafia thought they were masons and thus their fake "mason buddies" can be assumed to be town. For example, if I die in the night, Rumanshi is more likely to be town. If grapefruit dies in the night, Killjoy is more likely to be town.
Ultimately I'm wasting a lot of words discussing mechanics, but I find town cover to be a super cool concept and I've seen it work well in all games I've played with it, so I support it here.
Not saying you're wrong for disliking it, just saying maybe you haven't considered all the benefits yet.
in off the grid 4 rumanshi said somewhere that when he's town "he trolls" or something to that extent. He wasn't trolling in the beginning (fmpov) but as the game went on he got progressively more sarcastic.
that's true, though I've also seen him as careful town. it's more like he's a carefree player.
yes, carefree is another good way of putting it. Either way, rumanshi's tone is solidly in line with what I saw last game (noting that 1 game does not necessarily establish a meta)
As far as the mason stuff goes:
If town fakeclaim mason, we can tentatively clear players based on the nightkill. Assuming mafia is actively trying to hit the masons (and they should, that's 3 confirmed town players who know each other before lylo), when a player flips we can assume that mafia thought they were masons and thus their fake "mason buddies" can be assumed to be town. For example, if I die in the night, Rumanshi is more likely to be town. If grapefruit dies in the night, Killjoy is more likely to be town.
Ultimately I'm wasting a lot of words discussing mechanics, but I find town cover to be a super cool concept and I've seen it work well in all games I've played with it, so I support it here.
Not saying you're wrong for disliking it, just saying maybe you haven't considered all the benefits yet.
hmmm you're a tone reader? don't remember that.
and also, when did you claim?? inb4 we get rekt. for the record I've only seen 2 games of which 1 was good while 1 was bad, so it's a solid 50/50 for me that it is even a good idea. what is the count for your experience that you would consider it good at all? it leads to confusion, and I disagree with it.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
I don't even know what to say. This game has taken a turn that I don't understand at all.
Like I know all three of you can solve games and I've seen you solve as many or more games than I have (whopping total of 1 game ever correctly solved while still alive...) but I don't understand why you're saying any of what you're saying.
Ruma yes my vote post was naked, but if you'd read the game before that you'd know I'd been scum reading you for how dismissive you were being. I outline it with a joke in 143 and a bit more but still pretty shallow depth in 162. And you continuing to dismiss and shade everything you don't agree with in 281 makes you seem scummy. I know you have a "unique" town meta, but I don't know your play well enough to judge you otherwise so when I seem what appears to be an uncalled for handwave I'm going to scum read it. And because I know a bit of your meta I'm definitely not going to do a meta dive because I'm pretty sure it would be decidedly unhelpful. So you get to get read like you're a normal generic average mafia player.
@DBS You're overthinking it. Badly overthinking it. Also you can stop pretending we both know you're my real mason buddy. That KJ stuff was just a lie.
in off the grid 4 rumanshi said somewhere that when he's town "he trolls" or something to that extent. He wasn't trolling in the beginning (fmpov) but as the game went on he got progressively more sarcastic.
that's true, though I've also seen him as careful town. it's more like he's a carefree player.
yes, carefree is another good way of putting it. Either way, rumanshi's tone is solidly in line with what I saw last game (noting that 1 game does not necessarily establish a meta)
As far as the mason stuff goes:
If town fakeclaim mason, we can tentatively clear players based on the nightkill. Assuming mafia is actively trying to hit the masons (and they should, that's 3 confirmed town players who know each other before lylo), when a player flips we can assume that mafia thought they were masons and thus their fake "mason buddies" can be assumed to be town. For example, if I die in the night, Rumanshi is more likely to be town. If grapefruit dies in the night, Killjoy is more likely to be town.
Ultimately I'm wasting a lot of words discussing mechanics, but I find town cover to be a super cool concept and I've seen it work well in all games I've played with it, so I support it here.
Not saying you're wrong for disliking it, just saying maybe you haven't considered all the benefits yet.
Well yes and no. In scum ruma, town mikey, ruma shoots you and he gets a massive boost of town points. If you have no idea who the masons might be this is just WIFOM. The whole Mason claims are all WIFOM until the masons are up for a lynch or killed during the night.
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Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy. Check out the Shop Thread
Hey Vaimes, how do you feel about Grape and Vezoks votes on Ruma?
Also how do you feel about Vezoks early focus on lurkers?
I would argue that Rumas attitude is generally Townie still. I also think, if he is scum, then pressuring him now is premature. Now you've forced him to do stuff instead of waiting longer for him to do nothing and making your case stronger.
Obviously biased, since I thought they were towny before, and them joining me to vote someone I think is scum doesn't look out of place.
Eh? Kinda scummy, but it's a different approach from his scumplay, so I don't really know what to tell you there. Wait and see?
I don't think his response was towny at all, and your thoughts on Ruma don't mesh. What is your actual read on him?
PFFF. Me not wanting to draw attention? Mate, I live off theatrics. Its what keeps me going
These posts are the ones that I gave a tentative townread for (technically only the first two, but the third applies too.) It's more that scum are less liekly to do things like this ("plague on all your houses" is kinda psudo aggressive post that might call unwanted attention to himself, "pressure intensifies" does nothing, sure, but it also LOOKS like he's doing nothing. The third thing is kind of a weird response for scum to give. It's just... like why would scum say this?
Like, none of these really accomplish the scum wincon. What does it do for him? Scum posts tend to have some kind of purpose that further their wincons (working toward getting a townie lynched, making posts that blend in with town) which these don't do.
The rest of his posts (though specifically 248 and 281) seem to be a growing frustration that people are getting up his ass for not being here when he just has little time. That might be NAI? I know I've done it before, and it tends to happen to me more as town.
Grapefruit21, Vaimes: Talk me through the bolded, with regard to what Killjoy must have been thinking when he wrote it, as either alignment.
It seems like a wildly bizarre thought to have.
The implication that making Ruma Do Things is bad is pretty ??? from a town perspective.
Oh. You misunderstood that I think.
That was actually two seperate thoughts. "I would argue that Ruma's attitude is generally townie" being the first one, and the rest being the second. My point there was that pressuring him now (meaning literally interupting him from actively lurking to accuse him of actively lurking at this point in the game) is premature. If he is indeed purposefully not doing things to blend in, he hasn't been doing it long enough to accurately prove it at this point. When you are trying to make a case for active lurking, forcing them to do things is the exact opposite of what you wanna do.
That was what I was trying to say.
So far nothing reads as obvious scum. It's all just town paranoia. There's no substance to any of the arguments.
That being said, my current premonition of doubt has been placed upon Sentenza.
Vote: Sentenza
The allegation is, your vibes are off, now react and give me amusement, or face the wrath of the stars.
Good work Ruma, gotta kill scum! If that bolded section isnt scum throwing out a vote for the sake of looking like they're doing something then I'm Abraham Lincoln.
(I'm reading "Nothing reads as obvious scum" as "There's nothing bad enough that I can justify pushing to lynch without getting heat for it," fyi @ everyone)
There is a lot of bias in this statement. You see that, don't you?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@KJ I just think your entire Ruma read is invalid because it's based on the idea that he wouldn't want to draw attention as scum. I'm pretty sure he's going to be Ruma no matter which alignment he roles. It would be like saying Rodemy isn't scum because scum Rodemy would be more worried about dotting his i's and crossing his t's. It's just not a safe read to make.
As for your continuing read that his *pressure intensifies* post does nothing to accomplish his scum win con that's like a super reachy reach. People make fluff posts. Espcecially people who come from MAL. They have a very relaxed social type game and most people there fluff post as either alignment. It also does nothing to advance his town win condition.
I'll agree his frustration reads naturally and the specific frustration at the naked votes (that were justified before they were made) does seem townie. But for me it's not enough to outweigh his general dismissive posts. Which are furthering a scum win condition.
Also Vezok's question about why Mikey is that high needs an answer. And I'd like one for Rodemy as well.
yeah I don't like this Killjoy post. The entire thing is bordering on wifom
gotta think about how I feel about Killjoy in general now, the mason claim may have confused me when I didn't understand it
I think Killjoy ranking me as high town might be a buddying attempt, which is worrying. Iirc I was pretty vocal about Killjoy being town in the Killjoy/Vaimes thing
hngggh
I don't see your point on Rodemy being scummy for pointing out the "obvious", which wasn't obvious at all. if it is obvious, why are you scumreading that while I'm townreading that? I thought it was "obvious".
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I disagree. this will lead to late-game confusion. I've seen a game where town lied their way to victory, with me as scum, but I've also seen town literally throw the game by lying. I would say it's up to choice, not "good" at all. for you to suggest that means you're likely scum looking for confusion in a solid setup.
Okay, I'm starting to get sick of always being given the side-eye from people who don't actually read the game.
Rod thought DoTA was being defensive, even though Rod said he wasn't suspicious of him. But Rod used a phrase that conveys suspicion 99.9% of the time, period. I was pointing that out. And if you had actually read that conversation, you would see that Rod agrees. Also, I never called Rod scummy for that point.
Feel free to disagree, I can't stop you. But the whole point of vanilla towns is to try and draw attention away from the actual PRs. Which means town are going to lie, or at least hint at being a Mason. This is true in literally all non-mountainous mafia games across the board. Things can always be cleared up later. The whole "lying = scum(my)" thing is something you should use your brain and context clues to determine if it holds or not.
I don't even know what to say. This game has taken a turn that I don't understand at all.
Like I know all three of you can solve games and I've seen you solve as many or more games than I have (whopping total of 1 game ever correctly solved while still alive...) but I don't understand why you're saying any of what you're saying.
Even if you're scum, I vibe with this sentiment so much. It's like people are looking at isolated posts and going on their merry way as if it means they understood the conversation where those posts took place.
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Gonna respond to Killjoy and Ruma in separate posts because I'm already exhausted.
I did not naked vote you. I accused you of actively lurking. It says so right there in the post where I voted you.
Are you sure you're town?
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Killjoy, how about this: no one voted Ruma for lurking, they voted him because the posts he made when he -was- posting were bad. Him reacting to the case as if it's all about his lack of presence is actually something I find to be a very specific scumtell. If someone so much as mentions thread activity, even in passing, scum will sometimes react as if the case against them is 100% about their activity, even if it totally wasn't.
I've caught scum!Iso this way (and proceeded to let him get away with it :V) as well as one or two other scum players offsite with this tell. Wanna see if it holds?
Also Killjoy, what is or isn't premature is probably too subjective to be useful. Making potential scum do things forces them to distance from buddies, buddy town, give opinions, and inadvertently hint at who is what alignment. I don't see the value in letting someone lurk just so I can lynch them for lurking later.
I think Killjoy ranking me as high town might be a buddying attempt, which is worrying. Iirc I was pretty vocal about Killjoy being town in the Killjoy/Vaimes thing
hngggh
Ooh, me. Kick him to the curb and pick me.
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If anyone disagrees with Mikey being town, I'd rather you speak up sooner or later. I'm kinda ready to lock the read in tbh.
@KJ I just think your entire Ruma read is invalid because it's based on the idea that he wouldn't want to draw attention as scum. I'm pretty sure he's going to be Ruma no matter which alignment he roles. It would be like saying Rodemy isn't scum because scum Rodemy would be more worried about dotting his i's and crossing his t's. It's just not a safe read to make.
As for your continuing read that his *pressure intensifies* post does nothing to accomplish his scum win con that's like a super reachy reach. People make fluff posts. Espcecially people who come from MAL. They have a very relaxed social type game and most people there fluff post as either alignment. It also does nothing to advance his town win condition.
I'll agree his frustration reads naturally and the specific frustration at the naked votes (that were justified before they were made) does seem townie. But for me it's not enough to outweigh his general dismissive posts. Which are furthering a scum win condition.
Also Vezok's question about why Mikey is that high needs an answer. And I'd like one for Rodemy as well.
Tell me about how Ruma usually is. I'm generally unfamiliar with his meta. I think I've maybe been in one game with him.
Rodemy's talk with Vaimes is why I have a townread on him.
I did not naked vote you. I accused you of actively lurking. It says so right there in the post where I voted you.
Are you sure you're town?
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Killjoy, how about this: no one voted Ruma for lurking, they voted him because the posts he made when he -was- posting were bad. Him reacting to the case as if it's all about his lack of presence is actually something I find to be a very specific scumtell. If someone so much as mentions thread activity, even in passing, scum will sometimes react as if the case against them is 100% about their activity, even if it totally wasn't.
I've caught scum!Iso this way (and proceeded to let him get away with it :V) as well as one or two other scum players offsite with this tell. Wanna see if it holds?
You voted him for active lurking. You literally say so earlier in this post. Why is this the first mention of the other reasons for voting him?
I can, however, see where that theory might be a thing. The issue is I think I've done that as town before. Also I'm not sure it's the case this game with Ruma.
Also Killjoy, what is or isn't premature is probably too subjective to be useful. Making potential scum do things forces them to distance from buddies, buddy town, give opinions, and inadvertently hint at who is what alignment. I don't see the value in letting someone lurk just so I can lynch them for lurking later.
Hm. That's fair, although it's still a little sketchy that you've come up with additional reasons for Ruma to be scum besides active lurking now.
I think Killjoy ranking me as high town might be a buddying attempt, which is worrying. Iirc I was pretty vocal about Killjoy being town in the Killjoy/Vaimes thing
hngggh
Ooh, me. Kick him to the curb and pick me.
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If anyone disagrees with Mikey being town, I'd rather you speak up sooner or later. I'm kinda ready to lock the read in tbh.
This ends your daily round of Vaimes spamposting.
Question for you: Vezok has made it clear that he disagrees with this read.
Does this affect your townread on him? IF so why? Do you think his not agreeing with this shows a lack of townsolving or do you think there's another reason for it?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
You voted him for active lurking. You literally say so earlier in this post. Why is this the first mention of the other reasons for voting him?
Killjoy.
I voted him for active lurking, and then I left my vote on him when he responded to that vote with "thanks for voting me for having a life!" which is not even close to what I (or anyone) said.
Since those reasons now exist, I added them to my scumread of him so that people can see where my current, updated read is coming from. Those reasons obviously don't apply to why I made the original vote, because the post Ruma made afterwards didn't exist yet.
Please stop reading all of my posts through scum-tinted lenses and work with me here.
I feel like I was way too wordy with my last post. To put it simply, I voted him for active lurking, and am going to keep pushing for him to be lynched due to how he responded to that vote until I am convinced he is town or someone else grabs my attention.
@DBS You're overthinking it. Badly overthinking it. Also you can stop pretending we both know you're my real mason buddy. That KJ stuff was just a lie.
ehhh... how is that overthinking it? and nope, I ain't part of that mess.
Also Killjoy, what is or isn't premature is probably too subjective to be useful. Making potential scum do things forces them to distance from buddies, buddy town, give opinions, and inadvertently hint at who is what alignment. I don't see the value in letting someone lurk just so I can lynch them for lurking later.
I'm always up for lynching lurkers. having someone play longer in a game makes them easier to read later, as well.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
I'm currently at the point where I'm reasonably confident that vaimes/killjoy is t/s. The problem I have right now is that vaimes is acting over-the-top-scummy to the point where it's not scummy and certainly engaging other players. I still dislike killjoy's town read of me- he says he's getting "newb town" vibes, which kind of feels like a forced read, since the only newbery I've done so far is mistake mason cover (my bad!).
While it's close, I think after giving reasoning behind killjoy's townread of me he looks a lot scummier than Vaimes does. We shall see if Vaimes is right about being unquestionably towny after D2... unvote Vote: Vaimes
let's hope this is right
also I just realized that this game is literally gonna go on most of the summer unless we hit wolves/insta frequently
dawn, what on earth do you mean by “the current Vaimes”?
I'm not sure you're always this aggressive, and the current you looks like a version of DV. oh I probably should ask... how would you describe your current playstyle?
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
I'm currently at the point where I'm reasonably confident that vaimes/killjoy is t/s. The problem I have right now is that vaimes is acting over-the-top-scummy to the point where it's not scummy and certainly engaging other players. I still dislike killjoy's town read of me- he says he's getting "newb town" vibes, which kind of feels like a forced read, since the only newbery I've done so far is mistake mason cover (my bad!).
hmmm I think you still haven't answered me if you claimed or not.
also, how did you come to the conclusion that Vaimes/Killjoy are t/s? Killjoy had Vaimes on a townlean and Vezok as a suspect iirc.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
I'm currently at the point where I'm reasonably confident that vaimes/killjoy is t/s. The problem I have right now is that vaimes is acting over-the-top-scummy to the point where it's not scummy and certainly engaging other players. I still dislike killjoy's town read of me- he says he's getting "newb town" vibes, which kind of feels like a forced read, since the only newbery I've done so far is mistake mason cover (my bad!).
hmmm I think you still haven't answered me if you claimed or not.
also, how did you come to the conclusion that Vaimes/Killjoy are t/s? Killjoy had Vaimes on a townlean and Vezok as a suspect iirc.
If I'm a mason, Rumanshi is as well.
That conclusion might take a while to cite but I'll get back to you with some kinda progression/quote chain
dawn, what on earth do you mean by “the current Vaimes”?
I'm not sure you're always this aggressive, and the current you looks like a version of DV. oh I probably should ask... how would you describe your current playstyle?
A mess.
Maybe DV and I should roll scum together and see what happens.
Oh, Sentenza, some self-meta: I'm not much of a do-er. I read stuff, I share thoughts, I vote, and that's about it. My playstyle usually puts me under heavy scrutiny from non-familiar players for the first bit of D1, but I'm usually unlynchably towny by D2 at the latest.
@DBS good distancing buddy. I'll trll you in private how you're overthinkinh it.
@Iso welcome!
@Vaimes I'm torn on Mikey. I'll get back to you on him later.
@KJ I don't have a firm grasp of his meta but enough to know Ruma is unafraid to ruffles feathers. In fact to the point where if he didn't behavw loudly it would be notable.
Apologies for the delay.
I thought Vaimes/Killjoy was T/T, but now I'm more inclined to see KJ's point of view. Killjoy is definitely tunnelled, but I can see the reasoning behind it. Vaimes' early posts seem like a fishing trip, and his interactions with KJ are reactionary and defensive. I believe it was Rumanishi who made the point about <shrugs>, I agree with that as well. I can't help but read them in a negative/confrontational context.
So his analysis of the huge 1v1 (which I will get to individually further down) is that it originally seemed t/t to him but was coming around to seeing killjoy's point of view- that is, Vaimes scum. I agree that the argument is t/s because typically t/s arguments are more shallow than t/t arguments. Both town think they're right and the 1v1s tend to get heated. This 1v1 is a lot more in line with t/s situations I've seen. By no means hard and fast, but tubba and I are picking up on the same types of stuff here (reaching a different conclusion from it).
Here's the 1v1, and I apologize because IDK how multi-quote works so these may be out of order. Just read the whole thing at once, close enough.
I think Killjoy could be mafia. Might have a better idea several days from now, after he's talked to non-me people.
To my knowledge Rod has never townread me, plus he seems more free-flowy rather than looking to push anything, so he's a light town.
vezok seems town to me only because last time he was scum he tried to mislynch me, and he came off as super unreasonable and pushy. Didn't work. Small chance he could be wary of pushing on me again.
I was originally scum reading this quote but it could also be town just trying to throw out thoughts. It definitely looks like a scummy post so a theoretical town killjoy will still jump on it- I think vaimes is intentionally playing this way to try and bait certain reactions?
We are generally in agreement. You are safe for now.
How do you plan on reading dawn if she's always scummy?
How does this progression work? There's such a...disconnect.
I think I want to Vote Vaimes
This is notable as the point where killjoy votes for vaimes. Almost looks like a scum play pattern between killjoy and DBS... which I'll get to, I promise. The important part is that Killjoy is responding to vaimes' scum read of DBS under the pretense of doubling up on Grapefruit.
@Vaimes: You worded that thing you quoted in a way that shaded me for not declaring a plan for future questioning while not taking ownership of doing it.
Shade has been called
At this point I would say the 1v1 is developing into a T/S pattern. Killjoy calling out vaimes for shade is a good indicator of that imo. At this point though I'd say vaimes is the scum.
@Vaimes: You worded that thing you quoted in a way that shaded me for not declaring a plan for future questioning while not taking ownership of doing it.
(There's no way for me to word that without it sounding aggressive; it's not.)
I'm... Scum reading you for it.
What kind of answer were you expecting here? I'm curious.
I thought you might ask me questions or see how my posting potentially changes over the next several days or something. Shrug.
Carry on.
@Vaimes This one.
The verbiage of it is passive and shades me for not doing these things while at the same time not outright accusing me for it. It's like you attribute a supposed scummy thing to me while having no opinion on it.
This quote pyramid feels important to me. Vaimes asking "are you going to do something about it" feels incredibly bait-y. Again, I think vaimes is just trying to attract something here. Killjoy again calls vaimes out on shade. T/S 1v1s definitely have more of that going on.
Is it? That's for sure not clear.
And you never specify that in the time around it.
It wasn't obvious so don't pretend like I was supposed to know that.
Uh, no, it was pretty obvious, given it was a direct response to a memepost.
So? That doesn't mean anything. IDK how the town/scum spread of posting memes goes, but maybe there was towniness in Grape's meme. IDK. It wasn't obvious.
(There's no way for me to word that without it sounding aggressive; it's not.)
I'm... Scum reading you for it.
What kind of answer were you expecting here? I'm curious.
I thought you might ask me questions or see how my posting potentially changes over the next several days or something. Shrug.
Carry on.
@Vaimes This one.
The verbiage of it is passive and shades me for not doing these things while at the same time not outright accusing me for it. It's like you attribute a supposed scummy thing to me while having no opinion on it.
That post wasn't an accusation, I just thought you might respond differently. No shade.
What kind of answer were you expecting here? I'm curious.
I thought you might ask me questions or see how my posting potentially changes over the next several days or something. Shrug.
Carry on.
@Vaimes This one.
The verbiage of it is passive and shades me for not doing these things while at the same time not outright accusing me for it. It's like you attribute a supposed scummy thing to me while having no opinion on it.
That post wasn't an accusation, I just thought you might respond differently. No shade.
That's my point. It wasn't an accusation, and it passively shades me for not doing those things.
"Oh, I thought you might do these things" implies "Oh, it's kinda weird that you didn't do these things".
I thought you might ask me questions or see how my posting potentially changes over the next several days or something. Shrug.
Carry on.
@Vaimes This one.
The verbiage of it is passive and shades me for not doing these things while at the same time not outright accusing me for it. It's like you attribute a supposed scummy thing to me while having no opinion on it.
That post wasn't an accusation, I just thought you might respond differently. No shade.
That's my point. It wasn't an accusation, and it passively shades me for not doing those things.
"Oh, I thought you might do these things" implies "Oh, it's kinda weird that you didn't do these things".
Then you misinterpreted it. It's not meant to imply anything more than what was stated. I didn't think your response was scummy, carry on posting, etc.
Is it? That's for sure not clear.
And you never specify that in the time around it.
It wasn't obvious so don't pretend like I was supposed to know that.
Uh, no, it was pretty obvious, given it was a direct response to a memepost.
So? That doesn't mean anything. IDK how the town/scum spread of posting memes goes, but maybe there was towniness in Grape's meme. IDK. It wasn't obvious.
This is important, because your case (or vote) relies heavily on flawed understanding. There's no disconnect because one post was a joke and the other one was part of a read.
Now that you know the context (if you didn't get it the first time), do you stand by your original assertion?
@Vaimes: I understand what you're trying to say here. Here's the issue, though. That "joke" has an alternative, game-relevant meaning. I read it as a kind of derp-clear of Grape (as you can tell) instead of a joke. I actually don't understand the origin of the joke, TBH. Is there some kind of 'stigma' (I feel like this is the wrong word but its the one that came to mind) of people posting memes to appear town? Is it a weird inside joke?
Another issue is that I feel like you're not being very aware of other possible interpretations of your play. Like, you're saying "Oh, I meant this" while apparently expecting me to accept that context as immediately true. I do not.
@Rodemy: I'm not delving into memes. I'm sure you could get 1000 words from that picture but I'm not gonna analyze it too deeply unless it becomes relevant somehow.
@Vaimes: I understand what you're trying to say here. Here's the issue, though. That "joke" has an alternative, game-relevant meaning. I read it as a kind of derp-clear of Grape (as you can tell) instead of a joke. I actually don't understand the origin of the joke, TBH. Is there some kind of 'stigma' (I feel like this is the wrong word but its the one that came to mind) of people posting memes to appear town? Is it a weird inside joke?
Another issue is that I feel like you're not being very aware of other possible interpretations of your play. Like, you're saying "Oh, I meant this" while apparently expecting me to accept that context as immediately true. I do not.
I...see no fathomable way a joke like that could be a derp clear of any sort. I'm inclined to consider memes or jokeposts NAI.
Well, if you don't believe it, that's not really something I can control. You evaluate my response and life goes on.
@Vaimes: I don't see how it could be intended in the manner which you meant it. Saying *shrug*, *shrugs*, or anything similar generally implies the negative meaning, rather than the neutral conversational tone. Imagine saying it verbally, then shrugging physically. This action generally implies shading. However, I'm not sure this can be used as a reason to scum read you, but it is something to keep in mind.
In general, I don't see any variation of shrugging as having any negative connotations. Personally I use it as a filler word a lot, like "hmm."
@Vaimes: I understand what you're trying to say here. Here's the issue, though. That "joke" has an alternative, game-relevant meaning. I read it as a kind of derp-clear of Grape (as you can tell) instead of a joke. I actually don't understand the origin of the joke, TBH. Is there some kind of 'stigma' (I feel like this is the wrong word but its the one that came to mind) of people posting memes to appear town? Is it a weird inside joke?
Another issue is that I feel like you're not being very aware of other possible interpretations of your play. Like, you're saying "Oh, I meant this" while apparently expecting me to accept that context as immediately true. I do not.
I...see no fathomable way a joke like that could be a derp clear of any sort. I'm inclined to consider memes or jokeposts NAI.
Well, if you don't believe it, that's not really something I can control. You evaluate my response and life goes on.
You see no fathomable way that jokingly saying that Grape should get a day 1 pass could be taken as... seriously saying that Grape gets a day 1 pass? Seriously?
Also noticing that you included 'jokes' in there so as to include yourself in this. So it's not just Grape's meme that's NAI, it's jokes. You know, like the one Vaimes told.
This previous ^ spoiler is repetitive and fluffy due to the nature of quote pyramids. The most important thing I get from it is that Killjoy starts attacking Vaimes under supposed misinterpretation of a joke post.
I also would want to lynch KJ if he wasn't my mason buddy because he's really scumming it up out here. Instead I'll just keep pressuring him without strong follow up to distance us.
See, this is a joke.Although it's a bad one that might make bad masons counter claim him. Do not do that.
Now I'm sitting here trying to decide if scum!Grape would be that blatent. I'm not sure.
I don't know what to make of this. If killjoy is scum he knows grapefruit is neither mason nor scum at that point. I don't like the way he turned to "@Everyone" to try and gain more leverage against vaimes.
tl;dr both players are scummy. Killjoy is the one calling out shade where there isn't any and just generally trying to make something stick, so I think he's more likely to be the scum. It's unlikely the argument is s/s, but I guess early distancing is possible.
Also, and this is potentially NAI because reading is a thing, Killjoy was aware that wolves had a day chat. I wouldn't scum read him for this though
Vaimes' scumminess I can understand because in hindsight it looks like this is the exact kind of response they were trying to bait, hopefully from scum.
Re: DBS Killjoy partners;
DBS is looking fine/null in a vaccuum but has weird interactions that I'll get to in another post sometime in the future I think. But basically if killjoy flips scum DBS is gaining scum points for killjoy going after vaimes (who was on DBS initially). DBS also has interactions with vezok that I noted but didn't take notes on and will have to revisit.
Basically, I think we can solve DBS by association to other players.
general thoughts:
I'm going to look further into vezok, since some of his posts before and during the 1v1 between killjoy and vaimes look questionable. They rang some alarm bells.
I'm less suspicious of grapefruit now because if he's killjoy's partner things are looking awful for him. Basically too risky to actually be wolf partners with killjoy.
Also I haven't fully read Mikey's post yet but I'm actually liking it. His conclusion that KJ looks so bad that I can't possibly a wolf supporting him doesn't feel like a conclusion he'd reach as scum. Why shut off the mislynch opportunity on me?
I think it'd be a bit of a bold move to conclude that both KJ and I are super scummy, instead of just picking one of us to side with and sticking to it for consistency's sake.
I think it'd be a bit of a bold move to conclude that both KJ and I are super scummy, instead of just picking one of us to side with and sticking to it for consistency's sake.
His whole game is bold if he's scum here. Which doesn't make him town, but is at least a point that he might be. Plus I think I'm coming around on the point you made earlier that he might just be town here. If not he executed that very well as scum.
I thought grapefruit was claiming mason outside context of seer cover. I already explained it earlier. I thought that they were going to be wolfed first, so I suggested the third claim before we were in a situation that allowed a wolf to fake claim mason. So just ignore that post since now I know grapefruit is a schroedingers mason.
That aggression looked like you felt you had a lot more backup than you did in reality, which seemed overconfident (to the point where you probably have more informed mindset).
Re: your smugness, I think it was your general "this is my first mafia game ever and y'all are bad" attitude. It looks like you're from sites primarily devoted to mafia- this is a MTG forum with a side hobby. Also, speaking as someone from another site as well, other forums aren't better or worse, the meta just develops differently. For example, vaimes thought I was a complete idiot when I got confused over mason cover. I'm not bad at mafia, I've just never seen mason cover before.
it was actually an attempt to get grapefruit to reveal his third partner since I am actually a mason
So sentenza is lock town and a better player than I am; in her first game. I should really up my effort this game but I kind of can't be bothered right now. Just finished hosting a 6 hour DnD session on discord (that I woke up at 6am for...) and cannot think straight at the moment.
Thoughts on some of her posts: I like the focus on KJ. He's town because he's my buddy (or is he?) but the work is good and I can't fault the process. I especially like the expected reaction breakdowns to KJ slowly coming around to the idea that Vaimes giving me a D1 pass was a joke. I would add though that KJ does look better when he finally realizes he might be tunneling and asks everyone for other opinions. Maybe it was a genius bit of damage control but it reads well.
On Rumanashi in general: Ruma is a unique player. Off the Grid three was a game where town fell behind but pulled itself together for an awesome come from behind victory largely on the backs of Mikey, DBS, and Ruma solving it. The problem is the game got tense. Very tense. Ruma is someone who has expressed a belief that trolling as town and generating reactions is a preferred way to play the game. And there was some tension because of that throughout the game. Because of that bit of self meta that has been confirmed by DBS and another player in OtG3 it's really hard to read Ruma. Obvious trolling things like the flashy aggressive entrance are part of the experience and being aloof goes along with it. But you can't just write him off as town because he's playing in a "trolly" fashion because he's aware of the meta read on him. So you have to try and not read the "trolly" parts as AI at all and look for meaning behind them.
I'm not Mikey but I'd guess his warning is stemming from feeling like Ruma was trolling last game and is trolling here and that makes him town. I'd counter his play here isn't in a way that moves the gamestate. He's being dismissive not in a reaction generating way but in a you can't read me way. He's also not doing anything that is moving the game forward at all. Vaimes called it active lurking and I think that fits. I like the shadowboxing characterization Sentenza used. Generating content about nothing that goes nowhere. And I may be misremembering but I didn't feel like that was the case in OtG3. Or I may be being biased by my personal opinions on that sort of playstyle, but I think there is scum intent and it shows in the Vaimes push. The selective reading is another point of evidence but that could just actually be missing things.
I like how literally everyone reads me the same way. I said I'd be holding back and spending more time observing this game (for unrelated reasons) and I'm still getting "pure". Normally it's "like an open book", "stream of consciousness", or something along those lines. This is the first time I've heard pure.
But it does help when people are trying to solve me, so idk if that makes me a good mafia player or a bad one
Exactly grapefruit. Playing a game with people like ruma is dangerous because by normal game standards they're borderline policy lynches. You've played with rumanshi more than I have so I'd be more inclined to listen to your take on it, but as someone who was actually in the game this feels the same way.
Maybe I'm a little bit lost, because we have a claim that grapefruit and killjoy are both masons with an undisclosed third partner that has gone uncountered and uh
people are still suspicious of them?
Like c'mon if you think they're not the real masons then we need the actual mason team to claim
This is pure, for lack of a better word.
Surely a wolf would be aware of how terrible a line of thought this was? Surely a wolf would be aware of the interplay this setup was always going to create?
It's just such an honest thought to have, if you're coming at the game from the perspective of a Level 0 villager.
I suppose a wolf could conceivably play it like this, but I sincerely doubt this degree of purity would hold up once they started to have to make and then more importantly adapt actual reads to changing game circumstances.
Basically, if Emcee_Mikey is a wolf here, I expect it to be really, really obvious on D2.
this post feels towny but is largely irrelevant towards reading me, because my confusion is mostly NAI. Unless you think I would have brought it up in wolf chat I guess
Exactly grapefruit. Playing a game with people like ruma is dangerous because by normal game standards they're borderline policy lynches. You've played with rumanshi more than I have so I'd be more inclined to listen to your take on it, but as someone who was actually in the game this feels the same way.
I actually don't think i have played with Ruma. Just know him by reputation because we both played on mAL at different times. So don't take me as an expert here.
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Be grateful, always."
I disagree. this will lead to late-game confusion. I've seen a game where town lied their way to victory, with me as scum, but I've also seen town literally throw the game by lying. I would say it's up to choice, not "good" at all. for you to suggest that means you're likely scum looking for confusion in a solid setup.
are you familiar with town!Rumanshi?
Be grateful, always."
Vezok: https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/793343-friends-and-enemies-mafia-day-1-getting-to-know?comment=245 "Vote Rumanashi
He's too quiet for his town self.
Also all these Vaimes attack seem to come from a mindset where you want him to be scum and are trying to justify that. Take a look at the bigger picture and you'll see that Vaimes doesn't seem to have any hidden agenda, he's in this to lynch scum.", @
Vaimes: "https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/793343-friends-and-enemies-mafia-day-1-getting-to-know?comment=230" Oh, yay, a vote with no substance! I wonder what that reminds me of?
Grapefruit "https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/793343-friends-and-enemies-mafia-day-1-getting-to-know?comment=241" Look, another one!
I'm sorry for assuming that this was due to activity, when... You said nothing! Woo! TOWN POINTS FOR YOU!
@Grapefruit Post 249 I'd offer something useful if there was anything I had in mind right at the time. Unfortunely, you guys are so focused on 'scum slips' you forget the most important thing -_- Scum are the ones with the knowledge, not the town. So it is about activity. Holdup, but Vaimes said it WASN'T on his side. but it is on yours? META READS FTW.
@Vezok: Post 250 This literally means nothing. It's like the definition of useless posting.
@Sentenza 252 Funnily enough, I actually like this post. Huh.
@Vaimes: 256 Cause I enjoy ******* with META reads. Even if I do rely on them. *shrugs*
@Dota Well, Hi Lincoln! Glad to think you think I'd be such a dumb scum player. Cheers.
@vaimes 268 Your presupposition is that the play is bad, therefore making you disappointed I make it even being an experienced player. You see how your logic is flawed, right?
@Vaimes 269 - Point 1, Vezok voted me for not being as active in another game. Other people didn't say anything with their votes. *shrugs* Coolio.
- Point 2, It doesn't matter right now. There's obviously town paranoia cause everyone's suspecting everyone. You know who the real suspicious people are? The ones who are extremely confident in their reads. I wonder why that would be?
- Point 3, You already have the information that I am an experienced mafia player, and your first assumption is that I'm scum that's made a mistake. Woo.
@Vaimes 270 - It doesn't matter how you read it. It's not how it was intended. *shrugs*
@Grapefruit: 273 - Vaimes close reading is exactly what scum would do, but sure. Keep thinking that.
@Emcee_Mikey : [https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/793343-friends-and-enemies-mafia-day-1-getting-to-know?comment=274]274 Oh, hi, partner /joke
@vaimes: 277 K. I'm not bothered though *shrugs*
@dawningbluesky: 279 Hehehe. Lady Luck, grant me your powers one more time.
@dawningbluesky 280 - In regards to claiming, there are multitudes of situations here. Fake claiming is probably the best way to protect the real masons from night kills, but it will lead to confusion late game. I believe it is situation based and there could be a circumstance when it's logical. That said, i wouldn't recommend it.
Yay for weekends!
I'll do the same too =.=
all's fair in a game, right?
it was confusing more than helpful -.-
ok this got lost in stuff lol.
played with masons before in a closed setup, so the reveal was a surprise. in fact, when masons outed themselves, we considered them anti-using their role - masons are meant to work together in secret, not live off a claim. adding to confusion with 'cover operations' or lies also does not help like you think it does. I've seen lying happen in an open setup, complete with all the switcheroos, and it was hilarious how town shot its own foot. //sarcasm// .-.
Be grateful, always."
yeah I'm aware of the idea that fakeclaiming would safeguard the real masons. town fakeclaiming is generally for that purpose. it worked well in the one game we know, but it also worked against town (who were in the lead by 2 days from the start). I think you weren't in that game? here lol
Be grateful, always."
As far as the mason stuff goes:
If town fakeclaim mason, we can tentatively clear players based on the nightkill. Assuming mafia is actively trying to hit the masons (and they should, that's 3 confirmed town players who know each other before lylo), when a player flips we can assume that mafia thought they were masons and thus their fake "mason buddies" can be assumed to be town. For example, if I die in the night, Rumanshi is more likely to be town. If grapefruit dies in the night, Killjoy is more likely to be town.
Ultimately I'm wasting a lot of words discussing mechanics, but I find town cover to be a super cool concept and I've seen it work well in all games I've played with it, so I support it here.
Not saying you're wrong for disliking it, just saying maybe you haven't considered all the benefits yet.
and also, when did you claim?? inb4 we get rekt. for the record I've only seen 2 games of which 1 was good while 1 was bad, so it's a solid 50/50 for me that it is even a good idea. what is the count for your experience that you would consider it good at all? it leads to confusion, and I disagree with it.
Be grateful, always."
Like I know all three of you can solve games and I've seen you solve as many or more games than I have (whopping total of 1 game ever correctly solved while still alive...) but I don't understand why you're saying any of what you're saying.
Ruma yes my vote post was naked, but if you'd read the game before that you'd know I'd been scum reading you for how dismissive you were being. I outline it with a joke in 143 and a bit more but still pretty shallow depth in 162. And you continuing to dismiss and shade everything you don't agree with in 281 makes you seem scummy. I know you have a "unique" town meta, but I don't know your play well enough to judge you otherwise so when I seem what appears to be an uncalled for handwave I'm going to scum read it. And because I know a bit of your meta I'm definitely not going to do a meta dive because I'm pretty sure it would be decidedly unhelpful. So you get to get read like you're a normal generic average mafia player.
@DBS You're overthinking it. Badly overthinking it. Also you can stop pretending we both know you're my real mason buddy. That KJ stuff was just a lie.
Well yes and no. In scum ruma, town mikey, ruma shoots you and he gets a massive boost of town points. If you have no idea who the masons might be this is just WIFOM. The whole Mason claims are all WIFOM until the masons are up for a lynch or killed during the night.
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Ok, let me expound on that then.
Like, none of these really accomplish the scum wincon. What does it do for him? Scum posts tend to have some kind of purpose that further their wincons (working toward getting a townie lynched, making posts that blend in with town) which these don't do.
The rest of his posts (though specifically 248 and 281) seem to be a growing frustration that people are getting up his ass for not being here when he just has little time. That might be NAI? I know I've done it before, and it tends to happen to me more as town.
Oh. You misunderstood that I think.
That was actually two seperate thoughts. "I would argue that Ruma's attitude is generally townie" being the first one, and the rest being the second. My point there was that pressuring him now (meaning literally interupting him from actively lurking to accuse him of actively lurking at this point in the game) is premature. If he is indeed purposefully not doing things to blend in, he hasn't been doing it long enough to accurately prove it at this point. When you are trying to make a case for active lurking, forcing them to do things is the exact opposite of what you wanna do.
That was what I was trying to say.
Can you explain this more?
There is a lot of bias in this statement. You see that, don't you?
So.
Town:
Emcee Mikey
Rodemy
Lean town:
Senteza
Ruma
Lightly LEan Town
Tubba
Unsure Where to Put:
Grape
Dota
Dawn
Null because lack of content:
Huntz
Dan
Lean scumreads:
Vezok
Scum:
Vaimes
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As for your continuing read that his *pressure intensifies* post does nothing to accomplish his scum win con that's like a super reachy reach. People make fluff posts. Espcecially people who come from MAL. They have a very relaxed social type game and most people there fluff post as either alignment. It also does nothing to advance his town win condition.
I'll agree his frustration reads naturally and the specific frustration at the naked votes (that were justified before they were made) does seem townie. But for me it's not enough to outweigh his general dismissive posts. Which are furthering a scum win condition.
Also Vezok's question about why Mikey is that high needs an answer. And I'd like one for Rodemy as well.
gotta think about how I feel about Killjoy in general now, the mason claim may have confused me when I didn't understand it
hngggh
This is implying that you think Mikey doesn't deserve to be there. Where would you place him and why?
I don't like his defense of Ruma, but in rest he's pretty null scum right now.
The problem isn't the mismatch of reads, it's just that he didn't do anything to justify being at the top his list.
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Rod thought DoTA was being defensive, even though Rod said he wasn't suspicious of him. But Rod used a phrase that conveys suspicion 99.9% of the time, period. I was pointing that out. And if you had actually read that conversation, you would see that Rod agrees. Also, I never called Rod scummy for that point.
Feel free to disagree, I can't stop you. But the whole point of vanilla towns is to try and draw attention away from the actual PRs. Which means town are going to lie, or at least hint at being a Mason. This is true in literally all non-mountainous mafia games across the board. Things can always be cleared up later. The whole "lying = scum(my)" thing is something you should use your brain and context clues to determine if it holds or not. Even if you're scum, I vibe with this sentiment so much. It's like people are looking at isolated posts and going on their merry way as if it means they understood the conversation where those posts took place.
-
Gonna respond to Killjoy and Ruma in separate posts because I'm already exhausted.
I did not naked vote you. I accused you of actively lurking. It says so right there in the post where I voted you.
Are you sure you're town?
-
Killjoy, how about this: no one voted Ruma for lurking, they voted him because the posts he made when he -was- posting were bad. Him reacting to the case as if it's all about his lack of presence is actually something I find to be a very specific scumtell. If someone so much as mentions thread activity, even in passing, scum will sometimes react as if the case against them is 100% about their activity, even if it totally wasn't.
I've caught scum!Iso this way (and proceeded to let him get away with it :V) as well as one or two other scum players offsite with this tell. Wanna see if it holds?
-
If anyone disagrees with Mikey being town, I'd rather you speak up sooner or later. I'm kinda ready to lock the read in tbh.
This ends your daily round of Vaimes spamposting.
Mike has this... newb town vibe to him due to his general level of confusion and tone. Given that scum have daychat, I do not believe he is scum.
Ruma I literally made a big explainy post to Vaimes about.
Can you provide a scumlist from you? A full one, if you'd please.
Tell me about how Ruma usually is. I'm generally unfamiliar with his meta. I think I've maybe been in one game with him.
Rodemy's talk with Vaimes is why I have a townread on him.
You voted him for active lurking. You literally say so earlier in this post. Why is this the first mention of the other reasons for voting him?
I can, however, see where that theory might be a thing. The issue is I think I've done that as town before. Also I'm not sure it's the case this game with Ruma.
Hm. That's fair, although it's still a little sketchy that you've come up with additional reasons for Ruma to be scum besides active lurking now.
Question for you: Vezok has made it clear that he disagrees with this read.
Does this affect your townread on him? IF so why? Do you think his not agreeing with this shows a lack of townsolving or do you think there's another reason for it?
Killjoy.
I voted him for active lurking, and then I left my vote on him when he responded to that vote with "thanks for voting me for having a life!" which is not even close to what I (or anyone) said.
Since those reasons now exist, I added them to my scumread of him so that people can see where my current, updated read is coming from. Those reasons obviously don't apply to why I made the original vote, because the post Ruma made afterwards didn't exist yet.
Please stop reading all of my posts through scum-tinted lenses and work with me here.
vezok, why are you doing this.
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I feel like I was way too wordy with my last post. To put it simply, I voted him for active lurking, and am going to keep pushing for him to be lynched due to how he responded to that vote until I am convinced he is town or someone else grabs my attention.
ehhh... how is that overthinking it? and nope, I ain't part of that mess.
I'm always up for lynching lurkers. having someone play longer in a game makes them easier to read later, as well.
Be grateful, always."
While it's close, I think after giving reasoning behind killjoy's townread of me he looks a lot scummier than Vaimes does. We shall see if Vaimes is right about being unquestionably towny after D2...
unvote
Vote: Vaimes
let's hope this is right
also I just realized that this game is literally gonna go on most of the summer unless we hit wolves/insta frequently
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dawn, what on earth do you mean by “the current Vaimes”?
unvote
Vote: Killjoy
looks like my fingers are determined to scum read you
Be grateful, always."
also, how did you come to the conclusion that Vaimes/Killjoy are t/s? Killjoy had Vaimes on a townlean and Vezok as a suspect iirc.
Be grateful, always."
If I'm a mason, Rumanshi is as well.
That conclusion might take a while to cite but I'll get back to you with some kinda progression/quote chain
Maybe DV and I should roll scum together and see what happens.
@Iso welcome!
@Vaimes I'm torn on Mikey. I'll get back to you on him later.
@KJ I don't have a firm grasp of his meta but enough to know Ruma is unafraid to ruffles feathers. In fact to the point where if he didn't behavw loudly it would be notable.
So his analysis of the huge 1v1 (which I will get to individually further down) is that it originally seemed t/t to him but was coming around to seeing killjoy's point of view- that is, Vaimes scum. I agree that the argument is t/s because typically t/s arguments are more shallow than t/t arguments. Both town think they're right and the 1v1s tend to get heated. This 1v1 is a lot more in line with t/s situations I've seen. By no means hard and fast, but tubba and I are picking up on the same types of stuff here (reaching a different conclusion from it).
Here's the 1v1, and I apologize because IDK how multi-quote works so these may be out of order. Just read the whole thing at once, close enough.
I was originally scum reading this quote but it could also be town just trying to throw out thoughts. It definitely looks like a scummy post so a theoretical town killjoy will still jump on it- I think vaimes is intentionally playing this way to try and bait certain reactions?
This was to Dota, I think. Ironically, doing what he later accused vaimes of (seeking a mislynch).
This is notable as the point where killjoy votes for vaimes. Almost looks like a scum play pattern between killjoy and DBS... which I'll get to, I promise. The important part is that Killjoy is responding to vaimes' scum read of DBS under the pretense of doubling up on Grapefruit.
Shade has been called
At this point I would say the 1v1 is developing into a T/S pattern. Killjoy calling out vaimes for shade is a good indicator of that imo. At this point though I'd say vaimes is the scum.
AAAAND pause. This is where the balance starts to shift and I think Vaimes brings up a good point, is probably right.
This quote pyramid feels important to me. Vaimes asking "are you going to do something about it" feels incredibly bait-y. Again, I think vaimes is just trying to attract something here. Killjoy again calls vaimes out on shade. T/S 1v1s definitely have more of that going on.
I don't know what to make of this. If killjoy is scum he knows grapefruit is neither mason nor scum at that point. I don't like the way he turned to "@Everyone" to try and gain more leverage against vaimes.
tl;dr both players are scummy. Killjoy is the one calling out shade where there isn't any and just generally trying to make something stick, so I think he's more likely to be the scum. It's unlikely the argument is s/s, but I guess early distancing is possible.
Also, and this is potentially NAI because reading is a thing, Killjoy was aware that wolves had a day chat. I wouldn't scum read him for this though
Vaimes' scumminess I can understand because in hindsight it looks like this is the exact kind of response they were trying to bait, hopefully from scum.
Re: DBS Killjoy partners;
DBS is looking fine/null in a vaccuum but has weird interactions that I'll get to in another post sometime in the future I think. But basically if killjoy flips scum DBS is gaining scum points for killjoy going after vaimes (who was on DBS initially). DBS also has interactions with vezok that I noted but didn't take notes on and will have to revisit.
Basically, I think we can solve DBS by association to other players.
general thoughts:
I'm going to look further into vezok, since some of his posts before and during the 1v1 between killjoy and vaimes look questionable. They rang some alarm bells.
I'm less suspicious of grapefruit now because if he's killjoy's partner things are looking awful for him. Basically too risky to actually be wolf partners with killjoy.
what is happening to me, I'm turning into one of those armchair players
Vaimes - 93
Grapefruit21 - 39
I need help.
Am I seriously number 2? That doesn't feel right.
Also I haven't fully read Mikey's post yet but I'm actually liking it. His conclusion that KJ looks so bad that I can't possibly a wolf supporting him doesn't feel like a conclusion he'd reach as scum. Why shut off the mislynch opportunity on me?
Grape/KJ/DBS
Sentenza, Vaimes, Mikey
tubba, Rod
Vezok
Iso, Dan, DBS (if not for mason powers)
KJ (if not for mason powers), Dota
Ruma
His whole game is bold if he's scum here. Which doesn't make him town, but is at least a point that he might be. Plus I think I'm coming around on the point you made earlier that he might just be town here. If not he executed that very well as scum.
Don't make the same mistake I did
I like your thoughts on killjoy/vaimes, partially because they're similar to what I eventually arrived at
That aggression looked like you felt you had a lot more backup than you did in reality, which seemed overconfident (to the point where you probably have more informed mindset).
Re: your smugness, I think it was your general "this is my first mafia game ever and y'all are bad" attitude. It looks like you're from sites primarily devoted to mafia- this is a MTG forum with a side hobby. Also, speaking as someone from another site as well, other forums aren't better or worse, the meta just develops differently. For example, vaimes thought I was a complete idiot when I got confused over mason cover. I'm not bad at mafia, I've just never seen mason cover before.
it was actually an attempt to get grapefruit to reveal his third partner since I am actually a masonThoughts on some of her posts: I like the focus on KJ. He's town because he's my buddy (or is he?) but the work is good and I can't fault the process. I especially like the expected reaction breakdowns to KJ slowly coming around to the idea that Vaimes giving me a D1 pass was a joke. I would add though that KJ does look better when he finally realizes he might be tunneling and asks everyone for other opinions. Maybe it was a genius bit of damage control but it reads well.
On Rumanashi in general: Ruma is a unique player. Off the Grid three was a game where town fell behind but pulled itself together for an awesome come from behind victory largely on the backs of Mikey, DBS, and Ruma solving it. The problem is the game got tense. Very tense. Ruma is someone who has expressed a belief that trolling as town and generating reactions is a preferred way to play the game. And there was some tension because of that throughout the game. Because of that bit of self meta that has been confirmed by DBS and another player in OtG3 it's really hard to read Ruma. Obvious trolling things like the flashy aggressive entrance are part of the experience and being aloof goes along with it. But you can't just write him off as town because he's playing in a "trolly" fashion because he's aware of the meta read on him. So you have to try and not read the "trolly" parts as AI at all and look for meaning behind them.
I'm not Mikey but I'd guess his warning is stemming from feeling like Ruma was trolling last game and is trolling here and that makes him town. I'd counter his play here isn't in a way that moves the gamestate. He's being dismissive not in a reaction generating way but in a you can't read me way. He's also not doing anything that is moving the game forward at all. Vaimes called it active lurking and I think that fits. I like the shadowboxing characterization Sentenza used. Generating content about nothing that goes nowhere. And I may be misremembering but I didn't feel like that was the case in OtG3. Or I may be being biased by my personal opinions on that sort of playstyle, but I think there is scum intent and it shows in the Vaimes push. The selective reading is another point of evidence but that could just actually be missing things.
But it does help when people are trying to solve me, so idk if that makes me a good mafia player or a bad one
I actually don't think i have played with Ruma. Just know him by reputation because we both played on mAL at different times. So don't take me as an expert here.