Because I'm scum just saying stuff because I know it won't matter because he's gonna flip town
he chose me for neighbor then treated me like he knew I was town all along
I guess I'm not sure how much of the latter was in this thread as opposed to the hood though
Tom asked shadow to join him on a wagon and shadow did so. I think scum shadow would have been more reserved about doing so immediately.
And I confirm I picked tom.
Since you've confirmed this, can you also talk about why you town read Tom so heavily? And also go over your Dan read since you didn't explain that. Why do you think scum Shadow would have been more reserved?
Tom has asked me different questions since the beginning in the chat. I usually treat my neighbours as town and decide if they are scum later. If tom was scum I feel that he could have stopped the questioning and I would have probably been none the wiser, The tone of his posts in the neighbourhood also seems more townie than I've ever seen tom.
I'm town reading dan for his response to your question mostly and for his response to my question. I've explained that in earlier posts, but nice try.
Because shadow seems to me to be more calculating as scum than as town. I don't doubt that shadow would follow tom even as scum, but I highly doubt that it would do it so quickly.
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Not enough time today to suitably post, but I have asked my neighbor for their blessing to reveal our neighborhood. Not that I care, but it's a two way street, right?
This does narrow the field considerably, but it seems pretty narrow already.
Tom has asked me different questions since the beginning in the chat. I usually treat my neighbours as town and decide if they are scum later. If tom was scum I feel that he could have stopped the questioning and I would have probably been none the wiser, The tone of his posts in the neighbourhood also seems more townie than I've ever seen tom.
I'm town reading dan for his response to your question mostly and for his response to my question. I've explained that in earlier posts, but nice try.
Because shadow seems to me to be more calculating as scum than as town. I don't doubt that shadow would follow tom even as scum, but I highly doubt that it would do it so quickly.
I don't really get why scum Tom would stop questioning you, or why it would be a sensible idea to default assume the neighbour you chose is town by default. You didn't explain your Dan read in your reads post and I wanted a full consolidated explanation of it, but nice try. Why do you doubt Shadow would follow Tom that quickly - since it disagrees with Tom's assessment in #189.
Overall, I don't hate you reads. You have them, which is better than some people (Bur, Dan). They're not hugely fleshed out but there isn't SO much going on in the game that that's unreasonable. TBH if you'd made that post when I'd voted you I'd probably have pressed you less. But your OMGUS on me is just so bad. If you're going to contend that the defining feature of my scum meta is that I make attacks for bad reasons you have to actually demonstrate that I do that more as scum than town, and that my reasons here are bad. Instead you've just switched straight to 100% ECO R SCUM RAWR based on maybe 2 quotes without context that incorrectly call some reasons for attacking people bad. There just isn't enough evidence to for you to be as sure as you are, which makes me think you don't believe I'm scum, you've just decided I am and went to try and find the bare minimum of evidence you could.
Tom has asked me different questions since the beginning in the chat. I usually treat my neighbours as town and decide if they are scum later. If tom was scum I feel that he could have stopped the questioning and I would have probably been none the wiser, The tone of his posts in the neighbourhood also seems more townie than I've ever seen tom.
I'm town reading dan for his response to your question mostly and for his response to my question. I've explained that in earlier posts, but nice try.
Because shadow seems to me to be more calculating as scum than as town. I don't doubt that shadow would follow tom even as scum, but I highly doubt that it would do it so quickly.
I don't really get why scum Tom would stop questioning you, or why it would be a sensible idea to default assume the neighbour you chose is town by default. You didn't explain your Dan read in your reads post and I wanted a full consolidated explanation of it, but nice try. Why do you doubt Shadow would follow Tom that quickly - since it disagrees with Tom's assessment in #189.
Overall, I don't hate you reads. You have them, which is better than some people (Bur, Dan). They're not hugely fleshed out but there isn't SO much going on in the game that that's unreasonable. TBH if you'd made that post when I'd voted you I'd probably have pressed you less. But your OMGUS on me is just so bad. If you're going to contend that the defining feature of my scum meta is that I make attacks for bad reasons you have to actually demonstrate that I do that more as scum than town, and that my reasons here are bad. Instead you've just switched straight to 100% ECO R SCUM RAWR based on maybe 2 quotes without context that incorrectly call some reasons for attacking people bad. There just isn't enough evidence to for you to be as sure as you are, which makes me think you don't believe I'm scum, you've just decided I am and went to try and find the bare minimum of evidence you could.
I agree that from an outside perspective it looked like an OMGUS vote, but I was beginning to suspect you since you first started questioning me. I asked tom for your meta in order to decide what to with you. I had stuff to do and it just so happened that I only had time to read your scum game after you voted me and decided that you were in fact scum.
My primary reason was your hypocrisy in the way you answered almost the same question you posed to me. The voting for terrible reasons was more of an aside and I admit that I haven't yet read one of your recent town games, but I've played with you long ago and remembered that your cases were very convincing and well-made. I will try to find time tomorrow to read your town game as today I'm celebrating my birthday.
Being supremely confident in my reads when I shouldn't really be is one of my flaws, but I don't really intend to change it. I mostly play mafia cause I like the game and want to learn to express my thoughts better in writing.
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But what hypocrisy? I asked you what your reads were and expressed concerns that your posts were very neutral/non-committal. The post from the Invitational you quoted was me answering the question "if you had a mandatory vig shot you had to fire who would you shoot?" which I didn't like because reads are rarely that confident early in the game. At the time I ALSO had a vote on a player and was the subject of a wagon - so there's absolutely nothing unreasonable expecting some sort of read. You're trying to equate asking you for any kind of reads at all with "hit a vig shot or lose" which are very clearly not equivalent questions, which is disingenous at best and downright kowingly misleading at worst.
You're right that when I play town I usually have convincing and well made cases. I do exactly the same thing as scum. But I don't really know how detailed or well constructed a case you can realistically expect ~200 posts into a game.
Making a concsious choice to play poorly is not something I really appreciate but at least you recognize it?
Quicktopic appears to be down. I am working on an alternative solution so the game can progress in the interim. Hopefully it's back soon and we don't have to scramble.
@Tom: do you intend to explain your actions at, like, any point? How about what you've gathered from both chats? Did you figure out your conclusion about how Vezok was treating you? I wouldn't say there were exactly extensive interactions between he and you in the game thread.
@Rodemy: can you provide an example re: Shadow demonstrating his towniness? Could that differ between PR & vanilla, as opposed to just town & scum? Also, do you specifically have thoughts on Tom's about-face from voting with Shadow, to voting against him?
I have thoughts on Vezok that I am currently withholding. Bur knows them. @Bur also will remember to answer my question in the game thread when he makes the extended response he owes us at this point.
---
@Eco: Consider this me acknowledging 144. One thing, though:
I totally accept that your reads we in their infancy, and I respect that they weren't IRONCLAD HARD CLEARS. My overarching point is that I think were giving town reads out for things which didn't deserve town reads to players who scum would pick as people to pick as town reads because that's easier than trying to lynch them and maybe you can pocket them.
snip
I don't mean to say "wow ur reason r bad u suk lol" I mean "I don't think your reasons justify your town reads because they are easily within the scum range of those players specifically, and I think a decent proportion of the playerbase at large". As for what I want? Really just for you to think about your initial reads and make sure you are happy with them.
Emphasis mine. Did you accidentally a word in the bolded section of the first paragraph, or an apostrophe? And as for the second paragraph, do you think that my reads need further developing, or are the foundations shaky to the point where they need reworking? Really hoping it's not the latter, considering my existing concerns about the game length.
Also, what are your thoughts on the extended Rodemy/Tom conversation that is taking up most of our thread?
@Dan I've mostly said what I want to say to who I want to say it, but I've kept pretty poor track of what I've said where.
In general though, I'm partially eschewing scumhunting for team building, and trying to solve all at once and remaining fluid.
Like I've still got some reads. But they're just gonna end up being tiebreakers.
With vezok claim it seems imminently solvable, especially tomorrow which I'm all but garaunteed to be alive for
I have thoughts on Vezok that I am currently withholding. Bur knows them.
I am very keen to know what these were for obvious reasons. And also why you didn't just say them here?
Quote from Dan »
Emphasis mine. Did you accidentally a word in the bolded section of the first paragraph, or an apostrophe?
Missing word "you", as in "I think [you] were giving town reads out..."
Quote from Dan »
And as for the second paragraph, do you think that my reads need further developing, or are the foundations shaky to the point where they need reworking? Really hoping it's not the latter, considering my existing concerns about the game length.
Both. What are your concerns about game length?
Quote from Dan »
Also, what are your thoughts on the extended Rodemy/Tom conversation that is taking up most of our thread?
That it is taking up most of the thread is a sad indicator of how poor activity (in this thread at least) has been.
It’s good for scum in that Vezok claiming Vanilla probably gets lynched anyway, at least this way he goes down with the jailer outed and maybe even gets the actual jailer lynched instead.
I’m down for a Vezok lynch, will wait to drop a vote until we’re ready.
It’s good for scum in that Vezok claiming Vanilla probably gets lynched anyway, at least this way he goes down with the jailer outed and maybe even gets the actual jailer lynched instead.
I’m down for a Vezok lynch, will wait to drop a vote until we’re ready.
Wait? Huh? Why? Its eco or vezok. You chose vezok. Vote.
I am not lynching vezok. Somebody please tell me i'm not completely crazy.
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Rodemy Pizza
It’s not the best choice, but it’s a choice nonetheless
Rodemy, look, you need to step back and consider the whole picture. There are two possible scenarios here:
1) Scum Vezok realises he's in trouble because no-one is interested in his trash-tier Eco case and he's sliding inexoriably into being the Day's default lynch. He therefore attempts to salvage something for his team by claiming Jailer: he reveals the jailer for the NK and maybe with a big slice of luck gets the jailer lynched instead of himself. It's not much, but better than just getting lynched for nothing. Eco, the Jailer, sees the claim and considers it a very fair trade to potentially eat the NK in exchange for guaranteeing scum D1. He waits to counter claim to see what reactions are: yes, the initial reaction is people sayin "ok" and unvoting, but with under 48 hours from claim to the deadline people should be scrambling for new wagons, giving us voting records and forcing lurkers to take a stand. Vezok's scum buddy in particular has to content with the cognitive dissonance of knowing Vezok is lying without it being public knowledge. Whereas if Eco counterclaimed immediately, everyone is free to stop playing the game and say "cool got one" and just lynch Vezok.
2) Town Jailer Vezok has played scummily and - seeing himself up for lynch - claims. Scum Eco for some reason decides to throw away all of the town points he has accumulated so far and sacrfice himself to push the lynch through. He doesn't decide to just push another wagon (like this convenient Shadow wagon, or maybe a soft lurker like Vur or Dan) but instead throws his life away to lynch Vezok. Maybe he's panicing (out of character) and trying to save his scum buddy Shadow, but in that case why sacrifice Eco's strong position instead of just having Shadow claim Jailer? Or just...start a different wagon?
It's just so clear that I have incredibly little to gain by throwing my position as highly town read just for the sake of lynching a Jailer (which is not hugely impactful, especially if both scum are still alive), compared to how scum Vezok has something to gain by drawing out the counterclaim before he dies. Once you factor actual behvaioural analysis into it, I don't understand how you can possibly think I'd be the scum in this situation.
Rodemy, look, you need to step back and consider the whole picture. There are two possible scenarios here:
1) Scum Vezok realises he's in trouble because no-one is interested in his trash-tier Eco case and he's sliding inexoriably into being the Day's default lynch. He therefore attempts to salvage something for his team by claiming Jailer: he reveals the jailer for the NK and maybe with a big slice of luck gets the jailer lynched instead of himself. It's not much, but better than just getting lynched for nothing. Eco, the Jailer, sees the claim and considers it a very fair trade to potentially eat the NK in exchange for guaranteeing scum D1. He waits to counter claim to see what reactions are: yes, the initial reaction is people sayin "ok" and unvoting, but with under 48 hours from claim to the deadline people should be scrambling for new wagons, giving us voting records and forcing lurkers to take a stand. Vezok's scum buddy in particular has to content with the cognitive dissonance of knowing Vezok is lying without it being public knowledge. Whereas if Eco counterclaimed immediately, everyone is free to stop playing the game and say "cool got one" and just lynch Vezok.
2) Town Jailer Vezok has played scummily and - seeing himself up for lynch - claims. Scum Eco for some reason decides to throw away all of the town points he has accumulated so far and sacrfice himself to push the lynch through. He doesn't decide to just push another wagon (like this convenient Shadow wagon, or maybe a soft lurker like Vur or Dan) but instead throws his life away to lynch Vezok. Maybe he's panicing (out of character) and trying to save his scum buddy Shadow, but in that case why sacrifice Eco's strong position instead of just having Shadow claim Jailer? Or just...start a different wagon?
It's just so clear that I have incredibly little to gain by throwing my position as highly town read just for the sake of lynching a Jailer (which is not hugely impactful, especially if both scum are still alive), compared to how scum Vezok has something to gain by drawing out the counterclaim before he dies. Once you factor actual behvaioural analysis into it, I don't understand how you can possibly think I'd be the scum in this situation.
Why are you trying to over-explain? Rodemy understood this. You're trying to push a lynch on me, because everybody is lurking and we won't be able to make another wagon.
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And it clicked. Cool. Good chat.
I guess I'm not sure how much of the latter was in this thread as opposed to the hood though
Tom has asked me different questions since the beginning in the chat. I usually treat my neighbours as town and decide if they are scum later. If tom was scum I feel that he could have stopped the questioning and I would have probably been none the wiser, The tone of his posts in the neighbourhood also seems more townie than I've ever seen tom.
I'm town reading dan for his response to your question mostly and for his response to my question. I've explained that in earlier posts, but nice try.
Because shadow seems to me to be more calculating as scum than as town. I don't doubt that shadow would follow tom even as scum, but I highly doubt that it would do it so quickly.
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I like tom. To be fair, it was between you and him, but I decided to pick tom cause I think he's more funny.
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This does narrow the field considerably, but it seems pretty narrow already.
Didjya see that? Those rusty gears turning? That right there..
Progress.
Bur (1): tomsloger
Vezokpiraka (2): Ecophagy, Rodemny
Ecophagy (1): Vezokpiraka
Note voting 3: Bur, Ganderin_Dan, shadowlancerx
With 7 alive it takes four to lynch.
Deadline is in roughly 3.5 days.
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Thanks, fixing the VC.
I don't really get why scum Tom would stop questioning you, or why it would be a sensible idea to default assume the neighbour you chose is town by default. You didn't explain your Dan read in your reads post and I wanted a full consolidated explanation of it, but nice try. Why do you doubt Shadow would follow Tom that quickly - since it disagrees with Tom's assessment in #189.
Overall, I don't hate you reads. You have them, which is better than some people (Bur, Dan). They're not hugely fleshed out but there isn't SO much going on in the game that that's unreasonable. TBH if you'd made that post when I'd voted you I'd probably have pressed you less. But your OMGUS on me is just so bad. If you're going to contend that the defining feature of my scum meta is that I make attacks for bad reasons you have to actually demonstrate that I do that more as scum than town, and that my reasons here are bad. Instead you've just switched straight to 100% ECO R SCUM RAWR based on maybe 2 quotes without context that incorrectly call some reasons for attacking people bad. There just isn't enough evidence to for you to be as sure as you are, which makes me think you don't believe I'm scum, you've just decided I am and went to try and find the bare minimum of evidence you could.
I agree that from an outside perspective it looked like an OMGUS vote, but I was beginning to suspect you since you first started questioning me. I asked tom for your meta in order to decide what to with you. I had stuff to do and it just so happened that I only had time to read your scum game after you voted me and decided that you were in fact scum.
My primary reason was your hypocrisy in the way you answered almost the same question you posed to me. The voting for terrible reasons was more of an aside and I admit that I haven't yet read one of your recent town games, but I've played with you long ago and remembered that your cases were very convincing and well-made. I will try to find time tomorrow to read your town game as today I'm celebrating my birthday.
Being supremely confident in my reads when I shouldn't really be is one of my flaws, but I don't really intend to change it. I mostly play mafia cause I like the game and want to learn to express my thoughts better in writing.
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You're right that when I play town I usually have convincing and well made cases. I do exactly the same thing as scum. But I don't really know how detailed or well constructed a case you can realistically expect ~200 posts into a game.
Making a concsious choice to play poorly is not something I really appreciate but at least you recognize it?
Have a happy birthday though!
Vezok, i wrote you a birthday song. Sing along with me now, friends!
Happy birthday to you
I think you're scum, too!
We're all happy neighbors
NowDieSoWeCanWinTheGame, woo!
Vezok/shadow scumteam is looking pretty good right now
So expect me to lurk until hammer time I guess.
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There we go.
Can I persuade you to join the Ecophagy wagon instead?
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I'm not lynching Eco toDay.
If shadow flips scum, you can jail him tonight?
I’ll be back tomorrow.
But that wouldn't be condusive tomy wincon. ♡
@Tom: do you intend to explain your actions at, like, any point? How about what you've gathered from both chats? Did you figure out your conclusion about how Vezok was treating you? I wouldn't say there were exactly extensive interactions between he and you in the game thread.
@Rodemy: can you provide an example re: Shadow demonstrating his towniness? Could that differ between PR & vanilla, as opposed to just town & scum? Also, do you specifically have thoughts on Tom's about-face from voting with Shadow, to voting against him?
I have thoughts on Vezok that I am currently withholding. Bur knows them. @Bur also will remember to answer my question in the game thread when he makes the extended response he owes us at this point.
---
@Eco: Consider this me acknowledging 144. One thing, though:
Emphasis mine. Did you accidentally a word in the bolded section of the first paragraph, or an apostrophe? And as for the second paragraph, do you think that my reads need further developing, or are the foundations shaky to the point where they need reworking? Really hoping it's not the latter, considering my existing concerns about the game length.
Also, what are your thoughts on the extended Rodemy/Tom conversation that is taking up most of our thread?
In general though, I'm partially eschewing scumhunting for team building, and trying to solve all at once and remaining fluid.
Like I've still got some reads. But they're just gonna end up being tiebreakers.
With vezok claim it seems imminently solvable, especially tomorrow which I'm all but garaunteed to be alive for
I like bur/shadow wagons unless someone CCs vezok
Vezokpiraka (1): Ecophagy
Ecophagy (1): Vezokpiraka
Shadowlancerx (2): Rodemny, tomsloger
Note voting 3: Bur, Ganderin_Dan, shadowlancerx
With 7 alive it takes four to lynch.
VC done on phone and I'm pretty sure I missed a vote but can't find it. Let me know if I'm missing something.
Deadline is in roughly 24 hours.
I am the jailkeeper. Vezok is scum.
Let's not end the Day until Bur and Shadow have posted at least.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
I am very keen to know what these were for obvious reasons. And also why you didn't just say them here?
Missing word "you", as in "I think [you] were giving town reads out..."
Both. What are your concerns about game length?
That it is taking up most of the thread is a sad indicator of how poor activity (in this thread at least) has been.
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ACTUALLY vote eco
I think my idea of jailing him if shadow flips scum is the exact reason for the CC.
It makes sense. Get the jailer killed, still have an nk, lose one scum. It's overall a good bargin.
Lets kill eco and jail shadow.
You may be forgetting how small this game is
Anyway that's 2-2 wagons. back to waiting on people unless you want to change your vote
If you believe it try to lynch eco I guess but what is this?
Me saying why i am voting eco?
This is a nonissue
Yes.
For the very reason i was thinking earlier.
Idk, i dont think vezok would fake a jailer claim juat to be counterclaimed and then lynched.
Yeah, it outs the jailer, but that doesnt help scum too much in the longrun.
ESSPECIALLY if the real jailer jails the other scum.
Ita weird that eco, the guy pushing the vezok lynch counterclaims.
"I was waiting for reactions to his claim"
Like, the only reaction to the jailer claim is to unvote or go "okay" both of which say nothing.
Eco ia gambiting on us lynching the real jailer.
5/2 lynch jailer
4/2 nightkill
3/2 lynch eco
3/1 nightkill
2/1 chaos.
If it is vezok.
5/2 lynch scum
4/1 kill eco (unless he jails scum)
4(3)/1 better odds for town.
Scum!Vezok claiming jailer isnt good for scum.
Someone can tell me how i am wrong now ._.
I’m down for a Vezok lynch, will wait to drop a vote until we’re ready.
Wait? Huh? Why? Its eco or vezok. You chose vezok. Vote.
I am not lynching vezok. Somebody please tell me i'm not completely crazy.
1) Scum Vezok realises he's in trouble because no-one is interested in his trash-tier Eco case and he's sliding inexoriably into being the Day's default lynch. He therefore attempts to salvage something for his team by claiming Jailer: he reveals the jailer for the NK and maybe with a big slice of luck gets the jailer lynched instead of himself. It's not much, but better than just getting lynched for nothing. Eco, the Jailer, sees the claim and considers it a very fair trade to potentially eat the NK in exchange for guaranteeing scum D1. He waits to counter claim to see what reactions are: yes, the initial reaction is people sayin "ok" and unvoting, but with under 48 hours from claim to the deadline people should be scrambling for new wagons, giving us voting records and forcing lurkers to take a stand. Vezok's scum buddy in particular has to content with the cognitive dissonance of knowing Vezok is lying without it being public knowledge. Whereas if Eco counterclaimed immediately, everyone is free to stop playing the game and say "cool got one" and just lynch Vezok.
2) Town Jailer Vezok has played scummily and - seeing himself up for lynch - claims. Scum Eco for some reason decides to throw away all of the town points he has accumulated so far and sacrfice himself to push the lynch through. He doesn't decide to just push another wagon (like this convenient Shadow wagon, or maybe a soft lurker like Vur or Dan) but instead throws his life away to lynch Vezok. Maybe he's panicing (out of character) and trying to save his scum buddy Shadow, but in that case why sacrifice Eco's strong position instead of just having Shadow claim Jailer? Or just...start a different wagon?
It's just so clear that I have incredibly little to gain by throwing my position as highly town read just for the sake of lynching a Jailer (which is not hugely impactful, especially if both scum are still alive), compared to how scum Vezok has something to gain by drawing out the counterclaim before he dies. Once you factor actual behvaioural analysis into it, I don't understand how you can possibly think I'd be the scum in this situation.
Why are you trying to over-explain? Rodemy understood this. You're trying to push a lynch on me, because everybody is lurking and we won't be able to make another wagon.
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