Kind of, yes. I think Grape is capable of saying that as scum.
Also, I think I misunderstood Silver's post. I thought he meant closing in on Proph, as in, suspecting him for his post count (though now I think he meant in terms of posting a lot for a replacement). So I guess I was alone in thinking Proph's posts felt too catch-up-y. Giving an opinion on something outdated.
He did say he was going to iso vez, that should be interesting.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
Honestly, I just don’t want to RE to focus on me, she is good at catching scum imo, and by causing her to focus on me, I am doing exactly what I said I didn’t want to do in my earlier post…
is there a rule saying I cant quote this way? if not then I will quote as I plz... and if the parent quote is of enough importance, then why not take the time to find it, this thread isnt moving at a pace that makes it hard to find them at this moment..
Everyone
I as well would like your opinions on Cyan... his posts seem too out of touch with the game, and the ones he chooses to focus on are even worse
I have no read on that slot as of yet. please point out the posts that you think are bad. you haven't spoken directly about anyone yet, so I can't see what you're trying to say.
Vote: Lastwhisper
I wanna see how you respond to this
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
I just read Vezok's ISO, and that gave me a whole different look than what I thought I saw earlier.
His reads are not fleshed out, and while I remembered him asking good questions, that apparently was just 1 post. Apart from that he hasn't done much but fighting with Iso and calling Atog / Silver scum without really explaining why. He also has been townclearing some people.
your reads haven't been fleshed out either.
I still think Wuffles is scum. Leaning scum on Last and KJ, and have my eye on Shadow and Iso.
Townreading Terry and Kami, town leaning Proph, RE (because of Shinichi), Grape, Dota, tom and Silver.
Neutral on Cyan, Cantrip, Atog and DBS (who I think is town if Wuffles is scum, otherwise still lean scum)
you really rely on pre-flip association, don't you?
and I don't understand your scumread on Iso/Killjoy - mind giving a summary on how you come to the conclusion for those reads (mine seems to be based off the fact I made a mistake so derp ignore that)?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
My journal was beginning to look like a spiderweb, with the lines of possible motives and relationships, open questions and answered ones. The web of possibility intrigued me. It was time to voice my thoughts.
Vezok had, at one point, invited votes on himself. Scarce few followed on that. Why?
Let us suppose that vezok is innocent of any crimes. Then those who are in league against us would find this an easy opportunity to pursue him - if not to condemn him to hanging, at least to force him to reveal more information, perhaps showing why he is so confident. One could say that they would not wish to enter such a spotlight - but I paved the way by jumping in first. Seeing that, they could have used me as cover, along with any others who might have joined in. And I do not think that Mr. Vezok is so imposing as to scare them away completely.
Now let us suppose that vezok is guilty, and that this was a bluff. Then there would of course be no reason for those in league with him to call the bluff and call further attention to it; the best outcome, for them, would be for his challenge to stand and for the conversation to wash past like a tide.
Circumstantial evidence, perhaps, but I find the latter more likely than the former. My vote against him stands, and I invite others to consider what I have outlined here.
@DBS: If I notice two of my scumreads don’t make sense together, I’ll only push the top read yes, and will adjust my game view accordingly when there’s a flip.
I’ve talked about both Iso and KJ before. My history with both makes me cautious in those reads. Especially Iso I can’t reliably read.
KJ I think I recognise his town game, and this doesn’t seem it. It started with that question to me and Proph, and he hasn’t improved since.
It seems that the evil legends about what they have offered to men, and what they wish in connexion with the earth, are wholly the result of an ignorant misconception of allegorical speech—speech, of course, moulded by cultural backgrounds and thought-habits vastly different from anything we dream of. My own conjectures, I freely own, shot as widely past the mark as any of the guesses of illiterate farmers and savage Indians. What I had thought morbid and shameful and ignominious is in reality awesome and mind-expanding and even glorious—my previous estimate being merely a phase of man’s eternal tendency to hate and fear and shrink from the utterly different.
@KamikazeArchon
(I think your scumhunting is based on reactions, more than post consistency, from what I've seen so far.)
while I see your point, I'm not sure scum would jump on that easily if it would trap them into making stances. from my perspective, scum would avoid open gambits/challenges. this brings me to a conclusion that it wasn't such a townie move after all, if Vezok was town wanting to gambit, it would've been better to do it more 'mysteriously' (unsaid gambits are more effective).
@Rhand
I see. guess it's a playstyle thing. I usually keep associations to myself unless it is absolutely necessary.
hmm ok, didn't know you saw Iso that way in any game (or my memory is bad).
only seen scum!Killjoy while spectating Dark And Stormy Night and he seemed more "engaged" in discussion, while he was more of a lurker in Zero Escape - that's sorta why I wanna townread him. mind telling me what a scum!Killjoy would do (since you said you might be able to read him)?
@Mod
there's 2 Cyans in VC ....
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
something I'd like to put out there:
I prefer to see the wagons and counterwagons build up alongside. if only 1 train takes all the attention, I doubt any counterwagon will be informative. scum can also hide in the "we need a lynch" excuse.
(the differences I've noticed in plurality lynch on my site, and majority lynch on this site.
dogpiling on one wagon voids the information gained in counterwagons.)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
Rhand ISO
(forewarning - for some reason the ISO function isn't showing post #'s, so I'm generalising a little bit because it's too time consuming to go to each post just so that I have post #'s)
In the early game, I'm mind-melding HARD with Rhand. His opinions on the mechanics around the auctionhouse (and just as importantly, how we should be discussing them)
He correctly calls out grape and dota for discussing what they thought scum would do with the auction house - which is at best pointless WIFOM, and at worst could actually give scum ideas that they may otherwise not have thought of.
He quickly identifies Terry as town, which is definitely ends up being a mindmeld for me.
The first thing I saw that impacted the otherwise super-town read I had on him was when he posted after being prodded. He said that the potion should be kept until LyLo and then given via will to a scum?
Why wouldn't we demand that whoever got it, use it immediately? That way, the lack of vote doesn't matter and we have one person that we can feed items to and can move on after that.
His next post he calls DBS' reasoning "bad" and votes her without explaining why. minor flag.
Next post, he says that bussing people is fine as long as you agree with them.
Next post of interest, he unvotes DBS, saying she acted "like a real townie" after Grape's post - no further explanation provided as to why. minor flag.
Next post, he flops back onto the DBS wagon a second time. Though, to be fair, he was drunkposting, and he used the same line of attack he used against me saying that I was seeing him as less town but calling proph major town when he was also lurking. Fair I guess, but the flip-flopping is still kinda questionable.
Next post - explains why he voted DBS. +townie
Next post - suggests that whoever drinks the potion should either be given the tommie gun or murdered with it if they flip scum - good intention but bad reasoning in practice because there's no way that scum will ever drink the potion, and so an auction massclaim would be required to find and lynch the person refusing to drink the potion, and that would come with its own set of problems this early in the game as has been discussed at length.
Hmm, that made me think of an amusing possibility, though. With the rules for wills in this game, it might force scum to actually bestow their ***** to townies in order to avoid exposing their scumbuddies when they die and flip scum. Or, more likely, to give the town the chance to divvy up the items and coins themselves A very pleasing thought.
(BTW a reminder - please remember to fill in your wills!!! I've done mine!)
Next post: "Funny that both Iso and Shadow claim to be poor" - why is that funny? Surely with a game with mechanics like these it's possible that some characters start with less money than others; hell, we know that some have started with 2 whole golds. I'm sure that if they're lying, that will become obvious as the game progresses. Not sure why that comment was made.
Next few posts - Going after Shadow pretty hard for "asking questions for the sake of asking questions". Not sure if Shadow's behavior warrants this - I think this is why I was cooling toward Rhand after initially thinking he was pretty town, combined with the lurking (which I now accept his explanation for).
Aaand then he starts going hard for me when I mention that he's seemed less town recently than I started off reading him as.
I have not yet re-read proph. Will get to that as soon as I can.
What he’s doing is looking for reasons why I could’ve lost towncred and act like he had those reasons already, while in his reads post he only said it was because of lurking. Imo it’s all fake. He’s also skimming my posts more than reading them, or he should’ve seen that I took back the potion idea and that I was talking about sheeping, not bussing. And if he really read all my posts, he would also know why I think it’s funny that both Iso and Shadow claim to be poor.
I read them, you only from what I read said the potion idea shouldn't be done IN lylo my dude because that would lose us the game. That was the only part you clarified if I am not mistaken. It didn't find that part particularly scummy, just not a good idea for the way it would turn out in practice compared with forcing the drink immediately.
Stop putting words in my mouth. I didn't say it was only because of lurking, just that it was around the time that you were lurking that I first recalled starting to cool on you. I really don't like this response from you though. It's full of inaccuracies. Are you sure I'm the one skimming?
@Vezok - it was that my original impression of sending rhand from town read to neutral was correct at the time. After how his last part read though I'm starting to lean scum however.
Though vezok, you've been looking worse and worse, especially where you arbitrarily refused to answer a liver's well-written post.
Bah. I really should have checked what I actually wrote at the time before calling someone else out on inaccuracies. I was sure that lurking wasn't my only reason for cooling on rhand because at the end of the day while I hate lurking I don't vote people solely based on it (unless I truly have no other leads). At the time though I hadn't ISO'd Rhand and so I didn't have more than a feeling as to why I shouldn't give him a free pass for the rest of the game.
As o have inadvertently lied however I will in advance reveal that I have a cool role with two abilities - one which is good for catching people if they've lied and another power that I will only be able to use once or twice at most.
This game takes 9 to lynch. Even 5 votes isn't that close to finalizing a wagon but people are still reacting to 3-5 people wagons like a lynch is imminent.
@Rhand: I already answered that question RE: LW earlier. As for this game being a trainwreck, there are far too many people with bad reads to evoke confidence in me as to whether we'll be seeing a win.
-
@shadow: It just doesn't feel any different. Aside from maybe being more comfortable? But I expect scumLW's soul would have diarrhea of the mouth faucet. I really don't feel like doing a ZE dig to compare tone; I just don't have any issues with anything he's done or his tone, thus far.
(@LW: That should answer your question, too.)
-
@RE: Actually, I'm a bit skeptical about Cyan, myself, but it's hard to gauge him at the moment since he's done...literally nothing. I'm simply giving him the benefit of the doubt because I like the guy and because he'll be valuable to us later on if he is town. I hope.
-
@tom: Actually, I fully agree with the sentiment that townLast is the type of player that Cyan would mislynch.
-
@Proph: No? I think I've pretty clearly indicated that I've been townreading you for some time, now; there's nothing abrupt about it.
-
@Silver: It sounds like you very convincingly believe vezok is scum. So why aren't you voting for him?
Also, vezok's response to you should be the only reason anyone needs to be voting him at this point.
-
I guess I could see the arguments for shadow being scum based on not actually doing anything? But can we please lynch obvscum vezok, first?
@Everyone: Have you filled out your wills, yet?
Also, who was it that was asking the mod(s) about strikes in the auction thread? Was that shadow? What was the response you received?
-
Cyan has two things I wanted to respond to, so I quoted him.
I would, in fact, expect scum to have voted vezok by now if he's town...
Votecount?
Unless Iso is scum, and the scum team watched him not be able to get any meaningful traction on a Vezok wagon.
Actually that makes tons of sense to me. Unvote, Vote Iso
What mental gymnastics did you have to do to come to this conclusion? Or was this based on the fact that you already arbitrarily decided I was scum based on...what, again?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Bah. I really should have checked what I actually wrote at the time before calling someone else out on inaccuracies. I was sure that lurking wasn't my only reason for cooling on rhand because at the end of the day while I hate lurking I don't vote people solely based on it (unless I truly have no other leads). At the time though I hadn't ISO'd Rhand and so I didn't have more than a feeling as to why I shouldn't give him a free pass for the rest of the game.
As o have inadvertently lied however I will in advance reveal that I have a cool role with two abilities - one which is good for catching people if they've lied and another power that I will only be able to use once or twice at most.
@Cyan Sigh. Both of my abilities are eminently confirmable and one is totally, completely, 100% worthless as a scum ability.
This reads exactly like "I'm softing because I came under some pressure and it will totally make me look townie. I promise my abilities are confirmable, and one of them is even completely impossible to use in a way that benefits the scum team! But you'll have to take my word for it because I don't actually want to claim."
Eh. Unvote Kami obviously isn't one of the lynch targets today.
Also this is kind of, well, it's really gross actually. Like, the sentiment is almost townie in that Wuffles has been pushing Kami for a while and hasn't gained any traction there, but by unvoting it seems like Wuffles doesn't actually care that the vote was useless, in which case... why remove it from a scum read right now? Why not leave it on your scum read or join another wagon? I am voting Vezok, Iso.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
by unvoting it seems like Wuffles doesn't actually care that the vote was useless, in which case... why remove it from a scum read right now? Why not leave it on your scum read or join another wagon?.
This reads exactly like "I'm softing because I came under some pressure and it will totally make me look townie. I promise my abilities are confirmable, and one of them is even completely impossible to use in a way that benefits the scum team! But you'll have to take my word for it because I don't actually want to claim."
Yeah, no ***** I don't want to claim. I'm glad you noticed how obvious I was making that. One of my abilities is way less useful if claimed and the other will get claimed after I put it up for auction when I run out of capacity to use it. (it's an item ability).
I'm not re-routing until I have had a chance to do what I originally promised (to retread Proph) but when I do, at this stage it will probably be vezok.
sideway glances at:
Shadow, Tom, Kamikaze
(why is it so tempting to scumread them, and then again not to... >.>;)
reasons: Cyan - sheep votes Grape - unexplained scumread on Yurkin was retracted after replacement. scumread Killjoy/Last(?) have yet to see any new observations. Vezok - still think he's the winning side in the Vezok/Grape comparison. iirc he wanted Grape (and me) to drink the truth potion - would've liked to see Grape push it back at him, but that didn't happen = -1 for Grape. but behavior aside, his VC looks lazy. definitely needs sorting. Atog - inactive. besides talking about sheeping as if it was natural. the lack of focus on this slot is concerning. DoTA - inactive. lack of attention here is also concerning. Rhand - generous vote-hopping on who I would consider town (besides me). the votes were minimally explained. Killjoy - no votes so far? Proph - his VC looks....interesting(?)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
keeping a draft of it around (got the hang of it before Auctions)
what do you think of Cyan? he said the Vezok wagon was garbage.
-------------------------------
so I guess I'm still undecided between Vezok/Grape. behavior has Vezok looking better, but VC has Grape winning.
personally not liking Cyan, with his votes.
and Killjoy's ISO actually looks lacking.
so I guess... I'll go with stats for Vezok/Grape? Vezok.
Cyan is scummy on his own, and his speaking against the Vezok wagon (#950) makes s/s possible.
Killjoy I'd like to keep for town, but content production sure needs work.
missing scum could be in the low posters.
-------------------------------
Vote: Cyan
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
@Dawning: what exactly is the purpose of your vote tracking? Are you drawing any conclusions from it? Do you plan to use it to draw conclusions in the future?
@Iso: yeah, it was me talking about getting an auction strike, but I was specifically told not to do so intentionally; no concrete “this is what will happen” but implied that more that just a slap on the wrist would occur.
Also, I’m not really following your read on Last, because he’s not word vomiting everywhere you’re okay with him....even though his play in ZE could be exactly described as word vomiting everywhere?
Behavior has Vezok looking better? Care to explain what you like about his behavior? On the potion i had previously said I won't be drinking it so saw no need to reply to him in particular. Though I fail to see how my lack of a reply is a positive for him, except by comparison.
Also I've explained my Yurkin read. Just because you don't find it compelling doesn't mean it's unexplained. And I haven't dropped it (as in I'm still pinged by it) just been swayed by my stated recent observations on Silver's behavior.
How is the vote count a positive indicator for me? It should be a huge red flag that I'm as widrly mentioned as a suspect as I am but haven't been close to being waggoned. My theory is I'm being left alone as a CFD target by scum.
How is tracking votes like that insightful helpful? Usually when I look at VCs it's by wagons to see how it builds up. Tracking by individual misses a lot of that. Other parts of this post have shade, and that sounds like it does after three rewordings but it's actually pure curiosity.
Why is vote hopping only worrisome coming from Rhand? Shadow and I are right at his heels. Why memtion it for him and not us?
if you mean my read on Proph... all of his voteds received a decent amount of heat even without him being around except Cyan?. scum following his tracks, or he's leading them around. an attempt to read into it can go either way. it's just....interesting. might not be him as the wolf, but the wolves seem to be working around his votes - evident in how much attention 3 of the 4 players received.
@Dawning: what exactly is the purpose of your vote tracking? Are you drawing any conclusions from it? Do you plan to use it to draw conclusions in the future?
@Iso: yeah, it was me talking about getting an auction strike, but I was specifically told not to do so intentionally; no concrete “this is what will happen” but implied that more that just a slap on the wrist would occur.
Also, I’m not really following your read on Last, because he’s not word vomiting everywhere you’re okay with him....even though his play in ZE could be exactly described as word vomiting everywhere?
if things are still confusing I will resort to this. I rely more on gamestate than behavior, so concrete stats like votes will be easier for me to read. figured this was a good alternative to me overreacting. (I've been working on it~)
seen Last behave this 'off' once, and I tunneled on him. I'm kinda seeing the similarities here. (fun fact: I resorted to tracking votes to retain my sanity.) from what I've gathered, Last's votes still matches his town paranoia.
Behavior has Vezok looking better? Care to explain what you like about his behavior? On the potion i had previously said I won't be drinking it so saw no need to reply to him in particular. Though I fail to see how my lack of a reply is a positive for him, except by comparison.
Also I've explained my Yurkin read. Just because you don't find it compelling doesn't mean it's unexplained. And I haven't dropped it (as in I'm still pinged by it) just been swayed by my stated recent observations on Silver's behavior.
How is the vote count a positive indicator for me? It should be a huge red flag that I'm as widrly mentioned as a suspect as I am but haven't been close to being waggoned. My theory is I'm being left alone as a CFD target by scum.
How is tracking votes like that insightful helpful? Usually when I look at VCs it's by wagons to see how it builds up. Tracking by individual misses a lot of that. Other parts of this post have shade, and that sounds like it does after three rewordings but it's actually pure curiosity.
Why is vote hopping only worrisome coming from Rhand? Shadow and I are right at his heels. Why memtion it for him and not us?
1. Vezok was talking mechanics, but he backed off when I asked him to focus on behavior. if you look at my earlier read on his ISO, he was behaviorally better. his asking town to "vote him if curious" was also impressive at first sight. you tunnel, but he just observes. as for the Potion, you could've said something like "I accept the challenge, but only if you do the same if someone so happens to give it to you". instead, you pushed his dare away.
2. if you explained the Yurkin read without us having to second-guess it first, it would be better. it's the same principle with soft-claiming.
3. I'm ignoring mentions for the VC (focusing only on VC is more effective). from the way you voted, it looks more natural and flows with your reads.
4. it's useful to me. scum don't like to leave a vote on their buddies in case it suddenly piles up while they're away. common sense. anddd numbers are more reliable than people's behavior that changes at a whim.
5. I have a better read on the players that Rhand voted on (one of them being me) so yes, he gets the mention.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
Also, I think I misunderstood Silver's post. I thought he meant closing in on Proph, as in, suspecting him for his post count (though now I think he meant in terms of posting a lot for a replacement). So I guess I was alone in thinking Proph's posts felt too catch-up-y. Giving an opinion on something outdated.
He did say he was going to iso vez, that should be interesting.
but as you were asking...
I have no read on that slot as of yet. please point out the posts that you think are bad. you haven't spoken directly about anyone yet, so I can't see what you're trying to say.
Vote: Lastwhisper
I wanna see how you respond to this
Be grateful, always."
you really rely on pre-flip association, don't you?
and I don't understand your scumread on Iso/Killjoy - mind giving a summary on how you come to the conclusion for those reads (mine seems to be based off the fact I made a mistake so derp ignore that)?
Be grateful, always."
Vezok had, at one point, invited votes on himself. Scarce few followed on that. Why?
Let us suppose that vezok is innocent of any crimes. Then those who are in league against us would find this an easy opportunity to pursue him - if not to condemn him to hanging, at least to force him to reveal more information, perhaps showing why he is so confident. One could say that they would not wish to enter such a spotlight - but I paved the way by jumping in first. Seeing that, they could have used me as cover, along with any others who might have joined in. And I do not think that Mr. Vezok is so imposing as to scare them away completely.
Now let us suppose that vezok is guilty, and that this was a bluff. Then there would of course be no reason for those in league with him to call the bluff and call further attention to it; the best outcome, for them, would be for his challenge to stand and for the conversation to wash past like a tide.
Circumstantial evidence, perhaps, but I find the latter more likely than the former. My vote against him stands, and I invite others to consider what I have outlined here.
Votecount?
I’ve talked about both Iso and KJ before. My history with both makes me cautious in those reads. Especially Iso I can’t reliably read.
KJ I think I recognise his town game, and this doesn’t seem it. It started with that question to me and Proph, and he hasn’t improved since.
It seems that the evil legends about what they have offered to men, and what they wish in connexion with the earth, are wholly the result of an ignorant misconception of allegorical speech—speech, of course, moulded by cultural backgrounds and thought-habits vastly different from anything we dream of. My own conjectures, I freely own, shot as widely past the mark as any of the guesses of illiterate farmers and savage Indians. What I had thought morbid and shameful and ignominious is in reality awesome and mind-expanding and even glorious—my previous estimate being merely a phase of man’s eternal tendency to hate and fear and shrink from the utterly different.
killjoy (3) – Atogaholic, TheRealStinkyJoeTerry, vezokpiraka
Lastwhisper (2) - shadowlancerX,Cyan, dawningbluesky
Grapefruit21 (2) - DoTArchon, tomsloger
Cyan (1) - Lastwhisper
KamikazeArchon (1) - Wuffles_II
Prophylaxis (1) - Cantripmancer
Shadowlancerx (1) - Prophylaxis
Tomsloger (1) - Grapefruit21
Prophylaxis (1) - RE1031
Not voting: Killjoy
Day 1 ends on April 20th at 12:00 PM PST
With 19 players alive, it takes 10 votes to lynch.
Atogaholic has been prodded again, Currently discussing Cantrip's position with Osie.
Unless Iso is scum, and the scum team watched him not be able to get any meaningful traction on a Vezok wagon.
Actually that makes tons of sense to me. Unvote, Vote Iso
(I think your scumhunting is based on reactions, more than post consistency, from what I've seen so far.)
while I see your point, I'm not sure scum would jump on that easily if it would trap them into making stances. from my perspective, scum would avoid open gambits/challenges. this brings me to a conclusion that it wasn't such a townie move after all, if Vezok was town wanting to gambit, it would've been better to do it more 'mysteriously' (unsaid gambits are more effective).
@Rhand
I see. guess it's a playstyle thing. I usually keep associations to myself unless it is absolutely necessary.
hmm ok, didn't know you saw Iso that way in any game (or my memory is bad).
only seen scum!Killjoy while spectating Dark And Stormy Night and he seemed more "engaged" in discussion, while he was more of a lurker in Zero Escape - that's sorta why I wanna townread him. mind telling me what a scum!Killjoy would do (since you said you might be able to read him)?
@Mod
there's 2 Cyans in VC ....
Be grateful, always."
Ahh but you think I'm scum and I've been voting Vezok most of the day.
Vote: Vezok
I prefer to see the wagons and counterwagons build up alongside. if only 1 train takes all the attention, I doubt any counterwagon will be informative. scum can also hide in the "we need a lynch" excuse.
(the differences I've noticed in plurality lynch on my site, and majority lynch on this site.
dogpiling on one wagon voids the information gained in counterwagons.)
Be grateful, always."
(forewarning - for some reason the ISO function isn't showing post #'s, so I'm generalising a little bit because it's too time consuming to go to each post just so that I have post #'s)
In the early game, I'm mind-melding HARD with Rhand. His opinions on the mechanics around the auctionhouse (and just as importantly, how we should be discussing them)
He correctly calls out grape and dota for discussing what they thought scum would do with the auction house - which is at best pointless WIFOM, and at worst could actually give scum ideas that they may otherwise not have thought of.
He quickly identifies Terry as town, which is definitely ends up being a mindmeld for me.
The first thing I saw that impacted the otherwise super-town read I had on him was when he posted after being prodded. He said that the potion should be kept until LyLo and then given via will to a scum?
Why wouldn't we demand that whoever got it, use it immediately? That way, the lack of vote doesn't matter and we have one person that we can feed items to and can move on after that.
His next post he calls DBS' reasoning "bad" and votes her without explaining why. minor flag.
Next post, he says that bussing people is fine as long as you agree with them.
Next post of interest, he unvotes DBS, saying she acted "like a real townie" after Grape's post - no further explanation provided as to why. minor flag.
Next post, he flops back onto the DBS wagon a second time. Though, to be fair, he was drunkposting, and he used the same line of attack he used against me saying that I was seeing him as less town but calling proph major town when he was also lurking. Fair I guess, but the flip-flopping is still kinda questionable.
Next post - explains why he voted DBS. +townie
Next post - suggests that whoever drinks the potion should either be given the tommie gun or murdered with it if they flip scum - good intention but bad reasoning in practice because there's no way that scum will ever drink the potion, and so an auction massclaim would be required to find and lynch the person refusing to drink the potion, and that would come with its own set of problems this early in the game as has been discussed at length.
Hmm, that made me think of an amusing possibility, though. With the rules for wills in this game, it might force scum to actually bestow their ***** to townies in order to avoid exposing their scumbuddies when they die and flip scum. Or, more likely, to give the town the chance to divvy up the items and coins themselves A very pleasing thought.
(BTW a reminder - please remember to fill in your wills!!! I've done mine!)
Next post: "Funny that both Iso and Shadow claim to be poor" - why is that funny? Surely with a game with mechanics like these it's possible that some characters start with less money than others; hell, we know that some have started with 2 whole golds. I'm sure that if they're lying, that will become obvious as the game progresses. Not sure why that comment was made.
Next few posts - Going after Shadow pretty hard for "asking questions for the sake of asking questions". Not sure if Shadow's behavior warrants this - I think this is why I was cooling toward Rhand after initially thinking he was pretty town, combined with the lurking (which I now accept his explanation for).
Aaand then he starts going hard for me when I mention that he's seemed less town recently than I started off reading him as.
I have not yet re-read proph. Will get to that as soon as I can.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
Stop putting words in my mouth. I didn't say it was only because of lurking, just that it was around the time that you were lurking that I first recalled starting to cool on you. I really don't like this response from you though. It's full of inaccuracies. Are you sure I'm the one skimming?
@Vezok - it was that my original impression of sending rhand from town read to neutral was correct at the time. After how his last part read though I'm starting to lean scum however.
Though vezok, you've been looking worse and worse, especially where you arbitrarily refused to answer a liver's well-written post.
Who’s putting words in whose mouth?
vote Wuffles
Let’s lynch lying scum
As o have inadvertently lied however I will in advance reveal that I have a cool role with two abilities - one which is good for catching people if they've lied and another power that I will only be able to use once or twice at most.
There are much better ways to do that then soft claiming though.
I have no idea what you claimed/soft-claimed/whatever, but this answer sounds comically fake.
Unvote, Vote Wuffles
We got like 5 days left?
Wuffles (3) - rhand, tom, cyan
killjoy (3) – togs, Joe, vezok
Last (2) - shadow, dawning
Proph (2) - cantrip, RE1031
Grape (1) - DoTA
Cyan (1) - Last
Kami (1) - Wuffles
Shadow (1) - Proph
Not voting: Killjoy
We still have consolidating to do, but everyone currently receiving multiple votes is voting solo so that should happen
How is it garbage? I know you're scum reading Iso but that is one person on it.
-
@shadow: It just doesn't feel any different. Aside from maybe being more comfortable? But I expect scumLW's soul would have diarrhea of the mouth faucet. I really don't feel like doing a ZE dig to compare tone; I just don't have any issues with anything he's done or his tone, thus far.
(@LW: That should answer your question, too.)
-
@RE: Actually, I'm a bit skeptical about Cyan, myself, but it's hard to gauge him at the moment since he's done...literally nothing. I'm simply giving him the benefit of the doubt because I like the guy and because he'll be valuable to us later on if he is town. I hope.
-
@tom: Actually, I fully agree with the sentiment that townLast is the type of player that Cyan would mislynch.
-
@Proph: No? I think I've pretty clearly indicated that I've been townreading you for some time, now; there's nothing abrupt about it.
-
@Silver: It sounds like you very convincingly believe vezok is scum. So why aren't you voting for him?
Also, vezok's response to you should be the only reason anyone needs to be voting him at this point.
-
I guess I could see the arguments for shadow being scum based on not actually doing anything? But can we please lynch obvscum vezok, first?
@Everyone: Have you filled out your wills, yet?
Also, who was it that was asking the mod(s) about strikes in the auction thread? Was that shadow? What was the response you received?
-
Cyan has two things I wanted to respond to, so I quoted him.
What mental gymnastics did you have to do to come to this conclusion? Or was this based on the fact that you already arbitrarily decided I was scum based on...what, again?
no u
Also, I was going to fix your smiley problem but you got it fixed.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
This reads exactly like "I'm softing because I came under some pressure and it will totally make me look townie. I promise my abilities are confirmable, and one of them is even completely impossible to use in a way that benefits the scum team! But you'll have to take my word for it because I don't actually want to claim."
Also this is kind of, well, it's really gross actually. Like, the sentiment is almost townie in that Wuffles has been pushing Kami for a while and hasn't gained any traction there, but by unvoting it seems like Wuffles doesn't actually care that the vote was useless, in which case... why remove it from a scum read right now? Why not leave it on your scum read or join another wagon?
I am voting Vezok, Iso.
Kind of wish I had two votes, though.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Yeah think that's either NAI or slightly townie for him
Yeah, no ***** I don't want to claim. I'm glad you noticed how obvious I was making that. One of my abilities is way less useful if claimed and the other will get claimed after I put it up for auction when I run out of capacity to use it. (it's an item ability).
I'm not re-routing until I have had a chance to do what I originally promised (to retread Proph) but when I do, at this stage it will probably be vezok.
1. Kamikaze (3): Cyan >> Dawn >> Vezok
2.
ShinichiRE (3): Grape >> Cyan >> Proph3. Iso (1): Vezok
4. Shadow (8): Kamikaze >> Grape >> unvote >> Tom >> Atog >> Last >> Tom >> Last
5. Last (5): Wuffles >> Vezok >> Cyan >> Rhand >> Cyan
6. Terry (3): Grape >> unvote >> Killjoy
7.
VaimesCantrip (1): Proph8. Killjoy (0): -
9. Proph (4): Atog >> Cyan >> Silver >> Shadow
10. Cyan (5): Atog >> Iso >> Last >> Iso >> Wuffles
11. Dawn (8): Tom >> Cantrip >> Shadow >> Atog >> Shadow >> Rhand >> Wuffles >> Last
12. Grape (7): Vezok >> Tom >> Silver >> Killjoy >> Vezok >> Tom >> Vezok
13. Atog (2): Cantrip >> Killjoy
14. DoTA (2): Kamikaze >> Grape
15.
GwenWuffles (4): Last >> Cyan >> Kamikaze >> unvote16.
DisplayNameTom (6): Silver >> Dawn >> Silver >> Wuffles >> Grape >> Wuffles17.
YurkinSilver (2): Tom >> unvote18. Vezok (4): Iso >> Atog >> Atog >> Killjoy
19. Rhand (9): Proph >> Last >> Shadow >> Dawn >> unvote >> Dawn >> Wuffles >> Vezok >> Wuffles
Proph
Shadow
Silver
Tom [missing Cyan]
-----------------
suspects:
strong - Cyan, Grape
weak - Vezok, Atog, DoTA
sorta or null - Rhand, Killjoy, Proph
sideway glances at:
Shadow, Tom, Kamikaze
(why is it so tempting to scumread them, and then again not to... >.>;)
reasons:
Cyan - sheep votes
Grape - unexplained scumread on Yurkin was retracted after replacement. scumread Killjoy/Last(?) have yet to see any new observations.
Vezok - still think he's the winning side in the Vezok/Grape comparison. iirc he wanted Grape (and me) to drink the truth potion - would've liked to see Grape push it back at him, but that didn't happen = -1 for Grape. but behavior aside, his VC looks lazy. definitely needs sorting.
Atog - inactive. besides talking about sheeping as if it was natural. the lack of focus on this slot is concerning.
DoTA - inactive. lack of attention here is also concerning.
Rhand - generous vote-hopping on who I would consider town (besides me). the votes were minimally explained.
Killjoy - no votes so far?
Proph - his VC looks....interesting(?)
Be grateful, always."
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
what do you think of Cyan? he said the Vezok wagon was garbage.
-------------------------------
so I guess I'm still undecided between Vezok/Grape. behavior has Vezok looking better, but VC has Grape winning.
personally not liking Cyan, with his votes.
and Killjoy's ISO actually looks lacking.
so I guess... I'll go with stats for Vezok/Grape? Vezok.
Cyan is scummy on his own, and his speaking against the Vezok wagon (#950) makes s/s possible.
Killjoy I'd like to keep for town, but content production sure needs work.
missing scum could be in the low posters.
-------------------------------
Vote: Cyan
Be grateful, always."
@Iso: yeah, it was me talking about getting an auction strike, but I was specifically told not to do so intentionally; no concrete “this is what will happen” but implied that more that just a slap on the wrist would occur.
Also, I’m not really following your read on Last, because he’s not word vomiting everywhere you’re okay with him....even though his play in ZE could be exactly described as word vomiting everywhere?
Also I've explained my Yurkin read. Just because you don't find it compelling doesn't mean it's unexplained. And I haven't dropped it (as in I'm still pinged by it) just been swayed by my stated recent observations on Silver's behavior.
How is the vote count a positive indicator for me? It should be a huge red flag that I'm as widrly mentioned as a suspect as I am but haven't been close to being waggoned. My theory is I'm being left alone as a CFD target by scum.
How is tracking votes like that insightful helpful? Usually when I look at VCs it's by wagons to see how it builds up. Tracking by individual misses a lot of that. Other parts of this post have shade, and that sounds like it does after three rewordings but it's actually pure curiosity.
Why is vote hopping only worrisome coming from Rhand? Shadow and I are right at his heels. Why memtion it for him and not us?
except Cyan?. scum following his tracks, or he's leading them around. an attempt to read into it can go either way. it's just....interesting. might not be him as the wolf, but the wolves seem to be working around his votes - evident in how much attention 3 of the 4 players received.if things are still confusing I will resort to this. I rely more on gamestate than behavior, so concrete stats like votes will be easier for me to read. figured this was a good alternative to me overreacting. (I've been working on it~)
seen Last behave this 'off' once, and I tunneled on him. I'm kinda seeing the similarities here. (fun fact: I resorted to tracking votes to retain my sanity.) from what I've gathered, Last's votes still matches his town paranoia.
1. Vezok was talking mechanics, but he backed off when I asked him to focus on behavior. if you look at my earlier read on his ISO, he was behaviorally better. his asking town to "vote him if curious" was also impressive at first sight. you tunnel, but he just observes. as for the Potion, you could've said something like "I accept the challenge, but only if you do the same if someone so happens to give it to you". instead, you pushed his dare away.
2. if you explained the Yurkin read without us having to second-guess it first, it would be better. it's the same principle with soft-claiming.
3. I'm ignoring mentions for the VC (focusing only on VC is more effective). from the way you voted, it looks more natural and flows with your reads.
4. it's useful to me. scum don't like to leave a vote on their buddies in case it suddenly piles up while they're away. common sense. anddd numbers are more reliable than people's behavior that changes at a whim.
5. I have a better read on the players that Rhand voted on (one of them being me) so yes, he gets the mention.
Be grateful, always."