I kinda want people to start focusing on another wagons and as long as the wagon on me exists that seems like a slim chance. I'm also annoyed that a few people have expressed concerns with me, but haven't voted. I want to get a wagon going in order to perform analysis on it later.
Rhand - Curious how quickly you jumped to me being scum, just because I had cooled on you due to your sporadic posting making it harder for me to read you as explicitly town - you sure got real defensive real quick. Remember that you quoting meta or typical posting patterns/frequency means nothing to me my dude it's literally been seven years,since I was here. I'm not all up in the meta know like the hip kids seem to be.
I'm not sure if that makes you over-anxious town or paranoid scum, though, but I'll be keeping my eye on you after this.
I already said I Thought Vezok was town, why would I want to press him to claim?
Quote from lastwhisper »
Silver
@Lastwhisper: This reminds you of a post you made in Zero Escape? In what way? Does that make you think he's town?
Well my post was a long the lines of, "I'm pretty sure I wont get lynched today", and I was town
but this, Vote me and find out if you are that curious. is a threat I dont like... and a town shouldnt be ok with asking for votes...
This reaction seems pretty scummy though honestly.
not really a reaction, dont think vezok is scum... but im pretty tired of players doing scummy things for the sake of their own personal strategies...
I was stating exactly what I said, "someone can do something scummy, and still be town, but that doesnt mean the scummy thing isnt any less scummy" and I dont even scum read him, or plan to push him
Tom
Town: Last/iso/proph/joe
I mean if its any consulation, last game, tom scum read me into oblivion and he was scum, so maybe hes town, despite the contradiction?? but again, if I make a contradiction in, I just admit fault... so meh
yes that's my town core
And do you think there's a contradiction (there isnt) or just saw them use the word?
yes, I actually read the posts they were talking about, and the answer u made in the above post, is exactly how I feel on the matter
Tom oh cool wuffles is making scummy posts now too
lol xD... his last few sentences about being away and not knowing meta, was I guess unnecessary?
Tbh, I find it townie, and while my first impression of vez was on the scum side, after rereading him, it wasn't all bad. If vez is scum, he's pulling a stunt that will eventually get him lynched, which seems like a bad move to make on day 1.
He'll have to explain it eventually. I'm not gonna bother opening that bag because someone else will.
would ur opinion be any different if he wasnt scum read before he said that? saying you think someone is still townie, and finding that something they say is totally townie... is something completely different...
Like, someone could self vote... ya maybe u still believe they are town... but that doesnt make that self vote less scummy he's pulling a stunt that will eventually get him lynched agree, but imo thats just wine, its not the most dangerous thing to do, expecially if he has a decent explanation later on for why he did it
The only decent explanation there is is something will confirm him as town. I highly doubt scum would be able to pull up a decent explanation regardless of when they decide to pull it out.
It's not entirely wine, because day 1 stunts are rare. If he's scum, he's basically given up if he has to resort to this. And rather, if scum had a decent explanation, I don't see why they would hold off on claiming since that would just draw more attention to them. The less pressure you are under when you claim, the more likely it is your claim will be believed.
vez had 3 votes. It takes 10 votes to lynch someone. If he's scum, he'd want to push attention off of him, not draw it, which is only what a softclaim (if you could call it that) would do.
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When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
I already said I Thought Vezok was town, why would I want to press him to claim?
I mean, I think magic bags are a huge red flag. Most of the time. I was wondering if it had changed your read or if you had a policy of keeping them closed/opening them.
ALSO!
Upon the conclusion of me rereading this whole thread, Killjoy seemed super suspicious. Yet he isn't being talked about at all. In fact several people recently posted TS lists and didn't expand on KJ at all.
Rhand? Proph? Kami? DOTA? Give me some feedback on Killjoy.
In light of this question, I've reviewed his contributions.
I find them lacking - no strong tests, and I mislike how much time he spends preemptively explaining his course. A further concern is that it seems fully half of his comments are regarding his own defense - and casting aspersions against specifically of those who suspect him.
This is enough for me to consider him among the less trustworthy of us, but not enough for me to wish to pursue him above all others right now.
ALSO!
Upon the conclusion of me rereading this whole thread, Killjoy seemed super suspicious. Yet he isn't being talked about at all. In fact several people recently posted TS lists and didn't expand on KJ at all.
Rhand? Proph? Kami? DOTA? Give me some feedback on Killjoy.
In light of this question, I've reviewed his contributions.
I find them lacking - no strong tests, and I mislike how much time he spends preemptively explaining his course. A further concern is that it seems fully half of his comments are regarding his own defense - and casting aspersions against specifically of those who suspect him.
This is enough for me to consider him among the less trustworthy of us, but not enough for me to wish to pursue him above all others right now.
So yes, this is one of the stupidest things I've ever responded to and I'm not even sure why I am
Because you're scum with shadow so you feel obligated to?
so u think that interaction was W/W? Why?
RE I highly doubt scum would be able to pull up a decent explanation regardless of when they decide to pull it out. doubt is all you need for it to be a possibility I don't see why they would hold off on claiming since that would just draw more attention to them seriously?
and I agree that Vez is probably town... I was just trying to say that, Scummy things are always scummy, but that doesnt mean the person doing them isnt town...
RE I highly doubt scum would be able to pull up a decent explanation regardless of when they decide to pull it out. doubt is all you need for it to be a possibility I don't see why they would hold off on claiming since that would just draw more attention to them seriously?
and I agree that Vez is probably town... I was just trying to say that, Scummy things are always scummy, but that doesnt mean the person doing them isnt town...
If you dismiss everything as wine, you won't get anywhere. But you see it as NAI, okay.
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When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
good morning
I'm still over talking about this, but no my top reason for townreading him is not because he's sitting back. It's the interactions with shin I already talked about and with dawn that I don't think I did which i shorthanded as good vibes
But the secondary reason is, as I said, the way he's sitting back. Most importantly the naturalness of what he thinks is important
And literally, even if it was a contradiction it wouldn't matter because the original statement was, iirc, after me reading like 100 posts and things have changed. And, as mentioned, contradictions aren't even scummy in the first place...
So yes, this is one of the stupidest things I've ever responded to and I'm not even sure why I am
Unvote
That’s really all I wanted, was an explanation. I don’t think being contradictory is inherently scummy, I was frustrated that you wouldn’t address it.
This is a game all about what we say; you’re not above justifying yourself just because you’re Tom, I expect to be able to scrutinize someone’s posts and have them give depth and clarity to them. You said two things that were seemingly at odds with each other, now you’ve clarified, which is all I wanted in the first place.
Still think you’re wrong to rate last that high.
Vote Last
Quote from Last »
Shadow
In the meantime
vote Last
Top three scum reads and why please.
I got a better question... if I dont give you my top 3 scum reads, what does that mean to you?
It means that you’re being purposely obtuse. Still want an answer. Also, hilariously I think your syntax of copying and bolding might mean that you’re technically voting yourself. (I don’t actually think it would be counted, but you might be aware of that)
I agree contradictions aren't inherently scummy. And your explanation makes sense, but you had to go and contradict yourself again in finally making sense.
Also the fact that you've actually engaged with me and shadow on this is worrying. You brush so many things off and ignore them and I'm midly shocked at how defensive you have been over this.
As for why this is scummy: it's a mind state slip. At first you wanted to appease me without sorting Wisp, but now you forgot that read and wanted to town read wisp and used almost the same reasoning.
There were other things I wanted to comment on Wisp's big post (not a great look) wuffles v rhand (thumbs up for rhand down for wuffles) and Vezok (thumbs up despite it still leaving him a scum read, like the confidence hate the desire to claim) but I have no time.
I agree contradictions aren't inherently scummy. And your explanation makes sense, but you had to go and contradict yourself again in finally making sense.
Also the fact that you've actually engaged with me and shadow on this is worrying. You brush so many things off and ignore them and I'm midly shocked at how defensive you have been over this.
As for why this is scummy: it's a mind state slip. At first you wanted to appease me without sorting Wisp, but now you forgot that read and wanted to town read wisp and used almost the same reasoning.
There were other things I wanted to comment on Wisp's big post (not a great look) wuffles v rhand (thumbs up for rhand down for wuffles) and Vezok (thumbs up despite it still leaving him a scum read, like the confidence hate the desire to claim) but I have no time.
@DBS: can you give me your reads on lastwhisper and Iso?
town and town.
Last is fairly easy to read, here's an idea.
as for Iso, I've seen him enough as a player in ZE, about 4 phases(?), so I'm confident in the townread on him. also looked up his past games, and he's more 'wet noodle', as Tom calls it, when he's scum. don't see noodle!Iso here.
scum = Shadow/Grape/Wuffles? there should be a lurker in the mix, maybe Cyan who's in my blind spot the entire game, or Rhand for that 'impossible' read.
I'm still feeling like Vezok is town, for reasons I've stated before, and that Grape will be scum if we ever compare those 2 in mechanics talk. Kamikaze also town, for that post I've addressed - I actually hope he bets a video of shoe-eating if he wants to complain about my self-meta talk, because there's witnesses for it and all that. har har
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
not sure what to make of Rhand switching from me to Wuffles - looks like excusing himself from a bad vote, which could come from town or scum. but Wuffles hasn't made himself look any better either.
#759 looks....ok? reads at the bottom of the list are scumreading more for inactivity than actual substance. the "leaning scum on Grapefruit" is what confuses me about whether it's a town or scum post. I personally like the scumread on Grapes, but not the shade/read on lurking/inactivity.
Vote: Wuffles_II
I guess this will sort out my questions either way.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
Actually, it's probably one of the realest posts I've seen tom make in a game. That doesn't make him town necessarily, but it's almost certainly really how he feels about the situation.
I'm tentatively willing to say they're not w/w because of it, with the caveat that I have a truly terrible track record at catching scum!tom and scum!shadow.
But I don't think either of them are scum at the moment. I'd have to lynch through a sizeable chunk of my PoE before I even got to tom and shadow's in my light town leans.
I don't really have a desire to claim. That's why I'm not doing at 3 votes on my wagon and wanted to see the wagon bigger before doing it.
@Silver : Why are you asking that question to specifically those 5 people?
Because I'm having a hard time reading them and wanted their opinions on the record for when/if something happens/it becomes important.
It's kind of related to that post that I'm still not talking about, mostly because I'm not totally convinced that the wagon is stalled and I think we should, at minimum, open the magic bag and then decide if we want to lynch you or someone else.
Mafia theory:
If you allow a wagon to dissolve just because someone softs power, you give free reign to future scum teams who will just soft power under pressure and expect town to back off because they're afraid of lynching or outing the doctor/vig/whatever. Problem is, even if the wagon is on a town power role, scum will know they're a good night kill target regardless. So if you're town, you're basically giving free info to the scum team while sticking us in the uncomfortable position of not knowing what your claim actually is so we can evaluate it, have it open to counter claims, etcetera.
That said... Regardless of your alignment, I can certainly respect not wanting to claim until you're at L-2. I just don't think you should have dropped the magic bag in the first place.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
So, Grape. I am continuing to stare at your argument and it still doesn't make much sense.
So, I claim that I believe Last is town due to his tone being casual and relaxed or whatever. I'm gonna ignore the part of my argument that he was being sincere since you apparently missed it. So I say that Last has qualities that you disagree with... So, therefore, I'm scum. I don't understand what lying about effectively Last's personality (which is outwardly apparent and visible to everyone) gains me.
I know you said that you missed the part where I was talking about sincerity. That's not my issue. My issue is how you saw that I had an opinion you disagreed with and immediately jumped to me being scum for it. Can you please explain how this makes sense to you?
Sidenote to everyone else: This isn't the post I wanted to make today. I wanted to do something more substantial. That ended up not happening. I'm going to try to do it after work tomorrow. If I can't, I'll figure something out. I haven't forgot about this game.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Shadow In the meantime
vote Last
Top three scum reads and why please.
I got a better question... if I dont give you my top 3 scum reads, what does that mean to you?
and I am voting Rhand, because I dont particularly like how focuses soley on people who vote him, or when he deems that someone's "votes are bad"...
This is very confrontational for now apparent reason. Why are so dismissive towards this question?
Also your read on Rhand is not great. First off it's objectively not true, he's touched on many things that aren't votes on him or "bad votes". Second that's kind of key to how one plays the game. You challenge votes you think are bad. That's the whole point of forcing people to vote, and holding them accountable for why they made their votes. It's the main building block of mafia. I know you get defensive when anyone says anything negative about DBS (you did it in ZE as well) but just because he called her bad vote ba doesn't mean it's all he's done.
Re From my meta records, relaxed last is not indicative of town!last. Like, at all.
Those who are townreading last, which posts in particular give you that vibe?
(Sorry if it's been done, I forgot.)
TBH, idk why anyone would want to town read a lurker, and even if they were gunna use meta, particularly the people from MTGS, then this game is nothing like my ZE game... but I also think u are wrong by focusing on my "meta", cause you wont find anything there, I mean if you think im scum for my tone or how I'm playing this game, then so be it...
This reply is wildly unrelated to the quote and very defensive. Just not even in the same ballpark. RE is talking about you being relaxed isn't a town tell and you go off on lurkers? What?
I wasn't reading properly, but I still want to know which posts gave you that vibe. The past 3 games I've played with last he's tunneled, he's stood out, and "sitting back and commenting" doesn't seem like the main thing he'd be known for in a game as town.
When it comes to how active I am, neither meta nor alignment play any indication. The only reason I was particularity super tunnely last game was because, in a game with so much wine (more wine than usual for a mafia game), people were using wine to clear people, and it was the most frustrating thing...
Same thing. RE really doesn't say anything about your activity level. The style of your activity yes, but not even close to calling you a lurker. Also self meta...
Tom Is the contradiction that I don't think his new playstyle is inherently towny therefore I can't think he's playing towny?
Also natural and relaxed aren't even close to the same thing in mafia terms and aren't being used to describe the same thing anyway
And frankly I don't see how it would be scummy even if it was a contradiction
Town: Last/iso/proph/joe
I mean if its any consulation, last game, tom scum read me into oblivion and he was scum, so maybe hes town, despite the contradiction?? but again, if I make a contradiction in, I just admit fault... so meh
This is fine. A bit all over the place but fine.
Rhand I think Wuffles is scum.
@Wuffles: why do I go from town to no read for lurking but Proph remains your biggest town read?
IMO, there is no reason to town read you, and it irks me that u just want to focus on people that scum read you...
I think you guys refer to it as "shade"?
[/quote]
That's not shade. Shade is more when you dismiss someone without commiting to a read. For example saying something like "Wisp's vote is bad and he should feel bad" is a shade. If Rhand hadn't followed through with a vote his calling DBS' vote bad would have been shade.
That said why on earth did you pull this quote out to talk about your ead on Rhand? Did you miss the context where wuffles said she liked Rhand early but dinged him for lurking recently? Because that's a very different read to the one you made. And Wuffles liked Proph early but left him as a town read despite commenting on Proph lurking. That difference needs to be explained. And you chainsawing in and saying "Rhand doesn't deserve a town read at all, period" makes it harder to hold wuffles to a read and force them to explain why Rhand dropped for lurking but Proph didn't.
My observations from today (maddeningly being unable to post, only read on my work PC because twitch is blocked and we CANT LOG INTO MTGS ANYMORE WITHOUT IT
Post 761 - Yeah, Tom, but that's a lot more good posts than a lot of people this game tho
Post 764 @ Grapefruit - You praised me, then said that my post after that was good, then agreed with a third post. Not sure if you just legitimately think I'm #goodposting or if you're cuddling up.
Lurking is...the sign of either a lazy townie (and lazy townies are basically worthless) or of a cautious scum that doesn't want to incriminate themselves. So I definitely look down on lurkers either way, and yes, that behaviour is often scummy.
I've already explained this a few time - while it's possible that Joe's role could appear on a scum, I'd honestly be glad if it did because that would be a lot less powerful than the kind of scum roles I would expect in a game like this. And the way he revealed it to us under no duress basically allows us to now use it for the good of the town. Getting a few townie points by revealing it as a scum gambit just doesn't feel worth it in comparison to keeping it secret if Joe were scum, because now he has to use it for the town or put himself in a super awkward position. This is why I think Joe is super-town.
Post 786 @ Rhand - I already said I was going to ISO Proph to back up why he feels so town to me in #759. He hasn't been the most active but when he does post I recall getting major town vibes. I'm going to ISO you as well to see if my differing feels toward the two of you are justified.
Post 794 @ Whisp - Yeah, the OMGUS is a bit puzzling to be sure, but to clarify - I didn't scum read him and please don't put words in my mouth - his latest behavior just cooled my initial reactions of him being town a bit. I'll look at this when I ISO him to see if that read is justified.
Post 816 @ Rhand - Yeah, I'm going to ISO you and proph to see if my original opinion is justified.
Post 820 @ Tom - :eyeroll:
Post 822 @ Wisp - Eh, on second thought, that's a fair callout. Maybe I jumped the gun a little there, since work is a valid reason to not post as much. I just hate self-meta justifications for bad behavior.
Post 833 @ Shadow - I like the way you throw shade at tom here, because his style can indeed be a bit maddening.
Post 842 @ Vezok - man you're such a tease. "I'm not going to be lynched." "heh, vote me and see" "Vote me so I can see who joins my wagon" "nah, I don't wanna claim."
TL;DR Gonna Iso Proph/Rhand and see just what it was that caused me to feel differing vibes between them despite their similar on-again-off-again styles this game, also replied to several other people.
Rhand - Curious how quickly you jumped to me being scum, just because I had cooled on you due to your sporadic posting making it harder for me to read you as explicitly town - you sure got real defensive real quick. Remember that you quoting meta or typical posting patterns/frequency means nothing to me my dude it's literally been seven years,since I was here. I'm not all up in the meta know like the hip kids seem to be.
I'm not sure if that makes you over-anxious town or paranoid scum, though, but I'll be keeping my eye on you after this.
You’re completely avoiding my point. What I am accusing you of is double standards. You call Proph your strongest town read while saying I lost town credit for lurking (nothing else). Proph is lurking just as much as me.
What I think you are doing is trying to blend in by having the same reads as most of us have. The fact it is me doesn’t matter at all. I would’ve made the same observation if you were talking about someone else.
That probably means me vs DBS is a town vs town fight if you are indeed scum.
vote: Wuffles
@lastwhisper: do you really believe pushing someone because their vote is bad is not good? explain why.
@Terry: I do have KJ in my top scum reads, but he’s not posting enough to react to. I would be ok with lynching him toDay.
I really like this post by Rhand. In multiple ways. First the content is good. His point towards wuffles is strong and his changing his DBS read based on it is a townie look. Second I like the tone a lot.
The wording towards wisp is fighting incredulity and I can see it coming from town Rhand easily.
Same with the opening towards Wuffles.
Assorted Vezok thoughts: his confidence is a good look. I don't remember him being ever that publicly confident in pirates or prison block. That said the apperance wanting to claim and egging on a wagon is not a good look. Silver went into why softing is bad already and I'll /barn him there. It's another mixed bag but I think the confidence is the most AI part of it. Just not enough to outweigh the Iso push.
@KJ sure so why I jumped to scum reading you is because the reasoning was delayed and I disagreed with it. If your original post had included it I wouldn't think it was scummy. But because it was a later justification and I felt it was brazenly untrue that it made you scum.
That was magnified by the fact that most of the posts that could be described using the tone you used happened after your post where you expressed the town read. I thought his earliest posts were his most manic. Now granted that could easily be read as sincere.
Anyway as you said ne misunderstanding your wording isn't your problem. It's mine. And I've moved you back to my null pile. I'm still slightly pinged by your early town read on Wisp but nothing like I was earlier.
@wuffles so I get what you're saying with Terry and end up in the same place. Just with slightly different reasoning. I think his role is more benefical for scum than town but I think the way he played it is very townie.
On lurkers I get what you're saying but with phases this long I think small pockets of inactivity are 100% NAI. If it becomes a patter and happens opportunistically then I agree it's scummy. Not dosagreeing on it being unhelpful, just on it being meaningful.
As for praising you I thought I praised one post (I may be misremembering) and yeah I thought it was good posting.
My observations from today (maddeningly being unable to post, only read on my work PC because twitch is blocked and we CANT LOG INTO MTGS ANYMORE WITHOUT IT
I really like this post by Rhand. In multiple ways. First the content is good. His point towards wuffles is strong and his changing his DBS read based on it is a townie look. Second I like the tone a lot.
welp. when you end up applauding the winning end of the debacle.
what's your read on Wuffles?
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
I don't have a strong read on wuffles. I was leaning town before this latest exchange. Then I was leaning scum. Going to wait and see where wuffles lands after reevaluating before going much deeper than that.
@Iso: Can you dive into why votes on Last are bad right now? In ZE you hard scum read him until you figured him out, and now you think he’s town, but would you disagree that he’s playing differently here than he was in ZE?
Dawn called it. seen 2 scumgames from him by now to get an idea. but, he's not budging so there's not much I can do about it.
Remind you of anyone :P? I mean I did it in Penta’s game, and I did end up being horribly wrong, but I also changed my reads so many times that game… scum = Shadow/Grape/Wuffles? there should be a lurker in the mix, maybe Cyan
Idk about Wuffles, but I can agree with Shadow/Grape, and Cyan has been making some weird posts as of late
Town Iso doesn't say "no u", while it's almost a catchphrase for scum Iso.
I almost want to believe that you can play this badly as town.
Almost.
-
Unrelatedly, what in the hell is going on in this thread? Why are people voting tom? Why are people voting LW? Just, what?
I do not want to be a part of this trainwreck.
As bad as his posts may be, I am more inclined to believe that its just bad town play
Honestly don’t know why people are voting me or even Tom (I feel like if I read to into his posts then I will just tunnel onto him, because his posts can be frustrating at times), but I do want to know why you believe with out a doubt that I am town, meta wise I am nothing like I was in ZE, so what exactly do you see?
Rhand Last: answer my question please
I mean with sufficient enough reason sure? But like when has differences in opinions mean someone is scummy? I just vote whoever anyways, you telling me my vote is *****, wont make me believe my vote is any less *****
Why would a game with a bad D1 lynch automatically become a trainwreck?
I mean doesn’t this question already answer itself? I mean 90% D1 lynches are mislynches, but if someone thinks the lynch is going towards a mislynch, should they not speak their mind, regardless if you think it means nothing? And this almost seems you are ok with lynching solely for information… tsk tsk
So, Grape. I am continuing to stare at your argument and it still doesn't make much sense.
So, I claim that I believe Last is town due to his tone being casual and relaxed or whatever. I'm gonna ignore the part of my argument that he was being sincere since you apparently missed it. So I say that Last has qualities that you disagree with... So, therefore, I'm scum. I don't understand what lying about effectively Last's personality (which is outwardly apparent and visible to everyone) gains me.
And once my tone stops being relaxed, would you scum read me then? My tone being relaxed at this current time means nothing, I will get heated at dumb stuff regardless of my alignment, I just don’t see why you want to focus so early on whos town, rather than who it possible scum… That always baffles me when people on day 1 be like, “this guy is town,” was ur early post even needed? The only person I ever follow is Dawn anyways, so if you are trying to pocket me, its not working.
What is your opinion on Dawn’s scum choices? scum = Shadow/Grape/Wuffles? there should be a lurker in the mix, maybe Cyan
P.S… I still have a slight townish lean on you, I just still don’t see the point of calling me out for being town so early on
Grape This is very confrontational for now apparent reason. Why are so dismissive towards this question? Didn’t really have an answer at the time, and I wanted to see how he would react to that answer I guess… and you haven’t seen confrontational just yet this game Also your read on Rhand is not great. First off it's objectively not true, he's touched on many things that aren't votes on him or "bad votes". Second that's kind of key to how one plays the game. You challenge votes you think are bad. That's the whole point of forcing people to vote, and holding them accountable for why they made their votes. It's the main building block of mafia. I know you get defensive when anyone says anything negative about DBS (you did it in ZE as well) but just because he called her bad vote ba doesn't mean it's all he's done.
Maybe? But this early, you think a vote is bad? In mafia, we spend most of this game not really knowing anyones alignment, and you are gunna tell me, you have enough reason without a doubt to tell someone else, that there vote is bad? Day 2, ok, Day 3, that’s even better, but on day 1, you will not tell me my vote is bad. Your main building block shouldn’t be based off disagreements but rather why you tonally think they are scum, I mean if they drop a reason for the vote, and you think the reason for the vote is bad, then knock yourself out… Also I do not try to defend Dawn, she can defend herself, but to me, she is always town, so I will always be against her lynch…
In ZE, most of day 2 and 3, was this shin Dichotomy, and some people were saying Dawn was scum, while others were saying Shin was scum, and I come a long with, “Why can’t they both be town,” and my point is, that I think you try to hard to find reasons to scum read people This reply is wildly unrelated to the quote and very defensive. Just not even in the same ballpark. RE is talking about you being relaxed isn't a town tell and you go off on lurkers? What?This is the same person that wanted to town read me because I was scum too many games in a row, and sure I guess I went off a little in the wrong direction early on, but my point at the end still stands… If you plan on meta reading me to gather my alignment this game, you will surely dig your own grave. And part of this quote wasn’t even towards just RE, it was towards everyone who played with me in ZE…
Honestly, I just don’t want to RE to focus on me, she is good at catching scum imo, and by causing her to focus on me, I am doing exactly what I said I didn’t want to do in my earlier post…
Also her meta read on me is wrong, so meh
RE I wasn't reading properly, but I still want to know which posts gave you that vibe. The past 3 games I've played with last he's tunneled, he's stood out, and "sitting back and commenting" doesn't seem like the main thing he'd be known for in a game as town.
What games have I tunneled in? I tunneled hard in Penta’s Detective Mafia game, but nothing that I can remember outside of that, to that same degree…
Maybe, you should stop, and throw meta outside the window for your read on me, find some better reasons to scum read me
Grape Same thing. RE really doesn't say anything about your activity level. The style of your activity yes, but not even close to calling you a lurker. Also self meta...
I already told you my thoughts on self meta, which I will use so its weird that your attacking me for someone I’ve told you I am clearly ok with using…
also that post that I said was a mess, Tom's gif was pretty accurate, it was literally just a pile of contradictions and over the top points
So, Grape. I am continuing to stare at your argument and it still doesn't make much sense.
So, I claim that I believe Last is town due to his tone being casual and relaxed or whatever. I'm gonna ignore the part of my argument that he was being sincere since you apparently missed it. So I say that Last has qualities that you disagree with... So, therefore, I'm scum. I don't understand what lying about effectively Last's personality (which is outwardly apparent and visible to everyone) gains me.
I know you said that you missed the part where I was talking about sincerity. That's not my issue. My issue is how you saw that I had an opinion you disagreed with and immediately jumped to me being scum for it. Can you please explain how this makes sense to you?
Sidenote to everyone else: This isn't the post I wanted to make today. I wanted to do something more substantial. That ended up not happening. I'm going to try to do it after work tomorrow. If I can't, I'll figure something out. I haven't forgot about this game.
So you claim that you believe Last is town? This is not how town people talk. Town people say "I believe Last is town". See the difference? More votes on KJ please.
I was stating exactly what I said, "someone can do something scummy, and still be town, but that doesnt mean the scummy thing isnt any less scummy" and I dont even scum read him, or plan to push him
Tom
oh cool wuffles is making scummy posts now too
lol xD... his last few sentences about being away and not knowing meta, was I guess unnecessary?
It's not entirely wine, because day 1 stunts are rare. If he's scum, he's basically given up if he has to resort to this. And rather, if scum had a decent explanation, I don't see why they would hold off on claiming since that would just draw more attention to them. The less pressure you are under when you claim, the more likely it is your claim will be believed.
vez had 3 votes. It takes 10 votes to lynch someone. If he's scum, he'd want to push attention off of him, not draw it, which is only what a softclaim (if you could call it that) would do.
I find them lacking - no strong tests, and I mislike how much time he spends preemptively explaining his course. A further concern is that it seems fully half of his comments are regarding his own defense - and casting aspersions against specifically of those who suspect him.
This is enough for me to consider him among the less trustworthy of us, but not enough for me to wish to pursue him above all others right now.
Shadow joining in might be
But also
RE
I highly doubt scum would be able to pull up a decent explanation regardless of when they decide to pull it out. doubt is all you need for it to be a possibility
I don't see why they would hold off on claiming since that would just draw more attention to them seriously?
and I agree that Vez is probably town... I was just trying to say that, Scummy things are always scummy, but that doesnt mean the person doing them isnt town...
Which is... why he would do it as either alignment.
It slightly feels like he wants to claim which is bleh.
That’s really all I wanted, was an explanation. I don’t think being contradictory is inherently scummy, I was frustrated that you wouldn’t address it.
This is a game all about what we say; you’re not above justifying yourself just because you’re Tom, I expect to be able to scrutinize someone’s posts and have them give depth and clarity to them. You said two things that were seemingly at odds with each other, now you’ve clarified, which is all I wanted in the first place.
Still think you’re wrong to rate last that high.
Vote Last
It means that you’re being purposely obtuse. Still want an answer. Also, hilariously I think your syntax of copying and bolding might mean that you’re technically voting yourself. (I don’t actually think it would be counted, but you might be aware of that) oh please. Voting you is like one of the few ways I can agitate you just enough to get something from you (and half the time that doesn’t even work)
I mean Tom is correct, I am town, but I still dont see what he sees in my posts...
This feels so forced. I really need to go review LW's posts.
I agree contradictions aren't inherently scummy. And your explanation makes sense, but you had to go and contradict yourself again in finally making sense.
Also the fact that you've actually engaged with me and shadow on this is worrying. You brush so many things off and ignore them and I'm midly shocked at how defensive you have been over this.
As for why this is scummy: it's a mind state slip. At first you wanted to appease me without sorting Wisp, but now you forgot that read and wanted to town read wisp and used almost the same reasoning.
There were other things I wanted to comment on Wisp's big post (not a great look) wuffles v rhand (thumbs up for rhand down for wuffles) and Vezok (thumbs up despite it still leaving him a scum read, like the confidence hate the desire to claim) but I have no time.
hmm... Grape my actually be scum here, maybe it was too soon to town read him
Cyan
This feels so forced. I really need to go review LW's posts.
I mean as forced as this post seems, then sure... lol
Shadow
maybe tomorrow, who knows
Grape
#839 is a bundle of mess, also I would like to hear whatever your comments are on my big post that you so eagerly wanted to comment on...
@Silver : Why are you asking that question to specifically those 5 people?
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Check out the Shop Thread
town and town.
Last is fairly easy to read, here's an idea.
as for Iso, I've seen him enough as a player in ZE, about 4 phases(?), so I'm confident in the townread on him. also looked up his past games, and he's more 'wet noodle', as Tom calls it, when he's scum. don't see noodle!Iso here.
called it. seen 2 scumgames from him by now to get an idea. but, he's not budging so there's not much I can do about it.
Be grateful, always."
who's in my blind spot the entire game, or Rhand for that 'impossible' read.I'm still feeling like Vezok is town, for reasons I've stated before, and that Grape will be scum if we ever compare those 2 in mechanics talk. Kamikaze also town, for that post I've addressed - I actually hope he bets a video of shoe-eating if he wants to complain about my self-meta talk, because there's witnesses for it and all that. har har
Be grateful, always."
#759 looks....ok? reads at the bottom of the list are scumreading more for inactivity than actual substance. the "leaning scum on Grapefruit" is what confuses me about whether it's a town or scum post. I personally like the scumread on Grapes, but not the shade/read on lurking/inactivity.
Vote: Wuffles_II
I guess this will sort out my questions either way.
Be grateful, always."
Actually, it's probably one of the realest posts I've seen tom make in a game. That doesn't make him town necessarily, but it's almost certainly really how he feels about the situation.
I'm tentatively willing to say they're not w/w because of it, with the caveat that I have a truly terrible track record at catching scum!tom and scum!shadow.
But I don't think either of them are scum at the moment. I'd have to lynch through a sizeable chunk of my PoE before I even got to tom and shadow's in my light town leans.
Because I'm having a hard time reading them and wanted their opinions on the record for when/if something happens/it becomes important.
It's kind of related to that post that I'm still not talking about, mostly because I'm not totally convinced that the wagon is stalled and I think we should, at minimum, open the magic bag and then decide if we want to lynch you or someone else.
Mafia theory:
I almost want to believe that you can play this badly as town.
Almost.
-
Unrelatedly, what in the hell is going on in this thread? Why are people voting tom? Why are people voting LW? Just, what?
I do not want to be a part of this trainwreck.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Iso: can you explain me why last is town?
Why would a game with a bad D1 lynch automatically become a trainwreck?
@Wisp I'm about work on my reply to your big post and other events shortly but what exactly is "a bundle of mess" about my 839?
So, I claim that I believe Last is town due to his tone being casual and relaxed or whatever. I'm gonna ignore the part of my argument that he was being sincere since you apparently missed it. So I say that Last has qualities that you disagree with... So, therefore, I'm scum. I don't understand what lying about effectively Last's personality (which is outwardly apparent and visible to everyone) gains me.
I know you said that you missed the part where I was talking about sincerity. That's not my issue. My issue is how you saw that I had an opinion you disagreed with and immediately jumped to me being scum for it. Can you please explain how this makes sense to you?
Sidenote to everyone else: This isn't the post I wanted to make today. I wanted to do something more substantial. That ended up not happening. I'm going to try to do it after work tomorrow. If I can't, I'll figure something out. I haven't forgot about this game.
Also grape: pls keep responding
This is very confrontational for now apparent reason. Why are so dismissive towards this question?
Also your read on Rhand is not great. First off it's objectively not true, he's touched on many things that aren't votes on him or "bad votes". Second that's kind of key to how one plays the game. You challenge votes you think are bad. That's the whole point of forcing people to vote, and holding them accountable for why they made their votes. It's the main building block of mafia. I know you get defensive when anyone says anything negative about DBS (you did it in ZE as well) but just because he called her bad vote ba doesn't mean it's all he's done.
This reply is wildly unrelated to the quote and very defensive. Just not even in the same ballpark. RE is talking about you being relaxed isn't a town tell and you go off on lurkers? What?
Same thing. RE really doesn't say anything about your activity level. The style of your activity yes, but not even close to calling you a lurker. Also self meta...
This is fine. A bit all over the place but fine.
[/quote]
That's not shade. Shade is more when you dismiss someone without commiting to a read. For example saying something like "Wisp's vote is bad and he should feel bad" is a shade. If Rhand hadn't followed through with a vote his calling DBS' vote bad would have been shade.
That said why on earth did you pull this quote out to talk about your ead on Rhand? Did you miss the context where wuffles said she liked Rhand early but dinged him for lurking recently? Because that's a very different read to the one you made. And Wuffles liked Proph early but left him as a town read despite commenting on Proph lurking. That difference needs to be explained. And you chainsawing in and saying "Rhand doesn't deserve a town read at all, period" makes it harder to hold wuffles to a read and force them to explain why Rhand dropped for lurking but Proph didn't.
That's fair. My point which was not clear at all was more that you engaged at all. Now that you have your continued replies don't change my read.
Post 761 - Yeah, Tom, but that's a lot more good posts than a lot of people this game tho
Post 764 @ Grapefruit - You praised me, then said that my post after that was good, then agreed with a third post. Not sure if you just legitimately think I'm #goodposting or if you're cuddling up.
Lurking is...the sign of either a lazy townie (and lazy townies are basically worthless) or of a cautious scum that doesn't want to incriminate themselves. So I definitely look down on lurkers either way, and yes, that behaviour is often scummy.
I've already explained this a few time - while it's possible that Joe's role could appear on a scum, I'd honestly be glad if it did because that would be a lot less powerful than the kind of scum roles I would expect in a game like this. And the way he revealed it to us under no duress basically allows us to now use it for the good of the town. Getting a few townie points by revealing it as a scum gambit just doesn't feel worth it in comparison to keeping it secret if Joe were scum, because now he has to use it for the town or put himself in a super awkward position. This is why I think Joe is super-town.
Post 786 @ Rhand - I already said I was going to ISO Proph to back up why he feels so town to me in #759. He hasn't been the most active but when he does post I recall getting major town vibes. I'm going to ISO you as well to see if my differing feels toward the two of you are justified.
Post 794 @ Whisp - Yeah, the OMGUS is a bit puzzling to be sure, but to clarify - I didn't scum read him and please don't put words in my mouth - his latest behavior just cooled my initial reactions of him being town a bit. I'll look at this when I ISO him to see if that read is justified.
Post 816 @ Rhand - Yeah, I'm going to ISO you and proph to see if my original opinion is justified.
Post 820 @ Tom - :eyeroll:
Post 822 @ Wisp - Eh, on second thought, that's a fair callout. Maybe I jumped the gun a little there, since work is a valid reason to not post as much. I just hate self-meta justifications for bad behavior.
Post 833 @ Shadow - I like the way you throw shade at tom here, because his style can indeed be a bit maddening.
Post 842 @ Vezok - man you're such a tease. "I'm not going to be lynched." "heh, vote me and see" "Vote me so I can see who joins my wagon" "nah, I don't wanna claim."
TL;DR Gonna Iso Proph/Rhand and see just what it was that caused me to feel differing vibes between them despite their similar on-again-off-again styles this game, also replied to several other people.
Cross reference with other wagons and decide which votes were scummy and which weren't.
Unfortunately there are no other wagons right now so this has to happpen day 2 or later.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
Post 833 @ Shadow - I like the way you call out tom here, because his style can indeed be a bit maddening.*
I really like this post by Rhand. In multiple ways. First the content is good. His point towards wuffles is strong and his changing his DBS read based on it is a townie look. Second I like the tone a lot.
The wording towards wisp is fighting incredulity and I can see it coming from town Rhand easily.
Same with the opening towards Wuffles.
Assorted Vezok thoughts: his confidence is a good look. I don't remember him being ever that publicly confident in pirates or prison block. That said the apperance wanting to claim and egging on a wagon is not a good look. Silver went into why softing is bad already and I'll /barn him there. It's another mixed bag but I think the confidence is the most AI part of it. Just not enough to outweigh the Iso push.
That was magnified by the fact that most of the posts that could be described using the tone you used happened after your post where you expressed the town read. I thought his earliest posts were his most manic. Now granted that could easily be read as sincere.
Anyway as you said ne misunderstanding your wording isn't your problem. It's mine. And I've moved you back to my null pile. I'm still slightly pinged by your early town read on Wisp but nothing like I was earlier.
On lurkers I get what you're saying but with phases this long I think small pockets of inactivity are 100% NAI. If it becomes a patter and happens opportunistically then I agree it's scummy. Not dosagreeing on it being unhelpful, just on it being meaningful.
As for praising you I thought I praised one post (I may be misremembering) and yeah I thought it was good posting.
looking forward to the ISO on Proph and Rhand.
welp. when you end up applauding the winning end of the debacle.
what's your read on Wuffles?
Be grateful, always."
Also what about that was a debacle?
called it. seen 2 scumgames from him by now to get an idea. but, he's not budging so there's not much I can do about it.
Remind you of anyone :P? I mean I did it in Penta’s game, and I did end up being horribly wrong, but I also changed my reads so many times that game…
scum = Shadow/Grape/Wuffles? there should be a lurker in the mix, maybe Cyan
Idk about Wuffles, but I can agree with Shadow/Grape, and Cyan has been making some weird posts as of late
As bad as his posts may be, I am more inclined to believe that its just bad town play
Honestly don’t know why people are voting me or even Tom (I feel like if I read to into his posts then I will just tunnel onto him, because his posts can be frustrating at times), but I do want to know why you believe with out a doubt that I am town, meta wise I am nothing like I was in ZE, so what exactly do you see?
Rhand
Last: answer my question please
I mean with sufficient enough reason sure? But like when has differences in opinions mean someone is scummy? I just vote whoever anyways, you telling me my vote is *****, wont make me believe my vote is any less *****
Why would a game with a bad D1 lynch automatically become a trainwreck?
I mean doesn’t this question already answer itself? I mean 90% D1 lynches are mislynches, but if someone thinks the lynch is going towards a mislynch, should they not speak their mind, regardless if you think it means nothing? And this almost seems you are ok with lynching solely for information… tsk tsk
And once my tone stops being relaxed, would you scum read me then? My tone being relaxed at this current time means nothing, I will get heated at dumb stuff regardless of my alignment, I just don’t see why you want to focus so early on whos town, rather than who it possible scum… That always baffles me when people on day 1 be like, “this guy is town,” was ur early post even needed? The only person I ever follow is Dawn anyways, so if you are trying to pocket me, its not working.
What is your opinion on Dawn’s scum choices?
scum = Shadow/Grape/Wuffles? there should be a lurker in the mix, maybe Cyan
P.S… I still have a slight townish lean on you, I just still don’t see the point of calling me out for being town so early on
That’s grape for you… Its like when you get into an argument, then say u will stop, but continue anyways…
Smells of contradiction…
P.S this post was suppose to be a lot larger, but somewhere a long the line, I got lost in all the quotes and broke it... so Im splitting it up
This is very confrontational for now apparent reason. Why are so dismissive towards this question? Didn’t really have an answer at the time, and I wanted to see how he would react to that answer I guess… and you haven’t seen confrontational just yet this game
Also your read on Rhand is not great. First off it's objectively not true, he's touched on many things that aren't votes on him or "bad votes". Second that's kind of key to how one plays the game. You challenge votes you think are bad. That's the whole point of forcing people to vote, and holding them accountable for why they made their votes. It's the main building block of mafia. I know you get defensive when anyone says anything negative about DBS (you did it in ZE as well) but just because he called her bad vote ba doesn't mean it's all he's done.
Maybe? But this early, you think a vote is bad? In mafia, we spend most of this game not really knowing anyones alignment, and you are gunna tell me, you have enough reason without a doubt to tell someone else, that there vote is bad? Day 2, ok, Day 3, that’s even better, but on day 1, you will not tell me my vote is bad. Your main building block shouldn’t be based off disagreements but rather why you tonally think they are scum, I mean if they drop a reason for the vote, and you think the reason for the vote is bad, then knock yourself out… Also I do not try to defend Dawn, she can defend herself, but to me, she is always town, so I will always be against her lynch…
In ZE, most of day 2 and 3, was this shin Dichotomy, and some people were saying Dawn was scum, while others were saying Shin was scum, and I come a long with, “Why can’t they both be town,” and my point is, that I think you try to hard to find reasons to scum read people
This reply is wildly unrelated to the quote and very defensive. Just not even in the same ballpark. RE is talking about you being relaxed isn't a town tell and you go off on lurkers? What?This is the same person that wanted to town read me because I was scum too many games in a row, and sure I guess I went off a little in the wrong direction early on, but my point at the end still stands… If you plan on meta reading me to gather my alignment this game, you will surely dig your own grave. And part of this quote wasn’t even towards just RE, it was towards everyone who played with me in ZE…
Honestly, I just don’t want to RE to focus on me, she is good at catching scum imo, and by causing her to focus on me, I am doing exactly what I said I didn’t want to do in my earlier post…
Also her meta read on me is wrong, so meh
RE
I wasn't reading properly, but I still want to know which posts gave you that vibe. The past 3 games I've played with last he's tunneled, he's stood out, and "sitting back and commenting" doesn't seem like the main thing he'd be known for in a game as town.
What games have I tunneled in? I tunneled hard in Penta’s Detective Mafia game, but nothing that I can remember outside of that, to that same degree…
Maybe, you should stop, and throw meta outside the window for your read on me, find some better reasons to scum read me
Grape
Same thing. RE really doesn't say anything about your activity level. The style of your activity yes, but not even close to calling you a lurker. Also self meta...
I already told you my thoughts on self meta, which I will use so its weird that your attacking me for someone I’ve told you I am clearly ok with using…
also that post that I said was a mess, Tom's gif was pretty accurate, it was literally just a pile of contradictions and over the top points