@Wuffles
I actually like to ask players about their own meta/playstyle. it's a question directed at a person, without being offensive, so it's a good way to begin reading a person. mechanics and other questions can be shady. how does one see themselves, how does the way one sees themselves conform with the reality you're seeing, and so on. but I do agree we've focused on it too much at this point.
while Kamikaze's question felt loaded, I'm not sure if it comes from scum either. what do you think of his catch on my 'side comment'? bad, good, or NAI?
@Grapefruit21
hmm not really familiar with the term 'blood from stone' but I see what you mean. ok then, defocusing on them...
do you think scum are inactive, active, or a mix of both? nice catch on #657 btw. guess I'll take a look at Vezok again.
@LastWhisper
mind giving us a couple of thoughts on other players? you need to talk more~ even RE has more posts than you just kidding
(enough mental exercise for the day)
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
Crap yeah I meant terry not tom. Terry's ability is pretty meh on a scum but fantastic on a townie so assuming that the item does what he has said he's off my radar for now.
Kamikaze Archon on the other hand - that post you made asking for DBS to explain why you think she's "unwholesome" seems super loaded as a question. If she answers, it gives you ammunition for later to say "she *herself* admits that x" (keeping your hands clean in the process) whereas if she doesn't it's her evading your question which is scummy.
When scumhunting from a townie perspective, to me at least it makes sense to give people a chance to not incriminate themselves with their questions - because I prefer not to incriminate and mislynch townies when I'm hunting for scum.
Scum on the other hand want to incriminate anyone they talk to or about and so are much more likely to use loaded questions to incriminate people.
I think that's enough reason to Unvote, Vote KamikazeArchon.
How is my ability better for town then it is for scum?
@Wisp I don't but was being asked to. It would be nice to sort everyone early but that isn't realistic at all. And when you're posting NAI things like self meta is helpful it's hard to solve you.
@tom fair enough.
@DBS is such an evocative term. I'm a big fan. As for scum I'd imagine there is a mix across lurkers and actives just on math. Don't really have much insight there.
@lastwhisper - I dunno, it just feels so weird and unintuitive to me to respond to attacks by saying "nah that's not true I do this when I'm scum". It's such a bad defence because if you're aware of what you do as scum, of course you're going to course-correct to avoid seeming that way in future games. It's just a bad argument and a bad defence in general.
No, it really is that simple. Throw meta out the window and look at motivations, tone, wording and implications in context. Don't rely on meta, you'll get tripped up at every turn otherwise.
@DBS yup, you in particular have spent way too much time invoking your personal meta as a defence and it makes you hard to read.
@therealstinkyjoeterry: I mean the ability doesn't directly mess with anything or interact with players negatively; which inherently seems more townie. And the way you revealed it is basically submitting it to the town to add an extra analysis tool to our arsenal to prevent dangerous items from coming up for purchase. A scum gets nothing except townie points for doing so - the cost to them of keeping the ability to themselves would far outweigh the benefits of seeming more townie.
Your actions indicate a townie mindset and it's a pretty meh ability for the scum now that it's revealed.
I mean, are you asking me to hold your hand and walk you through it? Because you haven't really highlighted for me what part of my assessment of the game state you disagree with, which would make it infinitely easier for me to walk you through it [presuming you are town] and correct your view, and I would certainly feel more inclined to even bother attempting to do so. Giving me a broad "well maybe it isn't that way?" is just entirely too vague. I'm not trying to be condescending, but this *really* isn't a terribly difficult concept.
That would be great. Thanks.
Specifically, I'll ship Vezok/Grape with you, but I disagree that Atog's weird interaction with Vezok makes them all likely to be scum together.
@silver: I'm voting for atog because he is exhibiting classic scum behaviour of lurking until he's pressured and then doing nothing of value. Couple that with lurking being scum meta on MAL.
I still haven't read disinheritence as I have stuff to do this week as it's my birthday. I'll try to do it on Thursday.
Right now I think tog has a higher chance of being scum than Iso.
Ah, okay. Togs has an extremely flaky meta as both alignments, and apparently that's the case on MAL as well? But my first game ever he replaced in on like day 3, lurked a bunch, and immediately got mislynched, so I'm not reading too much into him lurking.
@vezokpiraka You never replied to my #15. I don’t actually care about this topic all that much but I’m miffed that you didn’t respond.
If he doesn’t care, why does he continue to pursue it here and again a couple of posts later? It feels like he’s only following up because he knows he’s “supposed to”. Clearly you disagree, can you go into why?
Either way, he pops up for pressure and vanishes afterward and I don’t think we should be letting off the pressure here.
If he's only doing it because he's "supposed to" he wouldn't say he doesn't care about the answer to the question. He's explicitly denying credit for following up on it by saying the answer doesn't really matter to him. /wine, I guess, but eh.
I don't think trying to pressure him is going to do us much good, either. If we get to the end of the day and want to policy lynch him for not contributing or something, I won't lose any sleep over it, but I'd rather pressure players who are actually going to respond to it.
@Wuffs: I was being cheeky, actually. My plan was "lynch who I think is scum and win from it", but unfortunately, I didn't see anybody hit the panic button in response to me appearing as though I had figured out the game, which I was trying to use as a tool to gauge a few people. I mean, there's a little more to it than that, but that's related to things I'm not talking about, yet.
Also, I remember Chamber! I just never played with him since he was banned before my time.
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@RE: That's fine, then - I often townread people for having the same reactions I did to particular posts. Unfortunately, that's bitten me in the ass, before (most recent example being Megiddo in Zero Escape Mafia), but yeah. I get it.
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@Silver: Still waiting for you to explain why you disagree/don't understand.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Silver: Still waiting for you to explain why you disagree/don't understand.
I mean. I'll try to rephrase.
I don't see any reason to assume that Togs would be more likely to chase Vezok down and explicitly deny credit for doing so if they were partners than if he was town. What, exactly, about the interaction led you to the conclusion that Togs would be unlikely to do that as town?
Because as far as I can gather, the rest follows from that; if Togs is scum, then yeah, he'd probably be trying to force an interaction with a partner there. I just don't know where the assumption of guilt comes from in the first place.
It's like he pulled a name out of a hat, if that's the case. Why would any rando townie decide, "Oh, you know what? I think I should confront one specific person about not having an opinion on me as of yet, and then complain when they ignore me."
I see that as infinitely more likely to come from scum saying, "Hey, buddy, interact with me so we don't look bad!"
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I don't really think you're scummy on an individual basis, it's just that your vezok progression looks weird, so. If he's town I'll have to reevaluate.
@Re: For how early that soft claim was I could believe it came from either town or scum. I agree that scum could use that ability better if not claimed, but I could also see tog softclaim for townie points.
This is pure delicious waffle. Yes it's an inherently winey situation but that is about as surface level non commital gibberish as it gets.
Really? Because that was the answer I came to, I just think there's a greater chance Togs is town for it.
What would your answer be?
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2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Re: For how early that soft claim was I could believe it came from either town or scum. I agree that scum could use that ability better if not claimed, but I could also see tog softclaim for townie points.
This is pure delicious waffle. Yes it's an inherently winey situation but that is about as surface level non commital gibberish as it gets.
Really? Because that was the answer I came to, I just think there's a greater chance Togs is town for it.
What would your answer be?
What about my progression makes it look specifically like a buddy interaction?
There's this effect where, when you're someone's scum partner, you tend to magnify their mistakes because you know they're scum. That's what it feels like to me.
In order for you to be town you'd have had to have done a complete 180 from "I'm hard defending this dude because he's posting the way he posted in the scum chat I shared with him" to "this dude needs lynched" just because he made a bad meta read on Iso. Like. Either you had no confidence in the read to begin with, in which case, I have no idea why you were going to bat for him, or like... I don't even know what else could really explain that. But I *think* you're his buddy and know he screwed up so you tried to get in on the bus early.
And I mean, technically speaking, you could be a wolf even if vezok is town I guess, but it'd have to have been an extremely aggressive play or an attempt to pocket Iso by agreeing with him or something. Like, a borderline behavioral gambit you made while panicking, but if Vezok isn't your buddy there wouldn't really have been a reason to panic. It was too early in the game to be an actual attempt at a mislynch that you thought could succeed. I just don't really think this is a world.
Soooo. Yeah. If he's town, I don't think you're a wolf because that whole line doesn't make much sense. If he's scum, it makes perfect sense if you're his partner.
Also kinda feel like I had a really similar vezok progression
You kind of don't though? You said something about liking about the way he framed his mechanics speculation and then started scum reading him when you got his Iso vote during your catch up. At least, I'm pretty sure that's what happened, you never explicitly gave a read on Vezok.
Grape was actively defending him and then pivoted really hard. You even pointed out that Grape's defense of him was weird, though you said it made them hard unaligned because "lol saying your scum buddy is posting like he did in your last scum chat," or something to that effect.
I have one main idea from it that should be discussed. It's about auction numbers. Should we all claim and decide on who gets what item or should we stay hidden this way minimizing the potential of a townie with a good item being eliminated. I can see advantages and disadvantages for both of these options.
Would like to hear your rundowns on the advantages and whatnot since you obviously put in a lot more thought than me, I thought this was a Batman game until I got my role pm. I think I’d actually be in favor of keeping what items we get in the open and such because it would promote cooperation and communication and that’s always lovely to see in a game.
I will say though, I have an ability that can affect the bidding process, which is probably not the only one present in the setup and I’d be very surprised if the scum didn’t have one. So, keeping track of everything probably won’t be perfect but it can also help spot out when abilities like this aren’t used for good.
I did ask for some elaboration of your plan after your entrance then I poked you when you didn’t respond to my thoughts and I poked you again when you didn’t respond to that either.. Basically I want you to acknowledge I exist, lol. I do think it’s kind of weird you didn’t engage me further since I was like, the only guy who voiced support for your plan.
Atog's last post makes me think he is scum as it says almost nothing and appeared right after suspicion started mounting on him.
Just because you don’t read my posts doesn’t mean they don’t say anything.
It was all about the plan, he never said anything about wanting vezok's opinion on his alignment. The first two posts are the #15 and #89 he references in the third post, for the record, in case you don't want to click the links. I guess the last post is almost what you said he said? Is that the one you're talking about?
I did ask for some elaboration of your plan after your entrance then I poked you when you didn’t respond to my thoughts and I poked you again when you didn’t respond to that either.. Basically I want you to acknowledge I exist, lol. I do think it’s kind of weird you didn’t engage me further since I was like, the only guy who voiced support for your plan.
You could argue that the fixation on the plan is odd (but not really since Togs liked the plan?), but I don't think he was specifically asking for vez's read on him.
@Re: For how early that soft claim was I could believe it came from either town or scum. I agree that scum could use that ability better if not claimed, but I could also see tog softclaim for townie points.
This is pure delicious waffle. Yes it's an inherently winey situation but that is about as surface level non commital gibberish as it gets.
Really? Because that was the answer I came to, I just think there's a greater chance Togs is town for it.
What would your answer be?
what answer did vezok come to?
That the claim was NAI. And then I'm assuming, he saw Togs' posts as scummy, so that's where he leans.
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The biggest wagons are at 3 votes each. It's a lot easier to analyse wagons later in the game when we have flips if we make bigger wagons day 1.
I kinda want everyone to try to consolidate on a wagons or make a good case on the person they are voting if they want the wagon to take off.
Also silver is third vote on my wagon. His progression on me looks awful. Asking questions with no follow-up and making a non-sense link between me and grape.
I still want atog lynched faster tho.
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2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@silver that is a really cool read. It's wrong, but it's really cool. Think it's townie of you too because it seems like a horrible read to fake if you're scum regardless of Vez being your buddy or not.
@RE I think you're reading more into Vezok's waffle than there is. At no point does he say he thinks atog is townie or scummy for it but also doesn't call it out as NAI. He hedges giving all 3 options and commits to none. Hence the waffle.
As for my conclusion I'd say it's townie. And I'm giving it a bit more town + weight coming from atog. Occasionally scum will yolo claim early when the have a town+ ability (I almost did in pirates an
(And almost did in pirate's and would have if not for missing a hammer) but it's still a town + move if it's not under pressure because they still have to walk the walk and stay townie and be out a future claim to fall back on under pressure. And atog probably doesn't have the confidence that he could pull it off. Wine but I'm drinking it every time.
@silver that is a really cool read. It's wrong, but it's really cool. Think it's townie of you too because it seems like a horrible read to fake if you're scum regardless of Vez being your buddy or not.
@silver that is a really cool read. It's wrong, but it's really cool. Think it's townie of you too because it seems like a horrible read to fake if you're scum regardless of Vez being your buddy or not.
@silver that is a really cool read. It's wrong, but it's really cool. Think it's townie of you too because it seems like a horrible read to fake if you're scum regardless of Vez being your buddy or not.
vote grapefruit
lol
O.o
Can I get a little more from you than “lol”; why do you think Tom’s voting you for this?
Terry LW kind of latches on that RVS argument Shin was pushing on me
What?
also RE's slot and me are T/T imo, maybe? probably? well the point of the quarrel with shin, had nothing to do with alignments, its the fact that he likes to argue over the semantics of little things... like I cant even tell if he was serious with that argument? but hey, who knows?
tom how much of your choice to never try to appear townie is from wanting to bolster your scum game over time versus thinking it's your best way to win an individual game as town? Not really relevant, but curious.
@Terry when you're back from that breakdown it sounds like you're feeling good about Dota, Shin, and kind of Rhand. And pinged by Vezok, Wisp, and to a lesser extent Yurkin and KJ. Is that roughly fair? If so can you go into more on what you like about Dota. Is it just the mind meld?
Can you talk about you torn feelings about my setup spec? My railing against the logs requires heavy spec so I'm a bit confused how you can draw town feelings from it while being worried because it depends on the speculation.
I still need to break down more. I'm not jumping to conclusions yet.
@Wuffs: I was being cheeky, actually. My plan was "lynch who I think is scum and win from it", but unfortunately, I didn't see anybody hit the panic button in response to me appearing as though I had figured out the game, which I was trying to use as a tool to gauge a few people. I mean, there's a little more to it than that, but that's related to things I'm not talking about, yet.
This makes me extremely uneasy. It comes across as very dishonest.
@silver that is a really cool read. It's wrong, but it's really cool. Think it's townie of you too because it seems like a horrible read to fake if you're scum regardless of Vez being your buddy or not.
@RE I think you're reading more into Vezok's waffle than there is. At no point does he say he thinks atog is townie or scummy for it but also doesn't call it out as NAI. He hedges giving all 3 options and commits to none. Hence the waffle.
As for my conclusion I'd say it's townie. And I'm giving it a bit more town + weight coming from atog. Occasionally scum will yolo claim early when the have a town+ ability (I almost did in pirates an
Well, I was solely asking if the claim would change anything about his read on Togs. I already knew he scumread Togs. I just was curious if people were taking his claim into consideration when scumreading him, since I saw it barely mentioned.
And okay, lol.
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@Wuffs: I was being cheeky, actually. My plan was "lynch who I think is scum and win from it", but unfortunately, I didn't see anybody hit the panic button in response to me appearing as though I had figured out the game, which I was trying to use as a tool to gauge a few people. I mean, there's a little more to it than that, but that's related to things I'm not talking about, yet.
This makes me extremely uneasy. It comes across as very dishonest.
@Proph: Like I said, I attributed shadow's start to shaky footing. DoT has done nothing that I explicitly remember so far; why curious about him in particular? As for you, I think pretty much the same thing about you as I think about shadow - nothing particularly bad, just trying to get your head in the game, which seems fine. That said, I don't really agree with your placement on Togs, Grape, and LW. The rest are alright, I guess.
Was curious about him because I wanted for you to stop talking about the trio of Togs/Grape/vezok for a little bit and wanted your insight on some players who I think are a little under the radar.
What do you think about my reasoning for Togs/Grape? Do you think Grape has the mental strength as scum to top-post and be active/engaged in the thread? What do you think Grape's agenda is if he's scum? Also, can you talk more about your Last read, given that the most substantial thing I believe you have said about him is.. this?
Quote from Iso »
I enjoy LastWhisper's take on vezok's reaction to this vote, as it was the exact sentiment that reflected my own thoughts on the matter."
@proph
Kinda want to sheep that togs read...
Think both of y'all are easy to lynch early and easy to clear late.
How bad does shadow have to play to be townie to you?
Is dawn a townread for gut alone? Nothing in there seems positive.
Why would scum grapefruit not talk mechanics?
I don't really know because I haven't... exactly played with town!shadow and I'm trying to figure out how it would manifest. I think the last games I've played with him were the hydra game where both of you were scum, and Silence of the Lambs, where I was scum with him. He was pretty engaged in Silence of the Lambs while kind of disengaged in the hydra game (probably because it was on MU + a hydra game), so. Kind of want to poke at him with sticks more in order to actually figure out things.
I'm liking dawning because she noticed the thing that I felt off about shadow and was appropriately pressuring him, but now she's on Rhand for whatever reason? I have trouble figuring out her alignment early so like I said, kind of just want to push her off to the side for now and figure her out based off of flipped scum etc.
And I am not sure if Grape would talk mechanics as soon as he enters the thread as scum because I feel like for scum!Grape, he'd have way too much other stuff on his mind - like the fact that this would be his third scum rand in a row - to focus overtly on the mechanics? Kind of a WiFOMy read but it makes sense in my head.
Grape, I will get to your vezok progression after I finish catching up.
Proph/Cross Quote from Iso »
I enjoy LastWhisper's take on vezok's reaction to this vote, as it was the exact sentiment that reflected my own thoughts on the matter."
where did Iso say that????
@Wuffs: I was being cheeky, actually. My plan was "lynch who I think is scum and win from it", but unfortunately, I didn't see anybody hit the panic button in response to me appearing as though I had figured out the game, which I was trying to use as a tool to gauge a few people. I mean, there's a little more to it than that, but that's related to things I'm not talking about, yet.
This makes me extremely uneasy. It comes across as very dishonest.
why tho?
It just feels fake, and really not like how town Iso approaches the game anyway. Like, we've had long detailed conversations talking about how 'if a person doesn't make sense as an entire scum team, they're not scum'. And I've seen Iso successfully employ that approach as town multiple games, so I'm very skeptical that he would abandon it here.
It feels much more like he went after Vezok as low hanging fruit, and is backing off of it now that no one cares.
Yeah I think I've convinced myself. Unvote, Vote Iso
I agree that dawn is acting weirdly based on what I've seen of her play prior, but I attributed that to her tempering her play due to her now multi-game experience here, including a Day 1 mislynch in Pirates Mafia. Her tone is dramatically different from what I recall in Zero Escape, and she honestly sounds almost a bit bitter.
To the people who have played with her at MAL, is this indicative of her scum game, or just some sort of weird outlier?
I just got off a game where she was scum and she had stuff that.. I liked for Day 1 (like she had good townie tone) but then I copped a scum and she had not great interactions with her buddy, so we ended up solving the game on Day 3. That's why I'm content to leave her alone for now.
Quote from vezokpiraka »
I'm really liking Proph's catch-up post. Seems genuine to me and I really like how his reads progress.
Explain exactly what you found genuine and what reads you liked? Your comment seems a little too vague for a post I literally spent most of the day working on.
Quote from shadowlancerx »
Proph: my questions regarding Kami’s role play were specifically designed to see if the players in question were actually really him or just seeing the role play and skimming. I specifically believe that Kami’s posts have had actual thought to them and a skimming scum very possibly wouldn’t have noticed that. As for why I didn’t post my own thoughts early, mostly cause I didn’t have any worth posting.
And yes, I do enjoy playing scum, but using that to try and gauge my alignment based on my engagement is not worthwhile. I’ve had games where I’ve been fully engaged as scum and town, and games where I couldn’t get into them as scum and town. Actually I just played a game on DLP where I replaced into a scum slot and made a royal muck up of things partially due to difficulty getting into the game.
Also, I’m gonna disagree with your assessment on Atog, I think the posts you specifically quoted look exactly not townie, he’s not getting specific, he’s not putting opinions into them, he’s just floating.
Fair enough re: the Kami role play thing.
If you don't believe that using engagement towards the game is a reliable way to read you, then what do you think is the best way for people to read/sort you, shadow?
And.. in those posts that I'm quoting of Togs's, he is actively trying to work to sort people and get discussion moving/trying to talk with people. I'm not really seeing how he's exactly "floating". I do want him to post more though.
I actually like to ask players about their own meta/playstyle. it's a question directed at a person, without being offensive, so it's a good way to begin reading a person. mechanics and other questions can be shady. how does one see themselves, how does the way one sees themselves conform with the reality you're seeing, and so on. but I do agree we've focused on it too much at this point.
while Kamikaze's question felt loaded, I'm not sure if it comes from scum either. what do you think of his catch on my 'side comment'? bad, good, or NAI?
@Grapefruit21
hmm not really familiar with the term 'blood from stone' but I see what you mean. ok then, defocusing on them...
do you think scum are inactive, active, or a mix of both? nice catch on #657 btw. guess I'll take a look at Vezok again.
@LastWhisper
mind giving us a couple of thoughts on other players? you need to talk more~ even RE has more posts than you
just kidding(enough mental exercise for the day)
Be grateful, always."
@tom fair enough.
@DBS is such an evocative term. I'm a big fan. As for scum I'd imagine there is a mix across lurkers and actives just on math. Don't really have much insight there.
No, it really is that simple. Throw meta out the window and look at motivations, tone, wording and implications in context. Don't rely on meta, you'll get tripped up at every turn otherwise.
@DBS yup, you in particular have spent way too much time invoking your personal meta as a defence and it makes you hard to read.
But it's... especially useless for someone like me that's ridiculously self aware.
Would put dawn on that list
Your actions indicate a townie mindset and it's a pretty meh ability for the scum now that it's revealed.
Specifically, I'll ship Vezok/Grape with you, but I disagree that Atog's weird interaction with Vezok makes them all likely to be scum together.
Ah, okay. Togs has an extremely flaky meta as both alignments, and apparently that's the case on MAL as well? But my first game ever he replaced in on like day 3, lurked a bunch, and immediately got mislynched, so I'm not reading too much into him lurking.
If he's only doing it because he's "supposed to" he wouldn't say he doesn't care about the answer to the question. He's explicitly denying credit for following up on it by saying the answer doesn't really matter to him. /wine, I guess, but eh.
I don't think trying to pressure him is going to do us much good, either. If we get to the end of the day and want to policy lynch him for not contributing or something, I won't lose any sleep over it, but I'd rather pressure players who are actually going to respond to it.
Also, I remember Chamber! I just never played with him since he was banned before my time.
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@RE: That's fine, then - I often townread people for having the same reactions I did to particular posts. Unfortunately, that's bitten me in the ass, before (most recent example being Megiddo in Zero Escape Mafia), but yeah. I get it.
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@Silver: Still waiting for you to explain why you disagree/don't understand.
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2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I don't see any reason to assume that Togs would be more likely to chase Vezok down and explicitly deny credit for doing so if they were partners than if he was town. What, exactly, about the interaction led you to the conclusion that Togs would be unlikely to do that as town?
Because as far as I can gather, the rest follows from that; if Togs is scum, then yeah, he'd probably be trying to force an interaction with a partner there. I just don't know where the assumption of guilt comes from in the first place.
I see that as infinitely more likely to come from scum saying, "Hey, buddy, interact with me so we don't look bad!"
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
He wanted Vezok's opinion on the plan they had both, essentially, proposed and had shot down be everyone else.
It didn't have anything to do with Vezok not having an alignment read on him.
Silvercrys3467
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
Iso
Prophylaxis
Rhand
shadowlancerx
KamikazeArchon
Atogaholic
tomsloger
dawningbluesky
RE1031
Lastwhisper
Cantripmancer
DoTArchon
Cyan
Wuffles_II
Killjoy
Grapefruit21*
vezokpiraka
Lean Scum
Pretty rough and the nulls there are kind of muddy/unsorted.
vote: vezok
The following votecount should be correct.
Atogaholic - 3 (Cyan, shadowlancerx, vezokpiraka)
vezokpiraka - 3 (Iso, Grapefruit21, Silvercrys3467)
dawningbluesky - 2 (Rhand, KamikazeArchon)
Rhand - 2 (dawningbluesky, Lastwhisper)
Killjoy - 1 (Atogaholic)
Grapefruit21 - 1 (DoTArchon)
shadowlancerx - 1 (Prophylaxis)
Cyan - 1 (RE1031)
Wuffles_II - 1 (tomsloger)
KamikazeArchon - 1 (Wuffles_II)
Not Voting - 3 (TheRealStinkyJoeTerry, Cantripmancer, Killjoy)
What would your answer be?
wat
Atog pretty much literally said, "hey vezok, you should have an opinion on me by now - why haven't you expressed it in the thread?"
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
In order for you to be town you'd have had to have done a complete 180 from "I'm hard defending this dude because he's posting the way he posted in the scum chat I shared with him" to "this dude needs lynched" just because he made a bad meta read on Iso. Like. Either you had no confidence in the read to begin with, in which case, I have no idea why you were going to bat for him, or like... I don't even know what else could really explain that. But I *think* you're his buddy and know he screwed up so you tried to get in on the bus early.
And I mean, technically speaking, you could be a wolf even if vezok is town I guess, but it'd have to have been an extremely aggressive play or an attempt to pocket Iso by agreeing with him or something. Like, a borderline behavioral gambit you made while panicking, but if Vezok isn't your buddy there wouldn't really have been a reason to panic. It was too early in the game to be an actual attempt at a mislynch that you thought could succeed. I just don't really think this is a world.
Soooo. Yeah. If he's town, I don't think you're a wolf because that whole line doesn't make much sense. If he's scum, it makes perfect sense if you're his partner.
You kind of don't though? You said something about liking about the way he framed his mechanics speculation and then started scum reading him when you got his Iso vote during your catch up. At least, I'm pretty sure that's what happened, you never explicitly gave a read on Vezok.
Grape was actively defending him and then pivoted really hard. You even pointed out that Grape's defense of him was weird, though you said it made them hard unaligned because "lol saying your scum buddy is posting like he did in your last scum chat," or something to that effect.
He /really/ didn't.
I kinda want everyone to try to consolidate on a wagons or make a good case on the person they are voting if they want the wagon to take off.
Also silver is third vote on my wagon. His progression on me looks awful. Asking questions with no follow-up and making a non-sense link between me and grape.
I still want atog lynched faster tho.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
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{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Pretty blatant
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@RE I think you're reading more into Vezok's waffle than there is. At no point does he say he thinks atog is townie or scummy for it but also doesn't call it out as NAI. He hedges giving all 3 options and commits to none. Hence the waffle.
As for my conclusion I'd say it's townie. And I'm giving it a bit more town + weight coming from atog. Occasionally scum will yolo claim early when the have a town+ ability (I almost did in pirates an
(And almost did in pirate's and would have if not for missing a hammer) but it's still a town + move if it's not under pressure because they still have to walk the walk and stay townie and be out a future claim to fall back on under pressure. And atog probably doesn't have the confidence that he could pull it off. Wine but I'm drinking it every time.
lol
Can I get a little more from you than “lol”; why do you think Tom’s voting you for this?
My best guess is it looks like a "you got me that's cool" post. I think it reads as Silver might actually be town post.
This makes me extremely uneasy. It comes across as very dishonest.
And okay, lol.
What do you think about my reasoning for Togs/Grape? Do you think Grape has the mental strength as scum to top-post and be active/engaged in the thread? What do you think Grape's agenda is if he's scum? Also, can you talk more about your Last read, given that the most substantial thing I believe you have said about him is.. this?
I don't really know because I haven't... exactly played with town!shadow and I'm trying to figure out how it would manifest. I think the last games I've played with him were the hydra game where both of you were scum, and Silence of the Lambs, where I was scum with him. He was pretty engaged in Silence of the Lambs while kind of disengaged in the hydra game (probably because it was on MU + a hydra game), so. Kind of want to poke at him with sticks more in order to actually figure out things.
I'm liking dawning because she noticed the thing that I felt off about shadow and was appropriately pressuring him, but now she's on Rhand for whatever reason? I have trouble figuring out her alignment early so like I said, kind of just want to push her off to the side for now and figure her out based off of flipped scum etc.
And I am not sure if Grape would talk mechanics as soon as he enters the thread as scum because I feel like for scum!Grape, he'd have way too much other stuff on his mind - like the fact that this would be his third scum rand in a row - to focus overtly on the mechanics? Kind of a WiFOMy read but it makes sense in my head.
Grape, I will get to your vezok progression after I finish catching up.
Quote from Iso »
I enjoy LastWhisper's take on vezok's reaction to this vote, as it was the exact sentiment that reflected my own thoughts on the matter."
where did Iso say that????
It just feels fake, and really not like how town Iso approaches the game anyway. Like, we've had long detailed conversations talking about how 'if a person doesn't make sense as an entire scum team, they're not scum'. And I've seen Iso successfully employ that approach as town multiple games, so I'm very skeptical that he would abandon it here.
It feels much more like he went after Vezok as low hanging fruit, and is backing off of it now that no one cares.
Yeah I think I've convinced myself. Unvote, Vote Iso
Explain exactly what you found genuine and what reads you liked? Your comment seems a little too vague for a post I literally spent most of the day working on.
Fair enough re: the Kami role play thing.
If you don't believe that using engagement towards the game is a reliable way to read you, then what do you think is the best way for people to read/sort you, shadow?
And.. in those posts that I'm quoting of Togs's, he is actively trying to work to sort people and get discussion moving/trying to talk with people. I'm not really seeing how he's exactly "floating". I do want him to post more though.