These words give me chills. What I hear is that you are offended by the assertion of being caught, not by the assertion that you are a cultist.
Sorry, could you explain why you used the word cultist here? Did I miss something?
@Iso
There are times I can strongly read PHRAWN as town, and she's town. Currently, I feel her reads are coming from town (as in I understand them), but I'm not getting that same gut feel, so I'm not as certain right now.
Prawn
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@tom: Do you think that my push on Togs is scummy because you think he's easy to lynch early?
nah he's easy to lynch if you're town too.
Honestly that's part of the wanting to wait. Think he'll show his alignment more later (if he hasn't replaced out by then lol)
The Rhand vs DBS thing is giving me really weird vibes.
Rhand is pushing way too hard for DBS with no good reason, with the exception of the "side comment", but I can still see what town DBS was trying to say.
DBS pushing the drunk posting thing is simply illogical from both alignments. Drunk posting happens as both alignments. For me, it's directly correlated with how engaged I am in the game.
@Rhand: Can you outline a case on DBS? What I mean by this is a few quotes with explanations as to why that would come from scum and not from town. I'm really trying to see where you are coming from, but I fail.
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@DBS truce? I feel like there is a lot of useless cross talk and pot calling the kettle black happening between us. Let's just talk to others for a while. I'm not trying to attack you and maybe the game will be more pleasant if we stop walling back and forth insisting we aren't answering each others questions. I'm not going to play the game to your whims and shouldn't expect you to play to mine.
Just for the record I have seen Rhand drunk post as both alignments. In fact it's rare for him to get through a game without drunk posting.
Silver and Shadow are giving me weird vibes. I need to read that closer when I'm not hurrying to work.
Vezok is technically present and still scummy. Compare his earlier excitement at Iso matching disinheritence to his claims he hasn't read it closely now.
I agree with the sentiment that Rhand's push on DBS looks contrived (at least for certainty) but I can't tell if it's scummy. I've seen him sive in like this as both alignments. Going to reread mistborn D1 and compare.
Terry where is your head at? I think you don't have strong town reads based on your comment after the wills, but what do you have?
These words give me chills. What I hear is that you are offended by the assertion of being caught, not by the assertion that you are a cultist.
Sorry, could you explain why you used the word cultist here? Did I miss something?
By this I refer to those who threaten the upstanding citizens of this town.
I must assume that they are merely cultists. The alternative - that they are not just ordinary men driven insane, but something altogether inhuman - looms horribly in my imagination, but I feel we must cling to the sane world of daylight wherever we can.
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you should read my scumgame before you make assumptions. I do not like to assert anything, as either alignment. I'm aggressive and arrogant at times, yes, but I don't like to make my alignment that obvious. as mentioned before in ZE(and I guess others will have to confirm it), playing transparently/honestly takes away the fun of guessing. if you want to lynch me simply because I make guessing work hard, then you're obviously missing out on the fun. I'm not interested in making this game more fun for you either. good day.
Do you believe it is a lack of entertainment that I called you out for?
Tell me what you think I find unwholesome in your words.
@dawn: it was lastwhisper, not grape. He said that sheeping is considered scummy on your home site. (406)
yes I did, but that has never stopped me from doing it
Shadow
What do you think of rhands drunk post?
Grape
u asked me why I voted rhand, his early vote reminded me of something, and honestly I've never been a fan of those, "your vote is *****, even if its not on me, I will vote you" votes, it reeks of a bad excuse to place a vote where it shouldn't be, especially when you shouldn't be attacking because of how I think.
Kami These words give me chills. What I hear is that you are offended by the assertion of being caught, not by the assertion that you are a cultist.
How exactly is she caught again? In all seriousness she will always get mad when you think you can read her, regardless of alignment... Words of advice, this is gunna be a mislynch, just saying... also was cultist a typo???
Rhand @Silver: if Shadow/Iso are town, I don’t think their chances to get killed at Night increase that drastically by getting confirmed. They already are high priority kills. + killing a confirmed town is a risk. For all we know there’s a doc in the game. Or a watcher.
So yeh, I did think about it.
Early game especially Iso would be amazing as confirmed town. such wine, much *facepalm...
Grape Vezok is technically present and still scummy. Compare his earlier excitement at Iso matching disinheritence to his claims he hasn't read it closely now. I do see what you are saying here... makes it feel like his AtE before was just a ruse to get out of being called scummy...
also you wont get anywhere attacking phraze, ur only option is to just vote her, and hope she gets lynched, or she dies during the night to scum... Ive played enough games with her to get a semi decent understanding of how she forms arguments as town, sorta, she still confuses me every once in a while, but never much in a scummy way, and again if I like at every scummy thing phraze does, I will never stop focusing her... #sorryNotsorry <3
@Silver: the reason I’m not sold that can’t be scum/scum is because it looks more like obligatory follow up on questions they asked, rather than actually caring. I don’t particularly think it’s more likely s/s than t/s, I’m just contending that it’s not a hard unalignment.
Mmm. You don't think that interaction tells us *anything* about those two players?
-_-
I think this interaction looks scummy from Atog specifically and weird from Vezok not replying until pushed to do so, but that’s not what you’re asking me. Or at least that’s not what I got from your questions.
Yeah, I meant anything about the relationship (or lack thereof) between the players.
It's very... strange that you think it's scummy for Atog to chase someone down to get a question answered, though. Usually it's viewed as a scum tell for someone to ask questions and not do any follow up/let people get away with not answering them.
@Last: Rhands drunk post doesn’t seem off to me; people drunk post as either alignment all the time.
@Silver: Yes, I think people being invested in getting answers to their questions is usually a good thing, the reason I don’t particularly care for how Atog did it is because it was a pretty innane question that even he admitted to not really mattering, which made it come off as a “if I don’t follow up on my questions I’ll look scummy” type of progression.
Sometimes a thread moves past the point of a question you’ve asked, and it ends up being better to drop it.
@Lastwhisper: could you substantiate your Rhand vote? I asked last page but it might have been buried, I guess.
was it you who asked? I accidently posted it for grape, in my large post
Oh, okay.
So you think he's scummy because he voted DBS for voting poorly? Is that a fair restatement?
Do scum vote people for voting poorly more often than town do, in your experience/opinion? @shadow: I mean, obviously it's sometimes better to drop it, but I don't really get the same feeling from his tone I guess. I dunno. It doesn't read like something he's doing because he feels obligated to do it. It's more like he really expected an answer and thought it was rude of Vezok to ignore him.
Like, I understand what you're saying it looks like, but I don't understand *why* you think that. Which bits of those posts read forced to you?
Grape
u asked me why I voted rhand, his early vote reminded me of something, and honestly I've never been a fan of those, "your vote is *****, even if its not on me, I will vote you" votes, it reeks of a bad excuse to place a vote where it shouldn't be, especially when you shouldn't be attacking because of how I think.
I mean I do like attacking people based on how they think. I've successfully caught scum doing it many times. And attacking the way they think consistently makes it more obvious when they have a mindset slip as opposed to looking at the game differently to me. It's not about knocking someone down, it's about forcing them to defend themselves so they become transparent. I personally love "your vote is bad, so I'm voting you" votes. But YMMV.
Anyway what is scummy about that sort of vote in general? And why do you think DBS is a bad place to place a vote? I agree but I want to hear you explain why?
Grape Vezok is technically present and still scummy. Compare his earlier excitement at Iso matching disinheritence to his claims he hasn't read it closely now. I do see what you are saying here... makes it feel like his AtE before was just a ruse to get out of being called scummy...
also you wont get anywhere attacking phraze, ur only option is to just vote her, and hope she gets lynched, or she dies during the night to scum... Ive played enough games with her to get a semi decent understanding of how she forms arguments as town, sorta, she still confuses me every once in a while, but never much in a scummy way, and again if I like at every scummy thing phraze does, I will never stop focusing her... #sorryNotsorry <3
The problem is I think she's town so I have no desire to vote her! And I'm not remembering the AtE you're pointing to for Vezok. Can you link the post.
Just an FYI 2 silver is less than 1 gold. 1 gold=3 Silver.
Still don't know what to make of this conversation between Shadow and Silver. Just feels off, but I can't find anything that sticks out to me as scummy for either of them...
@DBS truce? I feel like there is a lot of useless cross talk and pot calling the kettle black happening between us. Let's just talk to others for a while. I'm not trying to attack you and maybe the game will be more pleasant if we stop walling back and forth insisting we aren't answering each others questions. I'm not going to play the game to your whims and shouldn't expect you to play to mine.
Just for the record I have seen Rhand drunk post as both alignments. In fact it's rare for him to get through a game without drunk posting.
Silver and Shadow are giving me weird vibes. I need to read that closer when I'm not hurrying to work.
Vezok is technically present and still scummy. Compare his earlier excitement at Iso matching disinheritence to his claims he hasn't read it closely now.
I agree with the sentiment that Rhand's push on DBS looks contrived (at least for certainty) but I can't tell if it's scummy. I've seen him sive in like this as both alignments. Going to reread mistborn D1 and compare.
Terry where is your head at? I think you don't have strong town reads based on your comment after the wills, but what do you have?
I'm going to go back and re-read today or tomorrow and build a town-core that I will choose from for my will. I might sneak a red herring in there to give scum a false sense of security/hope.
Post #7 from Atog, gives me bad vibes. I saw a meme like that in one of my MU games and they were scum
Vezo's early focus on mechanics worry me, especially the part about revealing voter numbers
Atog claims an ability that affects the voting process and agrees with Vezo on being open with items and bidder numbers
I like DOTA rejecting the idea of mass claiming bidder numbers
Shin also rejects it and knows someone else's bidder number and town alignment but kind of pushes me for a BS reason of meta that I think he completely misremembered and not liking my RVS vote, then he kind of flip flops on DOTA rejecting the number claim. This is post #29 and it's not very coherent, pretty meta standard for Shin.
LW kind of latches on that RVS argument Shin was pushing on me
I get a vibe from Shin and LW that they are not S/S due to bickering on page 1
Grape's early ire towards the person that voted on the Auction Logs feels town to me, but I was also a bit concerned with the level of spec that leap took to make. I liked the rejection of the mass number claim, but at this point I think it's been said enough to lose some of its value as a tell. Also talk about a D3 massclaim also worries me
Some empty posts by Yurkin
Proph's anti-mechanic discussion comment is encouraging (#53)
Rhand's #64 feels good...
Shadow agrees with Rhand #64 about not planning mass claims
Rhands item spec list seems like useless spec, but really, I think if Rhand were scum and had any sort of communication with the scum team prior to this, he should have understood the auction process a bit better.
Vezo claims to be a mechanics minded player, but it feels like an excuse for scummy behavior
DOTA #86 mirrors a lot of my thoughts. Good to see.
Killjoy's #100 seems like too many questions and not enough constructive thought, maybe he's just warming up. We'll see
Vaimes first few posts seem acceptable, no red flags
Rhands' #111 is a good attack on LW.
I really liked Shin's tone on #123-127
Proph's #135 is a good stream of Consciousness
More empty posting from Yurkin
END of page 3. I still need to do the rest tomorrow, but for now I'm off of work.
Terry LW kind of latches on that RVS argument Shin was pushing on me
What?
also RE's slot and me are T/T imo, maybe? probably? well the point of the quarrel with shin, had nothing to do with alignments, its the fact that he likes to argue over the semantics of little things... like I cant even tell if he was serious with that argument? but hey, who knows?
tom how much of your choice to never try to appear townie is from wanting to bolster your scum game over time versus thinking it's your best way to win an individual game as town? Not really relevant, but curious.
@Terry when you're back from that breakdown it sounds like you're feeling good about Dota, Shin, and kind of Rhand. And pinged by Vezok, Wisp, and to a lesser extent Yurkin and KJ. Is that roughly fair? If so can you go into more on what you like about Dota. Is it just the mind meld?
Can you talk about you torn feelings about my setup spec? My railing against the logs requires heavy spec so I'm a bit confused how you can draw town feelings from it while being worried because it depends on the speculation.
@vezok: Okay, but that doesn't answer my question. Did it not feel like I was trying to solve the game, before? Please cite posts that indicated this to you.
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@Silver: Ugh, maybe tom is right about you. Let me off the hook for what? Also, I believe this game does not have Daychat.
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@Rhand: I claimed no such thing.
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@dawn: I don't think being scum drives Rhand to drink, if that's what you're asking. Also, I disagree that making the town's job harder as town is fun, as it only makes the game more difficult and frustrating for other townies. I would recommend you adjust that perspective of yours, if that's sincerely what you believe. Being cryptic is only fun for the person being cryptic, which means that people are more likely to mislynch you on Day 1 out of aggravation than anything, which is not conducive to your win condition or becoming a better player.
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@RE: Thanks for answering my question; can you substantiate that a little more for me, though?
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I like Grape's observation regarding vezok's approach to me as it pertains to Disinheiritance. If anything, that should be the final nail in the coffin for Vezok.
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FWIW I immediately interpreted Kamikaze's "cultist" comment as a flavorful way of saying "scum".
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@Silver: Ugh, maybe tom is right about you. Let me off the hook for what? Also, I believe this game does not have Daychat.
The whole walking me through Atog's "talking to a partner" mindset, because at this point I just want anyone to explain that in a way that makes sense to me.
As far as scum not having day chat, I guess that's possible, but like. It still just doesn't read like a partner interaction to me.
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Mm. Okay. I asked because you said he brought up a good point against Vezok and that didn't seem to mesh with you believing they're scum together. I guess you're reading it as a bus, then? It /is/ a strange progression on Grape's part, but I'm not actually worried about Grape, I'm worried about /you/ because I don't fully understand the reasoning you're using to tie the three of them together. Is this just a "they're both scum, therefore it's a bus" thing?
Like, I have my own read on the Grape/Vezok/Atog triangle, which I'm not hiding very well even if I haven't come right out and said it yet. I'm not asking to be persuaded or because I didn't read your previous posts. I'm asking because I don't really understand the headspace those opinions came from.
Mm. Okay. I asked because you said he brought up a good point against Vezok and that didn't seem to mesh with you believing they're scum together. I guess you're reading it as a bus, then? It /is/ a strange progression on Grape's part, but I'm not actually worried about Grape, I'm worried about /you/ because I don't fully understand the reasoning you're using to tie the three of them together. Is this just a "they're both scum, therefore it's a bus" thing?
Like, I have my own read on the Grape/Vezok/Atog triangle, which I'm not hiding very well even if I haven't come right out and said it yet. I'm not asking to be persuaded or because I didn't read your previous posts. I'm asking because I don't really understand the headspace those opinions came from.
I mean, all three of them have had bizarre interactions and independent scum moments. It just works out that way - they're scum of their own accords, and they're scum together.
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2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Can see the tiering that proph talked about in the togs posts on this page (5).
I'm less sure why scumtogs wouldn't do that but it does give me a frame for what he's doing and it makes a bit more sense i guess.
See Terrys claim now. Role doesn't do much for me alignment wise but I like the way he claimed.
Fake edit: more or less full agreement with Kami post about it>vezoks reaction
Terry town
@everyone does Grape always talk like he belongs to town? The last time he did that he was scum lel
This is fake
This whole gwendolly flurry is super pockety and theatrical.
Oh ***** this is vezok omgusing iso. It *is* absolute twaddle.
You'd think he'd read iso in this game instead of in 3 others since he clearly hasn't lol
Looks like he decided on that read and then went to justify it.
That's tight the m it ual town read cross vote death spiral.
I should look at why you're scum reading me again. I'd just filed it under "Iso always scum reads me" and did not look into it much. Largely stemmed from you seeing a double standard in me pushing against Vezok's claim idea, while proposing a D3 claim myself. Was that the gist of it?
@Tom welcome to the cool kids club for making the same Vezok read. Come join the wagon!
As for Iso I can't recall ever playing with scum!Iso. I was ignoring it because I had bigger fish to fry and figured he was town because his Vezok push has been good and Vezok's OMGUS has been so bad. But now I'm curious, and can't just write him off as always wrong about me. He's probably still town, but I should take a look.
Like dawn grilling grapefruit in #332 But post ends with shadow vote?
Honestly a lot of these dawn posts im getting more associative reads than anything that actually seems AI…
Will compile them eventually/if I think it's relevant
Liking togs thoughts on last/kj. though… they both seem town to me so easy thing for scum to talk about or whatever.
Still like it
My knee-jerk reaction to Iso's suspicion is standard for me, both as town or scum. It's a lot easier to suspect someone who votes for you, as you know he is for town so it's easier to analyse if it's agenda driven or not.
This…
I mean that does explain his iso push in a way but
Like he didn't really look at agenda he made comparisons
And this is where I replaced in
Think I'll work on a rainbow wall then not post it yet
I do. His Lastwhisper read doesn't look real. It's like, one of those fake reads that scum gives to town players they don't want to bother giving real reads on. At the time he made it Lastwhisper had done stone cold nothing except RVS banter... and then he tried to justify it later, which means it probably wasn't an intentionally fake read by town!KJ. Like, I don't know LW's meta but neither does KJ, supposedly, and it's possible KJ is just, uhm, naive? but he's played with tom and stuff, so. Yeah.
Him saying there's 1 scum in you/Atog I don't necessarily agree with but I could see town!KJ assuming that one of his attackers is scum if he doesn't understand why he's being voted... but that doesn't really jive with him saying that your progression on him feels real, either, because that would mean he understands why you're voting him.
It could be that he's scum and he knew he should take a position there but knew you were both town (*cough* or you're his partner and he didn't want to bus you, *cough*) so he sort of... awkwardly sided with you to try to pocket you, or the other thing. But he could also just be town, he was almost mislynched in STMU4 for the same sorts of things. I'm fencesitting, but I'd like to see him type more words because nine posts isn't much to go on and I have Other Things(tm) to do.
Hey silver how is it a strange progression on my part?
Becaaaaause.... it just is. It seemed like you were trying to defend him and then went full 180 when that wasn't working, and I have this impression that you don't really want to lynch him. You're very interested in what other people think about him but not in a way that seems like you're scum reading him. Like, I didn't even know you were scumreading him until I iso'd you.
At least, that's my immediate feeling. Normally I'd go back to double check I'm not misremembering but I should have been in bed like 3 hours ago.
I mean, all three of them have had bizarre interactions and independent scum moments. It just works out that way - they're scum of their own accords, and they're scum together.
Yes, they've had bizarre interactions, but I still don't understand what you think makes their bizarre interactions necessarily "awkward interactions between scum mates" as opposed to... anything else, like just Vezok scum, or Vezok/Grape/not Atog, etcetera etcetera.
Like. Are you just scum reading anything that sticks out to you and isn't directly contradicted by something else?
@Vezok: Could you substantiate your Togs vote a bit better? You said it was for the post he made immediately before your vote but not much more* than that. Which parts of that post convinced you he's scum?
So on KJ he has some knowledge of LW. They were both town in Zero Escape. And Wisp in Zero Escape was intense. He was widely scum read until Az went to bat for him basically saying that Wisp's intense righteous indignation was too real to be faked. And that's way when I realized that KJ had worded it as sincere I had to reevaluate a bit. Sincere is a theoretically real way to read Wisp, and had worked in the game he knew. But I still maintain that calling him casual for what he'd posted to the point that KJ made that read. His reaction to Shin was strong and focused in a way LW often wasn't in ZE (he notoriously missed a lot of details). So yeah I'm in agreement that the read looks forced. Not 100% fake but forced.
Your take on his reaction to me and atog pushing him is really interesting. It's in line with what I was thinking but more thorough. I'm going to take a closer look at it later.
On Vezok; yes I pivoted on a dime. But that Iso vote and meta dive was just not townie at all. As for seeming like I'm not really pushing it *shrug* he's been pretty absent since it happened and it's not been much RL time. Like I still kind of believe my previous tone read on his proposals, but that vote just looks so fake.
Oh ***** this is vezok omgusing iso. It *is* absolute twaddle.
You'd think he'd read iso in this game instead of in 3 others since he clearly hasn't lol
Looks like he decided on that read and then went to justify it.
That's tight the m it ual town read cross vote death spiral.
I should look at why you're scum reading me again. I'd just filed it under "Iso always scum reads me" and did not look into it much. Largely stemmed from you seeing a double standard in me pushing against Vezok's claim idea, while proposing a D3 claim myself. Was that the gist of it?
Well, that was part of it, though I clarified further reasons later on. I guess I at least owe it to you to attempt to look over your posts and remind myself why I think you're scum, but that's not going to happen tonight.
I mean, all three of them have had bizarre interactions and independent scum moments. It just works out that way - they're scum of their own accords, and they're scum together.
Yes, they've had bizarre interactions, but I still don't understand what you think makes their bizarre interactions necessarily "awkward interactions between scum mates" as opposed to... anything else, like just Vezok scum, or Vezok/Grape/not Atog, etcetera etcetera.
Like. Are you just scum reading anything that sticks out to you and isn't directly contradicted by something else?
I'm chortling as I read this post because this is how it reads to me: "Do you have any reason to be scum reading these scum reads other than the reasons you've already presented? I mean, I know they haven't been refuted, yet, but still - stop pestering my buddies? Please?"
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2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Anyway, can we get back to lynching Vezok? What with the whole "Iso is scum because look at how similar his posts are to Disinheiritance which I haven't actually read but instead decided to cherrypick posts that resemble nothing remotely close to how his posts are reading in this game, except I still haven't read the game but Iso is scum because meta" and all.
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2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Iso: I don't think you were doing a good job solving the game earlier. Mostly cause you think I'm scum and I know I'm not, but also because the questions from before didn't seem too relevant. The efforts after you came back seem different, maybe because you dropped the gimmick.
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2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Gah. Ok so hopefully I'll be able to do something more in depth later this week. Answering questions now.
@Proph: I actually just forgot the actual wording I used. My townread on Last was a general tonal read of sincerity. In describing that I used the word casual. Apperently Grape disagrees, and that's how that whole thing started.
@Shadow: I think I might want to do something for Grape. I dislike his whole argument that my stance on Last (and him not agreeing with it) makes me scum somehow. It won't be Zero Escape level crazy because that came from my KNOWING that Osie was scum. I'm not as sure about Grape. I wanna explore. So something will probably happen.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Iso I'll try to look through your posts later as well. I went down a rabbit hole when I got home from work. Very little mafia'ing being done. And yeah I know you were partially joking but you are a high town read of mine and I don't really care to try and correct your incorrect read of me. I'd rather lynch scum.
@KJ I have to admit being corrected to realize you used the word sincere rocks my scum read on you a bit off kilter, but I just don't see how it's relaxed. LW in the best possible way is never chill. He's a bit of a tightly wound spring and that's what I see in his opening. Like if you had said sincere and agendaless I could get behind your read.
Anyway as for how that makes you scum: if my take is correct and LW cannot be described accurately as relaxed it shows a mindset slip from you. You as scum felt he was being townie in the early game for his banter with Shin. That's a fair read to make and a lot of people did. But when challenged on it you used language that didn't describe his behavior or (and I strongly believe this) his town behavior in ZE. You used generic language that fits most town reads to cover the fakeness of your read but misapplied it to this player.
Since you seemed confused about why my disagreement on how to read LW makes you scum I hope that clears it up. Basically I think casual is so far removed from describing his behavior that a genuine townie who's only experience with LW was ZE wouldn't dream of using those words to describe him.
Also excited to see what happens since odds are it's not a day vig since the tommy gun exists.
I mean, all three of them have had bizarre interactions and independent scum moments. It just works out that way - they're scum of their own accords, and they're scum together.
Yes, they've had bizarre interactions, but I still don't understand what you think makes their bizarre interactions necessarily "awkward interactions between scum mates" as opposed to... anything else, like just Vezok scum, or Vezok/Grape/not Atog, etcetera etcetera.
Like. Are you just scum reading anything that sticks out to you and isn't directly contradicted by something else?
I'm chortling as I read this post because this is how it reads to me: "Do you have any reason to be scum reading these scum reads other than the reasons you've already presented? I mean, I know they haven't been refuted, yet, but still - stop pestering my buddies? Please?"
I love it.
That... that isn't at all what I said, even leaving aside the bits where you assume I'm scum. At this point I can only assume you're deliberately misinterpreting me for some reason, because this *really* isn't a terribly difficult concept. If merely questioning your narrative makes me scummy, I'll gladly accept the mislynch to make sure you can't lead us off a cliff.
Because I don't agree with some of your conclusions, and in trying to reconcile my conclusions with yours I got a load of nonsense and this ridiculous piece of sophistry.
Whatever, I guess. Lynching Vezok is fine but I don't feel any particular desire to join the wagon right now.
I mean, are you asking me to hold your hand and walk you through it? Because you haven't really highlighted for me what part of my assessment of the game state you disagree with, which would make it infinitely easier for me to walk you through it [presuming you are town] and correct your view, and I would certainly feel more inclined to even bother attempting to do so. Giving me a broad "well maybe it isn't that way?" is just entirely too vague. I'm not trying to be condescending, but this *really* isn't a terribly difficult concept.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@silver: I'm voting for atog because he is exhibiting classic scum behaviour of lurking until he's pressured and then doing nothing of value. Couple that with lurking being scum meta on MAL.
I still haven't read disinheritence as I have stuff to do this week as it's my birthday. I'll try to do it on Thursday.
Right now I think tog has a higher chance of being scum than Iso.
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Be grateful, always."
Honestly that's part of the wanting to wait. Think he'll show his alignment more later (if he hasn't replaced out by then lol)
Haven't really gathered thoughts yet to figure that out
Whisper/iso, side of you/proph
No strong scumreads
why's that funny?
yeah I thought this too but it's exactly the sort of thing I've pushed town dawn for
I don't like either side of dawn vs rhand though
Rhand is pushing way too hard for DBS with no good reason, with the exception of the "side comment", but I can still see what town DBS was trying to say.
DBS pushing the drunk posting thing is simply illogical from both alignments. Drunk posting happens as both alignments. For me, it's directly correlated with how engaged I am in the game.
@Rhand: Can you outline a case on DBS? What I mean by this is a few quotes with explanations as to why that would come from scum and not from town. I'm really trying to see where you are coming from, but I fail.
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Just for the record I have seen Rhand drunk post as both alignments. In fact it's rare for him to get through a game without drunk posting.
Silver and Shadow are giving me weird vibes. I need to read that closer when I'm not hurrying to work.
Vezok is technically present and still scummy. Compare his earlier excitement at Iso matching disinheritence to his claims he hasn't read it closely now.
I agree with the sentiment that Rhand's push on DBS looks contrived (at least for certainty) but I can't tell if it's scummy. I've seen him sive in like this as both alignments. Going to reread mistborn D1 and compare.
Terry where is your head at? I think you don't have strong town reads based on your comment after the wills, but what do you have?
I must assume that they are merely cultists. The alternative - that they are not just ordinary men driven insane, but something altogether inhuman - looms horribly in my imagination, but I feel we must cling to the sane world of daylight wherever we can.
Do you believe it is a lack of entertainment that I called you out for?
Tell me what you think I find unwholesome in your words.
Shadow
What do you think of rhands drunk post?
Grape
u asked me why I voted rhand, his early vote reminded me of something, and honestly I've never been a fan of those, "your vote is *****, even if its not on me, I will vote you" votes, it reeks of a bad excuse to place a vote where it shouldn't be, especially when you shouldn't be attacking because of how I think.
Kami
These words give me chills. What I hear is that you are offended by the assertion of being caught, not by the assertion that you are a cultist.
How exactly is she caught again? In all seriousness she will always get mad when you think you can read her, regardless of alignment... Words of advice, this is gunna be a mislynch, just saying... also was cultist a typo???
Rhand
@Silver: if Shadow/Iso are town, I don’t think their chances to get killed at Night increase that drastically by getting confirmed. They already are high priority kills. + killing a confirmed town is a risk. For all we know there’s a doc in the game. Or a watcher.
So yeh, I did think about it.
Early game especially Iso would be amazing as confirmed town. such wine, much *facepalm...
Grape
Vezok is technically present and still scummy. Compare his earlier excitement at Iso matching disinheritence to his claims he hasn't read it closely now. I do see what you are saying here... makes it feel like his AtE before was just a ruse to get out of being called scummy...
also you wont get anywhere attacking phraze, ur only option is to just vote her, and hope she gets lynched, or she dies during the night to scum... Ive played enough games with her to get a semi decent understanding of how she forms arguments as town, sorta, she still confuses me every once in a while, but never much in a scummy way, and again if I like at every scummy thing phraze does, I will never stop focusing her... #sorryNotsorry <3
It's very... strange that you think it's scummy for Atog to chase someone down to get a question answered, though. Usually it's viewed as a scum tell for someone to ask questions and not do any follow up/let people get away with not answering them.
Doubt it would work like a mafia cult though
@Lastwhisper: could you substantiate your Rhand vote? I asked last page but it might have been buried, I guess.
@Silver: Yes, I think people being invested in getting answers to their questions is usually a good thing, the reason I don’t particularly care for how Atog did it is because it was a pretty innane question that even he admitted to not really mattering, which made it come off as a “if I don’t follow up on my questions I’ll look scummy” type of progression.
Sometimes a thread moves past the point of a question you’ve asked, and it ends up being better to drop it.
So you think he's scummy because he voted DBS for voting poorly? Is that a fair restatement?
Do scum vote people for voting poorly more often than town do, in your experience/opinion?
@shadow: I mean, obviously it's sometimes better to drop it, but I don't really get the same feeling from his tone I guess. I dunno. It doesn't read like something he's doing because he feels obligated to do it. It's more like he really expected an answer and thought it was rude of Vezok to ignore him.
Like, I understand what you're saying it looks like, but I don't understand *why* you think that. Which bits of those posts read forced to you?
I mean I do like attacking people based on how they think. I've successfully caught scum doing it many times. And attacking the way they think consistently makes it more obvious when they have a mindset slip as opposed to looking at the game differently to me. It's not about knocking someone down, it's about forcing them to defend themselves so they become transparent. I personally love "your vote is bad, so I'm voting you" votes. But YMMV.
Anyway what is scummy about that sort of vote in general? And why do you think DBS is a bad place to place a vote? I agree but I want to hear you explain why?
The problem is I think she's town so I have no desire to vote her! And I'm not remembering the AtE you're pointing to for Vezok. Can you link the post.
Still don't know what to make of this conversation between Shadow and Silver. Just feels off, but I can't find anything that sticks out to me as scummy for either of them...
A reason to be towny
Post #7 from Atog, gives me bad vibes. I saw a meme like that in one of my MU games and they were scum
Vezo's early focus on mechanics worry me, especially the part about revealing voter numbers
Atog claims an ability that affects the voting process and agrees with Vezo on being open with items and bidder numbers
I like DOTA rejecting the idea of mass claiming bidder numbers
Shin also rejects it and knows someone else's bidder number and town alignment but kind of pushes me for a BS reason of meta that I think he completely misremembered and not liking my RVS vote, then he kind of flip flops on DOTA rejecting the number claim. This is post #29 and it's not very coherent, pretty meta standard for Shin.
LW kind of latches on that RVS argument Shin was pushing on me
I get a vibe from Shin and LW that they are not S/S due to bickering on page 1
Grape's early ire towards the person that voted on the Auction Logs feels town to me, but I was also a bit concerned with the level of spec that leap took to make. I liked the rejection of the mass number claim, but at this point I think it's been said enough to lose some of its value as a tell. Also talk about a D3 massclaim also worries me
Some empty posts by Yurkin
Proph's anti-mechanic discussion comment is encouraging (#53)
Rhand's #64 feels good...
Shadow agrees with Rhand #64 about not planning mass claims
Rhands item spec list seems like useless spec, but really, I think if Rhand were scum and had any sort of communication with the scum team prior to this, he should have understood the auction process a bit better.
Vezo claims to be a mechanics minded player, but it feels like an excuse for scummy behavior
DOTA #86 mirrors a lot of my thoughts. Good to see.
Killjoy's #100 seems like too many questions and not enough constructive thought, maybe he's just warming up. We'll see
Vaimes first few posts seem acceptable, no red flags
Rhands' #111 is a good attack on LW.
I really liked Shin's tone on #123-127
Proph's #135 is a good stream of Consciousness
More empty posting from Yurkin
END of page 3. I still need to do the rest tomorrow, but for now I'm off of work.
What did you get out of that iioa?
LW kind of latches on that RVS argument Shin was pushing on me
What?
also RE's slot and me are T/T imo, maybe? probably? well the point of the quarrel with shin, had nothing to do with alignments, its the fact that he likes to argue over the semantics of little things... like I cant even tell if he was serious with that argument? but hey, who knows?
tom how much of your choice to never try to appear townie is from wanting to bolster your scum game over time versus thinking it's your best way to win an individual game as town? Not really relevant, but curious.
@Terry when you're back from that breakdown it sounds like you're feeling good about Dota, Shin, and kind of Rhand. And pinged by Vezok, Wisp, and to a lesser extent Yurkin and KJ. Is that roughly fair? If so can you go into more on what you like about Dota. Is it just the mind meld?
Can you talk about you torn feelings about my setup spec? My railing against the logs requires heavy spec so I'm a bit confused how you can draw town feelings from it while being worried because it depends on the speculation.
I'm not naturally towny, so it's faked regardless.
Also I plan to skate by on reputation and charisma for awhile and figure it out later. Ill be towny then
-
@Silver: Ugh, maybe tom is right about you. Let me off the hook for what? Also, I believe this game does not have Daychat.
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@Rhand: I claimed no such thing.
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@dawn: I don't think being scum drives Rhand to drink, if that's what you're asking. Also, I disagree that making the town's job harder as town is fun, as it only makes the game more difficult and frustrating for other townies. I would recommend you adjust that perspective of yours, if that's sincerely what you believe. Being cryptic is only fun for the person being cryptic, which means that people are more likely to mislynch you on Day 1 out of aggravation than anything, which is not conducive to your win condition or becoming a better player.
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@RE: Thanks for answering my question; can you substantiate that a little more for me, though?
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I like Grape's observation regarding vezok's approach to me as it pertains to Disinheiritance. If anything, that should be the final nail in the coffin for Vezok.
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FWIW I immediately interpreted Kamikaze's "cultist" comment as a flavorful way of saying "scum".
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
As far as scum not having day chat, I guess that's possible, but like. It still just doesn't read like a partner interaction to me.
How do you feel about Grape right now?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Vezok/grape/togs/silver ?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Iso have you ever town read me? I feel like you never do. But I can't remember your read on me in ZE.
Silver do you have thoughts on KJ?
Like, I have my own read on the Grape/Vezok/Atog triangle, which I'm not hiding very well even if I haven't come right out and said it yet. I'm not asking to be persuaded or because I didn't read your previous posts. I'm asking because I don't really understand the headspace those opinions came from.
In ZE, I pushed hard against your mislynch on Day 1. I ended up voting you but only because we needed a lynch.
I mean, all three of them have had bizarre interactions and independent scum moments. It just works out that way - they're scum of their own accords, and they're scum together.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm less sure why scumtogs wouldn't do that but it does give me a frame for what he's doing and it makes a bit more sense i guess.
See Terrys claim now. Role doesn't do much for me alignment wise but I like the way he claimed.
Fake edit: more or less full agreement with Kami post about it>vezoks reaction
Terry town
This is fake
This whole gwendolly flurry is super pockety and theatrical.
Oh ***** this is vezok omgusing iso. It *is* absolute twaddle.
You'd think he'd read iso in this game instead of in 3 others since he clearly hasn't lol
Looks like he decided on that read and then went to justify it.
I should look at why you're scum reading me again. I'd just filed it under "Iso always scum reads me" and did not look into it much. Largely stemmed from you seeing a double standard in me pushing against Vezok's claim idea, while proposing a D3 claim myself. Was that the gist of it?
Why ignore it?
Clearly not used to this new phone yet >_>
@Tom welcome to the cool kids club for making the same Vezok read. Come join the wagon!
As for Iso I can't recall ever playing with scum!Iso. I was ignoring it because I had bigger fish to fry and figured he was town because his Vezok push has been good and Vezok's OMGUS has been so bad. But now I'm curious, and can't just write him off as always wrong about me. He's probably still town, but I should take a look.
Like dawn grilling grapefruit in #332 But post ends with shadow vote?
Honestly a lot of these dawn posts im getting more associative reads than anything that actually seems AI…
Will compile them eventually/if I think it's relevant
Liking togs thoughts on last/kj. though… they both seem town to me so easy thing for scum to talk about or whatever.
Still like it
This…
I mean that does explain his iso push in a way but
Like he didn't really look at agenda he made comparisons
And this is where I replaced in
Think I'll work on a rainbow wall then not post it yet
vote gwendolly
vote wuffles
Right
Him saying there's 1 scum in you/Atog I don't necessarily agree with but I could see town!KJ assuming that one of his attackers is scum if he doesn't understand why he's being voted... but that doesn't really jive with him saying that your progression on him feels real, either, because that would mean he understands why you're voting him.
It could be that he's scum and he knew he should take a position there but knew you were both town (*cough* or you're his partner and he didn't want to bus you, *cough*) so he sort of... awkwardly sided with you to try to pocket you, or the other thing. But he could also just be town, he was almost mislynched in STMU4 for the same sorts of things. I'm fencesitting, but I'd like to see him type more words because nine posts isn't much to go on and I have Other Things(tm) to do.
Becaaaaause.... it just is. It seemed like you were trying to defend him and then went full 180 when that wasn't working, and I have this impression that you don't really want to lynch him. You're very interested in what other people think about him but not in a way that seems like you're scum reading him. Like, I didn't even know you were scumreading him until I iso'd you.
At least, that's my immediate feeling. Normally I'd go back to double check I'm not misremembering but I should have been in bed like 3 hours ago.
Yes, they've had bizarre interactions, but I still don't understand what you think makes their bizarre interactions necessarily "awkward interactions between scum mates" as opposed to... anything else, like just Vezok scum, or Vezok/Grape/not Atog, etcetera etcetera.
Like. Are you just scum reading anything that sticks out to you and isn't directly contradicted by something else?
So on KJ he has some knowledge of LW. They were both town in Zero Escape. And Wisp in Zero Escape was intense. He was widely scum read until Az went to bat for him basically saying that Wisp's intense righteous indignation was too real to be faked. And that's way when I realized that KJ had worded it as sincere I had to reevaluate a bit. Sincere is a theoretically real way to read Wisp, and had worked in the game he knew. But I still maintain that calling him casual for what he'd posted to the point that KJ made that read. His reaction to Shin was strong and focused in a way LW often wasn't in ZE (he notoriously missed a lot of details). So yeah I'm in agreement that the read looks forced. Not 100% fake but forced.
Your take on his reaction to me and atog pushing him is really interesting. It's in line with what I was thinking but more thorough. I'm going to take a closer look at it later.
On Vezok; yes I pivoted on a dime. But that Iso vote and meta dive was just not townie at all. As for seeming like I'm not really pushing it *shrug* he's been pretty absent since it happened and it's not been much RL time. Like I still kind of believe my previous tone read on his proposals, but that vote just looks so fake.
THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING
Well, that was part of it, though I clarified further reasons later on. I guess I at least owe it to you to attempt to look over your posts and remind myself why I think you're scum, but that's not going to happen tonight.
pfftfft
>bigger fish to fry than Iso
pffffftffffft
I'm chortling as I read this post because this is how it reads to me: "Do you have any reason to be scum reading these scum reads other than the reasons you've already presented? I mean, I know they haven't been refuted, yet, but still - stop pestering my buddies? Please?"
I love it.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Proph: I actually just forgot the actual wording I used. My townread on Last was a general tonal read of sincerity. In describing that I used the word casual. Apperently Grape disagrees, and that's how that whole thing started.
@Shadow: I think I might want to do something for Grape. I dislike his whole argument that my stance on Last (and him not agreeing with it) makes me scum somehow. It won't be Zero Escape level crazy because that came from my KNOWING that Osie was scum. I'm not as sure about Grape. I wanna explore. So something will probably happen.
@KJ I have to admit being corrected to realize you used the word sincere rocks my scum read on you a bit off kilter, but I just don't see how it's relaxed. LW in the best possible way is never chill. He's a bit of a tightly wound spring and that's what I see in his opening. Like if you had said sincere and agendaless I could get behind your read.
Anyway as for how that makes you scum: if my take is correct and LW cannot be described accurately as relaxed it shows a mindset slip from you. You as scum felt he was being townie in the early game for his banter with Shin. That's a fair read to make and a lot of people did. But when challenged on it you used language that didn't describe his behavior or (and I strongly believe this) his town behavior in ZE. You used generic language that fits most town reads to cover the fakeness of your read but misapplied it to this player.
Since you seemed confused about why my disagreement on how to read LW makes you scum I hope that clears it up. Basically I think casual is so far removed from describing his behavior that a genuine townie who's only experience with LW was ZE wouldn't dream of using those words to describe him.
Also excited to see what happens since odds are it's not a day vig since the tommy gun exists.
Because I don't agree with some of your conclusions, and in trying to reconcile my conclusions with yours I got a load of nonsense and this ridiculous piece of sophistry.
Whatever, I guess. Lynching Vezok is fine but I don't feel any particular desire to join the wagon right now.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I still haven't read disinheritence as I have stuff to do this week as it's my birthday. I'll try to do it on Thursday.
Right now I think tog has a higher chance of being scum than Iso.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread