whether your reads 'fit nicely' into people's ears or not isn't indicative of whether you're town, showing us your mindset is. I can't tell if you're deliberately shielding your mindset or not, since you're going for the "we read differently" angle, so I'm not voting you, nor will I be baited to.
Also I'm not really going for this at all. It may be ending up there but if it is it's not by design. I'm trying to get you to vote me because most of your posts are you implying that you think I'm scum. And you're still not voting me. Despite voting other people for doing things explicitly for things you've talked about me doing. And I can't wrap my head around why. I'm not trying to bait you, I'm trying to understand your mindset. You've explained the sheeping one now, but the vote hopping you haven't.
Also I completely agree with 514. And am utterly confused as to why you're directing it at me. Well apart from me thinking that what I think matters, because I do think that. I'm very arrogant that way.
@Iso I still want to lynch Vezok today, who would you want to drink the potion in that world, knowing you have to decide before Vezok flips?
OK I'm just going to write this up because I absolutely need a stepping stone to get my head back into this game and I think this can do it.
Prophylaxis: best town
KamikazeArchon: Right now I have him penned down as someone whose posts I enjoy reading, and while I do not recall playing with scum!Kami other than the shipshow that was Final Fantasy Mafia I can tell that he is really into the game. Let's see here.
One thing that I notice when reading his posts is that he's fairly mechanics focused, which is fine for a game this complex, but obviously I want to see this backed up with actionable content. He townreads Rhand and I early, then he speculates about the auction house.
Quote from KamikazeArchon »
But let us say you're right and that there is nothing fruitful here; what, then, would you discuss? Have you yet spotted anything suspicious in our fellow citizens? If not, how do you propose to find it?
Like this question from KA; it's easy to fake, sure, but it shows evidence of a solving mindset. Follow up question to JoeTerry means that he actually cares about his question being answered.
Quote from KamikazeArchon »
A few of us spoke much more than the rest. I did my best to follow along, though it was at time difficult. One of them took the moniker of Shinichi, and I had read of that name before - in a fanciful tale, regarding the strange case of a physician with unusual fighting talents. The character in that story had carried ill intent, so I thought perhaps I could see some resemblance here. On the contrary, while the rambling style was the same, there was something about the content that made me feel this one was more trustworthy. Perhaps it was because, lighting on so many topics, the speaker in this case at least presented an opinion, where the malignant and ill-fated doctor in the story had been full of questions with no answer, and lacking in definite positions.
Feels like this meta read has nuance backed up behind it, which I like. Like, I feel that if KA was scum he could make a meta comparison to the Micro in which Shinichi was scum and use it to try and push a mislynch on Shinichi but this read kind of feels guileless and has solid reasoning behind it.
Something about this... didn't seem right. Reading back through my notes, I found the discrepancy; something slight yet nagging.
Grapefruit, in these words:
Town: Shin, Rhand, Proph, Terry, and maybe Iso isn't a bad starting point.
You propose a list of those who you find most honest and trustworthy. Yet earlier you had mentioned myself positively more than once. Why the omission? Also, you are defending vezok against another's attack - but have omitted him either.
Further, you have cast a vote against Killjoy yet all your words speak of suspicion of others, notably of Lastwhisper.
Why all these inconsistencies?
This is a really good observation/line of questioning from KA. If KA was scum I feel like this line of questioning on Grapefruit would read a lot more opportunistic, but to me it feels like he's actually being inquisitive. Like, if he's scum.. where is the agenda here?
dawningbluesky, those words of mine that you quoted are the most obvious and least in-depth of my comments. Why is it those that instill trust, and not the rest?
What motive does he has to post this as scum? Wouldn't he be fine with accepting townreads on him?
So yeah, I'm a fan of how KA has been playing and I feel like he's working to solve. My question to KA is - who do you think is scum? You voted Cyan prior to him coming back - what do you think of his posts as of right now? I noticed that you are scumreading vezok based off of his "Terry is town" claim - what do you think of him?
----
RE1031: As I mentioned before, I liked Shinichi's play before he replaced out. I don't think he claims to have mechanical knowledge of a townie in his first post. @Rhand - the reason why I pointed scumhunting questions to Shinichi was because I didn't catch that upon first read. I read his posts and thought they were questionable but then I read them a second time and then I caught him claiming mechanical knowledge.
Just some posts that I found townie from Shin:
Quote from Shinichi »
Ur a good player but so fustrating to read into i swear. Letting other people handle the rest of the work doesnt seem like something a town player would suggest. What do you atleast think of the new players that you havent seen nor played with before.
Don't think he talks about how frustrating it is to read Vaimes if Shin is scum.
Also thinking about it, Togs/Shin unaligned pairs? If Togs and Shinichi were scum together Shinichi wouldn't have a difficult time typing out his name?
Quote from Shinichi »
-Holy***** i aint calling him ATo i didnt realize that was togs -.-
Like I feel he would know if they were scum together.
Quote from Shinichi »
Most questions can be telling, like I ask alot of questions to understand peoples mindsets and to low key catch people in slips problem is i do this reagardless of my alignment XD. Anyways my point is the way a question is asked and the reasons why its asked can say alot aobut someones alignment.
Also am a fan of 266, feels like he's actually thinking deeply about the gamestate in a way that I don't think comes from Shinichi scum.
As for RE, I've been liking her catchup thus far and I like how she's thinking along the same lines as me WRT Cyan.
----
Iso: Main thing I want to see from Iso is if his roleplay stuff makes his posts specifically designed to look good or if what he is saying are actually his real, genuine thoughts.
He's been voting vezok and also suspecting Grapefruit/Togs. One thing that I'm interested in is that he seems to be.. pretty lenient towards shadow? Like I've pressured shadow a couple of times and Iso is kind of stepping up to bat for him. This is an interaction worth noting down the line I feel.
Also I'm still confused as to why Iso thought people were pressuring Shinichi? I don't recall pressure on Shinichi at all, I'll reread to double check but it's just something I don't recall.
I do like his post 202, feels like he's shooting pretty inquisitive/thoughtful questions to a fair number of people.
He has been very consistent about pressuring Togs/Grape/vezok and believing that all three are scum. I want to read those three myself before I come to a conclusion on this. I do like how he is engaging with his scumreads though, and questioning them, rather than just leaving them by the wayside.
So I like where Iso's head is at and what he's doing, but I feel like I'll have a better pulse on reading him later on in the game. I'm a little worried that he came into the game deciding to pressure vezok/Grape/Togs and then.. has static reads after all of that but he has been trying to engage with them. Iso, what are your thoughts on me and DoTA?
----
shadowlancerx: I think he's scum/worthy of more pressure, Iso likes what he's seeing but believes that he hasn't gotten into the game yet.
The thing that's pinging me here is that if you look at the first couple of posts in his ISO, he has three questions:
Quote from shadowlancerx »
@Grapefruit: Talk to me about your thought process; you dislike vezok’s plan, but here you are planning a mass claim for day three. How is this especially different in the grand scheme of things?
Quote from shadowlancerx »
@Dawning: What do you think of Kami’s gimmick so far?
Quote from shadowlancerx »
@Vaimes: Since you mentioned Roleplaying, what specifically do you think of Kami so far?
Quote from shadowlancerx »
Can you post a reads list? Having enough town reads to start PoE reading people this early in the game seems baffling to me.
Like... these are questions, but dawning has a good point where she said that he's asking others for things but not really providing much of his own input. Plus, his questions aren't really that great? It's just "what do you think of X" "post a reads list" which I am not really sure helps him solve.
Quote from shadowlancerx »
Other than that there’s no one I’ve been particularly pinged toward, which is probably my own fault for not actually feeling drawn into this game yet. Ask me in like 3 days again?
This is actually giving me some pause, though. I don't know if this is like, WiFOM logic, but.. doesn't shadow enjoy playing as scum? Wouldn't he be in it, 100%, and.. just generally be playing better if he had a scum role PM? Like, I don't think his posts are great, but he's clearly capable of playing better as scum and.. he hasn't? I feel like to reliably sort him I want to actually interact with him real-time.
shadow: Why are you asking people their thoughts on things rather than provide your own analysis? That's the general trend I keep seeing from your posts.
His point about Togs is actually pretty good, I don't think shadow has been putting effort into the game?
So I sort of like how he's been conversing to the person he's scumreading but the thing that concerns me is that the early game questions didn't feel like they went anywhere.
Lastwhisper: Kind of deferring to dawning on this one because she says that Last as scum is pretty obvious and.. she says that this is not his scumgame? But still I am a little concerned when I read his posts.
I feel like he's just on the sidelines commenting on everything rather than actually getting his hands dirty and solving, though. Like, he's been quoting everybody by highlighting their name in green and then responding to them, but I don't really see proactive playing here, if that makes sense. He hasn't really made much of an impression on me and looking at his ISO it's just a lot of responses to things, sometimes with a question.
@Lastwhisper
1. Can you please explain to me why you are voting Rhand? He's one of the towniest players in the game for me and you barely talk about him when I ISO your posts. I'm not following your train of thought or progression here. All I see is this:
Quote from Lastwhisper »
That's twice you voted people because of votes you don't like... is this a thing with you? You are like anti-omgus voter, idk what that means in terms of what alignment you are, I just find it weird that so early on you are attacking peoples reasonings for their votes. So little posts means less to attack, and not all reasons for scum reading someone early on are as clear and concise as you want them to be. and then there's the fact that sheeping is considered scumming on our home site, probably plays a part in his post.
but I'm not getting how that factors into you voting him.
2. How does Iso resemble his scum self in Disinheritance, besides the whole "can we vote Bur right now" shtick? Can you clarify your reads around the whole Vezok/Iso/Cyan trio?
---
JoeTerry:
Feels like he's spewed town at this point? Am a fan of how he claimed (I feel like if he was a mafia appraiser he would just keep his ability to use with his scumbuddies) and a fair number of people have outlined the behavioral reasons as to why he is likely town. Plus this is just good tone here:
Quote from JoeTerry »
Yeah it’s pretty much coolest. I’m town and everyone knows it. It’s a really nice feeling.
Quote from JoeTerry »
I did my meta reading on you and read your ISO in this game and I'm inclined to think you are town, but still have a couple blips on my radar. Most of your post seem genuine solvish, but I didn't like your push to claim numbers, your knee-jerk reaction to ISO's suspicion and this seemingly naked vote on Atog. However, I also don't think scum puts in a lot of meta leg work at this point of the game. I probably need to isolate a few more players in this game. Give me a reason to look into Atog more next.
---
Cantripmancer: Hasn't really contributed yet outside of mechanics discussion.
killjoy: Only has 7 posts... let's try to read them in a detailed way.
- I like where he was going with the whole "I think talking to you guys specifically will help me figure out your alignment" but he does it in a pretty sloppy way? He's not asking me very alignment indicative questions IMO.
- Can buy the Last read if I squint. Feels like he is.. trying to work through the game in his own way in 175? I think?
Quote from killjoy »
Last responds to this is kind of a casual, sincere way. I feel like he continues this tone with Shin in 30. It's not like, super telling... but it's going in a good direction that I'm seeing there.
Quote from killjoy »
I don't recall saying he was relaxed and casual?
??? killjoy can you explain the above? And why do you think scum is focusing on your read on Last?
Cyan: Basically Cyan needs to get back to me WRT talking about his thought processes and stuff before I can begin to formulate an actual read on him, because his posts where he votes Togs are so vague and don't.. provide a window into how he thinks really at all.
Quote from Cyan »
I'm really having a hard time keeping up with this game.
Why haven't you solved it already Iso.
The "why haven't you solved it already" kind of pings townie for me though? We'll see. I can buy that Cyan is having a hard time getting engaged in this game though, I've literally spent the entire day writing this/homework/watching GP Seattle so.
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dawningbluesky: Lots to unpack here.
She doesn't like vezok for talking too much about mechanics, but she does point out the thing about shadow that I liked (which was that he was offering his opinion on others rather than offer his own analysis). She thinks Shin/Last is town for reasons I can understand but don't entirely agree with (I've never seen Lastwhisper be "a nervous wreck" as scum). Her townreading KA for that post is a little weird and I'm glad that KA went out of his way to question dawning over it. 348 is pretty solid engagement with Grapefruit.
I wasn't the biggest fan of how dawning hopped onto the Togs wagon but I do like her engagement with Togs over it. Then she goes back to shadow. Blegh. I kind of just want to set aside Phraze for a couple Day phases then read her off of how others interact with her. That's how I did it in the last game I played withe her, where she was scum. I just let PoE do its thing and then the scumteam got double lynched.
My gut says that she's town but.. it's always hard to tell with her. I feel like with shadow this is a read that will get stronger with real time interaction and examining how other people treat her (when they flip). I can go in more depth into this read and try doing a big ISO if people want, but I want to finish this
Grapefruit21: So Grape seems to be a pretty hot topic, gonna take a look at him myself (I haven't played with scum!Grape yet I don't think, but he's been a fairly easy read to me in the past) and see what comes out.
First off I see that he's top post in the ISO and I am not sure if Grape has the willpower to top post D1 as scum. This is a read that could bite me in the behind but:
Quote from Grapefruit21 »
Scumming sucks even when you are a broken janitor that has a publicly provable portion of their role. I was trying so hard to stay invested in this game and I was still on the low end of end game posters. And that was with me in a position that was much more likely to be motivated than town deprived of any information.
Grape LITERALLY admitted that he struggled with posting in the last game and now he's the top poster here. Maybe I'm drinking the wine but I think there's something here?
His first couple of posts are about the auction house logs. Sure. Mechanics discussion. Get it out of the way now. So far what I get out of his posts is that.. he isn't really trying to push a specific agenda? He's just posting and commenting/replying to everyone else then listing his own thoughts. I'm not really seeing any predetermined game plan when I look at his posts.
I feel like Grape doesn't concentrate on the logs if he's scum. This feels like a hottake, but I feel like if he's scum he would have a lot more on his plate than to worry about mechanics? Like someone mentioned that if he's scum this would be his third scum rand in a row and.. idk I feel like he would approach it differently.
I like his pressure of Lastwhisper, and.. I just don't really understand why people are scumreading him? His ISO feels agenda-less.
Quote from Grapefruit21 »
As for me being obv!town I think I usually am. I'm also either the most active or second most active so far and have plenty to be read by.
I also just like the tone of this post, it reminds me of when I'm invested in games. I think just gun to head Grape is town; some of that read has to do with his postgame explanation of Pirates Mafia but he just has zero agenda in his posts I feel.
Atogaholic: TOGGO
The way to read Togs is to track his engagement and activity. If he dips off in the endgame then it's very likely that he's scum. My only problem with this is that he flakes on MTGS a non-zero amount of time but Megiddo should be very easy to read when he replaces in.
Says that Shinichi is a townlean then asks me about dawningbluesky. I do agree that the vezok/Togs interaction is kind of strange but I am not super sold that they're indicative of buddies as Iso believes that they are? Just feels like Togs wouldn't be.. this blatant about it.
Togs, can you explain to me what recent posts of Lastwhisper's that you've liked?
Quote from Atogaholic »
As for Iso, I think he’s wrong about a lot of things but probably actually town. He sounds really really sure of his own opinions which is towny but maybe I’m just underestimating his ego as scum.
Why do you think he is wrong on vezok and Grapefruit?
Quote from Atogaholic »
I’ll give you an alternate question then, why did you list Dota as a town lean earlier ?
I was a fan of his responses to Grape early in the game, but I'm going to dive deeper into what he has posted after you because I see that he's 7 posted and.. outside of sparring with Grape I don't exactly recall what he has done?
OK I think I'm starting to see the glimmers of town Togs? I'm a fan of how he looks at the playerbase, sorts them into tiers, and then goes "gonna try to think of some questions to engage with these people". Feels like it's something he'd be a little too self-conscious to say as scum and.. he has been working to converse with people.
Quote from Atogaholic »
Okay I honestly get what you mean, I have mainly been shooting questions at players I’m unsure about and haven’t had the opportunity to push any case except KJ’s, maybe. But with the state of the game right now, I look at many of the players and feel like I need to see more from them to get anywhere. Yes other players have been making pushes but most of these I want to see a response first or I just disagree with. Right now what I think this game needs is for more discussions to form between the players and that’s what I’m trying to get started right now, because it honestly feels really slow.
And yeah I don’t really think you can tout being much “meatier” than I am either.
This is a paragraph that I do not think scum!Togs would post, and he has actually been fairly active or so throughout these past couple of days? He's trying to take the initiative here which I am a fan of.
Quote from Atogaholic »
Ok like.. my presence has nothing to do with the presence of all the people voting me, which since I’m the biggest wagon, should be relevant because it’s literally larger than anyone else’s. I know you’re a busy person but cmon, please be willing to look up a couple posts for the sake of conversing with me. I wouldn’t mind pulling up the posts myself if I wanted to point your attention to them, but I seriously think you haven’t read them in the first place and I think you could benefit from doing so.
Also another pretty townie post from Togs?
Yeah I just read his ISO and I do not think Togs is scum. Feels like he's been pretty transparent with how he's been playing the game and I am a fan of that.
DoTArchon: Has only seven posts but they're pretty large. I liked him earlier because I thought his pressure of Grape was good, but I'm not really sure if I agree with him scumreading Grape? Honestly I have a difficult time reading him now because his posts are too blocked up, plus he really hasn't posted that much. Need to see more from him about where his head is at, also would be great to interact with him in real time.
Wuffles/Gwen: Gwen complaining that no one is interacting with her is.. tiny town if I squint? Wuffles's four posts are all mechanics but it's cool to see an oldie back.
tomsloger: tom's always a challenging read. Going to give my impressions of his posts but I feel more comfortable examining him from a macro perspective moreso than a micro perspective, if that makes sense.
dawning/tomsloger probably not w/w
Quote from tomsloger »
Proph towny and atog scummy but they're both just people id rather read after day 1
willing to enlighten me as to why you believe that both are the case?
fair enough read on shin/last
not really sure what to make of his lash-out at silver
what's tom posted so far feels like it can come from either alignment I feel. Just going to jot him down as "a player playing in this game" and then.. work on solving him later probably.
Silvercrys: Is this Silver's first rand as scum? (I know he replaced out of the WH one). Okay out of seriousness he's been mostly mechanics talk so far but I like his paragraph where he talks about vezok/Togs; he's hitting similar chords as to how I feel about the whole situation with them and I like how we're mindmelding on that particular topic.
vezokpiraka: Here we come to someone I haven't really looked at in depth, gonna refresh myself on what he has posted. He has 33 posts but I do not recall what he has notably done in the thread, okay. First couple of posts are about mechanics. His questions seem.. somewhat shallow to me so far? (Like shadow's questions). Also I provided my read on dawning, would love for you to explain that.
Quote from vezokpiraka »
Also Cyan appears to be town for now. Grape is acting very strange, but not necessarily in a scummy way.
Can you substantiate this, por favor? Why do you think Cyan is town... "for now"? What specific actions of Grape's do you think is strange? I sort of liked how he.. dug up meta on Iso and then dropped it in favor of Togs? It's weird but I feel like scum who would want to make a meta attack on another player would DOUBLE DOWN after figuring out similarities and then vezok was like "not ignoring you anymore" WRT Togs. Why do you think Killjoy is town, vezok?
vezok is kind of confusing for me to read but gun to head maybe town? Just thinking about the Iso move to Togs and.. thinking that it's kind of weird for scum!vezok to do? Maybe if he figures that he can't push Iso on D1? Would appreciate other people's insight on this particular read.
Rhand: Think he's fairly strong town? Him confidently clearing Terry is something that scum are kind of hesitant to do because they want to expand the PoE, not shrink it. Good, probing questions to other players as well:
Quote from Rhand »
Question for you: if you know you have a hard time reading Proph and me, then why question us? Wouldn’t it make more sense to question people that might actually give you an alignment read?
Quote from Rhand »
@Shadow: I’m fine if you want Proph’s answer first, but:
- why ask Proph?
- why about Iso?
- what is your own take on Iso?
The thing I want to know about is this progression right here:
Too drunk to post right now, but I want to say I really think DBS feels off.
@DBS: since you were wring in the order of atuff you were attacking Atog for, why are you not attacking Grape for the same thing?
@Proph: Like I said, I attributed shadow's start to shaky footing. DoT has done nothing that I explicitly remember so far; why curious about him in particular? As for you, I think pretty much the same thing about you as I think about shadow - nothing particularly bad, just trying to get your head in the game, which seems fine. That said, I don't really agree with your placement on Togs, Grape, and LW. The rest are alright, I guess.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@proph
Kinda want to sheep that togs read...
Think both of y'all are easy to lynch early and easy to clear late.
How bad does shadow have to play to be townie to you?
Is dawn a townread for gut alone? Nothing in there seems positive.
Why would scum grapefruit not talk mechanics?
Proph can you talk more about Vezok. I see his Iso progression differently to you. In interacting with him during it I felt like he did double down when he found arrogant scum Iso. And I butted heads with him over it. I also find him focusing that intently on Iso and not picking up on his push on togs is a weird, scummy look. And I don't see how your reasoning adds up to a town lean but unsure about it.
Ditto the above question on DBS. I agree with your conclusion but don't see your math adding up. At first you like what she's doing with Shadow, but then you don't like her hopping back onto him. What gives?
@tom fair enough. I can see that now. Was getting ahead of myself.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@DBS: I did explain why I voted you at first. Your reason to hop on the Atog wagon was bad because agreeing with someone else isn’t scummy in itself and not a reason to vote someone.
You clearly disagree with me, which is fine, and when Grapefruit showed that you had the situation backwards you unvoted, which is the townie thing to do.
So I unvoted.
But I gave the situation some thought. If you were town and really believed that what Atog did made him scum, then your vote should now be on Grapefruit because he is the one who did exactly what you accused Atog off.
So please answer my question: why are you not voting Grapefruit?
(I think this answered some other questions for me too)
@Kami: I think DBS is caught scum. I’m unsure about last: still leaning scum, but might be just a meta difference. As for Shadow: I don’t want to pursue him toDay. I don’t trust him and still feel like his questions are random and aimless, but I think I will get a more solid read after we had some flips and he starts his analysing game.
I agree that dawn is acting weirdly based on what I've seen of her play prior, but I attributed that to her tempering her play due to her now multi-game experience here, including a Day 1 mislynch in Pirates Mafia. Her tone is dramatically different from what I recall in Zero Escape, and she honestly sounds almost a bit bitter.
To the people who have played with her at MAL, is this indicative of her scum game, or just some sort of weird outlier?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm really liking Proph's catch-up post. Seems genuine to me and I really like how his reads progress.
I'm warming up on Iso a bit. Dropping the gimmick feels like a town thing to do and his coming back after 4 days feels like town trying to solve stuff and not scum trying to push a mislynch. He' neutral for me right now.
@tom: Top three reads. As in the reads which you are most sure about until now.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy. Check out the Shop Thread
* What part of my catch-up felt like I was trying to solve the game? I didn't ask a single question, nor did I provide much in-depth analysis on, well, anything.
* Did I not feel like I was trying to solve the game, before? Please cite posts that indicated this to you.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I think Iso wanting Vezok to do legwork is in Iso’s scum!meta.
I would much prefer Iso to drink that potion, or maybe Shadow. Both are hard to read players that can bring us to victory if they’re town. And getting rid of them early if they’re scum is awesome.
Also, we should wait with using tommy gun until someone drank the potion (or refuses to drink it). If we catch scum with the potion, tommy gun should eliminate that scum (in case tommy gun ends up in scum hands, no one can refuse to kill a comfirmed scum)
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
* What part of my catch-up felt like I was trying to solve the game? I didn't ask a single question, nor did I provide much in-depth analysis on, well, anything.
* Did I not feel like I was trying to solve the game, before? Please cite posts that indicated this to you.
I wasn't talking about just your first post, but also the ones that came after it. You asked tom a question and I liked how you responded to proph.
I didn't have time to thouroughly read disinheritence yet.
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@silver I agree not wanting to talk about it yet, that's why I limited the question to just do you think you can make a read from the vote. You keep seeming to make reads that you think shouldn't be publicly stated yet. What do you think of Vezok?
I mean, that doesn't have anything to do with a specific read I have on a player (or number) right now if that's what you're saying, it just has to do with "optimal" play. I haven't, to my knowledge, made any allusions to "secret" reads on players that I don't want to share.
I would prefer to get through this bit with Iso before sharing my Vezok read, though, as well as ask the man himself a few questions.
@Silver: I mean, how does that not seem just completely and totally out of place to you?
It's certainly out of place, but being out of place doesn't make them scum together. I think it makes more sense as Atog town/Vezok wolf where Togs really wanted Vezok's opinion on the plan and Vezok didn't want to talk about it because everyone else realized it was a bad idea. The whole tone there doesn't make sense as partners to me. @Vezok: Could you substantiate your Togs vote a bit better? You said it was for the post he made immediately before your vote but not much than that. Which parts of that post convinced you he's scum?
@Rhand: Do you think the potion drinker is likely to exert much influence on the end game if they're town?
Cheese and crackers lots of replacements! Hello all!
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So while I’ve not been active over the weekend either, it’s not lost on me that as soon as pressure let up a little on Atog he vanished from the thread again. (Yes he still has 3 votes as of the last votecount but no one was engaging him)
@Atog: My preferred alignment is scum, I find it more fun. Why do you like me better for asking; what does that say about my alignment?
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Despite pirates Mafia I very strongly feel like this is town!grapefruit. Fool me once and all that, but I think his engagement level is a good sign as well.
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Hi silver!!! So regarding your speculation on money, I kind of suspect that people with less money is a way to keep the fact that this is role madness in check some. Source: I’m dirt poor.
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@Iso: since you’re dropping the role play, I expect you not to drop the effort you’re putting into the game in general, if you look like zero escape again I’ll be annoyed at you, because you’ve given us a taste of what can be.
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Proph: my questions regarding Kami’s role play were specifically designed to see if the players in question were actually really him or just seeing the role play and skimming. I specifically believe that Kami’s posts have had actual thought to them and a skimming scum very possibly wouldn’t have noticed that. As for why I didn’t post my own thoughts early, mostly cause I didn’t have any worth posting.
And yes, I do enjoy playing scum, but using that to try and gauge my alignment based on my engagement is not worthwhile. I’ve had games where I’ve been fully engaged as scum and town, and games where I couldn’t get into them as scum and town. Actually I just played a game on DLP where I replaced into a scum slot and made a royal muck up of things partially due to difficulty getting into the game.
Remember we did scum together back in Cantrip’s mini (name escapes me right now), not sure if that will help you at all.
I’ll try and be around to real time some time for you if you think that’ll actually help you, but I can’t guarantee anything.
Also, I’m gonna disagree with your assessment on Atog, I think the posts you specifically quoted look exactly not townie, he’s not getting specific, he’s not putting opinions into them, he’s just floating.
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Hey killjoy, back in ZE you did a huge effort post on Osie that was <wonderfully received, would you say that has an affect on your willingness to do something similar again?
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@Rhand: I can’t afford the potion. Plus, fwiw, I’m not going to get mislynched, so I’ll eventually have to be night killed or I’ll survive to end game.
I wouldn’t mind having it willed to me though.
I have no confidence in the order of the black or grey groupings. Grey is mostly a holding zone anyway.
*dawning I always feel is scummy, but I feel like she’s differently scummy this game than in previous ones. Her adaptation to mtgs could actually be a factor here, but I’m really not fond of her on again off again votes on me for (basically) no reason.
@Silver: the interaction between the two is slightly forced, and Atog saying he “supported” vezoks plan is a bit O.o since he did no such thing, all he did was ask him for the numbers and advantages.
Absolutely could be scum buddy interaction, but I don’t think it’s enough on its own to chain lynch them if one flips scum.
@Rhand: Cause then I have control of it. I wouldn’t (not do I think anyone should) drink it unless I was literally about to get lynched (or it’s the day before lylo). The threat of conf!town status is good enough.
@Silver: the interaction between the two is slightly forced, and Atog saying he “supported” vezoks plan is a bit O.o since he did no such thing, all he did was ask him for the numbers and advantages.
Hmmm. Do you think there's a material difference between claiming our auction numbers and claiming which items we get at the auction?
@Rhand
#526:
1. what did you find bad about my reasoning (#377)? before you say it wasn't an issue to begin with, remember that it was for that exact reasoning you voted me (look at what I quoted).
2. why were your votes, besides the one on me, poorly-explained? they looked like you wanted to figure something out, but you didn't actually question anyone (other than me now lol).
3. I've already answered why I didn't vote Grapefruit21 3 times. [#428 to Atogs, #481 to Rhand, #500 to Grape]
side comment: "caught scum"? at least 3 players have said I'm impossible to read. hmm.. you must be some impossible genius.
@Grapefruit21
#517:
I'm not sure about badgering, but you're definitely tunneling (ironclad worldview).
your explanations have been stagnant and devoid of new content/observations. I've been asking(?) you to pursue those reads further, before you start arguing with others about their reads on those suspects [#434, #453, #481, #484]. if those posts weren't clear, I'll ask now, nicely: please show me new content and observations, I am not looking to be convinced, I want to see that you're actually building a case. thank you.
I'm saying Rhand is vote-hopping, not you .-. but you do have an unexplained vote/hunch on Yurkin
if arrogance is an issue for you, then it would be appreciated if you try to manage it. I might as well have continued my rampage since ZE if inconsideration was a thing.
since you probably, and understandably, haven't paid attention to my posts, here are my votes and reasons:
1. DisplayName: rvs
2. Vaimes: #160 to Proph. while I suspected Shadow, I would rather see content from a new player.
3. Shadow: [#134, #229]
4. Atogaholic: [#377, #393] while I stand corrected, it seems Rhand is trying to invest in it.
5. Shadow (again): Grapes had enough content in his followup that I won't call it sheeping, so back to my original vote.
6. Rhand: [#377, #453] my current vote on him is not so much him ignoring my questions, but the fact that his ISO is lacking in explanations (especially in regards to his votes). he says Terry is town, just like that, no doubts? not sure if this is a town sign.
@Iso
#527:
I'm just antagonistic at some point -.-
about Vezok/Grape, #103 looks like something better pointed out in scumchat? s/t or t/t, but never s/s, in my opinion.
I can probably agree on poking Atogs, since his posts do lack in sufficient content.
@anyone familiar with Rhand
is drunk-post-voting a part of his scum meta? the only game I've seen of scum!Rhand had him drunk-post-voting, so I was wondering if it was indicative. also, does he prefer giving the long-short of a thoughtline? or better yet, just tell me his playstyle/meta.
end of post:
I'm content with my vote on Rhand atm. either he's on a fool's errand by voting me, or he's scum trying to invest in what would be the easiest target (and I have quite a good record of being an easy target =.=)
I guess this ends my Contributions To The Game and begins my simple Responding To Questions, since my observations aren't all that welcome here.
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@Silver: the interaction between the two is slightly forced, and Atog saying he “supported” vezoks plan is a bit O.o since he did no such thing, all he did was ask him for the numbers and advantages.
Hmmm. Do you think there's a material difference between claiming our auction numbers and claiming which items we get at the auction?
I think there are cases where one will be different from the other, but both end up revealing who gets which items, which is more information out in public than I’d be happy with being there.
@Dawn:
1. It’s only when someone pointed out to me that the meta you come from is different that I started thinking your vote wasn’t as scummy as I initially thought. To me it felt (and still kinda does feel) like you called normal behavior scummy to have a reason to hop on the growing Atog wagn.
2. I always vote for a reason and I always state it. I really don’t know what you’re talking about here.
3. Fine. I’m just as unhappy with your explanation of that as you are with my explanation of my votes.
@Everyone: read his “side comment”. I’m pretty sold that statement can only come from scum.
2. Are Will assignments publicly announced? Will people know who I leave my stuff to?
3. By publicly discussing who gets what we are inevitably revealing auction numbers
I'm still needing an answer to #2.
Ok, I don't need to get it answered, it was in the OP. So Wills are read aloud. I need to make a town block and plan on dividing my possessions spread out instead of concentrated on one person.
I also decided I'm not going to share my auction number yet. I don't know if there is any potential danger to that for one reason or another. I have a plan though.
@Dawn:
1. It’s only when someone pointed out to me that the meta you come from is different that I started thinking your vote wasn’t as scummy as I initially thought. To me it felt (and still kinda does feel) like you called normal behavior scummy to have a reason to hop on the growing Atog wagn.
2. I always vote for a reason and I always state it. I really don’t know what you’re talking about here.
3. Fine. I’m just as unhappy with your explanation of that as you are with my explanation of my votes.
@Everyone: read his “side comment”. I’m pretty sold that statement can only come from scum.
Oh and drunk posting isn’t alignment telling for me lol
1. that does not answer my reasoning (#377). and nobody in this thread talked about my meta, especially in regards to what is/isn't scummy, so I also don't understand your conclusion in that "someone pointed out to me that the meta you come from is different that I started thinking your vote wasn’t as scummy".
2. your reasons were "poorly-explained", not "unexplained". if you look at even your vote on me, it was just 1 sentence. your vote on Shadow is probably the most explained, but that reeked of pre-flip association, especially the "if one is town" bit.
3. you don't have to make this a contest of perspectives. everyone has their own. as I've stated before, your mindset is what needs out, not how convincing you are. explain all your votes to me now, just as I have in that long post, if you can.
4. hmm I'll be taking that Potion of Truth then. isn't it strange that you didn't even think of verifying my alignment, and just want to convince everyone that I am scum? looks like you're desperate.
5. to me, being drunk is indicative of your alignment, as it's the only scum game I've seen from you.
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1. Someone did. I think it was Grape. I’ll have to look back. Someone said that where you come from sheeping is considered scummy.
2. my votes are not poorly explained.
3. I’ve said about my votes what needs to be said. I’m not gonna try and rephrase or put more words to them. You have my reasons. Putting more sentences to them won’t change them.
4. I’m not desperate. I want the potion to be used by a player that can do great things when townconfirmed / can wreck us if scum. And I really think you’re scum and would love to lynch scum. Waiting another Day to get the strongest scumread to drink a potion makes no sense because that means lynching a less strong read toDay.
5. You keep saying things that make my conviction stronger. You really just said that you believe I only get drunk irl when I roll scum in mafia. That’s just... lol. FYI, it was my bf’s bday and I ended up drinking from noon until 4am.
@Rhand: Your thoughts look consistent, but I... don't know if I believe that you've actually thought about it. You don't think a good town player who became an innocent child would be night killed sooner rather than later? Even if there's a protective, they aren't likely to last forever.
@shadow: If you reveal which items you win at an auction, people will know what your auction number is because we know what number won which auction. The reverse is also true, if you reveal your number we'll know what items you win. I mean, what I'm getting at is that Togs and Vezok proposed essentially identical plans, which is what I thought Atog was referring to when he said he supported Vezok's plan.
Actually, I'm going to let Iso off the hook here I think.
Could you walk me through the "interacting with my buddy" mindset in these posts?
I have one main idea from it that should be discussed. It's about auction numbers. Should we all claim and decide on who gets what item or should we stay hidden this way minimizing the potential of a townie with a good item being eliminated. I can see advantages and disadvantages for both of these options.
Would like to hear your rundowns on the advantages and whatnot since you obviously put in a lot more thought than me, I thought this was a Batman game until I got my role pm. I think I’d actually be in favor of keeping what items we get in the open and such because it would promote cooperation and communication and that’s always lovely to see in a game.
I will say though, I have an ability that can affect the bidding process, which is probably not the only one present in the setup and I’d be very surprised if the scum didn’t have one. So, keeping track of everything probably won’t be perfect but it can also help spot out when abilities like this aren’t used for good.
I did ask for some elaboration of your plan after your entrance then I poked you when you didn’t respond to my thoughts and I poked you again when you didn’t respond to that either.. Basically I want you to acknowledge I exist, lol. I do think it’s kind of weird you didn’t engage me further since I was like, the only guy who voiced support for your plan.
Atog's last post makes me think he is scum as it says almost nothing and appeared right after suspicion started mounting on him.
Just because you don’t read my posts doesn’t mean they don’t say anything.
Because it looks.... genuinely frustrated that Vezok isn't responding to him more than it looks fake to me, and if it was unplanned it looks more like a conversation they should have had in scum chat? Like, maybe I'm crazy, but it seems to me that a scum player with day chat is unlikely to take their frustrations out on their partner in-thread unless they've just, given up on the game altogether which doesn't really mesh with Tog's other posts because he isn't totally focused on Vezok.
"There are those things which originate from beyond our Sphere, that disguise themselves in the flesh of Man; but their inner nature is so wholly Alien, that they unsettle all around them. Being possessed of a cunning Logic, they are not vexing to the human Reason. Yet they are found out by the human Instinct, attuned since primeval times to sense the presence and danger of the Other. It is the least of their actions which betrays them; a careless hand-gesture reminiscent of certain eldritch Signs, or a queer saying that spills from their lips and carries unintended Meaning related to their unwholesome Purpose." - von Junzt, Unaussprechlichen Kulten
@Silver: if Shadow/Iso are town, I don’t think their chances to get killed at Night increase that drastically by getting confirmed. They already are high priority kills. + killing a confirmed town is a risk. For all we know there’s a doc in the game. Or a watcher.
So yeh, I did think about it.
Early game especially Iso would be amazing as confirmed town.
@Rhand: Eh. Maybe it's just a difference of opinion then, because I don't really think that's the case. Also, I pretty heavily disagree with your meta read on shadow (not that he isn't fun to have around ) but it seems like you believe it so this probably isn't a fruitful line of inquiry any longer.
@Silver: the reason I’m not sold that can’t be scum/scum is because it looks more like obligatory follow up on questions they asked, rather than actually caring. I don’t particularly think it’s more likely s/s than t/s, I’m just contending that it’s not a hard unalignment.
@Rhand: When have I ever been high priority night kill?
@Silver: the reason I’m not sold that can’t be scum/scum is because it looks more like obligatory follow up on questions they asked, rather than actually caring. I don’t particularly think it’s more likely s/s than t/s, I’m just contending that it’s not a hard unalignment.
Mmm. You don't think that interaction tells us *anything* about those two players?
These words give me chills. What I hear is that you are offended by the assertion of being caught, not by the assertion that you are a cultist.
Sorry, could you explain why you used the word cultist here? Did I miss something?
@Iso
There are times I can strongly read PHRAWN as town, and she's town. Currently, I feel her reads are coming from town (as in I understand them), but I'm not getting that same gut feel, so I'm not as certain right now.
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@Silver: the reason I’m not sold that can’t be scum/scum is because it looks more like obligatory follow up on questions they asked, rather than actually caring. I don’t particularly think it’s more likely s/s than t/s, I’m just contending that it’s not a hard unalignment.
Mmm. You don't think that interaction tells us *anything* about those two players?
-_-
I think this interaction looks scummy from Atog specifically and weird from Vezok not replying until pushed to do so, but that’s not what you’re asking me. Or at least that’s not what I got from your questions.
1. Someone did. I think it was Grape. I’ll have to look back. Someone said that where you come from sheeping is considered scummy.
2. my votes are not poorly explained.
3. I’ve said about my votes what needs to be said. I’m not gonna try and rephrase or put more words to them. You have my reasons. Putting more sentences to them won’t change them.
4. I’m not desperate. I want the potion to be used by a player that can do great things when townconfirmed / can wreck us if scum. And I really think you’re scum and would love to lynch scum. Waiting another Day to get the strongest scumread to drink a potion makes no sense because that means lynching a less strong read toDay.
5. You keep saying things that make my conviction stronger. You really just said that you believe I only get drunk irl when I roll scum in mafia. That’s just... lol. FYI, it was my bf’s bday and I ended up drinking from noon until 4am.
1. isn't sheeping normally scummy? I've seen Proph and Bur play over on my site, and they think the same way.
2. your explanations were short, with limited reasons.
3. I asked for you to link them as I did, not add more words to them. you wanted it easy, right? that is easy.
4. are you implying that I'm not a good player for town? allow me to say the same about you.
if my words weren't clear enough... I am town and I think you are scum for making an 'impossible read' on someone who has three witnesses to confirm the hard-to-read aspect. your read is obviously contrived.
5. I've seen you in Emperor Mafia - yes you were drunk there, and yes you were scum. so yes, I'm serious. if you take that as a taunt, then apologies if you thought that way. I don't need a detailed OoG explanation, but I'm asking OTHERS that isn't YOU, whether what I saw about a drunkscum!Rhand is real or not, amongst other things.
side comment: "caught scum"? at least 3 players have said I'm impossible to read. hmm.. you must be some impossible genius.
These words give me chills. What I hear is that you are offended by the assertion of being caught, not by the assertion that you are a cultist.
I always give someone chills :3
I am town
how real is that?
you should read my scumgame before you make assumptions. I do not like to assert anything, as either alignment. I'm aggressive and arrogant at times, yes, but I don't like to make my alignment that obvious. as mentioned before in ZE(and I guess others will have to confirm it), playing transparently/honestly takes away the fun of guessing. if you want to lynch me simply because I make guessing work hard, then you're obviously missing out on the fun. I'm not interested in making this game more fun for you either. good day.
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Be grateful, always."
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Also I'm not really going for this at all. It may be ending up there but if it is it's not by design. I'm trying to get you to vote me because most of your posts are you implying that you think I'm scum. And you're still not voting me. Despite voting other people for doing things explicitly for things you've talked about me doing. And I can't wrap my head around why. I'm not trying to bait you, I'm trying to understand your mindset. You've explained the sheeping one now, but the vote hopping you haven't.
Also I completely agree with 514. And am utterly confused as to why you're directing it at me. Well apart from me thinking that what I think matters, because I do think that. I'm very arrogant that way.
@Iso I still want to lynch Vezok today, who would you want to drink the potion in that world, knowing you have to decide before Vezok flips?
Prophylaxis: best town
KamikazeArchon: Right now I have him penned down as someone whose posts I enjoy reading, and while I do not recall playing with scum!Kami other than the shipshow that was Final Fantasy Mafia I can tell that he is really into the game. Let's see here.
One thing that I notice when reading his posts is that he's fairly mechanics focused, which is fine for a game this complex, but obviously I want to see this backed up with actionable content. He townreads Rhand and I early, then he speculates about the auction house.
Like this question from KA; it's easy to fake, sure, but it shows evidence of a solving mindset. Follow up question to JoeTerry means that he actually cares about his question being answered.
Feels like this meta read has nuance backed up behind it, which I like. Like, I feel that if KA was scum he could make a meta comparison to the Micro in which Shinichi was scum and use it to try and push a mislynch on Shinichi but this read kind of feels guileless and has solid reasoning behind it.
This is a really good observation/line of questioning from KA. If KA was scum I feel like this line of questioning on Grapefruit would read a lot more opportunistic, but to me it feels like he's actually being inquisitive. Like, if he's scum.. where is the agenda here?
What motive does he has to post this as scum? Wouldn't he be fine with accepting townreads on him?
So yeah, I'm a fan of how KA has been playing and I feel like he's working to solve. My question to KA is - who do you think is scum? You voted Cyan prior to him coming back - what do you think of his posts as of right now? I noticed that you are scumreading vezok based off of his "Terry is town" claim - what do you think of him?
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RE1031: As I mentioned before, I liked Shinichi's play before he replaced out. I don't think he claims to have mechanical knowledge of a townie in his first post. @Rhand - the reason why I pointed scumhunting questions to Shinichi was because I didn't catch that upon first read. I read his posts and thought they were questionable but then I read them a second time and then I caught him claiming mechanical knowledge.
Just some posts that I found townie from Shin:
Don't think he talks about how frustrating it is to read Vaimes if Shin is scum.
Also thinking about it, Togs/Shin unaligned pairs? If Togs and Shinichi were scum together Shinichi wouldn't have a difficult time typing out his name?
Like I feel he would know if they were scum together.
Also am a fan of 266, feels like he's actually thinking deeply about the gamestate in a way that I don't think comes from Shinichi scum.
As for RE, I've been liking her catchup thus far and I like how she's thinking along the same lines as me WRT Cyan.
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Iso: Main thing I want to see from Iso is if his roleplay stuff makes his posts specifically designed to look good or if what he is saying are actually his real, genuine thoughts.
He's been voting vezok and also suspecting Grapefruit/Togs. One thing that I'm interested in is that he seems to be.. pretty lenient towards shadow? Like I've pressured shadow a couple of times and Iso is kind of stepping up to bat for him. This is an interaction worth noting down the line I feel.
Also I'm still confused as to why Iso thought people were pressuring Shinichi? I don't recall pressure on Shinichi at all, I'll reread to double check but it's just something I don't recall.
I do like his post 202, feels like he's shooting pretty inquisitive/thoughtful questions to a fair number of people.
He has been very consistent about pressuring Togs/Grape/vezok and believing that all three are scum. I want to read those three myself before I come to a conclusion on this. I do like how he is engaging with his scumreads though, and questioning them, rather than just leaving them by the wayside.
So I like where Iso's head is at and what he's doing, but I feel like I'll have a better pulse on reading him later on in the game. I'm a little worried that he came into the game deciding to pressure vezok/Grape/Togs and then.. has static reads after all of that but he has been trying to engage with them. Iso, what are your thoughts on me and DoTA?
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shadowlancerx: I think he's scum/worthy of more pressure, Iso likes what he's seeing but believes that he hasn't gotten into the game yet.
The thing that's pinging me here is that if you look at the first couple of posts in his ISO, he has three questions:
Like... these are questions, but dawning has a good point where she said that he's asking others for things but not really providing much of his own input. Plus, his questions aren't really that great? It's just "what do you think of X" "post a reads list" which I am not really sure helps him solve.
This is actually giving me some pause, though. I don't know if this is like, WiFOM logic, but.. doesn't shadow enjoy playing as scum? Wouldn't he be in it, 100%, and.. just generally be playing better if he had a scum role PM? Like, I don't think his posts are great, but he's clearly capable of playing better as scum and.. he hasn't? I feel like to reliably sort him I want to actually interact with him real-time.
shadow: Why are you asking people their thoughts on things rather than provide your own analysis? That's the general trend I keep seeing from your posts.
His point about Togs is actually pretty good, I don't think shadow has been putting effort into the game?
So I sort of like how he's been conversing to the person he's scumreading but the thing that concerns me is that the early game questions didn't feel like they went anywhere.
Lastwhisper: Kind of deferring to dawning on this one because she says that Last as scum is pretty obvious and.. she says that this is not his scumgame? But still I am a little concerned when I read his posts.
I feel like he's just on the sidelines commenting on everything rather than actually getting his hands dirty and solving, though. Like, he's been quoting everybody by highlighting their name in green and then responding to them, but I don't really see proactive playing here, if that makes sense. He hasn't really made much of an impression on me and looking at his ISO it's just a lot of responses to things, sometimes with a question.
@Lastwhisper
1. Can you please explain to me why you are voting Rhand? He's one of the towniest players in the game for me and you barely talk about him when I ISO your posts. I'm not following your train of thought or progression here. All I see is this:
but I'm not getting how that factors into you voting him.
2. How does Iso resemble his scum self in Disinheritance, besides the whole "can we vote Bur right now" shtick? Can you clarify your reads around the whole Vezok/Iso/Cyan trio?
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JoeTerry:
Feels like he's spewed town at this point? Am a fan of how he claimed (I feel like if he was a mafia appraiser he would just keep his ability to use with his scumbuddies) and a fair number of people have outlined the behavioral reasons as to why he is likely town. Plus this is just good tone here:
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Cantripmancer: Hasn't really contributed yet outside of mechanics discussion.
killjoy: Only has 7 posts... let's try to read them in a detailed way.
- I like where he was going with the whole "I think talking to you guys specifically will help me figure out your alignment" but he does it in a pretty sloppy way? He's not asking me very alignment indicative questions IMO.
- Can buy the Last read if I squint. Feels like he is.. trying to work through the game in his own way in 175? I think?
??? killjoy can you explain the above? And why do you think scum is focusing on your read on Last?
Cyan: Basically Cyan needs to get back to me WRT talking about his thought processes and stuff before I can begin to formulate an actual read on him, because his posts where he votes Togs are so vague and don't.. provide a window into how he thinks really at all.
The "why haven't you solved it already" kind of pings townie for me though? We'll see. I can buy that Cyan is having a hard time getting engaged in this game though, I've literally spent the entire day writing this/homework/watching GP Seattle so.
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dawningbluesky: Lots to unpack here.
She doesn't like vezok for talking too much about mechanics, but she does point out the thing about shadow that I liked (which was that he was offering his opinion on others rather than offer his own analysis). She thinks Shin/Last is town for reasons I can understand but don't entirely agree with (I've never seen Lastwhisper be "a nervous wreck" as scum). Her townreading KA for that post is a little weird and I'm glad that KA went out of his way to question dawning over it. 348 is pretty solid engagement with Grapefruit.
I wasn't the biggest fan of how dawning hopped onto the Togs wagon but I do like her engagement with Togs over it. Then she goes back to shadow. Blegh. I kind of just want to set aside Phraze for a couple Day phases then read her off of how others interact with her. That's how I did it in the last game I played withe her, where she was scum. I just let PoE do its thing and then the scumteam got double lynched.
My gut says that she's town but.. it's always hard to tell with her. I feel like with shadow this is a read that will get stronger with real time interaction and examining how other people treat her (when they flip). I can go in more depth into this read and try doing a big ISO if people want, but I want to finish this
Grapefruit21: So Grape seems to be a pretty hot topic, gonna take a look at him myself (I haven't played with scum!Grape yet I don't think, but he's been a fairly easy read to me in the past) and see what comes out.
First off I see that he's top post in the ISO and I am not sure if Grape has the willpower to top post D1 as scum. This is a read that could bite me in the behind but:
Grape LITERALLY admitted that he struggled with posting in the last game and now he's the top poster here. Maybe I'm drinking the wine but I think there's something here?
His first couple of posts are about the auction house logs. Sure. Mechanics discussion. Get it out of the way now. So far what I get out of his posts is that.. he isn't really trying to push a specific agenda? He's just posting and commenting/replying to everyone else then listing his own thoughts. I'm not really seeing any predetermined game plan when I look at his posts.
I feel like Grape doesn't concentrate on the logs if he's scum. This feels like a hottake, but I feel like if he's scum he would have a lot more on his plate than to worry about mechanics? Like someone mentioned that if he's scum this would be his third scum rand in a row and.. idk I feel like he would approach it differently.
I like his pressure of Lastwhisper, and.. I just don't really understand why people are scumreading him? His ISO feels agenda-less. I also just like the tone of this post, it reminds me of when I'm invested in games. I think just gun to head Grape is town; some of that read has to do with his postgame explanation of Pirates Mafia but he just has zero agenda in his posts I feel.
Atogaholic: TOGGO
The way to read Togs is to track his engagement and activity. If he dips off in the endgame then it's very likely that he's scum. My only problem with this is that he flakes on MTGS a non-zero amount of time but Megiddo should be very easy to read when he replaces in.
Says that Shinichi is a townlean then asks me about dawningbluesky. I do agree that the vezok/Togs interaction is kind of strange but I am not super sold that they're indicative of buddies as Iso believes that they are? Just feels like Togs wouldn't be.. this blatant about it.
Togs, can you explain to me what recent posts of Lastwhisper's that you've liked?
Why do you think he is wrong on vezok and Grapefruit?
I was a fan of his responses to Grape early in the game, but I'm going to dive deeper into what he has posted after you because I see that he's 7 posted and.. outside of sparring with Grape I don't exactly recall what he has done?
OK I think I'm starting to see the glimmers of town Togs? I'm a fan of how he looks at the playerbase, sorts them into tiers, and then goes "gonna try to think of some questions to engage with these people". Feels like it's something he'd be a little too self-conscious to say as scum and.. he has been working to converse with people.
This is a paragraph that I do not think scum!Togs would post, and he has actually been fairly active or so throughout these past couple of days? He's trying to take the initiative here which I am a fan of.
Also another pretty townie post from Togs?
Yeah I just read his ISO and I do not think Togs is scum. Feels like he's been pretty transparent with how he's been playing the game and I am a fan of that.
DoTArchon: Has only seven posts but they're pretty large. I liked him earlier because I thought his pressure of Grape was good, but I'm not really sure if I agree with him scumreading Grape? Honestly I have a difficult time reading him now because his posts are too blocked up, plus he really hasn't posted that much. Need to see more from him about where his head is at, also would be great to interact with him in real time.
Wuffles/Gwen: Gwen complaining that no one is interacting with her is.. tiny town if I squint? Wuffles's four posts are all mechanics but it's cool to see an oldie back.
tomsloger: tom's always a challenging read. Going to give my impressions of his posts but I feel more comfortable examining him from a macro perspective moreso than a micro perspective, if that makes sense.
dawning/tomsloger probably not w/w
willing to enlighten me as to why you believe that both are the case?
fair enough read on shin/last
not really sure what to make of his lash-out at silver
what's tom posted so far feels like it can come from either alignment I feel. Just going to jot him down as "a player playing in this game" and then.. work on solving him later probably.
Silvercrys: Is this Silver's first rand as scum? (I know he replaced out of the WH one). Okay out of seriousness he's been mostly mechanics talk so far but I like his paragraph where he talks about vezok/Togs; he's hitting similar chords as to how I feel about the whole situation with them and I like how we're mindmelding on that particular topic.
vezokpiraka: Here we come to someone I haven't really looked at in depth, gonna refresh myself on what he has posted. He has 33 posts but I do not recall what he has notably done in the thread, okay. First couple of posts are about mechanics. His questions seem.. somewhat shallow to me so far? (Like shadow's questions). Also I provided my read on dawning, would love for you to explain that.
Can you substantiate this, por favor? Why do you think Cyan is town... "for now"? What specific actions of Grape's do you think is strange? I sort of liked how he.. dug up meta on Iso and then dropped it in favor of Togs? It's weird but I feel like scum who would want to make a meta attack on another player would DOUBLE DOWN after figuring out similarities and then vezok was like "not ignoring you anymore" WRT Togs. Why do you think Killjoy is town, vezok?
vezok is kind of confusing for me to read but gun to head maybe town? Just thinking about the Iso move to Togs and.. thinking that it's kind of weird for scum!vezok to do? Maybe if he figures that he can't push Iso on D1? Would appreciate other people's insight on this particular read.
Rhand: Think he's fairly strong town? Him confidently clearing Terry is something that scum are kind of hesitant to do because they want to expand the PoE, not shrink it. Good, probing questions to other players as well:
The thing I want to know about is this progression right here:
Explain pls Rhand?
-------------
gg game solved
should be more active from here on out
if you guys have ANY questions about the big wall of text i just posted, let me know. also if I missed anything
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
That's an "if grapefruit scum, then..."
@proph
Kinda want to sheep that togs read...
Think both of y'all are easy to lynch early and easy to clear late.
How bad does shadow have to play to be townie to you?
Is dawn a townread for gut alone? Nothing in there seems positive.
Why would scum grapefruit not talk mechanics?
Ditto the above question on DBS. I agree with your conclusion but don't see your math adding up. At first you like what she's doing with Shadow, but then you don't like her hopping back onto him. What gives?
@tom fair enough. I can see that now. Was getting ahead of myself.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You clearly disagree with me, which is fine, and when Grapefruit showed that you had the situation backwards you unvoted, which is the townie thing to do.
So I unvoted.
But I gave the situation some thought. If you were town and really believed that what Atog did made him scum, then your vote should now be on Grapefruit because he is the one who did exactly what you accused Atog off.
So please answer my question: why are you not voting Grapefruit?
(I think this answered some other questions for me too)
@Kami: I think DBS is caught scum. I’m unsure about last: still leaning scum, but might be just a meta difference. As for Shadow: I don’t want to pursue him toDay. I don’t trust him and still feel like his questions are random and aimless, but I think I will get a more solid read after we had some flips and he starts his analysing game.
To the people who have played with her at MAL, is this indicative of her scum game, or just some sort of weird outlier?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm warming up on Iso a bit. Dropping the gimmick feels like a town thing to do and his coming back after 4 days feels like town trying to solve stuff and not scum trying to push a mislynch. He' neutral for me right now.
@tom: Top three reads. As in the reads which you are most sure about until now.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
* Did I not feel like I was trying to solve the game, before? Please cite posts that indicated this to you.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I would much prefer Iso to drink that potion, or maybe Shadow. Both are hard to read players that can bring us to victory if they’re town. And getting rid of them early if they’re scum is awesome.
Also, we should wait with using tommy gun until someone drank the potion (or refuses to drink it). If we catch scum with the potion, tommy gun should eliminate that scum (in case tommy gun ends up in scum hands, no one can refuse to kill a comfirmed scum)
>scum
seems legit
I am not opposed to drinking the potion.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I wasn't talking about just your first post, but also the ones that came after it. You asked tom a question and I liked how you responded to proph.
I didn't have time to thouroughly read disinheritence yet.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
I would prefer to get through this bit with Iso before sharing my Vezok read, though, as well as ask the man himself a few questions.
It's certainly out of place, but being out of place doesn't make them scum together. I think it makes more sense as Atog town/Vezok wolf where Togs really wanted Vezok's opinion on the plan and Vezok didn't want to talk about it because everyone else realized it was a bad idea. The whole tone there doesn't make sense as partners to me.
@Vezok: Could you substantiate your Togs vote a bit better? You said it was for the post he made immediately before your vote but not much than that. Which parts of that post convinced you he's scum?
@Rhand: Do you think the potion drinker is likely to exert much influence on the end game if they're town?
~~~~
So while I’ve not been active over the weekend either, it’s not lost on me that as soon as pressure let up a little on Atog he vanished from the thread again. (Yes he still has 3 votes as of the last votecount but no one was engaging him)
@Atog: My preferred alignment is scum, I find it more fun. Why do you like me better for asking; what does that say about my alignment?
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Despite pirates Mafia I very strongly feel like this is town!grapefruit. Fool me once and all that, but I think his engagement level is a good sign as well.
~~~~
Hi silver!!! So regarding your speculation on money, I kind of suspect that people with less money is a way to keep the fact that this is role madness in check some. Source: I’m dirt poor.
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@Iso: since you’re dropping the role play, I expect you not to drop the effort you’re putting into the game in general, if you look like zero escape again I’ll be annoyed at you, because you’ve given us a taste of what can be.
~~~~
Proph: my questions regarding Kami’s role play were specifically designed to see if the players in question were actually really him or just seeing the role play and skimming. I specifically believe that Kami’s posts have had actual thought to them and a skimming scum very possibly wouldn’t have noticed that. As for why I didn’t post my own thoughts early, mostly cause I didn’t have any worth posting.
And yes, I do enjoy playing scum, but using that to try and gauge my alignment based on my engagement is not worthwhile. I’ve had games where I’ve been fully engaged as scum and town, and games where I couldn’t get into them as scum and town. Actually I just played a game on DLP where I replaced into a scum slot and made a royal muck up of things partially due to difficulty getting into the game.
Remember we did scum together back in Cantrip’s mini (name escapes me right now), not sure if that will help you at all.
I’ll try and be around to real time some time for you if you think that’ll actually help you, but I can’t guarantee anything.
Also, I’m gonna disagree with your assessment on Atog, I think the posts you specifically quoted look exactly not townie, he’s not getting specific, he’s not putting opinions into them, he’s just floating.
~~~~
Hey killjoy, back in ZE you did a huge effort post on Osie that was <wonderfully received, would you say that has an affect on your willingness to do something similar again?
~~~~
@Rhand: I can’t afford the potion. Plus, fwiw, I’m not going to get mislynched, so I’ll eventually have to be night killed or I’ll survive to end game.
I wouldn’t mind having it willed to me though.
I see you have Togs as scum, do you have any thoughts about his initial interaction with Vezok?
Terry
Kami
Grape
Iso
Proph
Rhand
Dota
Wuffles
Killjoy
Vezok
RE
Last
Cantrip
Tom
Silver
Cyan
Dawning*
Atog
Notes:
Vezok/Grapefruit NKA
Tom/Silver NKA
I have no confidence in the order of the black or grey groupings. Grey is mostly a holding zone anyway.
*dawning I always feel is scummy, but I feel like she’s differently scummy this game than in previous ones. Her adaptation to mtgs could actually be a factor here, but I’m really not fond of her on again off again votes on me for (basically) no reason.
@Shadow: if you’re not gonna get lynched anyways, then why would you like the potion to be willed to you?
Absolutely could be scum buddy interaction, but I don’t think it’s enough on its own to chain lynch them if one flips scum.
@Rhand: Cause then I have control of it. I wouldn’t (not do I think anyone should) drink it unless I was literally about to get lynched (or it’s the day before lylo). The threat of conf!town status is good enough.
Depends who drinks it. Iso / Shadow for sure.
#526:
1. what did you find bad about my reasoning (#377)? before you say it wasn't an issue to begin with, remember that it was for that exact reasoning you voted me (look at what I quoted).
2. why were your votes, besides the one on me, poorly-explained? they looked like you wanted to figure something out, but you didn't actually question anyone (other than me now lol).
3. I've already answered why I didn't vote Grapefruit21 3 times. [#428 to Atogs, #481 to Rhand, #500 to Grape]
side comment: "caught scum"? at least 3 players have said I'm impossible to read. hmm.. you must be some impossible genius.
@Grapefruit21
#517:
I'm not sure about badgering, but you're definitely tunneling (ironclad worldview).
your explanations have been stagnant and devoid of new content/observations. I've been asking(?) you to pursue those reads further, before you start arguing with others about their reads on those suspects [#434, #453, #481, #484]. if those posts weren't clear, I'll ask now, nicely: please show me new content and observations, I am not looking to be convinced, I want to see that you're actually building a case. thank you.
I'm saying Rhand is vote-hopping, not you .-.
but you do have an unexplained vote/hunch on Yurkinif arrogance is an issue for you, then it would be appreciated if you try to manage it. I might as well have continued my rampage since ZE if inconsideration was a thing.
since you probably, and understandably, haven't paid attention to my posts, here are my votes and reasons:
1. DisplayName: rvs
2. Vaimes: #160 to Proph. while I suspected Shadow, I would rather see content from a new player.
3. Shadow: [#134, #229]
4. Atogaholic: [#377, #393] while I stand corrected, it seems Rhand is trying to invest in it.
5. Shadow (again): Grapes had enough content in his followup that I won't call it sheeping, so back to my original vote.
6. Rhand: [#377, #453] my current vote on him is not so much him ignoring my questions, but the fact that his ISO is lacking in explanations (especially in regards to his votes). he says Terry is town, just like that, no doubts? not sure if this is a town sign.
@Iso
#527:
I'm just antagonistic at some point -.-
about Vezok/Grape, #103 looks like something better pointed out in scumchat? s/t or t/t, but never s/s, in my opinion.
I can probably agree on poking Atogs, since his posts do lack in sufficient content.
@anyone familiar with Rhand
is drunk-post-voting a part of his scum meta? the only game I've seen of scum!Rhand had him drunk-post-voting, so I was wondering if it was indicative. also, does he prefer giving the long-short of a thoughtline? or better yet, just tell me his playstyle/meta.
end of post:
I'm content with my vote on Rhand atm. either he's on a fool's errand by voting me, or he's scum trying to invest in what would be the easiest target (and I have quite a good record of being an easy target =.=)
I guess this ends my Contributions To The Game and begins my simple Responding To Questions, since my observations aren't all that welcome here.
Be grateful, always."
I'm still needing an answer to #2.
1. It’s only when someone pointed out to me that the meta you come from is different that I started thinking your vote wasn’t as scummy as I initially thought. To me it felt (and still kinda does feel) like you called normal behavior scummy to have a reason to hop on the growing Atog wagn.
2. I always vote for a reason and I always state it. I really don’t know what you’re talking about here.
3. Fine. I’m just as unhappy with your explanation of that as you are with my explanation of my votes.
@Everyone: read his “side comment”. I’m pretty sold that statement can only come from scum.
I also decided I'm not going to share my auction number yet. I don't know if there is any potential danger to that for one reason or another. I have a plan though.
2. your reasons were "poorly-explained", not "unexplained". if you look at even your vote on me, it was just 1 sentence. your vote on Shadow is probably the most explained, but that reeked of pre-flip association, especially the "if one is town" bit.
3. you don't have to make this a contest of perspectives. everyone has their own. as I've stated before, your mindset is what needs out, not how convincing you are. explain all your votes to me now, just as I have in that long post, if you can.
4. hmm I'll be taking that Potion of Truth then. isn't it strange that you didn't even think of verifying my alignment, and just want to convince everyone that I am scum? looks like you're desperate.
5. to me, being drunk is indicative of your alignment, as it's the only scum game I've seen from you.
Be grateful, always."
2. my votes are not poorly explained.
3. I’ve said about my votes what needs to be said. I’m not gonna try and rephrase or put more words to them. You have my reasons. Putting more sentences to them won’t change them.
4. I’m not desperate. I want the potion to be used by a player that can do great things when townconfirmed / can wreck us if scum. And I really think you’re scum and would love to lynch scum. Waiting another Day to get the strongest scumread to drink a potion makes no sense because that means lynching a less strong read toDay.
5. You keep saying things that make my conviction stronger. You really just said that you believe I only get drunk irl when I roll scum in mafia. That’s just... lol. FYI, it was my bf’s bday and I ended up drinking from noon until 4am.
@shadow: If you reveal which items you win at an auction, people will know what your auction number is because we know what number won which auction. The reverse is also true, if you reveal your number we'll know what items you win. I mean, what I'm getting at is that Togs and Vezok proposed essentially identical plans, which is what I thought Atog was referring to when he said he supported Vezok's plan.
Actually, I'm going to let Iso off the hook here I think.
Could you walk me through the "interacting with my buddy" mindset in these posts?
Because it looks.... genuinely frustrated that Vezok isn't responding to him more than it looks fake to me, and if it was unplanned it looks more like a conversation they should have had in scum chat? Like, maybe I'm crazy, but it seems to me that a scum player with day chat is unlikely to take their frustrations out on their partner in-thread unless they've just, given up on the game altogether which doesn't really mesh with Tog's other posts because he isn't totally focused on Vezok.
These words give me chills. What I hear is that you are offended by the assertion of being caught, not by the assertion that you are a cultist.
unvote
vote dawningbluesky
So yeh, I did think about it.
Early game especially Iso would be amazing as confirmed town.
@Mods: Could we have a vote count, please?
@Rhand: When have I ever been high priority night kill?
@Iso
There are times I can strongly read PHRAWN as town, and she's town. Currently, I feel her reads are coming from town (as in I understand them), but I'm not getting that same gut feel, so I'm not as certain right now.
I think this interaction looks scummy from Atog specifically and weird from Vezok not replying until pushed to do so, but that’s not what you’re asking me. Or at least that’s not what I got from your questions.
1. isn't sheeping normally scummy? I've seen Proph and Bur play over on my site, and they think the same way.
2. your explanations were short, with limited reasons.
3. I asked for you to link them as I did, not add more words to them. you wanted it easy, right? that is easy.
4. are you implying that I'm not a good player for town? allow me to say the same about you.
if my words weren't clear enough... I am town and I think you are scum for making an 'impossible read' on someone who has three witnesses to confirm the hard-to-read aspect. your read is obviously contrived.
5. I've seen you in Emperor Mafia - yes you were drunk there, and yes you were scum. so yes, I'm serious. if you take that as a taunt, then apologies if you thought that way. I don't need a detailed OoG explanation, but I'm asking OTHERS that isn't YOU, whether what I saw about a drunkscum!Rhand is real or not, amongst other things.
read above.
I always give someone chills :3
I am town
how real is that?
you should read my scumgame before you make assumptions. I do not like to assert anything, as either alignment. I'm aggressive and arrogant at times, yes, but I don't like to make my alignment that obvious. as mentioned before in ZE(and I guess others will have to confirm it), playing transparently/honestly takes away the fun of guessing. if you want to lynch me simply because I make guessing work hard, then you're obviously missing out on the fun. I'm not interested in making this game more fun for you either. good day.
Be grateful, always."