@DBS, forgot, but you say we should give Az the benefit of the doubt because he is putting in a good amount of effort. But you're willing to lynch Osie/Orb. Does this mean you don't think Osie has put a good amount of effort into this game?
@DBS, L-2 is usually the time where people ask for claims, but circumstances may change things. Actually, I claimed early for the same reason you did. My role didn't seem to jive with other claims, and I don't think my role is strong enough where outing it is going to make me a huge target.
my claiming early is more justified since nobody around here is familiar with my playstyle, and the claim was enough to put the brakes for everyone to realize their mistake. besides, it was to stop any possible rolefishing from happening.
your reason for claiming was only to save yourself, and it would have been ideal if you had the results before outing yourself. you aren't new to this community, so everyone shouldn't need to pause to read you. if you said it was for the same reason I claimed, then it is a scum followup to me.
As for "not a right or wrong way", perhaps you could refrain from bringing up accusations of game-throwing, then?
that was a valid accusation.
if Shinichi is town, he is making his team lose by wanting me lynched, or at least focusing his team's attention on a faulty player.
if Shinichi is scum, he is just trying to get himself lynched.
..... I thought of another possibility. he could be jester. that could be why we don't see any scum intent from him but he is adamant on being scumread. in that case, I'll take it back.
hard-tunneling on me is gamethrowing at this point, since we have plenty of information to work on and I have posted a lot...to place me as either scum, town, or for another Day. town is wasting its time by focusing on me.
Finally, you yourself said something to the effect of "my role will save me" or "you won't want to lynch me when you hear my role". You certainly made it seem like you being a vig implicitly made you town. Yet here you say that you shouldn't clear someone due to mechanics. So... which is it? Should town have disregarded your vig claim and continued to push you, or is it scummy for town to push you after you claimed vig?
I've said this before (to Phoenix I think?) that I only said "you wouldn't want me lynched" as an implication that I am town. it would be disappointing to lynch town, whether VT or PR. since it was true that I was PR, I let it slide when everyone assumed it. it was only assumptions that led to believing I was PR. when I claimed, I clearly said I was TOWN and VIG. nobody should trust my claim, as it is never a guarantee until the flip, but to say I am scum for claiming is scummy - relying on mechanics as an argument. town did push my claim, and I'm sure they have enough information to move on to better things that isn't me. regardless of my alignment, it would be unwise to focus on me who held focus for the entire first half of D1.
@DBS, forgot, but you say we should give Az the benefit of the doubt because he is putting in a good amount of effort. But you're willing to lynch Osie/Orb. Does this mean you don't think Osie has put a good amount of effort into this game?
Azrael has shown active re-evaluation of our current situation. in giving us the solid material we need, I'd say he's earned the benefit of doubt.
Osie's latest wall was an extensive ISO of everyone with only two scumreads to show for it. he has posted plenty of ISOs and questions, but non have aided evaluation of his extensive ISOs - where were the mentions of his questionnaires in helping his reads on us? his 'efforts' are only for appearance's sake. I don't like the way he asked me to do an ISO on DV and Iso...and further thought on that makes me think they both are indeed town (still not sure about Iso though lol).
ok now I really will sleep lol
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
Look how many times he's telling other people what and how they should think. It's a repeated theme, just in the last two pages of his posts.
What that tends to indicate is a mindset that's focused not on sharing his views, but on either A) controlling the flow of the town, or B) making sure the people he's interacting with notice what his stances are (such as hard-defending possible town power role DBS).
this, and it sort of flows into a sense of... putting on a show?
Little bits of, like, gameshow host banter that I've never seen from grapefruit before.
People who have played with Iso before. Do you buy that Iso is the kind of guy who is content having his reads ignore? Absolutely not! Iso, even more than me, normally can't stand when his opinions are ignored. Because following his opinions is how the town wins games, and even if he doesn't have a ton of time, Iso *loves* to win games.
Iso is third lock-scum.
this case looks like it comes from my reasoning, and az thinking im scum with him is a little lol. but aside from that, i think its right.
i already rambled on about this a bit but yeah. town iso wouldnt just, have his opinions and not care who listened. and no way jenna is the lynch of choice for someone that plays like iso
Last is still concerning to me, but he can come after I get some answers for the massive number of issues I've pointed out.
osi going after dv for moving his vote is not a Real Read of someone who has met DV before.
especially with as aware of meta as osi has become.
i do like a couple things in that post though. we feel the same way about lngrr, and i dont mind at all what hes saying to dawning.
though. dawning has made herself pretty easy to react to in a NAI way.
@DBS, as long as you keep posting, people are going to continue to interact with you. And is your opinion that voting you = gamethrowing at this stage? Can I accuse you then of gamethrowing if you vote me?
@tom: Your questions are adorable, but I have pointed out interactions between Jenna and other players that I think make them a viable scumteam. Have you been reading my posts? There is at least one specific instance where I speculate on Jenna/LW/at least one other person (IIRC) due to their interactions. Also, I know I responded to LW's post at some point (or at least quoted it with the intent to), so, what?
well, you didnt respond to that whisper post, and i dont think towniso lets that go.
I think Jenna is scum. I can't even parse #927. Where is the logic? This feels like reaching for a reason to place a vote somewhere. I don't currently want to lynch anyone other than Killjoy or Jenna toDay, and I admit that my Killjoy view may be colored by the fact that everyone else seems to think Killjoy is scum and I'm kind of annoyed at him, myself. His conspiracy theory on osi/LnGr is just so ridiculous it might have to come from town.
Her question towards Shin is valid, but based on Shin's response to it, I think that this was a grammatical flub (i.e. ambiguous pronouns) on Shin's behalf.
@Jenna: So, what was your trap? Expressing a view of the game drastically different from anything that makes a modicum of sense? Because that’s the primary reason I’m voting for you, the secondary being your state of perpetual catch-up. The tertiary, of course, is just that I don’t agree with practically anything you’ve said, so far. So if your trap was behaving extremely bizarrely in a manner cryptic to attempts to decipher the actions in your head, congratulations, you caught me in being unable to find the townie motives behind the entirety of your posting this game.
Does this mean you’ve been faking your view of the gamestate this entire time? If so, when will you be joining the rest of us? I’m eager to see your real reads.
where is this finding teammates thing?
and is not making sense really your only reasoning?
this is definitely not towniso, and jenna is someone he's trying to mislynch
hey good question.
his entire reasoning is in the spoiler in my last post
spoiler: its because she doesnt make sense
actually he has 3 reasons, and 2 of them are that she doesnt make sense. the other is that shes catching up?
Damn. Jenna might be scum. Her #220X posts are… flailing? I can't even quite tell. #2210…
~~~~~~
#222X Jenna posts…
WAIT, WHAT?!
This feels like Tom's endgame strategy from OTG III, but as a way to get out from pressure. And that's a concern. If she really is dropping the PR to defend herself, then I'd kinda like to hear it.
~~~~~~
L-3 seems like reasonable pressure. There's probably at least 1 scum on the wagon already, so all scum would have to wagon if she were to be hammered by scum.
Vote: Jenna
and for the record, this is what an opportunistic vote on jenna looks like.
she gets 5 votes, and osi promptly makes a post looking for reasons to jump on.
"oh damn maybe she is scum" "oh man its like [someone else's meta from that one time i saw scum with a self imposed posting restriction"
bollocks
DV
Shinichi
Kabazame BluesEclipse
tomsloger
Jenna Tolaria
lastwhisper
Megiddo
dawningbluesky
Iso
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
Grapefruit21
Azrael
Killjoy
LnGrrrR
osieorb18
Phoenix-Fire
Axelrod
I am town.
Shinichi I think slipped that he didn't really know how roles work in this game in such a natural way that I don't think it's ever faked. It matches with his claim later on. He's also been townie enough that I don't really need this but I've honestly not been paying attention to the shin v dawning thing thats been going on for awhile. Lock town.
Phoenix has just had a feel of... genuinely going after things. and even when they dont pan out hes taking those things and adding it to a macro view that makes sense.
Axel just keeps throwing himself wholeheartedly into solving whenever he's here. Mindmelds. Good approach. Good reactions.
kj. idk i dont necessarily like what kj is doing still but i pretty consistently like the way hes doing it. the progression is in his iso for all to see and i really feel like i can see the gears turning.
joe believes what he is saying. and his conviction seems highest when it would look better to hedge in a way thats usually stubborn town not no-****s-given scum.
tom
shin
phoenix
axel
kj
joe
DV
Kabazame BluesEclipse
Jenna Tolaria
lastwhisper
Megiddo
dawningbluesky
Iso
Grapefruit21
Azrael
LnGrrrR
osieorb18
az has finally started making solvey posts. a lot of them are good. theres more, like, getting reads on people via emotion than im really comfortable with but thats more of a personal preference than actually AI. theres some cause for concern, but aorn i agree with half his proposed team and im pretty content to work with him for now
Jenna i've already talked about a fair amount really but what it comes down to is I think she's just doing her thing and maybe i dont get her but she looks like a mislynch.
DV I'm still keeping that read to myself but I am putting him as the last person I'm actively townreading and leaving it at that.
Megs and kaba I'm just gonna go ahead and put at null, though megs has left a really slightly positive impression
tom
shin
phoenix
axel
kj
joe
az
jenna
DV
megs
kaba
lastwhisper
dawningbluesky
Iso
Grapefruit21
LnGrrrR
osieorb18
osi is feeling a little worse lately. hes unaligned with a bunch of people, but aorn none of them really look like scum. more in control than im used to. still have plans to reread his recent scumgame, see if theres any similarity there. super bad vote on jenna.
lngrr i thought was very scummy. his focus, his plan that doesnt quite make sense. but i did like his response to pressure, and the claim seems viable and >randtown
dawnings is self resolving and i dont feel like talking about her
tom
shin
phoenix
axel
kj
joe
az
jenna
DV
megs
kaba
osi
lngrr
dawning
lastwhisper
Iso
Grapefruit21
leaves me with 3 names
iso ive already talked about a bunch. he is not trying to solve this game.
whisper has got this constant TMI thing going on and i think he slipped knowing iso's role around the time of the cc
grapefruit is putting on a show, and little bonus, i think the joke townread on iso for me scumreading him became real when he needed to find a reason to townread a buddy in a really awkward way.
full list: tom/shin/phoenix/axel
kj/joe/az
jenna/DV
megs/kaba
osi/lngrr/dawning
iso/whisper/grape
take this as "would ally" the top 3 lines and "would betray" the bottom 3
I said I wasn't moving my vote off DBS, but obviously this vote isn't useful. So even though I'm unvoting DBS, for all intents and purposes that is where I would most want my vote to be.
Unvote
@everyone, do you think LW and GF are aligned or unaligned? Reasons?
Iso - I have Iso as a townlean. Az/Tom are stronger analysts than me to be sure, so they might be seeing things I'm not. I want to see how Iso defends himself first. I didn't like his, "Oh yay a Jenna wagon is forming" drive-by, but it's one post.
Jenna - I don't think Jenna is scum, and I don't think she is a good lynch. I don't like how fast her wagon formed, yet all the votes are town or townleans for me, which probably means I'm wrong on my Jenna read, or I'm wrong about the people on her wagon. Need to figure out which.
LW - Has sounded slightly better lately, but I'm still comfortable voting LW.
Orb - Nah, I'm not voting Orb.
GF - I haven't seen anything malicious or word-twisty from GF. He has gone rather quiet as of late, but I don't know if that's GF being quiet in a vacuum or GF being quiet relative to the insane pace of this game.
Here's my deal with jenna, her post count isn't too bad, but 90% of them don't actually say anything. When she does take a stance on players, it's just her same ally betray list every time that still has blueseclipse on it instead of kaba.
@jenna: give me a list of who you think is town and scum and why
@Toms ... Lol I did not scum slip... I don't know Iso's role and that post was about something entirely different...
@Grrr Everytime u pretend to do something you comments just end with, "Well I'm still ok with lynching LW", Also if you think Grape as been wholly town, then you are mistaken...
Also I agree with everything Alexrod is saying. Let's lynch LnGrrrR and figure it out tomorrow.
Is your reasoning purely Axelrod's or do you have additional thoughts? Do you simply disagree with LnGrrrR? Have you even said one word to him? If the answer is simply "I cannot understand LnGrrrR therefore I have a desire to maim that which I do not understand," then I must simply sigh again.
@Toms ... Lol I did not scum slip... I don't know Iso's role and that post was about something entirely different...
@Grrr Everytime u pretend to do something you comments just end with, "Well I'm still ok with lynching LW", Also if you think Grape as been wholly town, then you are mistaken...
I didn't say Grape was wholly town; he is a townlean for me at the moment. And just because I have liked some of your posts doesn't erase the posts I don't like. It's a weighing mechanism; continue to make good posts and my read on you will change. Make bad posts and it won't. *shrug*
*snip* "oh damn maybe she is scum" "oh man its like [someone else's meta from that one time i saw scum with a self imposed posting restriction"
bollocks
If town betray scum they lose the ability to use their own abilities
How do you know this?
I don't know for sure, but if scum have abilities that require bp use then obviously they would not want to be betrayed. Some people already stated their abilities cost BP, mine on the other hand does not.
That feels like a stretch of logic, but at the same time so obvious. Are you really saying nothing more than "someone without enough BP can't use abilities." Why apply that to mafia only?
If town betray scum they lose the ability to use their own abilities
How do you know this?
I don't know for sure, but if scum have abilities that require bp use then obviously they would not want to be betrayed. Some people already stated their abilities cost BP, mine on the other hand does not.
ok. my ability can only go off if I'm betrayed in the 1st AB game... I'm wondering if scum abilities require BP while town doesn't. makes sense with Iso and DV's pseudoclaims.
Noted. It seems odd to suggest the opposite for mafia, regarding the previous quote.
If town betray scum they lose the ability to use their own abilities
How do you know this?
I don't know for sure, but if scum have abilities that require bp use then obviously they would not want to be betrayed. Some people already stated their abilities cost BP, mine on the other hand does not.
ok. my ability can only go off if I'm betrayed in the 1st AB game... I'm wondering if scum abilities require BP while town doesn't. makes sense with Iso and DV's pseudoclaims.
I don't think they would give scum such an obvious tell, and this is quite shady. So what now your going to say your ability cost no BP?
Some quotes have clearly been mixed up. Is Dawningbluesky or Shinichi the one who must be betrayed?
The mechanical speculation on this page isn't going to help anyone solve the game. Do it, but keep it in your notes. No reason for it to be public.
And Shin I know you hate vigging N1, but it's not remotely a scum tell for people to say the claimed vig should shoot N1. It's not attempting to control the vig it's attempting to not have to lynch a strong PR that can clear itself. You don't need to know the target to assume an extra dead body in the morning is tied to the vig shot. Especially in this game if it happens N1. Before we have to worry about extra dead bodies from our prisoners dilemma games going awry.
@DBS so you admit you were trying to pocket Wisp in 1005? Are you trying to be scummy? Anyway LnGrrrR because his entrance to the game was awful (bad mechanical argument and excusing future bad votes on that mechanical analysis + rolefishing) and has done pretty much nothing townie since then. He also somewhat opportunistically hopped on your wagon.
And when do you suggest sharing said notes? Or are they a posthumous read? Why do you assume the AB game will fail? And your comment on LnGrrrR is a lie.
These are hallmarks of someone who is not looking out for your best interests. Like a ranch so bucolic that such behavior isn't even questioned.
Jenna, thanks for pointing out that quote. The specificity of DBS having to be betrayed the first Night sounded off to me, but if her ability only activates at 3 BP, I could see why she would word it in that way, as if she's allied N1, then the earliest she can fire it off is N4. (She will be at BP5 going into N2, then a betrayal puts her at BP4 going into N3, then another betrayal puts her at BP3 going into N4.)
Osie your point is literally DV is voting around a lot. I'm not ignoring your argument. That is your only argument.
I don't like strawmen either. That is not my argument.
My argument is that:
1. Many, if not most, of your votes seem conveniently opportunistic.
2. A number of your posts seem pockety.
3. A number of your flips seem sudden and inorganic.
4. It wasn't clear how genuine some of your paranoia was, especially towards Tom.
5. EVERY time I read you in ANY game, I feel like I have to ignore a decent selection of things that I wouldn't ignore for anyone else.
"I like X wagon, but... Hey X what do you think about this"
So asking people to elaborate on their reads to get a better understanding of what better players think and a better idea of who I think is scum is scummy now.
Questions do not equate to pressure. Votes do. You've voted like 11 times this game. For someone with as massive amount of posts you've sure sat for a long time just posting "Questions" with zero action.
So being cautious about my vote is scummy now? Like you've voted 13 times in 126 posts. Are you suggesting that I have to be voting in about 10% or so of my posts or I'm scummy? That's absurd.
I never said that. I said you've shopped a lot of wagons. Sure some of your votes were on wagons. But you also expressed liking multiple other wagons, but not having a concrete opinion on them.
You sat on KJ for 900 posts. Quite literally during that time shopping other wagons.
I said at the time I voted KJ. I was still suspicious of Dawning, and a lot of my posts in that time were trying to figure her out. I also didn't post for about 180 posts there, and there was the whole OoG back-and-forth with Dawning. I had some number of posts towards people who asked me questions. And I spent a lot of time working on rereading literally everyone. Killjoy asked me about my thoughts on LnGrrrR, and in part given that I'd recently ISO'd LnGrrrR, but in part also because most of my other ISOs were less certain on scumreads, I voted for LnGrrrR.
I don't know how you can say any of my votes seemed opportunistic since I was always like the third person or less on a wagon.
I'm certain a few of my posts are pockety.
I debate, I argue, I change reads.
IDK about the Tom thing. I wasn't really paranoid of Tom this game. I'm actually becoming paranoid.
K cool.
You literally denied what I said as not true. You literally established what I said as true. But still called it a lie and now are giving a reason that it is "Acceptable"
No asking people for reads isn't scummy. Shopping for opinions is though. You literally said "I think X wagon may have merit" but I'm not sure and asked someone else for their read while proceeding to sit on the same person.
You didn't pursue KJ during that time, you just sat on them. Permanently. But it was never like "Guys you should vote KJ because he is scummy"
Why should you be cautious with your votes? What?
Once again lets reflect here. You called all of these things lies.
Now you are accepting them all as true but are stating reasons for them not being scummy. Do you not see a problem here?
from the way DV tunneled on me, then backed off to start over + the way he focused on Killjoy's textwall + theory that scum could have Daychat + suspicion on Osie for explaining what roleblocking can do in MTGS..... all looks to me it was from a town mindset.
and before I forget.. can you explain why you considered me a scumlean when you had to explain how roleblocking works to me? if I was newbie!scum, my team should be giving me tips on how these things work around here, not sit back and watch me die. why, with that reason, am I a scumlean to you?
Not without daychat. I will readily admit that most of my scumlean on you has been based on anti-town posts. But I just don't have a scumlean on you in practice any more; maintaining it on paper has mostly been stubborn refusal to admit that I was wrong, beyond being busy IRL.
it's more of mechanical gameplay. modgaming is...suggesting the host wouldn't do this or that. if we're talking about balance, I'm sure we can rely on standard mechanics.
To me it's saying "I don't like X, so I don't think that Bur did X, and if he did, he's an [expletive]."
hmm I see. flailing is usually a display of frustration, and can happen as either alignment. but from the way you said it, LnG was cleared because he flailed, so I thought you took it as a towntell.
I found LnGrrrR's back-off from flailing to be organic town. Frustration can come from either alignment, as you said. Flailing can happen for a variety of reasons, and in this case, I found it to be okay. It's very much a case by case basis. Similarly, I eventually started to find that the "flailing" I saw in your posts was probably town, and I think you've brought it back and are posting much better now.
asking someone of how they would play has its merits though. it's like any questioning sequence but more informative, as you are directly asking about their playstyle. I've given you my playstyle in that recent questionnaire of yours, and I'm sure you found that informative regardless of my alignment - the same applies to me when I ask for self-meta, it is always informative. and yes, I am trying to be more agreeable now that my frustration phase is over.
is it in reference to this "are you looking for the standard tells, or are you looking for the mindset behind an action?"
in that case, I think we should be looking for the mindset. tells are blurred at this point, when a string of mislynches have been made the center of attention.
A wise mentor once said to me: "Everything in moderation." Hence, I find that focusing on either to the exclusion of the other is probably not prudent.
Osie, I don't consider his posts as fluff they are informative nonetheless but they havent really been pushing the game state forward.
I figured that it was at least partially my post with ISOs of nearly everyone that pushed the game forward, out of solely focusing on Dawning. Maybe I was giving myself too much credit, though.
Not only are there the issues I mentioned in my other recent post, but I also am concerned that the players who I believe should be best able to read D_V have made minimal comments on him and had minimal responses to my questioning on him, mostly just saying that they think he's town and moving on. That feels like people haven't read him and are derpclearing him, not like people actually think he's town.
Currently I have 1-2 scum in inactives (BluesEclipse, Megiddo, Jenna), though that is certainly open to change based on more posts from people who I am less than certain on.
Had any of us said anything at this point? This cannot possibly be a rational decision. What is your evidence?
Oh, that was completely process of elimination, which means it could certainly not be the case. I put people who haven't posted just below null, which means if there's fewer people in scumleans/scumreads than there are scum, it looks more likely that there's scum in inactives. But you and Megiddo are townleans now.
Wait, upon second glance I understand more. Guide me through the process, I want to see how you got there and hot it has changed with the change in Megiddo and I.
Both of you two went up to townleans some time after you started actually posting. I don't like holding early inactivity over someone to any significant degree all game; that just feels bad. As for recently... I found that changing out of the extreme gimmick without commenting on it was concerning, and I did support the wagon on you. Even if I liked the past and present thought process, the pure list posts don't look great, and Azrael is also pretty dang convincing when he wants to be.
Not only are there the issues I mentioned in my other recent post, but I also am concerned that the players who I believe should be best able to read D_V have made minimal comments on him and had minimal responses to my questioning on him, mostly just saying that they think he's town and moving on. That feels like people haven't read him and are derpclearing him, not like people actually think he's town.
Currently I have 1-2 scum in inactives (BluesEclipse, Megiddo, Jenna), though that is certainly open to change based on more posts from people who I am less than certain on.
Had any of us said anything at this point? This cannot possibly be a rational decision. What is your evidence?
Oh, that was completely process of elimination, which means it could certainly not be the case. I put people who haven't posted just below null, which means if there's fewer people in scumleans/scumreads than there are scum, it looks more likely that there's scum in inactives. But you and Megiddo are townleans now.
Wait, upon second glance I understand more. Guide me through the process, I want to see how you got there and hot it has changed with the change in Megiddo and I.
Both of you two went up to townleans some time after you started actually posting. I don't like holding early inactivity over someone to any significant degree all game; that just feels bad. As for recently... I found that changing out of the extreme gimmick without commenting on it was concerning, and I did support the wagon on you. Even if I liked the past and present thought process, the pure list posts don't look great, and Azrael is also pretty dang convincing when he wants to be.
Considering your own case on me is a hot mess and you keep refusing to back it up with anything.
I don't know if OSie is just scum stuck trying to force an opinion or what right now.
At this point I am not as certain about D_V any more. With each post I find rationality or an item I agree on. None strong enough to mention no less reopen dialogue with one so dull headed.
I don't believe that it's fair to suggest that D_V is ignorant, unintelligent, or the like. I respect the guy, I'm just concerned about some of his posting, leading me to believe that he's potentially scum, and I don't think that other people have spent enough time considering those issues.
I did find that I liked a number of his posts, though, so if my nagging fears from throughout this game become appropriately assuaged, which him stubbornly strawmanning my arguments against him affects negatively, I will be more than ready to embrace the idea of town!D_V once more.
Phoenix is still unappreciated, though only on an equivalence as Iso.
I get that Phoenix has potentially interacted with yourself and others in ways that you didn't care for. But stepping outside of that, there's a lot there as well that feels townie. Maybe rereading Phoenix's posts with an intent to be particularly objective might help?
Osieorb has fallen into a cosy patch of fluff and I have no desire to disturb him.
A lot of people have commented on how I'm posting "a lot of fluff," and:
1. It's not actually a particularly high portion of my posts, especially after the earlyish game.
2. I joke around some. It generally means that I (at least am trying to) enjoy the game. This is not alignment indicative.
3. I'm a verbose writer, at times, to a fault. That's been the case for years. Again, not alignment indicative.
4. "Your guerrilla insurgent is my founding father." Now and then, something that looks like fluff either A) isn't fluff, or B) provokes a useful response even if it is fluff.
I did read your post, and it doesn't tell me much except that a lot of everything you read is nai, and that I am still scum... Like you say the questionnaire didn't help my case? Well, explain why that is...
I didn't (and still don't) care for trying to use some of the answers to further an agenda of defending Dawning through shoehorning in some nay-saying of the manner in which people, myself in particular, are reading her. I honestly would have been less bothered if I had found the answers to provide no depth of insight into you as a player or person, rather than seeming disingenuous.
DV def isnt one of my scum leans, and I honestly dont think he is scum, his inconsistent vote pattern gets people more engage then sitting on a train for 1000 posts, hoping something will happen.
And here's another one. Why the snipe at me? This just isn't called for.
Im not avoiding the question, my scum leans are atleast the 3 i am somewhat certain of are Osi/Grrr/DBS. Tempted to add you there too, cause again you havent realy explained why u were defending dawn so much.
So you think I've tried to bus every single scumbuddy this game? What... even...
Now you are accepting them all as true but are stating reasons for them not being scummy.
I'm accepting that the objective facts are true. I'm not accepting that your subjective interpretation of the facts that you are trying to push as objective is true.
Now you are accepting them all as true but are stating reasons for them not being scummy.
I'm accepting that the objective facts are true. I'm not accepting that your subjective interpretation of the facts that you are trying to push as objective is true.
You literally said "Objectively false".
You then lost that argument and like a child are now saying you meant something else.
For all I know, you just looked at those posts briefly, said "this is an argument against me, so I'm going to poo-poo it," and went on your merry way. That does not lend much in the way of credence to this "your own case on me is a hot mess" line.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
my claiming early is more justified since nobody around here is familiar with my playstyle, and the claim was enough to put the brakes for everyone to realize their mistake. besides, it was to stop any possible rolefishing from happening.
your reason for claiming was only to save yourself, and it would have been ideal if you had the results before outing yourself. you aren't new to this community, so everyone shouldn't need to pause to read you. if you said it was for the same reason I claimed, then it is a scum followup to me.
that was a valid accusation.
if Shinichi is town, he is making his team lose by wanting me lynched, or at least focusing his team's attention on a faulty player.
if Shinichi is scum, he is just trying to get himself lynched.
..... I thought of another possibility. he could be jester. that could be why we don't see any scum intent from him but he is adamant on being scumread. in that case, I'll take it back.
hard-tunneling on me is gamethrowing at this point, since we have plenty of information to work on and I have posted a lot...to place me as either scum, town, or for another Day. town is wasting its time by focusing on me.
I've said this before (to Phoenix I think?) that I only said "you wouldn't want me lynched" as an implication that I am town. it would be disappointing to lynch town, whether VT or PR. since it was true that I was PR, I let it slide when everyone assumed it. it was only assumptions that led to believing I was PR. when I claimed, I clearly said I was TOWN and VIG. nobody should trust my claim, as it is never a guarantee until the flip, but to say I am scum for claiming is scummy - relying on mechanics as an argument. town did push my claim, and I'm sure they have enough information to move on to better things that isn't me. regardless of my alignment, it would be unwise to focus on me who held focus for the entire first half of D1.
Azrael has shown active re-evaluation of our current situation. in giving us the solid material we need, I'd say he's earned the benefit of doubt.
Osie's latest wall was an extensive ISO of everyone with only two scumreads to show for it. he has posted plenty of ISOs and questions, but non have aided evaluation of his extensive ISOs - where were the mentions of his questionnaires in helping his reads on us? his 'efforts' are only for appearance's sake. I don't like the way he asked me to do an ISO on DV and Iso...and further thought on that makes me think they both are indeed town (still not sure about Iso though lol).
ok now I really will sleep lol
Be grateful, always."
Little bits of, like, gameshow host banter that I've never seen from grapefruit before.
i already rambled on about this a bit but yeah. town iso wouldnt just, have his opinions and not care who listened. and no way jenna is the lynch of choice for someone that plays like iso
especially with as aware of meta as osi has become.
i do like a couple things in that post though. we feel the same way about lngrr, and i dont mind at all what hes saying to dawning.
though. dawning has made herself pretty easy to react to in a NAI way.
some people in this game probably remember me in 3 little pigs...
but no its not a typical thing I GUESS
@Iso, why is Jenna the best lynch?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
as for jenna...
*looks*
and is not making sense really your only reasoning?
this is definitely not towniso, and jenna is someone he's trying to mislynch
his entire reasoning is in the spoiler in my last post
spoiler: its because she doesnt make sense
actually he has 3 reasons, and 2 of them are that she doesnt make sense. the other is that shes catching up?
lol scumiso
(you were already on her, for reference)
she gets 5 votes, and osi promptly makes a post looking for reasons to jump on.
"oh damn maybe she is scum" "oh man its like [someone else's meta from that one time i saw scum with a self imposed posting restriction"
bollocks
Shinichi
Kabazame BluesEclipse
tomsloger
Jenna Tolaria
lastwhisper
Megiddo
dawningbluesky
Iso
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
Grapefruit21
Azrael
Killjoy
LnGrrrR
osieorb18
Phoenix-Fire
Axelrod
I am town.
Shinichi I think slipped that he didn't really know how roles work in this game in such a natural way that I don't think it's ever faked. It matches with his claim later on. He's also been townie enough that I don't really need this but I've honestly not been paying attention to the shin v dawning thing thats been going on for awhile. Lock town.
Phoenix has just had a feel of... genuinely going after things. and even when they dont pan out hes taking those things and adding it to a macro view that makes sense.
Axel just keeps throwing himself wholeheartedly into solving whenever he's here. Mindmelds. Good approach. Good reactions.
kj. idk i dont necessarily like what kj is doing still but i pretty consistently like the way hes doing it. the progression is in his iso for all to see and i really feel like i can see the gears turning.
joe believes what he is saying. and his conviction seems highest when it would look better to hedge in a way thats usually stubborn town not no-****s-given scum.
tom
shin
phoenix
axel
kj
joe
DV
Kabazame BluesEclipse
Jenna Tolaria
lastwhisper
Megiddo
dawningbluesky
Iso
Grapefruit21
Azrael
LnGrrrR
osieorb18
az has finally started making solvey posts. a lot of them are good. theres more, like, getting reads on people via emotion than im really comfortable with but thats more of a personal preference than actually AI. theres some cause for concern, but aorn i agree with half his proposed team and im pretty content to work with him for now
Jenna i've already talked about a fair amount really but what it comes down to is I think she's just doing her thing and maybe i dont get her but she looks like a mislynch.
DV I'm still keeping that read to myself but I am putting him as the last person I'm actively townreading and leaving it at that.
Megs and kaba I'm just gonna go ahead and put at null, though megs has left a really slightly positive impression
tom
shin
phoenix
axel
kj
joe
az
jenna
DV
megs
kaba
lastwhisper
dawningbluesky
Iso
Grapefruit21
LnGrrrR
osieorb18
osi is feeling a little worse lately. hes unaligned with a bunch of people, but aorn none of them really look like scum. more in control than im used to. still have plans to reread his recent scumgame, see if theres any similarity there. super bad vote on jenna.
lngrr i thought was very scummy. his focus, his plan that doesnt quite make sense. but i did like his response to pressure, and the claim seems viable and >randtown
dawnings is self resolving and i dont feel like talking about her
tom
shin
phoenix
axel
kj
joe
az
jenna
DV
megs
kaba
osi
lngrr
dawning
lastwhisper
Iso
Grapefruit21
leaves me with 3 names
iso ive already talked about a bunch. he is not trying to solve this game.
whisper has got this constant TMI thing going on and i think he slipped knowing iso's role around the time of the cc
grapefruit is putting on a show, and little bonus, i think the joke townread on iso for me scumreading him became real when he needed to find a reason to townread a buddy in a really awkward way.
full list:
tom/shin/phoenix/axel
kj/joe/az
jenna/DV
megs/kaba
osi/lngrr/dawning
iso/whisper/grape
take this as "would ally" the top 3 lines and "would betray" the bottom 3
jenna (5): iso, az, joe, dv, osi
osi (2): kj, whisper
whisper (2): phoenix, grape
dawning (2): shin, lngrr
iso (2): jenna, tom
grape (1): dawning
Not Voting (3): megs, axel, kaba
Jenna Tolaria (5): Iso, Azrael, TheRealStinkyJoeTerry, D_V, osieorb18
dawningbluesky (2): Shinichi, LnGrrrR
Lastwhisper (2): Phoenix-Fire, Grapefruit21
osieorb18 (2): Killjoy, Lastwhisper
Iso (2): Jenna Tolaria, tomsloger
Grapefruit21 (1): dawningbluesky
Not Voting (3): Megiddo, Axelrod, Kabazame
With 17 alive, it’s 9 to lynch. The deadline is Tuesday, November 7th at 11.59 pm EST.
Osieorb, LnGrrrR, and LastWhisper have confusing votes.
Unvote
@everyone, do you think LW and GF are aligned or unaligned? Reasons?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Looking at current wagons:
Iso - I have Iso as a townlean. Az/Tom are stronger analysts than me to be sure, so they might be seeing things I'm not. I want to see how Iso defends himself first. I didn't like his, "Oh yay a Jenna wagon is forming" drive-by, but it's one post.
Jenna - I don't think Jenna is scum, and I don't think she is a good lynch. I don't like how fast her wagon formed, yet all the votes are town or townleans for me, which probably means I'm wrong on my Jenna read, or I'm wrong about the people on her wagon. Need to figure out which.
LW - Has sounded slightly better lately, but I'm still comfortable voting LW.
Orb - Nah, I'm not voting Orb.
GF - I haven't seen anything malicious or word-twisty from GF. He has gone rather quiet as of late, but I don't know if that's GF being quiet in a vacuum or GF being quiet relative to the insane pace of this game.
Vote Lastwhisper
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Jenna, why do you have a townread on LW and DBS? Why a scumread on GF?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
@jenna: give me a list of who you think is town and scum and why
@Grrr Everytime u pretend to do something you comments just end with, "Well I'm still ok with lynching LW", Also if you think Grape as been wholly town, then you are mistaken...
Doesn't grape this game remind you of Roz's Alien mafia game?
I didn't say Grape was wholly town; he is a townlean for me at the moment. And just because I have liked some of your posts doesn't erase the posts I don't like. It's a weighing mechanism; continue to make good posts and my read on you will change. Make bad posts and it won't. *shrug*
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
I know it's not the exact same, but I laughed anyways.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
These are hallmarks of someone who is not looking out for your best interests. Like a ranch so bucolic that such behavior isn't even questioned.
Vote: Grapefruit21
Did you sleep well?
Among my failure to understand this post were these phrases
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
I don't like strawmen either. That is not my argument.
My argument is that:
1. Many, if not most, of your votes seem conveniently opportunistic.
2. A number of your posts seem pockety.
3. A number of your flips seem sudden and inorganic.
4. It wasn't clear how genuine some of your paranoia was, especially towards Tom.
5. EVERY time I read you in ANY game, I feel like I have to ignore a decent selection of things that I wouldn't ignore for anyone else.
So a tunnel on someone who I think is scummy is scummy now.
So asking people to elaborate on their reads to get a better understanding of what better players think and a better idea of who I think is scum is scummy now.
So being cautious about my vote is scummy now? Like you've voted 13 times in 126 posts. Are you suggesting that I have to be voting in about 10% or so of my posts or I'm scummy? That's absurd.
I said at the time I voted KJ. I was still suspicious of Dawning, and a lot of my posts in that time were trying to figure her out. I also didn't post for about 180 posts there, and there was the whole OoG back-and-forth with Dawning. I had some number of posts towards people who asked me questions. And I spent a lot of time working on rereading literally everyone. Killjoy asked me about my thoughts on LnGrrrR, and in part given that I'd recently ISO'd LnGrrrR, but in part also because most of my other ISOs were less certain on scumreads, I voted for LnGrrrR.
I'm certain a few of my posts are pockety.
I debate, I argue, I change reads.
IDK about the Tom thing. I wasn't really paranoid of Tom this game. I'm actually becoming paranoid.
K cool.
You literally denied what I said as not true. You literally established what I said as true. But still called it a lie and now are giving a reason that it is "Acceptable"
No asking people for reads isn't scummy. Shopping for opinions is though. You literally said "I think X wagon may have merit" but I'm not sure and asked someone else for their read while proceeding to sit on the same person.
You didn't pursue KJ during that time, you just sat on them. Permanently. But it was never like "Guys you should vote KJ because he is scummy"
Why should you be cautious with your votes? What?
Once again lets reflect here. You called all of these things lies.
Now you are accepting them all as true but are stating reasons for them not being scummy. Do you not see a problem here?
Not without daychat. I will readily admit that most of my scumlean on you has been based on anti-town posts. But I just don't have a scumlean on you in practice any more; maintaining it on paper has mostly been stubborn refusal to admit that I was wrong, beyond being busy IRL.
To me it's saying "I don't like X, so I don't think that Bur did X, and if he did, he's an [expletive]."
I found LnGrrrR's back-off from flailing to be organic town. Frustration can come from either alignment, as you said. Flailing can happen for a variety of reasons, and in this case, I found it to be okay. It's very much a case by case basis. Similarly, I eventually started to find that the "flailing" I saw in your posts was probably town, and I think you've brought it back and are posting much better now.
Fair, and thank you.
A wise mentor once said to me: "Everything in moderation." Hence, I find that focusing on either to the exclusion of the other is probably not prudent.
I figured that it was at least partially my post with ISOs of nearly everyone that pushed the game forward, out of solely focusing on Dawning. Maybe I was giving myself too much credit, though.
Not only are there the issues I mentioned in my other recent post, but I also am concerned that the players who I believe should be best able to read D_V have made minimal comments on him and had minimal responses to my questioning on him, mostly just saying that they think he's town and moving on. That feels like people haven't read him and are derpclearing him, not like people actually think he's town.
Both of you two went up to townleans some time after you started actually posting. I don't like holding early inactivity over someone to any significant degree all game; that just feels bad. As for recently... I found that changing out of the extreme gimmick without commenting on it was concerning, and I did support the wagon on you. Even if I liked the past and present thought process, the pure list posts don't look great, and Azrael is also pretty dang convincing when he wants to be.
Considering your own case on me is a hot mess and you keep refusing to back it up with anything.
I don't know if OSie is just scum stuck trying to force an opinion or what right now.
I don't believe that it's fair to suggest that D_V is ignorant, unintelligent, or the like. I respect the guy, I'm just concerned about some of his posting, leading me to believe that he's potentially scum, and I don't think that other people have spent enough time considering those issues.
I did find that I liked a number of his posts, though, so if my nagging fears from throughout this game become appropriately assuaged, which him stubbornly strawmanning my arguments against him affects negatively, I will be more than ready to embrace the idea of town!D_V once more.
I get that Phoenix has potentially interacted with yourself and others in ways that you didn't care for. But stepping outside of that, there's a lot there as well that feels townie. Maybe rereading Phoenix's posts with an intent to be particularly objective might help?
He got better from my perspective...
A lot of people have commented on how I'm posting "a lot of fluff," and:
1. It's not actually a particularly high portion of my posts, especially after the earlyish game.
2. I joke around some. It generally means that I (at least am trying to) enjoy the game. This is not alignment indicative.
3. I'm a verbose writer, at times, to a fault. That's been the case for years. Again, not alignment indicative.
4. "Your guerrilla insurgent is my founding father." Now and then, something that looks like fluff either A) isn't fluff, or B) provokes a useful response even if it is fluff.
I didn't (and still don't) care for trying to use some of the answers to further an agenda of defending Dawning through shoehorning in some nay-saying of the manner in which people, myself in particular, are reading her. I honestly would have been less bothered if I had found the answers to provide no depth of insight into you as a player or person, rather than seeming disingenuous.
And here's another one. Why the snipe at me? This just isn't called for.
So you think I've tried to bus every single scumbuddy this game? What... even...
Not now that I got back to the thread.
Not actually why I went after him, as I've elaborated.
What are you talking about?
I'm accepting that the objective facts are true. I'm not accepting that your subjective interpretation of the facts that you are trying to push as objective is true.
I already explained this in this post, at the end.
You literally said "Objectively false".
You then lost that argument and like a child are now saying you meant something else.
Neither you nor anyone else have actually seriously spent time to address the primary two posts in which I presented my case:
#1924 and #2105.
For all I know, you just looked at those posts briefly, said "this is an argument against me, so I'm going to poo-poo it," and went on your merry way. That does not lend much in the way of credence to this "your own case on me is a hot mess" line.