I'm a triple cloaker. I make 3 people untargetable for 1 night only. I didn't claim it initially, but I have to be one of the three targets and in the pm it suggests that it resolves before any other abilities. I was willing to claim because I'd be targeting myself and I knew it would go through.
This answer sounds resoundingly town, I really can't see Grape explaining it this way as scum, ever.
Behaviorally, I just can't away from the scum team being shadow/sjt/newcomb. I guess Cantrip and Rhand(it would literally have to be both) could be pulling a super fast one on us, but that just isn't how the gamestate feels to me.
I'm a triple cloaker. I make 3 people untargetable for 1 night only. I didn't claim it initially, but I have to be one of the three targets and in the pm it suggests that it resolves before any other abilities. I was willing to claim because I'd be targeting myself and I knew it would go through.
This answer sounds resoundingly town, I really can't see Grape explaining it this way as scum, ever.
/barn
Quote from Cyan »
Behaviorally, I just can't away from the scum team being shadow/sjt/newcomb. I guess Cantrip and Rhand(it would literally have to be both) could be pulling a super fast one on us, but that just isn't how the gamestate feels to me.
My phone is having significant issues with the screen to the point that I may need to purchase a new one. I will be trying to post like normal, but I wanted to give a heads up in case it dies completely and I'm gone for a day or two.
Cyan: Quix is significantly more likely to be scum with Rhand than Cantrip is.
Well, it would have to be Rhand + somebody. And the only other option for that somebody is Quix, whom I think is behaviorally town to the utmost. I thought this was the case before the Rhand v Mind thing even started. I also thought that the person he replaced in for was town. In my experience, it's exceedingly rare that a person and their replacement both come across as town while they are actually scum.
Also, I can't see Cantrip asking this as scum. It makes no sense for him to do so. So the scum team is either exactly shadow, sjt, newcomb or exactly rhand, quix, newcomb, in my mind.
I've already given my thoughts on Quix, and Rhand has made some off the cuff comments(like asking me to promise to revist everything if I end up being the last person alive with shadow and grape, among others) that I just don't see a scum bothering with.
In the end I'm just back where I started. And if we're going to mislynch SJT and lose the game, I'd rather do it now than waste a bunch more time.
I don't see any point in lynching Newcomb first, because I don't think anything in my mind is going to change. Especially now that it's being forced as an issue like this, if we woke up tomorrow and Rhand, myself, and Quix were all still alive, I'd just assume the scum were trying to WIFOM us. I guess the scum could NK me and try and cram that down someone else' throat instead, but I'll pass.
My vote is staying on SJT. I'm definitely willing to listen to what Quix has to say here, though.
Also, I can't see Cantrip asking this as scum. It makes no sense for him to do so. So the scum team is either exactly shadow, sjt, newcomb or exactly rhand, quix, newcomb, in my mind.
I've already given my thoughts on Quix, and Rhand has made some off the cuff comments(like asking me to promise to revist everything if I end up being the last person alive with shadow and grape, among others) that I just don't see a scum bothering with.
In the end I'm just back where I started. And if we're going to mislynch SJT and lose the game, I'd rather do it now than waste a bunch more time.
So you know I'm a mislynch right? How many more slips will this take?
I don't see any point in lynching Newcomb first, because I don't think anything in my mind is going to change. Especially now that it's being forced as an issue like this, if we woke up tomorrow and Rhand, myself, and Quix were all still alive, I'd just assume the scum were trying to WIFOM us. I guess the scum could NK me and try and cram that down someone else' throat instead, but I'll pass.
My vote is staying on SJT. I'm definitely willing to listen to what Quix has to say here, though.
While I recognize the potential for huge amounts of WIFOM, I worry that you might be letting apathy get the better of you here. You've wanted this game to be over for so long that I don't know if you care all that much about winning anymore.
That's clearly not what I'm saying. It's pitiful that this is the best argument that you can come up with, and only cements you as scum in my mind. I literally said 'if this is going to happen'.
I'm saying that, if you're town and we're going to lose the game lynching you, I'd rather just get it over with. You should understand this, because I'm pretty sure you made the exact same argument in favor of us lynching you on Monday or so.
@shadow: Just to be clear, when the game is over and your scum team has lost, you can place most of that blame on SJT's shoulders. The arguments he's making are atrocious and were never going to sway anyone.
That's clearly not what I'm saying. It's pitiful that this is the best argument that you can come up with, and only cements you as scum in my mind. I literally said 'if this is going to happen'.
I'm saying that, if you're town and we're going to lose the game lynching you, I'd rather just get it over with. You should understand this, because I'm pretty sure you made the exact same argument in favor of us lynching you on Monday or so.
@shadow: Just to be clear, when the game is over and your scum team has lost, you can place most of that blame on SJT's shoulders. The arguments he's making are atrocious and were never going to sway anyone.
Oh I don't disagree that his argument there was bad, but if he's on my team I won't know it until he's dead or town wins.
Don't try to belittle my arguments into apathy. I have wanted out of the game for awhile, that's undeniable. But that didn't happen, so I'm still going to do everything I can to ensure that I win in situations like this one.
Oh I don't disagree that his argument there was bad, but if he's on my team I won't know it until he's dead or town wins.
Fine, so if Newcomb is scum in any world you can envision, why isn't lynching him your fastest path to victory? Talk me through this logically. Cause right now your argument is that lynching Terry is better done sooner than later because you're going to want to regardless, which sounds to me like apathy.
It's not apathy, my mind is just fully resolved that Terry is scum, and nothing else matters. I'm not inclined to give you guys time to weasel your way out of him being lynched by lynching Newcomb first and having to deal with whatever WIFOM nonsense you come up with for not killing quix.
Accordingly, if it turns out that Terry is town and we're going to lose due to lynching him, I'd rather just get it out of the way now and save time than have to have the same arguments over and over for another 2 weeks.
I also don't want to give you guys a chance to NK me and try and manipulate people that are, in my estimation, less resolute than I am.
It's also not at all lost on me that you're pivoting your argument to essentially arguing that Terry is town, despite going out of your way earlier to tell me that you thought he was scum.
It's not apathy, my mind is just fully resolved that Terry is scum, and nothing else matters. I'm not inclined to give you guys time to weasel your way out of him being lynched by lynching Newcomb first and having to deal with whatever WIFOM nonsense you come up with for not killing quix.
Accordingly, if it turns out that Terry is town and we're going to lose due to lynching him, I'd rather just get it out of the way now and save time than have to have the same arguments over and over for another 2 weeks.
I also don't want to give you guys a chance to NK me and try and manipulate people that are, in my estimation, less resolute than I am.
It's also not at all lost on me that you're pivoting your argument to essentially arguing that Terry is town, despite going out of your way earlier to tell me that you thought he was scum.
Oh I am not. Where have I even implied that I thought he was town? Like actually thought it, not Devils advocate said it. And quite frankly, if I was scum I would have killed you last night and saved hunt for tonight to really mess with the WIFOM.
Cyan my biggest hitch with just lynching Terry and calling it a day is his comments to you about being /out any game you're in. I really have trouble swallowing that as a scum play because he'd know you're in the right. That's the whole reason I've gone devils advocate in the first place.
Oh I am not. Where have I even implied that I thought he was town? Like actually thought it, not Devils advocate said it. And quite frankly, if I was scum I would have killed you last night and saved hunt for tonight to really mess with the WIFOM.
I've given some thought as to why Hunt died last Night, and I'm guessing that it's mostly because scum suspected their strongman had a high chance of getting lynched toDay. Possibly a side of "rather kill conf!town!Hunt and keep Rhand!wifom alive". I'd like to say that points to Terry as strongman, but there's entirely too much wine there.
Cyan my biggest hitch with just lynching Terry and calling it a day is his comments to you about being /out any game you're in. I really have trouble swallowing that as a scum play because he'd know you're in the right. That's the whole reason I've gone devils advocate in the first place.
So, despite my question above to Cyan (THAT HE DIDN'T ANSWER, JUST LIKE THE REST OF THIS GAME), I similarly can't see scum!Cyan taking the stances he's taken regarding playing dirty and Terry's play. So either one of them is "playing dirty", both of them are (and have justified it because they're both scum), or they're both town. Is the latter a possibility?
Oh I am not. Where have I even implied that I thought he was town? Like actually thought it, not Devils advocate said it. And quite frankly, if I was scum I would have killed you last night and saved hunt for tonight to really mess with the WIFOM.
I've given some thought as to why Hunt died last Night, and I'm guessing that it's mostly because scum suspected their strongman had a high chance of getting lynched toDay. Possibly a side of "rather kill conf!town!Hunt and keep Rhand!wifom alive". I'd like to say that points to Terry as strongman, but there's entirely too much wine there.
Cyan my biggest hitch with just lynching Terry and calling it a day is his comments to you about being /out any game you're in. I really have trouble swallowing that as a scum play because he'd know you're in the right. That's the whole reason I've gone devils advocate in the first place.
So, despite my question above to Cyan (THAT HE DIDN'T ANSWER, JUST LIKE THE REST OF THIS GAME), I similarly can't see scum!Cyan taking the stances he's taken regarding playing dirty and Terry's play. So either one of them is "playing dirty", both of them are (and have justified it because they're both scum), or they're both town. Is the latter a possibility?
if the team is Rhand plus 2 of Quix/newcomb/grape, they they both could be. I briefly considered that both are playing dirty, but cyan has what I would consider "dirty as scum" actions independent of Terry so I don't think they could both be.
Also, the hunt kill says to me that a team with Rhand on it is going for the win today, which points to a town!terry. So I agree, Terry is likely either town or strongman.
Cyan my biggest hitch with just lynching Terry and calling it a day is his comments to you about being /out any game you're in. I really have trouble swallowing that as a scum play because he'd know you're in the right. That's the whole reason I've gone devils advocate in the first place.
Dear Mod,
This is exactly why I PMed you to say, and still maintain that, Terry should have been modkilled after that string of posts. This not something that a townie(I'm not saying shadow is town, but he's certainly willing to use this ***** to his advantage apparently) should ever have to work their way through. Some other dude got modkilled literally because a replacement couldn't be found. This is unacceptable.
Cyan my biggest hitch with just lynching Terry and calling it a day is his comments to you about being /out any game you're in. I really have trouble swallowing that as a scum play because he'd know you're in the right. That's the whole reason I've gone devils advocate in the first place.
Dear Mod,
This is exactly why I PMed you to say, and still maintain that, Terry should have been modkilled after that string of posts. This not something that a townie(I'm not saying shadow is town, but he's certainly willing to use this ***** to his advantage apparently) should ever have to work their way through. Some other dude got modkilled literally because a replacement couldn't be found. This is unacceptable.
While I agree I shouldn't have to, I do. If the mod was going to kill terry, he'd probably have to kill you for basically the same type of crap, but I'm pretty sure that the integrity of the game would be shot, and I'd rather finish this game hoping the best of people than break this game with more mod kills.
Cyan my biggest hitch with just lynching Terry and calling it a day is his comments to you about being /out any game you're in. I really have trouble swallowing that as a scum play because he'd know you're in the right. That's the whole reason I've gone devils advocate in the first place.
Dear Mod,
This is exactly why I PMed you to say, and still maintain that, Terry should have been modkilled after that string of posts. This not something that a townie(I'm not saying shadow is town, but he's certainly willing to use this ***** to his advantage apparently) should ever have to work their way through. Some other dude got modkilled literally because a replacement couldn't be found. This is unacceptable.
This is such BS, my choice of what games I play in are not Modkillable even if I were scum, but I'm not and that's probably why the mod just ignored your whining. I would have been 100% ok being Mod-Killed for my drunk night post with mobile complications on timing (which upon further review, in the OP is actually is NOT a mod-killable offense), but to PM the mod complaining that I should be mod-killed for stating that you have played this game in a way where you are either scum or town playing against your wincon is such effing crap. Your pissed off because I'm your logical game-winning mislynch, but you can't do it because I'm doing everything in my power to prove that I'm town and making some progress.
I really, really dislike the "for lack of a better term" thing in the claim post. He later amended it, but that facet of the post really feels like he's just making it up.
So we have a "Desperado" dead on the ground. Bur didn't claim that his role name either, btw. They just aren't descriptive, and the role powers are pretty specific. For lack of a better response: I chose clarity over accuracy. pbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbttt
The other post kind of just is a mindset thing where it makes me squint my eyes and go "Gee, I wonder why you killed him Night One, then". Vaguely slip-ish, but it's almost too blatant.
Quick question quix, how can I be "almost" "too" "blatant". I understand what you're saying. That scum would be like "yeah killed GJ cause he breadcrumbed vig". So scum!me then comes into the thread and says "geez, I'm surprised he's VT, had him pegged as a vig". That's not "almost" blatant. That's exactly what it would be. Blatant. Why the hedging language (almost, too)? Vote me, and call a spade a spade.
Unvote, Vote Quix. Voting dead town does nothing, so have some OMGUS.
I was re reading some stuff on my phone and saw this. Consider this a note to remind myself to go back and figure out why mindreaver is talking about role names at this point. I don't think shadow had claimed name xop yet, but I need to double check. My battery is almost dead.
So this is really interesting, I confirmed that Shadow had not claimed his role at all except for the fact that it was a targeting role. Why would Mindrevaer say "Bur didn't claim that his role name either, btw." Why would that be something he even considered important unless he already knew Shadow was a name cop? I still can't figure out why scum would have a Role Blocker/VT Cop AND a flavor cop, but this is a pretty interesting point. Can someone please attempt to explain to me why Mind would say that if he didn't know Shadow was a Name Cop?
We(the town) are far more incline to see shadow as possible town than you, and he isn't resorting to scumbag tactics like you are. Nice try though scum.
I really, really dislike the "for lack of a better term" thing in the claim post. He later amended it, but that facet of the post really feels like he's just making it up.
So we have a "Desperado" dead on the ground. Bur didn't claim that his role name either, btw. They just aren't descriptive, and the role powers are pretty specific. For lack of a better response: I chose clarity over accuracy. pbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbttt
The other post kind of just is a mindset thing where it makes me squint my eyes and go "Gee, I wonder why you killed him Night One, then". Vaguely slip-ish, but it's almost too blatant.
Quick question quix, how can I be "almost" "too" "blatant". I understand what you're saying. That scum would be like "yeah killed GJ cause he breadcrumbed vig". So scum!me then comes into the thread and says "geez, I'm surprised he's VT, had him pegged as a vig". That's not "almost" blatant. That's exactly what it would be. Blatant. Why the hedging language (almost, too)? Vote me, and call a spade a spade.
Unvote, Vote Quix. Voting dead town does nothing, so have some OMGUS.
I was re reading some stuff on my phone and saw this. Consider this a note to remind myself to go back and figure out why mindreaver is talking about role names at this point. I don't think shadow had claimed name xop yet, but I need to double check. My battery is almost dead.
So this is really interesting, I confirmed that Shadow had not claimed his role at all except for the fact that it was a targeting role. Why would Mindrevaer say "Bur didn't claim that his role name either, btw." Why would that be something he even considered important unless he already knew Shadow was a name cop? I still can't figure out why scum would have a Role Blocker/VT Cop AND a flavor cop, but this is a pretty interesting point. Can someone please attempt to explain to me why Mind would say that if he didn't know Shadow was a Name Cop?
Never mind, he was referring to "Desperado". That makes more sense.
Terry, mind was referring to bur not claiming desperado, his a ability name, not his flavor name. This was part of mind's defense to his "Vanilla cop for lack of a better term" phrasing.
We(the town) are far more incline to see shadow as possible town than you, and he isn't resorting to scumbag tactics like you are. Nice try though scum.
Sorry Cyan, but you've had a lot of slips this game. How about the one on Day 1, when you asked to get Vigged instead of Night Killed? Also, do you remember when I said you were scum from early on and you tried to mislynch me and it didn't work out because I was pretty clearly town at that point? Then for a little bit I said you could be town and then you decided I was town, and as soon I thought you were scum again you thought I was scum? That's pretty OMGUS right? Remember that post that cantrip wrote that was like 10 feet long all about how you are scum? That was cool too right? I got to hand it to him, I started to make a post about all the scummy things you had done and ran out of time because it was so long, so kudos to cantrip for that show of endurance because that's a lot of scummy stuff you did this game. Come at me Cyan. I made one miscalculation yesterday and I know it's costing the town right now, but I'm am busting my balls to correct this. If it's not clear that I'm town by now you are scum or [REDACTED]. Try to mislynch me, let's go. Let's see your case on me. I hope it's better than the last one you tried to mislynch me with. I'm the first to admit, I picked Mindreaver over Rhand yesterday in the end, but think about it. I'll be right back with some thought juice for your Pina Scumlada.
Okay, both of you need to step back and probably ignore each other. I recognize that you want to lynch each other and that's fine, but this doesn't have to be done with malice.
Okay, both of you need to step back and probably ignore each other. I recognize that you want to lynch each other and that's fine, but this doesn't have to be done with malice.
No, you are wrong, but it's a great opportunity to point the difference out.
I'm not trying to lynch Cyan right now. He's pushing a mislynch super hard and keeps pushing harder the farther it falls out of his grasp. There is a better lynch than Cyan today. Since I'm town, I care about that stuff.
Okay, both of you need to step back and probably ignore each other. I recognize that you want to lynch each other and that's fine, but this doesn't have to be done with malice.
No, you are wrong, but it's a great opportunity to point the difference out.
I'm not trying to lynch Cyan right now. He's pushing a mislynch super hard and keeps pushing harder the farther it falls out of his grasp. There is a better lynch than Cyan today. Since I'm town, I care about that stuff.
Don't try to belittle my arguments into apathy. I have wanted out of the game for awhile, that's undeniable. But that didn't happen, so I'm still going to do everything I can to ensure that I win in situations like this one.
Oh I don't disagree that his argument there was bad, but if he's on my team I won't know it until he's dead or town wins.
Okay, both of you need to step back and probably ignore each other. I recognize that you want to lynch each other and that's fine, but this doesn't have to be done with malice.
No, you are wrong, but it's a great opportunity to point the difference out.
I'm not trying to lynch Cyan right now. He's pushing a mislynch super hard and keeps pushing harder the farther it falls out of his grasp. There is a better lynch than Cyan today. Since I'm town, I care about that stuff.
I ended Day 2 with a hard push on Mindreaver. I was incredibly upset that it didn't happen and you mislynched KJ instead. I came in Day 3 convince nothing in this world could convince Mind isn't scum. Mind made has claim, I called BS right away, but before Rhand came in to deny the result I re-read my role PM and started mod-guessing and thought I could solve the game by figuring out who I was the back up to. I 180ed and believed Mindreaver over Rhand due to role speculation.
In a world where I am scum, coming into Day 3 with Mindreaver bus on my mind and Rhand basically CCs Mindreaver, I just continue to bus Mindreaver, not try to save him. COME ON MAN!
I ended Day 2 with a hard push on Mindreaver. I was incredibly upset that it didn't happen and you mislynched KJ instead. I came in Day 3 convince nothing in this world could convince Mind isn't scum. Mind made has claim, I called BS right away, but before Rhand came in to deny the result I re-read my role PM and started mod-guessing and thought I could solve the game by figuring out who I was the back up to. I 180ed and believed Mindreaver over Rhand due to role speculation.
In a world where I am scum, coming into Day 3 with Mindreaver bus on my mind and Rhand basically CCs Mindreaver, I just continue to bus Mindreaver, not try to save him. COME ON MAN!
Suck on that Thought Juice.
In a world where you are scum and Rhand is town and you believed you had a win? This is not a good argument for town you.
I've got some tough rl stuff going on, and I really don't care for the bitterness of this game right now.
Can we all just commit to who we'll vote and get this over with?
For me Terry = Newcomb > Shadow.
Preferably Terry toDay so that the toxic fight ends and we can continue a normal game toMorrow.
I ended Day 2 with a hard push on Mindreaver. I was incredibly upset that it didn't happen and you mislynched KJ instead. I came in Day 3 convince nothing in this world could convince Mind isn't scum. Mind made has claim, I called BS right away, but before Rhand came in to deny the result I re-read my role PM and started mod-guessing and thought I could solve the game by figuring out who I was the back up to. I 180ed and believed Mindreaver over Rhand due to role speculation.
In a world where I am scum, coming into Day 3 with Mindreaver bus on my mind and Rhand basically CCs Mindreaver, I just continue to bus Mindreaver, not try to save him. COME ON MAN!
Suck on that Thought Juice.
In a world where you are scum and Rhand is town and you believed you had a win? This is not a good argument for town you.
What? No clue what you're talking about. If I were scum, look at end of the Day 2 events and the start of the Day 3 events. I'm pretty sure Mindreaver would have said that he planned on faking a result on town!Rhand and not just go rogue and do it. That being said, my actions make no sense as scum. Look at the timing of my turn around. It was before Rhand reacted to Mindreaver's claim. If I were scum, why would I end Day 2 and start Day 3 bussing Mindreaver and change my mind half way through that bus when there was a perfectly great reason to bus him. See how Newcomb played it?
I've got some tough rl stuff going on, and I really don't care for the bitterness of this game right now.
Can we all just commit to who we'll vote and get this over with?
For me Terry = Newcomb > Shadow.
Preferably Terry toDay so that the toxic fight ends and we can continue a normal game toMorrow.
I apologize to you for my part of the Toxicity, I hope life rights itself for you. I want it to be over too, but I can't play against my wincon.
In agreeement: Everyone not named Terry. Even Newcomb is trying to bus Terry at this point. By the way, that is a very predictable line of play for someone that is scum and got completely burned yesterday. Let's take a look at what Newcomb had to say today:
Alight, one down, sweet. Glad I took the time to read Mind’s most recent stuff and got that read correct in the end.
(Sorry I didn’t hop in right away, Monday-Thursday are super busy for me.)
Let’s work through this.
1. Grapefruit21
2. quixotic72 r. LogicoftheVI
3. shadowlancerx
8. Cantripmancer
9. TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
10. Cyan
11. Newcomb r. Typhrous r. fulcrum r. Cythare
12. Huntzilla
13. Rhand
I’m town. Rhand is pretty much clear via Mind’s flip. Hunt’s confirmed town.
Half that list is mafia, half is town. It’s really just a matter of PoE’ing the remaining team.
Quix and Cyan are like… almost certainly town here? The will in the thread was there to lynch Rhand yesterDay and given that he was the other side of the Mind dichotomy I think any team that includes them probably just wins yesterDay. I mean, there’s -EV moves for the sake of getting townread but scum just don’t… make the game that hard for themselves, like ever. Just, the vehemence they had and the work especially Quix did to lynch Mind yesterDay.. Just can’t see it. Plus, both of them were putting in a ton of work while under basically zero pressure, that late into the game that’s a major towntell. Willing to just accept them as town. Which just leaves us with:
3 mafia in 4 names, Grape, Shadow, Cantrip, Terry.
Terry’s pretty obviously scum here - his role is clownshoes, he blatantly tried to save Mind, etc etc - we’re lynching him toDay, but looking ahead to tomorrow when it’s pretty obvious I’m going to be set up as the game-losing mislynch, my focus is on finding the last two. The way Shadow also tried to save Mindreaver yesterday is fairly damning, and given the context of 6/4 MYLO and Mind faking a guilty for the win, I think locking Shadow in as the 3rd is a pretty safe bet.
Vote: TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
This is the absolute definition of a bus post, especially when you consider that Newcomb goes from here to talk about trying to lynch Grapefruit next. This makes no sense. If Newcomb is scum and just trying to get that final town mislynch, that's where he would have put all of his effort with this post. But he didn't. He wrote off Terry as scum because HE KNOWS TERRY IS SCUM.
Compare that to how much effort he puts into Grape:
On balance, think this is weak-ish evidence in favor of Cantrip/Mind being unaligned. The “you never responded to my post” thing is <rand to come from partners, in my experience. Wolf/wolf are more likely to kind of brush those over and not extend those interactions.
Not a huuuuge fan of the Mindreaver waffle read; just on spec it kinda feels bad knowing Mind is scum here and Cantrip’s easing off the gas.
The “?? You're calling my question to you opportunistic? How so?” bit comes off as very genuine here, though. W/w interactions like this it’s so so easy to fall into a kind of barbed, sarcastic type thing where you naturally want to distance, this feels just like real confusion.
Quote from Grapefruit21 »
Quote from Mindreaver »
Quote from Grapefruit21 »
What do you think of Bur so far? You implicate him slightly, but seems more contingent on being paired with Shadow. Anything stand out apart from that one interaction?
He's null so far, other than that one Shadow thing. I'm fairly sure we haven't played together, so I'm not a great authority on his tone/meta.
If you're null on Bur why did you say in 95 that you're agreeing with Gentleman Johnny? You actually don't seem to be agreeing with him on very much at all.
Classic w/w soft push. Not conclusive or anything, but it’s not a good look considering Mind’s flip.
Quote from Grapefruit21 »
@Cantrip I'm male and I've played 8ish games. This is number 2 on MTGS. FYI I'm familiar with some meta here though because I got into mafia reading MTGS games while bored at work before deciding that I should just play.
Can you expand a bit more on your GJ read as well. I've spent a lot of my time this game on GJ and I've found my opinion swinging wildly back and forth. I'm having trouble reconciling posts 50 and 101.
Anyone else is free to jump in on that question as well, I just want to hear from Cantrip first.
I'm still happy with my vote on Bur at this point. And if the deadline were in 24 hours I'd be choosing between Bur, Johnny, Mind, Shadow, Apocado, and TRSJT for the lynch.
Not a read on Grape per se, but the first bit of this definitely reinforces the premise that Cantrip/Grape aren’t /both/ mafia here. Knowing that Grape’s a new-ish player, I reeeeeeally don’t think he’d think to fake that kind of “wow who even are you” thing to a buddy.
Quote from Grapefruit21 »
Hi Shadow, let me follow your logic for a second. You're now worried that Bur is scum. You are worried for similar reasons to what I've been saying for the whole game. Which has you worried that I am turbo busing Bur.
To resolve this you want to lynch me. Which reveals nothing about Burs alignment.
Seems like a bad plan to me.
Not really conclusive on Grape/Shadow, although it definitely doesn’t scream not w/w, but it’s just… not a great post in general. Feels like… whistling in the dark, is the best phrase I can think of. Nervous but trying to sound like he’s not.
Quote from Cantripmancer »
Had to take my daughter to the doctor today, which turned into a trip to the hospital to get blood drawn for testing, which took the time I had planned to post today. We're also entering the weekend, which is always spotty for me. I will try to post tonight, but otherwise may not be able to contribute much until Monday. Sorry.
One thing of note:
@Cyan: What changed w/r/t Mindreaver that you are not now voting him despite your reason for unvoting him (to vote Grape) no longer persists?
Considering how much heat Mind was getting at the time, I find it not super likely that this is how wolf!Cantrip talks to town!Cyan about his partner here. It’s kind of…. Agenda-less, like if he’s with Mind here I would expect some kind of swipe or distance attempt.
Quote from Cantripmancer »
@Mindreaver: In 158, did you intend to "correct" my "correction" (adding "obnoxious" rather than "town")? If so, why not call attention to it?
This is… kinda distance-y.
Quote from Grapefruit21 »
Hi Cyan,
What about my response to Shadow is scummy? Additionally why is AG scummy for providing statements without context or reasoning but you aren't?
Thanks
Sincerely,
Grapefruit
P.S. Shadow's case is pure speculation without Bur's flip. Well there is his sheeping of Rhand but I've disputed that elsewhere and no one has replied to that as of yet so I don't feel the need to repeat it here.
Doubling down on that read on Shadow re: the previous post.
___
Gonna stop there for now.
I’m leaning Grape as the 4th here. Cantrip’s posts, at least in the early going, have a notable lack of agenda to them, especially looking at the times he was talking about Mind. It’s suuuuper hard to talk about buddies when they’re getting a ton of heat and have it come off as that… curious, but not agenda-y.
Grape has some Mindreaver-independent bad posts early. Also skimming toDay’s posts, ignoring JoeTerry to focus on me is just. Knowing I’m town here, it just looks like same *****, different day - he’s ignoring his buddy and going for the game-winning mislynch.[/quote]
Multiple quotes, paragraph after paragraph. Considerable effort. What is happening here is very obvious, and it is exactly what I said. Terry and Newcomb are both scum, and Newcomb has given up on Terry to start in on the one mislynch that he thinks the scum team has left(Grapefruit). If scum Newcomb were trying to get Town Terry mislynched here, that is where his effort would have gone. Nothing else makes any sense whatsoever.
I honestly don't know how you guys can read this stuff and come to any other conclusion.
Quote from Rhand »
For me Terry = Newcomb > Shadow.
In agreeement: Everyone not named Terry. Even Newcomb is trying to bus Terry at this point. By the way, that is a very predictable line of play for someone that is scum and got completely burned yesterday. Let's take a look at what Newcomb had to say today:
Alight, one down, sweet. Glad I took the time to read Mind’s most recent stuff and got that read correct in the end.
(Sorry I didn’t hop in right away, Monday-Thursday are super busy for me.)
Let’s work through this.
1. Grapefruit21
2. quixotic72 r. LogicoftheVI
3. shadowlancerx
8. Cantripmancer
9. TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
10. Cyan
11. Newcomb r. Typhrous r. fulcrum r. Cythare
12. Huntzilla
13. Rhand
I’m town. Rhand is pretty much clear via Mind’s flip. Hunt’s confirmed town.
Half that list is mafia, half is town. It’s really just a matter of PoE’ing the remaining team.
Quix and Cyan are like… almost certainly town here? The will in the thread was there to lynch Rhand yesterDay and given that he was the other side of the Mind dichotomy I think any team that includes them probably just wins yesterDay. I mean, there’s -EV moves for the sake of getting townread but scum just don’t… make the game that hard for themselves, like ever. Just, the vehemence they had and the work especially Quix did to lynch Mind yesterDay.. Just can’t see it. Plus, both of them were putting in a ton of work while under basically zero pressure, that late into the game that’s a major towntell. Willing to just accept them as town. Which just leaves us with:
3 mafia in 4 names, Grape, Shadow, Cantrip, Terry.
Terry’s pretty obviously scum here - his role is clownshoes, he blatantly tried to save Mind, etc etc - we’re lynching him toDay, but looking ahead to tomorrow when it’s pretty obvious I’m going to be set up as the game-losing mislynch, my focus is on finding the last two. The way Shadow also tried to save Mindreaver yesterday is fairly damning, and given the context of 6/4 MYLO and Mind faking a guilty for the win, I think locking Shadow in as the 3rd is a pretty safe bet.
Vote: TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
This is the absolute definition of a bus post, especially when you consider that Newcomb goes from here to talk about trying to lynch Grapefruit next. This makes no sense. If Newcomb is scum and just trying to get that final town mislynch, that's where he would have put all of his effort with this post. But he didn't. He wrote off Terry as scum because HE KNOWS TERRY IS SCUM.
Compare that to how much effort he puts into Grape:
On balance, think this is weak-ish evidence in favor of Cantrip/Mind being unaligned. The “you never responded to my post” thing is <rand to come from partners, in my experience. Wolf/wolf are more likely to kind of brush those over and not extend those interactions.
Not a huuuuge fan of the Mindreaver waffle read; just on spec it kinda feels bad knowing Mind is scum here and Cantrip’s easing off the gas.
The “?? You're calling my question to you opportunistic? How so?” bit comes off as very genuine here, though. W/w interactions like this it’s so so easy to fall into a kind of barbed, sarcastic type thing where you naturally want to distance, this feels just like real confusion.
Quote from Grapefruit21 »
Quote from Mindreaver »
Quote from Grapefruit21 »
What do you think of Bur so far? You implicate him slightly, but seems more contingent on being paired with Shadow. Anything stand out apart from that one interaction?
He's null so far, other than that one Shadow thing. I'm fairly sure we haven't played together, so I'm not a great authority on his tone/meta.
If you're null on Bur why did you say in 95 that you're agreeing with Gentleman Johnny? You actually don't seem to be agreeing with him on very much at all.
Classic w/w soft push. Not conclusive or anything, but it’s not a good look considering Mind’s flip.
Quote from Grapefruit21 »
@Cantrip I'm male and I've played 8ish games. This is number 2 on MTGS. FYI I'm familiar with some meta here though because I got into mafia reading MTGS games while bored at work before deciding that I should just play.
Can you expand a bit more on your GJ read as well. I've spent a lot of my time this game on GJ and I've found my opinion swinging wildly back and forth. I'm having trouble reconciling posts 50 and 101.
Anyone else is free to jump in on that question as well, I just want to hear from Cantrip first.
I'm still happy with my vote on Bur at this point. And if the deadline were in 24 hours I'd be choosing between Bur, Johnny, Mind, Shadow, Apocado, and TRSJT for the lynch.
Not a read on Grape per se, but the first bit of this definitely reinforces the premise that Cantrip/Grape aren’t /both/ mafia here. Knowing that Grape’s a new-ish player, I reeeeeeally don’t think he’d think to fake that kind of “wow who even are you” thing to a buddy.
Quote from Grapefruit21 »
Hi Shadow, let me follow your logic for a second. You're now worried that Bur is scum. You are worried for similar reasons to what I've been saying for the whole game. Which has you worried that I am turbo busing Bur.
To resolve this you want to lynch me. Which reveals nothing about Burs alignment.
Seems like a bad plan to me.
Not really conclusive on Grape/Shadow, although it definitely doesn’t scream not w/w, but it’s just… not a great post in general. Feels like… whistling in the dark, is the best phrase I can think of. Nervous but trying to sound like he’s not.
Quote from Cantripmancer »
Had to take my daughter to the doctor today, which turned into a trip to the hospital to get blood drawn for testing, which took the time I had planned to post today. We're also entering the weekend, which is always spotty for me. I will try to post tonight, but otherwise may not be able to contribute much until Monday. Sorry.
One thing of note:
@Cyan: What changed w/r/t Mindreaver that you are not now voting him despite your reason for unvoting him (to vote Grape) no longer persists?
Considering how much heat Mind was getting at the time, I find it not super likely that this is how wolf!Cantrip talks to town!Cyan about his partner here. It’s kind of…. Agenda-less, like if he’s with Mind here I would expect some kind of swipe or distance attempt.
Quote from Cantripmancer »
@Mindreaver: In 158, did you intend to "correct" my "correction" (adding "obnoxious" rather than "town")? If so, why not call attention to it?
This is… kinda distance-y.
Quote from Grapefruit21 »
Hi Cyan,
What about my response to Shadow is scummy? Additionally why is AG scummy for providing statements without context or reasoning but you aren't?
Thanks
Sincerely,
Grapefruit
P.S. Shadow's case is pure speculation without Bur's flip. Well there is his sheeping of Rhand but I've disputed that elsewhere and no one has replied to that as of yet so I don't feel the need to repeat it here.
Doubling down on that read on Shadow re: the previous post.
___
Gonna stop there for now.
I’m leaning Grape as the 4th here. Cantrip’s posts, at least in the early going, have a notable lack of agenda to them, especially looking at the times he was talking about Mind. It’s suuuuper hard to talk about buddies when they’re getting a ton of heat and have it come off as that… curious, but not agenda-y.
Grape has some Mindreaver-independent bad posts early. Also skimming toDay’s posts, ignoring JoeTerry to focus on me is just. Knowing I’m town here, it just looks like same *****, different day - he’s ignoring his buddy and going for the game-winning mislynch.
Multiple quotes, paragraph after paragraph. Considerable effort. What is happening here is very obvious, and it is exactly what I said. Terry and Newcomb are both scum, and Newcomb has given up on Terry to start in on the one mislynch that he thinks the scum team has left(Grapefruit). If scum Newcomb were trying to get Town Terry mislynched here, that is where his effort would have gone. Nothing else makes any sense whatsoever.
I honestly don't know how you guys can read this stuff and come to any other conclusion.
0
But like, real talk. There are lines you can't cross in mafia, and multiple people have crossed them this game, regardless of alignment. Looking at a post and trying to figure out if it is something that comes from town or scum is the core part of mafia. But I shouldn't have to try and figure out if someone would fake gross out of game things as scum. I just shouldn't. I don't want to have to make that decision where I go "Yeah this guy seems like the kind of person who would do that."
But, here we are.
Ultimately I don't think I ever really get to a place where I can say I think Terry is town. I want him to be town because the alternative is gross. But I just... don't think he is.
The claim and protection of Mindreaver makes more sense as scum.
The role in general just doesn't make a lot of sense as town. Like...backup to Bur if Bur dies and doesn't activate is pretty much only thing I can see actually being reality. Given the context - that he was run up a bit and hinted power role, but wouldn't claim, and then used the claim to try and clear Mindreaver, it just makes so much more sense as scum.
His read progression (Rhand + Cyan + Shadow to Mind + Cyan + Shadow) makes more sense as scum who doesn't actually believe those reads. There was no critical thought there.
The way he has latched onto Shadow and Cantrip's tinfoil worlds makes more sense as scum. Like he never actually thought people would consider worlds where Rhand was scum, and he jumped on it like a drowning man to a life raft.
The way Newcomb is treating him makes much more sense as scum/scum than it does scum pushing for a mislynch.
There's also the fact that I just can't come up with a feasible scum team that doesn't include him.
Cyan is never scum this game. He's just not. I don't know Terry as well as I do Cyan, but Cyan's disgust at how Terry is playing this is 100% genuine. Maybe there's a small chance I'm getting snowed here and it's a Rhand/Cyan/X type world, but I really don't think that's the case.
I really don't think Cantrip is scum this game. Mindreaver getting caught happened because he screwed up his read on Cantrip. That'd be masterful scum theater for no point that I can really see.
Rhand being scum is realistically only way I can see Terry being town, and that world doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It would have to be like Rhand/Grapefruit/Cantrip-or-Newcomb, where Grapefruit tried to push for the Shadow mislynch instead of committing to Rhand /or/ Mindreaver at the start of day yesterday.
Like, this all adds up to me pretty much never not lynching Terry.
I think it's Terry + 2 of Newcomb, Shadow, Grapefruit.
I'm leaning towards Terry/Newcomb/Shadow, but a couple things give me some pause with regards to Shadow:
1) The fact that I know Proph really well, and can 100% see him putting a useless flavor/name cop in town just to force town to operate based on behavior.
2) The fact that he's proven the role, and I don't really see the value in a scum name/flavor cop when they had a Rolecop of sorts in Mindreaver.
3) The fact that he locked himself into a targetable claim early, and that the weak nature of the role makes sense to have wasted a shot to prove Grapefruit's role.
4) The way that Terry latched onto Shadow's tinfoil worlds felt an awful lot like scum desperately jumping on something they can maybe sell as believable that they hadn't thought any town would consider. This is a little bit thin, it's possible that's scum/scum, but it's really good scumplay if so.
Like.
There's the fact that Shadow and Terry both tried to save Mindreaver in what realistically was probably a coordinated effort to secure the game winning mislynch and that's really hard to ignore. But there's enough things with regards to Shadow that I would not just auto lynch him after Terry/Newcomb flip scum. Whoever is alive needs to do their due diligence there.
Newcomb pushing Grape while acknowledging Terry is getting lynched is pretty much pure WiFOM to me. I can see that as him setting up the mislynch push instead of him tomorrow, I can see that as partners desperately distancing, I can see it as him trying to make it /look/ like either of those. I can even see a world where he's actually town and he believes that.
That'd have to be a Terry/Shadow/Grape type world that I don't...think? Is reality. Grape pushing Shadow instead of Mind/Rhand doesn't make sense to me yesterday if that's the world we are in.
Gun to my head it's just Terry/Newcomb/Shadow, and they're working hard to secure the only path to victory they have.
I just don't really feel or believe that Shadow is scum, deep in my bones, so whoever is alive in final 3/4, take it seriously and consider all options, including that one of Cantrip or Cyan or Rhand or whoever is a deep cover scum at that point.
My vote is on Terry in spirit, and I'm willing to proceed when Cantrip is.
I really want Terry to be town. Like I really hate the idea of him being scum with what he's said. I know tomorrow would be the same song and dace, but I really do think a Newcomb lynch is a better lynch today
I really want Terry to be town. Like I really hate the idea of him being scum with what he's said. I know tomorrow would be the same song and dace, but I really do think a Newcomb lynch is a better lynch today
I feel this. But still think he's scum in the end. Too many things against him.
Look back over my posts if you need to, talked about it in depth.
I think the thing Cyan pointed out above via Newcomb super strongly indicates them being scum/scum too, realistically.
People are pushing me + Newcomb across the board, but for some reason I am being pushed to the head of the lynch line. Read my posts yesterday. I beg you. There is a reason I. Being pushed ahead of Newcomb for sure, I can see me being ahead of shadow in the lynch line, because I'm unsure of him too. Newcomb is being ignored today because he is scum, but scum want to lynch town (me). Newcomb's play yesterday was so blatantly scum, he was coming at rhand harder than I was, all his posts ooze insincerity. Why am I being pushed today, when it seems to be a common thread that shadow, Newcomb, and me all "defended" mindreaver yesterday? Don't look at this in a vacuum, look at the rest of the game, particularly the end of day 2.
If you are town, and don't want to quit this game, and think Newcomb is scum, Vote him today not me. I don't know how many more times I can say this, but I am a mislynch. Where's Newcomb? Lurking in the shadows (pun?). Waiting for me to die. There is no way, in a newcomb+sjt scum world, the better play is to let me bus newcomb.
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This answer sounds resoundingly town, I really can't see Grape explaining it this way as scum, ever.
Behaviorally, I just can't away from the scum team being shadow/sjt/newcomb. I guess Cantrip and Rhand(it would literally have to be both) could be pulling a super fast one on us, but that just isn't how the gamestate feels to me.
Why would it "literally have to be both"?
Cyan: Quix is significantly more likely to be scum with Rhand than Cantrip is.
Well, it would have to be Rhand + somebody. And the only other option for that somebody is Quix, whom I think is behaviorally town to the utmost. I thought this was the case before the Rhand v Mind thing even started. I also thought that the person he replaced in for was town. In my experience, it's exceedingly rare that a person and their replacement both come across as town while they are actually scum.
Also, I can't see Cantrip asking this as scum. It makes no sense for him to do so. So the scum team is either exactly shadow, sjt, newcomb or exactly rhand, quix, newcomb, in my mind.
I've already given my thoughts on Quix, and Rhand has made some off the cuff comments(like asking me to promise to revist everything if I end up being the last person alive with shadow and grape, among others) that I just don't see a scum bothering with.
In the end I'm just back where I started. And if we're going to mislynch SJT and lose the game, I'd rather do it now than waste a bunch more time.
My vote is staying on SJT. I'm definitely willing to listen to what Quix has to say here, though.
I'm saying that, if you're town and we're going to lose the game lynching you, I'd rather just get it over with. You should understand this, because I'm pretty sure you made the exact same argument in favor of us lynching you on Monday or so.
@shadow: Just to be clear, when the game is over and your scum team has lost, you can place most of that blame on SJT's shoulders. The arguments he's making are atrocious and were never going to sway anyone.
Accordingly, if it turns out that Terry is town and we're going to lose due to lynching him, I'd rather just get it out of the way now and save time than have to have the same arguments over and over for another 2 weeks.
I also don't want to give you guys a chance to NK me and try and manipulate people that are, in my estimation, less resolute than I am.
It's also not at all lost on me that you're pivoting your argument to essentially arguing that Terry is town, despite going out of your way earlier to tell me that you thought he was scum.
So, despite my question above to Cyan (THAT HE DIDN'T ANSWER, JUST LIKE THE REST OF THIS GAME), I similarly can't see scum!Cyan taking the stances he's taken regarding playing dirty and Terry's play. So either one of them is "playing dirty", both of them are (and have justified it because they're both scum), or they're both town. Is the latter a possibility?
Dear Mod,
This is exactly why I PMed you to say, and still maintain that, Terry should have been modkilled after that string of posts. This not something that a townie(I'm not saying shadow is town, but he's certainly willing to use this ***** to his advantage apparently) should ever have to work their way through. Some other dude got modkilled literally because a replacement couldn't be found. This is unacceptable.
Grow up.
I'm not trying to lynch Cyan right now. He's pushing a mislynch super hard and keeps pushing harder the farther it falls out of his grasp. There is a better lynch than Cyan today. Since I'm town, I care about that stuff.
Don't try to belittle my arguments into apathy. I have wanted out of the game for awhile, that's undeniable. But that didn't happen, so I'm still going to do everything I can to ensure that I win in situations like this one.
Whoops I messed up.
I ended Day 2 with a hard push on Mindreaver. I was incredibly upset that it didn't happen and you mislynched KJ instead. I came in Day 3 convince nothing in this world could convince Mind isn't scum. Mind made has claim, I called BS right away, but before Rhand came in to deny the result I re-read my role PM and started mod-guessing and thought I could solve the game by figuring out who I was the back up to. I 180ed and believed Mindreaver over Rhand due to role speculation.
In a world where I am scum, coming into Day 3 with Mindreaver bus on my mind and Rhand basically CCs Mindreaver, I just continue to bus Mindreaver, not try to save him. COME ON MAN!
Suck on that Thought Juice.
Can we all just commit to who we'll vote and get this over with?
For me Terry = Newcomb > Shadow.
Preferably Terry toDay so that the toxic fight ends and we can continue a normal game toMorrow.
In agreeement: Everyone not named Terry. Even Newcomb is trying to bus Terry at this point. By the way, that is a very predictable line of play for someone that is scum and got completely burned yesterday. Let's take a look at what Newcomb had to say today:
This is the absolute definition of a bus post, especially when you consider that Newcomb goes from here to talk about trying to lynch Grapefruit next. This makes no sense. If Newcomb is scum and just trying to get that final town mislynch, that's where he would have put all of his effort with this post. But he didn't. He wrote off Terry as scum because HE KNOWS TERRY IS SCUM.
Compare that to how much effort he puts into Grape:
On balance, think this is weak-ish evidence in favor of Cantrip/Mind being unaligned. The “you never responded to my post” thing is <rand to come from partners, in my experience. Wolf/wolf are more likely to kind of brush those over and not extend those interactions.
Not a huuuuge fan of the Mindreaver waffle read; just on spec it kinda feels bad knowing Mind is scum here and Cantrip’s easing off the gas.
The “?? You're calling my question to you opportunistic? How so?” bit comes off as very genuine here, though. W/w interactions like this it’s so so easy to fall into a kind of barbed, sarcastic type thing where you naturally want to distance, this feels just like real confusion.
Quote from Grapefruit21 »
Quote from Mindreaver »
Quote from Grapefruit21 »
What do you think of Bur so far? You implicate him slightly, but seems more contingent on being paired with Shadow. Anything stand out apart from that one interaction?
He's null so far, other than that one Shadow thing. I'm fairly sure we haven't played together, so I'm not a great authority on his tone/meta.
If you're null on Bur why did you say in 95 that you're agreeing with Gentleman Johnny? You actually don't seem to be agreeing with him on very much at all.
Classic w/w soft push. Not conclusive or anything, but it’s not a good look considering Mind’s flip.
Quote from Grapefruit21 »
@Cantrip I'm male and I've played 8ish games. This is number 2 on MTGS. FYI I'm familiar with some meta here though because I got into mafia reading MTGS games while bored at work before deciding that I should just play.
Can you expand a bit more on your GJ read as well. I've spent a lot of my time this game on GJ and I've found my opinion swinging wildly back and forth. I'm having trouble reconciling posts 50 and 101.
Anyone else is free to jump in on that question as well, I just want to hear from Cantrip first.
I'm still happy with my vote on Bur at this point. And if the deadline were in 24 hours I'd be choosing between Bur, Johnny, Mind, Shadow, Apocado, and TRSJT for the lynch.
Not a read on Grape per se, but the first bit of this definitely reinforces the premise that Cantrip/Grape aren’t /both/ mafia here. Knowing that Grape’s a new-ish player, I reeeeeeally don’t think he’d think to fake that kind of “wow who even are you” thing to a buddy.
Quote from Grapefruit21 »
Hi Shadow, let me follow your logic for a second. You're now worried that Bur is scum. You are worried for similar reasons to what I've been saying for the whole game. Which has you worried that I am turbo busing Bur.
To resolve this you want to lynch me. Which reveals nothing about Burs alignment.
Seems like a bad plan to me.
Not really conclusive on Grape/Shadow, although it definitely doesn’t scream not w/w, but it’s just… not a great post in general. Feels like… whistling in the dark, is the best phrase I can think of. Nervous but trying to sound like he’s not.
Quote from Cantripmancer »
Had to take my daughter to the doctor today, which turned into a trip to the hospital to get blood drawn for testing, which took the time I had planned to post today. We're also entering the weekend, which is always spotty for me. I will try to post tonight, but otherwise may not be able to contribute much until Monday. Sorry.
One thing of note:
@Cyan: What changed w/r/t Mindreaver that you are not now voting him despite your reason for unvoting him (to vote Grape) no longer persists?
Considering how much heat Mind was getting at the time, I find it not super likely that this is how wolf!Cantrip talks to town!Cyan about his partner here. It’s kind of…. Agenda-less, like if he’s with Mind here I would expect some kind of swipe or distance attempt.
Quote from Cantripmancer »
@Mindreaver: In 158, did you intend to "correct" my "correction" (adding "obnoxious" rather than "town")? If so, why not call attention to it?
This is… kinda distance-y.
Quote from Grapefruit21 »
Hi Cyan,
What about my response to Shadow is scummy? Additionally why is AG scummy for providing statements without context or reasoning but you aren't?
Thanks
Sincerely,
Grapefruit
P.S. Shadow's case is pure speculation without Bur's flip. Well there is his sheeping of Rhand but I've disputed that elsewhere and no one has replied to that as of yet so I don't feel the need to repeat it here.
Doubling down on that read on Shadow re: the previous post.
___
Gonna stop there for now.
I’m leaning Grape as the 4th here. Cantrip’s posts, at least in the early going, have a notable lack of agenda to them, especially looking at the times he was talking about Mind. It’s suuuuper hard to talk about buddies when they’re getting a ton of heat and have it come off as that… curious, but not agenda-y.
Grape has some Mindreaver-independent bad posts early. Also skimming toDay’s posts, ignoring JoeTerry to focus on me is just. Knowing I’m town here, it just looks like same *****, different day - he’s ignoring his buddy and going for the game-winning mislynch.[/quote]
Multiple quotes, paragraph after paragraph. Considerable effort. What is happening here is very obvious, and it is exactly what I said. Terry and Newcomb are both scum, and Newcomb has given up on Terry to start in on the one mislynch that he thinks the scum team has left(Grapefruit). If scum Newcomb were trying to get Town Terry mislynched here, that is where his effort would have gone. Nothing else makes any sense whatsoever.
I honestly don't know how you guys can read this stuff and come to any other conclusion.
In agreeement: Everyone not named Terry. Even Newcomb is trying to bus Terry at this point. By the way, that is a very predictable line of play for someone that is scum and got completely burned yesterday. Let's take a look at what Newcomb had to say today:
This is the absolute definition of a bus post, especially when you consider that Newcomb goes from here to talk about trying to lynch Grapefruit next. This makes no sense. If Newcomb is scum and just trying to get that final town mislynch, that's where he would have put all of his effort with this post. But he didn't. He wrote off Terry as scum because HE KNOWS TERRY IS SCUM.
Compare that to how much effort he puts into Grape:
Multiple quotes, paragraph after paragraph. Considerable effort. What is happening here is very obvious, and it is exactly what I said. Terry and Newcomb are both scum, and Newcomb has given up on Terry to start in on the one mislynch that he thinks the scum team has left(Grapefruit). If scum Newcomb were trying to get Town Terry mislynched here, that is where his effort would have gone. Nothing else makes any sense whatsoever.
I honestly don't know how you guys can read this stuff and come to any other conclusion.
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But like, real talk. There are lines you can't cross in mafia, and multiple people have crossed them this game, regardless of alignment. Looking at a post and trying to figure out if it is something that comes from town or scum is the core part of mafia. But I shouldn't have to try and figure out if someone would fake gross out of game things as scum. I just shouldn't. I don't want to have to make that decision where I go "Yeah this guy seems like the kind of person who would do that."
But, here we are.
Ultimately I don't think I ever really get to a place where I can say I think Terry is town. I want him to be town because the alternative is gross. But I just... don't think he is.
The claim and protection of Mindreaver makes more sense as scum.
The role in general just doesn't make a lot of sense as town. Like...backup to Bur if Bur dies and doesn't activate is pretty much only thing I can see actually being reality. Given the context - that he was run up a bit and hinted power role, but wouldn't claim, and then used the claim to try and clear Mindreaver, it just makes so much more sense as scum.
His read progression (Rhand + Cyan + Shadow to Mind + Cyan + Shadow) makes more sense as scum who doesn't actually believe those reads. There was no critical thought there.
The way he has latched onto Shadow and Cantrip's tinfoil worlds makes more sense as scum. Like he never actually thought people would consider worlds where Rhand was scum, and he jumped on it like a drowning man to a life raft.
The way Newcomb is treating him makes much more sense as scum/scum than it does scum pushing for a mislynch.
There's also the fact that I just can't come up with a feasible scum team that doesn't include him.
Cyan is never scum this game. He's just not. I don't know Terry as well as I do Cyan, but Cyan's disgust at how Terry is playing this is 100% genuine. Maybe there's a small chance I'm getting snowed here and it's a Rhand/Cyan/X type world, but I really don't think that's the case.
I really don't think Cantrip is scum this game. Mindreaver getting caught happened because he screwed up his read on Cantrip. That'd be masterful scum theater for no point that I can really see.
Rhand being scum is realistically only way I can see Terry being town, and that world doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It would have to be like Rhand/Grapefruit/Cantrip-or-Newcomb, where Grapefruit tried to push for the Shadow mislynch instead of committing to Rhand /or/ Mindreaver at the start of day yesterday.
Like, this all adds up to me pretty much never not lynching Terry.
I think it's Terry + 2 of Newcomb, Shadow, Grapefruit.
I'm leaning towards Terry/Newcomb/Shadow, but a couple things give me some pause with regards to Shadow:
1) The fact that I know Proph really well, and can 100% see him putting a useless flavor/name cop in town just to force town to operate based on behavior.
2) The fact that he's proven the role, and I don't really see the value in a scum name/flavor cop when they had a Rolecop of sorts in Mindreaver.
3) The fact that he locked himself into a targetable claim early, and that the weak nature of the role makes sense to have wasted a shot to prove Grapefruit's role.
4) The way that Terry latched onto Shadow's tinfoil worlds felt an awful lot like scum desperately jumping on something they can maybe sell as believable that they hadn't thought any town would consider. This is a little bit thin, it's possible that's scum/scum, but it's really good scumplay if so.
Like.
There's the fact that Shadow and Terry both tried to save Mindreaver in what realistically was probably a coordinated effort to secure the game winning mislynch and that's really hard to ignore. But there's enough things with regards to Shadow that I would not just auto lynch him after Terry/Newcomb flip scum. Whoever is alive needs to do their due diligence there.
Newcomb pushing Grape while acknowledging Terry is getting lynched is pretty much pure WiFOM to me. I can see that as him setting up the mislynch push instead of him tomorrow, I can see that as partners desperately distancing, I can see it as him trying to make it /look/ like either of those. I can even see a world where he's actually town and he believes that.
That'd have to be a Terry/Shadow/Grape type world that I don't...think? Is reality. Grape pushing Shadow instead of Mind/Rhand doesn't make sense to me yesterday if that's the world we are in.
Gun to my head it's just Terry/Newcomb/Shadow, and they're working hard to secure the only path to victory they have.
I just don't really feel or believe that Shadow is scum, deep in my bones, so whoever is alive in final 3/4, take it seriously and consider all options, including that one of Cantrip or Cyan or Rhand or whoever is a deep cover scum at that point.
My vote is on Terry in spirit, and I'm willing to proceed when Cantrip is.
I feel this. But still think he's scum in the end. Too many things against him.
Look back over my posts if you need to, talked about it in depth.
I think the thing Cyan pointed out above via Newcomb super strongly indicates them being scum/scum too, realistically.
If you are town, and don't want to quit this game, and think Newcomb is scum, Vote him today not me. I don't know how many more times I can say this, but I am a mislynch. Where's Newcomb? Lurking in the shadows (pun?). Waiting for me to die. There is no way, in a newcomb+sjt scum world, the better play is to let me bus newcomb.