I'm going to work on figuring out my own thoughts before commenting on yours. End of the line, won't be trusting much unless I read it and agree with it myself and don't find it helpful to talk about these things until I am read up enough again.
Vaimes/KJ
Vaimes's comment on Ophidia is inside Post #156 where he notes that he may be getting coached points slightly against them being partners as does him pointing out Ophidia being 'overly reasonable' inside Post #157. The interaction between Vaimes and Ophidia about scumchat closing in Post #161 and particularly Post #164 and Post #167 reads a very genuine interaction and one that I don't think happens between partners. I remember finding a lot of Vaimes thoughts on Ophidia around the time he voted him in Post #230 to match a lot of my thoughts then and the fact that Vaimes's follow up post inside Post #247 was him voting Pozzai I think it's a progression that points very heavily against being partners; I don't think Vaimes goes from voting one partner -> unvoting another partner that early into D1, similarly to Nacho I don't think he leaves both partners inside the four man pool in Post #297. Vaimes elaborated read and thoughts on Ophidia inside Post #586 is something I doubt he'd do if he already had a partner in trouble. KJs big replace in read being about Vaimes!Scum inside Post #745 also points against them being scum, albeit the fact that read vanished weakens that. Vaimes's vote on KJ inside Post #908 and constant talk about the Ophidia slot particularly in VCA points against them being scum too. Feel comfortable ruling out this team too which is somewhat of a relief in that I went into this thinking Vaimes's recent turnaround on KJ and KJs avoidance of Vaimes may be them setting up for today but there's enough interactions between the slots earlier in the game that makes me pretty sure they're not partners; I don't see Vaimes intentionally putting both of his partners in the spotlight unnecessarily like he would have had to multiple times if this was the world.
Still Possible: 1. Vaimes + Tom 2. Vaimes + Nacho 3. Vaimes + KJ
4. Nacho + KJ
5. Nacho + Tom
6. KJ + Tom
So don't see any world that involves Vaimes in it being likely here; if anyone thinks I've ruled out a world incorrectly let me know but pretty confident Vaimes is just town here both from not fitting with anyone and from his play itself.
I was caught up at the time I shot Grapefruit. I would shoot Grapefruit on Night 1 again if I had to do it all over again.
Anyway; I'm 1-shot, if it weren't obvious by this point. I'm going to re-read sometime next week - particularly Pozzai's stuff - and go from there, but I'm leaning No Lynch toDay.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I don't see much advantage in no lynching here; it'd likely just lead towards you dying given you being pretty much clear via mass-claim and us being in the same situation tomorrow.
And tomorrow it'll be a situation where one misvote is game over whereas today that's not the case. Much better lynching here.
I'm very, very evenly split on Regfan. On the one hand, he's been completely protown, transparent, and pushed on the scum Roleblocker pretty hard. On the other hand, scum have left him alone, meaning he's either scum or not a threat to them. I want to say that nobody has the stamina or drive to post as much content as he does as mafia. Plus, it makes no sense to bus what is very likely the only scum PR when you're very widely townread. You use your status to push mislynches.
I know I've been burned on the "townread scum have literally no reason to bus" logic at some point, in some game, but I'm willing to run with it here. Regfan could be scum here and still win town MVP at endgame.
Iso is...I dunno man. I don't think, as scum, he claims credit for an awful shot and then just completely vanishes. He's made me want to pull my hair out this game but I don't think he's mafia. Smaller (very recent) thing, but proposing a No Lynch as mafia here is also ??? unlikely.
Two scum in [tom, Nacho, Killjoy].
Boy, does tom look like the scum on the x=y wagon. Which is awful, because I think he's been really towny this game, beyond the Voxx persona (which is super ironic, because I'm sure Voxx would be ramming a lynch down tom's throat at this point, no brakes).
The alternative is, what, a Pozzai/Nacho/Killphidia team?
Re: Killjoy feeling like town: I'll pull those posts up in a bit.
It's very weak, but I think it's more my confidence in Killjoy being scum is shattered, because uh. I thought DV was going to flip scum, and that didn't happen. blah blah scummy doesn't always mean scum, one day I will learn this lesson.
But I'd like people to give opinions on my Tom thing before we lynch so it doesn't fall by the wayside and then also whoever the scum decide to kill tonight will have commented on it.
In light of tom being very likely scum, I like this post. And in his next(-ish, maybe it comes a little later) post, he says something like "I can't wait to brag postgame for catching scum!tom."
I know how difficult it can be to catch tom. It took uh, a lot of work/yelling and very last-minute cooperation to kill him in Bare Bones, to say the least. He says he's never been caught on behavior, which is a theme he seems to be repeating here. That's what happens when you inadvertently reveal the alignments of people on the main D1 wagon, I guess. Maybe it was worth it for them to snipe the Doc, but we'll see.
And I think overall the attitude of Killjoy's posts comes from someone trying to gamesolve but being annoyed that we're all autoscumreading him just because other people seem or have seemed townier.
I also went from not having read in context to Pozz to having done that, and I thought I saw something with his pursuit of the Pozz wagon re: inconsistency that I recognize as an ACTUAL scumtell. It wasn't tunneling, I just saw him do a REALLY scummy thing, so I got excited that I finally caught someone, but then no one belived it. :/
This reads as towny.
Okay now I'm going to bed. This has been a Reassuring Wall of Posts by Vaimes to Reassure You All that He is Town.
Killjoy+Nacho
Ophidias initial comment about town reading Nachos lack of caution inside Post #99 points slightly against them being partners in that it's fairly early to throw out a town read on a partner but the fact that was the only reasoning or mention he had on Nacho at all and placed him in his top town section of Post #488 is problematic and makes sense as partners. Nachos Post #316 directed to Ophidia re; how to handle & play the game comes across very soft in comparison to his commentary with most other players and find the town read that progresses from that in Post #320 and Post #321 makes a lot of sense as scum attempting to sneak a partner inside the town pool and while his point about the Ophidia slot down the bottom of Post #486 isn't an unreasonable point it's one that makes plenty of sense if they're scum together. Nachos comment about "Being a wizard and being able to see into Ophidias soul" inside Post #699 isn't the sort of phrasing scum use about a partner (and actually kind of reads very town on a relook) which points against this world existing and the weakening of the town read inside Post #701 based on the flip is a fairly good sign but Nachos statement that Killjoys response towards Iso re; potential counterclaim looks town regardless of it's intent inside Post #953 looks a lot like just trying to find reasoning to town read a partner.
Killjoys replace in town read on Nacho inside Post #745 makes a lot and I mean a lot of sense as partners here, it's based on effecitlvey nothing yet ended up being one of his few town reads, it worsens inside Post #1029 where he effectively ends up calling it a meta town read and admitting it has no other basis yet remains one of his two top reads at the time and contradicts fairly heavily with his "I don't use meta" statement to Tom inside Post#1322 (And is actually a rather big scum tell regardless of if this is the world or not) and his "Not looking at everyone" statement when I questioned him about his rereading method here inside Post #1243 makes sense wanting to avoid talking about a partner. His theory and "Tinfoiling" inside Post #1364 and his "Having trouble figuring it out inside Post #1369 both fit with him avoiding commenting on a partner and similarly Nacho popping in with his reads of KJ overtaking his Vaimes town read inside Post #1379 doesn't really fit past comments and does make sense with scum attempting to protect a partner today. Think it could very probably be Killjoy + Nacho as the scum team here, both Ophidia & Killjoy have town read Nacho fairly strongly, neither have explained the read or interacted with him at all throughout the game and Nachos strength of his town read on the slot has been something I've not really understood throughout the entire game (Most certainly don't get his recent stance of his KJ town read being stronger than his Vaimes one) which would fit in a world where he's trying to defend a partner and sneak them in the town pool.
I feel that from a scum mindset, scum!nacho might be too cautious to make this post. Could be wrong tho, since the analysis is from a noob mindset. More experienced players should be able to play more recklessly.
My reads as of now:
12. Nachomamma8-I want him to be town, but I remember him being different in Mindscrew. He was having fun, but he also did things, and his early posts show only fun. Although I was too focused on being scum to notice too much about his playstyle so take that with a grain of salt.
For clarity: Town:
Regfan
Delphi (light lean)
Nacho?
Overall:
I managed to take no notes regarding Nacho's play, but his later play in D1 is more like his Mind Screw persona than his early posts were and am willing to defualt to a general town read until I can focus on his posts.
I don't use meta. Ever. It's too unreliable. That's why I looked at your play THIS GAME FROM NO OTHER GAME and saw that's what you were doing.
The fact that KJ's not ever got around to actually looking at Nachos posts properly or attempting to get a read on him and his reasoning for writing him off initially being meta based while claiming not to use or believe in meta is a fairly large contradiction and one that makes plenty of sense if we're dealing with a Nacho+Killjoy world, think it makes KJ likely mafia regardless too.
@Vaimes RE; Post #1395, I'm not a huge fan of VCA analysis, don't think your point re; Tom looking slightly worse from the D1 wagon is a bad one but don't think it's a "Has to be mafia from it" at all and as you can see from the above two posts I think there's a good chance we're dealing with a Nacho + KJ world. I think the post you've quoted of Killjoys inside #1396 points against him being scum with Tom to a degree, I don't think the post (Or the one below it) come across as town at all though; as scum he has to find someone to push to mslynch and Toms probably the easiest target for him to do so, the fact that there's been no real assessment from him about Nacho and the fact that his read on you completely vanished are both huge scum tells here.
@Nacho - Can you explain your shift from "Vaimes would have to be playing the best scum game of his life" comment inside Post #954 v your town read on Killjoy now being a situation where you think Vaimes is more likely scum than KJ because I completely disagree with that stance and find the shift rather hard to comprehend.
Alright I might do some casual reading later tonight but probably won't get through Tom+Nacho or Tom+KJ until tomorrow.
At this point I think I'd vote KJ so we really need you to get around to commenting on my recent posts when you can Vaimes.
I was caught up at the time I shot Grapefruit. I would shoot Grapefruit on Night 1 again if I had to do it all over again.
So you still think he was "directionless and uncertain"? Because that is actually the least accurate thing you've said this entire game, and you are currently townreading Nacho for "having fun".
@Vaimes
Why did you choose that particular votecount to analyze? It seems a little random.
Killjoy+Nacho
Ophidias initial comment about town reading Nachos lack of caution inside Post #99 points slightly against them being partners in that it's fairly early to throw out a town read on a partner but the fact that was the only reasoning or mention he had on Nacho at all and placed him in his top town section of Post #488 is problematic and makes sense as partners. Nachos Post #316 directed to Ophidia re; how to handle & play the game comes across very soft in comparison to his commentary with most other players and find the town read that progresses from that in Post #320 and Post #321 makes a lot of sense as scum attempting to sneak a partner inside the town pool and while his point about the Ophidia slot down the bottom of Post #486 isn't an unreasonable point it's one that makes plenty of sense if they're scum together. Nachos comment about "Being a wizard and being able to see into Ophidias soul" inside Post #699 isn't the sort of phrasing scum use about a partner (and actually kind of reads very town on a relook) which points against this world existing and the weakening of the town read inside Post #701 based on the flip is a fairly good sign but Nachos statement that Killjoys response towards Iso re; potential counterclaim looks town regardless of it's intent inside Post #953 looks a lot like just trying to find reasoning to town read a partner.
Killjoys replace in town read on Nacho inside Post #745 makes a lot and I mean a lot of sense as partners here, it's based on effecitlvey nothing yet ended up being one of his few town reads, it worsens inside Post #1029 where he effectively ends up calling it a meta town read and admitting it has no other basis yet remains one of his two top reads at the time and contradicts fairly heavily with his "I don't use meta" statement to Tom inside Post#1322 (And is actually a rather big scum tell regardless of if this is the world or not) and his "Not looking at everyone" statement when I questioned him about his rereading method here inside Post #1243 makes sense wanting to avoid talking about a partner. His theory and "Tinfoiling" inside Post #1364 and his "Having trouble figuring it out inside Post #1369 both fit with him avoiding commenting on a partner and similarly Nacho popping in with his reads of KJ overtaking his Vaimes town read inside Post #1379 doesn't really fit past comments and does make sense with scum attempting to protect a partner today. Think it could very probably be Killjoy + Nacho as the scum team here, both Ophidia & Killjoy have town read Nacho fairly strongly, neither have explained the read or interacted with him at all throughout the game and Nachos strength of his town read on the slot has been something I've not really understood throughout the entire game (Most certainly don't get his recent stance of his KJ town read being stronger than his Vaimes one) which would fit in a world where he's trying to defend a partner and sneak them in the town pool.
Really want others thoughts on this.
I think the most important thing here is how consistently those two slots have townread each other, seemingly not in line with their contributions. Like, I understand Vaimes' "yeah Killjoy seems kind of town" because I've had similar feeling about both inhabitants of that slot as well as Nacho. But there's just not enough there to call either a lock. At this point in the game, everyone (except Iso) has definitely had townie moments. But those two slots have just had less. That's all there is to it.
Not that having less townie moments is necessarily a good solution. But the strength of those mutual townreads is certainly disconcerting.
Yeah, by far the biggest issue I have with both slots is that Ophidia & Killjoy have both town read Nacho quite strongly for either weak or nonexistent reasons, admittedly their reasoning wasn't particularly solid but never revisited, reassessed or interacted with him to get a better read on him and the strength of Nachos town read on those slots has never really matched what's occurred.
It's a lot of "Wanting to keep them out of the focus" from both of them which makes plenty of sense as a scum team here.
Killjoy's whole thing yesterday of "Tom is lock scum for these super reachy reasons" > "oh I guess he's not scum with DV" > "ok let's lynch DV but Tom is still lock scum" does not sit well with me at all. Especially knowing that DV and I are both town. I don't want to hang too much on an interaction that only has that clarity of meaning for myself, but since I'm somehow in the running to be the game ending mislynch it seems pretty damn important.
I'd like Nacho and Vaimes, especially, to talk about that process.
I don't want to lie to you guys. I'm absolutely floored I'm under any suspicion at all. I know I'm generally better at being scum than town, and do have the built in fakeness and inconsistency of playing a style other than my own, but that's not even the angle the attack is coming from. It's distancing myself from the Pozzai wagon (which a- didn't happen and b- doesn't even make sense as a scumtell if it had. Like, I didn't do that. I always wanted to lynch Pozzai, even if I wanted to lynch xequalsy/Iso more for a time. But if I was scum why would I ever distance myself from a partner's wagon that was clearly going through? It doesn't even make sense) or being on a [random votecount from towards end of day] with 4 town and Iso or whatever the hell Killjoy was on about yesterday. Vaimes' makes the most sense because I've seen him use that method before, but he'd also have to know that I'm as aware of it as anyone and even teamed up with Thug to actively fool Prophylaxis with that in the Crossover game on MU. With Iso being disappointingly town, xequalsy was just a town controlled mislynch that apparently scum didn't even need to push. And Vaimes weighing that more heavily than any behavior analysis... well my Tom side wants to call it scummy but the Voxx side comes back to remind me that Vaimes struggles to trust me and it makes sense he'd let himself be convinced by something mechanical like that that lets him alleviate the worry that I'm fooling him again, but even the Voxx side doesn't like that he let that completely overshadow his actual read.
I wish I could dive into rereading right now but I have a show tomorrow and [redacted] still going on so it will have to wait a little. Perhaps tomorrow I can sneak in a reread of Newcomb's case on Nacho and why I thought there was always a scum between the two of them. I remember backing off Nacho because it would just be so blatant to have killed Newcomb there with his legacy being "Nacho is scum" and people besides me seeing that as a dichotomy, but Nacho has some pretty huge balls as scum and he obviously survived anyway.
Killjoy's whole thing yesterday of "Tom is lock scum for these super reachy reasons" > "oh I guess he's not scum with DV" > "ok let's lynch DV but Tom is still lock scum" does not sit well with me at all. Especially knowing that DV and I are both town. I don't want to hang too much on an interaction that only has that clarity of meaning for myself, but since I'm somehow in the running to be the game ending mislynch it seems pretty damn important.
Yeah, the progression there as well as his reaction towards Iso having scum reads on both you and himself didn't read a natural thought process.
So basically you're the towniest of the town, and you're still alive. Right, tom. Townier than Empoof was. He never breadcrumbed a PR, as far as I could see.
I knew I wasn't gonna be able to talk you guys down from a D_V lynch. And good points where made that I hadn't considered, so I agreed with it.
And tom IS scum. He has to be, if Reg is right about Vaimes/Nacho not being a thing. It has to be tom/Nacho.
Also I swear it wasn't natural progression, tom's Pozz read I mean.
Also also I change my mind a lot near the endgame since there's so much info and etc.
I'll ISO Nacho tomorrow after work because I have to get up earlyish tomorrow.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Killjoy
No I'm not the towniest town. That would be Regfan. But I am certainly townier than you, Nacho, and Iso. Probably combined. You can tell from all the "reasons" I am scum being so... terrible. Like, if you're town I don't want to ***** on your work. But I read your case and can't even figure out how it lead to a scumread. Much less a "lock"
I'm tempted to call tom's hedging on me super scummy considering we all know what a catastrophic failure my scumgame is. If anyone has the right to complain about being suspected, it is absolutely not him.
I want this to be an easy game. I'd love it if I didn't have to second-guess who I think is mafia, but such is the nature of this hobby.
I know that tom being the only non-confirmed town on a town wagon D1 with all three mafia alive isn't a 100% slam-dunk case, but I also don't think it's something that should just be swept under the rug. Like, at the very least, that should prompt a thorough reread of him. I'm not going to try and read tom based on his behavior, because 1) it won't work, 2) he's stated out-of-game that it won't work, and 3) I'm gullible as ****, so it's not like it would do me any good. I have to catch tom via votes or weird interactions with confirmed scum. I only caught tom in Bare Bones after Silver basically spoonfed me his case, and it became obvious after that when tom tried to la-la-la it and force the last mislynch through.
Anyways.
The point is that I spent literally the entire game with a scumread on Silver, who was almost the game-winning mislynch for scum. I wanted him dead so, so badly. I couldn't fathom a world where he was town, especially after shadow flipped scum, and I almost snapvoted him in MyLo without a second thought. So I don't really want to just handwave Killjoy's slot without going over the game some more myself, because I have a really gross gut feeling that he's the game-winning mislynch. I think I'm the only one who thinks he could be town.
So just let me look at tom's posts, Killjoy's posts and Regfan's posts about him and think it over.
That is a semi spicy read I wouldn't mind some more depth on.
Why those 4 names - a specific thing for each, or a holistic gameflow thing?
Why only one? I can't imagine you have solid unalignmant reads on every possible combination of w/v of those pairings. So again - specific, or holistic?
Just talk about your thought process with this read a bit.
it's all holistic gameflow
I feel like at this stage of the game there's too many people that would be comfortable with the PoE of iso/d_v/pozzai/killjoy and if wrong nacho. I don't remember why but it felt like pozzai/nacho/x teams with that PoE always loses and there would be more going on from the nacho/x group to try and change that. Personally don't believe in killjoy teams atm and it feels like they're lhf. If that changes the game was too easy and I'd believe the 1in4 less.
0 chance it's iso/d_v/pozzai since iso would not hard claim vig in that spot. It's auto lose.
I just think it's one of those 4 because of that. I don't think this game is an elaborate newcomb/tom/vaimes sweep. Maybe there's two but if there is they're playing amazing. Would say regfan atm is least likely mafia.
Ok Vaimes. Allow me to break with this persona and spend this union-mandated coffee break pocketing you hard since I'm already feeling better about you again (though I still fully intend to reread everything).
No I don't get to be mad with people suspecting me. I've had this conversation with Voxx himself. I've made my bed, now I have to lie in it. But people aren't suspecting me because I'm me (well, you a little), they are suspecting me from my play in this game. Which I find ridiculous. The originator of this playstyle is barely passable as scum with it (yes this is hearsay. I've never seen him be scum). Because the essence is finding town and let everyone else be lynched. And, well, I have. Especially if YOU are town, which I believe to be the case as of this moment. Like, look back at my big elimination posts. Can you find a buddy I might have been trying to sneak into the town circle? Any reasoning that you don't find genuine for any of my reads? Any pushes I've made that haven't been grounded in reality? I don't think you'll find anything. My strong townreads have been Grapefruit, Regfan, Delphine, and [you]. ******* nailed it. I might have had Newcomb and/or Nacho as town for some amount of time, but I was never super confident on it. I believed xequalsy, DV, and Iso to be scum incorrectly, but I stand by believing in them at the time. Hell, I still kind of think DV was scum and am still racking my brain for a way for Iso to be but apparently he just sucks at mafia now.
So you know me. We've been scum together before. You know scumtom always has a plan. Well what the **** was my plan here? Actively lynch one buddy and apparently just shrug about the other one all game before eventually just being ok with lynching them in lylo? Like, I know how I've played this game. And I'm telling you my only viable partners are you and Regfan. Because there is absolutely no way I would allow Killjoy to make that bad a case against me if we were distancing, and there's no way I would hang my entire Nacho townread on Newcomb and/or DV flipping scum if I knew they wouldn't. Because I don't do anything half ass. Yes this is self meta, but I actually thought a lot about how I would play this if I'd rolled scum this game. To my great disappointment, I did not.
This game has not been the full transparency of AYAW. I've already said I don't ever plan to do that again. At least not for a full game. Because it was ******* exhausting. But for you, because I absolutely need to find a way to let you townread me (for this game and the future), I will answer any questions. Anything at all. If I don't remember, I will go back through my own iso to figure it out, because most of my thoughts are alluded to if not explicitly stated in the thread. I'm not gonna ask you to just ignore who I am/what I'm capable of or whatever. Merely that you judge based on how I've played this game. And see that I'm super obviously town.
So. Vaimes.
I'm town. Ask me anything. And then we can lynch scum do that skipping off into the sunset together thing that we never quite seem to be able to do.
Everyone else, please ignore this post because it's out of character and for Vaimes only.
How is it random? I've been using that votecount all game.
I'll get to other stuff after classes, around four or five hours from now.
Just want to know how you chose it, because it's not from end of day, or at the largest point, or even a moment of significance as far as I can tell.
Because if you're scum (no I don't really believe that, but I'm gonna at least consider it) you chose one that lets you push me with no reasoning as well as making you look good for being on Pozzai. That's simple enough.
Technically it's the EoD1 votal, but from a different point in the game. It has all the same people on it (if you swap me and Grapefruit). x=y only got lynched because the mod accidentally counted Typhrous and D_V as separate people.
(I just got a really intense deja-vu moment. I swear I've written a very, very similar post to this one, and specifically to tom. Brains are weird.)
Anyway I'm afraid to read your post so I'm going to put it off for an hour or so while I do laundry instead.
I'll be getting around to this game when I'm home from work tonight but the above conversation between Tom & Vaimes just makes me even more confident they're absolutely never a scum team here -- reads as Vaimes genuinely thinking Toms mafia here and Toms response towards it doesn't look like 'trying to convince a partner not to buss' at all. Also reads fairly town on both their parts which means there's a relatively good chance it is just Nacho/KJ but I do want to go through the other two possible pairings tonight.
@Nacho - Really want to hear your thoughts particularly on the Vaimes/Tom pairing never existing when you get a chance.
@Vaimes - Would like your thoughts on my Nacho+KJ world post, specifically your thoughts on KJ & Ophidais constant avoidance on really ever looking at Nacho or trying to get a read on him throughout the entirety of the game & KJ's "meta" reasons behind his Nacho read in conjunction with his "I don't use meta" stance to keep pushing on Tom.
Ok Vaimes. Allow me to break with this persona and spend this union-mandated coffee break pocketing you hard since I'm already feeling better about you again (though I still fully intend to reread everything).
No I don't get to be mad with people suspecting me. I've had this conversation with Voxx himself. I've made my bed, now I have to lie in it. But people aren't suspecting me because I'm me (well, you a little), they are suspecting me from my play in this game. Which I find ridiculous. The originator of this playstyle is barely passable as scum with it (yes this is hearsay. I've never seen him be scum). Because the essence is finding town and let everyone else be lynched. And, well, I have. Especially if YOU are town, which I believe to be the case as of this moment. Like, look back at my big elimination posts. Can you find a buddy I might have been trying to sneak into the town circle? Any reasoning that you don't find genuine for any of my reads? Any pushes I've made that haven't been grounded in reality? I don't think you'll find anything. My strong townreads have been Grapefruit, Regfan, Delphine, and [you]. ******* nailed it. I might have had Newcomb and/or Nacho as town for some amount of time, but I was never super confident on it. I believed xequalsy, DV, and Iso to be scum incorrectly, but I stand by believing in them at the time. Hell, I still kind of think DV was scum and am still racking my brain for a way for Iso to be but apparently he just sucks at mafia now.
The part of this series that stands out to me as particularly ridiculous is "people are suspecting me from my play in this game! how ridiculous! Voxxicus can't play scum, why would I be able to???"
You and Voxxicus are different people entirely. What makes people bad at playing scum, typically, is people who don't like playing it. Some people who hate it can still pull out decent scumgames at times (Tammy), but when you hate doing something and you have to force yourself to post, it shows pretty strongly, and that's why Voxxicus's play is weak, not just because he has a style that is just too cruel for him to implement as scum.
The second part of this that is especially ridiculous is that somehow your townreads on Grapefruit (universal townread), Regfan (universal townread), and Vaimes (universal townread) somehow makes you town; you're right that the Delphine strong townread was unique to you, but you white knighting the hell out of one town player who otherwise looks scummy is something that's a staple of your play in general and one often replicated as scum (remember Rosie?). The "I wouldn't let Killjoy make a bad distancing case against you" is all sorts of atrocious unless you're the type to write cases for your partners in the scum QT (you aren't).
I'm struggling with you believing that people somehow aren't going to question you when we're in late game POE after all of X=Y, DV, and Iso are now town and Vaimes-Regfan are still alive.
I absolutely agree that Vaimes-Tom are not likely partners after that exchange, but you thinking that Tom going "haha! I'm town because Voxxicus sucks at scum" is anywhere near town is absolutely atrocious. Why do you think you're alive right now? Do you think that it's because me and Killjoy protected each other all game and went "yep, let's get ******* steamrolled by Regfan even though our interactions are ******* horrible" or do you think you're alive because Tom's had you in his front pocket for the entirety of the game?
Toms paranoia re; me being alive reads relatively genuine especially given this is the first lylo type situation I've lived to as town pretty much.
If we lose the game, this is probably the reason we lose the game; how is Tom going "hmmm, Regfan looked town and is alive! I will look into him again" town when he doesn't know that this is the first lylo you've made it to as town??
But nope, it's like he says words and you townread him because your tom read is irrational at this point.
I don't think that it was absurd for me to have a flash of paranoia on Vaimes; you're right that this game is outside of his scumrange and you're right that he was obviously town and I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult for me to refresh my memory on him but unlike you he hasn't been here constantly hitting us over the head with his towniness and so it's easy to forget. I didn't say that I had a townread on Killjoy that was going to last the ages, I said that Vaimes/Tom was a thought of mine at the beginning of the day.
Ok Vaimes. Allow me to break with this persona and spend this union-mandated coffee break pocketing you hard since I'm already feeling better about you again (though I still fully intend to reread everything).
No I don't get to be mad with people suspecting me. I've had this conversation with Voxx himself. I've made my bed, now I have to lie in it. But people aren't suspecting me because I'm me (well, you a little), they are suspecting me from my play in this game. Which I find ridiculous. The originator of this playstyle is barely passable as scum with it (yes this is hearsay. I've never seen him be scum). Because the essence is finding town and let everyone else be lynched. And, well, I have. Especially if YOU are town, which I believe to be the case as of this moment. Like, look back at my big elimination posts. Can you find a buddy I might have been trying to sneak into the town circle? Any reasoning that you don't find genuine for any of my reads? Any pushes I've made that haven't been grounded in reality? I don't think you'll find anything. My strong townreads have been Grapefruit, Regfan, Delphine, and [you]. ******* nailed it. I might have had Newcomb and/or Nacho as town for some amount of time, but I was never super confident on it. I believed xequalsy, DV, and Iso to be scum incorrectly, but I stand by believing in them at the time. Hell, I still kind of think DV was scum and am still racking my brain for a way for Iso to be but apparently he just sucks at mafia now.
The part of this series that stands out to me as particularly ridiculous is "people are suspecting me from my play in this game! how ridiculous! Voxxicus can't play scum, why would I be able to???"
You and Voxxicus are different people entirely. What makes people bad at playing scum, typically, is people who don't like playing it. Some people who hate it can still pull out decent scumgames at times (Tammy), but when you hate doing something and you have to force yourself to post, it shows pretty strongly, and that's why Voxxicus's play is weak, not just because he has a style that is just too cruel for him to implement as scum.
The second part of this that is especially ridiculous is that somehow your townreads on Grapefruit (universal townread), Regfan (universal townread), and Vaimes (universal townread) somehow makes you town; you're right that the Delphine strong townread was unique to you, but you white knighting the hell out of one town player who otherwise looks scummy is something that's a staple of your play in general and one often replicated as scum (remember Rosie?). The "I wouldn't let Killjoy make a bad distancing case against you" is all sorts of atrocious unless you're the type to write cases for your partners in the scum QT (you aren't).
I'm struggling with you believing that people somehow aren't going to question you when we're in late game POE after all of X=Y, DV, and Iso are now town and Vaimes-Regfan are still alive.
No. I already said I thought about how I would play this style as scum. How to use the playstyle to my advantage. While me trying to be Voxx as town was always gonna be less than, I do have a fair amount of confidence I would use it as scum at least as well as he does. Because yes, I love being scum. Because he just townsides and let's his partners get lynched. But that's not my way. Hasn't been since my first couple of scum games when I just tried to act as if I was town and hope I lived.
So no. I'm not saying I'm town because I correctly townread people. Any scum can do that. It's actually easier to do when you know peoples' alignments. Duh. My very point in that statement was that Voxx could be scum here and I can't, because I'm a goddamn powerwolf. Like, you think if I rolled scum here I would copy Voxx's game including his failings? It's like you don't know me at all.
Also that Rosie thing was hilarious and I'd forgotten so thank you. (context: In Nacho's game on Westeros I was hard townreading/pocketing a very robotic player who's alt was the maid from gossip girl. Dorota was the character's name IIRC. I kept calling him Rosie from the Jetsons, with gifs and everything. God that game was fun.) But I think everyone here knows that I do that regardless of alignment (except Killjoy who doesn't use meta or some *****). Tammy calls them hipster townreads. I like the term.
I've done some pretty heavy coaching of late. Not every scumteam needs it, but you should see me and Empoof's scumdiscord from the MU mountainous game. It's not about crafting the posts though so much as giving him a starting point. That said, I don't even know what that starting point would be. Which is why you don't currently have a better reason than "Killjoy is town and Regfan is still alive"
My only concern about scumKilljoy being a thing is that I can't really place him as a buddy for anyone because tom, D_V, and I are basically the only people he's interacted with all game.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Nacho - I'm reading your Post #1422 as something very different to what Toms trying to get at; it's not his "I'm town because Voxx sucks as scum" type attitude that I liked inside his explanation behind his play inside Post #1422 where he elaborates on the lack of scum motivation behind majority of his play this game is relatively accurate, his thoughts and reads have mirrored mine very closely and find the transparency in which he's sharing them genuine.
If we lose the game, this is probably the reason we lose the game; how is Tom going "hmmm, Regfan looked town and is alive! I will look into him again" town when he doesn't know that this is the first lylo you've made it to as town?? But nope, it's like he says words and you townread him because your tom read is irrational at this point. I don't think that it was absurd for me to have a flash of paranoia on Vaimes; you're right that this game is outside of his scumrange and you're right that he was obviously town and I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult for me to refresh my memory on him but unlike you he hasn't been here constantly hitting us over the head with his towniness and so it's easy to forget. I didn't say that I had a townread on Killjoy that was going to last the ages, I said that Vaimes/Tom was a thought of mine at the beginning of the day.
Toms may be aware of the lack of my lylo play as town, I've mentioned it inside a few Obs QT's, whether he remembers that I'm not sure of but it's the manner that his comment came out that read fairly natural. And no, I don't think my town read there is 'irrational' and it's blindingly obvious that I'm making sure I'm not missing anything by going through every potential scum team and seeing which ones make sense and which don't. My issue continues to be your KJ read, sure I can understand slightly hesitating on locktown reading Vaimes but your initial post today shouldn't have had anywhere near the level of confidence that you did behind the KJ!Town read since believing that actually means you have to think that Vaimes is scum here and with Tom, both being super unlikely things. Sure it might have just been a 'small theory' at the start of the day but it's the fact you've maintained a fairly strong town read on KJ throughout the entirety of the game with me never really seeing it. Know you said you had more reading to do but with you agreeing about Vaimes+Tom not being a thing and being pretty certain I'm town here are you willing to at least concede that KJ is probably mafia because if you're town here he most certainly is.
My only concern about scumKilljoy being a thing is that I can't really place him as a buddy for anyone because tom, D_V, and I are basically the only people he's interacted with all game.
We seem to be reading the game in a very different manner, I think KJ (And Ophidia the predecessor) avoidance of Nacho points heavily towards them being a potential team here, especially when it's combined with the fact that Nachos been hard town reading that slot throughout the entirety of the game. I'll let you know what I think of the KJ+Tom or Tom+Nacho potentials in a few hours but would like some more thoughts from you.
When doing this wouldn't mind you taking a look at the viability of Tom and Nacho being a team, would like to compare thoughts & analysis on that when I'm done it too.
When doing this wouldn't mind you taking a look at the viability of Tom and Nacho being a team, would like to compare thoughts & analysis on that when I'm done it too.
I will do.
Sadly I was distracted by a certain someone and a certain Hearthstone card reveal video for the next expansion, so now I must leave for D&D. But after (we usually end about 6 hours from now) will continue.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Okay, finally got through Tom-Nacho interactions just Tom-KJ to go;
Tom/Nacho
Toms early town read on Nacho inside Post #45 would make sense with trying to get a partner inside the town pile early on; his first reads list inside Post #280 fits that as well, the placement of Nacho there doesn't really match the strength behind the reasoning and I could very much see Tom making a post like his "Town reading Nacho is fun!" on inside Post #308 about a partner, same goes for his Post #594. Nachos comment on Tom inside Post #316 have no alignment indicative stance taken out of it would make sense to do if they're together and his following few posts where he takes a stance on majority of the playerlist ignores Tom for the most part is problematic, first time he gets around to stating or explaining an actual read on Tom is inside Post #486 where he expands on a town read in a way that I can see him giving to a partner. Toms question towards Nacho inside Post #681 is a fairly awkward one to ask towards a partner and points slightly against them being a team but the maintenance of Nacho in the town area inside Post #702 while admitting the reasoning isn't great is a rather large concern. Toms response to Newcomb about Nacho inside Post #949 points against them being partners and really like the world he was considering then and the interaction surrounding the "Voxx would be tunneling me right now" around Post #971 and Post #973 etc doesn't read like a scum/scum interaction but where Tom ends up with Nacho being above Newcomb inside Post #977 makes plenty of sense as partners, as does his stance on Nacho yesterday isnide Post #1208 particularly using it as a "Don't have to deal with Nacho if he flips scum!" comment from him. Nachos stance today on Tom inside Post #1379 makes some sense as distancing but an actual goal there isn't partiuclarly noticable, him defending KJ would be defending the mslynch he'd be counting on in that world and the interaction it led to around Post #1422 and about Tom in Post #1423 points against it.
Pretty conflicted overall from that, there's lots of their play particularly in the early and mid game that makes sense as partners with Toms town read on Nacho throughout the game not really matching the strength of his reasoning and Nachos avoidance of Tom for large periods of the game but the interaction about Voxx around 970 and their play today points against them being partners. Still a possible world? I think Nacho+KJ is more likely though.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Vaimes's comment on Ophidia is inside Post #156 where he notes that he may be getting coached points slightly against them being partners as does him pointing out Ophidia being 'overly reasonable' inside Post #157. The interaction between Vaimes and Ophidia about scumchat closing in Post #161 and particularly Post #164 and Post #167 reads a very genuine interaction and one that I don't think happens between partners. I remember finding a lot of Vaimes thoughts on Ophidia around the time he voted him in Post #230 to match a lot of my thoughts then and the fact that Vaimes's follow up post inside Post #247 was him voting Pozzai I think it's a progression that points very heavily against being partners; I don't think Vaimes goes from voting one partner -> unvoting another partner that early into D1, similarly to Nacho I don't think he leaves both partners inside the four man pool in Post #297. Vaimes elaborated read and thoughts on Ophidia inside Post #586 is something I doubt he'd do if he already had a partner in trouble. KJs big replace in read being about Vaimes!Scum inside Post #745 also points against them being scum, albeit the fact that read vanished weakens that. Vaimes's vote on KJ inside Post #908 and constant talk about the Ophidia slot particularly in VCA points against them being scum too. Feel comfortable ruling out this team too which is somewhat of a relief in that I went into this thinking Vaimes's recent turnaround on KJ and KJs avoidance of Vaimes may be them setting up for today but there's enough interactions between the slots earlier in the game that makes me pretty sure they're not partners; I don't see Vaimes intentionally putting both of his partners in the spotlight unnecessarily like he would have had to multiple times if this was the world.
Still Possible:
1. Vaimes + Tom2. Vaimes + Nacho3. Vaimes + KJ4. Nacho + KJ
5. Nacho + Tom
6. KJ + Tom
So don't see any world that involves Vaimes in it being likely here; if anyone thinks I've ruled out a world incorrectly let me know but pretty confident Vaimes is just town here both from not fitting with anyone and from his play itself.
Anyway; I'm 1-shot, if it weren't obvious by this point. I'm going to re-read sometime next week - particularly Pozzai's stuff - and go from there, but I'm leaning No Lynch toDay.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
And tomorrow it'll be a situation where one misvote is game over whereas today that's not the case. Much better lynching here.
This is the part of the game where I think to myself, "Do I enjoy suffering, on some level? Is that why I keep signing up for this?"
---
Iso - 1 (xequalsy)
Pozzai - 2 (Vaimes, Regfan)
Regfan - 2 (Nachomamma8, Pozzai)
Vaimes - 1 (Ophidia)
xequalsy - 6 (Typhrous, Iso, DelphiBlue, Newcomb, Grapefruit21, tomsloger) (L-1)
I'm town.
I'm very, very evenly split on Regfan. On the one hand, he's been completely protown, transparent, and pushed on the scum Roleblocker pretty hard. On the other hand, scum have left him alone, meaning he's either scum or not a threat to them. I want to say that nobody has the stamina or drive to post as much content as he does as mafia. Plus, it makes no sense to bus what is very likely the only scum PR when you're very widely townread. You use your status to push mislynches.
I know I've been burned on the "townread scum have literally no reason to bus" logic at some point, in some game, but I'm willing to run with it here. Regfan could be scum here and still win town MVP at endgame.
Iso is...I dunno man. I don't think, as scum, he claims credit for an awful shot and then just completely vanishes. He's made me want to pull my hair out this game but I don't think he's mafia. Smaller (very recent) thing, but proposing a No Lynch as mafia here is also ??? unlikely.
Two scum in [tom, Nacho, Killjoy].
Boy, does tom look like the scum on the x=y wagon. Which is awful, because I think he's been really towny this game, beyond the Voxx persona (which is super ironic, because I'm sure Voxx would be ramming a lynch down tom's throat at this point, no brakes).
The alternative is, what, a Pozzai/Nacho/Killphidia team?
Re: Killjoy feeling like town: I'll pull those posts up in a bit.
Consider my vote on tom.
I know how difficult it can be to catch tom. It took uh, a lot of work/yelling and very last-minute cooperation to kill him in Bare Bones, to say the least. He says he's never been caught on behavior, which is a theme he seems to be repeating here. That's what happens when you inadvertently reveal the alignments of people on the main D1 wagon, I guess. Maybe it was worth it for them to snipe the Doc, but we'll see.
And I think overall the attitude of Killjoy's posts comes from someone trying to gamesolve but being annoyed that we're all autoscumreading him just because other people seem or have seemed townier.
Okay now I'm going to bed. This has been a Reassuring Wall of Posts by Vaimes to Reassure You All that He is Town.
Ophidias initial comment about town reading Nachos lack of caution inside Post #99 points slightly against them being partners in that it's fairly early to throw out a town read on a partner but the fact that was the only reasoning or mention he had on Nacho at all and placed him in his top town section of Post #488 is problematic and makes sense as partners. Nachos Post #316 directed to Ophidia re; how to handle & play the game comes across very soft in comparison to his commentary with most other players and find the town read that progresses from that in Post #320 and Post #321 makes a lot of sense as scum attempting to sneak a partner inside the town pool and while his point about the Ophidia slot down the bottom of Post #486 isn't an unreasonable point it's one that makes plenty of sense if they're scum together. Nachos comment about "Being a wizard and being able to see into Ophidias soul" inside Post #699 isn't the sort of phrasing scum use about a partner (and actually kind of reads very town on a relook) which points against this world existing and the weakening of the town read inside Post #701 based on the flip is a fairly good sign but Nachos statement that Killjoys response towards Iso re; potential counterclaim looks town regardless of it's intent inside Post #953 looks a lot like just trying to find reasoning to town read a partner.
Killjoys replace in town read on Nacho inside Post #745 makes a lot and I mean a lot of sense as partners here, it's based on effecitlvey nothing yet ended up being one of his few town reads, it worsens inside Post #1029 where he effectively ends up calling it a meta town read and admitting it has no other basis yet remains one of his two top reads at the time and contradicts fairly heavily with his "I don't use meta" statement to Tom inside Post#1322 (And is actually a rather big scum tell regardless of if this is the world or not) and his "Not looking at everyone" statement when I questioned him about his rereading method here inside Post #1243 makes sense wanting to avoid talking about a partner. His theory and "Tinfoiling" inside Post #1364 and his "Having trouble figuring it out inside Post #1369 both fit with him avoiding commenting on a partner and similarly Nacho popping in with his reads of KJ overtaking his Vaimes town read inside Post #1379 doesn't really fit past comments and does make sense with scum attempting to protect a partner today. Think it could very probably be Killjoy + Nacho as the scum team here, both Ophidia & Killjoy have town read Nacho fairly strongly, neither have explained the read or interacted with him at all throughout the game and Nachos strength of his town read on the slot has been something I've not really understood throughout the entire game (Most certainly don't get his recent stance of his KJ town read being stronger than his Vaimes one) which would fit in a world where he's trying to defend a partner and sneak them in the town pool.
Really want others thoughts on this.
And this is his comment to Tom about meta;
The fact that KJ's not ever got around to actually looking at Nachos posts properly or attempting to get a read on him and his reasoning for writing him off initially being meta based while claiming not to use or believe in meta is a fairly large contradiction and one that makes plenty of sense if we're dealing with a Nacho+Killjoy world, think it makes KJ likely mafia regardless too.
Alright I might do some casual reading later tonight but probably won't get through Tom+Nacho or Tom+KJ until tomorrow.
At this point I think I'd vote KJ so we really need you to get around to commenting on my recent posts when you can Vaimes.
So you still think he was "directionless and uncertain"? Because that is actually the least accurate thing you've said this entire game, and you are currently townreading Nacho for "having fun".
@Vaimes
Why did you choose that particular votecount to analyze? It seems a little random.
I think the most important thing here is how consistently those two slots have townread each other, seemingly not in line with their contributions. Like, I understand Vaimes' "yeah Killjoy seems kind of town" because I've had similar feeling about both inhabitants of that slot as well as Nacho. But there's just not enough there to call either a lock. At this point in the game, everyone (except Iso) has definitely had townie moments. But those two slots have just had less. That's all there is to it.
Not that having less townie moments is necessarily a good solution. But the strength of those mutual townreads is certainly disconcerting.
It's a lot of "Wanting to keep them out of the focus" from both of them which makes plenty of sense as a scum team here.
I'd like Nacho and Vaimes, especially, to talk about that process.
I wish I could dive into rereading right now but I have a show tomorrow and [redacted] still going on so it will have to wait a little. Perhaps tomorrow I can sneak in a reread of Newcomb's case on Nacho and why I thought there was always a scum between the two of them. I remember backing off Nacho because it would just be so blatant to have killed Newcomb there with his legacy being "Nacho is scum" and people besides me seeing that as a dichotomy, but Nacho has some pretty huge balls as scum and he obviously survived anyway.
Yeah, the progression there as well as his reaction towards Iso having scum reads on both you and himself didn't read a natural thought process.
I knew I wasn't gonna be able to talk you guys down from a D_V lynch. And good points where made that I hadn't considered, so I agreed with it.
And tom IS scum. He has to be, if Reg is right about Vaimes/Nacho not being a thing. It has to be tom/Nacho.
Also I swear it wasn't natural progression, tom's Pozz read I mean.
Also also I change my mind a lot near the endgame since there's so much info and etc.
I'll ISO Nacho tomorrow after work because I have to get up earlyish tomorrow.
No I'm not the towniest town. That would be Regfan. But I am certainly townier than you, Nacho, and Iso. Probably combined. You can tell from all the "reasons" I am scum being so... terrible. Like, if you're town I don't want to ***** on your work. But I read your case and can't even figure out how it lead to a scumread. Much less a "lock"
What was unnatural about my Pozzai read?
Much more importantly, what do you think of Newcomb's case on Nacho?
I'll get to other stuff after classes, around four or five hours from now.
I want this to be an easy game. I'd love it if I didn't have to second-guess who I think is mafia, but such is the nature of this hobby.
I know that tom being the only non-confirmed town on a town wagon D1 with all three mafia alive isn't a 100% slam-dunk case, but I also don't think it's something that should just be swept under the rug. Like, at the very least, that should prompt a thorough reread of him. I'm not going to try and read tom based on his behavior, because 1) it won't work, 2) he's stated out-of-game that it won't work, and 3) I'm gullible as ****, so it's not like it would do me any good. I have to catch tom via votes or weird interactions with confirmed scum. I only caught tom in Bare Bones after Silver basically spoonfed me his case, and it became obvious after that when tom tried to la-la-la it and force the last mislynch through.
Anyways.
The point is that I spent literally the entire game with a scumread on Silver, who was almost the game-winning mislynch for scum. I wanted him dead so, so badly. I couldn't fathom a world where he was town, especially after shadow flipped scum, and I almost snapvoted him in MyLo without a second thought. So I don't really want to just handwave Killjoy's slot without going over the game some more myself, because I have a really gross gut feeling that he's the game-winning mislynch. I think I'm the only one who thinks he could be town.
So just let me look at tom's posts, Killjoy's posts and Regfan's posts about him and think it over.
No I don't get to be mad with people suspecting me. I've had this conversation with Voxx himself. I've made my bed, now I have to lie in it. But people aren't suspecting me because I'm me (well, you a little), they are suspecting me from my play in this game. Which I find ridiculous. The originator of this playstyle is barely passable as scum with it (yes this is hearsay. I've never seen him be scum). Because the essence is finding town and let everyone else be lynched. And, well, I have. Especially if YOU are town, which I believe to be the case as of this moment. Like, look back at my big elimination posts. Can you find a buddy I might have been trying to sneak into the town circle? Any reasoning that you don't find genuine for any of my reads? Any pushes I've made that haven't been grounded in reality? I don't think you'll find anything. My strong townreads have been Grapefruit, Regfan, Delphine, and [you]. ******* nailed it. I might have had Newcomb and/or Nacho as town for some amount of time, but I was never super confident on it. I believed xequalsy, DV, and Iso to be scum incorrectly, but I stand by believing in them at the time. Hell, I still kind of think DV was scum and am still racking my brain for a way for Iso to be but apparently he just sucks at mafia now.
So you know me. We've been scum together before. You know scumtom always has a plan. Well what the **** was my plan here? Actively lynch one buddy and apparently just shrug about the other one all game before eventually just being ok with lynching them in lylo? Like, I know how I've played this game. And I'm telling you my only viable partners are you and Regfan. Because there is absolutely no way I would allow Killjoy to make that bad a case against me if we were distancing, and there's no way I would hang my entire Nacho townread on Newcomb and/or DV flipping scum if I knew they wouldn't. Because I don't do anything half ass. Yes this is self meta, but I actually thought a lot about how I would play this if I'd rolled scum this game. To my great disappointment, I did not.
This game has not been the full transparency of AYAW. I've already said I don't ever plan to do that again. At least not for a full game. Because it was ******* exhausting. But for you, because I absolutely need to find a way to let you townread me (for this game and the future), I will answer any questions. Anything at all. If I don't remember, I will go back through my own iso to figure it out, because most of my thoughts are alluded to if not explicitly stated in the thread. I'm not gonna ask you to just ignore who I am/what I'm capable of or whatever. Merely that you judge based on how I've played this game. And see that I'm super obviously town.
So. Vaimes.
I'm town. Ask me anything. And then we can lynch scum do that skipping off into the sunset together thing that we never quite seem to be able to do.
Everyone else, please ignore this post because it's out of character and for Vaimes only.
Just want to know how you chose it, because it's not from end of day, or at the largest point, or even a moment of significance as far as I can tell.
Because if you're scum (no I don't really believe that, but I'm gonna at least consider it) you chose one that lets you push me with no reasoning as well as making you look good for being on Pozzai. That's simple enough.
(I just got a really intense deja-vu moment. I swear I've written a very, very similar post to this one, and specifically to tom. Brains are weird.)
Anyway I'm afraid to read your post so I'm going to put it off for an hour or so while I do laundry instead.
You're not SURE you got any CLOSER.
VOTECOUNT
Not Voting - 6 (Vaimes, tomsloger, Iso, Killjoy, Regfan, Nachomamma8)
@Nacho - Really want to hear your thoughts particularly on the Vaimes/Tom pairing never existing when you get a chance.
@Vaimes - Would like your thoughts on my Nacho+KJ world post, specifically your thoughts on KJ & Ophidais constant avoidance on really ever looking at Nacho or trying to get a read on him throughout the entirety of the game & KJ's "meta" reasons behind his Nacho read in conjunction with his "I don't use meta" stance to keep pushing on Tom.
The part of this series that stands out to me as particularly ridiculous is "people are suspecting me from my play in this game! how ridiculous! Voxxicus can't play scum, why would I be able to???"
You and Voxxicus are different people entirely. What makes people bad at playing scum, typically, is people who don't like playing it. Some people who hate it can still pull out decent scumgames at times (Tammy), but when you hate doing something and you have to force yourself to post, it shows pretty strongly, and that's why Voxxicus's play is weak, not just because he has a style that is just too cruel for him to implement as scum.
The second part of this that is especially ridiculous is that somehow your townreads on Grapefruit (universal townread), Regfan (universal townread), and Vaimes (universal townread) somehow makes you town; you're right that the Delphine strong townread was unique to you, but you white knighting the hell out of one town player who otherwise looks scummy is something that's a staple of your play in general and one often replicated as scum (remember Rosie?). The "I wouldn't let Killjoy make a bad distancing case against you" is all sorts of atrocious unless you're the type to write cases for your partners in the scum QT (you aren't).
I'm struggling with you believing that people somehow aren't going to question you when we're in late game POE after all of X=Y, DV, and Iso are now town and Vaimes-Regfan are still alive.
If we lose the game, this is probably the reason we lose the game; how is Tom going "hmmm, Regfan looked town and is alive! I will look into him again" town when he doesn't know that this is the first lylo you've made it to as town??
But nope, it's like he says words and you townread him because your tom read is irrational at this point.
I don't think that it was absurd for me to have a flash of paranoia on Vaimes; you're right that this game is outside of his scumrange and you're right that he was obviously town and I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult for me to refresh my memory on him but unlike you he hasn't been here constantly hitting us over the head with his towniness and so it's easy to forget. I didn't say that I had a townread on Killjoy that was going to last the ages, I said that Vaimes/Tom was a thought of mine at the beginning of the day.
No. I already said I thought about how I would play this style as scum. How to use the playstyle to my advantage. While me trying to be Voxx as town was always gonna be less than, I do have a fair amount of confidence I would use it as scum at least as well as he does. Because yes, I love being scum. Because he just townsides and let's his partners get lynched. But that's not my way. Hasn't been since my first couple of scum games when I just tried to act as if I was town and hope I lived.
So no. I'm not saying I'm town because I correctly townread people. Any scum can do that. It's actually easier to do when you know peoples' alignments. Duh. My very point in that statement was that Voxx could be scum here and I can't, because I'm a goddamn powerwolf. Like, you think if I rolled scum here I would copy Voxx's game including his failings? It's like you don't know me at all.
Also that Rosie thing was hilarious and I'd forgotten so thank you. (context: In Nacho's game on Westeros I was hard townreading/pocketing a very robotic player who's alt was the maid from gossip girl. Dorota was the character's name IIRC. I kept calling him Rosie from the Jetsons, with gifs and everything. God that game was fun.) But I think everyone here knows that I do that regardless of alignment (except Killjoy who doesn't use meta or some *****). Tammy calls them hipster townreads. I like the term.
I've done some pretty heavy coaching of late. Not every scumteam needs it, but you should see me and Empoof's scumdiscord from the MU mountainous game. It's not about crafting the posts though so much as giving him a starting point. That said, I don't even know what that starting point would be. Which is why you don't currently have a better reason than "Killjoy is town and Regfan is still alive"
Because I am townie as ****.
See y'all tomorrow.
Just will take a little while longer (might be another weekend scenario).
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Toms may be aware of the lack of my lylo play as town, I've mentioned it inside a few Obs QT's, whether he remembers that I'm not sure of but it's the manner that his comment came out that read fairly natural. And no, I don't think my town read there is 'irrational' and it's blindingly obvious that I'm making sure I'm not missing anything by going through every potential scum team and seeing which ones make sense and which don't. My issue continues to be your KJ read, sure I can understand slightly hesitating on locktown reading Vaimes but your initial post today shouldn't have had anywhere near the level of confidence that you did behind the KJ!Town read since believing that actually means you have to think that Vaimes is scum here and with Tom, both being super unlikely things. Sure it might have just been a 'small theory' at the start of the day but it's the fact you've maintained a fairly strong town read on KJ throughout the entirety of the game with me never really seeing it. Know you said you had more reading to do but with you agreeing about Vaimes+Tom not being a thing and being pretty certain I'm town here are you willing to at least concede that KJ is probably mafia because if you're town here he most certainly is.
We seem to be reading the game in a very different manner, I think KJ (And Ophidia the predecessor) avoidance of Nacho points heavily towards them being a potential team here, especially when it's combined with the fact that Nachos been hard town reading that slot throughout the entirety of the game. I'll let you know what I think of the KJ+Tom or Tom+Nacho potentials in a few hours but would like some more thoughts from you.
When doing this wouldn't mind you taking a look at the viability of Tom and Nacho being a team, would like to compare thoughts & analysis on that when I'm done it too.
Sadly I was distracted by a certain someone and a certain Hearthstone card reveal video for the next expansion, so now I must leave for D&D. But after (we usually end about 6 hours from now) will continue.
Maybe I can convince you about Tom as well then.
See you all tomorrow.
Tom/Nacho
Toms early town read on Nacho inside Post #45 would make sense with trying to get a partner inside the town pile early on; his first reads list inside Post #280 fits that as well, the placement of Nacho there doesn't really match the strength behind the reasoning and I could very much see Tom making a post like his "Town reading Nacho is fun!" on inside Post #308 about a partner, same goes for his Post #594. Nachos comment on Tom inside Post #316 have no alignment indicative stance taken out of it would make sense to do if they're together and his following few posts where he takes a stance on majority of the playerlist ignores Tom for the most part is problematic, first time he gets around to stating or explaining an actual read on Tom is inside Post #486 where he expands on a town read in a way that I can see him giving to a partner. Toms question towards Nacho inside Post #681 is a fairly awkward one to ask towards a partner and points slightly against them being a team but the maintenance of Nacho in the town area inside Post #702 while admitting the reasoning isn't great is a rather large concern. Toms response to Newcomb about Nacho inside Post #949 points against them being partners and really like the world he was considering then and the interaction surrounding the "Voxx would be tunneling me right now" around Post #971 and Post #973 etc doesn't read like a scum/scum interaction but where Tom ends up with Nacho being above Newcomb inside Post #977 makes plenty of sense as partners, as does his stance on Nacho yesterday isnide Post #1208 particularly using it as a "Don't have to deal with Nacho if he flips scum!" comment from him. Nachos stance today on Tom inside Post #1379 makes some sense as distancing but an actual goal there isn't partiuclarly noticable, him defending KJ would be defending the mslynch he'd be counting on in that world and the interaction it led to around Post #1422 and about Tom in Post #1423 points against it.
Pretty conflicted overall from that, there's lots of their play particularly in the early and mid game that makes sense as partners with Toms town read on Nacho throughout the game not really matching the strength of his reasoning and Nachos avoidance of Tom for large periods of the game but the interaction about Voxx around 970 and their play today points against them being partners. Still a possible world? I think Nacho+KJ is more likely though.