i already prefaced stating that lying does not necessarily imply scum. see my question earlier to rodemy. so DV stating that he was jailed does not implicate him. i never believed his jailed story, but i didn't think he was scum for it.
DV, look buddy. i'm on your side here. but i have information that gives me incredibly strong reason to believe you lied about being jailed. OK sure, it's still within the realm of possibility, but i highly doubt it. i still don't think your lie comes from a scum mindset.
now, what do we do with this? i don't know. you have two choices from my pov: retract your claim or stick to it. personally, i don't give a damn. if you retract, that could prove problematic for you. if you stick to your guns, that could prove problematic for me, but it's a risk i'm willing to take for... reasons. SO! i say we just take this limited information i've provided, carry on, and see who/if anyone gets jailed going forward.
i already prefaced stating that lying does not necessarily imply scum. see my question earlier to rodemy. so DV stating that he was jailed does not implicate him. i never believed his jailed story, but i didn't think he was scum for it.
DV, look buddy. i'm on your side here. but i have information that gives me incredibly strong reason to believe you lied about being jailed. OK sure, it's still within the realm of possibility, but i highly doubt it. i still don't think your lie comes from a scum mindset.
now, what do we do with this? i don't know. you have two choices from my pov: retract your claim or stick to it. personally, i don't give a damn. if you retract, that could prove problematic for you. if you stick to your guns, that could prove problematic for me, but it's a risk i'm willing to take for... reasons. SO! i say we just take this limited information i've provided, carry on, and see who/if anyone gets jailed going forward.
I'm curious if you could share why then.
I've started to think the jailer is scum possibly.
i never said anything i intended to be construed to mean 'i should be voting DV,' because i believe DV's neutral claim. that's clear, yes?
i really think it's a red herring for you to bring up the timing of my providing this information when i've been so inactive for most of the game so far.
i didn't imply DV "could" be town. i implied he isn't scum for lying, i.e. he is neutral as he claimed. why are you struggling to grasp this?
i haven't missed the jailer discussion, i just chose to refrain from entering it until i got a decent feel for the day.
[quote from="scarbo »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/765782-overwatch-mafia-day-2-numbani?comment=1026"]I've started to think the jailer is scum possibly.
You can't really blame /me/ for the timing. I didn't think that's something anyone would sit on. And being absent is no excuse, it's the first thing you would have seen upon starting your catchup, which I'm assuming was a couple days ago at least, since you asked Rod about DV and the Jailer.
Also I have no idea how you could be reading DV as Neutral but also not think anything of the Jailer claim if you have evidence that he's lying.
It doesn't seem like a very useful scum role. Mafia don't really need protection, they don't want to roleblock each other, and they don't need an extra QT.
They can block townies and maybe score some townpoints for the role, but that's about it.
You can't really blame /me/ for the timing. I didn't think that's something anyone would sit on. And being absent is no excuse, it's the first thing you would have seen upon starting your catchup, which I'm assuming was a couple days ago at least, since you asked Rod about DV and the Jailer.
Also I have no idea how you could be reading DV as Neutral but also not think anything of the Jailer claim if you have evidence that he's lying.
It doesn't seem like a very useful scum role. Mafia don't really need protection, they don't want to roleblock each other, and they don't need an extra QT.
They can block townies and maybe score some townpoints for the role, but that's about it.
@Vaimes: you say that you don't see Scarbo waiting with his no jailor claim doesn't come from town. What is the scum!Scarbo reason to wait with that then?
wait wait wait wait wait. why the literal **** would a scum jailer not kill you?
that really changes this entire discussion.
Unvote
Vote: D_V
You just said you had proof that there IS no Jailer, so what does it matter if the Jailer's alignment is town or scum???
that's exactly the point. if DV is lying about their being a jailer, he can't at the same time say the jailer could have killed him and also possibly be scum. it's just an inconsistent set of premises.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Why does the act of him speculating on the alignment of the Jailer suddenly make you suspicious if /from the start/ you didn't think there was a Jailer at all?
Possibly a fourth mafia, but I have no idea who that would be.
An ISO/Vaimes/Scarbo lynch might provide us with the info we need and we can drag the scum out with little problem. I still think that scarbo has the highest chance to be mafia tho.
I tried to compare the maf team side by side but the forum does not allow me to do so. Well.
I have a small opportunity to post, so I wanted to use this time to clarify some things I've had trouble grasping, as well ask a couple of questions. I should also have a little time tonight after my lab.
@D_V: Are we just hoping you're telling the truth? Aside from that hope, what makes you town? I just feel like none of your play this game has made me think you're town, and as I've beaten to death enough, your play has only made it much more confusing for town to figure out the game, and much easier for scum to hide.
Do you have a post with all your reads that you could link me to? If not, could I get your town/scum list?
@Ophidia: Of the players you listed (Iso, Vaimes, and Scarbo), who do you think will provide the best info, and why? Why do you feel that Iso or Scarbo would provide more information than Vaimes, despite the difference in activity?
Let's assume none of these players are scum -- where do you go from there, and why?
@Vaimes: In post #1008, you seem to suggest that Scarbo is scum. If so, why not kill him now? How do you also know that he's not "the head of the snake"? Assuming we have a three man scum team, how would lynching Scarbo not be an incredibly +++ move on town's behalf after just having killed scum and having no NK? We'd have lost 0 town players and 2 scum before even reachig night 2.
@Everyone: Why are we speculating a scum jailer, and how does that even make sense in terms of D_V's claims? This is just further proof that D_V has not made it any easier for town. Scum could so easily just sit and throw around baseless speculation right now and the game goes nowhere while they laugh at us trying to solve the game.
@Everyone: Could we actually have everyone post T/S lists? I feel that now is a pretty good point for it, and I've always been a firm believer that votal analysis + reads analysis is the best way to find scum, so would definitely be appreciated.
@D_V: Are we just hoping you're telling the truth? Aside from that hope, what makes you town? I just feel like none of your play this game has made me think you're town, and as I've beaten to death enough, your play has only made it much more confusing for town to figure out the game, and much easier for scum to hide.
@Ophidia: Of the players you listed (Iso, Vaimes, and Scarbo), who do you think will provide the best info, and why? Why do you feel that Iso or Scarbo would provide more information than Vaimes, despite the difference in activity?
Let's assume none of these players are scum -- where do you go from there, and why?
I would say a Vaimes lynch would be best for info. His lynch tells us if Iso/scarbo is scum nor not, which is a huge step forward.
I would wait before I do anything, however, and Vaimes should, to me, definitely vote Scarbo.
Scum Jailer makes so little sense to exist as a role anyway, so lending any credence to that theory feels like we are leveling ourselves. This is a normal, so no weird bull*****, and really what does a scum Jailer do for the scumteam? Not a whole lot.
@DV do you really think Vaimes and ISO could be scum? I guess Iso is capable of the turbobus, but seems a bit of a stretch this point
Thanks to everyone who has replied so far, I'll get back to you in more detail tonight with my thoughts and responses.
Another question for everyone, what are we assuming happened to the mafia NK, if D_V is telling the truth? That D_V was the kill? Or that someone else was the kill and was protected?
@D_V: Are we just hoping you're telling the truth? Aside from that hope, what makes you town? I just feel like none of your play this game has made me think you're town, and as I've beaten to death enough, your play has only made it much more confusing for town to figure out the game, and much easier for scum to hide.
I just don't even know what the **** it gains me.
What does lying about jailing do for me?
concidering the end of d1.. it saved you from being the lynch toDay. If vaimes does claim jailer, good chance he and d_v are scum conciderinf his openig post for toDay
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thank you for choosing
Rodemy Pizza
It’s not the best choice, but it’s a choice nonetheless
So, on the plus side, I got booted from a game on another site for not posting enough(!), and Iso's Avalon game hasn't started yet, so my overcommitment is lessened...but I still don't have a lot of time to devote to anything, so...sorry.
I'm doing some rereading, especially of DV, but it's slow going.
I see Ghosting is asking good questions, which strengthens my town read of him.
I'm leaning toward DV being truthful that he was jailed; I just can't see what scum!DV gains from the lie, and it also doesn't seem like the kind of lie that would end up helping town (not that that means anything, I guess, as if DV is town, I'm not sure the lies he told D1 helped us, either). If DV's town, then I think it's entirely possible that he was the intended NK and the jailer prevented it. DV's actions at end of D1 notwithstanding, he's an experienced player, so I could see a scumteam going after him regardless.
If DV's scum, then obviously something else prevented the NK, such as a doc or town-roleblocker, but those roles seem much less likely if we have a jailer.
Likely Scum:
Vaimes and D_V, but I haven't devoted the time to see if they can be scum together.
A couple of light observations pulled from my notes:
• If Vaimes is scum, Hunt is less likely to be so.
• If one of Anak or Hunt come up scum, the other should be scrutinized.
Sorry I can't provide more right now, but I'll find some time soon. SOOOOOOON.
@D_V: Are we just hoping you're telling the truth? Aside from that hope, what makes you town? I just feel like none of your play this game has made me think you're town, and as I've beaten to death enough, your play has only made it much more confusing for town to figure out the game, and much easier for scum to hide.
I just don't even know what the **** it gains me.
What does lying about jailing do for me?
concidering the end of d1.. it saved you from being the lynch toDay. If vaimes does claim jailer, good chance he and d_v are scum conciderinf his openig post for toDay
No it doesn't.
By your narrative I had just lynched my buddy to appear town with an over the top gambit. Then for I claim another RANDOM name?
For what reason do I as scum do so?
Thanks to everyone who has replied so far, I'll get back to you in more detail tonight with my thoughts and responses.
Another question for everyone, what are we assuming happened to the mafia NK, if D_V is telling the truth? That D_V was the kill? Or that someone else was the kill and was protected?
@D_V: Are we just hoping you're telling the truth? Aside from that hope, what makes you town? I just feel like none of your play this game has made me think you're town, and as I've beaten to death enough, your play has only made it much more confusing for town to figure out the game, and much easier for scum to hide.
I just don't even know what the **** it gains me.
What does lying about jailing do for me?
concidering the end of d1.. it saved you from being the lynch toDay. If vaimes does claim jailer, good chance he and d_v are scum conciderinf his openig post for toDay
No it doesn't.
By your narrative I had just lynched my buddy to appear town with an over the top gambit. Then for I claim another RANDOM name?
For what reason do I as scum do so?
Why?
This is the reason why I see D_V as more lean town on the null pile.
But if this is true, the kill was either not done for whatever reason, or it was stopped, right? And if a town player stopped it, wouldn't they claim because they would for sure know another scum member then? Why else would the kill fail?
But if this is true, the kill was either not done for whatever reason, or it was stopped, right? And if a town player stopped it, wouldn't they claim because they would for sure know another scum member then? Why else would the kill fail?
Doctor wouldn't claim.
IDK maybe we have a bus driver too. No that wouldn't work.
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe scum did want me dead. I just like set myself up as WIFOM for mafia.
Maybe the mafia were both replacements and didn't get a kill out.
Brakes on full stop on the Vaimes wagon. I had a revelation while I was thinking about this game at work today, and...I forgot what it was because I got a call.
But I'm much more comfortable with lynching Huntzilla or Ghosting toDay, and after the hop on Vaimes, scarbo also seems like a good body to have flipped.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Hi Ghosting, why do you think there isn't a town Roleblocker?
If there is, and they roleblocked scum, would it not be in their and our best interest for them to claim who they blocked? They would 100% know we have scum, so that's why I'm assuming here. Not even factoring in the likelihood of that RB to hit the player making the kill.
Do you think DV is Neutral?
I'm curious if you could share why then.
I've started to think the jailer is scum possibly.
i never said anything i intended to be construed to mean 'i should be voting DV,' because i believe DV's neutral claim. that's clear, yes?
i really think it's a red herring for you to bring up the timing of my providing this information when i've been so inactive for most of the game so far.
i didn't imply DV "could" be town. i implied he isn't scum for lying, i.e. he is neutral as he claimed. why are you struggling to grasp this?
i haven't missed the jailer discussion, i just chose to refrain from entering it until i got a decent feel for the day.
oh? why's that?
that really changes this entire discussion.
Unvote
Vote: D_V
Also I have no idea how you could be reading DV as Neutral but also not think anything of the Jailer claim if you have evidence that he's lying.
It doesn't seem like a very useful scum role. Mafia don't really need protection, they don't want to roleblock each other, and they don't need an extra QT.
They can block townies and maybe score some townpoints for the role, but that's about it.
Because then the scum jailer was lying about having a kill.
I don't know he has the kill.
That's a good point.
This is what I thought I quoted.
D_V, were you or were you not jailed? now is your final chance to come clean.
Yes I was.
ZZZ waiting on that great evidence he had.
More accusations of lying in this thread, over a role that we still don't know if it even exists and what its abilities if it does.
@Scarbo - Why did you bring it up now and not wait for Day 3 when you have more info about who got jailed/not jailed?
that's exactly the point. if DV is lying about their being a jailer, he can't at the same time say the jailer could have killed him and also possibly be scum. it's just an inconsistent set of premises.
i was going to but i was drunk last night.
I left my goddamn notebook at work last night so yeah. That sucked.
Based on my read, so far, my scum reads are Huntzilla, Ghosting, and Vaimes. That said, I absolutely hate scarbo's jump on Vaimes, here.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
dude read my last post. why are you fishing? i think enough has been said at this point.
Why does the act of him speculating on the alignment of the Jailer suddenly make you suspicious if /from the start/ you didn't think there was a Jailer at all?
Zomg---------Zomg
Iso----or----Vaimes
Scarbo---or---D_V/Huntz
Possibly a fourth mafia, but I have no idea who that would be.
An ISO/Vaimes/Scarbo lynch might provide us with the info we need and we can drag the scum out with little problem. I still think that scarbo has the highest chance to be mafia tho.
I tried to compare the maf team side by side but the forum does not allow me to do so. Well.
@D_V: Are we just hoping you're telling the truth? Aside from that hope, what makes you town? I just feel like none of your play this game has made me think you're town, and as I've beaten to death enough, your play has only made it much more confusing for town to figure out the game, and much easier for scum to hide.
Do you have a post with all your reads that you could link me to? If not, could I get your town/scum list?
@Ophidia: Of the players you listed (Iso, Vaimes, and Scarbo), who do you think will provide the best info, and why? Why do you feel that Iso or Scarbo would provide more information than Vaimes, despite the difference in activity?
Let's assume none of these players are scum -- where do you go from there, and why?
@Vaimes: In post #1008, you seem to suggest that Scarbo is scum. If so, why not kill him now? How do you also know that he's not "the head of the snake"? Assuming we have a three man scum team, how would lynching Scarbo not be an incredibly +++ move on town's behalf after just having killed scum and having no NK? We'd have lost 0 town players and 2 scum before even reachig night 2.
@Everyone: Why are we speculating a scum jailer, and how does that even make sense in terms of D_V's claims? This is just further proof that D_V has not made it any easier for town. Scum could so easily just sit and throw around baseless speculation right now and the game goes nowhere while they laugh at us trying to solve the game.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
D_V
Shadow
Rodemy
Cantripmancer
Ophidia
Mete0r/Atog
Rhand
Null
Ghosting
Huntzilla
Lean scum
Iso/Kitty
scarbo
Scummy
Vaimes
Scum
zomgarcwind
I just don't even know what the **** it gains me.
What does lying about jailing do for me?
I would say a Vaimes lynch would be best for info. His lynch tells us if Iso/scarbo is scum nor not, which is a huge step forward.
I would wait before I do anything, however, and Vaimes should, to me, definitely vote Scarbo.
Ophidia
Rodemy
Rhand
Cantrip
Meteor
Null
Shadow
Ghostling
Huntz
D_V
Anak
Lynchable
Scarbo
Vaimes
Iso
The null people should really start posting. Scum might be hiding among them and town might just be fighting each other.
You missed Anak in your list.
@DV do you really think Vaimes and ISO could be scum? I guess Iso is capable of the turbobus, but seems a bit of a stretch this point
Another question for everyone, what are we assuming happened to the mafia NK, if D_V is telling the truth? That D_V was the kill? Or that someone else was the kill and was protected?
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
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StaffIf there is a jailor, however, idk who it is gonna be. The jailor is not going to stand out and support D_V, obvious.
There is still a teeny weeny chance that vaimes is jailor, but it is not that likely to take into account.
I'm doing some rereading, especially of DV, but it's slow going.
I see Ghosting is asking good questions, which strengthens my town read of him.
I'm leaning toward DV being truthful that he was jailed; I just can't see what scum!DV gains from the lie, and it also doesn't seem like the kind of lie that would end up helping town (not that that means anything, I guess, as if DV is town, I'm not sure the lies he told D1 helped us, either). If DV's town, then I think it's entirely possible that he was the intended NK and the jailer prevented it. DV's actions at end of D1 notwithstanding, he's an experienced player, so I could see a scumteam going after him regardless.
If DV's scum, then obviously something else prevented the NK, such as a doc or town-roleblocker, but those roles seem much less likely if we have a jailer.
T/S List:
Town:
Cantripmancer
Rodemy
Ophidia
Lean Town:
Rhand
Ghosting
Mete0rShower/Atogoholic
shadowlancerx
Scarbo
Still Null:
Iso/kittythegoddess
Lean Scum:
Anaklusmos/red_0mega
Huntzilla
Likely Scum:
Vaimes and D_V, but I haven't devoted the time to see if they can be scum together.
A couple of light observations pulled from my notes:
• If Vaimes is scum, Hunt is less likely to be so.
• If one of Anak or Hunt come up scum, the other should be scrutinized.
Sorry I can't provide more right now, but I'll find some time soon. SOOOOOOON.
No it doesn't.
By your narrative I had just lynched my buddy to appear town with an over the top gambit. Then for I claim another RANDOM name?
For what reason do I as scum do so?
Why?
I'm like 90% certain I wasn't the night kill.
This is the reason why I see D_V as more lean town on the null pile.
IF we actually have a neutral, however...
But if this is true, the kill was either not done for whatever reason, or it was stopped, right? And if a town player stopped it, wouldn't they claim because they would for sure know another scum member then? Why else would the kill fail?
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Doctor wouldn't claim.
IDK maybe we have a bus driver too. No that wouldn't work.
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe scum did want me dead. I just like set myself up as WIFOM for mafia.
Maybe the mafia were both replacements and didn't get a kill out.
How did you go from 90% sure you weren't the kill, to now you think you might've been the kill?
Do you genuinely think the mafia were both replacements, and also that the moderator would allow two replacements to not have had time to make a kill?
You think the doctor protected you?
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Brakes on full stop on the Vaimes wagon. I had a revelation while I was thinking about this game at work today, and...I forgot what it was because I got a call.
But I'm much more comfortable with lynching Huntzilla or Ghosting toDay, and after the hop on Vaimes, scarbo also seems like a good body to have flipped.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Hi Ghosting, why do you think there isn't a town Roleblocker?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
If there is, and they roleblocked scum, would it not be in their and our best interest for them to claim who they blocked? They would 100% know we have scum, so that's why I'm assuming here. Not even factoring in the likelihood of that RB to hit the player making the kill.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1