The 'with reservations' thing is because you were tying me to Eco. I'm town. So you being all 'Yeah if Eco flips scum Voxx is totes scum' sets off all kind of alarm bells, because that's absolutely the way people would try to mislynch me. It won't be on my own merits, it will be off interactions spun to look a certain way.
This is probably true in general and very, very true for me specifically. We've talked mafia so much over the last year and we approach the game in such a similar way, that on any given D1 I believe it would be almost impossible for me to read your ISO by itself and think you were strongly mafia.
If you are scum here, on D1, before you've had the chance to drop off Towny Energy, then interactions with others - how your buddies talk about you - is absolutely the way to do it. Like that offsite game where you were buddies with Jan - if someone was going to bury you D1, it was off how he was talking about you.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Dunno if you'd try to spew yourself via tl;drs, since according to Jan, you're super lazy as scum.
This is, through and through, a scum post. Blows off a post that another person put a ton of effort into by personally belittling them, and then tries to soften the blow by saying said person is probably town.
@Newcomb: I'm disappointed that you ran out of steam right as I finally posted something of substance. I was really curious what you would say about it.
I feel like I'm on shaky ground here commenting on something about me, since I'm biased, but man, I just do not see how you can read the early me/Vaimes interaction and come away thinking that's w/w. Like. There's scum!theater and then there's... yeah I don't even know how to describe what that interaction would have to be if it was w/w. How do you get there in your head, if that's a genuine thought? Really not sure.
I was reading the thread and saw a back and forth between you and Vaimes. Your posts didn't look great, so it seemed like you could be scum. And Vaimes posts looked completely predatory. So my initial judgement was that you might both be scum, and Vaimes was very likely to be so.
Also, on a related(ish) note, I wasn't trying to say that Seppel is mafia. I have no idea of Seppel's alignment. I didn't like his initial vote on Eco and still don't, regardless of the fact that I now think Eco is scum. I gave up awhile ago on trying to get early Seppel reads.
@Cyan re: second bolded - what was I supposed to notice about it?
Vaimes is just brazenly lying here, to try and not actually have to address me. There is virtually no chance that he actually thought that I would vote him, based on his interactions with you, a person I have never seen before. Especially when I hadn't even posted yet.
And you'll note that, in the end, he STILL hasn't addressed anything I've said. He just OMGUS voted me, but of course waited until it looks like Eco isn't going to get lynched anymore, citing some other complete nonsense.
Cyan, I'm curious. Exactly what kind of flavor and texture does complete and total bull***** have?
I don't recall you asking me anything specific. Just making sweeping gestures at my posts and declaring me scum. You're someone else I don't think direct engagement on the topic of me will ever lead to anything productive.
Also yeah, I totally blew off Newcomb and didn't bother to read his post in detail to see if he was just blah blah blah'ing or actually trying to figure out the game. Just waved it aside and townread him for effort.
If Newcomb feels like I brushed him off, he can say so himself. But I think he and I are friends enough that he knows what I meant contextually.
I don't even really think it's relevant to anything. Just like...a fun fact.
I forgot about you, and then I read a post by Iso that said something like "the lack of counterwagon or pushback makes the Cyan slot more likely scum."
So I started thinking: who would Cyan vote in his first post? I know I can be spammy and fluffy and I don't hard-push people and i sheep a lot. So probably me.
Just in case this particular point is actually important to you.
Yeah, I think I just accidentally caught Iso for 1/2 wrong reasons, and 1/2 right reasons. The wrong ones being mostly related to Eco, hence his laughing at people for theorizing he's bad scum, comment.
Let's see. So that leaves us looking at something like:
8. Azrael - town
9. Newcomb - hard-town.
12. Seppel - TOWN.
2. Gentleman Johnny - Townish.
6. Sir Chris -null
10. Cyan -meh
11. mallorean_thug?
4. Vaimes - reexamine with possibility of Eco not scum.
5. Voxxicus- reexamine with possibility of Eco not scum.
3. tomsloger - nefarious sneaky spider camouflage. Makes the most sense as a scum defensive tactic.
7. Ecophagy - scum?
1. Iso scum!
He's not someone I can read with high degree of confidence on D1 so I usually just kind of let him do his thing while I do my thing (poking people I find it a priority to try and get a read on, while letting information accumulate via other people doing things).
Talk to me about Iso being scum, or point me to where you've talked about it.
A re-read of you is still on the menu because immediately doing the thing I just talked about expecting you to do as town, but you weren't, has me squinty-eyed.
A re-read of you is still on the menu because immediately doing the thing I just talked about expecting you to do as town, but you weren't, has me squinty-eyed.
Town me never stops doing that constantly, so that seems pretty NAI.
Yeah, I think I just accidentally caught Iso for 1/2 wrong reasons, and 1/2 right reasons. The wrong ones being mostly related to Eco, hence his laughing at people for theorizing he's bad scum, comment.
Even though you're still bad scum, Iso.
I'm laughing at people for theorizing I'm bad scum because that's the only way the case on me makes sense.
(Spoilers: The case on me doesn't make sense, and not just because I'm town.)
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm tempted to claim just to preempt any garbage derailing of this thread with a potential Iso wagon and get us back on track. Like I said before, Az: Get on my level.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Like...as soon as I called the Eco/GJ/Cyan team, GJ and Cyan very abruptly changed what they were doing in a very self-conscious way. You have to be ******* blind not to see that.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Like...as soon as I called the Eco/GJ/Cyan team, GJ and Cyan very abruptly changed what they were doing in a very self-conscious way. You have to be ******* blind not to see that.
You mean the part where I was voting Vaimes, and..still am? And I had just started posting, the idea that I've dramatically changed what I'm doing is completely unfounded.
This is comically flawed. First, you just gloss over Newcombe and Vaimes, all in order to ultimately just try and paint me as scum. But let's really dig in here.
Here are Vaimes posts, relevant to Eco:
So I'm just preemptively cursing this goddamn interface because this big post by Cyan pulls a bunch of quotes from Vaimes and Iso, and there's really just no way to break it up without manually going in every time and snipping it. FantasyStrike used to have this feature where you could highlight text in a post, and a little box would pop up and it would pull just that text as a quote for you.
I miss that feature a lot.
Anyway. So yeah I think that the glossing over me/Vaimes is a reasonable point; I kinda saw that too re: Iso. The mindset where you're very confident in two scum, and sorting the game trying to find the third, versus so waffly/unengaged that you just clear two people because you "liked their big posts" doesn't feel quite real.
That being said, I could certainly imagine this from town here. Everyone has a way to handle D1 when you have the entire playerlist and you're trying to narrow things down. I'm not crazy about the way Iso is building this particular Jenga tower, but I don't read it and think "scum!", I guess is what I'm saying.
He doesn't know WHY Seppel voted Eco, but said vote hop made him not only read Seppel as town, but also made him jump on the wagon.
This explanation makes absolutely no sense. Just because 'person is town' doesn't mean that you follow them onto wagons. This tells me that Vaimes is scum, and either A)realizes that his scumbuddy Eco is under fire or B)just going along for the ride on an what he sees as an easy vote.
This is about Vaimes hopping on after Seppel. And idk, it kinda does? This is like post 15 of the game, and I pretty much buy that from Vaimes specifically.
This is Vaimed talking to Newcombe. There is nothing town about this post. Nothing. I've changed my mind re: Newcombe also being scum, but Vaimes is scum through and through here.
Yeah, disagree with this too. Maybe you have to have some meta with us, but this is a completely null thing for Vaimes to poke me about. We play with Mal a lot, and in any given game you can count on Mal to ***** about people voting approximately 10002828382 times. "Voting is pro-town" is practically a permanent groove in Vaimes's brain.
Note that this is already more effort than he ever put into the Eco wagon.
Yeah, true, but like - if you buy that his initial hop onto the wagon was more about townreading Seppel and wanting to see what Eco did / where it went, then it's not like you'd expect him to be particularly committed to it.
Still no actual reason why Eco is a 'scumread'. He just doesn't want to lose his position on that wagon.
Vaimes is scum, and that's that.
Implying that he's scum WITH Eco, right? Because the only way I can see scum!Vaimes wanting to preserve his spot on that wagon is if Eco is his buddy. Which... I guess is /possible/? Idk, gun to my head both Eco and Vaimes are town here, so.
My meta impression of Vaimes is that he's not usually going to go after people hard, early, or even at all sometimes. The only thing I really didn't like from him was his treatment of me early, and I think that's far outweighed by the little tidbits Voxx and I have picked out that I really just don't think he'd think to think of, as scum. If I'm wrong, that'll be unfortunate, but I'm just not going there D1 when I have this strong of a townread on him.
So now, let's get back to Iso. How is it that you missed all of this in your efforts here?
Reality is that you just wanted to paint me as scum, rather than logically assess the situation. But why? What do you have to gain here?
My best conclusion is that the scum team is Iso, Vaimes, Eco. Iso has decided that Eco is going down, and is just trying to salvage the situation by getting attention away from his other scumbuddy and onto myself/GJ instead.
So, let's take a look at the Iso/Eco interaction.
I feel like tacking on the bolded part here is, hm. Theatrical? Like, saying Iso is painting you as scum kind of already implies what he has to gain. There's no mystery.
No actual reason why he would be voting Eco, just willing to go along while other people put in the work. This is emphatically not how town Iso operates.
I can't match your experience with Iso, but I will say that I didn't have a problem with that particular part of that post. My impression of the early game matched that exactly - Seppel and Azreal felt right, Eco felt wrong. It's a mix of gut and tone and not something you can really go on and on about, but I did feel that, so it doesn't raise any eyebrows for Iso to go there.
I get the distinct feeling that Cyan is annoyed by the Eco wagon, but is also scumreading Eco.
Villager rating: plummeting.
And yeah, this. Cyan blasts Vaimes for voting Eco without any reason, and Iso for voting Eco without any reason, and in his first post called the whole Eco wagon "much ado about nothing" or something like that, and is now fully confident the team is Eco/Iso/Vaimes. I don't really see a genuine mindset progression there.
@Cyan: So I'm magically part of the scum team, but you haven't actually given any explanation of why or even hinted at a scum read of me until now? This is just an incredibly obvious attempt to join the bandwagon and force my mislynch through. Vote Cyan
I'm at L-2. Still. If Chris comes in and continues to vote me, I'll claim.
Right. It makes all of the sense in the world for me to pass on your wagon initially, and then join it later when I'm fully under the microscope, and that wagon was clearly going ahead anyway. Nice try.
I'm just doing what Iso has been telling me to for years now. Find a scum team that makes sense as a unit. You, Vaimes, Iso makes complete sense. Blame your scumbuddies for bussing you if you want to be mad at someone.
But the premise linking Iso and Vaimes to Eco deals with how they hopped on Eco without any substantial reasons. You're presupposing that both his partners treated him in the exact same way. Why couldn't his partner be Chris, who's now defending him - "trying to salvage his team," or Voxx, who cast shade at Eco but didn't vote him? Or me, I guess, for the same thing? Like - you start with the premise that you don't like Iso and Vaimes's posts for how they treat Eco and also kinda for their internal logic, then decide it makes sense that Eco's being bussed by them, but then don't work it the other way and check your assumptions?
Ehh. Cyan does kinda feel like scum here just for a lack of, I guess, solving? depth? Thing is, from what I remember of Cyan from Stargate, it's pretty indicative of his towngame to do the whole "pick a narrative, push it forever" thing. With a certain amount of "bounce" where he'll abruptly move on. Like the me/Vaimes thing he's evolved on to "just Vaimes"? I... don't reeeeeally townread Cyan here, but I wouldn't be shocked if he flipped town.
I'm guessing Iso thinks Cyan and GJ are mafia somehow. Otherwise he'd care about why they think he's scum.
Given that I literally stated the scumteam is Eco/GJ/Cyan, I'm not sure why you felt this even warranted a post.
If I had a dollar every time you made a list of the scum team in a game, I would be rich enough to not have to deal with you peasants. Whatcha going to ******* do about it?
So before I have done a proper read (Yeah I know I am slow) the thing that strikes me about Eco is his fundamental hope about this situation. He has been trained all day, has had no room to breathe, and yet he still finds it within him to wait until every last outstanding vote is accounted for before bending to claiming. Like "Maybe Chris will see I am town and we can avoid this."
I don't think scum have this much of a backbone in general.
##unvote: Eco
Tend to agree with this, I think? Especially since if Eco's scum here then he's the epitome of "careful/reasonable" scum archetype. Being stubborn / holding out on claiming when the site has such a rigid convention of "you always claim at L-2" does not strike me as fitting into that archetype.
Speaking of, Tom do you think I'm scum? If not, do you at least understand why people do?
*crawls through eco's iso* *lays 4 blue eggs and 2 red ones*
*shrugs with 3 shoulders*
*thinks youve been avoiding reading him just because he is a spider*
*thought we were hydra bros*
*shakes fist*
Tom. This is me being as polite as I possibly can. You are literally making yourself harder to understand. I don't know what you mean by the bolded, and my energy in this game is finite, and I'm not going to spend any thinking about it.
The only towngame on DLP that I've lost, was when fontisian tricked me in Final 5. She posted in limericks or haiku or something and I thought she was too carefree to be mafia, and after the game, Voxx was like, "look, you have to see that it's an important situation, and it's vital to be understood. Town wants to be understood."
My gut says that as scum here, you'd want to be having a better game, you'd want to be impressing this group of players. Since you're not, my gut says you're just town who doesn't quite know what to do. However, my head also says that what you're doing is emphatically not a town mindset, and playing the WIFOM game of "would you do this as scum" is futile since the answer is obviously, obviously yes, and just kill you.
Like. I'm now in a situation where I think gun to my head you're town, and I can't convince myself that killing you ASAP and just getting the inevitable out of the way isn't the right thing to do.
I'd like to not be in this situation, could you help me out, please?
So... I guess to both Iso and tom, why do you think Cyan isn't just unengaged / disinterested town? I mean I know why I do - same reason as Vaimes. But why are you guys poninting this out? Where are you going with it, if anywhere?
Dunno if you'd try to spew yourself via tl;drs, since according to Jan, you're super lazy as scum.
This is, through and through, a scum post. Blows off a post that another person put a ton of effort into by personally belittling them, and then tries to soften the blow by saying said person is probably town.
@Newcomb: I'm disappointed that you ran out of steam right as I finally posted something of substance. I was really curious what you would say about it.
I feel like I'm on shaky ground here commenting on something about me, since I'm biased, but man, I just do not see how you can read the early me/Vaimes interaction and come away thinking that's w/w. Like. There's scum!theater and then there's... yeah I don't even know how to describe what that interaction would have to be if it was w/w. How do you get there in your head, if that's a genuine thought? Really not sure.
I was reading the thread and saw a back and forth between you and Vaimes. Your posts didn't look great, so it seemed like you could be scum. And Vaimes posts looked completely predatory. So my initial judgement was that you might both be scum, and Vaimes was very likely to be so.
Also, on a related(ish) note, I wasn't trying to say that Seppel is mafia. I have no idea of Seppel's alignment. I didn't like his initial vote on Eco and still don't, regardless of the fact that I now think Eco is scum. I gave up awhile ago on trying to get early Seppel reads.
@Cyan re: second bolded - what was I supposed to notice about it?
Vaimes is just brazenly lying here, to try and not actually have to address me. There is virtually no chance that he actually thought that I would vote him, based on his interactions with you, a person I have never seen before. Especially when I hadn't even posted yet.
And you'll note that, in the end, he STILL hasn't addressed anything I've said. He just OMGUS voted me, but of course waited until it looks like Eco isn't going to get lynched anymore, citing some other complete nonsense.
Yeah it's really not a scumpost. Vaimes and I are tight. I've played with him more than anyone, I think. That "we get it, you're a tryhard" is him teasing me, it's not malicious at all.
Also, on a related(ish) note, I wasn't trying to say that Seppel is mafia. I have no idea of Seppel's alignment. I didn't like his initial vote on Eco and still don't, regardless of the fact that I now think Eco is scum. I gave up awhile ago on trying to get early Seppel reads.
Hum. But you think Seppel's town, right, by PoE? Since you think it's Iso/Vaimes/Eco. Why do you still not like the vote? I mean, in your world, GOAT-Seppel caught Eco on like the first post of the game.
Vaimes is just brazenly lying here, to try and not actually have to address me. There is virtually no chance that he actually thought that I would vote him, based on his interactions with you, a person I have never seen before. Especially when I hadn't even posted yet.
And you'll note that, in the end, he STILL hasn't addressed anything I've said. He just OMGUS voted me, but of course waited until it looks like Eco isn't going to get lynched anymore, citing some other complete nonsense.
Wellll... I mean, you have to take his word for it, but I don't see how you can confidently say he's lying. It's at least plausible that he thought that. And we've talked pretty extensively about my philosophy of not engaging directly with people about your alignment or theirs.
Cyan, I'm curious. Exactly what kind of flavor and texture does complete and total bull***** have?
I don't recall you asking me anything specific. Just making sweeping gestures at my posts and declaring me scum. You're someone else I don't think direct engagement on the topic of me will ever lead to anything productive.
Yeah, that. Like, if you and Vaimes get into it, I don't think that will make Vaimes be able to read you any easier.
Newcomb's persuaded me that I'm pursuing Vox for things that are meta for him.
I'm going to give Eco some more time to hang himself.
Can we all agree that Iso needs to die?
Vote Iso
So the super paranoid part of my brain read this exactly as: "scum! Az reads the long post about how I think he and Voxx are bussing / distancing from each other, decides to take the life preserver I'm throwing him to townread a buddy off my analysis."
Ehhhh. That feels like a stretch. For one thing I kind of think Az would be a bit more, hm, proactive? If he were going to do that and the world was exactly scum!Az scum!Voxx. But maybe? Ok, if Az is scum and Voxx is town, then... hm, I guess I'd expect Az to fight me harder on it? Wine it up? Try to make me doubt myself? He might have thought it was just a losing battle - I'm getting pretty universally townread and I did go into a fair bit of detail on how I thought he was wrong on Voxx. But. I did spend a lot of time talking about the WAY he was wrong possibly pointing to a w/w interaction, and if I were scum!Azrael there I'd want to do.... /something/ about it. If I was right, try to shake me off. Or if I was /wrong/, try to reinforce that notion since me going after Voxx if Az ever flipped would be A+ consolation. So him just giving in like this feels... well. Not really strongly like one or the other.
Might have to think about this one some more. The Az/Voxx thing is something I'd actually like some feedback on in general; it felt like I had something for a while, but now I'm kind of doubting myself.
Like...as soon as I called the Eco/GJ/Cyan team, GJ and Cyan very abruptly changed what they were doing in a very self-conscious way. You have to be ******* blind not to see that.
I mean. If you're you, in your shoes, this could be something you see easily, because you're in tune with what your posts specifically do or don't do to the tenor of the thread. As not-you, "how Iso's posts change people's interactions" is just... not going to be on my radar, at all. I'm not saying this quite right I think. It's like - I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to be able to see out of your eyes in this way.
Not to say you're wrong, but if you're right, you're right in a way that's unique to your PoV and not something that anyone else is just going to grasp intuitively.
Unaligned pairs, hard (would consider clearing one if the other flips scum):
Unaligned pairs, soft (+town if other flips scum, not clearing):
Sir Chris / Azrael
Vaimes / Malslot
GJ / Azrael
Seppel / Cyan
Iso / GJ
Iso / Eco
Iso / Azrael
Okay, reads.
I think Vaimes is just Town. It's a read that has to be maintained, and if I'm dead and Vaimes is alive on D3, his scumtell is that his energy noticeably drops off, so watch for that, but I really just think he's town here. Zero interst in lynching toDay, would actively fight a Vaimes lynch. Going to feel pretty stupid if I'm wrong, but sticking to my guns here.
Iso is... I still don't have a strong feeling here. I've agreed with some of his points. He feels less invested and less interested in pushing his worldview than I saw in the ZDS game. It really just feels like he's got extra information. Despite that my gut leans townish. I tend to think that in this playerlist he'd have... I dunno, done something more interesting? as mafia I mean.
GJ is a scumlean. He's had multiple posts that feel fake, or off, or limp. He kind of fits an "active lurking" scum archtype, where he's around, he's present, but he doesn't seem to be pushing the game in any particular direction, and off the top of my head I can't remember anything he feels strongly about. In a game with a very solid playerlist, this kind of negative space analysis I think is probably more powerful; I wouldn't expect anyone in this game to be easily caught, so it's more about what someone's NOT doing. I wouldn't say this is a slam-dunk lynch, but I'm in favor of a GJ wagon.
tom I'm made my feelings clear on. He's always, always a D3 PoE lynch if the trend line continues. The only reason I don't want to lynch him today is that it's essentially a lurker lynch, and we can do better. That, and my gut says he'd be pulling out all the stops as mafia here simply because he'd want to be impressive. But that's a piss-poor reason to townread someone.
Voxx, man. He feels really town. As expected. I thiiiink if Voxx were scum here he'd be in bus mode, and the only person he could really be bussing would be Azrael. I'm content to just leave Voxx alone toDay. The thing is, you read Voxx town via engagement, drive to solve, being a force, all that *****, and he's just... not that. I mean, sure, RL, Hearthstone, whatever. But I'm not going to just trust the gut and the tea leaves. If Voxx is town and wants to clear himself, he's capable of making himself Just That Town, and I don't think I can personally clear him until / unless he does.
Chris I don't really have a read on. He could fit into a lot of potential scumteams. There hasn't been much drive to figure HIM out from other players - which, as Vaimes pointed out, is kind of an indicator that he's spewed town, in a sense. But that's a fragile peg to hang a read on. I'd say gun to my head, town, but that's not something I'd want to gamble on right now.
Eco... The first 5 or so posts felt so wrong and bad and icky. The lack of counterwagon and how long his wagon was there points to town. The discussion of who he'd Vig if he had a must-use Dayvig I thought was really town and I want to see if anyone thought it was for the same reason I did. I buy Chris's logic that the hope, the resistance to claiming, is town, and add that it doesn't really fit the type of scum who'd make those tonally bad, awkward, overly careful first RVS posts. Not lynching Eco is definitely a risk, because with how much flack he's getting, he's going to be a distraction the rest of the game, but... yeah, town, I thiiiink?
Kinda want to just bite the bullet and kill him because his scumfilp clears like - a ton of people. Azrael, Seppel, Iso would all be pretty much clear in an Eco scum world, I think, and that sounds pretty amazing... I just don't think Eco's going to flip scum, gun to my head.
Azrael could be mafia. I agree with Voxx that he doesn't have nearly the same presence or drive that he did in the Championship series. I also think that game is not this game; it was incredibly fast-paced, people were posting a ton, and it was easier to be a force and driver when the overall quality of the game was, uh. Well, not as good as this game, let's just say that. Azrael seems to be playing his cards close to the chest a bit; he's repping a lot of confidence in his reads. Actually I think I'm just null here. Everything with Azrael feels like guessing at this point. I was able to townclear him in the Champs game because of a very specific set of circumstances that's unlikely to repeat, so, meh. The one thing he's got going for him is that he's created a ton of unalignments, from my PoV. I'm nearly certain he can't be scum with Vaimes or Seppel, and he's pretty unlikely to be scum with Chris, Iso, GJ, or Eco. Which might be like - too restrictive to be mafia? Like, Azrael/Voxx/Cyan team, maybe? Malslot could go there too, sure. But yeah. Azrael might clear himself off someone's else scumflip, is what I'm thinking. If he's town. Don't really want to lynch toDay, at any rate.
Cyan seems like a decent chance to flip scum here. As I said above, the treatment of the Eco wagon + the Eco scumread doesn't seem to really jive in my head when I think about making those posts as town.
Malslot is completely null.
Seppel's a town-ish lean; I agree with what Voxx said about his early game. That said, he's dropped off quite a bit. I'm not exactly sure what to do with him at this point, but I don't really feel like he could be scum enough to want to wagon him.
Readslist:
Newcomb
Vaimes
Voxx
Chris
Iso
Eco
Seppel
Malslot
Azrael
tom
Cyan
GJ
Is what I'm feeling. And man, writing that out, aside from Vaimes, my townreads still feel just light as ****. Hard game is hard, I guess.
Hardly hostile. I'm just incredulous that you managed to talk yourself out of the glaringly obvious scum sitting in front of you. Like, if you think lynching me will be informative, by all means, you're welcome to try - but I expect full sheeping in the event that I somehow get lynched toDay.
Like...as soon as I called the Eco/GJ/Cyan team, GJ and Cyan very abruptly changed what they were doing in a very self-conscious way. You have to be ******* blind not to see that.
You mean the part where I was voting Vaimes, and..still am? And I had just started posting, the idea that I've dramatically changed what I'm doing is completely unfounded.
Wait, did you post before then or am I thinking of another on-going game that we're both in?
If I'm not mixing my games up, then there was definitely an abrupt tonal shift from your intro to your first real post in a very self-conscious-distancing-yourself-from-the-Eco-wagon kind of way. If I'm just imagining that you posted before then, then I can concede that point as it relates to you (but it doesn't change the fact that it definitely applies to GJ in this situation).
-
@Newcomb: I've noticed a few things that other people probably haven't which I'm sitting on for [pro-town reasons], so that might be why you think I seem to have a better grasp on the gamestate than anyone else, along with gameflow analysis. As for the PoV thing, I disagree completely - you can very distinctly feel the abrupt mindset shift in at least GJ and Eco's posts as the flow of the game changes, specifically GJ's after I made my scum team call. Eco became a lot more confident when his initial panic at getting run up subsided when he realized that people were starting to doubt his wagon (which I admit is partially my fault because I've been complacent in my relaxed pace of the game and didn't push it as aggressively as I could have). The fact that counterwagons started to form in the lull means that people need to be looking at who started them/who pushed them when the momentum to do so was ripe, and who the wagons are actually on. The way I play Mafia, I'm very much in tune with the lifeblood of the game. I can sense when things are going to shift, and where they're going to shift to. Gameflow analysis is probably one of the most effective scumhunting tools I've encountered, and if you utilize it here, you'll see exactly why GJ and Cyan are scum with Eco on top of the myriad of other things I've already pointed out. My cases are airtight - I'm just next-leveling so hard that the old fogies like Az aren't in tune with what I'm doing, which is why I'm not getting /barned to hell and back. I realize that not everyone might see it this way and that I'm not doing myself any favors by touting this, but that's the scenario we're in, here, and there's no sense in pretending otherwise.
Also, after that wall of text, I'm feeling a bit lazy - is there anything specifically that you want me to address from your previous longpost?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
(Note: Gameflow analysis is also a deadly weapon in the hands of the scum, because then you can calculatingly cause horrendous damage to the town like how scumAz flipped the gamestate in Crosstown #3 from a dire situation to the scum into a perfect win for them; I don't think Az knew that he was striking at the exact moment he needed to in that game, but it absolutely was what he needed to do to survive the Day 1 lynch attempt.)
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Speaking of, Tom do you think I'm scum? If not, do you at least understand why people do?
*crawls through eco's iso* *lays 4 blue eggs and 2 red ones*
*shrugs with 3 shoulders*
*thinks youve been avoiding reading him just because he is a spider*
*thought we were hydra bros*
*shakes fist*
Tom. This is me being as polite as I possibly can. You are literally making yourself harder to understand. I don't know what you mean by the bolded, and my energy in this game is finite, and I'm not going to spend any thinking about it.
*thinks you should ask eco, who totally knows what that means and is the one i was talking to*
Yeah, I think I just accidentally caught Iso for 1/2 wrong reasons, and 1/2 right reasons. The wrong ones being mostly related to Eco, hence his laughing at people for theorizing he's bad scum, comment.
Even though you're still bad scum, Iso.
I'm laughing at people for theorizing I'm bad scum because that's the only way the case on me makes sense.
(Spoilers: The case on me doesn't make sense, and not just because I'm town.)
I must've missed it. Whats the case on you and who made it?
Yeah, I think I just accidentally caught Iso for 1/2 wrong reasons, and 1/2 right reasons. The wrong ones being mostly related to Eco, hence his laughing at people for theorizing he's bad scum, comment.
Even though you're still bad scum, Iso.
I'm laughing at people for theorizing I'm bad scum because that's the only way the case on me makes sense.
(Spoilers: The case on me doesn't make sense, and not just because I'm town.)
I must've missed it. Whats the case on you and who made it?
Some combination of Az/Eco/GJ/Cyan and mostly for my vote on Eco. I forget exactly who. Maybe like one other player.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
*thinks seppel, like myself, is very good at interactions with buddies*
*notices three unalignments*
*feels you might be falling victim to some amount of hubris*
*waggles mandibles*
*thinks seppel, like myself, is very good at interactions with buddies*
*notices three unalignments*
*feels you might be falling victim to some amount of hubris*
*waggles mandibles*
Idk, I feel like everyone else has a *****load of lock reads one way or the other, and I'm just sitting here going "all I know is my gut says: maybe." So I don't really feel like I'm being arrogant at all, but sure. Can you look at those unalignments and show me where I might be wrong?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
This is probably true in general and very, very true for me specifically. We've talked mafia so much over the last year and we approach the game in such a similar way, that on any given D1 I believe it would be almost impossible for me to read your ISO by itself and think you were strongly mafia.
If you are scum here, on D1, before you've had the chance to drop off Towny Energy, then interactions with others - how your buddies talk about you - is absolutely the way to do it. Like that offsite game where you were buddies with Jan - if someone was going to bury you D1, it was off how he was talking about you.
It feels kind of slimy trying to get an alignment read on him off of it though, so I guess I'll just kind of blank slate the slot.
+1
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
This is, through and through, a scum post. Blows off a post that another person put a ton of effort into by personally belittling them, and then tries to soften the blow by saying said person is probably town.
@Newcomb: I'm disappointed that you ran out of steam right as I finally posted something of substance. I was really curious what you would say about it.
I was reading the thread and saw a back and forth between you and Vaimes. Your posts didn't look great, so it seemed like you could be scum. And Vaimes posts looked completely predatory. So my initial judgement was that you might both be scum, and Vaimes was very likely to be so.
Also, on a related(ish) note, I wasn't trying to say that Seppel is mafia. I have no idea of Seppel's alignment. I didn't like his initial vote on Eco and still don't, regardless of the fact that I now think Eco is scum. I gave up awhile ago on trying to get early Seppel reads.
Vaimes is just brazenly lying here, to try and not actually have to address me. There is virtually no chance that he actually thought that I would vote him, based on his interactions with you, a person I have never seen before. Especially when I hadn't even posted yet.
And you'll note that, in the end, he STILL hasn't addressed anything I've said. He just OMGUS voted me, but of course waited until it looks like Eco isn't going to get lynched anymore, citing some other complete nonsense.
I don't recall you asking me anything specific. Just making sweeping gestures at my posts and declaring me scum. You're someone else I don't think direct engagement on the topic of me will ever lead to anything productive.
If Newcomb feels like I brushed him off, he can say so himself. But I think he and I are friends enough that he knows what I meant contextually.
The only reason you didn't kill me in Stargate was because of my interactions with dead scum.
I forgot about you, and then I read a post by Iso that said something like "the lack of counterwagon or pushback makes the Cyan slot more likely scum."
So I started thinking: who would Cyan vote in his first post? I know I can be spammy and fluffy and I don't hard-push people and i sheep a lot. So probably me.
Just in case this particular point is actually important to you.
I'm going to give Eco some more time to hang himself.
Can we all agree that Iso needs to die?
Vote Iso
But that's probably just the butthurt talking.
Even though you're still bad scum, Iso.
I'm contemplating townreading Az for a very stupid reason.
8. Azrael - town
9. Newcomb - hard-town.
12. Seppel - TOWN.
2. Gentleman Johnny - Townish.
6. Sir Chris -null
10. Cyan -meh
11. mallorean_thug?
4. Vaimes - reexamine with possibility of Eco not scum.
5. Voxxicus- reexamine with possibility of Eco not scum.
3. tomsloger - nefarious sneaky spider camouflage. Makes the most sense as a scum defensive tactic.
7. Ecophagy - scum?
1. Iso scum!
Hey, at least if it's stupid, it'll still be correct.
I'm not gonna say it tho. Cyan can't call it scummy if I don't post it.
I don't have strong feelings on Iso.
Could be scum?
He's not someone I can read with high degree of confidence on D1 so I usually just kind of let him do his thing while I do my thing (poking people I find it a priority to try and get a read on, while letting information accumulate via other people doing things).
Talk to me about Iso being scum, or point me to where you've talked about it.
A re-read of you is still on the menu because immediately doing the thing I just talked about expecting you to do as town, but you weren't, has me squinty-eyed.
Yep, yu're adorable.
*squishes*
Town me never stops doing that constantly, so that seems pretty NAI.
After food. And work I've put off all day.
I'm laughing at people for theorizing I'm bad scum because that's the only way the case on me makes sense.
(Spoilers: The case on me doesn't make sense, and not just because I'm town.)
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Hostility. Always a good choice.
You mean the part where I was voting Vaimes, and..still am? And I had just started posting, the idea that I've dramatically changed what I'm doing is completely unfounded.
So I'm just preemptively cursing this goddamn interface because this big post by Cyan pulls a bunch of quotes from Vaimes and Iso, and there's really just no way to break it up without manually going in every time and snipping it. FantasyStrike used to have this feature where you could highlight text in a post, and a little box would pop up and it would pull just that text as a quote for you.
I miss that feature a lot.
Anyway. So yeah I think that the glossing over me/Vaimes is a reasonable point; I kinda saw that too re: Iso. The mindset where you're very confident in two scum, and sorting the game trying to find the third, versus so waffly/unengaged that you just clear two people because you "liked their big posts" doesn't feel quite real.
That being said, I could certainly imagine this from town here. Everyone has a way to handle D1 when you have the entire playerlist and you're trying to narrow things down. I'm not crazy about the way Iso is building this particular Jenga tower, but I don't read it and think "scum!", I guess is what I'm saying.
This is about Vaimes hopping on after Seppel. And idk, it kinda does? This is like post 15 of the game, and I pretty much buy that from Vaimes specifically.
Yeah, disagree with this too. Maybe you have to have some meta with us, but this is a completely null thing for Vaimes to poke me about. We play with Mal a lot, and in any given game you can count on Mal to ***** about people voting approximately 10002828382 times. "Voting is pro-town" is practically a permanent groove in Vaimes's brain.
Yeah, true, but like - if you buy that his initial hop onto the wagon was more about townreading Seppel and wanting to see what Eco did / where it went, then it's not like you'd expect him to be particularly committed to it.
Implying that he's scum WITH Eco, right? Because the only way I can see scum!Vaimes wanting to preserve his spot on that wagon is if Eco is his buddy. Which... I guess is /possible/? Idk, gun to my head both Eco and Vaimes are town here, so.
My meta impression of Vaimes is that he's not usually going to go after people hard, early, or even at all sometimes. The only thing I really didn't like from him was his treatment of me early, and I think that's far outweighed by the little tidbits Voxx and I have picked out that I really just don't think he'd think to think of, as scum. If I'm wrong, that'll be unfortunate, but I'm just not going there D1 when I have this strong of a townread on him.
I feel like tacking on the bolded part here is, hm. Theatrical? Like, saying Iso is painting you as scum kind of already implies what he has to gain. There's no mystery.
I can't match your experience with Iso, but I will say that I didn't have a problem with that particular part of that post. My impression of the early game matched that exactly - Seppel and Azreal felt right, Eco felt wrong. It's a mix of gut and tone and not something you can really go on and on about, but I did feel that, so it doesn't raise any eyebrows for Iso to go there.
And yeah, this. Cyan blasts Vaimes for voting Eco without any reason, and Iso for voting Eco without any reason, and in his first post called the whole Eco wagon "much ado about nothing" or something like that, and is now fully confident the team is Eco/Iso/Vaimes. I don't really see a genuine mindset progression there.
But the premise linking Iso and Vaimes to Eco deals with how they hopped on Eco without any substantial reasons. You're presupposing that both his partners treated him in the exact same way. Why couldn't his partner be Chris, who's now defending him - "trying to salvage his team," or Voxx, who cast shade at Eco but didn't vote him? Or me, I guess, for the same thing? Like - you start with the premise that you don't like Iso and Vaimes's posts for how they treat Eco and also kinda for their internal logic, then decide it makes sense that Eco's being bussed by them, but then don't work it the other way and check your assumptions?
Ehh. Cyan does kinda feel like scum here just for a lack of, I guess, solving? depth? Thing is, from what I remember of Cyan from Stargate, it's pretty indicative of his towngame to do the whole "pick a narrative, push it forever" thing. With a certain amount of "bounce" where he'll abruptly move on. Like the me/Vaimes thing he's evolved on to "just Vaimes"? I... don't reeeeeally townread Cyan here, but I wouldn't be shocked if he flipped town.
Man I think I want to just snap-vote GJ if Cyan is town for this.
Bluh. Pretty limp.
Another GJ post that feels slightly fake/off.
Tend to agree with this, I think? Especially since if Eco's scum here then he's the epitome of "careful/reasonable" scum archetype. Being stubborn / holding out on claiming when the site has such a rigid convention of "you always claim at L-2" does not strike me as fitting into that archetype.
Tom. This is me being as polite as I possibly can. You are literally making yourself harder to understand. I don't know what you mean by the bolded, and my energy in this game is finite, and I'm not going to spend any thinking about it.
The only towngame on DLP that I've lost, was when fontisian tricked me in Final 5. She posted in limericks or haiku or something and I thought she was too carefree to be mafia, and after the game, Voxx was like, "look, you have to see that it's an important situation, and it's vital to be understood. Town wants to be understood."
My gut says that as scum here, you'd want to be having a better game, you'd want to be impressing this group of players. Since you're not, my gut says you're just town who doesn't quite know what to do. However, my head also says that what you're doing is emphatically not a town mindset, and playing the WIFOM game of "would you do this as scum" is futile since the answer is obviously, obviously yes, and just kill you.
Like. I'm now in a situation where I think gun to my head you're town, and I can't convince myself that killing you ASAP and just getting the inevitable out of the way isn't the right thing to do.
I'd like to not be in this situation, could you help me out, please?
I'd probably move Eco/Azrael up to hard unaligned for that exchange?
Yeah.
I'm just preemptively anticipating what Cyan is going to say about this, let's see if I'm right.
So... I guess to both Iso and tom, why do you think Cyan isn't just unengaged / disinterested town? I mean I know why I do - same reason as Vaimes. But why are you guys poninting this out? Where are you going with it, if anywhere?
Yeah it's really not a scumpost. Vaimes and I are tight. I've played with him more than anyone, I think. That "we get it, you're a tryhard" is him teasing me, it's not malicious at all.
Hum. But you think Seppel's town, right, by PoE? Since you think it's Iso/Vaimes/Eco. Why do you still not like the vote? I mean, in your world, GOAT-Seppel caught Eco on like the first post of the game.
Wellll... I mean, you have to take his word for it, but I don't see how you can confidently say he's lying. It's at least plausible that he thought that. And we've talked pretty extensively about my philosophy of not engaging directly with people about your alignment or theirs.
Yeah, that. Like, if you and Vaimes get into it, I don't think that will make Vaimes be able to read you any easier.
So the super paranoid part of my brain read this exactly as: "scum! Az reads the long post about how I think he and Voxx are bussing / distancing from each other, decides to take the life preserver I'm throwing him to townread a buddy off my analysis."
Ehhhh. That feels like a stretch. For one thing I kind of think Az would be a bit more, hm, proactive? If he were going to do that and the world was exactly scum!Az scum!Voxx. But maybe? Ok, if Az is scum and Voxx is town, then... hm, I guess I'd expect Az to fight me harder on it? Wine it up? Try to make me doubt myself? He might have thought it was just a losing battle - I'm getting pretty universally townread and I did go into a fair bit of detail on how I thought he was wrong on Voxx. But. I did spend a lot of time talking about the WAY he was wrong possibly pointing to a w/w interaction, and if I were scum!Azrael there I'd want to do.... /something/ about it. If I was right, try to shake me off. Or if I was /wrong/, try to reinforce that notion since me going after Voxx if Az ever flipped would be A+ consolation. So him just giving in like this feels... well. Not really strongly like one or the other.
Might have to think about this one some more. The Az/Voxx thing is something I'd actually like some feedback on in general; it felt like I had something for a while, but now I'm kind of doubting myself.
Flagged for followup; Vaimes, please share this at some point.
I mean. If you're you, in your shoes, this could be something you see easily, because you're in tune with what your posts specifically do or don't do to the tenor of the thread. As not-you, "how Iso's posts change people's interactions" is just... not going to be on my radar, at all. I'm not saying this quite right I think. It's like - I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to be able to see out of your eyes in this way.
Not to say you're wrong, but if you're right, you're right in a way that's unique to your PoV and not something that anyone else is just going to grasp intuitively.
Unaligned pairs, hard (would consider clearing one if the other flips scum):
Eco / Seppel
Eco / Cyan
Vaimes / GJ
Vaimes / Azrael
Voxxicus / tom
Voxxicus / Vaimes
Seppel / Azrael
Eco / Azrael
Unaligned pairs, soft (+town if other flips scum, not clearing):
Sir Chris / Azrael
Vaimes / Malslot
GJ / Azrael
Seppel / Cyan
Iso / GJ
Iso / Eco
Iso / Azrael
Okay, reads.
I think Vaimes is just Town. It's a read that has to be maintained, and if I'm dead and Vaimes is alive on D3, his scumtell is that his energy noticeably drops off, so watch for that, but I really just think he's town here. Zero interst in lynching toDay, would actively fight a Vaimes lynch. Going to feel pretty stupid if I'm wrong, but sticking to my guns here.
Iso is... I still don't have a strong feeling here. I've agreed with some of his points. He feels less invested and less interested in pushing his worldview than I saw in the ZDS game. It really just feels like he's got extra information. Despite that my gut leans townish. I tend to think that in this playerlist he'd have... I dunno, done something more interesting? as mafia I mean.
GJ is a scumlean. He's had multiple posts that feel fake, or off, or limp. He kind of fits an "active lurking" scum archtype, where he's around, he's present, but he doesn't seem to be pushing the game in any particular direction, and off the top of my head I can't remember anything he feels strongly about. In a game with a very solid playerlist, this kind of negative space analysis I think is probably more powerful; I wouldn't expect anyone in this game to be easily caught, so it's more about what someone's NOT doing. I wouldn't say this is a slam-dunk lynch, but I'm in favor of a GJ wagon.
tom I'm made my feelings clear on. He's always, always a D3 PoE lynch if the trend line continues. The only reason I don't want to lynch him today is that it's essentially a lurker lynch, and we can do better. That, and my gut says he'd be pulling out all the stops as mafia here simply because he'd want to be impressive. But that's a piss-poor reason to townread someone.
Voxx, man. He feels really town. As expected. I thiiiink if Voxx were scum here he'd be in bus mode, and the only person he could really be bussing would be Azrael. I'm content to just leave Voxx alone toDay. The thing is, you read Voxx town via engagement, drive to solve, being a force, all that *****, and he's just... not that. I mean, sure, RL, Hearthstone, whatever. But I'm not going to just trust the gut and the tea leaves. If Voxx is town and wants to clear himself, he's capable of making himself Just That Town, and I don't think I can personally clear him until / unless he does.
Chris I don't really have a read on. He could fit into a lot of potential scumteams. There hasn't been much drive to figure HIM out from other players - which, as Vaimes pointed out, is kind of an indicator that he's spewed town, in a sense. But that's a fragile peg to hang a read on. I'd say gun to my head, town, but that's not something I'd want to gamble on right now.
Eco... The first 5 or so posts felt so wrong and bad and icky. The lack of counterwagon and how long his wagon was there points to town. The discussion of who he'd Vig if he had a must-use Dayvig I thought was really town and I want to see if anyone thought it was for the same reason I did. I buy Chris's logic that the hope, the resistance to claiming, is town, and add that it doesn't really fit the type of scum who'd make those tonally bad, awkward, overly careful first RVS posts. Not lynching Eco is definitely a risk, because with how much flack he's getting, he's going to be a distraction the rest of the game, but... yeah, town, I thiiiink?
Kinda want to just bite the bullet and kill him because his scumfilp clears like - a ton of people. Azrael, Seppel, Iso would all be pretty much clear in an Eco scum world, I think, and that sounds pretty amazing... I just don't think Eco's going to flip scum, gun to my head.
Azrael could be mafia. I agree with Voxx that he doesn't have nearly the same presence or drive that he did in the Championship series. I also think that game is not this game; it was incredibly fast-paced, people were posting a ton, and it was easier to be a force and driver when the overall quality of the game was, uh. Well, not as good as this game, let's just say that. Azrael seems to be playing his cards close to the chest a bit; he's repping a lot of confidence in his reads. Actually I think I'm just null here. Everything with Azrael feels like guessing at this point. I was able to townclear him in the Champs game because of a very specific set of circumstances that's unlikely to repeat, so, meh. The one thing he's got going for him is that he's created a ton of unalignments, from my PoV. I'm nearly certain he can't be scum with Vaimes or Seppel, and he's pretty unlikely to be scum with Chris, Iso, GJ, or Eco. Which might be like - too restrictive to be mafia? Like, Azrael/Voxx/Cyan team, maybe? Malslot could go there too, sure. But yeah. Azrael might clear himself off someone's else scumflip, is what I'm thinking. If he's town. Don't really want to lynch toDay, at any rate.
Cyan seems like a decent chance to flip scum here. As I said above, the treatment of the Eco wagon + the Eco scumread doesn't seem to really jive in my head when I think about making those posts as town.
Malslot is completely null.
Seppel's a town-ish lean; I agree with what Voxx said about his early game. That said, he's dropped off quite a bit. I'm not exactly sure what to do with him at this point, but I don't really feel like he could be scum enough to want to wagon him.
Readslist:
Newcomb
Vaimes
Voxx
Chris
Iso
Eco
Seppel
Malslot
Azrael
tom
Cyan
GJ
Is what I'm feeling. And man, writing that out, aside from Vaimes, my townreads still feel just light as ****. Hard game is hard, I guess.
Vote: Gentleman Johnny
Hardly hostile. I'm just incredulous that you managed to talk yourself out of the glaringly obvious scum sitting in front of you. Like, if you think lynching me will be informative, by all means, you're welcome to try - but I expect full sheeping in the event that I somehow get lynched toDay.
Wait, did you post before then or am I thinking of another on-going game that we're both in?
If I'm not mixing my games up, then there was definitely an abrupt tonal shift from your intro to your first real post in a very self-conscious-distancing-yourself-from-the-Eco-wagon kind of way. If I'm just imagining that you posted before then, then I can concede that point as it relates to you (but it doesn't change the fact that it definitely applies to GJ in this situation).
-
@Newcomb: I've noticed a few things that other people probably haven't which I'm sitting on for [pro-town reasons], so that might be why you think I seem to have a better grasp on the gamestate than anyone else, along with gameflow analysis. As for the PoV thing, I disagree completely - you can very distinctly feel the abrupt mindset shift in at least GJ and Eco's posts as the flow of the game changes, specifically GJ's after I made my scum team call. Eco became a lot more confident when his initial panic at getting run up subsided when he realized that people were starting to doubt his wagon (which I admit is partially my fault because I've been complacent in my relaxed pace of the game and didn't push it as aggressively as I could have). The fact that counterwagons started to form in the lull means that people need to be looking at who started them/who pushed them when the momentum to do so was ripe, and who the wagons are actually on. The way I play Mafia, I'm very much in tune with the lifeblood of the game. I can sense when things are going to shift, and where they're going to shift to. Gameflow analysis is probably one of the most effective scumhunting tools I've encountered, and if you utilize it here, you'll see exactly why GJ and Cyan are scum with Eco on top of the myriad of other things I've already pointed out. My cases are airtight - I'm just next-leveling so hard that the old fogies like Az aren't in tune with what I'm doing, which is why I'm not getting /barned to hell and back. I realize that not everyone might see it this way and that I'm not doing myself any favors by touting this, but that's the scenario we're in, here, and there's no sense in pretending otherwise.
Also, after that wall of text, I'm feeling a bit lazy - is there anything specifically that you want me to address from your previous longpost?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
*does he think it was for my ability to be town and solve games?* *thinks you should ask eco, who totally knows what that means and is the one i was talking to*
Some combination of Az/Eco/GJ/Cyan and mostly for my vote on Eco. I forget exactly who. Maybe like one other player.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
*pauses*
*thinks about seppel*
Use your words, tom. What about Seppel? I'm not playing 20 questions with you.
*notices three unalignments*
*feels you might be falling victim to some amount of hubris*
*waggles mandibles*
Idk, I feel like everyone else has a *****load of lock reads one way or the other, and I'm just sitting here going "all I know is my gut says: maybe." So I don't really feel like I'm being arrogant at all, but sure. Can you look at those unalignments and show me where I might be wrong?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Noted; anything else?
In the world where you're a bit off on your team, let's say you only are 1 for 3, do you see Azrael and Voxxicus as potential teammates?
*starts to construct a web*
*doesnt know where to put seppel on it*
*this (might) make sense to you later*
*will get back to you on this*
No, Az can't be scum. Trust me on this one.
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@tom: I think I see what you're getting at with Seppel but don't you think that's an indicator that he's more likely town than not?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
*puts one up*
*or, like, a leg in the shape of a thumb or some ****** *has only a single eye left on newcomb*
No, I didn't. Maybe you're thinking of Az's game.
But like, you could have just looked this up. I have like 5 posts. Pretty sure you're just backpedaling here.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player