2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Tell me your input on my analysis of the momentum of your wagon with regards to Cyan's role in this, specifically. I also couldn't help but notice that you and Cyan haven't interacted yet all game, and we're almost 200 posts in. You both have only passively mentioned each other, at best. What gives? Aren't you interested in figuring out his alignment?
Man, this is such a disingenuous set of questions. Like your wagon analysis just assumes I'm going to flip scum, so how can I say anything other than your base premise is false, please try again? I already spoke about Cyan in relation to my wagon in #154 in that I think he's in a group of players who have commented on my wagon and are not actively for it, but aren't doing anything to stop it either. Of that group I think Voxx is much the most likely to be scum which is why I've started there. And it's pretty obvious why I've not interacted with Cyan: he's made literally two posts and neither of them had anything directed at me, while I've clearly been focussing on trying to analyse my wagon and people who, you know, have content. Of course figuring out his alignment interests me, just not as much as other people's do: I don't have your brazen levels of confidence to bust a gut trying to solve the entire game on Day 1.
These questions are so...leading. For real, are you scum or are you just blinded from chasing the high you got off ZDS' Normal?
I'm pretty sure I convinced Seppel of the efficacy of this tactic by doing it to him relentlessly in one of the prior invitational games, as scum. So far, no complaints about keeping it as part of my arsenal of tools.
If I'm reading this right, you're happy to push me off a cliff because you did it to Seppel once and it worked? Seriously? You think that Seppel and I have similar playstyles in any way?
If I'm reading this right, you're happy to push me off a cliff because you did it to Seppel once and it worked? Seriously? You think that Seppel and I have similar playstyles in any way?
At the risk of doing what I advised Chris never to do, it's worked somewhat more reliably than just once.
Granted, one of the very reasons I'm not pushing for your immediate death is I'm still trying to assess just how likely it is that it's reliable, this time.
If I'm reading this right, you're happy to push me off a cliff because you did it to Seppel once and it worked? Seriously? You think that Seppel and I have similar playstyles in any way?
At the risk of doing what I advised Chris never to do, it's worked somewhat more reliably than just once.
Granted, one of the very reasons I'm not pushing for your immediate death is I'm still trying to assess just how likely it is that it's reliable, this time.
OK, let's say you see sense and decide to not kill me today. Who do you want to kill instead? What do you think about Voxx? Who do you think the scum on my wagon is(/are)?
If you are town I have my doubts any scum is stupid enough to join it haphazardly.
ITT I pretend to be my buddy Azrael.
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2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
What a garbage response, Eco. Cyan's lack of activity as it pertains to the speed of your wagon doesn't have to ride on the basis that you're scum - it just happens to fit that scenario perfectly.
Instead of telling me I'm too full of myself to consider the state of the game, how about you actually answer the question?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
If you are town I have my doubts any scum is stupid enough to join it haphazardly.
ITT I pretend to be my buddy Azrael.
You're not Az, but more posts from you is good. If you don't think there are scum on my wagon, then where do you think they are? I don't think they'd ALL be in the "quietly don't stop it" group since that would be super sloppy.
What a garbage response, Eco. Cyan's lack of activity as it pertains to the speed of your wagon doesn't have to ride on the basis that you're scum - it just happens to fit that scenario perfectly.
Instead of telling me I'm too full of myself to consider the state of the game, how about you actually answer the question?
You're a garbage response
What part of my own wagon analysis didn't answer your question? Cyan is in the pool of potential scum because he's anti-my-wagon but hasn't done anything to actually try and stop it, nor actually produced a read of me.
Not sure yet, haven't really read through the game. I'll have something for you later on.
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Ok, first read-through. Apparently, per the MU championship, I'm better off going with my first impressions than endlessly revising things out-thinking myself, and I'm also much better off when I've got meta data on all my targets. So my D1 first impressions on people who I play with a lot, feeling pretty confident about those.
So, went back through to see if anything changed my impressions on Vox/Eco/Iso scum team, or if any town-reads I had flipped. I'll show my work as I go, or at least point towards the posts that I found indicative. If I already addressed it, or feel its self-evident as with these initial Eco posts, I may skip the explanation there.
How to explain what's wrong with this one. Easiest to describe it as the classic scum discrediting the attacker mentality, I suppose, though I could wax poetic for several more paragraphs on it.
What an exciting opening. L-3 in one page. Got to be a new MTGS record. Maybe we might actually play at a reasonable pace.
I like that GJ's focus here is not that he's portraying it as a disturbing development at first, but for what it means for the game. That's not likely to come from scum aligned with Eco, the focus would be slightly different, more of a tingle of alarm, rather than this original, unintuitive idea regarding a good pace.
OK I'm caught up; kind of weirded out that it was that short for a game that started this morning. I need to recalibrate /hard/ to MTGS I think.
I think Eco's responses to Seppel/Azrael feel kind of overly, hm, not reasonable but overly careful maybe? I think there's a decent shot they're both town and caught Eco a bit flat-footed there. I don't /think/ he's aligned with either of them, and prooooobably Seppel/Azrael not knowingly aligned as well, though that's thin for sure given what I know about them. I still don't really see what they jumped on in his first post and I kind of want that discussion.
Vaimes could definitely be scum here; especially if me, Vox, Mal are town he might just be super tilted/sad already and IT'S SHOWING. No real strong feeling about it but of all the people in this game I've played with Vaimes the most and I don't /think/ I've ever been wrong on him?
That's all I got. Everyone should post lots and lots and lots and lots and lots more.
A very nice townie newcomb post, here. Very organic thought processes.
Random thought: We should try to have this not be like two separate games with two groups who know each other better talking mostly among themselves.
I... don't really know what to ask Chris, Seppel, Azrael, or Ecco right now other than what I asked Sppel/Az earlier, though.
Ecco, I guess, from your point of view, are there any potential alignments or unalignments on your wagon? I don't think I can be more specific than that without being leading.
Love the bit where he says he doesn't know the questions to ask certain people. Very genuine, very open mentality.
With that being said, Eco's gold star also felt pretty awkward and unnatural. It reminds me of KosaKosa in WWE Mafia a few years back on the first page or two.
Light town reads on Seppel and Vaimes.
@Sir Chris - Thoughts on the Vaimes/Newcomb interaction above?
First sentence here is awful for Vox. Weak distancing from Eco, is what it looks like, without actually applying additional pressure to Eco. And later, Vox backpedals on this, and starts attacking me, where before he describes Eco's behavior as "pretty awkward and unnatural". It's a pivot based on wanting to defend Eco, and being indecisive initially about where/whom/whether to try to redirect and save his buddy.
Kind of meta. I think I can explain Seppel reads better when I have more interactions to point to, but he feels more... 'Hey, here is what I see and what I think' Seppel rather than 'Agenday' Seppel. It's early and not super strong, but it's there.
Dislike this attempt to explain his read on Seppel. Not that I think seppel is scum, but he hedges this too much, and it's such a mushy, abstracted, unconfident way of presenting what he says he sees.
okay so I actually read the thread now albeit backwards and I'm going to bed after I make this post.
So I'm down with the Eco wagon, it feels right and neither Az nor Seppel have given me bad vibes. Not moving that vote.
GJ's opening seemed uh, out of place? I'm not really sure how to describe it other than a gut feeling since he hasn't posted since.
I like that mal's opening was deliberate, that it prickled Voxxicus accordingly, and that he responded to it. We have half of this game cleared, already.
I'd really appreciate if tom dropped the posting gimmick, but whatever. I'm sure his votes will reveal his true face. (Is there a Lolth card in Hearthstone?)
I sort of glazed over Vaimes & Newcomb's exchange. I'll sort them out with wagon analysis, as well.
So that just leaves:
Vaimes
Newcomb
Cyan
Chris
tom
GJ
and I don't think Cyan has posted, yet, of those six.
-
@Chris: Let's tango. Tell me about your opening post. Should I be townreading you for it?
"It feels right" is a terribly vague way to support the Eco wagon, and piggybacking off alleged town reads on Seps and I this early is totally unjustified, too.
The attack on GJ is too tentative, also. Followed up by an attempt to project confidence and adhere to his normal townie, brash, confident pattern in clearing multiple players. But it's just a facsimile, his true emotions don't match the assertive tone he typically uses, and is failing to emulate here.
His post was decidedly not a random vote. He showed no excitement or feeling that he was doing something fun by voting Az. It was a calculated play of attempting to do something fun, but without any of the associated feelings of doing something fun.
Then, I stated that my vote was serious. He has since tried desperately to shrug me off by posting a meme and downplaying my vote. Essentially laughing in our faces, implying that he won't crack.
Seppel, you have a vivid imagination but you are just flat out wrong. Sorry for not being excited enough about my RVS vote I guess.
Given that you (and Vaimes) are either voting me for pressure or because you spotted one of Seppels incredibly-flimsy-at-best "tells", I gave you the benefit of the doubt of not doing the dumb thing. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me by explaining what egregious scum tells I committed.
There's only one C in my name
There's not really much to go on, but I agree Seppel and Az are unlikely to both me Mafia, same with Az and Chris. As for the votes, I think Chris' looks kind of bad since he kind of asked Az permission to join the wagon, but he did it with a pointless question that no-one would answer negative to: so why didn't Chris just vote me in the first place? Also don't like Vaimes' vote all that much, since both #42 and #63 kind of contradict: the former suggests he doesn't actually think I'm scum, but the latter calls me a scum read (@Vaimes please explain). I strongly disling Voxx's not-vote on me: notice how #66 actually lays out a justification for voting me (which is more than anyone else had done), but doesn't do the deed himself or pass any kind of judgement on my alignment. Just dangles it out there for others to use.
Vote Voxxicus
Hi Iso. This is a train of thought that I don't really understand. It looks like you're voting me because Az and Seppel don't give you bad vibes (which I read as distinct from "give you good vibes") but not because you actually think I'm scum. What about the other two votes on me at the time? Why don't the vibes they give matter?
Restrained sarcasm that he's trying to bite back throughout. Again, weakly disparaging his attackers tell vs. Seppel.
And newcomb has covered the problematic interactions with Vox already.
I realise that it's exiting to try and speed lynch someone you think you caught after one post, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.
I'd expect probably one more sentence/emotional sentiment from the townie version of this post, and it would be something along the lines of "So stop it, you idiot!"
*nods*
*considers wrapping eco in a cocoon to be consumed later*
*glares at azrael menacingly*
*looks at sir chris bemusedly*
*glances at seppel quizzically*
*is fine with vaimes and isos votes*
*realizes how expressive spiders apparently are*
So tom's posting style does it make somewhat difficult to parse his thoughts, gimmicks like this are great for masking emotions, but I do like the way he expresses these sentiments, here. I think I'm getting a genuine townie mindset read here, breaking through the interference.
Oh, so you're stepping forward as his buddy. Thanks for making this easy!
im 12
I dunno, I feel like the Eco lynch is a slam dunk, and we have a good secondary lead off of the above GJ post.
Hated this, for reasons mentioned earlier. I don't agree with the GJ wagon. I think Iso's just setting him up to be our first mislynch when Eco flips town, bc GJ was the closest person to a defender that Eco had at this point. Trying to make up for the loss that will come from D1 scum lynch by misdirecting the town on D2. Very much a scum mentality,to try to compensate for the D1 bus by lining up a D2 mislynch heir apparent.
Yeah, this game isn't going to work if 75% of the playerbase is either playing their cards super close to the chest, or just not invested at all; for some of you I honestly can't tell which.
I was waiting for Eco to respond but **** it, it's taking forever.
If Eco's scum here I think there's a real chance it's Eco/Voxx/X, which hurts.
Specifically, if Eco is scum who got rocked back on his heels here, lashing out at a partner feels kinda like the only / strongest move when you're tilted like that, and if this is Eco's honest assessment of the people surrounding his early vote pileup, he missed one:
My take on the early Eco thing was this:
Which is almost exactly what Eco's tagging Voxx for here: taking a swipe at Eco with some justification. Since I posted before Voxx, Eco slapping Voxx with "just dangling it out there for people to use" is... I'm putting myself in town!Eco's head here, and unless he literally didn't read my post I don't see how he focuses on Voxx here but doesn't on me, especially since I'm the one asking the question.
What went on in his head made a ton more sense if he's scum here, since it's like - he's not honestly scanning the thread and talking about it, he's pushing for an agenda, he's looking for Things To Comment On To Sound Town.
I'm considering the other permutation here, where Eco's scum and trying to push a mislynch on town!Voxx here, or a level deeper, making it look like town!Voxx is his partner, but pushing early on Voxx of all people when you're cornered scum is kinda ???, and I kinda think if it's the second thing, he'd have highlighted it in some way, not stuck it in the middle of a post like that.
So yeah, if Eco flips scum, Voxx probably never escapes the PoE for me.
I'm only at about 50/50 on Eco, which is, eh, a moderate scumread. I would agree with GJ's "this feels too consensus-y" except the game is just too young for that to really be a thing. Aside from me/Vaimes sparring a bit - and god, can someone please talk about that or /something/? It's honestly bruising my ego a tiny bit that no one found anything to comment on there beyond Voxx using it to poke Chris with in the most desultory way possible.
I feel like if Eco's town here, I don't really have a solid handle on what the gamestate is. I'd kiiinda tend to go with "people who are staying out of the way are >rand wolf" but that could be so many people.
I think gun to my head, Vaimes is town here, but I just viscerally don't /like/ the way he pushed me. It didn't feel malicious or awkward, it felt... I actually can't think of a word. Dissonant, maybe. Some kind of disconnect between what he was saying at what he was doing. Despite that niggling doubt I have no interest in lynching him; I feel like I'll be able to sort him later and especially when I'm not directly interacting with him, that was definitely a mistake. And yeah light town I guess, but it's all tonal, which is a good way to read Vaimes but again, that disconnect. Vaimes if you're town here and you don't quite know what to do with me, the feeling's mutual.
I think it was this actually. I could buy this from Vaimes in isolation but combined with his next 4-5 posts it felt like one of the two of them didn't work with each other.
Everyone else is just either not posting or doing things so comfortably in their range as either alignment that I just have nothing. Like, Mal's RVS thing could come from either alignment. tom's BS could come from either alignment. Voxx's poke at Mal was out of the Voxx Handbook Of First Posts 101. Voxx actually /feels/ kinda town especially with how he replied to my Seppel ask; if he's mafia here it's 100% because Eco spewed him wolf, which would be pretty funny / annoying.
Chris is nada.
Azrael's interactions with Eco make him not w/w with Eco I think. If Eco's town, I'm not sure that really moves the needle on Azrael one way or another.
Iso miiiiight look a little worse in town!Eco worlds, for the way he's repping complacency with the lynch while being like the 5th person on it?
GJ's two posts are almost too textbook wolfy to be a wolf. But yeah, they don't look great.
@Azrael this was posted at your request; why'd you ask Mal that, and what did you get from it?
Yeah the thing is I kinda /agree/ with most of that? And not everyone has the same drive/engagement/desire or feels the same paranoia or level of wanting to solve or whatever but I'm sitting here thinking "man if it's not like Eco/Voxx/GJ we're kinda not playing a great game right now." I'm specifically thinking of GoldenEye here, which I read preeeeetty closely? In which Iso had a very specific idea about what the gamestate was, but pushed it in a way that felt much more visceral, like there were stakes.
Like... yeah even for someone who's completely content with the D1 wagon and the people on it, that's a pretty stunning lack of feeling or engagement.
tom is deliberately obfuscating his content, which is annoying. I wish you guys had just lynched that tendency out of him when he started messing around with gimmicks and whatnot, but that ship has probably sailed. He's an easy PoE lynch at this point.
Seppel's proooobably clear if Eco's mafia; even with MTGS's bus-heavy meta, that would be quite the hellbus. If he's somehow w/w with Eco I'm kind of gleefully rubbing my hands in anticpation of the truly massive amounts of salt that will be revealed in wolfchat after the game, which is bad of me.
Oh yeah and this Seppel post independently of Eco's alignment feels decently town:
GJ/Iso prooooobably not w/w for this? Although, lol, in the world where Eco's mafia I could almost see this as a "hit the panic button" distance if it's actually Eco/Iso/GJ. That's at the level of "passing fancy" though.
That's kind of a town thought to have, I think?
Although I kind of want to ask you, Iso, /exactly/ what you meant by it? Because reading it again now I actually think you could mean it in a few ways.
___
So yeah. This game is probably pretty easy if Eco's mafia here, but so far this is pretty zzzzz. You're all experienced and good and everything, no one needs a lecture. But this game isn't going to become fun unless some people step up. Snoozing our way to a D1 Eco lynch is pretty boring even if he is mafia, and would be preeeeetty embarrassing if he's town.
Excellent analysis here by newcomb, on the Eco/Vox linkage.
Page 1: Vaimes and Newcome both come across to me as thoroughly scummy. Their interactions reek of being same alignment, and not in a town way. The Eco wagon seems like much ado about nothing.
Page 2: Seppel explains his reasoning for initially voting Eco, which I find to be dubious at best. If it were anyone other than Seppel, I'd probably be voting here. But I've been burned on that too many times to count, so I'll wait and see what happens. Iso's summary post feels pretty townie, even if I disagree with him re: Seppel. Vaimes continues to get worse. He's maintained a scum read on newcombe for 2 pages(without voting him from what I can tell), but then hops onto the most popular wagon around instead, with no meaningful explanation for his change of heart.
Vote Vaimes
I buy that cyan believes these reads are correct, and they dovetail nicely with his stated views/perspective on the game. Nothing raising any eyebrows here for me.
I've only loosely skimmed through, but should have an hour or two of time free to dive into this in a bit.
But in the meantime:
Eco, hey, hey Eco.
Let's have a hypothetical situation here. Let's say you are town in a game. It is effectively the first page or two, arguably still RVS. A wagon springs up on someone who acts a little strange. You are amenable to pressure on this person, but have no interest in putting them at l-2 or so one page into the game. Another person also does something that strikes you as being out of character for them, and more indicative of their scum play.
What do you do in this scenario, as your hypothetical town self?
1) Do you vote for the person that already has a wagon on them, but very little explanation for any of the votes to respond to.
or
2) Do you vote for the secondary target that is pinging you in order to apply pressure and try to figure out their alignment.
Softball questions like these often come from scum trying to rehabilitate flaying buddies.
I have a healthy dose of skepticsm for Mal's 'it wuz a trap' thing. Will read through his posts more when I have actual time in a bit.
Az is pinging me, and not in a good way. I'm not seeing the confidence, the inquisitiveness, the desire to figure things out that I've seen from Town!Az, I'm seeing someone going through the motions, and that's been far more indicative of scum!Az.
Although to be fair there's been very little passion or fire from anyone yet. People aren't invested, and that includes quite a lot of town.
Chris, hey Chris. I get that you're probably busy. I'm not expecting the activity from the Chris of old, it'd be pretty damn hypocritical of me given how busy I also am. But while I agree lack of activity is not a scum tell for you, the lack of giving any *****s is kind of. Not a town tell, either.
Talk to me more. Tell me about Az, tell me about Seppel, tell me about Iso. Also tell me about the two people I asked you about earlier.
Hate this Vox post, too. Again, with the squishy, subjective reads on how people are coming across to him without any specifics or post citations. And again, it tends to redirect away from Eco, where before Vox was considering putting a hatchet in eco's back for being unnatural. Now, since pressure appears to be holding steady or declining, Vox feels safe coming out more strongly and pushing pressure in my direction for scantily supported reasons.
OK, let's say you see sense and decide to not kill me today. Who do you want to kill instead? What do you think about Voxx? Who do you think the scum on my wagon is(/are)?
The mutual bus on Vox, so that one of you hopefully survives, huh?
The asking a player to go look for other hypothetical scum is also another classic scum response in hope of a soft, conciliatory redirection.
Cleared:
4. Vaimes - town
8. Azrael - town
6. Sir Chris -town
9. Newcomb - hard-town.
12. Seppel - town?TOWN.
2. Gentleman Johnny -notes wagon speed. Relates it to pace. Weakly Pro-townish.
I don't see myself deviating from this three-scum combination. It's pretty plain and ugly in the above posts, if you'll take the time to read through. The interactions surrounding the Eco wagon just nail them all, and connect them all, in highly predictable scum patterns. Eco softly disparages his wagon why wondering how the hell things went so wrong, so fast. Vox fence-sits between bussing and defending briefly, wondering whether to step in and help him, pushes some unpersuasive distractions in the meantime, and then findly decides to reverse his initial stance and try to rescue Eco after the initial wave stalls. And Iso goes in for the vicious bus, reads the writing on the wall, but gets too tricky in trying to tie a link between GJ and Eco for D2, and can't match his townie tone and mannerisms very well in his other posts.
Confirm vote. End Eco for the day, then kill Vox based on Newcomb's analysis and the above analysis, and finish off Iso last.
[5] Ecophagy - Seppel, Vaimes, Azrael, Sir Chris, Iso
[1] Seppel - Gentleman Johnny
[1] Newcomb - tomsloger
[1] Cyan - mallorean_thug
[1] mallorean_thug - Voxxicus
[1] Voxxicus - Ecophagy
Not Voting: Newcomb, Cyan
Ok, so we need to Seppel back onboard, and then we need two more out of Mallorean, Cyan, GJ, and Tom to wrap this up. Gentlemen, let me know if you need any further explanations, clarifications, or supporting arguments on any of this.
I guess I'm supposed to just gloss over the fact that you didn't answer any of my questions. Your case on me is so flawed though, like how is me "biting back sarcasm" a scum tell when I've been railroaded so incredibly hard for poor reasons and sarcasm is basically my modus operandi in the first place. Of course I'm trying to discredit my attackers because their attacks are all terrible. I can't argue back with logic when I've been at L-2 all day for posting eleven words and a picture! You say you're cool relying solely on your early impressions because you know the meta better here, but where's the meta argument for me being scum?
It's great that you also want to kill my top scum read but you actually drowning in confirmation bias. When I flip town, is Voxx still at the top of your list? Or Iso? Or do you throw it all away and start again?
I guess I'm supposed to just gloss over the fact that you didn't answer any of my questions. Your case on me is so flawed though, like how is me "biting back sarcasm" a scum tell when I've been railroaded so incredibly hard for poor reasons and sarcasm is basically my modus operandi in the first place. Of course I'm trying to discredit my attackers because their attacks are all terrible. I can't argue back with logic when I've been at L-2 all day for posting eleven words and a picture! You say you're cool relying solely on your early impressions because you know the meta better here, but where's the meta argument for me being scum?
It's great that you also want to kill my top scum read but you actually drowning in confirmation bias. When I flip town, is Voxx still at the top of your list? Or Iso? Or do you throw it all away and start again?
Meta is less an argument for you being scum, and more of a way of ruling out misleading variables. Though it's occasionally useful for comparative purposes, as with Iso, I try not to lean too heavily on that.
Sarcasm isn't a scum tell, you're correct. But the way that sarcasm is delivered, can be in a townie fashion, or a scum fashion. Yours is the latter. The emotional mindset you're exhibiting right now is one of the things that I wrote about in detail in my two-part behavioral article from a zillion years ago, I'm afraid.
Couple with that a good chunk of the town cleared on POE, plus the web of questionable interactions and attacks from Iso/Vox connecting the three of you, and I think it's pretty reasonable combination case. If you disagree, feel free to dive into the gigantic word-wall and we can make everyone's eyes bleed, the way that God intended mafia to be played.
Sarcasm isn't a scum tell, you're correct. But the way that sarcasm is delivered, can be in a townie fashion, or a scum fashion. Yours is the latter. The emotional mindset you're exhibiting right now is one of the things that I wrote about in detail in my two-part behavioral article from a zillion years ago, I'm afraid.
Couple with that a good chunk of the town cleared on POE, plus the web of questionable interactions and attacks from Iso/Vox connecting the three of you, and I think it's pretty reasonable combination case. If you disagree, feel free to dive into the gigantic word-wall and we can make everyone's eyes bleed, the way that God intended mafia to be played.
I mean, the only reason I'm not f'ing and blinding right now and restraining my sarcasm is that I know that's obviously not going to help no matter how cathartic it would feel. While I'd love to engage in a wall of text fight with you, you've very cleverly constructed a case on all three of us that is 100% reliant on me being scum, while your read on me is based entirely on 11 words and confirmation bias. There's no logic to deconstruct, no way of explaining my mindset. This kind of magical case is certainly rare for scum to be able to concoct, but you're doubling down so hard on it without even considering any alternative viewpoint, and while you say you're happy to engage and discuss with me, you are flat out not answering my questions: why are you so adverse to telling me what your plan is when you turn out to be wrong?
[5] Ecophagy - Seppel, Vaimes, Azrael, Sir Chris, Iso
[1] Seppel - Gentleman Johnny
[1] Newcomb - tomsloger
[1] Cyan - mallorean_thug
[1] mallorean_thug - Voxxicus
[1] Voxxicus - Ecophagy
Not Voting: Newcomb, Cyan
Ok, so we need to Seppel back onboard, and then we need two more out of Mallorean, Cyan, GJ, and Tom to wrap this up. Gentlemen, let me know if you need any further explanations, clarifications, or supporting arguments on any of this.
Voxx seems smellier than Eco.
I have misgivings about Cyan, but when Iso pounced on them too, I got worried because Iso has done nothing townie this game.
Strongly agree that Chris, GJ, Tom, and Newcomb are town.
Could see you as last scum, but you're an outlier.
God damnit why are people town reading me I haven't even done stuff yet.
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Because my plan, in this hypothetical, would be contingent upon all sorts of factors that are not yet evident. I also find these types of "but what if I'm not scum" hypotheticals to be terribly unhelpful exercises. I can't guarantee how I'll respond in the future, because the conditions which would determine who I find to be secondarily more suspicious have not yet occurred, and my plans are always subject to change based upon new information. And if I were proven wrong this exact instance, then obviously I would need to go through a process of revision, ranging over the less-confident town reads, double-checking my work, cross-referencing with new tells and information. None of which, in the thirty seconds since I last did a thread analysis, will have changed. And at this point, you've not created any sort of evidentiary onus or objections for me to doubt my best current theory, so I imagine I'll sit tight for the time being and wait for feedback.
Because my plan, in this hypothetical, would be contingent upon all sorts of factors that are not yet evident. I also find these types of "but what if I'm not scum" hypotheticals to be terribly unhelpful exercises. I can't guarantee how I'll respond in the future, because the conditions which would determine who I find to be secondarily more suspicious have not yet occurred, and my plans are always subject to change based upon new information. And if I were proven wrong this exact instance, then obviously I would need to go through a process of revision, ranging over the less-confident town reads, double-checking my work, cross-referencing with new tells and information. None of which, in the thirty seconds since I last did a thread analysis, will have changed. And at this point, you've not created any sort of evidentiary onus or objections for me to doubt my best current theory, so I imagine I'll sit tight for the time being and wait for feedback.
OK, I get your desire to not want to reevaluate everything on a hypothetical, that's fair. What I'm trying to get at is that Scum Az is happier tomorrow to just try and lynch Voxx or Iso anyway, or is already planning for D2. That you're betting so hard on my flip is a town trait because scum would know that they'll be forced reevaluate tomorrow, and there aren't really any "oh Voxx/Iso was scummy anyway" back doors that scum Az would like to leave in.
Given that, it narrows down the "scum on my wagon" list to Iso, Chris, and Seppel. Chris is on hold until he makes a post that can be analysed. Seppel hasn't really provided any content beyond yelling "LYNCH HIM" at various people, which is a trend of pushing wagons without making cases, but that doesn't feel particularly outside Seppel's remit as either alignment. Iso, as I alluded to above, is being pretty insidious with his questions, and his he's dropping the WIFOM self-meta stuff early (but I guess he likes doing that anyway?). This game would be so much easier to parse if 80% of it wasn't a *****ty wagon on me. So I don't really like Iso or Seppel that much, but I can't say I've got anything concrete on either.
Why can't we just all be friends and lynch Voxx together?
Eco what do you think of the numerous people calling me town so far? What does that say about them?
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@Az: Swing and a miss. Why did you intentionally ignore my post where I directly stated my reasoning for not being my typical fang-baring, limb-ripping, scum-annihilating-machine-self?
What a garbage response, Eco. Cyan's lack of activity as it pertains to the speed of your wagon doesn't have to ride on the basis that you're scum - it just happens to fit that scenario perfectly.
Instead of telling me I'm too full of myself to consider the state of the game, how about you actually answer the question?
You're a garbage response
What part of my own wagon analysis didn't answer your question? Cyan is in the pool of potential scum because he's anti-my-wagon but hasn't done anything to actually try and stop it, nor actually produced a read of me.
So, would you be willing to join a Cyan wagon toDay?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
*circles a strand of silk around eco, az, voxx, gj, iso, and cyan*
*wonders how many scum are in there*
*realizes he cant tell without an eco flip*
*doesnt actually want an eco flip*
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
So, would you be willing to join a Cyan wagon toDay?
It would be pretty bloody hypocritical of me to wagon Cyan after he's made only two posts, but ***** if it's that or me then he's definitely not the worst alternative lynch.
@Az: Swing and a miss. Why did you intentionally ignore my post where I directly stated my reasoning for not being my typical fang-baring, limb-ripping, scum-annihilating-machine-self?
The one where you were relieved that other people could do the work for you this time? That one? Or the one where you said you were too busy or falling asleep or something?
@Az: Swing and a miss. Why did you intentionally ignore my post where I directly stated my reasoning for not being my typical fang-baring, limb-ripping, scum-annihilating-machine-self?
The one where you were relieved that other people could do the work for you this time? That one? Or the one where you said you were too busy or falling asleep or something?
The former. The latter was in a different game.
Also, it's more that I can ease off the gas a fair bit instead of being RIDE OR DIE RIDE OR DIE RIDE OR DIE FORCE THE GAME TO GO THE DIRECTION I WANT IT TO AAAAAAA Iso. Does not being a relentless, fun-sucking, Mafia Terminator really seem that uncharacteristic for me? Like, I acknowledge that it's very outside of the norm from my standard play, here, but I think you're relying too heavily on meta, here. You have an idea of what townIso normally acts like, and because I'm not doing that, you're coloring your read of me according to that. And your re-read was just a giant re-affirmation of your previous confirmation bias regarding this matter.
Take a step back.
Everyone told me I was crazy when I was analyzing the Sir Chris/kpaca/Hunger/Shockwave interactions in ZDS's Normal...but I was right, all along.
Maybe I'm not so crazy with regards to the Eco/GJ interactions?
Ultimately, you're the one that you have to convince of the merit of the above statement. I've said my piece - the rest is on you.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Also, it's more that I can ease off the gas a fair bit instead of being RIDE OR DIE RIDE OR DIE RIDE OR DIE FORCE THE GAME TO GO THE DIRECTION I WANT IT TO AAAAAAA Iso. Does not being a relentless, fun-sucking, Mafia Terminator really seem that uncharacteristic for me? Like, I acknowledge that it's very outside of the norm from my standard play, here, but I think you're relying too heavily on meta, here. You have an idea of what townIso normally acts like, and because I'm not doing that, you're coloring your read of me according to that. And your re-read was just a giant re-affirmation of your previous confirmation bias regarding this matter.
Take a step back.
Everyone told me I was crazy when I was analyzing the Sir Chris/kpaca/Hunger/Shockwave interactions in ZDS's Normal...but I was right, all along.
Maybe I'm not so crazy with regards to the Eco/GJ interactions?
Ultimately, you're the one that you have to convince of the merit of the above statement. I've said my piece - the rest is on you.
*shrugs* There's a reason you're third in my order, but I don't much care for how you approached Eco, which has nothing to do with meta. Confbias? Eh. No, I don't think that's it. I think you and Vox reacted much differently and far more suspiciously than any of the other players did with him.
Is it possible I should be looking at my weak-town reads who just avoided chiming in on the situation as much as possible instead? Maybe. But I prefer this tack, when reinforced with the other angles I'm seeing.
Honestly the most suspicious thing you've done to me is town clear me when you have no business town clearing me based off the little content I have provided. Your reasoning was "Chris had migraines so he was unable to really do much of anything, totes town here."
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Also, it's more that I can ease off the gas a fair bit instead of being RIDE OR DIE RIDE OR DIE RIDE OR DIE FORCE THE GAME TO GO THE DIRECTION I WANT IT TO AAAAAAA Iso. Does not being a relentless, fun-sucking, Mafia Terminator really seem that uncharacteristic for me? Like, I acknowledge that it's very outside of the norm from my standard play, here, but I think you're relying too heavily on meta, here. You have an idea of what townIso normally acts like, and because I'm not doing that, you're coloring your read of me according to that. And your re-read was just a giant re-affirmation of your previous confirmation bias regarding this matter.
Take a step back.
Everyone told me I was crazy when I was analyzing the Sir Chris/kpaca/Hunger/Shockwave interactions in ZDS's Normal...but I was right, all along.
Maybe I'm not so crazy with regards to the Eco/GJ interactions?
Ultimately, you're the one that you have to convince of the merit of the above statement. I've said my piece - the rest is on you.
*shrugs* There's a reason you're third in my order, but I don't much care for how you approached Eco, which has nothing to do with meta. Confbias? Eh. No, I don't think that's it. I think you and Vox reacted much differently and far more suspiciously than any of the other players did with him.
Is it possible I should be looking at my weak-town reads who just avoided chiming in on the situation as much as possible instead? Maybe. But I prefer this tack, when reinforced with the other angles I'm seeing.
Well, being wrong is your prerogative, but if you can't see the forest for the trees, I only need to convince the majority of the game to lynch GJ and Cyan.
You don't have to be on the list of people that vote with me, but if you want the game-winning glory of having all scum nailed on Day 1 with me, you're more than welcome to tag along for the ride.
Honestly the most suspicious thing you've done to me is town clear me when you have no business town clearing me based off the little content I have provided. Your reasoning was "Chris had migraines so he was unable to really do much of anything, totes town here."
Take my word for it that you don't want me to share my reasoning for my Chris townread as of yet. It'll be a bomb-drop.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
So, as I mentioned, I don't have any qualms with anyone on the Eco wagon. GJ is sort of half-assedly lashing out at the Eco wagon but there's no spirit there. He's obviously Eco's buddy, and in the interaction where Eco calls him out on the lack of counterpush, here, you can read the frustration in Eco's words - it very much reads like a scumbuddy angry with another scumbuddy for letting his wagon go on for so long, and not doing anything about it. So that's where that's coming from.
Now, let's look at the other players not jumping on the Eco wagon. Of them, we have:
Chris
Cyan
tom
Vaimes
Newcomb
I've unilaterally decided that Chris is town. Unrelatedly, he had the chance to push elsewhere, and he would either have done so or bused Eco into hell if he were scum.
You and Vaimes, I mentioned, I was sorting out later. That said, I like both of your recent big posts. I'm content to call you town for the time being.
So that leaves tom and Cyan.
tom feels like a fish out of water. tom expressed his surprise at getting voted into this game and he's coping with it as best as he can with his spider gimmick. But he feels more confused about the gamestate than anything, and I get a solve-y mindset from his posts.
That just leaves Cyan.
Cyan wasn't posting at this time, and Cyan is the last person who could possibly be pushing in a direction opposite to Eco. (Which he then did like clockwork, bravo scumCyan.) This indicated to me that Cyan's slot was extremely likely to be scum in this scenario, simply from the lack of momentum in other directions.
Make sense?
This is comically flawed. First, you just gloss over Newcombe and Vaimes, all in order to ultimately just try and paint me as scum. But let's really dig in here.
Here are Vaimes posts, relevant to Eco:
I now have a very weak townread on Seppel.
Unvote
Vote Eco
Very curious bandwagon vote.
For the record, I don't know what Seppel saw. Maybe Eco's joke was too flat or something; that'd be my guess.
But I liked Seppel's vote hop and happily hopped after him.
He doesn't know WHY Seppel voted Eco, but said vote hop made him not only read Seppel as town, but also made him jump on the wagon.
This explanation makes absolutely no sense. Just because 'person is town' doesn't mean that you follow them onto wagons. This tells me that Vaimes is scum, and either A)realizes that his scumbuddy Eco is under fire or B)just going along for the ride on an what he sees as an easy vote.
Next post worth noting:
Also I just noticed you didn't vote for anyone. Don't give a weak scumread like that and not even vote to try and scare me. I might think you're full of hot air and decide to lynch you for it.
This is Vaimed talking to Newcombe. There is nothing town about this post. Nothing. I've changed my mind re: Newcombe also being scum, but Vaimes is scum through and through here.
Note that this is already more effort than he ever put into the Eco wagon.
Then he literally says nothing else re: Eco in ANY WAY until:
Because I want to keep my vote on Eco and see how that read develops.
Can't vote two scumreads, unfortunately.
Still no actual reason why Eco is a 'scumread'. He just doesn't want to lose his position on that wagon.
Vaimes is scum, and that's that.
So now, let's get back to Iso. How is it that you missed all of this in your efforts here?
Reality is that you just wanted to paint me as scum, rather than logically assess the situation. But why? What do you have to gain here?
My best conclusion is that the scum team is Iso, Vaimes, Eco. Iso has decided that Eco is going down, and is just trying to salvage the situation by getting attention away from his other scumbuddy and onto myself/GJ instead.
So, let's take a look at the Iso/Eco interaction.
Vote Ecophagy
Choo choo
Blank vote.
So I'm down with the Eco wagon, it feels right and neither Az nor Seppel have given me bad vibes. Not moving that vote.
No actual reason why he would be voting Eco, just willing to go along while other people put in the work. This is emphatically not how town Iso operates.
It's also worth noting that, at the time that he posted the quote that I started this post with, Iso had never directly interacted with Eco himself either. So apparently I'm scum for doing so while NOT bandwagon voting, but Iso is town for doing so while bandwagon voting. Top shelf logic there.
Nevermind that I haven't directly interacted with anyone other than Vaimes and Seppel. But apparently this is fine in all cases, except Eco.
Fully confident that the scum team is, exactly, Iso, Eco, Vaimes. This makes complete sense to me.
I'm pretty sure Eco is at L-1 and hasn't claimed, and also somehow nobody cares about this, which is absurd. I know I haven't played in a few months, but I don't think things have changed THAT much. I'm pretty sure he should have claimed by now, and people shouldn't be pushing for him to just get lynched before we hear anything on this.
*circles a strand of silk around eco, az, voxx, gj, iso, and cyan*
*wonders how many scum are in there*
*realizes he cant tell without an eco flip*
*doesnt actually want an eco flip*
So, would you be willing to join a Cyan wagon toDay?
It would be pretty bloody hypocritical of me to wagon Cyan after he's made only two posts, but ***** if it's that or me then he's definitely not the worst alternative lynch.
Did you just type your name in the quote box where you quoted me? I'm flattered.
I get the distinct feeling that Cyan is annoyed by the Eco wagon, but is also scumreading Eco.
Villager rating: plummeting.
Not to mention he ignored my general "I like Vaimes' and Newcomb's bigger posts". Like, I can break it down, but it's evident that you're both thinking critically about the game in such a way that is not indicative of the way scum usually approaches the game.
Have I mentioned I love any case on me that's based solely on the premise that I'm bad as scum? (See: Az's, Cyan's)
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
In a fairly fitting note, given the flavor for this game, the new Hearthstone expansion launched today and I've been playing that. I'll catch upon this tomorrow.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Cyan: So I'm magically part of the scum team, but you haven't actually given any explanation of why or even hinted at a scum read of me until now? This is just an incredibly obvious attempt to join the bandwagon and force my mislynch through. Vote Cyan
I'm at L-2. Still. If Chris comes in and continues to vote me, I'll claim.
@Cyan: So I'm magically part of the scum team, but you haven't actually given any explanation of why or even hinted at a scum read of me until now? This is just an incredibly obvious attempt to join the bandwagon and force my mislynch through. Vote Cyan
I'm at L-2. Still. If Chris comes in and continues to vote me, I'll claim.
Right. It makes all of the sense in the world for me to pass on your wagon initially, and then join it later when I'm fully under the microscope, and that wagon was clearly going ahead anyway. Nice try.
I'm just doing what Iso has been telling me to for years now. Find a scum team that makes sense as a unit. You, Vaimes, Iso makes complete sense. Blame your scumbuddies for bussing you if you want to be mad at someone.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Man, this is such a disingenuous set of questions. Like your wagon analysis just assumes I'm going to flip scum, so how can I say anything other than your base premise is false, please try again? I already spoke about Cyan in relation to my wagon in #154 in that I think he's in a group of players who have commented on my wagon and are not actively for it, but aren't doing anything to stop it either. Of that group I think Voxx is much the most likely to be scum which is why I've started there. And it's pretty obvious why I've not interacted with Cyan: he's made literally two posts and neither of them had anything directed at me, while I've clearly been focussing on trying to analyse my wagon and people who, you know, have content. Of course figuring out his alignment interests me, just not as much as other people's do: I don't have your brazen levels of confidence to bust a gut trying to solve the entire game on Day 1.
These questions are so...leading. For real, are you scum or are you just blinded from chasing the high you got off ZDS' Normal?
If I'm reading this right, you're happy to push me off a cliff because you did it to Seppel once and it worked? Seriously? You think that Seppel and I have similar playstyles in any way?
At the risk of doing what I advised Chris never to do, it's worked somewhat more reliably than just once.
Granted, one of the very reasons I'm not pushing for your immediate death is I'm still trying to assess just how likely it is that it's reliable, this time.
OK, let's say you see sense and decide to not kill me today. Who do you want to kill instead? What do you think about Voxx? Who do you think the scum on my wagon is(/are)?
ITT I pretend to be my buddy Azrael.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
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Instead of telling me I'm too full of myself to consider the state of the game, how about you actually answer the question?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You're not Az, but more posts from you is good. If you don't think there are scum on my wagon, then where do you think they are? I don't think they'd ALL be in the "quietly don't stop it" group since that would be super sloppy.
You're a garbage response
What part of my own wagon analysis didn't answer your question? Cyan is in the pool of potential scum because he's anti-my-wagon but hasn't done anything to actually try and stop it, nor actually produced a read of me.
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2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
So, went back through to see if anything changed my impressions on Vox/Eco/Iso scum team, or if any town-reads I had flipped. I'll show my work as I go, or at least point towards the posts that I found indicative. If I already addressed it, or feel its self-evident as with these initial Eco posts, I may skip the explanation there.
Skip.
A tinge of condescension, here. *shakes head* Good emotion tell, indicates adversarial mindset vs. Seppel, knowledge that they enemies.
How to explain what's wrong with this one. Easiest to describe it as the classic scum discrediting the attacker mentality, I suppose, though I could wax poetic for several more paragraphs on it.
I like that GJ's focus here is not that he's portraying it as a disturbing development at first, but for what it means for the game. That's not likely to come from scum aligned with Eco, the focus would be slightly different, more of a tingle of alarm, rather than this original, unintuitive idea regarding a good pace.
A very nice townie newcomb post, here. Very organic thought processes.
Love the bit where he says he doesn't know the questions to ask certain people. Very genuine, very open mentality.
Very hollow, unpersuasive reason for an attack.
First sentence here is awful for Vox. Weak distancing from Eco, is what it looks like, without actually applying additional pressure to Eco. And later, Vox backpedals on this, and starts attacking me, where before he describes Eco's behavior as "pretty awkward and unnatural". It's a pivot based on wanting to defend Eco, and being indecisive initially about where/whom/whether to try to redirect and save his buddy.
Dislike this attempt to explain his read on Seppel. Not that I think seppel is scum, but he hedges this too much, and it's such a mushy, abstracted, unconfident way of presenting what he says he sees.
"It feels right" is a terribly vague way to support the Eco wagon, and piggybacking off alleged town reads on Seps and I this early is totally unjustified, too.
The attack on GJ is too tentative, also. Followed up by an attempt to project confidence and adhere to his normal townie, brash, confident pattern in clearing multiple players. But it's just a facsimile, his true emotions don't match the assertive tone he typically uses, and is failing to emulate here.
This is a Seppel town post. ^^^ Period.
Restrained sarcasm that he's trying to bite back throughout. Again, weakly disparaging his attackers tell vs. Seppel.
And newcomb has covered the problematic interactions with Vox already.
I'd expect probably one more sentence/emotional sentiment from the townie version of this post, and it would be something along the lines of "So stop it, you idiot!"
So tom's posting style does it make somewhat difficult to parse his thoughts, gimmicks like this are great for masking emotions, but I do like the way he expresses these sentiments, here. I think I'm getting a genuine townie mindset read here, breaking through the interference.
Hated this, for reasons mentioned earlier. I don't agree with the GJ wagon. I think Iso's just setting him up to be our first mislynch when Eco flips town, bc GJ was the closest person to a defender that Eco had at this point. Trying to make up for the loss that will come from D1 scum lynch by misdirecting the town on D2. Very much a scum mentality,to try to compensate for the D1 bus by lining up a D2 mislynch heir apparent.
No, no, no, no, yuck. Yuck yuck yuck.
Excellent analysis here by newcomb, on the Eco/Vox linkage.
I buy that cyan believes these reads are correct, and they dovetail nicely with his stated views/perspective on the game. Nothing raising any eyebrows here for me.
Softball questions like these often come from scum trying to rehabilitate flaying buddies.
Hate this Vox post, too. Again, with the squishy, subjective reads on how people are coming across to him without any specifics or post citations. And again, it tends to redirect away from Eco, where before Vox was considering putting a hatchet in eco's back for being unnatural. Now, since pressure appears to be holding steady or declining, Vox feels safe coming out more strongly and pushing pressure in my direction for scantily supported reasons.
When I've mistakenly attacked Iso as town before, he reacts much, much differently than this. This is the scum Iso version.
The mutual bus on Vox, so that one of you hopefully survives, huh?
The asking a player to go look for other hypothetical scum is also another classic scum response in hope of a soft, conciliatory redirection.
Cleared:
4. Vaimes - town
8. Azrael - town
6. Sir Chris -town
9. Newcomb - hard-town.
12. Seppel - town?TOWN.
2. Gentleman Johnny -notes wagon speed. Relates it to pace. Weakly Pro-townish.
- Weaker Town Reads
10. Cyan
11. mallorean_thug
3. tomsloger - PR camouflage
-The Scum
5. Voxxicus- scum!!!
7. Ecophagy - scum!
1. Iso scum
I don't see myself deviating from this three-scum combination. It's pretty plain and ugly in the above posts, if you'll take the time to read through. The interactions surrounding the Eco wagon just nail them all, and connect them all, in highly predictable scum patterns. Eco softly disparages his wagon why wondering how the hell things went so wrong, so fast. Vox fence-sits between bussing and defending briefly, wondering whether to step in and help him, pushes some unpersuasive distractions in the meantime, and then findly decides to reverse his initial stance and try to rescue Eco after the initial wave stalls. And Iso goes in for the vicious bus, reads the writing on the wall, but gets too tricky in trying to tie a link between GJ and Eco for D2, and can't match his townie tone and mannerisms very well in his other posts.
Confirm vote. End Eco for the day, then kill Vox based on Newcomb's analysis and the above analysis, and finish off Iso last.
Ok, so we need to Seppel back onboard, and then we need two more out of Mallorean, Cyan, GJ, and Tom to wrap this up. Gentlemen, let me know if you need any further explanations, clarifications, or supporting arguments on any of this.
It's great that you also want to kill my top scum read but you actually drowning in confirmation bias. When I flip town, is Voxx still at the top of your list? Or Iso? Or do you throw it all away and start again?
Meta is less an argument for you being scum, and more of a way of ruling out misleading variables. Though it's occasionally useful for comparative purposes, as with Iso, I try not to lean too heavily on that.
Sarcasm isn't a scum tell, you're correct. But the way that sarcasm is delivered, can be in a townie fashion, or a scum fashion. Yours is the latter. The emotional mindset you're exhibiting right now is one of the things that I wrote about in detail in my two-part behavioral article from a zillion years ago, I'm afraid.
Couple with that a good chunk of the town cleared on POE, plus the web of questionable interactions and attacks from Iso/Vox connecting the three of you, and I think it's pretty reasonable combination case. If you disagree, feel free to dive into the gigantic word-wall and we can make everyone's eyes bleed, the way that God intended mafia to be played.
I mean, the only reason I'm not f'ing and blinding right now and restraining my sarcasm is that I know that's obviously not going to help no matter how cathartic it would feel. While I'd love to engage in a wall of text fight with you, you've very cleverly constructed a case on all three of us that is 100% reliant on me being scum, while your read on me is based entirely on 11 words and confirmation bias. There's no logic to deconstruct, no way of explaining my mindset. This kind of magical case is certainly rare for scum to be able to concoct, but you're doubling down so hard on it without even considering any alternative viewpoint, and while you say you're happy to engage and discuss with me, you are flat out not answering my questions: why are you so adverse to telling me what your plan is when you turn out to be wrong?
Voxx seems smellier than Eco.
I have misgivings about Cyan, but when Iso pounced on them too, I got worried because Iso has done nothing townie this game.
Strongly agree that Chris, GJ, Tom, and Newcomb are town.
Could see you as last scum, but you're an outlier.
Vaimes and Mal have done nothing memorable.
Unvote, vote Eco
Game's almost on lock.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
I don't disagree with you on that. I'd find either to be acceptable, pending feedback from others.
[5] Ecophagy - Vaimes, Azrael, Sir Chris, Iso, Seppel
[2] Cyan - mallorean_thug, tomsloger
[2] Vaimes - Cyan, Gentleman Johnny
[1] mallorean_thug - Voxxicus
[1] Voxxicus - Ecophagy
Not Voting: Newcomb
With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Deadline is on Monday, December 12th.
OK, I get your desire to not want to reevaluate everything on a hypothetical, that's fair. What I'm trying to get at is that Scum Az is happier tomorrow to just try and lynch Voxx or Iso anyway, or is already planning for D2. That you're betting so hard on my flip is a town trait because scum would know that they'll be forced reevaluate tomorrow, and there aren't really any "oh Voxx/Iso was scummy anyway" back doors that scum Az would like to leave in.
Given that, it narrows down the "scum on my wagon" list to Iso, Chris, and Seppel. Chris is on hold until he makes a post that can be analysed. Seppel hasn't really provided any content beyond yelling "LYNCH HIM" at various people, which is a trend of pushing wagons without making cases, but that doesn't feel particularly outside Seppel's remit as either alignment. Iso, as I alluded to above, is being pretty insidious with his questions, and his he's dropping the WIFOM self-meta stuff early (but I guess he likes doing that anyway?). This game would be so much easier to parse if 80% of it wasn't a *****ty wagon on me. So I don't really like Iso or Seppel that much, but I can't say I've got anything concrete on either.
Why can't we just all be friends and lynch Voxx together?
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
So, would you be willing to join a Cyan wagon toDay?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
*pouts*
>townread on Sir Chris
Pick one, Seppel.
*wonders how many scum are in there*
*realizes he cant tell without an eco flip*
*doesnt actually want an eco flip*
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Says they're happy to make hard reads out of inconsequential amounts of information, which is rather in line with everything else today.
It would be pretty bloody hypocritical of me to wagon Cyan after he's made only two posts, but ***** if it's that or me then he's definitely not the worst alternative lynch.
You do, you just don't know it yet.
Come to the dark side. We have finely aged meats and the dessicated husks of furry woodland creatures!
Not Mr Mittens!
The one where you were relieved that other people could do the work for you this time? That one? Or the one where you said you were too busy or falling asleep or something?
The former. The latter was in a different game.
Also, it's more that I can ease off the gas a fair bit instead of being RIDE OR DIE RIDE OR DIE RIDE OR DIE FORCE THE GAME TO GO THE DIRECTION I WANT IT TO AAAAAAA Iso. Does not being a relentless, fun-sucking, Mafia Terminator really seem that uncharacteristic for me? Like, I acknowledge that it's very outside of the norm from my standard play, here, but I think you're relying too heavily on meta, here. You have an idea of what townIso normally acts like, and because I'm not doing that, you're coloring your read of me according to that. And your re-read was just a giant re-affirmation of your previous confirmation bias regarding this matter.
Take a step back.
Everyone told me I was crazy when I was analyzing the Sir Chris/kpaca/Hunger/Shockwave interactions in ZDS's Normal...but I was right, all along.
Maybe I'm not so crazy with regards to the Eco/GJ interactions?
Ultimately, you're the one that you have to convince of the merit of the above statement. I've said my piece - the rest is on you.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
*shrugs* There's a reason you're third in my order, but I don't much care for how you approached Eco, which has nothing to do with meta. Confbias? Eh. No, I don't think that's it. I think you and Vox reacted much differently and far more suspiciously than any of the other players did with him.
Is it possible I should be looking at my weak-town reads who just avoided chiming in on the situation as much as possible instead? Maybe. But I prefer this tack, when reinforced with the other angles I'm seeing.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Well, being wrong is your prerogative, but if you can't see the forest for the trees, I only need to convince the majority of the game to lynch GJ and Cyan.
You don't have to be on the list of people that vote with me, but if you want the game-winning glory of having all scum nailed on Day 1 with me, you're more than welcome to tag along for the ride.
Take my word for it that you don't want me to share my reasoning for my Chris townread as of yet. It'll be a bomb-drop.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
This is comically flawed. First, you just gloss over Newcombe and Vaimes, all in order to ultimately just try and paint me as scum. But let's really dig in here.
Here are Vaimes posts, relevant to Eco:
Very curious bandwagon vote.
He doesn't know WHY Seppel voted Eco, but said vote hop made him not only read Seppel as town, but also made him jump on the wagon.
This explanation makes absolutely no sense. Just because 'person is town' doesn't mean that you follow them onto wagons. This tells me that Vaimes is scum, and either A)realizes that his scumbuddy Eco is under fire or B)just going along for the ride on an what he sees as an easy vote.
Next post worth noting:
This is Vaimed talking to Newcombe. There is nothing town about this post. Nothing. I've changed my mind re: Newcombe also being scum, but Vaimes is scum through and through here.
Note that this is already more effort than he ever put into the Eco wagon.
Then he literally says nothing else re: Eco in ANY WAY until:
Still no actual reason why Eco is a 'scumread'. He just doesn't want to lose his position on that wagon.
Vaimes is scum, and that's that.
So now, let's get back to Iso. How is it that you missed all of this in your efforts here?
Reality is that you just wanted to paint me as scum, rather than logically assess the situation. But why? What do you have to gain here?
My best conclusion is that the scum team is Iso, Vaimes, Eco. Iso has decided that Eco is going down, and is just trying to salvage the situation by getting attention away from his other scumbuddy and onto myself/GJ instead.
So, let's take a look at the Iso/Eco interaction.
Blank vote.
No actual reason why he would be voting Eco, just willing to go along while other people put in the work. This is emphatically not how town Iso operates.
It's also worth noting that, at the time that he posted the quote that I started this post with, Iso had never directly interacted with Eco himself either. So apparently I'm scum for doing so while NOT bandwagon voting, but Iso is town for doing so while bandwagon voting. Top shelf logic there.
Nevermind that I haven't directly interacted with anyone other than Vaimes and Seppel. But apparently this is fine in all cases, except Eco.
Fully confident that the scum team is, exactly, Iso, Eco, Vaimes. This makes complete sense to me.
I'm pretty sure Eco is at L-1 and hasn't claimed, and also somehow nobody cares about this, which is absurd. I know I haven't played in a few months, but I don't think things have changed THAT much. I'm pretty sure he should have claimed by now, and people shouldn't be pushing for him to just get lynched before we hear anything on this.
Villager rating: plummeting.
*stretches silk between cyan and eco*
*plucks it like the jaws song*
*looks at eco*
*shows him vaimes' post*
*ponders*
(Hint: 3)
Did you just type your name in the quote box where you quoted me? I'm flattered.
Not to mention he ignored my general "I like Vaimes' and Newcomb's bigger posts". Like, I can break it down, but it's evident that you're both thinking critically about the game in such a way that is not indicative of the way scum usually approaches the game.
Have I mentioned I love any case on me that's based solely on the premise that I'm bad as scum? (See: Az's, Cyan's)
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Looking for a replacement right now.
o/
I'm at L-2. Still. If Chris comes in and continues to vote me, I'll claim.
Right. It makes all of the sense in the world for me to pass on your wagon initially, and then join it later when I'm fully under the microscope, and that wagon was clearly going ahead anyway. Nice try.
I'm just doing what Iso has been telling me to for years now. Find a scum team that makes sense as a unit. You, Vaimes, Iso makes complete sense. Blame your scumbuddies for bussing you if you want to be mad at someone.
Azrael has been posting significantly better.
Sorry I am choppy, I made the mistake of doing two games at once and it can be tough to focus for me nowadays.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Cyan's slot could be replaced with MT's slot, I suppose. Taking the path of least resistance when Cyan usually goes for the long game feels suspect.
The GJ way path to no lynching: