Ok, new plan proposal. I asked Az what would happen if my IC shot were redirected. He has confirmed it would become public cop shot, with the targeted players alignment being revealed. We empower me 2 points and Cyth 3 and have Cyth redirect the shot to another player. If I'm nigt killed I assume the shot would fizzle, but I'm expecting to eat the NK anyway since scum can't afford a confirmed town in Mylo. If it still goes through, scum kill Cyth or scum kill someone else we either have two confirmed town, or I'm confirmed town and we can POE the remaining players.
the point of having dota use his IC is to reveal his alignment. trusting the neutral to redirect it so that somebody else's alignment gets revealed seems like 1) a stretch anyway and 2) a way to avoid using the IC. plausible deniability.
too much risk for me.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
I'm a bit confused as to how you even came to ask Az about your IC being redirected, since redirections usually only change the target of things that actually target. Innocent Child abilities by nature usually don't target. On top of that, I'm with Meg here for the goal of DoTA using the IC.
Good lord, any plan giving Cyth more empower to potentially muck around with stuff seems absolutely wretched. Did you miss the part where if I were to try and vig. someone and Cyth. re-directed it we could just lose on the spot?
Cyth, remind me who you think the last scum is?
Tammy, who are you on right now? Me?
My current feeling is that if Cyth. is actually telling the truth about being Neutral (seems like a stretch atm, but I guess anything's possible), then Tammy feels like she would be the last scum, and she's playing to keep Cyth. alive, which she would definitely want to do since he could win with her if they were both around tomorrow.
Man, anyone who wants to keep the declared Neutral alive with the very shady explanation of his use of ability needs to re-think things. That's just straight-up logic. Even if he's somehow telling the truth he's a danger to turn on us, and, like, there's a totally good chance he's just lying.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Which part was inane and counter to what you said?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I hope axelrod is scum because his play would make so much more sense than him being town and just lol not reading a damn thing.
Like just a few hours ago I gave my view/fears of the game state in which it should be clear to anyone even merely skimming that I don't feel confident about anyone left either way.
But by all means keep making up reasons to scum read me...ohhh it even makes me scummier that I dared to consider a plan where we might have two confirmed town tomorrow, oh sue me for considering w way that could ensure a town win.
He also claimed that ability yesterday, right? Meaning he was suiciding himself if the Town decided to test him on it.
Does not seem like the best play/plan.
I mean, this makes sense, of course. But if it's not him, then who? (I know you think Tammy, but she's been actively Scumhunting and I'm not feeling it. Plus, if she's Scum, that means Seppel was buddies with Iso and GJ, and based on their interactions, again, I'm not feeling it.)
UGH I'll reluctantly Unvote based on logic, but I'm at a complete loss.
Manders I'm on my phone so I can't link the post but it's the post you made when you voted but I think. I linked it in one of my earliest posts as something that pinged.
My problem there is how she went after bur day one with that hammer and then got after her about voting for herself but then has done it two separate times since.
1) Bur voting for himself had nothing to do with why I voted for him.
2) "And then got after her about voting for herself" I do not understand what you are saying here. Can you elaborate?
If so, your response does not help me understand what you are saying about me.
@Manders: Do me and favour if you will, assume I do flip town if lynched today. Who do you think eats the NK tonight, and who would you lynch then tomorrow. If by POE I'm the last scum then would that mean you have null/town reads on everyone else? Where do you go tomorrow then?
No ******* clue.
But you had your chance to use your IC. Why DID you refuse to accept Cyan's empowerment?
Good lord, any plan giving Cyth more empower to potentially muck around with stuff seems absolutely wretched. Did you miss the part where if I were to try and vig. someone and Cyth. re-directed it we could just lose on the spot?
Cyth, remind me who you think the last scum is?
Tammy, who are you on right now? Me?
My current feeling is that if Cyth. is actually telling the truth about being Neutral (seems like a stretch atm, but I guess anything's possible), then Tammy feels like she would be the last scum, and she's playing to keep Cyth. alive, which she would definitely want to do since he could win with her if they were both around tomorrow.
Man, anyone who wants to keep the declared Neutral alive with the very shady explanation of his use of ability needs to re-think things. That's just straight-up logic. Even if he's somehow telling the truth he's a danger to turn on us, and, like, there's a totally good chance he's just lying.
I mean, if it's not DoTA, then it's probably Cythare or Megiddo, but if Cythare's telling the truth, I ******* HATE the thought of him getting this far just to lose to PoE in the end. Like I really do.
If you are Town, Bur, you did a disservice to us, what with your inability or refusal to contribute combined with your defeatist attitude. I firmly believe you to be Scum, but in the off-chance you are Town, at least we're eliminating a scummy distraction. Plus we will learn a TON from your flip.
Anyone still needing to empower others should have already done so, but should do so asap.
If you are Town, Bur, you did a disservice to us, what with your inability or refusal to contribute combined with your defeatist attitude. I firmly believe you to be Scum, but in the off-chance you are Town, at least we're eliminating a scummy distraction. Plus we will learn a TON from your flip.
Anyone still needing to empower others should have already done so, but should do so asap.
This post pinged. It didn't feel right.
And then you got after him for being defeatist but have been so yourself.
I thoight you got after him for his self-vote but I remembered wrong, it was other people discussing the self vote, so nevermind that point.
Axel - why did you kill cyan last night and not me? If I'm playing just like I did as scum, why wouldn't you take me out especially considering I asked to be vigged if I were in people's Poe lists?
I wish that megiddo was in the game the full time so I could see what wildfire said about him, but he gave decent town reads on his flipped scum partners, and the only person left here he town read was dota's slot. Everyone else he scum read for to some extent for pretty silly reasons and line up with some of his scum read reasonings on flipped town.
If I'm remembering correctly he brought megiddo into the game when he thought he was being lynched.
Okay, I think the below team falls into place with my current worldview:
Axelrod
Seppel
Anaklusmos
And one of Cyan/TIM/Cythare
I've explained the former three, already, in various places and to varying degrees; so, let's look at the latter three, a bit.
Cyan's checked out of the game, for the most part. He quit Mafia and came back for the Invitational and this game, blah blah. I get that he's disengaged for whatever OoG reasons, but that has no bearing on his alignment and unfortunately he just hasn't given me enough one way or the other. Obviously I still think his early Manders approach looks town for him, but that's really the only thing I've seen from him that sticks out to m- oh wait Cyan likes Anak for scum. Hm. I guess that could have been an early bus? He did seem eager to jump off of Anak and on to me. Was Cyan also voting for Bur? If so, that strongly suggests Cyan/Anak as a scum pairing - and I've seen nothing from Anak that particularly compels me to change my read on him. If Anak flips town, I think it makes Cyan slightly less likely to be scum, actually, because I don't think scumCyan leaves his sweet spot on the Anak wagon just to hop on the Iso train as it's gaining momentum.
TIM...how to explain this? TIM's posts have read as town to me primarily because he seems to be viewing the game in the way that I am. I'm reading posts, having internal reactions to them, and then I read TIM's posts, and my initial reactions are almost always reflected in what I then read in TIM's following posts. That said, while the more visceral stuff is on-point, I feel like TIM's analysis has been weird, at best. Beyond our initial shared reactions to posts, it's like he spends time thinking about the game, and then arrives at the opposite conclusion that I do, which is worrisome, because I'm Iso and can do no wrong. I realize this is a pretty vague explanation without pointing out specific examples of this, but I guess the Anak analysis is the first thing that comes to mind regarding this. Which brings me to my next point: TIM spent an entire post talking about Anak's play all game...and then just sort of goes, "Eh, whatever" and votes me in spite of all of the effort he put forth in the post to analyze Anak. Like...what? Give me more than that - at least something more solid than a would contribute something to the game, instead of saying "HERE'S ALL THIS STUFF ABOUT ANAK but eh I'm just gonna say we should lynch Iso because I haven't read his bigposts." Am I insane, here? Is that not strange?
Cythare, I feel like hasn't had much of a presence all game, mostly because I still don't remember anything he's posted - and I'm pretty sure I've even talked to him, at some point, as well. I think he asked me a question or something. Maybe he asked a general question about the game and I answered? I dunno. This is a PoE read, at this point.
Anyway, given the above, I think it's still pertinent for us to lynch Anak toDay, which I believe will give us insight on Cyan, as well.
Iso, I'm still here just because you can't recall me. I know that you said I was neutral for this before, and now it just looks like you're reaching for reads. I went back to see if I had actually missed you asking me something, because I don't recall you doing so. Given how much you provided for the others, my placement there really just looks like "oh, and here's another person I can provide that hopefully can be mislynched down the road". Also, the part about TIM comes across...off to me.
I've been uninterested in moving forward with this lynch because I felt that Anak/Wildfire were better (and still feel like we should be lynching Wildfire over Iso because they're both likely and Wildfire's role seems more dangerous than Iso's), but I'm fine with just lynching Iso. I do still want us all to sort out empowerment first.
So as you become the more likely candidate for a lynch, your response is to shotgun 3 other people that could be scum. Really comes off as a "Look at all these other people, they could be scum instead!". If you really wanted to narrow down your scum team, why not go through people that you think are town, for example that Tom 180 you seem so adamant on keeping secret. The scum reads you have no problem throwing out though, and yes I get that DV asked for a new team from you, but coming back with 6 scum reads? Thats not a scumteam, thats flailing.
Consider my vote on Iso.
@Azrael Votecount please?
@WF Why are you so intent on lynching Seppel? I don't know what to think of him really, but doesn't that make him a much better vig target than lynch?
are you guys serious
I don't have 6 scum reads. Don't be absurd.
I have 3 scum reads and 3 "unsure"s.
Cythare, as I said, you're in there because PoE. Please point out to me anything particularly alignment-indicative that you've done. I'm curious where your head is at.
Anak, what the ****? I literally just re-examined two of my stronger townreads to provide that list...how are you so completely out of touch with the game?
I must be playing a different game from everybody else.
Okay so Iso had hard town reads on Manders, Wildfire and GJ during his time while he was alive. The other decent town reads he had he decided to go back on for that last reads list up there. (In his final version, he claimed Cyan to be the fourth one.) TIM was never in any danger of being lynched or scum read, so I'm really not sure what to think there. I've been considering all game that his strong town read and defense of Manders was due to them being friends and him pocketing her. My guess is that she would expect iso to town read her and defend her from silly attacks, and I still think it looks like that for the most part.
Here's my current conundrum:
Why did Cythare out that he was a neutral? I've heard that on this site you guys lynch neutrals who claim late game, so why not keep quiet about it?
Why did Wildfire bring another player into the game on day three when it looked like he was going to get lynched. I mean on day three, iso had already been lynched and the lynch was going to be between wildfire and johnny, so they'd be down another scum. So, why the heck did he bring another player into the game? If he's innocent?
So now I'm wondering if Cythare recognized that Megiddo was scum and outed as a neutral because yay they could win the game together. Megiddo's franticness looked real at the start of the day, but it would be real too if he were scum. Was Cythare not expecting his scum read to suggest his death? I imagine that scum would want to tow the party line about the neutral being killed lest they look like scum. But if that were the case then why wouldn't Cythare just out his scum read on Megiddo and win today? Also Dota thinks this doesn't look like Megiddo's scum game.
Conundrum. But I think I'm out of steam and will finish looking at Johnny's mess of an iso later.
@Manders: Do me and favour if you will, assume I do flip town if lynched today. Who do you think eats the NK tonight, and who would you lynch then tomorrow. If by POE I'm the last scum then would that mean you have null/town reads on everyone else? Where do you go tomorrow then?
No ******* clue.
But you had your chance to use your IC. Why DID you refuse to accept Cyan's empowerment?
Because at that stage I wasn't certain that giving scum that much empowerment which they could move around freely at instant speed was a good idea.WF flipping scum has made me feel a bit better about it, since even with 2 additional empowerment on top of however much they have left I don't think scum can orchestrate enough night kills in a single night to insta-win this.
I feel like I'm all in on the last scum being between Cyth/Tammy, with, I guess a very outside chance of it being Manders.
Can't be Meg. unless the game was just borked from the beginning. I won't believe 4 scum main with basically a 50/50 of getting a 5th via the spec. thread in a 17 player game. So for Meg to be scum it would have to have been 3 main, and then the scum would have (rightly) complained about how outnumbered they were and the "chance" of getting another one doesn't really make up. So, it was 4 main, but the spec thread was not stacked to give the scum a huge chance to land their 5th. Like, 5 is still huge, but that's just the way it had to be. I will plant my flag on that and reserve the right to dismiss any scum victory as unearned at the end if it's otherwise.
I guess 3 main, 50-50 in the spec thread + Neutral is slightly plausible. But just feels all kinds of wrong.
I can't see DoTA/TIM. TIM was simply too town, and I never see that claim (a complete bluff that could have been and still can be be called) coming from scum.
Which leaves the above three. Cyth and Seppel/Tammy are already demonstrated liars and Cyth's actions are all kinds of shady. Manders has been consistent, which is why she's my third one out there.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I wish that megiddo was in the game the full time so I could see what wildfire said about him, but he gave decent town reads on his flipped scum partners, and the only person left here he town read was dota's slot. Everyone else he scum read for to some extent for pretty silly reasons and line up with some of his scum read reasonings on flipped town.
If I'm remembering correctly he brought megiddo into the game when he thought he was being lynched.
I was in fact posting for most of the game. you can look at what I said.
I'd also recommend looking up some of my old games for reference since you are looking to use meta. I haven't played in about a year other than a completely disastrous scum game, so I haven't really evolved my play at all.
Also it's not accurate to say that wildfire brought me into the game. Please reread spec ops page 5. Proph would have, 100%, shot me in the face after Vaimes if he hadn't killed himself (I was actually sleeping when sudden death started). And then he'd be here instead of me. WF definitely did activate the ability when he thought he was being lynched though. I maintain that the reason for this was to cut down the active town posters in the chat from 3 to 1. Essentially a free double kill.
One last thing for you. You asked why I picked a fight over that issue? That's one of the ways I scumhunt. Find something odd, poke at it, force it into an argument and see what happens. Sometimes I find scum trying to argue on sifting sand, other times I realize I'm the one pushing a bad argument and back off. Depends on the circumstances.
Also also (replying to a later post), I did actually straight up ask Cythare if he was a neutral last Night. He said he was, and then we spent a page and a half of PMs hashing it out. You can ask him why he answered in the affirmative.
Also what franticness
and seriously you should read some of my games for meta. I can link you a few if you'd like.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
Thank you, that actually helps. I did reread how the sudden thing happened a few days ago, and it does pan out with what you've said. I probably would like to look at some meta to round that out.
If your referring to me and frantic, hell yes I'm frantic, it's end game and I don't trust anyone here. My biggest scum read was Cyan; I was convinced I was right about that read and he flipped town, so now I'm without that assurance. I trusted you and Cythare the most, but then Cythare claimed neutral and while I don't think he's been playing for scum and I'd feel totally bad about him dying and losing when he's made it this far, I also know that leaving him alive in 3p is dangerous as ****. I played a neutral over the summer where I decided ahead of time to town side and would have town sided even in lylo I truly believe, so I'm also wondering what if there.
I trusted you for the most part and while that argument may have helped you or done nothing for you, it wasn't neutral for me. Your point that you wanted to clear me through my action has stuck with me and grown. In order for that to be an actual reason that you had yesterday, you had to have believed that wildfire was getting lynched and known that he was flipping scum. You would have to have known that we'd be down to one scum today. And you would have to have known that scum couldn't action and kill on the same night, which is something that is only known to the mod and the scum team usually. That's why I went to the rules to see if that was open knowledge the other day and asked you about it. You saying that it was just a reason to have an argument didn't do anything but make me more concerned that you had accidentally slipped knowledge you shouldn't have about scum limitations. Then Iso kept making a show of not knowing the rules and about the spectator chat, which looks really fake, and that grew larger. Voxxicus said he'd be back on day three, and even though Wildfire's role doesn't say anything about what day things happen, I thought that wildfire bringing one of you into the game day three was something planned between all of you.
This has done nothing to help my view of the gamestate in which I'm already trying to figure out where I was wrong in the first place. I do not do well in end game as town, for one. I'm rarely here; the people who know me almost never leave me alive in part because I tend to get really paranoid and think I'm being manipulated by everyone and they can't control my actions so they'd rather not deal with an unknown. Recently I was inadvertently left alive to 4p, and I flat out panicked and thought town was manipulating me. I don't do well because I put too much pressure on myself to get it right, and usually I'm the one most trusted when I am alive. And then I do worse when people do suspect me because that's added pressure to try to both get it right and prove I should be trusted and then on both fronts I think the game is going to be lost and it's all my fault and I feel bad and it just gets really overwhelming. And it doesn't help when I don't trust really anyone left alive. I hate being scum, but man endgame is so much easier as scum.
Actually I do trust dota, I feel the most calm about dota. It's probably because of the IC thing though. Yeah I wish he'd have taken the empowerment from Cyan and I wish he'd have activated it sooner, but he's probably just town because anyway I look at it I can't see what his endgame plan is left here unless there is an extra scum we aren't accounting for. And the plan he came up with doesn't seem to terrible, and while I haven't mapped out the numbers yet I can understand someone thinking it's too risky.
And it's frustrating dealing with axelrod who might be town and is playing this way. He should be the one person here who has serious doubts about me being scum and he's like lolnope. It's super disingenuous to say that my play is anything like the way I played in the last scum game he saw me in. I was a godfather who got investigated night one because my play was so terrible and that let me live to end game. He made the remark at end game that he would be disappointed if I were scum and playing like I was because I literally did nothing for the majority of the game. I would like to think I'd play better than I did last game if I drew scum as part of the reason I sucked so terribly was because it was the end of a serious scum streak, but quite frankly I'm not far enough removed from my scum streak that it still wouldn't be a misery.
His play here doesn't look like the endgame he played there at all. He was insightful about people's play and he considered all of those who were left. Here he's making stuff up as far as I can tell. Nope there's no difference between this game and that game; I'm playing the same way which is a lolnope. I'm somehow a demonstrable liar, even though I haven't lied about anything. I'm trying to keep the neutral alive, when yes I've said I feel bad about killing him, and considered a potential plan to confirm two people as town, which hey maybe is a bad idea but there's no reason not to at least consider and talk about all possible options. I'd like to find a way where both town and Cythare could win. That would be awesome as far as I'm concerned.
OH you asked what franticness for you. You said that you were freaking out that the game was going to end after he claimed to you. That read really real and originally at the start of day I thought it looked really town, then I started worrying about you being scum and went back to that and thought well he could have been scum freaked out the day would end too.
Actually I asked Azrael but I don't expect him to answer. Does anyone here know Azrael's mod meta? Does he typically allow scum to action and kill on the same night?
As Megiddo noted, he directly asked me if I was neutral. I didn't see a reason to lie about it, since I was about to finish the non-survival part of my win condition. I considered claiming it yesterday, but I didn't want to give Wildfire any wiggle room to pivot the lynch away from himself.
Okay so Iso had hard town reads on Manders, Wildfire and GJ during his time while he was alive. The other decent town reads he had he decided to go back on for that last reads list up there. (In his final version, he claimed Cyan to be the fourth one.) TIM was never in any danger of being lynched or scum read, so I'm really not sure what to think there. I've been considering all game that his strong town read and defense of Manders was due to them being friends and him pocketing her. My guess is that she would expect iso to town read her and defend her from silly attacks, and I still think it looks like that for the most part.
Here's my current conundrum:
Why did Cythare out that he was a neutral? I've heard that on this site you guys lynch neutrals who claim late game, so why not keep quiet about it?
Why did Wildfire bring another player into the game on day three when it looked like he was going to get lynched. I mean on day three, iso had already been lynched and the lynch was going to be between wildfire and johnny, so they'd be down another scum. So, why the heck did he bring another player into the game? If he's innocent?
So now I'm wondering if Cythare recognized that Megiddo was scum and outed as a neutral because yay they could win the game together. Megiddo's franticness looked real at the start of the day, but it would be real too if he were scum. Was Cythare not expecting his scum read to suggest his death? I imagine that scum would want to tow the party line about the neutral being killed lest they look like scum. But if that were the case then why wouldn't Cythare just out his scum read on Megiddo and win today? Also Dota thinks this doesn't look like Megiddo's scum game.
Conundrum. But I think I'm out of steam and will finish looking at Johnny's mess of an iso later.
Megiddo didn't claim scum. I find it unlikely that he's the last scum.
I am really not making a meta argument, Tammy. I hate meta arguments. You are the one who is making a meta defense, and that's...not going to be very effective. At least for me. When I say you seem to be much the same this game as the last one, I'm mainly going be the feeling which is that you haven't had all that much of an impact. You've kind of just been there this game. And the other one as well. This is not an insult or a criticism. I haven't done jack squat this game for a month.
That said, I also said I haven't reviewed anyone this game, at least recently, so it's possible my memory of your impact is incorrect and you've actually been really involved and active and scum-hunting and I have not noticed. Possible.
This would not actually change anything, however, as far as the process of elimination argument I am making goes. And this idea that - even if you were playing totally different from last game to this - it means you aren't scum, is just bad. I would be the worst player in the world if I were to say, gee, Tammy isn't playing like she did in 3 little-pigs (when she got Cop cleared very early and coasted to victory), so I guess she's not scum this time?
Cyan was another person who was on the process of elimination bubble, and he was just really, really wrong this game. He was WF's biggest defender for awful reasons and trying to give him another shot. He also, not incidentally, kept calling me scum. He thirdly, and this is kind of incidentally, seemed pretty miserable and I thought at least I'll be putting him out of his misery if nothing else. So when WF flipped scum that just seemed like the best way to go.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Actually I asked Azrael but I don't expect him to answer. Does anyone here know Azrael's mod meta? Does he typically allow scum to action and kill on the same night?
Nope, couldn't answer it. I've looked for an Azrael modded game and am I blind or something? I don't see one.
BTW I can't wrap my head around this game anymore, so if the plan involves lynching one of myself or Tammy, I request you choose me. I know Tammy's already said the same, but she, at least, is investing the time and energy to try to figure this cluster**** out.
I, however, have no ******* clue who is the last Scum or where to go from here.
I mean, this does not seem to be rocket science. Meg. already put it out there, I'm just tweaking it so we don't lose to random Neutral shenanigans.
Give DoTA one more empower
Empower: DoTA
Someone gives me one more. I only need 1 more to activate the 2-empower vig. shot. This will give the Mafia an extra NK the following night but that will be meaningless at this point.
Lynch Cyth. And it's Cyth because (1) face it, he could easily just be scum with what he's claimed, but (2) even if he's not, he's a super danger. He could potentially re-direct my shot tonight in a bad way, and if he were alive tomorrow with the last scum, well, they could just win right then, yes? Or maybe Cyth. daykills again? Cyth. can say he'd choose to win with the Town in that scenario, and maybe he would? But it that a risk we even need to take? And if not, why do it?
I have zero of these feelings of guilt about lynching Cyth and depriving him of the "win" that both Tammy and Manders seem to be expressing. I can't imagine if I was in Cyth's position that I'd expect different either.
Lynch Cyth, then tonight, DoTA is confirming himself, and I'm shooting Tammy/Manders. Tomorrow, if we assume the scum either kill (1) DoTA because he's confirmed Town, or (2) me because I have a gun, that leaves Me/DoTA, Meg. and the other one of Tammy/Manders. If you accept that Meg. is Town, then that's a win. Unless you still think I could be the last scum.
Amusingly, it seems like there's still the possibility of a "draw" in this 3-man end game even if we mislynch, if I get two more Empower tomorrow, I could shoot again, and the presumed last scum (which I guess would have to be Meg at that point?) and I would kill each other. This is why I might just be eating the bullet myself tonight, I think. Or the scum could refrain from Night-killing at all to have a 4 person End game, but I don't think that really works out any better for them if DoTA is mod-confirmed.
Someone tell me what I'm missing.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
TIM could post in the spec thread using the Ash account, Az provided him with the password. If he wanted to use the day kill shot he would need to post it on a multiple of 40, and activating it turned him into a Miller.
Well, yes, if the scum were to choose to skip killing to try and leave more people alive, then it would be 4 tomorrow. I mentioned that possibility. But given it leave DoTA alive as presumably Mod. confirmed I don't think it changes anything - this is unless you think I'm somehow the last scum, which I also mentioned.
Which part? I feel like I've got the simplest role out of everyone's. That part?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
It's a moot point to discuss Today for me. My thoughts on plan haven't changed, and you suggested the one change to the plan that I was hoping somebody would point out.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
Axel I absolutely expect for you to use all the tools at your disposal when reading a game. You'd be the worst player in the world if you didn't, not if you think about the very vast gulf between my town and scum game.
Why have you read manders as town since your first post again? Oh right azrael wouldn't give her scum and she seemed excited to play.
My apologies to the very thorough way you're Redding people. And I wouldn't be surprised that you don't remember anything I've gone, I doubt you've actually read anything I've said. The only time you mentioned me was to answer a question i asked about your role and to say you preferred lynching me today. You say that cyan was a suspect of yours yesterday so why didn't you talk to me when I was trying to get someone to comment or talk to me about my cyan suspicions?
And you've been playing a bit too long to go durr hurr durr hurr seppel claimed neutral lynch all liars. That is probably the most superficial reasoning you could throw out there. But you keep being you!
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Thoughts?
too much risk for me.
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Cyth, remind me who you think the last scum is?
Tammy, who are you on right now? Me?
My current feeling is that if Cyth. is actually telling the truth about being Neutral (seems like a stretch atm, but I guess anything's possible), then Tammy feels like she would be the last scum, and she's playing to keep Cyth. alive, which she would definitely want to do since he could win with her if they were both around tomorrow.
Man, anyone who wants to keep the declared Neutral alive with the very shady explanation of his use of ability needs to re-think things. That's just straight-up logic. Even if he's somehow telling the truth he's a danger to turn on us, and, like, there's a totally good chance he's just lying.
Like just a few hours ago I gave my view/fears of the game state in which it should be clear to anyone even merely skimming that I don't feel confident about anyone left either way.
But by all means keep making up reasons to scum read me...ohhh it even makes me scummier that I dared to consider a plan where we might have two confirmed town tomorrow, oh sue me for considering w way that could ensure a town win.
Everything.
UGH I'll reluctantly Unvote based on logic, but I'm at a complete loss.
I'm assuming this was posted in response to this?If so, your response does not help me understand what you are saying about me.
You realize you're not God's gift to Mafia, right?
No ******* clue.
But you had your chance to use your IC. Why DID you refuse to accept Cyan's empowerment?
I mean, if it's not DoTA, then it's probably Cythare or Megiddo, but if Cythare's telling the truth, I ******* HATE the thought of him getting this far just to lose to PoE in the end. Like I really do.
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This post pinged. It didn't feel right.
And then you got after him for being defeatist but have been so yourself.
I thoight you got after him for his self-vote but I remembered wrong, it was other people discussing the self vote, so nevermind that point.
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If I'm remembering correctly he brought megiddo into the game when he thought he was being lynched.
So yes.
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I wonder why he didn't think there were any neutrals.
I like this interaction between Cythare and Iso.
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Here's my current conundrum:
Why did Cythare out that he was a neutral? I've heard that on this site you guys lynch neutrals who claim late game, so why not keep quiet about it?
Why did Wildfire bring another player into the game on day three when it looked like he was going to get lynched. I mean on day three, iso had already been lynched and the lynch was going to be between wildfire and johnny, so they'd be down another scum. So, why the heck did he bring another player into the game? If he's innocent?
So now I'm wondering if Cythare recognized that Megiddo was scum and outed as a neutral because yay they could win the game together. Megiddo's franticness looked real at the start of the day, but it would be real too if he were scum. Was Cythare not expecting his scum read to suggest his death? I imagine that scum would want to tow the party line about the neutral being killed lest they look like scum. But if that were the case then why wouldn't Cythare just out his scum read on Megiddo and win today? Also Dota thinks this doesn't look like Megiddo's scum game.
Conundrum. But I think I'm out of steam and will finish looking at Johnny's mess of an iso later.
Can't be Meg. unless the game was just borked from the beginning. I won't believe 4 scum main with basically a 50/50 of getting a 5th via the spec. thread in a 17 player game. So for Meg to be scum it would have to have been 3 main, and then the scum would have (rightly) complained about how outnumbered they were and the "chance" of getting another one doesn't really make up. So, it was 4 main, but the spec thread was not stacked to give the scum a huge chance to land their 5th. Like, 5 is still huge, but that's just the way it had to be. I will plant my flag on that and reserve the right to dismiss any scum victory as unearned at the end if it's otherwise.
I guess 3 main, 50-50 in the spec thread + Neutral is slightly plausible. But just feels all kinds of wrong.
I can't see DoTA/TIM. TIM was simply too town, and I never see that claim (a complete bluff that could have been and still can be be called) coming from scum.
Which leaves the above three. Cyth and Seppel/Tammy are already demonstrated liars and Cyth's actions are all kinds of shady. Manders has been consistent, which is why she's my third one out there.
Also can you point to where and how this game is at all simnilar to three little pigs cuz you're just lying your ass off there.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/search?search-thread-id=733596&search-forum-id=&forum-scope=f&display-type=0&search=&search-type=0&by-author=Tammy&begin-date=&begin-time=&end-date=&end-time=&min-posts=&min-views=&display-type=0&submit=y
I'd also recommend looking up some of my old games for reference since you are looking to use meta. I haven't played in about a year other than a completely disastrous scum game, so I haven't really evolved my play at all.
Also it's not accurate to say that wildfire brought me into the game. Please reread spec ops page 5. Proph would have, 100%, shot me in the face after Vaimes if he hadn't killed himself (I was actually sleeping when sudden death started). And then he'd be here instead of me. WF definitely did activate the ability when he thought he was being lynched though. I maintain that the reason for this was to cut down the active town posters in the chat from 3 to 1. Essentially a free double kill.
One last thing for you. You asked why I picked a fight over that issue? That's one of the ways I scumhunt. Find something odd, poke at it, force it into an argument and see what happens. Sometimes I find scum trying to argue on sifting sand, other times I realize I'm the one pushing a bad argument and back off. Depends on the circumstances.
Also also (replying to a later post), I did actually straight up ask Cythare if he was a neutral last Night. He said he was, and then we spent a page and a half of PMs hashing it out. You can ask him why he answered in the affirmative.
Also what franticness
and seriously you should read some of my games for meta. I can link you a few if you'd like.
If your referring to me and frantic, hell yes I'm frantic, it's end game and I don't trust anyone here. My biggest scum read was Cyan; I was convinced I was right about that read and he flipped town, so now I'm without that assurance. I trusted you and Cythare the most, but then Cythare claimed neutral and while I don't think he's been playing for scum and I'd feel totally bad about him dying and losing when he's made it this far, I also know that leaving him alive in 3p is dangerous as ****. I played a neutral over the summer where I decided ahead of time to town side and would have town sided even in lylo I truly believe, so I'm also wondering what if there.
I trusted you for the most part and while that argument may have helped you or done nothing for you, it wasn't neutral for me. Your point that you wanted to clear me through my action has stuck with me and grown. In order for that to be an actual reason that you had yesterday, you had to have believed that wildfire was getting lynched and known that he was flipping scum. You would have to have known that we'd be down to one scum today. And you would have to have known that scum couldn't action and kill on the same night, which is something that is only known to the mod and the scum team usually. That's why I went to the rules to see if that was open knowledge the other day and asked you about it. You saying that it was just a reason to have an argument didn't do anything but make me more concerned that you had accidentally slipped knowledge you shouldn't have about scum limitations. Then Iso kept making a show of not knowing the rules and about the spectator chat, which looks really fake, and that grew larger. Voxxicus said he'd be back on day three, and even though Wildfire's role doesn't say anything about what day things happen, I thought that wildfire bringing one of you into the game day three was something planned between all of you.
This has done nothing to help my view of the gamestate in which I'm already trying to figure out where I was wrong in the first place. I do not do well in end game as town, for one. I'm rarely here; the people who know me almost never leave me alive in part because I tend to get really paranoid and think I'm being manipulated by everyone and they can't control my actions so they'd rather not deal with an unknown. Recently I was inadvertently left alive to 4p, and I flat out panicked and thought town was manipulating me. I don't do well because I put too much pressure on myself to get it right, and usually I'm the one most trusted when I am alive. And then I do worse when people do suspect me because that's added pressure to try to both get it right and prove I should be trusted and then on both fronts I think the game is going to be lost and it's all my fault and I feel bad and it just gets really overwhelming. And it doesn't help when I don't trust really anyone left alive. I hate being scum, but man endgame is so much easier as scum.
Actually I do trust dota, I feel the most calm about dota. It's probably because of the IC thing though. Yeah I wish he'd have taken the empowerment from Cyan and I wish he'd have activated it sooner, but he's probably just town because anyway I look at it I can't see what his endgame plan is left here unless there is an extra scum we aren't accounting for. And the plan he came up with doesn't seem to terrible, and while I haven't mapped out the numbers yet I can understand someone thinking it's too risky.
And it's frustrating dealing with axelrod who might be town and is playing this way. He should be the one person here who has serious doubts about me being scum and he's like lolnope. It's super disingenuous to say that my play is anything like the way I played in the last scum game he saw me in. I was a godfather who got investigated night one because my play was so terrible and that let me live to end game. He made the remark at end game that he would be disappointed if I were scum and playing like I was because I literally did nothing for the majority of the game. I would like to think I'd play better than I did last game if I drew scum as part of the reason I sucked so terribly was because it was the end of a serious scum streak, but quite frankly I'm not far enough removed from my scum streak that it still wouldn't be a misery.
His play here doesn't look like the endgame he played there at all. He was insightful about people's play and he considered all of those who were left. Here he's making stuff up as far as I can tell. Nope there's no difference between this game and that game; I'm playing the same way which is a lolnope. I'm somehow a demonstrable liar, even though I haven't lied about anything. I'm trying to keep the neutral alive, when yes I've said I feel bad about killing him, and considered a potential plan to confirm two people as town, which hey maybe is a bad idea but there's no reason not to at least consider and talk about all possible options. I'd like to find a way where both town and Cythare could win. That would be awesome as far as I'm concerned.
Anyway gotta get ready for work.
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Seppel was a liar, Tammy, remember? That's your slot, so you kind of have to live with it.
I am really not making a meta argument, Tammy. I hate meta arguments. You are the one who is making a meta defense, and that's...not going to be very effective. At least for me. When I say you seem to be much the same this game as the last one, I'm mainly going be the feeling which is that you haven't had all that much of an impact. You've kind of just been there this game. And the other one as well. This is not an insult or a criticism. I haven't done jack squat this game for a month.
That said, I also said I haven't reviewed anyone this game, at least recently, so it's possible my memory of your impact is incorrect and you've actually been really involved and active and scum-hunting and I have not noticed. Possible.
This would not actually change anything, however, as far as the process of elimination argument I am making goes. And this idea that - even if you were playing totally different from last game to this - it means you aren't scum, is just bad. I would be the worst player in the world if I were to say, gee, Tammy isn't playing like she did in 3 little-pigs (when she got Cop cleared very early and coasted to victory), so I guess she's not scum this time?
Cyan was another person who was on the process of elimination bubble, and he was just really, really wrong this game. He was WF's biggest defender for awful reasons and trying to give him another shot. He also, not incidentally, kept calling me scum. He thirdly, and this is kind of incidentally, seemed pretty miserable and I thought at least I'll be putting him out of his misery if nothing else. So when WF flipped scum that just seemed like the best way to go.
Nope, couldn't answer it. I've looked for an Azrael modded game and am I blind or something? I don't see one.
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I, however, have no ******* clue who is the last Scum or where to go from here.
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Give DoTA one more empower
Empower: DoTA
Someone gives me one more. I only need 1 more to activate the 2-empower vig. shot. This will give the Mafia an extra NK the following night but that will be meaningless at this point.
Lynch Cyth. And it's Cyth because (1) face it, he could easily just be scum with what he's claimed, but (2) even if he's not, he's a super danger. He could potentially re-direct my shot tonight in a bad way, and if he were alive tomorrow with the last scum, well, they could just win right then, yes? Or maybe Cyth. daykills again? Cyth. can say he'd choose to win with the Town in that scenario, and maybe he would? But it that a risk we even need to take? And if not, why do it?
I have zero of these feelings of guilt about lynching Cyth and depriving him of the "win" that both Tammy and Manders seem to be expressing. I can't imagine if I was in Cyth's position that I'd expect different either.
Lynch Cyth, then tonight, DoTA is confirming himself, and I'm shooting Tammy/Manders. Tomorrow, if we assume the scum either kill (1) DoTA because he's confirmed Town, or (2) me because I have a gun, that leaves Me/DoTA, Meg. and the other one of Tammy/Manders. If you accept that Meg. is Town, then that's a win. Unless you still think I could be the last scum.
Amusingly, it seems like there's still the possibility of a "draw" in this 3-man end game even if we mislynch, if I get two more Empower tomorrow, I could shoot again, and the presumed last scum (which I guess would have to be Meg at that point?) and I would kill each other. This is why I might just be eating the bullet myself tonight, I think. Or the scum could refrain from Night-killing at all to have a 4 person End game, but I don't think that really works out any better for them if DoTA is mod-confirmed.
Someone tell me what I'm missing.
Dota: I still don't understand how your Daykill ability works.
Manders, do you have any abilities other than your 5-empower?
Axelrod I know: (-2): Vig shot, scum get an extra kill; (-4): Vig shot
Tammy: You just move passives?
Cythare: We've covered you plenty.
As for me I literally don't have a role PM.
Well, yes, if the scum were to choose to skip killing to try and leave more people alive, then it would be 4 tomorrow. I mentioned that possibility. But given it leave DoTA alive as presumably Mod. confirmed I don't think it changes anything - this is unless you think I'm somehow the last scum, which I also mentioned.
Which part? I feel like I've got the simplest role out of everyone's. That part?
My 2 power is to transfer passives for that night.
N1 seppel moved iso's passives to dv
N2 seppel removed manders passives, which removed the doc protect dv had given her
N3 I moved dota' passives to cythare
N4 I moved cyan's passives to cythare
Why have you read manders as town since your first post again? Oh right azrael wouldn't give her scum and she seemed excited to play.
My apologies to the very thorough way you're Redding people. And I wouldn't be surprised that you don't remember anything I've gone, I doubt you've actually read anything I've said. The only time you mentioned me was to answer a question i asked about your role and to say you preferred lynching me today. You say that cyan was a suspect of yours yesterday so why didn't you talk to me when I was trying to get someone to comment or talk to me about my cyan suspicions?
And you've been playing a bit too long to go durr hurr durr hurr seppel claimed neutral lynch all liars. That is probably the most superficial reasoning you could throw out there. But you keep being you!