You. What you said about Bur doesn't jive with your own stance on the massclaim order earlier.
And AnaklusmoS. His opening post felt too nice; the fake kind of nice. But I don't have any meta to compare with, so that's a weaker read.
I think you should really continue that massclaim now.
You. What you said about Bur doesn't jive with your own stance on the massclaim order earlier.
And AnaklusmoS. His opening post felt too nice; the fake kind of nice. But I don't have any meta to compare with, so that's a weaker read.
I think you should really continue that massclaim now.
Please explain your first read, how things "didn't jive" for you?
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see what I mean? You people are trying to jump the gun with this massclaim when nobody has any idea what the agreed order is or what the information we're claiming is. D_V saying we agreed to Rhand's claim method when... we didn't and the only person already to claim already full claimed. Rhand saying TCM is next when... we've been doing random claim order based on Dice rolling and I just happened to be both the next person randomly and the person Dota claimed to have tracked. TCM claiming Rhand is next when [see above].
And you wonder why I was claim stalling? You vote me for it? Ridiculous.
So, do whatever you want with the claims, I don't care at this point since nobody has their ***** together. I was really, really trying not to be a raging ******** in mafia anymore but for D_V of all ******* people to call me "dumb" is about to make me pop a blood vessel. Seriously. Like, **** you dude.
I accept my incoming flaming warning. Proph, buddy, do the deed.
...
@Rhand: Show me where I was against random ordering of claims. Quote the post please. Here, I'll help you.
And if you can't figure out why I targeted TCM... read the signup thread.
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ok now that we're out of RVS I'd like to put forward that we should be mass claiming our results every Day, including Today. I feel like this game is just straight broken in favor of the town if we do this properly. it isn't dethy and we should be able to identify the drunken trackers by Tomorrow. plus the delayed deaths mean that we can kind of cheat on the lynch math.
deciding the order for the claims is the most important thing of course, and should happen after we get some wagons going.
@Bur: When we have results, and know what each player's role is. I don't see a reason to ever bother with an RVS. I agree with mass claiming day one, and I believe we should do it in a random order. I want everyone to agree before determining that.
Excuse me? Massclaiming in random order?
Why do think that randomizing the massclaim order instead of just like... forcing scummy people claim first and towny people claim last?
I would be amenable to random order but only if we can do it in a way that can't be altered by anybody (so, me going to random.org and then posting a list and telling you it's random wouldn't be ok).
I don't mind alphabetical since I get to go later in the order (brb changing my name to zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzmegiddo), but the fact that this can be gamed is a no-go for me.
either we choose the order based on scumminess or we go fully random. and we choose a new order each game Day.
we aren't mass claiming NOW, but later after we've actually, you know, played mafia. probably midway to deadline since we will need time to digest and analyze the claims.
@tcm: was bur against random order? That's definitely eyebrow-raising.
The relevant posts in order.
You clearly agree with Bur that random order is not the best way to go.
But when TCM tells you that Bur was against it, it's suddenly eyebrow-raising.
It's important to note the progression of my thoughts there.
At first I wanted an ordered claim. Then (after the subject of random claims was raised), I said I would be ok with it, but I still preferred to ordered claim (noting that we'd have to adhere to conditions to ensure true randomness). Then, finally, I said "either we choose the order based on scumminess or we go fully random."
Ok, so let's break that down into pieces.
"I want an ordered claim"
Is this me being against a random claim? No. This is me suggesting what I thought we should do.
"I still preferred an ordered claim, but was OK with a random claim with conditions to insure randomness"
Is this me being against a random claim? No. This is me continuing to advocated my preferred method while also trying to help set up the random claim, which (in the dark D1) is the more likely method to be implemented.
"Either we choose the order or we go fully random"
Is this me being against a random claim? No. This is me saying that I would be fine with one of two options, with no mention as to the preference between them.
Ok, so you didn't answer my request, which was to show me where I was against a random claim.
But that's not what you said. Let's look at your original post:
@Megiddo: you said Bur not wanting the random claim order is eyebrow raising while you said before that you preferred a chosen order as well.
So you weren't even really saying I was against a claim, just that I preferred a chosen order as well.
This is fine, and technically correct as I originally was in favor of a random claim (a viewpoint that evolved over time as demonstrated above). However, I never fought against a random claim. I fought for what I wanted.
Do you see the distinction here? Bur was supposedly against a random claim. This raised my eyebrow because there is no reason to be against a random claim in a game like this.
blah this is getting too long
point is, bur actively expressed skepticism of the random massclaim (and remember, my response was to TCM's post saying that Bur was "against" a random claim). I never did. Seeing somebody actively against a random massclaim raised my eyebrow, because even if you had a preference for some other ordering, you really have no good reason to be against a random claim.
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@Dota: how does not claiming toDay help that plan? Isn't it better to have the poisoned player's results in thread too?
I figured that with an agreed upon tracking order going into day 2, losing one players results from day 1 wouldn't impact it too much as we have seen there is a lot of overlap and we might have been able to piece together the poisoned players results based on who targeted them and who targeted the same player as them. All irrelevant now as we are going ahead with the claims, but I didn't want to leave the question hanging.
You're deliberately stalling the game when we have a very tight deadline for no better reason than "because I feel like it". So I ask again, how is that a town mentality?
@Bur Rhand was one of the people I had no experience with, so I tracked them. Why Rhand out of that group? Random chance mostly, but I did glance around and it looked like Rhand is an experienced player so figured it would be good.
Megs feels town to me, that just is a bit more argumentative. It doesn't make sense to me that a scum-Megs would get so frustrated at D_V for a vote, it felt much more like a bunch of frustration being let out with that vote being the catalyst. If he was scum, he really would have nothing to be frustrated about, as he wouldn't care that the massclaim was being discussed and changed over and over. Also his explanation of his thought progression felt genuine.
@dota I mean yes I'm doing it to be a jerk because I felt like there were more productive things to do with our time than just claim immediately, as I feel the N0 claim will yield basically zero info until Tomorrow after we have the presumed first flip.
I'm looking forward to seeing your analysis of the claims when they are all out there however!
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Bur/Rhand are looking worse for playing passive. Like, why does the reason for tracking matter? This was an a open set-up with everyone knowing they were tracker or tracker. It wouldn't surprise me if there were people who chose their target before the game even started. Rhand however still feels like he is trying to solve the game, where as Bur is feeling really passive.
Before anyone else posts, I want the next two posts to be Bur+DV results right now. I want to see something. NO OTHER POSTS PLEASE
So straight off the bat we have 3 players whose targets don't match up, so either we have 1 mafia lying and 1 telling the truth, both mafia lying and 1 drunk got the correct result. I think I have found a flaw in GJ's claim order(unless it was intentional), by having the target of the previous player go next instead of running it entirely randomly, the untargeted players get to go last and tailor their claims accordingly.
Observations:
1. No one targeted me. I was first to claim, and with no other information in the thread it would have been way too risky to have lied about my target/result(not that I would have anyway.)
2. Both Bur and D_V claim to have targeted GJ, both were untargeted(so this can't be confirmed), and both got the wrong results. What are the odds though of both being scum and not targeted.
3. Megiddo also targeted GJ and got the wrong result(interesting that all 3 our "drunks" targeted GJ). I think the odds of him being drunk are higher than him being scum though.
4. The Anaklusmos<->Rhand cross-target would have stood out to me if we didn't have 3 claimed drunks, although with only 7 players in the game it is entirely possible that 2 players would target one another.
Between our three drunks, one of them has to be lying, but I can't figure out the motivation for why.
Would scum!Bur fakeclaim drunk to appear confirmed town?
Would Death's_Vampire do the same knowing we still had an outstanding claim?
Would scum!Megiddo assume that GJ would target Rhand?
Would a scumteam of Bur and D_V both claim drunk if one of the actual drunks got lucky and randomed into the correct target?
I'm looking forward to seeing your analysis of the claims when they are all out there however!
2. Both Bur and D_V claim to have targeted GJ, both were untargeted(so this can't be confirmed), and both got the wrong results. What are the odds though of both being scum drunk and not targeted.
drunks can't receive the actual target: it's a player other than the actual person the target targets.
would be bastardry otherwise imo.
important info you omitted: claim order. I have a list on my computer but I'm in the bathroom on my phone... I can post it later but if somebody else would be so kind.
I have thoughts but First:
1) Bur, why are you bothering with claim rationale? time to spill it. also who's scum?
2) tcm you told me you would tell me something after the claims. the claims are out. what were you going to tell me?
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Bastardly indeed, rereading the drunk trackers they can potentially receive the correct result. The only one they can't get is that player tracking themself.
I guess I can spend brainpower analyzing our obvious contradictory situation...
thanks for that point-out DV. good observation. the question is whether it makes sense?
if tcm lied (and is therefore scum), we have to look at what that means.
1. you me and Bur are all town. we all saw tcm target somebody different, so at most one of us is a true tracker. the other two must necessarily be drunk.
in this scenario we have to evaluate the fact that TCM claimed a result that is corroborated by another, namely that he targeted within the anak/Rhand duo.
2. one of you or Bur is scum with TCM. from your perspective it's possible that I could be scum, but you can do that analysis if you want to waste your time.
now I'm not sure that this helps. why does scum lie about their target? because they committed the NK or because they need to cover for the scum that did.
I'm not sure it's possible to account for that possibility in analysis, but I'd like you guys to look at this too. the possibilities are:
one of (Bur, dv) is scum with tcm and is lying
one of (Bur,dv) is scum with tcm and is telling the truth.
actually. I don't think the buddy truthfully claims, do they? this line of thought implies that tcm committed the poisoning and the buddy would be implicating him.
hm. more later. IT was controlling my computer, but now I have to do work again.
also we played together in magical girl mafia many moons ago on the same scum team iirc.
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How do you not follow that post with a vote if you really thought I was lying? In addition, how do you explain me being correct about anak's target?
I'll post my analysis when I get off work, but between this and his meg interaction, I like this route.
You guessed got lucky?
He is your scum buddy?
Look one of the 4 people with "Correct" targets one of them has to be lying, or a very lucky drunk town, or they targeted a mafia member who is lying about who he targeted.
I'm not voting you, because you can wait till tomorrow. If I die then the town lynches you. Its that simple, why waste a lynch today, when it can be confirmed tomorrow?
who do you think is scum, Rhand?
And AnaklusmoS. His opening post felt too nice; the fake kind of nice. But I don't have any meta to compare with, so that's a weaker read.
I think you should really continue that massclaim now.
Vote: Megiddo
How is that a town mentality?
With simply Reads Megs is my vote for our lynch for the day.
Vote Count
(4 to lynch)
Anaklusmos - 1 (Bur)
Megiddo - 3 (Gentleman Johnny, Rhand, DoTArchon)
DoTArchon - 1 (Megiddo)
No Lynch - 1 (Deaths_Vampire)
NV: Anaklusmos
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I targeted TCM, who targeted Rhand.
Continue with random claim order please.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Are you dumb?
Are you even reading this game?
We were going to claim targets then who they targeted.
@Megiddo: you said Bur not wanting the random claim order is eyebrow raising while you said before that you preferred a chosen order as well.
Also, you forgot to claim why you chose TCM.
And you wonder why I was claim stalling? You vote me for it? Ridiculous.
So, do whatever you want with the claims, I don't care at this point since nobody has their ***** together. I was really, really trying not to be a raging ******** in mafia anymore but for D_V of all ******* people to call me "dumb" is about to make me pop a blood vessel. Seriously. Like, **** you dude.
I accept my incoming flaming warning. Proph, buddy, do the deed.
...
@Rhand: Show me where I was against random ordering of claims. Quote the post please. Here, I'll help you.
And if you can't figure out why I targeted TCM... read the signup thread.
I targeted anak, he targeted rhand.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Will post more later currently returning home from road trip.
@Megs: Please point it to me where exactly in the sign-up thread does it tell why you targeted TCM?
Seriously you even say this isn't a good idea, but I going to do this anyways. Grow up.
Also who is TCM?
i was kind of hoping that everyone would think about the targeting and target the one below him on the playerlist. Alas
@Megs: srsly?
The relevant posts in order.
You clearly agree with Bur that random order is not the best way to go.
But when TCM tells you that Bur was against it, it's suddenly eyebrow-raising.
At first I wanted an ordered claim. Then (after the subject of random claims was raised), I said I would be ok with it, but I still preferred to ordered claim (noting that we'd have to adhere to conditions to ensure true randomness). Then, finally, I said "either we choose the order based on scumminess or we go fully random."
Ok, so let's break that down into pieces.
"I want an ordered claim"
Is this me being against a random claim? No. This is me suggesting what I thought we should do.
"I still preferred an ordered claim, but was OK with a random claim with conditions to insure randomness"
Is this me being against a random claim? No. This is me continuing to advocated my preferred method while also trying to help set up the random claim, which (in the dark D1) is the more likely method to be implemented.
"Either we choose the order or we go fully random"
Is this me being against a random claim? No. This is me saying that I would be fine with one of two options, with no mention as to the preference between them.
Ok, so you didn't answer my request, which was to show me where I was against a random claim.
But that's not what you said. Let's look at your original post:
So you weren't even really saying I was against a claim, just that I preferred a chosen order as well.
This is fine, and technically correct as I originally was in favor of a random claim (a viewpoint that evolved over time as demonstrated above). However, I never fought against a random claim. I fought for what I wanted.
Do you see the distinction here? Bur was supposedly against a random claim. This raised my eyebrow because there is no reason to be against a random claim in a game like this.
blah this is getting too long
point is, bur actively expressed skepticism of the random massclaim (and remember, my response was to TCM's post saying that Bur was "against" a random claim). I never did. Seeing somebody actively against a random massclaim raised my eyebrow, because even if you had a preference for some other ordering, you really have no good reason to be against a random claim.
@GJ, Rhand, Anak: Your reasons for picking your target?
unvote
@Bur: I did give my reasoning.
You're deliberately stalling the game when we have a very tight deadline for no better reason than "because I feel like it". So I ask again, how is that a town mentality?
Megs feels town to me, that just is a bit more argumentative. It doesn't make sense to me that a scum-Megs would get so frustrated at D_V for a vote, it felt much more like a bunch of frustration being let out with that vote being the catalyst. If he was scum, he really would have nothing to be frustrated about, as he wouldn't care that the massclaim was being discussed and changed over and over. Also his explanation of his thought progression felt genuine.
unvote, vote Bur
I'm looking forward to seeing your analysis of the claims when they are all out there however!
Bur/Rhand are looking worse for playing passive. Like, why does the reason for tracking matter? This was an a open set-up with everyone knowing they were tracker or tracker. It wouldn't surprise me if there were people who chose their target before the game even started. Rhand however still feels like he is trying to solve the game, where as Bur is feeling really passive.
Before anyone else posts, I want the next two posts to be Bur+DV results right now. I want to see something. NO OTHER POSTS PLEASE
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I was told that he targeted me.
I targeted him since he's one of the best players in this game and I have no confidence that I'd be able to read him (unlike Rhand).
@D_V: Your reasoning please?
I'll tell you why this matters AFTER everyone has told their reasons.
Luwl what reasoning? I literally picked someone from the list at random.
Player->Targeted->Result->Correct
Anaklusmos->Rhand->Anaklusmos->Y
Bur->Gentleman Johnny->Megiddo->N
Death's_Vampire->Gentleman Johnny->Death's_Vampire->N
DoTArchon->Megiddo->Gentleman Johnny->Y
Gentleman Johnny->Anaklusmos->Rhand->Y
Megiddo->Gentleman Johnny->Rhand->N
Rhand->Anaklusmos->Rhand->Y
Untargeted Players
Bur
Death's_Vampire
DoTArchon
So straight off the bat we have 3 players whose targets don't match up, so either we have 1 mafia lying and 1 telling the truth, both mafia lying and 1 drunk got the correct result. I think I have found a flaw in GJ's claim order(unless it was intentional), by having the target of the previous player go next instead of running it entirely randomly, the untargeted players get to go last and tailor their claims accordingly.
Observations:
1. No one targeted me. I was first to claim, and with no other information in the thread it would have been way too risky to have lied about my target/result(not that I would have anyway.)
2. Both Bur and D_V claim to have targeted GJ, both were untargeted(so this can't be confirmed), and both got the wrong results. What are the odds though of both being scum and not targeted.
3. Megiddo also targeted GJ and got the wrong result(interesting that all 3 our "drunks" targeted GJ). I think the odds of him being drunk are higher than him being scum though.
4. The Anaklusmos<->Rhand cross-target would have stood out to me if we didn't have 3 claimed drunks, although with only 7 players in the game it is entirely possible that 2 players would target one another.
Between our three drunks, one of them has to be lying, but I can't figure out the motivation for why.
Would scum!Bur fakeclaim drunk to appear confirmed town?
Would Death's_Vampire do the same knowing we still had an outstanding claim?
Would scum!Megiddo assume that GJ would target Rhand?
Would a scumteam of Bur and D_V both claim drunk if one of the actual drunks got lucky and randomed into the correct target?
would be bastardry otherwise imo.
important info you omitted: claim order. I have a list on my computer but I'm in the bathroom on my phone... I can post it later but if somebody else would be so kind.
I have thoughts but First:
1) Bur, why are you bothering with claim rationale? time to spill it. also who's scum?
2) tcm you told me you would tell me something after the claims. the claims are out. what were you going to tell me?
well in that case I don't care. you guys analyze the claims.
I think Megs, and TCM. I didn't realize GJ was TCM though till a day ago or so. This would have been 5+ years ago so I to me its not really relevant.
@Dot, You are forgetting the thing that I have started to believe that Gentleman Johnny is lying about who he targeted.
thanks for that point-out DV. good observation. the question is whether it makes sense?
if tcm lied (and is therefore scum), we have to look at what that means.
1. you me and Bur are all town. we all saw tcm target somebody different, so at most one of us is a true tracker. the other two must necessarily be drunk.
in this scenario we have to evaluate the fact that TCM claimed a result that is corroborated by another, namely that he targeted within the anak/Rhand duo.
2. one of you or Bur is scum with TCM. from your perspective it's possible that I could be scum, but you can do that analysis if you want to waste your time.
now I'm not sure that this helps. why does scum lie about their target? because they committed the NK or because they need to cover for the scum that did.
I'm not sure it's possible to account for that possibility in analysis, but I'd like you guys to look at this too. the possibilities are:
one of (Bur, dv) is scum with tcm and is lying
one of (Bur,dv) is scum with tcm and is telling the truth.
actually. I don't think the buddy truthfully claims, do they? this line of thought implies that tcm committed the poisoning and the buddy would be implicating him.
hm. more later. IT was controlling my computer, but now I have to do work again.
also we played together in magical girl mafia many moons ago on the same scum team iirc.
How do you not follow that post with a vote if you really thought I was lying? In addition, how do you explain me being correct about anak's target?
I'll post my analysis when I get off work, but between this and his meg interaction, I like this route.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
You guessed got lucky?
He is your scum buddy?
Look one of the 4 people with "Correct" targets one of them has to be lying, or a very lucky drunk town, or they targeted a mafia member who is lying about who he targeted.
I'm not voting you, because you can wait till tomorrow. If I die then the town lynches you. Its that simple, why waste a lynch today, when it can be confirmed tomorrow?
The only person you even mentioned being ok to lynch was megs. Why is your vote not on him then?
The GJ way path to no lynching: