Okay, based on your interceding posts, it's clear you and I have fundamental disagreements about mafia theory that aren't going to get wrapped up here.
Point is, I think you're totally wrong, and you're using your governor power to get your way. If you really think you're right, you should stop threatening to governor and let the town prove they agree or disagree with your arguments on their own merits, instead of threatening to, as I said before, take the ball and go home.
Put it another way: what I want, right now, is for you to promise not to use your power, at all, for the rest of the game. Until you agree to that, I don't think we have anything to talk about. Because I'm not going to try to convince someone who refuses to be convinced because he thinks he has all the answers and has the power to force his opinions upon others.
Xyre, there's no way you should be so confident about EtR. I'm not positive he's scum, but I certainly don't have great feelings about him.
Am I understanding that both you and Nacho could get behind GJ though? That would be peachy right now.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Well, would you agree that's a weird interaction for the claimed role?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
(Obviously, nobody spotted this at the time, hindsight is 20/20, etc. But the point I'm making is it's a very clever insight from EtR, and not one I'd expect scum to focus on. So +town points to him.)
The rest falls yet again under this two umbrellas of (a) you're holding him to a ridiculously high standard of insightfulness and (b) you're missing his point (the tordeck thing; EtR's entirely correct that IMAB's logic is really shifty, jumping from "I've done this as scum" to "nobody would do this as town"), with the above "scum-slip" point mixed in as (c).
Xyre's posts getting worse and more desperate with time. I love the whole discreditng his own argument in the same post. And by love I mean it's like watching a cat get it's head stuck in a jar. I'm not going use the "F" word but like, it's starting to look that way.
Although that is a good point that I never mentioned Necarg's post 58. But that's because I didn't see it.
Hey guys. I noticed that Xyre, has done everything to try and paint me as scum without actually criticizing my analysis of the game. He's shouted from the rooftops about how EtR makes me scum, he's shouted from the rooftops that tomsloger's lies make me scum, he's shouted from the rooftops that the sky being blue makes me scum. Basically Xyre apppears to be doing a lot of talking around me but not to me, which is when his arguments tend to get destroyed.
@Nachomamma8
I know I'm calling Xyre scum in almost every post, but the person you need to actually not govern is Dota. Don't forget he lied about being paranoid about you. He initially said he did it to protect you from nightkills. If his buddy wasn't running interference on his behalf his contradictary reasons for his claim and night actions would have gotten him lynched ages ago.
Xyre's eventually gonna have to get killed at night. I've been pretty open about how both teams are completely incompetent with their nightkills. Eventually someone's gonna kill Xyre anyway, although given how incompetent both teams are, it'll probably be mafia that does it because why the **** not.
Well, would you agree that's a weird interaction for the claimed role?
Do you mean do I believe he has that role? No, I do not. Obviously, Iso's interpretation is word of mod, so whether or not it's a weird interaction is beside the point.
B) (at the moment) He is adamant about not using our werewolf killing device on IABM.
C) He claims TS (me) is mafia.
D) Why do I want us to "townclear" IABM with the ww killing device?
If I was mafia I would want as few towncleared players as possible. Adding IABM to "townclear" helps town. Your plan to blindly lynch him is reckless.
I like Nacho's point about people that don't mind their scum reads being governed. Makes tons of sense. Several of us are fighting tooth and nail to get our reads lynched and others are "going with the flow". Xyre is playing "punchdrunk" and somehow continues to tunnel me as scum when I've been completely town cleared.
Xyre, I'm untouchable. Get over it. They'll have to kill me during the night but I'd consider it quite the honor to eat a nightkill as vanilla town right now.
@GJ-I want to vote for you. But I have a nagging question. Why did you want to no vote on day one? It seems so strange in retrospect. I guess it was also weird at the time you posted it. As I said before, your play seems cautious and I don't think you've pushed your reads very hard. It feels like you are going to flip scum.
Point blank-Who are your scum reads. I don't care who you think is town. Give me the people you are willing to lynch right now. Can you clarify whose likely teammates?
(my top three is Dota > IMAB > Etr). I was going to hold off on this due to wanting to see TS's case, and a strong feeling that unless my last point sticks, Nacho will likely pardon Dota over lynching him.
For your scum question. Assuming there is two, or IMAB checks out, the last scum is likely in the Antsy/Seppel/TS pile. Dota is likely partners with Etr, and IMAB would likely be either town or werewolf. I don't think if he is lying, he claims he still has the seer shot going into night 2 as a member of the mafia. All that does is make him a more tempting target for cross kill. In addition, I can't see IMAB being mafia with Dota, due to how hard IMAB is going for him at this stage. COunting on Nacho keeping his word about pardoning a lynched dota doesn't seem like a great idea at this stage.
I thought I answered your first question though. 18 player game, two scum teams, and I am not a full doctor.. Elite is a step up, but only if I know what I am doing. I already figured there was either cop/cop varient + either a watcher or a tracker. I figured a skeptical scum team might kill me or roleblock me (or both), and hopefully an investigative role would have caught them. It should have been obvious that even if I was scum just trying to gambit, the other team would not have known that, and would have still resulted in someone getting caught. I believed there was enough power, and sending both teams in blind to mean that crosskill chances were higher, as were ability uses. I dropped this almost immediately after IMAB's claim, as his ability pointed to perhaps a weaker town, and perhaps a better opportunity for my own ability. One of the other biggest reasons for no-lynching is to keep information from going out, so with two almost back to back claims, another point against that plan.
@Etr: Why didn't you claim watcher in response to his claim? IMAB was an already claimed double shot cop variant, did you really think all three of you existed? What about after Tom's revelation?
I am not scumreading EtR because of his reaction to my play. I am scumreading Johnny and Anty because of their reactions to my play.
My response to your EtR case was a response to your EtR case, not a case of my own. My scumread on EtR comes in several pieces: 1) town watcher is extremely overpowered in a game with two scumteams (possibility to catch two scum in a night is nasty), 2) Mafia team is overly weak if there are protective roles, 3) Watcher on the scumteam would explain why Chris felt comfortable claiming tracker. The behavioral piece is due mostly to be underwhelmed, sure, but the points I found problematic are mostly elsewhere.
B) (at the moment) He is adamant about not using our werewolf killing device on IABM.
This!!! So much this. If he "knows" I'm WW why waste a lynch when I'm going to be killed tonight? And he's townreading the person who screwed up the notion of using that action on me last night, despite the fact that DoTA lied and contradicted his motivations for doing so? And then this...
Imab, I know you read my post where I admitted I'm actually a roleblocker. I explained there and several times since why I targeted Nachos and why I originally said it was to save him from the night kill. I never contradicted myself, I explained my motivations behind my actions. If you arent willing to believe me, then so be it. But constantly bringing up that same post when I have explained it repeatedly is getting old.
Well, would you agree that's a weird interaction for the claimed role?
Do you mean do I believe he has that role? No, I do not. Obviously, Iso's interpretation is word of mod, so whether or not it's a weird interaction is beside the point.
Wait, so, you agree he's lying?
Can we just do this then and worry about other stuff later?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
It makes zero sense for me to be even considered today. Unless I missed it, no one pr had claimed role block. It means that if dota is actually town, neither team has a role block. Not only will I be killed tonight, but I force both teams to go after players that further narrow down PoE, or chance trading 1 for 1.
It makes zero sense for me to be even considered today. Unless I missed it, no one pr had claimed role block. It means that if dota is actually town, neither team has a role block. Not only will I be killed tonight, but I force both teams to go after players that further narrow down PoE, or chance trading 1 for 1.
Shouldn't it be one or the other - if you were telling the truth. Not both.
Also, what are we supposed to do when you show up alive tomorrow and say (1) Derp, I guess I BG'd the wrong guy, or (2) Hey, I was RB'ed, we should now lynch DOTA?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Well, would you agree that's a weird interaction for the claimed role?
Do you mean do I believe he has that role? No, I do not. Obviously, Iso's interpretation is word of mod, so whether or not it's a weird interaction is beside the point.
Wait, so, you agree he's lying?
Can we just do this then and worry about other stuff later?
I am not scumreading EtR because of his reaction to my play. I am scumreading Johnny and Anty because of their reactions to my play.
My response to your EtR case was a response to your EtR case, not a case of my own. My scumread on EtR comes in several pieces: 1) town watcher is extremely overpowered in a game with two scumteams (possibility to catch two scum in a night is nasty), 2) Mafia team is overly weak if there are protective roles, 3) Watcher on the scumteam would explain why Chris felt comfortable claiming tracker. The behavioral piece is due mostly to be underwhelmed, sure, but the points I found problematic are mostly elsewhere.
Potayto, tomahto. Case, response.
In short:
1) Not really; the only way that corner case could occur is if both scum teams shoot the same person and the watcher watched their target. Even assuming a limited pool of viable targets for kills, the odds of that happening are quite low. Otherwise, town watcher is generally more powerful than in a regular game, but that's only a natural product of the town being weakened faster by facing two kills for every lynch (because cross-kills are unreliable and the scum groups have a limited incentive to work together). So all told, it's about a wash. Also, a scum watcher would be underpowered, because the only credible use for the ability would be to pretend to be town; it doesn't really help the mafia affirmatively.
2) That assumes there aren't any abilities we don't know about. A d the mafia's weakness in killing trades off against the fact that they have to be lynched, which I also think is a wash.
3) Not really. First, that only makes sense if SC is a WW, which doesn't seem right to me anyway. Second, it's not like watchers and trackers are interchangeable; the unpredictable results of the former make it hard to pretend to be the latter, because you'll have to claim to have "tracked" someone who may not have been worth tracking.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It makes zero sense for me to be even considered today. Unless I missed it, no one pr had claimed role block. It means that if dota is actually town, neither team has a role block. Not only will I be killed tonight, but I force both teams to go after players that further narrow down PoE, or chance trading 1 for 1.
Shouldn't it be one or the other - if you were telling the truth. Not both.
Also, what are we supposed to do when you show up alive tomorrow and say (1) Derp, I guess I BG'd the wrong guy, or (2) Hey, I was RB'ed, we should now lynch DOTA?
You are correct. My point was that if I stay alive for WIFOM reasons, both teams will still likely target non-obvious townies. Or, I die. As far as claiming RB tomorrow, that would get easily countered tonight.
I die tonight, or I die tomorrow. But my death either way narrows PoE by a lot.
If I don't make it back tomorrow, hopefully IMAB won't make it back, either. Remember what I've said about TS and GJ's relationship, and why Antny is likely scum, too.
Something about the way he is using Nacho's Govern as his excuse, as opposed to saying anything about GJ himself.
Needs to be checked for DOTA's prior opinions/statements about GJ.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I'm happy lynching Imab or TS, Antny is a distant 3rd.
2 of my top 3 suspects are on Nachos "to be pardoned" list, and the third has been scumread by a number of people but has no wagon. Starting a wagon now and deflecting from GJ is not a good idea IMO, especially as we are approaching deadline. Before his flurry of activity I had him as a neutral read, since then he has tunnelled quite hard on me, not responded to some of the questions I asked him, and despite his disagreement with Xyre over my alignment, recently made the #IstandwithXyre
Which questions did I not respond to? On top of that, disagreeing with Xyre doesn't actually mean I think he is scum. Under that logic, one of Nacho/Xyre is scum.
@GJ-I want to vote for you. But I have a nagging question. Why did you want to no vote on day one? It seems so strange in retrospect. I guess it was also weird at the time you posted it. As I said before, your play seems cautious and I don't think you've pushed your reads very hard. It feels like you are going to flip scum.
Point blank-Who are your scum reads. I don't care who you think is town. Give me the people you are willing to lynch right now. Can you clarify whose likely teammates?
(my top three is Dota > IMAB > Etr). I was going to hold off on this due to wanting to see TS's case, and a strong feeling that unless my last point sticks, Nacho will likely pardon Dota over lynching him.
For your scum question. Assuming there is two, or IMAB checks out, the last scum is likely in the Antsy/Seppel/TS pile. Dota is likely partners with Etr, and IMAB would likely be either town or werewolf. I don't think if he is lying, he claims he still has the seer shot going into night 2 as a member of the mafia. All that does is make him a more tempting target for cross kill. In addition, I can't see IMAB being mafia with Dota, due to how hard IMAB is going for him at this stage. COunting on Nacho keeping his word about pardoning a lynched dota doesn't seem like a great idea at this stage.
I thought I answered your first question though. 18 player game, two scum teams, and I am not a full doctor.. Elite is a step up, but only if I know what I am doing. I already figured there was either cop/cop varient + either a watcher or a tracker. I figured a skeptical scum team might kill me or roleblock me (or both), and hopefully an investigative role would have caught them. It should have been obvious that even if I was scum just trying to gambit, the other team would not have known that, and would have still resulted in someone getting caught. I believed there was enough power, and sending both teams in blind to mean that crosskill chances were higher, as were ability uses. I dropped this almost immediately after IMAB's claim, as his ability pointed to perhaps a weaker town, and perhaps a better opportunity for my own ability. One of the other biggest reasons for no-lynching is to keep information from going out, so with two almost back to back claims, another point against that plan.
VOTE:GJ I dont know how to bold on my mobile phone.
The no lynch was discussed early in the game, and I can't see how the question us relevant to the current wagon on GJ. Is there anything he could have said that would have prevented TS from voting for him? And GJ asks TS about his read on Xyre, which anyone following the game would know since TS has been very vocal about it. Note that TS doesn't answer the question or point out one of the many "Xyre is scum!" posts he's made when he casts his vote.
@Axelrod/Nachos/Xyre: What are your thoughts on this interaction?
Which questions did I not respond to? On top of that, disagreeing with Xyre doesn't actually mean I think he is scum. Under that logic, one of Nacho/Xyre is scum.
Which questions did I not respond to? On top of that, disagreeing with Xyre doesn't actually mean I think he is scum. Under that logic, one of Nacho/Xyre is scum.
I asked you why I'm scum and you ignored it. Probably thought I forgot.
@Gentleman Johnny: Part of your case is based on my interactions with Sir Chris. Knowing that Imab werewolf cleared me, how does that affect your read of me?
Nacho, did you ever answer who you will refuse to lynch?
Quote from Seppel »
The thing that gets me is that Nacho was going to confirm Imab's alignment, and Dota prevented that from happening. It doesn't speak to Imab's alignment, because Dota could just be trying to reduce the number of confirmed townies. But it definitely speaks to Dota's alignment.
Literally this.
Quote from Dota »
When I made the first claim I knew I would have to claim my actual role eventually, so I decided I'd wait until we had everyone's claims so as not to distract the game from completing it first.
Are you saying you knew the second you made your post, you were mistaken?
Yes, and I admitted as much and explained why I did it when I revealed my actual role.
Quote from Xyre »
Either way, it makes no sense to lynch the person who could not be scum without imab also being scum first. Even if you discount everything else I've said in exhaustive defense of Dota, that should be plain as day.
If I reread correctly, Dota is only werewolf cleared. You know from Tom that IMAB is not mafia, how is it not possible that IMAB could be town, and Dota mafia?
Quote from Nacho »
People who are around, engage me about DoT: if he is Mafia Roleblocker, I have no idea why he doesn't just shut up and block me quietly. His thought process about thinking his role was scummy and fakeclaiming jailkeeper instead makes sense based on his experience with mafia so far (newbie setup; roleblockers are always mafia and jailkeepers are always town). I don't believe a derp is impossible. I don't believe he'd immediately switch his claim because too many protective roles, that's dumb.
That would be the optimal play as scum, but as he has shown, Dota is not making the optimal play if he is town either. I don't get how you are double dipping on not making a good town play = town not making a good scum play = town.
I think lynching imab when we can confirm him as town is not a good plan of action at all - we aren't in a significantly better position if we wipe out werewolves today and making a suboptimal move to bank on that possibility is foolish when it's not a fantastic possibility in the first place.
I want to kill EtR.
The process going through my mind right now is that no one else that I recall has claimed being roleblocked. Meaning that, neither team doesn't has one, or isn't hitting town power roles. If dota flips mafia roleblocker, I probably die tomorrow, meaning you all get to narrow down the field even more. I don't think either team will try gambling to kill Xyre/Nacho with me around, so Xyre gets to gift another person.
TappingStones has claimed VT and Wildfire flipped VT. Speaking of TS, did you see my question earlier about terminology use? In your experience, is that phrasing normal?
Because I don't believe Tom decided to lie out of sheer spite, IMAB. The only reason I am leaving you alone is that you will be dealt with one way or the other.
@Gentleman Johnny: Part of your case is based on my interactions with Sir Chris. Knowing that Imab werewolf cleared me, how does that affect your read of me?
Obviously not. You being a werewolf would have just made things much cleaner.
TappingStones has claimed VT and Wildfire flipped VT. Speaking of TS, did you see my question earlier about terminology use? In your experience, is that phrasing normal?
I don't know what you are asking about specifically, and I didn't realize this was addressed to me.
If this is actually going to go through, do me a favor and re-read Dota. Etr should watch you and catch someone or keep you alive for another day.
I think that's the most obvious watch target.
You also had asked why I hadn't claimed when Sir Chris claimed tracker. I had considered it but didn't for a couple reasons. First, it wasn't a direct counter claim so I didn't think it was wise to reveal, especially sinice i belived he was lying. The other reason being the roles can technically exist together in the same game so I didn't think it was worth revealing myself.
If this is actually going to go through, do me a favor and re-read Dota. Etr should watch you and catch someone or keep you alive for another day.
I think that's the most obvious watch target.
You also had asked why I hadn't claimed when Sir Chris claimed tracker. I had considered it but didn't for a couple reasons. First, it wasn't a direct counter claim so I didn't think it was wise to reveal, especially sinice i belived he was lying. The other reason being the roles can technically exist together in the same game so I didn't think it was worth revealing myself.
Jobie also claimed to have a cop ability, and IMAB also had claimed shot of each type. How many other investigative rolls did you think existed? You would have made #4 at the time (not including Tom, and nobody knew Jobie was neutral)
If this is actually going to go through, do me a favor and re-read Dota. Etr should watch you and catch someone or keep you alive for another day.
I think that's the most obvious watch target.
You also had asked why I hadn't claimed when Sir Chris claimed tracker. I had considered it but didn't for a couple reasons. First, it wasn't a direct counter claim so I didn't think it was wise to reveal, especially sinice i belived he was lying. The other reason being the roles can technically exist together in the same game so I didn't think it was worth revealing myself.
Jobie also claimed to have a cop ability, and IMAB also had claimed shot of each type. How many other investigative rolls did you think existed? You would have made #4 at the time (not including Tom, and nobody knew Jobie was neutral)
Well, with 2 scum teams I would anticipate additional investigative roles. At the time I didn't believe Sir Chris or Businessman so...2?
How many protective roles do you think we should have?
I was asked why I think Xyre is scum. I have him as town for pr reasons only but I could be wrong because A-Im not too sure what makess a balanced setup, how many opponents Im dealing with, etc. B-His behavior has been anti-town. His scum case on me is that he doesnt like my meta.
Still haven't recieved an answer from Xyre on why he's giving out ww shots but he's against using them on ww suspects.
I really dont like DOTAs vote on GJ. I'll be casing him presently.
To the other person with a Xyre gift: if GJ flips werewolf, I'd like to take the shot at someone non-IMAB, meaning you should shoot IMAB. If GJ flips Mafia or town, I'll be shooting at IMAB so you may shoot wherever. This should prevent us from doubling up/confirm IMAB as town even in the event I am shot.
I'm happy lynching Imab or TS, Antny is a distant 3rd.
2 of my top 3 suspects are on Nachos "to be pardoned" list, and the third has been scumread by a number of people but has no wagon. Starting a wagon now and deflecting from GJ is not a good idea IMO, especially as we are approaching deadline. Before his flurry of activity I had him as a neutral read, since then he has tunnelled quite hard on me, not responded to some of the questions I asked him, and despite his disagreement with Xyre over my alignment, recently made the #IstandwithXyre
The point I was making was it felt like zionites wsprung up pretty quickly.
While I was searching for one of my own quotes I stumbled upon this quote. Now that we've had a few days, whom do you think is the scum that was opportunistic on Zionite (who is now confirmed town).
@TappingStones
@Xyre
@Nachomamma8
You've got the wrong man!
Do you feel that's the most productive/optimal thing to do toDay?
If the consensus is that Tom is the scummiest player then he should be the lynch. But if people want to lynch someone else because "oh well he'll get governored" then that would make me believe that some people are more interested in getting lynches through instead of lynching their scum reads. How long would townies allow themselves to skirt lynches just because of something that's unproven?
I'm scum for not believing Nachos claim, but I'm also scum forchanging my stance and believing it to be true? Which is it?
You're the one who decided to adopt a multiple choice aspect to your behavior.
Did I waiver on my "because WIFOM" answer to why I claimed? Nope because it was the truth. I claimed in my first post because of WIFOM.
Did I waiver on my reason for investigating Tom with gunsmith? Nope. I was sure he was paranoid of being investigated because he had a gun and I was right.
Did I waiver on why I investigated you as a seer? Nope. I said everytime I think you might be town you do something scummy and that has born out time and time again.
See, townies don't have to adopt a multiple choice aspect to their behavior like you did. Townies know why they do things and don't care about looking scummy. And btw, I've seen plenty of town and scum roleblockers. Your role is your role, even if that role is garbage like Miller or Beloved Princess. I intentionally introduced WIFOM in a game where townies traditionally try to minimize WIFOM in my first post. I boldly stated it.
To the other person with a Xyre gift: if GJ flips werewolf, I'd like to take the shot at someone non-IMAB, meaning you should shoot IMAB. If GJ flips Mafia or town, I'll be shooting at IMAB so you may shoot wherever. This should prevent us from doubling up/confirm IMAB as town even in the event I am shot.
You didn't use the gift last night? I've been taking flak all Day from Imab for preventing you from town-clearing him, and yet you didn't use the shot? Why not?
To the other person with a Xyre gift: if GJ flips werewolf, I'd like to take the shot at someone non-IMAB, meaning you should shoot IMAB. If GJ flips Mafia or town, I'll be shooting at IMAB so you may shoot wherever. This should prevent us from doubling up/confirm IMAB as town even in the event I am shot.
We should just sort out who shoots who in advance, just in case the person shooting dies.
To the other person with a Xyre gift: if GJ flips werewolf, I'd like to take the shot at someone non-IMAB, meaning you should shoot IMAB. If GJ flips Mafia or town, I'll be shooting at IMAB so you may shoot wherever. This should prevent us from doubling up/confirm IMAB as town even in the event I am shot.
You didn't use the gift last night? I've been taking flak all Day from Imab for preventing you from town-clearing him, and yet you didn't use the shot? Why not?
You deserve the flak regardless of whether Nacho lost his shot or not. Also, unless you’re a werewolf how would you know it would townclear him instead of killing him?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
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Point is, I think you're totally wrong, and you're using your governor power to get your way. If you really think you're right, you should stop threatening to governor and let the town prove they agree or disagree with your arguments on their own merits, instead of threatening to, as I said before, take the ball and go home.
Put it another way: what I want, right now, is for you to promise not to use your power, at all, for the rest of the game. Until you agree to that, I don't think we have anything to talk about. Because I'm not going to try to convince someone who refuses to be convinced because he thinks he has all the answers and has the power to force his opinions upon others.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Am I understanding that both you and Nacho could get behind GJ though? That would be peachy right now.
Also, I got my answer from Iso. He says that bodyguarding redirects the kill, so nobody would die (assuming the bodyguard isn't himself a werewolf).
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Xyre's posts getting worse and more desperate with time. I love the whole discreditng his own argument in the same post. And by love I mean it's like watching a cat get it's head stuck in a jar. I'm not going use the "F" word but like, it's starting to look that way.
Hey guys. I noticed that Xyre, has done everything to try and paint me as scum without actually criticizing my analysis of the game. He's shouted from the rooftops about how EtR makes me scum, he's shouted from the rooftops that tomsloger's lies make me scum, he's shouted from the rooftops that the sky being blue makes me scum. Basically Xyre apppears to be doing a lot of talking around me but not to me, which is when his arguments tend to get destroyed.
@Nachomamma8
I know I'm calling Xyre scum in almost every post, but the person you need to actually not govern is Dota. Don't forget he lied about being paranoid about you. He initially said he did it to protect you from nightkills. If his buddy wasn't running interference on his behalf his contradictary reasons for his claim and night actions would have gotten him lynched ages ago.
Xyre's eventually gonna have to get killed at night. I've been pretty open about how both teams are completely incompetent with their nightkills. Eventually someone's gonna kill Xyre anyway, although given how incompetent both teams are, it'll probably be mafia that does it because why the **** not.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
B) (at the moment) He is adamant about not using our werewolf killing device on IABM.
C) He claims TS (me) is mafia.
D) Why do I want us to "townclear" IABM with the ww killing device?
If I was mafia I would want as few towncleared players as possible. Adding IABM to "townclear" helps town. Your plan to blindly lynch him is reckless.
I like Nacho's point about people that don't mind their scum reads being governed. Makes tons of sense. Several of us are fighting tooth and nail to get our reads lynched and others are "going with the flow". Xyre is playing "punchdrunk" and somehow continues to tunnel me as scum when I've been completely town cleared.
Xyre, I'm untouchable. Get over it. They'll have to kill me during the night but I'd consider it quite the honor to eat a nightkill as vanilla town right now.
Point blank-Who are your scum reads. I don't care who you think is town. Give me the people you are willing to lynch right now. Can you clarify whose likely teammates?
For your scum question. Assuming there is two, or IMAB checks out, the last scum is likely in the Antsy/Seppel/TS pile. Dota is likely partners with Etr, and IMAB would likely be either town or werewolf. I don't think if he is lying, he claims he still has the seer shot going into night 2 as a member of the mafia. All that does is make him a more tempting target for cross kill. In addition, I can't see IMAB being mafia with Dota, due to how hard IMAB is going for him at this stage. COunting on Nacho keeping his word about pardoning a lynched dota doesn't seem like a great idea at this stage.
I thought I answered your first question though. 18 player game, two scum teams, and I am not a full doctor.. Elite is a step up, but only if I know what I am doing. I already figured there was either cop/cop varient + either a watcher or a tracker. I figured a skeptical scum team might kill me or roleblock me (or both), and hopefully an investigative role would have caught them. It should have been obvious that even if I was scum just trying to gambit, the other team would not have known that, and would have still resulted in someone getting caught. I believed there was enough power, and sending both teams in blind to mean that crosskill chances were higher, as were ability uses. I dropped this almost immediately after IMAB's claim, as his ability pointed to perhaps a weaker town, and perhaps a better opportunity for my own ability. One of the other biggest reasons for no-lynching is to keep information from going out, so with two almost back to back claims, another point against that plan.
@TS: What's your read on Xyre?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Chris claimed tracker, and just flipped goon.
@Etr: Why didn't you claim watcher in response to his claim? IMAB was an already claimed double shot cop variant, did you really think all three of you existed? What about after Tom's revelation?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I am not scumreading EtR because of his reaction to my play. I am scumreading Johnny and Anty because of their reactions to my play.
My response to your EtR case was a response to your EtR case, not a case of my own. My scumread on EtR comes in several pieces: 1) town watcher is extremely overpowered in a game with two scumteams (possibility to catch two scum in a night is nasty), 2) Mafia team is overly weak if there are protective roles, 3) Watcher on the scumteam would explain why Chris felt comfortable claiming tracker. The behavioral piece is due mostly to be underwhelmed, sure, but the points I found problematic are mostly elsewhere.
This!!! So much this. If he "knows" I'm WW why waste a lynch when I'm going to be killed tonight? And he's townreading the person who screwed up the notion of using that action on me last night, despite the fact that DoTA lied and contradicted his motivations for doing so? And then this...
I'm getting flashbacks of Cyan from avante garde mafia though w/r/t Xyre.
@Iso - Can we get a vote count please? Thanks.
Wait, so, you agree he's lying?
Can we just do this then and worry about other stuff later?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Shouldn't it be one or the other - if you were telling the truth. Not both.
Also, what are we supposed to do when you show up alive tomorrow and say (1) Derp, I guess I BG'd the wrong guy, or (2) Hey, I was RB'ed, we should now lynch DOTA?
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
In short:
1) Not really; the only way that corner case could occur is if both scum teams shoot the same person and the watcher watched their target. Even assuming a limited pool of viable targets for kills, the odds of that happening are quite low. Otherwise, town watcher is generally more powerful than in a regular game, but that's only a natural product of the town being weakened faster by facing two kills for every lynch (because cross-kills are unreliable and the scum groups have a limited incentive to work together). So all told, it's about a wash. Also, a scum watcher would be underpowered, because the only credible use for the ability would be to pretend to be town; it doesn't really help the mafia affirmatively.
2) That assumes there aren't any abilities we don't know about. A d the mafia's weakness in killing trades off against the fact that they have to be lynched, which I also think is a wash.
3) Not really. First, that only makes sense if SC is a WW, which doesn't seem right to me anyway. Second, it's not like watchers and trackers are interchangeable; the unpredictable results of the former make it hard to pretend to be the latter, because you'll have to claim to have "tracked" someone who may not have been worth tracking.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
imabusinessman (3): DoTArchon, EtR, Xyre
EtR (2): Nachomamma8, Antny223
DoTArchon (3): imabusinessman, Gentleman Johnny, Seppel
Gentleman Johnny (3): Axelrod, Axelrod, Nachomamma8
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You are correct. My point was that if I stay alive for WIFOM reasons, both teams will still likely target non-obvious townies. Or, I die. As far as claiming RB tomorrow, that would get easily countered tonight.
I die tonight, or I die tomorrow. But my death either way narrows PoE by a lot.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
@TappingStones: [ b ]Bold[ /b ] Just leave out the spaces in the brackets.
Vote: Gentleman Johnny
L-1
If I don't make it back tomorrow, hopefully IMAB won't make it back, either. Remember what I've said about TS and GJ's relationship, and why Antny is likely scum, too.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
If this is actually going to go through, do me a favor and re-read Dota. Etr should watch you and catch someone or keep you alive for another day.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Something about the way he is using Nacho's Govern as his excuse, as opposed to saying anything about GJ himself.
Needs to be checked for DOTA's prior opinions/statements about GJ.
Which questions did I not respond to? On top of that, disagreeing with Xyre doesn't actually mean I think he is scum. Under that logic, one of Nacho/Xyre is scum.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
The no lynch was discussed early in the game, and I can't see how the question us relevant to the current wagon on GJ. Is there anything he could have said that would have prevented TS from voting for him? And GJ asks TS about his read on Xyre, which anyone following the game would know since TS has been very vocal about it. Note that TS doesn't answer the question or point out one of the many "Xyre is scum!" posts he's made when he casts his vote.
@Axelrod/Nachos/Xyre: What are your thoughts on this interaction?
Obviously not. You being a werewolf would have just made things much cleaner.
I don't know what you are asking about specifically, and I didn't realize this was addressed to me.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I think that's the most obvious watch target.
You also had asked why I hadn't claimed when Sir Chris claimed tracker. I had considered it but didn't for a couple reasons. First, it wasn't a direct counter claim so I didn't think it was wise to reveal, especially sinice i belived he was lying. The other reason being the roles can technically exist together in the same game so I didn't think it was worth revealing myself.
Jobie also claimed to have a cop ability, and IMAB also had claimed shot of each type. How many other investigative rolls did you think existed? You would have made #4 at the time (not including Tom, and nobody knew Jobie was neutral)
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Well, with 2 scum teams I would anticipate additional investigative roles. At the time I didn't believe Sir Chris or Businessman so...2?
How many protective roles do you think we should have?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Still haven't recieved an answer from Xyre on why he's giving out ww shots but he's against using them on ww suspects.
I really dont like DOTAs vote on GJ. I'll be casing him presently.
That's because DotA is scum.
While I was searching for one of my own quotes I stumbled upon this quote. Now that we've had a few days, whom do you think is the scum that was opportunistic on Zionite (who is now confirmed town).
@TappingStones
@Xyre
@Nachomamma8
You've got the wrong man!
DoTArchon is scum.
You're the one who decided to adopt a multiple choice aspect to your behavior.
Did I waiver on my "because WIFOM" answer to why I claimed? Nope because it was the truth. I claimed in my first post because of WIFOM.
Did I waiver on my reason for investigating Tom with gunsmith? Nope. I was sure he was paranoid of being investigated because he had a gun and I was right.
Did I waiver on why I investigated you as a seer? Nope. I said everytime I think you might be town you do something scummy and that has born out time and time again.
See, townies don't have to adopt a multiple choice aspect to their behavior like you did. Townies know why they do things and don't care about looking scummy. And btw, I've seen plenty of town and scum roleblockers. Your role is your role, even if that role is garbage like Miller or Beloved Princess. I intentionally introduced WIFOM in a game where townies traditionally try to minimize WIFOM in my first post. I boldly stated it.
Huh? I've been totally forward about wanting my shots used on werewolves. Specifically the people I think are werewolves, viz. IMAB and Antny.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Would you consider roleblocker to be protective?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
We should just sort out who shoots who in advance, just in case the person shooting dies.
You deserve the flak regardless of whether Nacho lost his shot or not. Also, unless you’re a werewolf how would you know it would townclear him instead of killing him?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player