@Antny: At some point, someone had to have triggered you into playing the game. I remember you doing absolutely nothing until people heckled you too much. I was really expecting you to replace out and give us someone good. Is that what caused your turn of face?
No, it really just comes down to time. Right now, I'm on vacation meaning my schedule clearer.
The thing is, I'm pretty sure this happened after you started townreading me so strongly, but I'll have to go back and check at some point.
I also asked you about what happened if Xyre is hammered/pardoned and whether we can use that as an additional lynch but I realise now that wouldn't work because we still end the day so you can ignore it.
vote Dota
The lynch I want today is Dota. I don't buy his explanation for blocking Nacho. If people are still unsure of imab, then we should agree that someone with a werewolf killing bullet shoots him tonight to resolve the issue once and for all. Lynching him when we have a means to clear him/kill him is just dumb.
I would still support either an EtR lynch (especially since he is playing coy on the one piece information that could confirm his role) or TS.
I'm not interested in lynching any of Xyre, GJ, Nacho or imab today.
@Tapiing: You've had plenty to say about Antny's case on you, but completely ignored EtR's reread. Why is that?
Etr's game consisted of lurking and relentlessly posting that catch ups are coming.
I have zero confidence in Etr. If he's town he hasn't paid enough attention or kept involved for me to want to reply.
On a seerate note if GJ is scum we likely lose this game based on how weak the remaining town players are at scum hunting. Outside of Nacho I'm not very confident in the remaining rabble.
None of these questions should be answered. This is classic scum fishing for tactical information.
@Xyre- Why did DOTA and etr both say that you should or can identify who targeted you? I'm totally lost there.
I'm also saying nothing about that.
Right now, I think we can still lose unless we quickly eliminate one scum team, which means this night is critical. So we need to think very carefully about what information (or misinformation) we let out into the world, and who asks the questions. So until further notice, I'm basically ignoring everything my scum suspects say/ask.
And you expect to win by keeping everyone in the dark? This makes no sense.
You aren't going to answer questions from people you don't like? This is looking bad for you and that's coming from someone that's trying to get on board with your plan.
@TappingStones - You didn't want to respond to EtR's case on you because you have no confidence in him (and you are now casing him), yet when Xyre decides to ignore his scumreads you blast him for it. Why is that?
Responding to a case against me vs. asking Xyre to stop making the town lose or to explain to the town why he is sabotaging us are two very, VERY different things.
@Antny: At some point, someone had to have triggered you into playing the game. I remember you doing absolutely nothing until people heckled you too much. I was really expecting you to replace out and give us someone good. Is that what caused your turn of face?
No, it really just comes down to time. Right now, I'm on vacation meaning my schedule clearer.
The thing is, I'm pretty sure this happened after you started townreading me so strongly, but I'll have to go back and check at some point.
I also asked you about what happened if Xyre is hammered/pardoned and whether we can use that as an additional lynch but I realise now that wouldn't work because we still end the day so you can ignore it.
vote Dota
The lynch I want today is Dota. I don't buy his explanation for blocking Nacho. If people are still unsure of imab, then we should agree that someone with a werewolf killing bullet shoots him tonight to resolve the issue once and for all. Lynching him when we have a means to clear him/kill him is just dumb.
I would still support either an EtR lynch (especially since he is playing coy on the one piece information that could confirm his role) or TS.
I'm not interested in lynching any of Xyre, GJ, Nacho or imab today.
Interesting that you are ok lynching someone who has the same reads as you (me).
Surely it can't come as a shock at this point Tapping?
It does actually. Rigid mindsets are hard for me to accept. I've heard it's often age-related but it happens in us younger folk as well. I am disappointed that you don't even allow a situation to exist where certain scum reads can be realized as town. It's like you're aware that you might be wed to a mislynch and you wont let any facts get into the way of that.
Your "big post" about me was universally called rubbish. That doesn't make you bat an eye. You think a scum player is going to continually beg you to bring a case against them? As scum that just has no margin for profit. Wouldn't scum just pursue a lynch or sit back? Why am I trying to get you to see the light? Not like having you townread me would help me with anyone else. The others have written you often. I at least asked to hear your argument.
Surely it can't come as a shock at this point Tapping?
It does actually. Rigid mindsets are hard for me to accept. I've heard it's often age-related but it happens in us younger folk as well. I am disappointed that you don't even allow a situation to exist where certain scum reads can be realized as town. It's like you're aware that you might be wed to a mislynch and you wont let any facts get into the way of that.
First, how old do you think I am for crying out loud?
Second, I am more than happy to reassess a read when I have a reason to. I simply haven't seen a reason to yet.
Your "big post" about me was universally called rubbish. That doesn't make you bat an eye. You think a scum player is going to continually beg you to bring a case against them? As scum that just has no margin for profit. Wouldn't scum just pursue a lynch or sit back? Why am I trying to get you to see the light? Not like having you townread me would help me with anyone else. The others have written you often. I at least asked to hear your argument.
Your essentially answering your own question here. Your keen to get me to townread you. There's the motivation. I have asked Xyre to explain his stance. He has refused. I'd ask Seppel, but he's Seppel and I doubt he'll go into detail either. No one else has commented on it as far as I recall.
If people want to convince me you're town, I am prepared to listen. Beyond that, I make no guarantees.
Do you have anything to say to anyone other than Xyre? He doesn't control the thoughts of whims of the entire town.
Actually, question for you:
IMAB made a decent post towards why Dota is scum, what did you think about it, or what parts do you dislike about it?
Where is the IABM post on DOTA? I'll check it out and give my feedback.
Can you check out interactions between etr and dota today?
I'm going to present the etr case in-depth today but dota needs to be cased as well.
I can definitely. I have been leaning scum on dota for a while, going back and forth since day 1. When I was looking over him a few days ago, I was about to label him just lean scum, and then I saw the claim. Two protective roles in this set-up is not much of a stretch, especially considering how many investigative roles are floating around (neutrals might as well have been town). Etr I really haven't paid too much attention to. There was that one slip day 1 that everyone piled on because something about "caring about the seer part" or something that looked soft as *****, but that was about it.
I think looking for interactions would be rough. Would you rather just tackle Etr, and I'll case dota?
Do you have anything to say to anyone other than Xyre? He doesn't control the thoughts of whims of the entire town.
Actually, question for you:
IMAB made a decent post towards why Dota is scum, what did you think about it, or what parts do you dislike about it?
Where is the IABM post on DOTA? I'll check it out and give my feedback.
Can you check out interactions between etr and dota today?
I'm going to present the etr case in-depth today but dota needs to be cased as well.
I can definitely. I have been leaning scum on dota for a while, going back and forth since day 1. When I was looking over him a few days ago, I was about to label him just lean scum, and then I saw the claim. Two protective roles in this set-up is not much of a stretch, especially considering how many investigative roles are floating around (neutrals might as well have been town). Etr I really haven't paid too much attention to. There was that one slip day 1 that everyone piled on because something about "caring about the seer part" or something that looked soft as *****, but that was about it.
I think looking for interactions would be rough. Would you rather just tackle Etr, and I'll case dota?
Will do. I'll be posting about etr as soon as I finish the interactions analysis. Looks like we are kind of alone here as Nacho is who knows where and Xyre is throwing the game.
If people want to convince me you're town, I am prepared to listen.
I was going to answer you, but on reflection, I don't see TS actually calling you scum in this exchange.
@TS, do you actually think Antny is scum, or are you just waving a big stick around and seeing what falls out of the tree?
The conversation was never about whether Antny was scum. I asked for his case on me as he has consistently scum read me without an argument. We got the case, everyone said it was bad and I'm trying to figure out what's going on up in that head of his. He doesn't seem like scum to me, I mentioned before that i don't think scum play this poorly. Tunneling town is my guess. But he isn't off my radar obviously.
2. Yes Axelrod actually believed that and that's why I said I pity him. I don't think he's scum. Like I'm gonna quote Superintendent Chalmers: The rod up his ass must have a rod up it's ass.
Well, you never answered what you meant either. Exactly what kind of a joke was it? I am missing the funny. Still.
I think I asked before and no one answered, but are people clearing iamb of being a Mafia because of what Tom said? Or was there something else I'm not remembering?
Xyre is continuing gis bad play. Attempting to throw the game to scum. Why in God's name would he point out that he gifted Axelrod?
He says he doesn't want to give info to scum but that was the most vital information he had available to him. If town has LVP Xyre will be getting that award.[/quote]
Where did he do that, exactly?
I'm just going to apologize (again) to everyone for not putting any time into this game. Lately it just seems like there's other things I'd rather be doing. That does not bode well for my Mafia future.
I would imagine that at least one of the people claiming VT is a scum (that would be Anty and TappingStones).
Don't like DOTArchon's lying.
Am sure that someone claiming an ability role is scum. Xyre would be the Mod-sneaky one. EtR hasn't given us anything with his results to make me trust him. GJ's claim does nothing for me one way or the other. Seppel could totally be scum with that role. The only one it's still really hard to imagine as scum is the Governor claim.
I may be leaning DOTArchon now based on the above. I won't vote him until I actually re-read him though, and I don't know what that is going to happen.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
By doing whatever the opposite of the invitational was. Like, seriously. Is this just the new theme of mafia to just jack it all day long on the 3rd/4th/5th/whatever day, and not post?
I will be requesting a list from each player and vote count after TS and myself finish are respective cases.
[Random speculation that should not be taken seriously]
1) Town:12 Mafia:3 Werewolves:3 - The scum teams are each playing a game of 15v3.
2) Town:14 Mafia:2 Werewolves:2 - Seems like town is incredibly powerful in this setup, so maybe give scum powerful roles they wouldn't normally have access to.
3) Town:14 Mafia:3 Werewolves:1 - Start with 1 wolf and give the alpha wolf the infect ability.
[/Random speculation that should not be taken seriously]
I'm not trying to start a debate as to the setup, I just think that until we know more we should be careful about blindly believing that someone's role is indicative of their alignment.
IGMEOY Nachos. Your role only gets you so far, your actions will provide the proof.
He does leave the disclaimer about not taking it seriously, but it is the only post of length that he has made so far in day 1. The last point just seems silly for reasons, followed by a slight job at Nacho. Post really doesn't do anything but speculate, and kind of poke at the idea of maybe pushing Nacho up. It almost feels forced at the end, as if he was unwilling to state town or not auto town.
Why would I be kidding? To claim on page one of the thread is a pretty ballsy move. I do believe it's possible that he isn't long and is town, but I'm not going to just take his word for it. What has he done that makes you think I'm wrong for adopting this stance?
Still hung up about Nacho, after being called out by Seppel.
Is there a way out of the posting restriction? Quote Queen for yes or ACDC for no...
I'm not trying to start a debate as to the setup, I just think that until we know more we should be careful about blindly believing that someone's role is indicative of their alignment.
IGMEOY Nachos. Your role only gets you so far, your actions will provide the proof.[/quote]
Not a bad question to start, since no one else seemingly has a posting restriction.
Vote: Tomsloger
Gone back and reread your posts in iso, something about you is really putting me on edge. Going with my gut on this.
There are 156 posts at this stage. It shouldn't be that hard to go back and find what Tom said at this stage that struck a cord with you.
He does leave the disclaimer about not taking it seriously, but it is the only post of length that he has made so far in day 1. The last point just seems silly for reasons, followed by a slight job at Nacho. Post really doesn't do anything but speculate, and kind of poke at the idea of maybe pushing Nacho up. It almost feels forced at the end, as if he was unwilling to state town or not auto town.
So you support a no-lynch for day 1. Say we test your theory, run someone up to lynch, and Nachos pardons it. We go to night and he gets NK'd. Wasted effort.
How could he be Roleblocked? His power is specifically used during the day.
Unvote, Vote:Rodemy
Tom responds a few times, but does not address his vote at all. This is dota's next post after his Tom vote. Doesn't mention why Tom was weird, only that he will now be riding the Rodemy train.
Let's look at the 2 bolded parts. You say you do not support a Day 1 no lynch, and use the fact that you are voting someone as a counter argument. BUT, you want to force Nachos to prove his claim by running someone up quickly and getting him to pardon them. THIS WILL RESULT IN A NO LYNCH!!!
That last comment seems especially off to me. How about this. Let's run you up for a lynch, and we'll see if Nachos feels like pardoning you...
Calls out Rodemy for going after Tom, despite being on the same person 30 posts ago. His specific reading of Rodemys "oh govenah" seems like a complete misrep.
Mistaken maybe, but I never intended to come across as malicious. To me, it seemed counter-intuitive for Rodemy to say he doesn't support a no-lynch but then want Nachos to prove his claim.
Handwaves away Seppel's point about being malicious, sticks to his guns about saying he thinks Rodemy meant that he wanted Nacho to test his ability.
I've only been playing for about 2 months, my first game (a basic at Mafiascum) hasn't even finished yet. I'm trying to keep up with everything happening in here but I'm feeling quite lost. I've read a few older completed games but I'm very much not a 'Meta' person. I keep rereading the thread looking for things I can work with but it's a bit overwhelming when the one thing I do go after sets several people (You, Gentleman Johnny and iamabusinessman (whatever his reasons are...)) after me as scum.
The only thing I hate more than the low hanging fruit argument, is the I am a newbie argument.
342 (from now on just to speed things around, I will only be linking to the first post of each page, rather than each post. So, when I get to the first post of page 8, it will be hyper linked).
@iamabusinessman: Right in the beginning of the game, when you were asked why you claimed, you said "because WIFOM". Why is your claim WIFOM? Is making a WIFOM claim something town would do so early in a game?
Also, 1 shot of each sounds to me like a very underpowered role. Even if your target is scum there's a 50% chance you use the wrong ability on them.
This is a couple hundred posts AFTER we did our little powwow with IMAB's claim. IMAB's last post before this was a vote on Etr, why would you bring this up now, unless you were planning to case IMAB, what point does it make?
I used the term because that is what my experience in this game has been so far, a lot of suspicion aimed my way and very few questions.
This actually gives me pause. Even to a newbie, the primary root of suspicioun came from his attempted misrep of Rod/Vaimes. If he was more experienced, I would say this is a purposeful deflection, but I could see this being legit confused about why he is in the spotlight.
410
Only have 2 so far:
TappingStones - I don't like how TS attacked Oceansblack for the non-native speaker comment. I didn't read it as a "thinly veiled and tacky insult", this is the Internet and it is possible that there are people in this game who don't speak English as their home language. I also find TS to be more confrontational during that debate than OB, that argument got blown out of proportion very quickly. This links to my next player,
Tomsloger - This comment seemed strange to me
The point Nachos made looked clear to me, be proactive in questioning people and forming reads rather than waiting for other people to ask the questions and reacting to that. Town are supposed to hunt the scum, scum know who is town and who isn't (obviously this game is different for having 2 scum teams) and can therefore play more reactively.
Then in post 111, during the debate between TS and OB (which started because of Tom), he calls OB hostile, and in post 116 he again calls OB hostile, says that TS is "lighthearted and guileless (as I said I read more hostility in Ts's posts than OB's) and refers to the argument as a slap fight )which I take as meaning silly rather than indicative of alignment).
In 154 he votes for Xyre, offering to expand later on why, After asking one seemingly unrelated question (in which he compares Xyre to Necarg, Xyre's top scum read), he unvotes without much explanation.
Same for his vote on iamabusinessman in #181, the vote is placed but there's very little motivation for it (I will admit I did the same when I first voted Tom in post 156, all I said was that he felt off to me after a reread). What I also found odd is that he never questioned that vote, he posted 4 times before I unvoted and moved on to Rodemy.
I also find it annoying that he answers questions directed at other players,
although this probably isn't alignment indicative. For example in 103 he answers Rodemy's question to Wildfire, in 353 he answers my question to iamabusinessman and in 358 he answers Antny's question to Jobie.
Feeling better about my initial vote,
In response to Sir Chris. Out of his two scum reads, Tom is one of them, and after being pressed, immediately votes Tom. Chris also votes Dota before this post, and if the invitational showed us anything, Sir Chris will bus and bus hard if a teamate even looks remotely scummy.
560
You might want to go back and reread the quote from Zionite there, because the part I've highlighted seems to say the opposite of what you are now accusing him of. What made you think he was trying to town clear anyone?
His vote is still on Tom at this stage. From voting Tom, to this post, it comes off really passive for someone who believes he has a caught scum.
It was less about defending Zionite and more about pointing out the error in Tom's post. I guess it does look like I'm defending Zionite, if you consider my discussion with TS earlier on this page, but there as well I'm just trying to point out a flawed argument. Seems to be a few where Zionite is concerned, need to reread him. Maybe I'm missing something.
In response to Axel, the "less about defending Zionite" part just reads wrong to me. It is as if he realized he can't actually push Zionite without looking bad, and wants to salvage the opportunity.
636
Based on the context of the rest of the paragraph I'm assuming the bolded was a typo? In any case
Unvote
I'll reread Sir Chris and the little we have from Hunt when I get to work a bit later.
Nacho comes in, unvotes off Tom. Has had almost no real interaction or attempt to get anyone onto the Tom wagon. Starts to look towards Sir Chris.
Imabusinessman confirmed his claim was faked. Thoughts?
This was in response to IMAB and Zionite talking about Tordecks PR (posting restriction) being faked, and Dota read this as IMAB saying his PR was faked, then asking for thoughts. This is clearly a newb post, feel free to follow the quotes to Zio/IMAB to determine if you think it was an obvious mistake. This along with his misrep of Rodemy is looking pretty shady.
824
That's the three posts in order, with no one else posting in between. I had a gap at work to catch up and respond to a few things when I saw that and remembered that Seppel had unvoted you because of your claim. Was a simple mistake, not an attempt to misrep.
This one, comes off a lot cleaner than his Rodemy interaction. I could easily see this as being a coach job, after his first interaction drew a lot of hate.
can you explain what you mean by this? I've read it a few times and I think I'm missing something.
Response to Jobie, with his vote on Jobie. Again, I am not seeing the fire of a town who thinks he has a caught scum. If dota has a town game, I wouldn't mind seeing how he interacts with people he voted there (even if it is offsite).
942
Tapping, why are you willing to blindly follow a player who has, at best, been anti-town so far.
No interaction with Jobie from his vote, to the post above this one.
1137
I'm sold.
Unvote: Jobie
Vote: Sir Chris
Bandwagon vote on Chris. If I had to pick a team right now, Dota is a werewolf with Chris. Their interaction has come apart as distancing in the few interactions I have looked at with dota, but both have always been willing to vote the other, but never as the instigator.
1474
Response to Tom claiming.
1479
@Tom: I meant the name of your role i.e. Cop,Doc etc.
@Nachos: Tom has claimed neutral, not sure if that would imply a 2 town setup.
The two questions seem contradictory. The former implies he is trying to get more information, but the latter implies he can't do anything with it, and the first question is simply useless.
Would anyone be opposed to a mass name claim?
If he thinks Tom was caught on the other side of the scum line, this is an attempt to try and figure out the other mafia members.
I originally asked if anyone would object to a mass name-claim, and people just started giving the info out. This is in no way role related, just a theory that will definitely benefit town if it pans out.
Immediately tries to back pedal out of the name claim by blaming it on people just saying their name. All this should have done was speed the time tables for your plan.
And thank you Tom for ******* up my theory by laying everything out before I had a majority of the names in...
Yes, my full name is Michaelangelo. We already have Leonardo and Raphael, and April could possibly be April O'Neill also from TMNT.
Kate is a bit of a stretch but a google search brought up the movie Kiss Me Kate, which involves gangsters, and My Cousin Vinny(i.e. Huntzilla), starring Joe Pesci(best known for acting in gangster movies). I needed more info to figure out if that was the connection or if there was something else.
Benito is another one I am unsure of, google brings it up as either Benito mussiolini or Benny the Ball from Topcat. Once again, needed more names to make the connections.
Lacramioara is Romanian for Lily of the Valley, a highly poisonous plant. Romania/Transylvania is a popular location for vampire/werewolf stories.
Flavor gaming. After spending day 1 trying to figure out the potential numbers of mafia/werewolves the game started with. Even if we ignore the fact Iso typically tries to punish flavor gaming, this is just an attempt to look like he is helping the town.
Why waste a lynch on Tom when a)there are still scum to lynch and b)if he wins when all the mafia are eliminated it would make sense for them to NK him, even if we mislynch they could still lose members to wolf kills and give him a free win...
Almost immediate about face from voting Tom, to saying unvote to prevent speed/accidental hammer, but still willing to lynch him, to now "why waste a lynch". The evolution of this plan just feels completely unnatural.
Imab claimed he got a positive result on Tom having a gun, Tom claims Iso confirmed he does not have one via PM. One of the two is lying and the flip won't reveal any more than a name and role. Based on how the two have playet in this game I'm more inclined to believe Tom over Imab.
@Jobie, why no?
Sides Tom with believing IMAB is lying about his result. 1767
Flavour wise I guess Jobie was Tom's opposite, makes sense that Van Helsing would win when the werewolves are exterminated.
@imab: Why waste your seer shot on me? What made you think I might be a wolf?
I don't know how this is his first post, rather than voting IMAB if he thought Tom was telling the truth. No sign that he even considered whether Tom might have given a false positive, or confidence about his read on IMAB from before.
Wildfire - My main issues with Wildfire are his name claim (yes I know flavour gaming is a terrible idea but it's what I have to work with right now, and so far the names have made sense with the flips) and his 180 on Imab. Early in the day he seemed on the fence about Imab, but once the wagon gained traction he started hard scumreading Imab based on interaction analysis with Sir Chris. I did a count earlier, Imab reached L-1 before Nachos made his post and people started unvoting.
Antny - He's been a non-entity to me for most of the game, as GJ says it seems almost like he's flying under the radar.
Axelrod - I have him as lean town.
EtR - Neutral, there's nothing I've noticed that stands out to me in either direction.
GJ - Same as EtR, there isn't anything that stands out as town or scum to me.
I do want to mention 2 others, Seppel and Imab.
I will admit that I was looking forward to playing with Seppel, when I found this subforum I read a few games and enjoyed the way Seppel approaches the game. I'm not seeing that Seppel here. He's been too quiet and reliant on people just believing his town/scum reads which he rarely explains.
I want to keep on Imab, I still think he's played quite a scummy game and I find it odd that he's been the only player town reading Wildfire since Day 3 started.
Again, look at his interaction with IMAB. Third example of someone he is voting, but not really interested in pursuing.
@Seppel: You're the only outstanding name at this point.
@TappingStones: The majority believe that Wildfire is scum, yet you're trying to deflect the wagon to EtR and set Wildfire up as toMorrow's lynch. Why is that?
Vote: Wildfire
He quote himself saying he intended to vote Wildfire. "See? My vote is justified"
2144
Crap! I JK'd Nachos last night, I suspected he might be the NK target. Completely forgot abput the gifts from you and Zionite.
First we hear about being jailed. I don't get the "crap" here. There is no way to know if roleblocking was detrimental to the gift. Maybe it was a passive ability or a day ability.
2226
@Nacho's - Does it make sense that TS, as a vanilla, would not use Zionite's ability last night?
Like, it's possible that he was afraid of getting lynched as town. There is also the possibility that he realized he will be caught when a random player is roleblocked, or no one is roleblocked at someone still dies.
Saying the post is scummy is one thing, but trying to make it out as worse than what it is by calling it a evil and an abyssal horror? Call this OMGUS if you want, but I've been wanting to lynch you for a long time now.
Vote:Imabusinessman
You could tell by how aggressive you were pushing him the last two days.
Okay, can people please see that GJ is scum? This case clearly has the markings of the conclusion being reached before the evidence was examined - no summary, no synthesis, just rote post analysis. And the individual pieces of evidence themselves are really weak.
Let's break it down:
He does leave the disclaimer about not taking it seriously, but it is the only post of length that he has made so far in day 1. The last point just seems silly for reasons, followed by a slight job at Nacho. Post really doesn't do anything but speculate, and kind of poke at the idea of maybe pushing Nacho up. It almost feels forced at the end, as if he was unwilling to state town or not auto town.
So you're suspicious of him because (a) this was his first post of length in a game that had only lasted 105 posts and (b) he's suspicious of a guy who claims for no reason? The rest of it is just fluffy "speculation bad" logic.
Still hung up about Nacho, after being called out by Seppel.
I like that; stands by his convictions in the face of adversity. That reads town to me.
There are 156 posts at this stage. It shouldn't be that hard to go back and find what Tom said at this stage that struck a cord with you.
I've said it once, I'll say it a thousand times: failure to do legwork isn't a scum tell without a clear scum motivation. We all have busy lives.
(There are some copy-paste glitches here, so I'm cutting through a bit.)
Tom responds a few times, but does not address his vote at all. This is dota's next post after his Tom vote. Doesn't mention why Tom was weird, only that he will now be riding the Rodemy train.
Could go either way. Another reasonable way to read it is Dota was voting by gut (god knows tom rubbed a lot of people the wrong way), but now is voting for someone on more concrete evidence. Now, I don't agree with voting Rodemy - I think Rodemy is just misguided here - but I don't think the vote is unreasonable, either. Rodemy's point - that Nacho is essentially unconfirmable - is reasonable but misguided.
But just calling this "riding the Rodemy train" is GJ ignoring all the subtlety and going straight for the conclusion he wants. Bad move.
Calls out Rodemy for going after Tom, despite being on the same person 30 posts ago. His specific reading of Rodemys "oh govenah" seems like a complete misrep.
No it doesn't. Again, Dota's reading is probably wrong but not unreasonable - he thinks Rodemy is trying to goad Nacho into using the governor on tom, which makes sense, seeing as they were just arguing over the confirmability of Nacho's role. (I assume in Dota's mind, Rodemy's "oh govnah" comment was a reference to that, rather than simply asking Nacho for his opinion.) And again, you can't just say the equivalent of "this is weird" and just conclude "ergo scum". That's not how this game works, GJ! And you should know that.
Handwaves away Seppel's point about being malicious, sticks to his guns about saying he thinks Rodemy meant that he wanted Nacho to test his ability.
Again, I agree with Dota - he's probably mistaken, but his mistake sounds earnest. And again, GJ cuts past the nuances and goes straight to "handwaves".
The only thing I hate more than the low hanging fruit argument, is the I am a newbie argument.
Agreed, but I'd give it much less weight. We were all new players once; we were all overwhelmed once. There's a difference between a non-sequitur pity party and a pity party aimed at derailing a wagon.
Also, GJ again misses some context here. Dota's comment came in response to Rodemy acknowledging that Dota's reading of his comments was not unreasonable. That explains the pity party - an acknowledgment that he's out of his depth. Perfectly reasonable, and certainly not something to be dismissed as just "the I am a newbie argument".
This is a couple hundred posts AFTER we did our little powwow with IMAB's claim. IMAB's last post before this was a vote on Etr, why would you bring this up now, unless you were planning to case IMAB, what point does it make?
Absence of motivation != scum motivation. Weird != scummy. Gotta do better than that.
This actually gives me pause. Even to a newbie, the primary root of suspicioun came from his attempted misrep of Rod/Vaimes. If he was more experienced, I would say this is a purposeful deflection, but I could see this being legit confused about why he is in the spotlight.
I'll be interested to see if GJ ever makes reference to this again. The fact that he ended with a vote makes me think that this is neither here nor there, but it does give a townie point to GJ, suggesting it isn't just a witch hunt, but that he honestly believes this (easier when there are two scum teams).
In response to Sir Chris. Out of his two scum reads, Tom is one of them, and after being pressed, immediately votes Tom. Chris also votes Dota before this post, and if the invitational showed us anything, Sir Chris will bus and bus hard if a teamate even looks remotely scummy.
Guilt by association. Or at least, that's the only way I can read this post to cohere. "Sir Chris was bussing, ergo Dota must be bussing." That's the flimsiest logic I've ever heard, even without the above acknowledgment that Dota's a new player and thus nowhere near Sir Chris's tactical caliber.
His vote is still on Tom at this stage. From voting Tom, to this post, it comes off really passive for someone who believes he has a caught scum.
I don't understand. His subsequent explanation in 613 makes sense to me and suits a scum-hunting mindset. How is this post inactive?
In response to Axel, the "less about defending Zionite" part just reads wrong to me. It is as if he realized he can't actually push Zionite without looking bad, and wants to salvage the opportunity.
That doesn't make sense. What Axel's accusing him of is the classic move of a scum buddy stepping in for another scum buddy to politely correct their logic. Meanwhile, Dota's confused tone of voice reads genuine. He sounds lost and timid to me.
Nacho comes in, unvotes off Tom. Has had almost no real interaction or attempt to get anyone onto the Tom wagon. Starts to look towards Sir Chris.
Typo? Nacho didn't unvote, Dota did. And what's your point? Why does this matter?
This was in response to IMAB and Zionite talking about Tordecks PR (posting restriction) being faked, and Dota read this as IMAB saying his PR was faked, then asking for thoughts. This is clearly a newb post, feel free to follow the quotes to Zio/IMAB to determine if you think it was an obvious mistake. This along with his misrep of Rodemy is looking pretty shady.
It clearly is a mistake, likely due to the post Zionite meant to quote (#779) getting cropped off. I have no idea how you read "shady" into so blatant an error.
This one, comes off a lot cleaner than his Rodemy interaction. I could easily see this as being a coach job, after his first interaction drew a lot of hate.
More broken logic. First of all, in all my games playing scum, never have I seen "coaching" even remotely this nuanced; usually, scum buddies just say "stop ******* up". Second, there's no attempt whatsoever to justify this coaching claim, it's just "newb makes cogent point, so newb must have had help, so newb must have scum buddies". I could drive a truck through that.
Response to Jobie, with his vote on Jobie. Again, I am not seeing the fire of a town who thinks he has a caught scum. If dota has a town game, I wouldn't mind seeing how he interacts with people he voted there (even if it is offsite).
"Not seeing the fire" is not enough to point to scum without more evidence. As GJ seems to acknowledge himself, personal temperament is a factor here. And Dota's question is perfectly reasonable, even of someone he's voting for, either as an admission of (Dota's) fallability or an attempt to trap Jobie. Again, GJ makes no attempt to connect his logic to his conclusion, and just floats out general characterizations of dodginess.
No interaction with Jobie from his vote, to the post above this one.
You're allowed to have multiple scum suspects in this game, GJ.
Bandwagon vote on Chris. If I had to pick a team right now, Dota is a werewolf with Chris. Their interaction has come apart as distancing in the few interactions I have looked at with dota, but both have always been willing to vote the other, but never as the instigator.
So you're telling me Dota, the new player, preemptively bandwagoned his scum buddy based on one person's PBPA of a player whom almost nobody else read as scum? That's exceptionally aggressive; even Sir Chris might blanch at that level of all-out commitment. Could it simply be I was right about Sir Chris, and Dota appreciated my reasoning? Occam's Razor certainly suggests that.
Response to Tom claiming.
What's your point?
The two questions seem contradictory. The former implies he is trying to get more information, but the latter implies he can't do anything with it, and the first question is simply useless.
I don't understand your logic here, nor why this matters.
If he thinks Tom was caught on the other side of the scum line, this is an attempt to try and figure out the other mafia members.
**That, kids, is what you call a scum slip. So there is some pattern to the scum names, isn't there? When you're dead, I'm going to use this quote as the spear with which I stab TS. Probably while shouting, "Eets'a you, mafia!"
Immediately tries to back pedal out of the name claim by blaming it on people just saying their name. All this should have done was speed the time tables for your plan.
Still don't get it. This all still reads as Dota having a cunning plan which he's inexperienced enough to not realize will likely lead to nothing. His post still reflects that to my eyes.
Flavor gaming. After spending day 1 trying to figure out the potential numbers of mafia/werewolves the game started with. Even if we ignore the fact Iso typically tries to punish flavor gaming, this is just an attempt to look like he is helping the town.
Begging the question. "He's doing something that helps the town, but he's scum, so he's only doing it to pretend to be town." What if he's just town? Again, Occam's Razor - newb townie coming up with intricate schemes for "breaking" the game makes a lot more sense than what you're suggesting he is, which is some sort of idiot-savant mafia, vacillating wildly between awful plays and Sir Chris-level brilliance. That doesn't make sense, GJ!
Almost immediate about face from voting Tom, to saying unvote to prevent speed/accidental hammer, but still willing to lynch him, to now "why waste a lynch". The evolution of this plan just feels completely unnatural.
"Immediately" belies the fact that two (real-world) days and a hundred posts passed between the vote and this moment. And again, where's the scum motivation? Lynching tom is good for both scum teams, because it's a wasted lynch. Caution suggests town, not scum.
Sides Tom with believing IMAB is lying about his result.
And your point is? At this moment, I believe imab was lying, too.
I don't know how this is his first post, rather than voting IMAB if he thought Tom was telling the truth. No sign that he even considered whether Tom might have given a false positive, or confidence about his read on IMAB from before.
Also could go either way, as Day 3 ably demonstrates; we've all gone back and forth on imab and his wacky, wacky ability. And again, where's the scum motivation? If imab is town and Dota scum, wouldn't Dota have all the reason in the world to jump on imab's throat? Unless you're suggesting they're somehow scum-buddies?! Because that doesn't make any sense at all!
He seems to come to the conclusion that IMAB was likely lying about his role, but isn't voting him. It isn't until 1784 that he finally votes IMAB.
Again, look at his interaction with IMAB. Third example of someone he is voting, but not really interested in pursuing.
And ditto.
He quote himself saying he intended to vote Wildfire. "See? My vote is justified"
Misrepresentation. Dota's quote clearly indicates he was only holding off voting because Wildfire was already at L-2 and he didn't want to put him in lynch range before his time. Note that the quoted post was from three (real-world) days prior.
Also, townie points for Dota, because his question to TS is a good one in retrospect. TS definitely does seem like he was setting up multiple townie lynches.
First we hear about being jailed. I don't get the "crap" here. There is no way to know if roleblocking was detrimental to the gift. Maybe it was a passive ability or a day ability.
Hadn't I already claimed by that point? And hadn't Nacho already acknowledged that Zionite's ability and mine were similar? Dota's statement is just fine.
You could ask him, instead of Nacho...
(a) What's your point? Or did you just want to step in to defend TS's honor?
(b) Dota doesn't know what the ability is, so he's asking someone who does.
Like, it's possible that he was afraid of getting lynched as town. There is also the possibility that he realized he will be caught when a random player is roleblocked, or no one is roleblocked at someone still dies.
We've been over this, but hopefully this PBPA solidifies the clear fact that Dota is new at this and absolutely one to make this kind of blunder. More to the point, it makes no sense for him to come clean about it if he was scum - after all, if he "failed" to save one of his targets, it's not like the target would be alive to claim to have been the target, and he could try to spin another story.
In short, this looks bad, but without tapping into the motivation for it, I think it's an innocent mistake. Based on all of the above, I'm more than happy to defend Dota to the death on this one.
You could tell by how aggressive you were pushing him the last two days.
Null tell. We don't know what constitutes "aggressive" for him. And again, this doesn't explain the scum-buddies problem.
Tl;dr this is a horrible case built on faulty logic, loaded language, and an utter failure to even try to explain Dota's motivation for pretty much anything. This is a case I'd only expect GJ to make as a last-ditch effort to get Dota.
You all may disagree with my reasoning or methods, but I'm more confident than ever that the last four scum are IMAB, Antny, GJ, and TS, and that Dota is town. I will happily defend this position with all twenty claws.
(But, again, werewolves over mafia. Imab or Antny has to die.)
There is basically no way in hell that DoT is scum. It doesn't actually make sense for scum to claim the Jailkeeper --> Roleblock thing on me; he wasn't caught out by his Jailkeeper claim, and the random paranoia of me because people aren't questioning me enough is well within the range of his town game but not so much within the range of his scum game.
I'm in a world where I could very happily vote EtR or Anty; I'm currently processing other scumreads.
I don't get why people all of a sudden think TS is scum when he's bled town in post after post after post, but I suppose I'll discover that when I read.
I'm not sure about GJ; I'd like for him to be scum because it'd make things neater, but I've seen quite a few things in his play that I've liked and thus don't feel super awesome about that anymore.
So you're suspicious of him because (a) this was his first post of length in a game that had only lasted 105 posts and (b) he's suspicious of a guy who claims for no reason? The rest of it is just fluffy "speculation bad" logic.
Yes, this one post is what I am suspicious about. You got me. Tell me why town would be speculating that hard about a set-up with ~5% information about the full setup?
I like that; stands by his convictions in the face of adversity. That reads town to me.
Trying to push a role that literally can't be scum reads town to you? Ask Zajnet what happens to games that give scum teams the ability to mess with lynches.
I've said it once, I'll say it a thousand times: failure to do legwork isn't a scum tell without a clear scum motivation. We all have busy lives.
(There are some copy-paste glitches here, so I'm cutting through a bit.)
By itself? You're right.
(That irritates me. I did it on word, and then copy pasted. Maybe something got cut in the paste over).
But just calling this "riding the Rodemy train" is GJ ignoring all the subtlety and going straight for the conclusion he wants. Bad move
You missed the point. He jumps on to Tom for memory (no issue at this stage for not bringing it up). tom posts 2-3 times and doesn't even address this new vote, he says nothing else to Tom and moves on to Rodemy.
(I assume in Dota's mind, Rodemy's "oh govnah" comment was a reference to that, rather than simply asking Nacho for his opinion.) And again, you can't just say the equivalent of "this is weird" and just conclude "ergo scum". That's not how this game works, GJ! And you should know that.
If what a player is representing doesn't match what is coming out of their message, is in fact weird, and scummy.
Also, GJ again misses some context here. Dota's comment came in response to Rodemy acknowledging that Dota's reading of his comments was not unreasonable. That explains the pity party - an acknowledgment that he's out of his depth. Perfectly reasonable, and certainly not something to be dismissed as just "the I am a newbie argument".
He has mentioned at least on either time before he is a newbie. I don't think the context adds a ton to either alignment, and he could have made this post as town or scum.
Absence of motivation != scum motivation. Weird != scummy. Gotta do better than that.
It adds to the situation that he isn't focused (which could be personal trait). Most people, I can imagine have an idea town or scum, expert or newbie of the types of his reaction, what was his reaction there? Or was he just posting to post? Was he expecting people to re-question IMAB?
Guilt by association. Or at least, that's the only way I can read this post to cohere. "Sir Chris was bussing, ergo Dota must be bussing." That's the flimsiest logic I've ever heard, even without the above acknowledgment that Dota's a new player and thus nowhere near Sir Chris's tactical caliber.
All this post was making was that if Dota is scum, he is likely a werewolf. There was a post of his that was made to Hunt that I didn't include, and that looked more believable (meaning, I don't think Dota is a mafia with hunt). His Chris interactions looked more buddy buddy.
I don't understand. His subsequent explanation in 613 makes sense to me and suits a scum-hunting mindset. How is this post inactive?
You can't tell me you can't read the hesitation and awkwardness when he says " I guess it does look like I'm defending Zionite, if you consider my discussion with TS earlier on this page." I could see your point if you were arguing this was more of a newbie tell, but "scum hunting mindset"? Really
Typo? Nacho didn't unvote, Dota did. And what's your point? Why does this matter?
Nacho makes a point about Tom, scum point about Chris, Dota jumps at the opportunity. My point is that he is not doing a ton of questioning or interacting with anyone he is willing to vote.
It clearly is a mistake, likely due to the post Zionite meant to quote (#779) getting cropped off. I have no idea how you read "shady" into so blatant an error
Yeah, I didn't care about the point too much, hence the read it your self. The fact that too many players use PR as both "power role" and "posting restriction" doesn't help. I brought it up as more of a pattern point, but this could have happened to him, regardless of alignment.
More broken logic. First of all, in all my games playing scum, never have I seen "coaching" even remotely this nuanced; usually, scum buddies just say "stop ******* up"
I don't think that works with a newbie. When I was scum in basics, I explain why it looks bad.
"Not seeing the fire" is not enough to point to scum without more evidence. As GJ seems to acknowledge himself, personal temperament is a factor here. And Dota's question is perfectly reasonable, even of someone he's voting for, either as an admission of (Dota's) fallability or an attempt to trap Jobie. Again, GJ makes no attempt to connect his logic to his conclusion, and just floats out general characterizations of dodginess.
I typed my responses as I read them. I didn't have a conclusion in mind, although I did enter the read with a leaning scum read. Hell, even the skim read, I was leaning scum, until realizing he was a PR claim.
You're allowed to have multiple scum suspects in this game, GJ.
Jobie wasn't a really hot wagon at the time. Did he actually want to push him, or just look busy?
So you're telling me Dota, the new player, preemptively bandwagoned his scum buddy based on one person's PBPA of a player whom almost nobody else read as scum? That's exceptionally aggressive; even Sir Chris might blanch at that level of all-out commitment. Could it simply be I was right about Sir Chris, and Dota appreciated my reasoning? Occam's Razor certainly suggests that.
What you are leaving out is that a lot of people displayed suspicion of Necarg, and Chris was better, but wasn't exactly radiating town vibes himself. Also, Rhand in xkcd did the exact same thing as scum: immediately bandwagoned Kami as the 2nd vote on his wagon whom not only was almost nobody else reading scum, but people were actually calling his tells "town".
What's your point?
There isn't one. Just for reference.
**That, kids, is what you call a scum slip. So there is some pattern to the scum names, isn't there? When you're dead, I'm going to use this quote as the spear with which I stab TS. Probably while shouting, "Eets'a you, mafia!"
Didn't Chris claim something different from the name he flipped? I don't quite recall, but that would seem to imply if there was a name flavor, both teams likely have false claims.
Still don't get it. This all still reads as Dota having a cunning plan which he's inexperienced enough to not realize will likely lead to nothing. His post still reflects that to my eyes.
When you ask if people object to a name claim, I think most people can safety assume they want to have a name claim. When that starts happening (for whatever reason), and someone got angry about it (i think it was Axel), his response came off immediately as defensive.
Begging the question. "He's doing something that helps the town, but he's scum, so he's only doing it to pretend to be town." What if he's just town? Again, Occam's Razor - newb townie coming up with intricate schemes for "breaking" the game makes a lot more sense than what you're suggesting he is, which is some sort of idiot-savant mafia, vacillating wildly between awful plays and Sir Chris-level brilliance. That doesn't make sense, GJ!
New Law: GJ's law: At least once per game, someone will ask for some sort of partial claim. All I am saying is that it looks like busy work, that doesn't actually do anything. Attempting to "break the set-up" is something done by newbies and vetreans alike. I am not saying he is a mastermind, only that he is posting non-content, and trying to make it look like he is doing townie things.
"Immediately" belies the fact that two (real-world) days and a hundred posts passed between the vote and this moment. And again, where's the scum motivation? Lynching tom is good for both scum teams, because it's a wasted lynch. Caution suggests town, not scum.
Immediately was perhaps the wrong word. What I implied was the post after his "will go back to Tom" became a "why bother with a lynch".
And your point is? At this moment, I believe imab was lying, too.
Wait for it.
Also could go either way, as Day 3 ably demonstrates; we've all gone back and forth on imab and his wacky, wacky ability. And again, where's the scum motivation? If imab is town and Dota scum, wouldn't Dota have all the reason in the world to jump on imab's throat? Unless you're suggesting they're somehow scum-buddies?! Because that doesn't make any sense at all!
How is that mindset not a windmill slam vote IMAB, if he actually felt that way? Even before Tom was confirmed neutral (he could have in theory still flipped a scum team when his post was made). Tom not lying about his role should have cemented his belief from before, what stopped him?
Misrepresentation. Dota's quote clearly indicates he was only holding off voting because Wildfire was already at L-2 and he didn't want to put him in lynch range before his time. Note that the quoted post was from three (real-world) days prior.
Also, townie points for Dota, because his question to TS is a good one in retrospect. TS definitely does seem like he was setting up multiple townie lynches.
He quoted himself. He wanted to show that he actually said he would be voting Wildfire when "three days later" he would jump on.
To your second point, TS was obviously favoring Etr as scum. The question seemed obvious, and after he answers it, Dota never actually follows through or acknowledges TS.
Hadn't I already claimed by that point? And hadn't Nacho already acknowledged that Zionite's ability and mine were similar? Dota's statement is just fine.
I know you are a mirror of Zionite, but did you actually claim what your gift did at this stage?
(a) What's your point? Or did you just want to step in to defend TS's honor?
(b) Dota doesn't know what the ability is, so he's asking someone who does.
It does look like he is trying to catch TS here, between this post and his last. Fair point.
We've been over this, but hopefully this PBPA solidifies the clear fact that Dota is new at this and absolutely one to make this kind of blunder. More to the point, it makes no sense for him to come clean about it if he was scum - after all, if he "failed" to save one of his targets, it's not like the target would be alive to claim to have been the target, and he could try to spin another story.
He knew the role well enough to realize it was a role more often than not on the scum team, and then claim a role that comes off as more town.
In short, this looks bad, but without tapping into the motivation for it, I think it's an innocent mistake. Based on all of the above, I'm more than happy to defend Dota to the death on this one.
*snorts*
Tl;dr this is a horrible case built on faulty logic, loaded language, and an utter failure to even try to explain Dota's motivation for pretty much anything. This is a case I'd only expect GJ to make as a last-ditch effort to get Dota.
You took every single point in a vacuum. Do you think if I were to case Sir Chris, and asked every single person here to pretend you don't know he is a werewolf, every post of his would scream "lynch dis scum"? My general points towards him would be:
1). Bad voting interactions with Chris (hence why I think he flips werewolf)
2). Non-interest in the people he is voting for.
3). Ghosting (posting enough to not be called lurking, but not posting anything of value).
4). Dishonest twisting of words (probably the weakest point, as I could see the confusion in one case).
@ Nacho: What about the fact that EtR was OceanBlack? The latter I read as very townie, and nothing I've seen from EtR has really displaced that feeling.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Apropos of nothing: for the love of god, Gentleman Johnny, my name is spelled with an X, not a Z. I take it you play a lot of League of Legends?
Spoilered.
Yes, this one post is what I am suspicious about. You got me. Tell me why town would be speculating that hard about a set-up with ~5% information about the full setup?
Sarcasm. Splendid. This will be a fun exercise. (That was sarcasm.)
I assume you highlighted posts you found suspicious, since there are a lot of them you excluded.
Town and scum speculate about setups all the time, especially in complex setups like two-scum-team games, and Dota's behavior has shown a general impulse toward constant unbased speculation. That appears to be his character.
Trying to push a role that literally can't be scum reads town to you?
Yeah. It's a position a scum would unlikely stand by in the first place, for the same obvious reason, which makes the original position moot (since, among other things, he's new), but even a baby scum knows that when people look askance at your positions, you probably shouldn't double-down on those positions.
By itself? You're right.
Right, but see, this is a synecdoche for your entire case. You just assume that sheer accumulation of "maybe-suspicious" behavior amounts to a solid case. It's not a numbers game, GJ, it's a motivations game. Your case is littered with little bits where you gave little to no explanation of why we should care about the comment, apparently on the theory that all we should care about is that you care about it. It suggests intellectual laziness at the least and scumminess at the worst, and I trust you to be smart enough not to have tripped into the former.
You missed the point. He jumps on to Tom for memory (no issue at this stage for not bringing it up). tom posts 2-3 times and doesn't even address this new vote, he says nothing else to Tom and moves on to Rodemy.
And I'm saying that's just conjecture that doesn't trump another perfectly legitimate explanation that also doesn't require imputing conspiratorial thinking to simple caprice.
If what a player is representing doesn't match what is coming out of their message, is in fact weird, and scummy.
No it does not! Weird does not equal scummy! Weird is *correlated* with insidious, which is *correlated* with scummy, but you haven't even tried laying out the logical steps from A to C, you're just waving wildly in the general area.
And for that matter, you cut out the part of my quote that again says the same thing as above - there's an easy way to read his comments as internally consistent which doesn't require him to be scum. You can't just pick the darkest interpretation; you have to prove that alternate interpretations are less legitimate. The fact that you abridged my quote suggests you can't actually say Dota didn't think Rodemy was suggesting Nacho governor tom, you just want to stir up a big ol' cloud of doubt.
He has mentioned at least on either time before he is a newbie. I don't think the context adds a ton to either alignment, and he could have made this post as town or scum.
But you're arguing he's scum, right? So why even quote it, if it's a null tell?
It adds to the situation that he isn't focused (which could be personal trait). Most people, I can imagine have an idea town or scum, expert or newbie of the types of his reaction, what was his reaction there? Or was he just posting to post? Was he expecting people to re-question IMAB?
I dunno, you tell me. I'm starting to get the sense that a lot of this case is you throwing up your hands and saying "I don't get it, so it must be illicit". True or false? Because if true, a lot of your case dissolves into null tells, for the very reason you're admitting to right here.
All this post was making was that if Dota is scum, he is likely a werewolf. There was a post of his that was made to Hunt that I didn't include, and that looked more believable (meaning, I don't think Dota is a mafia with hunt). His Chris interactions looked more buddy buddy.
So your point is he's not a mafia. Glad we cleared that up!
Look, you've got two choices here, rhetorically. Either you aren't using this as proof that he's a werewolf, which means it's pointless, or you are using it as proof he's a werewolf, which is gut-wrenchingly bad guilt by association/imputation of skill to a new player comparable to a top-rate player/etc. Take your pick. Either way, another big chunk of your case falls away right here, as specious or facile.
I can hear it in your voice. You don't believe this nonsense either. It's okay. You're just doing your job.
You can't tell me you can't read the hesitation and awkwardness when he says " I guess it does look like I'm defending Zionite, if you consider my discussion with TS earlier on this page." I could see your point if you were arguing this was more of a newbie tell, but "scum hunting mindset"? Really[quote]
We're talking past the matter. The entire point of the exchange was Zionite's original response to tomsloger's question in 546 about "enemy of my enemy" logic. At the time, Dota was suspicious of tom, and I read these two (Dota) posts as being about him trying to put a wedge in Zionite's logic, on the belief that tomsloger is scum whom Zionite is trying to clear (either innocently or not).
It all boils down to a part of Dota's quote (in 613) which you conveniently abridged: "...but there as well I'm just trying to point out a flawed argument. Seems to be a few where Zionite is concerned...". That makes perfect sense. Targeting Zionite's logic is a way to bolster his claim against tom. That sounds like reasonable scum-hunting to me.
[quote]Nacho makes a point about Tom, scum point about Chris, Dota jumps at the opportunity. My point is that he is not doing a ton of questioning or interacting with anyone he is willing to vote.
You really need to proofread your comments if they're gonna be like this. Seriously, there're floating pronouns and missing words everywhere.
This is another one that could go either way, though I admit it's closer. The way I read the post, the unvote is a response to Nacho's closing comment, which is "Tom is the only player I'd currently pardon if lynched". Based on Dota's fear of no-lynching demonstrated earlier, he probably just unvoted because there's no point anymore. Again, there's not really anything in the text of his post to say that your reading is more convincing or reasonable than any other, even giving you the benefit of considerable doubt.
But the other comment, "not doing a ton of questioning or interacting with anyone he is willing to vote", is clearly wrong, both from the post you cite and in general. Indeed, just two of his posts later, in 645, he's voting Jobie and asking him tough questions. That doesn't sound like someone trying to vote clandestinely.
Yeah, I didn't care about the point too much, hence the read it your self. The fact that too many players use PR as both "power role" and "posting restriction" doesn't help. I brought it up as more of a pattern point, but this could have happened to him, regardless of alignment.
Well, voop! Into the dumpster.
I don't think that works with a newbie. When I was scum in basics, I explain why it looks bad.
Well, then we're gonna have to agree to disagree on your crazy coaching conspiracy theory.
I typed my responses as I read them. I didn't have a conclusion in mind, although I did enter the read with a leaning scum read. Hell, even the skim read, I was leaning scum, until realizing he was a PR claim.
And so what, your case is basically just about him ******* up the jailkeeper thing, and all these "maybe yes, maybe nos"? That's it? Because those aren't good reasons!
Jobie wasn't a really hot wagon at the time. Did he actually want to push him, or just look busy?
I dunno, you tell me! Isn't your job supposed to be proving your theory and by extension your vote is well-reasoned?
What you are leaving out is that a lot of people displayed suspicion of Necarg, and Chris was better, but wasn't exactly radiating town vibes himself. Also, Rhand in xkcd did the exact same thing as scum: immediately bandwagoned Kami as the 2nd vote on his wagon whom not only was almost nobody else reading scum, but people were actually calling his tells "town".
I'm not leaving it out, because I was the one at the tip of the spear on Sir Chris, and I was basically alone the whole goddamn time! Even when people agreed with my PBPA, they said, "oh, but it's Chris, let's just see what happens".
And again, you're not telling me why Dota would do that, just that it's conceivable *someone* would do that. As we've repeatedly acknowledged, he's not just someone. He's the kind of person who thinks flavor claims and careful analysis of team compositions will somehow break one of Iso's games right down the middle. That is, he's not exactly a tactical wizard. But your scum theory of him falls apart the instant we acknowledge it makes no sense for Dota to act in the way you're implying if he were scum!
There isn't one. Just for reference.
Thanks for helping?
Didn't Chris claim something different from the name he flipped? I don't quite recall, but that would seem to imply if there was a name flavor, both teams likely have false claims.
He claimed an abbreviated version of the same name. Honestly, we should have thought more about it, considering "Kate" isn't an Italian name. That makes me think the scum do not have false name claims. Still totally think you just slipped there.
When you ask if people object to a name claim, I think most people can safety assume they want to have a name claim.
Does not compute.
New Law: GJ's law: At least once per game, someone will ask for some sort of partial claim. All I am saying is that it looks like busy work, that doesn't actually do anything. Attempting to "break the set-up" is something done by newbies and vetreans alike. I am not saying he is a mastermind, only that he is posting non-content, and trying to make it look like he is doing townie things.
New law: Xyre's Law: GJ's law imputes nothing into the alignment of people asking for partial claims.
At least mine is based on empirical evidence. I've seen townies and scum alike do this with no pattern among the primes. It all goes down to who the player is and/or what they think will help them.
More to the point, though, your argument has a big gap. Let's break it down to a simple syllogism:
A. Getting flavor claims is something worthless
B. Only scum do worthless things
C. Ergo, someone who asks for flavor claims is scum.
The problem is that B is simply false. Townies do stupid things all the time, especially when they mistakenly think the stupid thing will be useful.
Immediately was perhaps the wrong word. What I implied was the post after his "will go back to Tom" became a "why bother with a lynch".
And again, since he knew tom wasn't on his team, per your theory, why not just kill him?
How is that mindset not a windmill slam vote IMAB, if he actually felt that way? Even before Tom was confirmed neutral (he could have in theory still flipped a scum team when his post was made). Tom not lying about his role should have cemented his belief from before, what stopped him?
Because there was enough gray space to create doubt. He was, after all, an assassin, and tom was shifty.
Do you think imab is telling the truth about his ability? It seems like he wasn't. So why aren't you casing/voting him?
He quoted himself. He wanted to show that he actually said he would be voting Wildfire when "three days later" he would jump on.
To your second point, TS was obviously favoring Etr as scum. The question seemed obvious, and after he answers it, Dota never actually follows through or acknowledges TS.
The day "quoting yourself" is a bona fide scum tell is the day I eat my iPhone.
And my point is based on the fact that I think EtR is town. Ergo, TS was trying to set up two consecutive town lynches. Dota was skeptical of that, which he was right to be. Nothing more than that. I don't actually care whether he follows up or not, because that has less of a bearing on his motivation. Maybe he just decided the answer was OK? Who knows.
I know you are a mirror of Zionite, but did you actually claim what your gift did at this stage?
Yep. I remember now, I claimed Day 3. The mafia and werewolves had to choose between killing Zionite or me, and ended up double-tapping him. The jailing bit didn't come up until Day 4, in the context of Nacho getting blocked.
You took every single point in a vacuum.
Uh, no, that was you. I was just following your methods, cap'n.
Putting this one outside the spoiler for the consuming public:
Do you think if I were to case Sir Chris, and asked every single person here to pretend you don't know he is a werewolf, every post of his would scream "lynch dis scum"? My general points towards him would be:
1). Bad voting interactions with Chris (hence why I think he flips werewolf)
2). Non-interest in the people he is voting for.
3). Ghosting (posting enough to not be called lurking, but not posting anything of value).
4). Dishonest twisting of words (probably the weakest point, as I could see the confusion in one case).
Right, but my point is your case is so flimsy that you have almost nothing whatsoever that even gets over the meager, meager hurdle of "could be reasonably said by a scum".
(1) is bunk, because the "voting interactions" are based almost entirely on guilt-by-association, the theory that he bussed his scum buddy with almost no pressure in play because he's both a new player and a tactical genius, and other circumstantial nonsense.
(2) is bunk, because you glossed over all the times he did actually ask questions of and/or critically analyze the people he voted for, and because this argument requires believing that only scum do this.
(3) is bunk, and you know it. The very fact that we've churned out four massive quote walls about it is enough to prove he's present, active, and prominent.
(4) is bunk, for all the reasons exhaustively indicated.
And this is setting aside the far greater point that none of these are particularized to him; they're all just "scum often do X" points, devoid of any particular motivation analysis or anything else to suggest even a modicum of critical insight.
*And* this is setting aside the gaping logical holes, the many equivocations and null tells, and let's not forget the scum slip.
In sum, I decree this case to be utter tripe.
I'll read your next response, but forgive me if I don't reply; I don't have hours of my life to give over to this anymore. I'll see you at the gallows.
Trying to push a role that literally can't be scum reads town to you?
Yeah. It's a position a scum would unlikely stand by in the first place, for the same obvious reason, which makes the original position moot (since, among other things, he's new), but even a baby scum knows that when people look askance at your positions, you probably shouldn't double-down on those positions.
And yet Xyre isn't townreading me even though I pushed Nachomamma longer than anyone and I'm still pushing "OBVTOWN" xyre. Right Xyre? You believe yourself to be confirmed town and I'm doing my damndest to push your wagon. Why aren't you townreading me for pushing you, a person you believe cannot be scum because of your role?
Right, but see, this is a synecdoche for your entire case. You just assume that sheer accumulation of "maybe-suspicious" behavior amounts to a solid case. It's not a numbers game, GJ, it's a motivations game. Your case is littered with little bits where you gave little to no explanation of why we should care about the comment, apparently on the theory that all we should care about is that you care about it. It suggests intellectual laziness at the least and scumminess at the worst, and I trust you to be smart enough not to have tripped into the former.
Speaking of intellectual laziness. Xyre thought I was mafia even though tomsloger investigated me as not mafia. Now he thinks I'm a werewolf for no explained reason at all. Even though he and I both caught on to the newbie replace out scumtell and were scumreading Sir Chris for almost the exact same reasons.
We're talking past the matter. The entire point of the exchange was Zionite's original response to tomsloger's question in 546 about "enemy of my enemy" logic
Speaking of zionite...if Xyre's role is supposed to be the exact same as Zion's why was Xyre scumreading Zion. Shouldn't zion have been confirmed town to Xyre?
Because there was enough gray space to create doubt. He was, after all, an assassin, and tom was shifty.
Tom was shifty? My how the winds change. Xyre was begging Nacho to pardon "shifty" Tom during twilight of day 2.
Quote from Xyre And DoTArchon In The Scumchat» »
Xyre:So You roleblock Nacho to prevent him from WW clearing IMAB then we team up with the mafia to push through the lynch so he can't get confirmed tonight.
DoTA: Sounds like a plan. If I come under pressure make a garbage towncase for me 'kay?
Uh, hi, imabusinessman. Is this just gonna be whenever I'm talking to someone you're gonna show up to cause me some unrelated grief? Because that's going to make my dating life really difficult.
And yet Xyre isn't townreading me even though I pushed Nachomamma longer than anyone and I'm still pushing "OBVTOWN" xyre. Right Xyre? You believe yourself to be confirmed town and I'm doing my damndest to push your wagon. Why aren't you townreading me for pushing you, a person you believe cannot be scum because of your role?
You misunderstand my point. Pushing likely townies doesn't disclaim scumminess, per se. The difference is that a mafia governor is not a role that exists; it breaks a fundamental rule of game design, which is that the town should have the final say in deciding their lynch, even if the mafia get to screw around with it a bit. Anyone who commits to that argument is insane, will immediately be told they're insane, and should they continue to commit to that bit, is probably too insane to be sneaky enough to be a mafia. Call it the "either you're town, or you're so insane that you're going to singlehandedly destroy the mafia, so we might as well leave you alive" rule. I know that doesn't abbreviate well. On that basis, yes, your suspicions of Nacho's claim are a point in your favor.
My role is different because putting it in the hands of scum wouldn't violate a fundamental rule of the game, but (a) it would seriously **** up the balance of a game that already has extra kills flying everywhere, (b) really really make the mafia overpowered relative to the werewolves, and (c) as I've noted before, if I was actually mafia, I would never have given the gifts away to townies; I'd give them to my scum buddies and lie about my role, because the ability is so much better in the mafia's hands.
You seem to be the only person who really doesn't understand this. Let's break out the trusty Occam's Razor. Either:
- Iso is a crazy person (admitted) who submitted an imbalanced setup that got past well-reasoned reviewers and somehow this imbalanced setup has not yet resulted in the mafia absolutely crushing the werewolves, or
- I'm town.
The fact that the simplicity of this dichotomy confuses you really confuses the hell out of me.
Speaking of intellectual laziness. Xyre thought I was mafia even though tomsloger investigated me as not mafia. Now he thinks I'm a werewolf for no explained reason at all. Even though he and I both caught on to the newbie replace out scumtell and were scumreading Sir Chris for almost the exact same reasons.
I think you're scum based on your scummy behavior and the tom fiasco. I believe tom's investigation, ergo you're not mafia, ergo I think you're a werewolf. Plus it makes it a lot easier to explain your false claim, since a werewolf could easily fake investigation results for seers. Plus plus I still have an inkling that there's something to this crazy flavor gaming jibber-jabber, and also your interactions with Antny suggest a scum pairing and the two of you fit better with Sir Chris than Huntzilla.
Tom was shifty? My how the winds change. Xyre was begging Nacho to pardon "shifty" Tom during twilight of day 2.
I thought he was town and shifty. Even I can admit that people were reasonable in suspecting him; I just thought he was more likely playing badly than being genuinely insidious. Turns out I was right. (For many years playing mafia on this site, I was frequently an early lynch because I had an erratic style, so I have a soft spot for players who subconsciously brush other people the wrong way regardless of their alignment.)
[url=http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/645040-mafia-classic-wolves-vs-mafia-day-4-once-revered?page=36#c1761]Imabusinessman - 1761[/url]
Nachomamma practically confirmed town for pushing for both Huntzilla and Sir Chris very strongly. Need to do some wagon/and game analysis tomorrow for sure.
[url=http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/645040-mafia-classic-wolves-vs-mafia-day-4-once-revered?page=36#c1761]Imabusinessman - 1761[/url]
Nachomamma practically confirmed town for pushing for both Huntzilla and Sir Chris very strongly. Need to do some wagon/and game analysis tomorrow for sure.
Nachomamma practically confirmed town for pushing for both Huntzilla and Sir Chris very strongly. Need to do some wagon/and game analysis tomorrow for sure.
Yo IAMB, I am pretty sure I keep asking and pretty sure you keep ignoring, but please to explain how:
(1) Tom cleared you of being Mafia, and
(2) Tom lied when he said that I had a gun,
are in any way compatible positions, and/or why you seem to think the one "clears" you but the other does not condemn you.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
[url=http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/645040-mafia-classic-wolves-vs-mafia-day-4-once-revered?page=36#c1761]Imabusinessman - 1761[/url]
Nachomamma practically confirmed town for pushing for both Huntzilla and Sir Chris very strongly. Need to do some wagon/and game analysis tomorrow for sure.
DoT is not werewolf. Could still be mafia though.
Late night brain fart. I've clearly been stating Xyre is WW cleared and on the Mafia team.
@ Nacho: What about the fact that EtR was OceanBlack? The latter I read as very townie, and nothing I've seen from EtR has really displaced that feeling.
Has anything EtR posted looked town?
OB looked town, sure, but he was in the game for 6 pages. People can look town for 6 pages, especially when they can scum hunt genuinely. How long does the slot slide on OB's play?
Yo IAMB, I am pretty sure I keep asking and pretty sure you keep ignoring, but please to explain how:
(1) Tom cleared you of being Mafia, and
(2) Tom lied when he said that I had a gun,
are in any way compatible positions, and/or why you seem to think the one "clears" you but the other does not condemn you.
Thank you for your cooperation.
If Tom lied about me being Mafia he would have been lynched the next day. However once I stated my result on him he was lynched. Tom then lied about not having a gun to pursue a spite lynch.. And you can tell he lied because he denied having a gun before he even "contacted the mod", which is something he obviously didn't do in reality.
There is basically no way in hell that DoT is scum. It doesn't actually make sense for scum to claim the Jailkeeper --> Roleblock thing on me; he wasn't caught out by his Jailkeeper claim, and the random paranoia of me because people aren't questioning me enough is well within the range of his town game but not so much within the range of his scum game.
I don't remember anyone claiming that Axelrod had a gun. Am I misreading this argument?
@Xyre: That was the most artful dodge of my question to you that I have ever seen.
When someone posts a case, if they're scum, it's going to be riddled with facts and falseties. What you're saying is that GJ's case was 100% rubbish? Not a single thing in his case you agree with? Not even a "meh, that point is dumb" or "that's not alignment indicative." Your bull***** ride is over.
@Xyre: That was the most artful dodge of my question to you that I have ever seen.
When someone posts a case, if they're scum, it's going to be riddled with facts and falseties. What you're saying is that GJ's case was 100% rubbish? Not a single thing in his case you agree with? Not even a "meh, that point is dumb" or "that's not alignment indicative." Your bull***** ride is over.
Vote Xyre
Xyre has played like ***** toDay but this vote is not useful right now.
I don't remember anyone claiming that Axelrod had a gun. Am I misreading this argument?
@Xyre: That was the most artful dodge of my question to you that I have ever seen.
When someone posts a case, if they're scum, it's going to be riddled with facts and falseties. What you're saying is that GJ's case was 100% rubbish? Not a single thing in his case you agree with? Not even a "meh, that point is dumb" or "that's not alignment indicative." Your bull***** ride is over.
Vote Xyre
No, I'm not saying that! Christ. You are seriously the worst good mafia player on this site, with your awful drive-by antics.
If you read the entire PBPA interaction, you'll see a lot of Gentleman Johnny's conclusions are (stated) "this post is weird" and (unstated) "this cumulative weirdness is scummy". Broadly speaking, I agree with the former - Dota says a good number of weird things. But my response was all about teasing those threads apart and pointing out how (a) a lot of the weird things he says have perfectly innocent alternate explanations and (b) weirdness alone is not scummy. And when he does make the connection between weirdness and scummy, rather than just letting it hang in the air like a fart, he often employs strained logic or makes unsupported assumptions about gameplay.
My point is that GJ has made a paper tiger case on Dota - superficially reasonable, but flat and lifeless when you get deep into it. That's exactly what I said to you, and that's exactly what you say scum do. So why on earth do you not understand that?!
@ Nacho: What about the fact that EtR was OceanBlack? The latter I read as very townie, and nothing I've seen from EtR has really displaced that feeling.
Has anything EtR posted looked town?
OB looked town, sure, but he was in the game for 6 pages. People can look town for 6 pages, especially when they can scum hunt genuinely. How long does the slot slide on OB's play?
In my book, based on the sheer craziness of the original's play, only until the replacement does something undeniably scummy. But fine, let's do a stripped-down EtR PBPA without the barnacle.
EtR actually came in on post 207. After some earlier housekeeping posts, he comes out the gate in 259 with some good analysis of the game so far. But scum can reread too, so only a small town point for substantial effort. (Compare him with Antny's play this game, though, and it stands out immediately.) What follow are a barrage of questions-only posts, which also could go either way.
His first big critical analyses come in 336, and I find myself agreeing with a lot of them. His comment about Dota's phrasing is another example where I'd say, as with GJ's case generally, "yeah, that's weird, but I can believe he said it innocenetly", but again I think it's a valid point taken alone. The vote on Antny for "hopping around to where ever you think something will catch fire with weak reasoning" is a pretty concise summary of the main reason I think Antny is scum, so points there. And I agree with his breakdown of TS's semi-PBPAs, especially as explicated in 399. Overall, I'm really liking EtR at this moment.
(His subsequent unvote of Antny is bothersome - why does every vote have to serve a purpose? It seems like scum more than town are worried about leaving votes floating around in the ether - but that could just be personal style. And he votes for TS shortly thereafter, claiming "I wanted to hear more from Dota", which explains the Antny unvote a bit more but is itself a bit of a thin justification.)
Again an insightful comment about Dota in 414. Shows he's thinking fully about motivations and how what people say reflects it. I like that a lot. I also like his even-tempered response to TS's just plain bad answer to the vote (424 and 418, respectively). EtR doesn't look at all to be "playing for his own survival" - quite the opposite in fact. Whereas TS looks eager to slander someone voting for him, which is how I define OMGUS.
Keeps pressing TS for answers to his questions about the PBPA, which I like. He's not tunnelling, i.e. he's not using his pressure on TS as an all-purpose excuse to not contribute other content, but he keeps the pressure on nonetheless in the belief that it will produce useful results. And I like his willingness to consider TS's points on face value re: tomsloger and Zionite.
A bit of hypocrisy in 925, where he chides tomsloger for not giving reasoning for town reads when EtR himself gave a bit town/neutral/scum list where many of the members hadn't actually been substantially addressed in his posts. But the rest of his analysis also sounds generally good.
I don't agree with voting someone based on personal attacks (988), but I can understand the sentiment (there are a bunch of jerks in this game, myself included), so neutral.
1141 is another good point - Sir Chris was getting mighty conciliatory with me at the end (calling me town against my many critics) in the hopes of shaking me off, and EtR catches it.
Entered the Huntzilla wagon with a little trepidation, but I still think a little trepidation was justifiable there, so I'm also not necessarily bothered by it, at least not without any specific suggestion that EtR is mafia.
And that ends Day 1. He only makes one post for a large part of that day, which is concerning. Does EtR claim a lot of unexpected absences regularly as town/scum?
His comment in 1847 about imab following up on supposed slips by Necarg is astute. I'm not sure I totally buy it, but it does have a certain allure - that imab turned a blind eye to his scumbuddy's mistake. His analysis in this post in general also largely makes much sense to me. And I like that he's retracing his steps to the early game, rather than just getting mired in the present. Suggests he's making earnest steps to rectify his absences.
"I'm just looking to hear your reasoning" about this person we both suspect is a little suspicious, since EtR hasn't been saying too much about Dota but has generally seemed to think he's town by this point in the game. I'm less bothered by the "self-consciousness" GJ cites him for in 1855 than the sense that he could just be asking Dota to do the work for him.
His play regarding who targeted me was very solid. I highly doubt he wouldn't just share the information if he were scum. That's all I'm gonna say about that.
And that mostly wraps things up.
So, yeah, I totally still don't understand why people find EtR scum. Other than a couple of weird things he's said, the only thing about him that truly stood out as suspicious were his sheer number of claimed absences (there was a former player, Wrath of DoG, who cited excuses far more readily as scum than town), but those do little to displace my general satisfaction with the long analytical posts he does end up offering.
I'd compare him substantially to Axelrod - asks a lot of probing questions, and only occasionally makes something of them. It's the hang-out-a-bunch-of-lines approach, and I find it's generally town provided there's solid follow-through and actual critical analysis, and not just endless line-hanging to avoid actually offering a solid opinion. EtR has shown he asks the questions looking for useful answers, and has offered solid and well-reasoned opinions consistently.
Definitely town, definitely still ride-or-die on him.
At this point, I've reread pretty much everybody except Seppel and Nacho (either directly or in responding to another PBPA), and am still completely satisfied with saying that imab, Antny, TS, and GJ are the last four scum. I wish to vote one of the former two today, and will not vote for anyone not on this list.
There is basically no way in hell that DoT is scum. It doesn't actually make sense for scum to claim the Jailkeeper --> Roleblock thing on me; he wasn't caught out by his Jailkeeper claim, and the random paranoia of me because people aren't questioning me enough is well within the range of his town game but not so much within the range of his scum game.
Behaviorally, town. My early attack on him showed a side that was sort of a "hey, ease up, I'm town, dude" which is what I'd expect from a newbie. I recall hammering into him pretty hard.
Mechanically, suspect. Claiming jailkeeper then realizing he'd be caught in a lie and reneging to roleblocker is the sign of a nervous newbie scum. And he comes up with that all on his own? Yeah right. Plus, I don't see any other roles that could reasonably interfere with all the power we have.
So, not my preferred lynch, but I'll hammer if absolutely necessary.
I don't remember anyone claiming that Axelrod had a gun. Am I misreading this argument?
@Xyre: That was the most artful dodge of my question to you that I have ever seen.
When someone posts a case, if they're scum, it's going to be riddled with facts and falseties. What you're saying is that GJ's case was 100% rubbish? Not a single thing in his case you agree with? Not even a "meh, that point is dumb" or "that's not alignment indicative." Your bull***** ride is over.
Vote Xyre
No, I'm not saying that! Christ. You are seriously the worst good mafia player on this site, with your awful drive-by antics.
If you read the entire PBPA interaction, you'll see a lot of Gentleman Johnny's conclusions are (stated) "this post is weird" and (unstated) "this cumulative weirdness is scummy". Broadly speaking, I agree with the former - Dota says a good number of weird things. But my response was all about teasing those threads apart and pointing out how (a) a lot of the weird things he says have perfectly innocent alternate explanations and (b) weirdness alone is not scummy. And when he does make the connection between weirdness and scummy, rather than just letting it hang in the air like a fart, he often employs strained logic or makes unsupported assumptions about gameplay.
My point is that GJ has made a paper tiger case on Dota - superficially reasonable, but flat and lifeless when you get deep into it. That's exactly what I said to you, and that's exactly what you say scum do. So why on earth do you not understand that?!
Except that isn't what you did. And you decided to respond to me instead of GJ. As if you've declared yourself the winner of that argument and decided that you don't need to respond to anything.
am still completely satisfied with saying that imab, Antny, TS, and GJ are the last four scum.
How about you humor me and narrow it down to last two scum? You really think this 18-player game game has six scum, two neutrals, with two anti-town kills per night?
Actually, you haven't even thought it, you've just sort of stated it as fact. Which suddenly worries me.
@Everyone: Just as a reminder, we can lynch Xyre and force someone to hammer to get two lynches. And if that person refuses, we lynch them for being scum.
I'll make a real post tomorrow, but fun game: Ctf+f and type in "weird" to find out how many times I actually said it in my case. Protip: Not as often as Xyre claims
(I do play league of legends, and even the way I would verbally think about your name is "zIer".) OoG, I wouldn't mind if you stated how you pronounce your name.
Xyre shouldn't be a lynch until one scum team (preferably werewolves) is wiped out. Then he becomes an optimal lynch if we are on evens, a bad lynch if we are on odds.
I'll make a real post tomorrow, but fun game: Ctf+f and type in "weird" to find out how many times I actually said it in my case. Protip: Not as often as Xyre claims
(I do play league of legends, and even the way I would verbally think about your name is "zIer".) OoG, I wouldn't mind if you stated how you pronounce your name.
That's correct. Think first sound in "xylophone" mixed into "pyre".
And we can play the synonym game all you want; you know what I mean. Anything that sounds wrong but doesn't fall into a clear-cut category of scum-tell. You may not use the exact word often, but the case is full of the concept.
Behaviorally, town. My early attack on him showed a side that was sort of a "hey, ease up, I'm town, dude" which is what I'd expect from a newbie. I recall hammering into him pretty hard.
Mechanically, suspect. Claiming jailkeeper then realizing he'd be caught in a lie and reneging to roleblocker is the sign of a nervous newbie scum. And he comes up with that all on his own? Yeah right. Plus, I don't see any other roles that could reasonably interfere with all the power we have.
So, not my preferred lynch, but I'll hammer if absolutely necessary.
I don't remember anyone claiming that Axelrod had a gun. Am I misreading this argument?
@Xyre: That was the most artful dodge of my question to you that I have ever seen.
When someone posts a case, if they're scum, it's going to be riddled with facts and falseties. What you're saying is that GJ's case was 100% rubbish? Not a single thing in his case you agree with? Not even a "meh, that point is dumb" or "that's not alignment indicative." Your bull***** ride is over.
Vote Xyre
No, I'm not saying that! Christ. You are seriously the worst good mafia player on this site, with your awful drive-by antics.
If you read the entire PBPA interaction, you'll see a lot of Gentleman Johnny's conclusions are (stated) "this post is weird" and (unstated) "this cumulative weirdness is scummy". Broadly speaking, I agree with the former - Dota says a good number of weird things. But my response was all about teasing those threads apart and pointing out how (a) a lot of the weird things he says have perfectly innocent alternate explanations and (b) weirdness alone is not scummy. And when he does make the connection between weirdness and scummy, rather than just letting it hang in the air like a fart, he often employs strained logic or makes unsupported assumptions about gameplay.
My point is that GJ has made a paper tiger case on Dota - superficially reasonable, but flat and lifeless when you get deep into it. That's exactly what I said to you, and that's exactly what you say scum do. So why on earth do you not understand that?!
Except that isn't what you did. And you decided to respond to me instead of GJ. As if you've declared yourself the winner of that argument and decided that you don't need to respond to anything.
What the hell are you talking about?! He replied to my response, and I rebutted in kind. So far, I'm waiting for his riposte to see if there's any worthy disagreement.
am still completely satisfied with saying that imab, Antny, TS, and GJ are the last four scum.
How about you humor me and narrow it down to last two scum? You really think this 18-player game game has six scum, two neutrals, with two anti-town kills per night?
Actually, you haven't even thought it, you've just sort of stated it as fact. Which suddenly worries me.
@Everyone: Just as a reminder, we can lynch Xyre and force someone to hammer to get two lynches. And if that person refuses, we lynch them for being scum.
My inbox is suspiciously lonely.
Gun to the head, I'd say IMAB and Antny are top two. But I highly doubt this game has only four scum, even with the "neutrals" (who really have little bearing on the town-scum balance, because as has been repeatedly noted, they were apparently just townies by a different name). There have been at least three 12-player two-scum-team games on this site, and every one of them was 2/2/8. You're telling me that Iso decided to just dump in six effective townies? I absolutely refuse to believe that.
More to the point, as you've so violently noted on occasion, if there are four surviving scum, we're on the precipice of getting knocked out of this game altogether. So what's the damn point in entertaining the less conservative notion?
Mark my words, Seppel, after this game, I'm going to yell at you something fierce. Imab and TS are jerks who ruin games, and tomsloger is a crazy person who ruins games, but you are a perfectly sane person who has the faculties to play well and yet ruins games with a sense of definite and purposeful indifference. I've spent hours and hours carefully casing throughout this game only to have you piss all over my flowers like an incontinent dachshund, and I've had it. From now on, unless you have something truly useful to say, I'm just going to treat you like imab and throw your posts into my mental "can't give a *****" pile.
It seems as though even with DoTArchon lying during a massclaim and promptly falling back, we aren't going to lynch him. Which for the record, I believe is ridiculous. He was caught in a lie once GJ revealed his role and he backpeddled. Can anyone of you tell me what noob player on his third game would have the thought process to lie about being a jailkeeper when they are a role blocker?
@Nachos: I read your post and can kinda understand your logic, I'm just surprised by the speed at which we had players "claiming".
@Gentleman Johnny: Not sure if the 'Who are you? (Name change)?' was directed at me, but I'll answer anyway so everyone knows.
Hi, I'm new here. Not to MTGS, but to Mafia. This will be my second game, my first is still ongoing on another site (Hi Nachos ) I know most of you from reading through the list of recommended games Iso referred me to when I first approached him about getting into Mafia, and I look forward to playing with all of you
Now back to business.
Correction, his second game at the time this started.
I think it would be naive for anyone to just take your word for it. While the role does seem overpowered in the hands of the mafia, we know nothing yet about the setup of this game. Just off the top of my head:
[Random speculation that should not be taken seriously]
1) Town:12 Mafia:3 Werewolves:3 - The scum teams are each playing a game of 15v3.
2) Town:14 Mafia:2 Werewolves:2 - Seems like town is incredibly powerful in this setup, so maybe give scum powerful roles they wouldn't normally have access to.
3) Town:14 Mafia:3 Werewolves:1 - Start with 1 wolf and give the alpha wolf the infect ability. [/Random speculation that should not be taken seriously]
I'm not trying to start a debate as to the setup, I just think that until we know more we should be careful about blindly believing that someone's role is indicative of their alignment.
IGMEOY Nachos. Your role only gets you so far, your actions will provide the proof.
If DoTA's reasoning is to be believed, why would he not have blocked Nacho on Day 1 when he said he didn't believe him? Also the random "Don''t take me serious but seriously" part of this post bothers me as well.
I don't recall who cased him (I think GJ), but they called out that there was nothing that happened between DoTA voting Tom and Rodemy and the vote looks suspect.
I've only been playing for about 2 months, my first game (a basic at Mafiascum) hasn't even finished yet. I'm trying to keep up with everything happening in here but I'm feeling quite lost. I've read a few older completed games but I'm very much not a 'Meta' person. I keep rereading the thread looking for things I can work with but it's a bit overwhelming when the one thing I do go after sets several people (You, Gentleman Johnny and iamabusinessman (whatever his reasons are...)) after me as scum.
That's how I scumhunt. I find what to me looks like inconsistencies and shine a spotlight on them. Right now I'm too afraid to move on anything else because all I've managed to do in this game so far is look like scum. I do find it odd though that not a single person who has called me scum is voting for me. Why is that?
This again does not read to me as the mindset of someone that would be comfortable running a jailer/roleblock gambit. I believe this speaks to coaching. He also makes a point to call out that he's not comfortable because he's made himself look scummy. This play/behavior changes abruptly mid-way through Day 1. Again, I think it speaks to coaching. In fact, this post is where there was a turn on a dime. I am especially concerned with it being called out.
In this post DoTA unvotes his main scum read (Jobie) who he previously said this about: "I'm not talking about lynching Tom, I'm talking about the claim push. Tom was at L-3 (as you so helpfully pointed out), there was no need for him to claim. Jobie pushing for the claim on the grounds that it will get him night killed or lynched (I still fail to see what a bad claim would be considering we're still in day 1) is an anti-town sentiment. If Jobie isn't scum then he's neutral, because nothing I've seen from him can convince me he's aiming for a town victory." He also moved his vote from Jobie to Sir Chris based on a case from xyre. The same Xyre that DoTA was previously calling a scum read.
So to summarize, DoTA unvotes his main scum read, to vote someone he hasn't mentioned really at all, based on a case presented by someone he called scummy. WAT?
Pushing a mass name claim, because...? He also goes on to push the mass name claim several more times without revealing his. I believe that the scum do not have safe claims and he is using this as a way to find out what claims would be available. In fact, DoTA makes 5 specific posts asking for names before he reveals his name. FIVE. Each time compiling more names of other players.
Why are people claiming their names? Because DoTArchon asked them to?
My instinct is not to give out free information for no good reason. If DoTArchon is telling us that this is going to be beneficial for us in some way, then, maybe? But (1) I have no reason to particularly trust him yet, and (2) even if he's Town, if there's a Town role that benefits from knowing names, it more than stands to reason that there would be scum roles that have a use for the info also, so there's a trade off there.
I just want to know why I]m doing something before I do it. And "this doesn't seem like a big deal" is not a great reason.
Also, @iamb W.T.F? That's some bull right there.
I originally asked if anyone would object to a mass name-claim, and people just started giving the info out. This is in no way role related, just a theory that will definitely benefit town if it pans out.
And thank you Tom for ******* up my theory by laying everything out before I had a majority of the names in...
Yes, my full name is Michaelangelo. We already have Leonardo and Raphael, and April could possibly be April O'Neill also from TMNT.
Kate is a bit of a stretch but a google search brought up the movie Kiss Me Kate, which involves gangsters, and My Cousin Vinny(i.e. Huntzilla), starring Joe Pesci(best known for acting in gangster movies). I needed more info to figure out if that was the connection or if there was something else.
Benito is another one I am unsure of, google brings it up as either Benito mussiolini or Benny the Ball from Topcat. Once again, needed more names to make the connections.
Lacramioara is Romanian for Lily of the Valley, a highly poisonous plant. Romania/Transylvania is a popular location for vampire/werewolf stories.
Vote: Wildfire
And then he uses it to make an awful vote based on flavor? And this is before we have all of the other names.
Unvote: Imabusinessman
Wildfire is at L-2, consider my vote on him when everyone is ready to move on to day 4, don't want to put him in self-hammer range. Waiting for Antny to post his update, and I'd like for the Seppel and TappingStones to give their names if they won't mind.
My notes:
Antny223 - Andrei
Axelrod - Donatello(TMNT)
DoTArchon - Michaelangelo(TMNT)
EtR - Ninjara(TMNT)
Gentleman Johnny - Luigi
Huntz - Cousin Vinny(Mafia)
Imabusinessman - Vladimir
Jobie - Van Helsing(Dracula Neutral)
Nachomamma8 - Casey(TMNT)
Seppel - ???
Sir Chris -Catalina(Alucard Werewolf)
TappingStones - ???
Tomsloger - Ezzio(Assassin's Creed Neutral)
Tordeck - Benito(Town)
Vaimes - April(TMNT Town)
Wildfire393 - Lacramioara(Romanian for Lily of the Valley Werewolf?)
Xyre - Leonardo(TMNT)
Zionite - Raphael(TMNT)
This is what he said about Wildfire 2 posts back "Wildfire - My main issues with Wildfire are his name claim (yes I know flavour gaming is a terrible idea but it's what I have to work with right now, and so far the names have made sense with the flips) and his 180 on Imab. Early in the day he seemed on the fence about Imab, but once the wagon gained traction he started hard scumreading Imab based on interaction analysis with Sir Chris. I did a count earlier, Imab reached L-1 before Nachos made his post and people started unvoting."
Why the sudden move to WIldfire? Wildfire was voting the person that DoTA just unvoted...
It seems as though even with DoTArchon lying during a massclaim and promptly falling back, we aren't going to lynch him. Which for the record, I believe is ridiculous. He was caught in a lie once GJ revealed his role and he backpeddled. Can anyone of you tell me what noob player on his third game would have the thought process to lie about being a jailkeeper when they are a role blocker?
Uh... he wouldn't? Ergo he's not lying?
I'm not sure what you want me to tell you here, except I know I've misread role PMs before, it's a pretty common thing, and the fact that he had no reason to backtrack on his claim if it was a lie should be pretty dispositive. Especially the last one - after all, the only people who could catch him in his lie would be the other scum team shooting his target, and the odds of that happening are low if he picks his targets correctly.
You're just assuming all mistakes are lies, and all lies are proof of insidious intent. Both of those assumptions are demonstrably false.
Correction, his second game at the time this started.
And what's your point? He's not entirely a newb, ergo we can't ascribe to him any benefit of the doubt for being a newb?
If DoTA's reasoning is to be believed, why would he not have blocked Nacho on Day 1 when he said he didn't believe him? Also the random "Don''t take me serious but seriously" part of this post bothers me as well.
I don't recall who cased him (I think GJ), but they called out that there was nothing that happened between DoTA voting Tom and Rodemy and the vote looks suspect.
If memory serves (which might be wrong, because I'm holding in a lot of information), Dota's opinion changed on Nacho over the course of the thousand-post Day 1. Also, could someone remind me who Dota did claim to block on the other days?
And I responded to GJ's point already, so refer to my point there.
This again does not read to me as the mindset of someone that would be comfortable running a jailer/roleblock gambit. I believe this speaks to coaching.
Begs the ******* question. Of course it doesn't point to him running a gambit, because HE'S NOT SCUM. AUGHHHH. Why do you have to jump immediately to the more complicated, less probable, totally imaginary explanation for his behavior?!
He also moved his vote from Jobie to Sir Chris based on a case from xyre. The same Xyre that DoTA was previously calling a scum read.
So to summarize, DoTA unvotes his main scum read, to vote someone he hasn't mentioned really at all, based on a case presented by someone he called scummy. WAT?
It was a good case! I caught the uncatchable man. Give me a little credit.
Once a-*******-gain, we're looking at two situations. You tell me which is more plausible:
- Dota's scumbuddies convinced him to jump onto a wagon almost nobody supported started by someone whom people broadly thought was scum because it would make him look more convincingly townie, or
- Dota agreed with my points and voted off them.
Occam's Razor, people! Why do you have to invoke conspiratorial thinking to get to your conclusions? And why, for the love of god, are you and GJ assuming that Dota, whom we can all admit is a very inexperienced player, nonetheless is capable of pulling off this sort of aggressive scum move, even with someone telling him to do it! I've never seen coaching that could turn a new player into a Sir Chris. Never once. Because it's never happened.
Also, I find it very interesting that nobody's asked an elementary question. Let's show the scum's hand:
ISO: Are the scum allowed to chat at night, or at any time, in their quicktopics?
It's not defined either way in the rules. The fact that you and GJ have fixated on this coaching thing without actually knowing whether or not it could happen reads to me like a scum slip by one or maybe both of you.
Pushing a mass name claim, because...?
New players think those are good ideas. You're falling down the same wormhole as GJ of "I can't explain this, ergo it must be scum-motivated", and it's going to make it a lot harder for me to defend you. You're on my ride-or-die list, so I will, but I kind of hate you for it.
Which it didn't.
Never say never. My TMNT theory is still consistent with the likely scum list.
And then he uses it to make an awful vote based on flavor? And this is before we have all of the other names.
Unclean hands. You and I were both on Wildfire too. We were wrong. In a different way than he was wrong, but being wrong != being scum.
More information gathering.
Motivation motivation motivation.
This is what he said about Wildfire 2 posts back "Wildfire - My main issues with Wildfire are his name claim (yes I know flavour gaming is a terrible idea but it's what I have to work with right now, and so far the names have made sense with the flips) and his 180 on Imab. Early in the day he seemed on the fence about Imab, but once the wagon gained traction he started hard scumreading Imab based on interaction analysis with Sir Chris. I did a count earlier, Imab reached L-1 before Nachos made his post and people started unvoting."
Why the sudden move to WIldfire? Wildfire was voting the person that DoTA just unvoted...
I agree that Dota's reasoning makes sense in a vacuum - he thought Wildfire was acting opportunistically. And again, the fact that he was wrong with his flavor ideas doesn't mean he was wrong-minded in pursuing them. Motivation motivation motivation.
This is absolute balogna.
You're wrong. You're so wrong, man.
More information gathering. DoTA also has a lot of list making posts, which I remember being a scumtell that I got caught for a long time ago.
Motivation?
I'm signing off for the night. This whole thing is driving me insane. I'm absolutely certain of my theories, and will fight to protect Dota to the ends of the earth, so buckle up for a long slog or actually listen to what I'm telling you for a change. Please. I'm begging you. I don't want to have to write anymore of these posts. But I will.
I have something important to say: I got word back from Iso. In the case that we lynch Xyre and Nacho pardons Xyre, the hammerer won't die. Because there's no lynch. Even though there's a hammer vote.
No, it really just comes down to time. Right now, I'm on vacation meaning my schedule clearer.
The thing is, I'm pretty sure this happened after you started townreading me so strongly, but I'll have to go back and check at some point.
I also asked you about what happened if Xyre is hammered/pardoned and whether we can use that as an additional lynch but I realise now that wouldn't work because we still end the day so you can ignore it.
vote Dota
The lynch I want today is Dota. I don't buy his explanation for blocking Nacho. If people are still unsure of imab, then we should agree that someone with a werewolf killing bullet shoots him tonight to resolve the issue once and for all. Lynching him when we have a means to clear him/kill him is just dumb.
I would still support either an EtR lynch (especially since he is playing coy on the one piece information that could confirm his role) or TS.
I'm not interested in lynching any of Xyre, GJ, Nacho or imab today.
Responding to a case against me vs. asking Xyre to stop making the town lose or to explain to the town why he is sabotaging us are two very, VERY different things.
Interesting that you are ok lynching someone who has the same reads as you (me).
It does actually. Rigid mindsets are hard for me to accept. I've heard it's often age-related but it happens in us younger folk as well. I am disappointed that you don't even allow a situation to exist where certain scum reads can be realized as town. It's like you're aware that you might be wed to a mislynch and you wont let any facts get into the way of that.
Your "big post" about me was universally called rubbish. That doesn't make you bat an eye. You think a scum player is going to continually beg you to bring a case against them? As scum that just has no margin for profit. Wouldn't scum just pursue a lynch or sit back? Why am I trying to get you to see the light? Not like having you townread me would help me with anyone else. The others have written you often. I at least asked to hear your argument.
Put yourself back together man.
First, how old do you think I am for crying out loud?
Second, I am more than happy to reassess a read when I have a reason to. I simply haven't seen a reason to yet.
Your essentially answering your own question here. Your keen to get me to townread you. There's the motivation. I have asked Xyre to explain his stance. He has refused. I'd ask Seppel, but he's Seppel and I doubt he'll go into detail either. No one else has commented on it as far as I recall.
If people want to convince me you're town, I am prepared to listen. Beyond that, I make no guarantees.
I can definitely. I have been leaning scum on dota for a while, going back and forth since day 1. When I was looking over him a few days ago, I was about to label him just lean scum, and then I saw the claim. Two protective roles in this set-up is not much of a stretch, especially considering how many investigative roles are floating around (neutrals might as well have been town). Etr I really haven't paid too much attention to. There was that one slip day 1 that everyone piled on because something about "caring about the seer part" or something that looked soft as *****, but that was about it.
I think looking for interactions would be rough. Would you rather just tackle Etr, and I'll case dota?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Will do. I'll be posting about etr as soon as I finish the interactions analysis. Looks like we are kind of alone here as Nacho is who knows where and Xyre is throwing the game.
Can everyone just pick someone to case? It's ridiculous how severely limited my time is.I was going to answer you, but on reflection, I don't see TS actually calling you scum in this exchange.
@TS, do you actually think Antny is scum, or are you just waving a big stick around and seeing what falls out of the tree?
The conversation was never about whether Antny was scum. I asked for his case on me as he has consistently scum read me without an argument. We got the case, everyone said it was bad and I'm trying to figure out what's going on up in that head of his. He doesn't seem like scum to me, I mentioned before that i don't think scum play this poorly. Tunneling town is my guess. But he isn't off my radar obviously.
Well, you never answered what you meant either. Exactly what kind of a joke was it? I am missing the funny. Still.
I think I asked before and no one answered, but are people clearing iamb of being a Mafia because of what Tom said? Or was there something else I'm not remembering?
He says he doesn't want to give info to scum but that was the most vital information he had available to him. If town has LVP Xyre will be getting that award.[/quote]
Where did he do that, exactly?
I'm just going to apologize (again) to everyone for not putting any time into this game. Lately it just seems like there's other things I'd rather be doing. That does not bode well for my Mafia future.
I would imagine that at least one of the people claiming VT is a scum (that would be Anty and TappingStones).
Don't like DOTArchon's lying.
Am sure that someone claiming an ability role is scum. Xyre would be the Mod-sneaky one. EtR hasn't given us anything with his results to make me trust him. GJ's claim does nothing for me one way or the other. Seppel could totally be scum with that role. The only one it's still really hard to imagine as scum is the Governor claim.
I may be leaning DOTArchon now based on the above. I won't vote him until I actually re-read him though, and I don't know what that is going to happen.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I will be requesting a list from each player and vote count after TS and myself finish are respective cases.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
105
He does leave the disclaimer about not taking it seriously, but it is the only post of length that he has made so far in day 1. The last point just seems silly for reasons, followed by a slight job at Nacho. Post really doesn't do anything but speculate, and kind of poke at the idea of maybe pushing Nacho up. It almost feels forced at the end, as if he was unwilling to state town or not auto town.
143
Still hung up about Nacho, after being called out by Seppel.
151
I'm not trying to start a debate as to the setup, I just think that until we know more we should be careful about blindly believing that someone's role is indicative of their alignment.
IGMEOY Nachos. Your role only gets you so far, your actions will provide the proof.[/quote]
Not a bad question to start, since no one else seemingly has a posting restriction.
There are 156 posts at this stage. It shouldn't be that hard to go back and find what Tom said at this stage that struck a cord with you.
He does leave the disclaimer about not taking it seriously, but it is the only post of length that he has made so far in day 1. The last point just seems silly for reasons, followed by a slight job at Nacho. Post really doesn't do anything but speculate, and kind of poke at the idea of maybe pushing Nacho up. It almost feels forced at the end, as if he was unwilling to state town or not auto town.
175
Tom responds a few times, but does not address his vote at all. This is dota's next post after his Tom vote. Doesn't mention why Tom was weird, only that he will now be riding the Rodemy train.
182
Calls out Rodemy for going after Tom, despite being on the same person 30 posts ago. His specific reading of Rodemys "oh govenah" seems like a complete misrep.
252
Handwaves away Seppel's point about being malicious, sticks to his guns about saying he thinks Rodemy meant that he wanted Nacho to test his ability.
300
The only thing I hate more than the low hanging fruit argument, is the I am a newbie argument.
342 (from now on just to speed things around, I will only be linking to the first post of each page, rather than each post. So, when I get to the first post of page 8, it will be hyper linked).
This is a couple hundred posts AFTER we did our little powwow with IMAB's claim. IMAB's last post before this was a vote on Etr, why would you bring this up now, unless you were planning to case IMAB, what point does it make?
400
This actually gives me pause. Even to a newbie, the primary root of suspicioun came from his attempted misrep of Rod/Vaimes. If he was more experienced, I would say this is a purposeful deflection, but I could see this being legit confused about why he is in the spotlight.
410
In response to Sir Chris. Out of his two scum reads, Tom is one of them, and after being pressed, immediately votes Tom. Chris also votes Dota before this post, and if the invitational showed us anything, Sir Chris will bus and bus hard if a teamate even looks remotely scummy.
560
His vote is still on Tom at this stage. From voting Tom, to this post, it comes off really passive for someone who believes he has a caught scum.
613
In response to Axel, the "less about defending Zionite" part just reads wrong to me. It is as if he realized he can't actually push Zionite without looking bad, and wants to salvage the opportunity.
636
Nacho comes in, unvotes off Tom. Has had almost no real interaction or attempt to get anyone onto the Tom wagon. Starts to look towards Sir Chris.
802
This was in response to IMAB and Zionite talking about Tordecks PR (posting restriction) being faked, and Dota read this as IMAB saying his PR was faked, then asking for thoughts. This is clearly a newb post, feel free to follow the quotes to Zio/IMAB to determine if you think it was an obvious mistake. This along with his misrep of Rodemy is looking pretty shady.
824
This one, comes off a lot cleaner than his Rodemy interaction. I could easily see this as being a coach job, after his first interaction drew a lot of hate.
912
Response to Jobie, with his vote on Jobie. Again, I am not seeing the fire of a town who thinks he has a caught scum. If dota has a town game, I wouldn't mind seeing how he interacts with people he voted there (even if it is offsite).
942
No interaction with Jobie from his vote, to the post above this one.
1137
Bandwagon vote on Chris. If I had to pick a team right now, Dota is a werewolf with Chris. Their interaction has come apart as distancing in the few interactions I have looked at with dota, but both have always been willing to vote the other, but never as the instigator.
1474
Response to Tom claiming.
1479
The two questions seem contradictory. The former implies he is trying to get more information, but the latter implies he can't do anything with it, and the first question is simply useless.
If he thinks Tom was caught on the other side of the scum line, this is an attempt to try and figure out the other mafia members.
1563
Immediately tries to back pedal out of the name claim by blaming it on people just saying their name. All this should have done was speed the time tables for your plan.
Flavor gaming. After spending day 1 trying to figure out the potential numbers of mafia/werewolves the game started with. Even if we ignore the fact Iso typically tries to punish flavor gaming, this is just an attempt to look like he is helping the town.
1608
Almost immediate about face from voting Tom, to saying unvote to prevent speed/accidental hammer, but still willing to lynch him, to now "why waste a lynch". The evolution of this plan just feels completely unnatural.
1750
Sides Tom with believing IMAB is lying about his result.
1767
I don't know how this is his first post, rather than voting IMAB if he thought Tom was telling the truth. No sign that he even considered whether Tom might have given a false positive, or confidence about his read on IMAB from before.
1770 (its a case on IMAB, so just click the link)
He seems to come to the conclusion that IMAB was likely lying about his role, but isn't voting him. It isn't until 1784 that he finally votes IMAB.
1951
Again, look at his interaction with IMAB. Third example of someone he is voting, but not really interested in pursuing.
2044
He quote himself saying he intended to vote Wildfire. "See? My vote is justified"
2144
First we hear about being jailed. I don't get the "crap" here. There is no way to know if roleblocking was detrimental to the gift. Maybe it was a passive ability or a day ability.
2226
You could ask him, instead of Nacho...
2240 (roleblock reveal)
Like, it's possible that he was afraid of getting lynched as town. There is also the possibility that he realized he will be caught when a random player is roleblocked, or no one is roleblocked at someone still dies.
2256
You could tell by how aggressive you were pushing him the last two days.
Long story short, Unvote whoever, Vote Dota.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Let's break it down:
So you're suspicious of him because (a) this was his first post of length in a game that had only lasted 105 posts and (b) he's suspicious of a guy who claims for no reason? The rest of it is just fluffy "speculation bad" logic.
I like that; stands by his convictions in the face of adversity. That reads town to me.
I've said it once, I'll say it a thousand times: failure to do legwork isn't a scum tell without a clear scum motivation. We all have busy lives.
(There are some copy-paste glitches here, so I'm cutting through a bit.)
Could go either way. Another reasonable way to read it is Dota was voting by gut (god knows tom rubbed a lot of people the wrong way), but now is voting for someone on more concrete evidence. Now, I don't agree with voting Rodemy - I think Rodemy is just misguided here - but I don't think the vote is unreasonable, either. Rodemy's point - that Nacho is essentially unconfirmable - is reasonable but misguided.
But just calling this "riding the Rodemy train" is GJ ignoring all the subtlety and going straight for the conclusion he wants. Bad move.
No it doesn't. Again, Dota's reading is probably wrong but not unreasonable - he thinks Rodemy is trying to goad Nacho into using the governor on tom, which makes sense, seeing as they were just arguing over the confirmability of Nacho's role. (I assume in Dota's mind, Rodemy's "oh govnah" comment was a reference to that, rather than simply asking Nacho for his opinion.) And again, you can't just say the equivalent of "this is weird" and just conclude "ergo scum". That's not how this game works, GJ! And you should know that.
Again, I agree with Dota - he's probably mistaken, but his mistake sounds earnest. And again, GJ cuts past the nuances and goes straight to "handwaves".
Agreed, but I'd give it much less weight. We were all new players once; we were all overwhelmed once. There's a difference between a non-sequitur pity party and a pity party aimed at derailing a wagon.
Also, GJ again misses some context here. Dota's comment came in response to Rodemy acknowledging that Dota's reading of his comments was not unreasonable. That explains the pity party - an acknowledgment that he's out of his depth. Perfectly reasonable, and certainly not something to be dismissed as just "the I am a newbie argument".
Absence of motivation != scum motivation. Weird != scummy. Gotta do better than that.
I'll be interested to see if GJ ever makes reference to this again. The fact that he ended with a vote makes me think that this is neither here nor there, but it does give a townie point to GJ, suggesting it isn't just a witch hunt, but that he honestly believes this (easier when there are two scum teams).
Guilt by association. Or at least, that's the only way I can read this post to cohere. "Sir Chris was bussing, ergo Dota must be bussing." That's the flimsiest logic I've ever heard, even without the above acknowledgment that Dota's a new player and thus nowhere near Sir Chris's tactical caliber.
I don't understand. His subsequent explanation in 613 makes sense to me and suits a scum-hunting mindset. How is this post inactive?
That doesn't make sense. What Axel's accusing him of is the classic move of a scum buddy stepping in for another scum buddy to politely correct their logic. Meanwhile, Dota's confused tone of voice reads genuine. He sounds lost and timid to me.
Typo? Nacho didn't unvote, Dota did. And what's your point? Why does this matter?
It clearly is a mistake, likely due to the post Zionite meant to quote (#779) getting cropped off. I have no idea how you read "shady" into so blatant an error.
More broken logic. First of all, in all my games playing scum, never have I seen "coaching" even remotely this nuanced; usually, scum buddies just say "stop ******* up". Second, there's no attempt whatsoever to justify this coaching claim, it's just "newb makes cogent point, so newb must have had help, so newb must have scum buddies". I could drive a truck through that.
"Not seeing the fire" is not enough to point to scum without more evidence. As GJ seems to acknowledge himself, personal temperament is a factor here. And Dota's question is perfectly reasonable, even of someone he's voting for, either as an admission of (Dota's) fallability or an attempt to trap Jobie. Again, GJ makes no attempt to connect his logic to his conclusion, and just floats out general characterizations of dodginess.
You're allowed to have multiple scum suspects in this game, GJ.
So you're telling me Dota, the new player, preemptively bandwagoned his scum buddy based on one person's PBPA of a player whom almost nobody else read as scum? That's exceptionally aggressive; even Sir Chris might blanch at that level of all-out commitment. Could it simply be I was right about Sir Chris, and Dota appreciated my reasoning? Occam's Razor certainly suggests that.
What's your point?
I don't understand your logic here, nor why this matters.
**That, kids, is what you call a scum slip. So there is some pattern to the scum names, isn't there? When you're dead, I'm going to use this quote as the spear with which I stab TS. Probably while shouting, "Eets'a you, mafia!"
Still don't get it. This all still reads as Dota having a cunning plan which he's inexperienced enough to not realize will likely lead to nothing. His post still reflects that to my eyes.
Begging the question. "He's doing something that helps the town, but he's scum, so he's only doing it to pretend to be town." What if he's just town? Again, Occam's Razor - newb townie coming up with intricate schemes for "breaking" the game makes a lot more sense than what you're suggesting he is, which is some sort of idiot-savant mafia, vacillating wildly between awful plays and Sir Chris-level brilliance. That doesn't make sense, GJ!
"Immediately" belies the fact that two (real-world) days and a hundred posts passed between the vote and this moment. And again, where's the scum motivation? Lynching tom is good for both scum teams, because it's a wasted lynch. Caution suggests town, not scum.
And your point is? At this moment, I believe imab was lying, too.
Also could go either way, as Day 3 ably demonstrates; we've all gone back and forth on imab and his wacky, wacky ability. And again, where's the scum motivation? If imab is town and Dota scum, wouldn't Dota have all the reason in the world to jump on imab's throat? Unless you're suggesting they're somehow scum-buddies?! Because that doesn't make any sense at all!
And ditto.
Misrepresentation. Dota's quote clearly indicates he was only holding off voting because Wildfire was already at L-2 and he didn't want to put him in lynch range before his time. Note that the quoted post was from three (real-world) days prior.
Also, townie points for Dota, because his question to TS is a good one in retrospect. TS definitely does seem like he was setting up multiple townie lynches.
Hadn't I already claimed by that point? And hadn't Nacho already acknowledged that Zionite's ability and mine were similar? Dota's statement is just fine.
(a) What's your point? Or did you just want to step in to defend TS's honor?
(b) Dota doesn't know what the ability is, so he's asking someone who does.
We've been over this, but hopefully this PBPA solidifies the clear fact that Dota is new at this and absolutely one to make this kind of blunder. More to the point, it makes no sense for him to come clean about it if he was scum - after all, if he "failed" to save one of his targets, it's not like the target would be alive to claim to have been the target, and he could try to spin another story.
In short, this looks bad, but without tapping into the motivation for it, I think it's an innocent mistake. Based on all of the above, I'm more than happy to defend Dota to the death on this one.
Null tell. We don't know what constitutes "aggressive" for him. And again, this doesn't explain the scum-buddies problem.
Tl;dr this is a horrible case built on faulty logic, loaded language, and an utter failure to even try to explain Dota's motivation for pretty much anything. This is a case I'd only expect GJ to make as a last-ditch effort to get Dota.
You all may disagree with my reasoning or methods, but I'm more confident than ever that the last four scum are IMAB, Antny, GJ, and TS, and that Dota is town. I will happily defend this position with all twenty claws.
(But, again, werewolves over mafia. Imab or Antny has to die.)
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
There is basically no way in hell that DoT is scum. It doesn't actually make sense for scum to claim the Jailkeeper --> Roleblock thing on me; he wasn't caught out by his Jailkeeper claim, and the random paranoia of me because people aren't questioning me enough is well within the range of his town game but not so much within the range of his scum game.
I don't get why people all of a sudden think TS is scum when he's bled town in post after post after post, but I suppose I'll discover that when I read.
I'm not sure about GJ; I'd like for him to be scum because it'd make things neater, but I've seen quite a few things in his play that I've liked and thus don't feel super awesome about that anymore.
Seppel's claim is also pretty sketchy.
Yes, this one post is what I am suspicious about. You got me. Tell me why town would be speculating that hard about a set-up with ~5% information about the full setup?
Trying to push a role that literally can't be scum reads town to you? Ask Zajnet what happens to games that give scum teams the ability to mess with lynches.
By itself? You're right.
(That irritates me. I did it on word, and then copy pasted. Maybe something got cut in the paste over).
You missed the point. He jumps on to Tom for memory (no issue at this stage for not bringing it up). tom posts 2-3 times and doesn't even address this new vote, he says nothing else to Tom and moves on to Rodemy.
If what a player is representing doesn't match what is coming out of their message, is in fact weird, and scummy.
He has mentioned at least on either time before he is a newbie. I don't think the context adds a ton to either alignment, and he could have made this post as town or scum.
It adds to the situation that he isn't focused (which could be personal trait). Most people, I can imagine have an idea town or scum, expert or newbie of the types of his reaction, what was his reaction there? Or was he just posting to post? Was he expecting people to re-question IMAB?
All this post was making was that if Dota is scum, he is likely a werewolf. There was a post of his that was made to Hunt that I didn't include, and that looked more believable (meaning, I don't think Dota is a mafia with hunt). His Chris interactions looked more buddy buddy.
You can't tell me you can't read the hesitation and awkwardness when he says " I guess it does look like I'm defending Zionite, if you consider my discussion with TS earlier on this page." I could see your point if you were arguing this was more of a newbie tell, but "scum hunting mindset"? Really
Nacho makes a point about Tom, scum point about Chris, Dota jumps at the opportunity. My point is that he is not doing a ton of questioning or interacting with anyone he is willing to vote.
Yeah, I didn't care about the point too much, hence the read it your self. The fact that too many players use PR as both "power role" and "posting restriction" doesn't help. I brought it up as more of a pattern point, but this could have happened to him, regardless of alignment.
I don't think that works with a newbie. When I was scum in basics, I explain why it looks bad.
I typed my responses as I read them. I didn't have a conclusion in mind, although I did enter the read with a leaning scum read. Hell, even the skim read, I was leaning scum, until realizing he was a PR claim.
Jobie wasn't a really hot wagon at the time. Did he actually want to push him, or just look busy?
What you are leaving out is that a lot of people displayed suspicion of Necarg, and Chris was better, but wasn't exactly radiating town vibes himself. Also, Rhand in xkcd did the exact same thing as scum: immediately bandwagoned Kami as the 2nd vote on his wagon whom not only was almost nobody else reading scum, but people were actually calling his tells "town".
There isn't one. Just for reference.
Didn't Chris claim something different from the name he flipped? I don't quite recall, but that would seem to imply if there was a name flavor, both teams likely have false claims.
When you ask if people object to a name claim, I think most people can safety assume they want to have a name claim. When that starts happening (for whatever reason), and someone got angry about it (i think it was Axel), his response came off immediately as defensive.
New Law: GJ's law: At least once per game, someone will ask for some sort of partial claim. All I am saying is that it looks like busy work, that doesn't actually do anything. Attempting to "break the set-up" is something done by newbies and vetreans alike. I am not saying he is a mastermind, only that he is posting non-content, and trying to make it look like he is doing townie things.
Immediately was perhaps the wrong word. What I implied was the post after his "will go back to Tom" became a "why bother with a lynch".
Wait for it.
How is that mindset not a windmill slam vote IMAB, if he actually felt that way? Even before Tom was confirmed neutral (he could have in theory still flipped a scum team when his post was made). Tom not lying about his role should have cemented his belief from before, what stopped him?
He quoted himself. He wanted to show that he actually said he would be voting Wildfire when "three days later" he would jump on.
To your second point, TS was obviously favoring Etr as scum. The question seemed obvious, and after he answers it, Dota never actually follows through or acknowledges TS.
I know you are a mirror of Zionite, but did you actually claim what your gift did at this stage?
It does look like he is trying to catch TS here, between this post and his last. Fair point.
He knew the role well enough to realize it was a role more often than not on the scum team, and then claim a role that comes off as more town.
*snorts*
You took every single point in a vacuum. Do you think if I were to case Sir Chris, and asked every single person here to pretend you don't know he is a werewolf, every post of his would scream "lynch dis scum"? My general points towards him would be:
1). Bad voting interactions with Chris (hence why I think he flips werewolf)
2). Non-interest in the people he is voting for.
3). Ghosting (posting enough to not be called lurking, but not posting anything of value).
4). Dishonest twisting of words (probably the weakest point, as I could see the confusion in one case).
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
imabusinessman (1): DoTArchon
Axelrod (1): Antny223
EtR (2): Nachomamma8, TappingStones
DoTArchon (3): EtR, imabusinessman, Gentleman Johnny
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Spoilered.
Sarcasm. Splendid. This will be a fun exercise. (That was sarcasm.)
I assume you highlighted posts you found suspicious, since there are a lot of them you excluded.
Town and scum speculate about setups all the time, especially in complex setups like two-scum-team games, and Dota's behavior has shown a general impulse toward constant unbased speculation. That appears to be his character.
Yeah. It's a position a scum would unlikely stand by in the first place, for the same obvious reason, which makes the original position moot (since, among other things, he's new), but even a baby scum knows that when people look askance at your positions, you probably shouldn't double-down on those positions.
Right, but see, this is a synecdoche for your entire case. You just assume that sheer accumulation of "maybe-suspicious" behavior amounts to a solid case. It's not a numbers game, GJ, it's a motivations game. Your case is littered with little bits where you gave little to no explanation of why we should care about the comment, apparently on the theory that all we should care about is that you care about it. It suggests intellectual laziness at the least and scumminess at the worst, and I trust you to be smart enough not to have tripped into the former.
And I'm saying that's just conjecture that doesn't trump another perfectly legitimate explanation that also doesn't require imputing conspiratorial thinking to simple caprice.
No it does not! Weird does not equal scummy! Weird is *correlated* with insidious, which is *correlated* with scummy, but you haven't even tried laying out the logical steps from A to C, you're just waving wildly in the general area.
And for that matter, you cut out the part of my quote that again says the same thing as above - there's an easy way to read his comments as internally consistent which doesn't require him to be scum. You can't just pick the darkest interpretation; you have to prove that alternate interpretations are less legitimate. The fact that you abridged my quote suggests you can't actually say Dota didn't think Rodemy was suggesting Nacho governor tom, you just want to stir up a big ol' cloud of doubt.
But you're arguing he's scum, right? So why even quote it, if it's a null tell?
I dunno, you tell me. I'm starting to get the sense that a lot of this case is you throwing up your hands and saying "I don't get it, so it must be illicit". True or false? Because if true, a lot of your case dissolves into null tells, for the very reason you're admitting to right here.
So your point is he's not a mafia. Glad we cleared that up!
Look, you've got two choices here, rhetorically. Either you aren't using this as proof that he's a werewolf, which means it's pointless, or you are using it as proof he's a werewolf, which is gut-wrenchingly bad guilt by association/imputation of skill to a new player comparable to a top-rate player/etc. Take your pick. Either way, another big chunk of your case falls away right here, as specious or facile.
I can hear it in your voice. You don't believe this nonsense either. It's okay. You're just doing your job.
You really need to proofread your comments if they're gonna be like this. Seriously, there're floating pronouns and missing words everywhere.
This is another one that could go either way, though I admit it's closer. The way I read the post, the unvote is a response to Nacho's closing comment, which is "Tom is the only player I'd currently pardon if lynched". Based on Dota's fear of no-lynching demonstrated earlier, he probably just unvoted because there's no point anymore. Again, there's not really anything in the text of his post to say that your reading is more convincing or reasonable than any other, even giving you the benefit of considerable doubt.
But the other comment, "not doing a ton of questioning or interacting with anyone he is willing to vote", is clearly wrong, both from the post you cite and in general. Indeed, just two of his posts later, in 645, he's voting Jobie and asking him tough questions. That doesn't sound like someone trying to vote clandestinely.
Well, voop! Into the dumpster.
Well, then we're gonna have to agree to disagree on your crazy coaching conspiracy theory.
And so what, your case is basically just about him ******* up the jailkeeper thing, and all these "maybe yes, maybe nos"? That's it? Because those aren't good reasons!
I dunno, you tell me! Isn't your job supposed to be proving your theory and by extension your vote is well-reasoned?
I'm not leaving it out, because I was the one at the tip of the spear on Sir Chris, and I was basically alone the whole goddamn time! Even when people agreed with my PBPA, they said, "oh, but it's Chris, let's just see what happens".
And again, you're not telling me why Dota would do that, just that it's conceivable *someone* would do that. As we've repeatedly acknowledged, he's not just someone. He's the kind of person who thinks flavor claims and careful analysis of team compositions will somehow break one of Iso's games right down the middle. That is, he's not exactly a tactical wizard. But your scum theory of him falls apart the instant we acknowledge it makes no sense for Dota to act in the way you're implying if he were scum!
Thanks for helping?
He claimed an abbreviated version of the same name. Honestly, we should have thought more about it, considering "Kate" isn't an Italian name. That makes me think the scum do not have false name claims. Still totally think you just slipped there.
Does not compute.
New law: Xyre's Law: GJ's law imputes nothing into the alignment of people asking for partial claims.
At least mine is based on empirical evidence. I've seen townies and scum alike do this with no pattern among the primes. It all goes down to who the player is and/or what they think will help them.
More to the point, though, your argument has a big gap. Let's break it down to a simple syllogism:
A. Getting flavor claims is something worthless
B. Only scum do worthless things
C. Ergo, someone who asks for flavor claims is scum.
The problem is that B is simply false. Townies do stupid things all the time, especially when they mistakenly think the stupid thing will be useful.
And again, since he knew tom wasn't on his team, per your theory, why not just kill him?
Because there was enough gray space to create doubt. He was, after all, an assassin, and tom was shifty.
Do you think imab is telling the truth about his ability? It seems like he wasn't. So why aren't you casing/voting him?
The day "quoting yourself" is a bona fide scum tell is the day I eat my iPhone.
And my point is based on the fact that I think EtR is town. Ergo, TS was trying to set up two consecutive town lynches. Dota was skeptical of that, which he was right to be. Nothing more than that. I don't actually care whether he follows up or not, because that has less of a bearing on his motivation. Maybe he just decided the answer was OK? Who knows.
Yep. I remember now, I claimed Day 3. The mafia and werewolves had to choose between killing Zionite or me, and ended up double-tapping him. The jailing bit didn't come up until Day 4, in the context of Nacho getting blocked.
Uh, no, that was you. I was just following your methods, cap'n.
Right, but my point is your case is so flimsy that you have almost nothing whatsoever that even gets over the meager, meager hurdle of "could be reasonably said by a scum".
(1) is bunk, because the "voting interactions" are based almost entirely on guilt-by-association, the theory that he bussed his scum buddy with almost no pressure in play because he's both a new player and a tactical genius, and other circumstantial nonsense.
(2) is bunk, because you glossed over all the times he did actually ask questions of and/or critically analyze the people he voted for, and because this argument requires believing that only scum do this.
(3) is bunk, and you know it. The very fact that we've churned out four massive quote walls about it is enough to prove he's present, active, and prominent.
(4) is bunk, for all the reasons exhaustively indicated.
And this is setting aside the far greater point that none of these are particularized to him; they're all just "scum often do X" points, devoid of any particular motivation analysis or anything else to suggest even a modicum of critical insight.
*And* this is setting aside the gaping logical holes, the many equivocations and null tells, and let's not forget the scum slip.
In sum, I decree this case to be utter tripe.
I'll read your next response, but forgive me if I don't reply; I don't have hours of my life to give over to this anymore. I'll see you at the gallows.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
And yet Xyre isn't townreading me even though I pushed Nachomamma longer than anyone and I'm still pushing "OBVTOWN" xyre. Right Xyre? You believe yourself to be confirmed town and I'm doing my damndest to push your wagon. Why aren't you townreading me for pushing you, a person you believe cannot be scum because of your role?
Speaking of intellectual laziness. Xyre thought I was mafia even though tomsloger investigated me as not mafia. Now he thinks I'm a werewolf for no explained reason at all. Even though he and I both caught on to the newbie replace out scumtell and were scumreading Sir Chris for almost the exact same reasons.
Speaking of zionite...if Xyre's role is supposed to be the exact same as Zion's why was Xyre scumreading Zion. Shouldn't zion have been confirmed town to Xyre?
Tom was shifty? My how the winds change. Xyre was begging Nacho to pardon "shifty" Tom during twilight of day 2.
You misunderstand my point. Pushing likely townies doesn't disclaim scumminess, per se. The difference is that a mafia governor is not a role that exists; it breaks a fundamental rule of game design, which is that the town should have the final say in deciding their lynch, even if the mafia get to screw around with it a bit. Anyone who commits to that argument is insane, will immediately be told they're insane, and should they continue to commit to that bit, is probably too insane to be sneaky enough to be a mafia. Call it the "either you're town, or you're so insane that you're going to singlehandedly destroy the mafia, so we might as well leave you alive" rule. I know that doesn't abbreviate well. On that basis, yes, your suspicions of Nacho's claim are a point in your favor.
My role is different because putting it in the hands of scum wouldn't violate a fundamental rule of the game, but (a) it would seriously **** up the balance of a game that already has extra kills flying everywhere, (b) really really make the mafia overpowered relative to the werewolves, and (c) as I've noted before, if I was actually mafia, I would never have given the gifts away to townies; I'd give them to my scum buddies and lie about my role, because the ability is so much better in the mafia's hands.
You seem to be the only person who really doesn't understand this. Let's break out the trusty Occam's Razor. Either:
- Iso is a crazy person (admitted) who submitted an imbalanced setup that got past well-reasoned reviewers and somehow this imbalanced setup has not yet resulted in the mafia absolutely crushing the werewolves, or
- I'm town.
The fact that the simplicity of this dichotomy confuses you really confuses the hell out of me.
I think you're scum based on your scummy behavior and the tom fiasco. I believe tom's investigation, ergo you're not mafia, ergo I think you're a werewolf. Plus it makes it a lot easier to explain your false claim, since a werewolf could easily fake investigation results for seers. Plus plus I still have an inkling that there's something to this crazy flavor gaming jibber-jabber, and also your interactions with Antny suggest a scum pairing and the two of you fit better with Sir Chris than Huntzilla.
I thought he was town and shifty. Even I can admit that people were reasonable in suspecting him; I just thought he was more likely playing badly than being genuinely insidious. Turns out I was right. (For many years playing mafia on this site, I was frequently an early lynch because I had an erratic style, so I have a soft spot for players who subconsciously brush other people the wrong way regardless of their alignment.)
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
[url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=63540]Newbie 1653
[url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=64333]Newbie 1666(Just finished)[/url]
@Imab
So I'm on the werewolf team with Xyre?
[url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=63540]Newbie 1653
[url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=64333]Newbie 1666(Just finished)[/url]
@Imab
So I'm on the werewolf team with Xyre?
@GJ - My completed games
Newbie 1653
Newbie 1666 (Just finished)
@Imab
So I'm on the werewolf team with Xyre?
@Xyre: I stopped reading the Dota case and your Dota rebuttal halfway through. So, question: Did you agree with GJ on any of his points?
(1) Tom cleared you of being Mafia, and
(2) Tom lied when he said that I had a gun,
are in any way compatible positions, and/or why you seem to think the one "clears" you but the other does not condemn you.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Nope, he went to his grave claiming he had no gun, and indeed claimed the mod confirmed for him he didn't.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Late night brain fart. I've clearly been stating Xyre is WW cleared and on the Mafia team.
Has anything EtR posted looked town?
OB looked town, sure, but he was in the game for 6 pages. People can look town for 6 pages, especially when they can scum hunt genuinely. How long does the slot slide on OB's play?
If Tom lied about me being Mafia he would have been lynched the next day. However once I stated my result on him he was lynched. Tom then lied about not having a gun to pursue a spite lynch.. And you can tell he lied because he denied having a gun before he even "contacted the mod", which is something he obviously didn't do in reality.
Which games have you played with Dota?
@Xyre: That was the most artful dodge of my question to you that I have ever seen.
When someone posts a case, if they're scum, it's going to be riddled with facts and falseties. What you're saying is that GJ's case was 100% rubbish? Not a single thing in his case you agree with? Not even a "meh, that point is dumb" or "that's not alignment indicative." Your bull***** ride is over.
Vote Xyre
Which argument are you reading?
Xyre has played like ***** toDay but this vote is not useful right now.
No, I'm not saying that! Christ. You are seriously the worst good mafia player on this site, with your awful drive-by antics.
If you read the entire PBPA interaction, you'll see a lot of Gentleman Johnny's conclusions are (stated) "this post is weird" and (unstated) "this cumulative weirdness is scummy". Broadly speaking, I agree with the former - Dota says a good number of weird things. But my response was all about teasing those threads apart and pointing out how (a) a lot of the weird things he says have perfectly innocent alternate explanations and (b) weirdness alone is not scummy. And when he does make the connection between weirdness and scummy, rather than just letting it hang in the air like a fart, he often employs strained logic or makes unsupported assumptions about gameplay.
My point is that GJ has made a paper tiger case on Dota - superficially reasonable, but flat and lifeless when you get deep into it. That's exactly what I said to you, and that's exactly what you say scum do. So why on earth do you not understand that?!
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
In my book, based on the sheer craziness of the original's play, only until the replacement does something undeniably scummy. But fine, let's do a stripped-down EtR PBPA without the barnacle.
EtR actually came in on post 207. After some earlier housekeeping posts, he comes out the gate in 259 with some good analysis of the game so far. But scum can reread too, so only a small town point for substantial effort. (Compare him with Antny's play this game, though, and it stands out immediately.) What follow are a barrage of questions-only posts, which also could go either way.
His first big critical analyses come in 336, and I find myself agreeing with a lot of them. His comment about Dota's phrasing is another example where I'd say, as with GJ's case generally, "yeah, that's weird, but I can believe he said it innocenetly", but again I think it's a valid point taken alone. The vote on Antny for "hopping around to where ever you think something will catch fire with weak reasoning" is a pretty concise summary of the main reason I think Antny is scum, so points there. And I agree with his breakdown of TS's semi-PBPAs, especially as explicated in 399. Overall, I'm really liking EtR at this moment.
(His subsequent unvote of Antny is bothersome - why does every vote have to serve a purpose? It seems like scum more than town are worried about leaving votes floating around in the ether - but that could just be personal style. And he votes for TS shortly thereafter, claiming "I wanted to hear more from Dota", which explains the Antny unvote a bit more but is itself a bit of a thin justification.)
Again an insightful comment about Dota in 414. Shows he's thinking fully about motivations and how what people say reflects it. I like that a lot. I also like his even-tempered response to TS's just plain bad answer to the vote (424 and 418, respectively). EtR doesn't look at all to be "playing for his own survival" - quite the opposite in fact. Whereas TS looks eager to slander someone voting for him, which is how I define OMGUS.
Keeps pressing TS for answers to his questions about the PBPA, which I like. He's not tunnelling, i.e. he's not using his pressure on TS as an all-purpose excuse to not contribute other content, but he keeps the pressure on nonetheless in the belief that it will produce useful results. And I like his willingness to consider TS's points on face value re: tomsloger and Zionite.
A bit of hypocrisy in 925, where he chides tomsloger for not giving reasoning for town reads when EtR himself gave a bit town/neutral/scum list where many of the members hadn't actually been substantially addressed in his posts. But the rest of his analysis also sounds generally good.
I don't agree with voting someone based on personal attacks (988), but I can understand the sentiment (there are a bunch of jerks in this game, myself included), so neutral.
1141 is another good point - Sir Chris was getting mighty conciliatory with me at the end (calling me town against my many critics) in the hopes of shaking me off, and EtR catches it.
Entered the Huntzilla wagon with a little trepidation, but I still think a little trepidation was justifiable there, so I'm also not necessarily bothered by it, at least not without any specific suggestion that EtR is mafia.
And that ends Day 1. He only makes one post for a large part of that day, which is concerning. Does EtR claim a lot of unexpected absences regularly as town/scum?
His comment in 1847 about imab following up on supposed slips by Necarg is astute. I'm not sure I totally buy it, but it does have a certain allure - that imab turned a blind eye to his scumbuddy's mistake. His analysis in this post in general also largely makes much sense to me. And I like that he's retracing his steps to the early game, rather than just getting mired in the present. Suggests he's making earnest steps to rectify his absences.
"I'm just looking to hear your reasoning" about this person we both suspect is a little suspicious, since EtR hasn't been saying too much about Dota but has generally seemed to think he's town by this point in the game. I'm less bothered by the "self-consciousness" GJ cites him for in 1855 than the sense that he could just be asking Dota to do the work for him.
His play regarding who targeted me was very solid. I highly doubt he wouldn't just share the information if he were scum. That's all I'm gonna say about that.
And that mostly wraps things up.
So, yeah, I totally still don't understand why people find EtR scum. Other than a couple of weird things he's said, the only thing about him that truly stood out as suspicious were his sheer number of claimed absences (there was a former player, Wrath of DoG, who cited excuses far more readily as scum than town), but those do little to displace my general satisfaction with the long analytical posts he does end up offering.
I'd compare him substantially to Axelrod - asks a lot of probing questions, and only occasionally makes something of them. It's the hang-out-a-bunch-of-lines approach, and I find it's generally town provided there's solid follow-through and actual critical analysis, and not just endless line-hanging to avoid actually offering a solid opinion. EtR has shown he asks the questions looking for useful answers, and has offered solid and well-reasoned opinions consistently.
Definitely town, definitely still ride-or-die on him.
At this point, I've reread pretty much everybody except Seppel and Nacho (either directly or in responding to another PBPA), and am still completely satisfied with saying that imab, Antny, TS, and GJ are the last four scum. I wish to vote one of the former two today, and will not vote for anyone not on this list.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I played in DoT's first game with him.
Mechanically, suspect. Claiming jailkeeper then realizing he'd be caught in a lie and reneging to roleblocker is the sign of a nervous newbie scum. And he comes up with that all on his own? Yeah right. Plus, I don't see any other roles that could reasonably interfere with all the power we have.
So, not my preferred lynch, but I'll hammer if absolutely necessary.Except that isn't what you did. And you decided to respond to me instead of GJ. As if you've declared yourself the winner of that argument and decided that you don't need to respond to anything.How about you humor me and narrow it down to last two scum? You really think this 18-player game game has six scum, two neutrals, with two anti-town kills per night?
Actually, you haven't even thought it, you've just sort of stated it as fact. Which suddenly worries me.
@Everyone: Just as a reminder, we can lynch Xyre and force someone to hammer to get two lynches. And if that person refuses, we lynch them for being scum.
My inbox is suspiciously lonely.
(I do play league of legends, and even the way I would verbally think about your name is "zIer".) OoG, I wouldn't mind if you stated how you pronounce your name.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
And we can play the synonym game all you want; you know what I mean. Anything that sounds wrong but doesn't fall into a clear-cut category of scum-tell. You may not use the exact word often, but the case is full of the concept.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Gun to the head, I'd say IMAB and Antny are top two. But I highly doubt this game has only four scum, even with the "neutrals" (who really have little bearing on the town-scum balance, because as has been repeatedly noted, they were apparently just townies by a different name). There have been at least three 12-player two-scum-team games on this site, and every one of them was 2/2/8. You're telling me that Iso decided to just dump in six effective townies? I absolutely refuse to believe that.
More to the point, as you've so violently noted on occasion, if there are four surviving scum, we're on the precipice of getting knocked out of this game altogether. So what's the damn point in entertaining the less conservative notion?
Mark my words, Seppel, after this game, I'm going to yell at you something fierce. Imab and TS are jerks who ruin games, and tomsloger is a crazy person who ruins games, but you are a perfectly sane person who has the faculties to play well and yet ruins games with a sense of definite and purposeful indifference. I've spent hours and hours carefully casing throughout this game only to have you piss all over my flowers like an incontinent dachshund, and I've had it. From now on, unless you have something truly useful to say, I'm just going to treat you like imab and throw your posts into my mental "can't give a *****" pile.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Correction, his second game at the time this started.
If DoTA's reasoning is to be believed, why would he not have blocked Nacho on Day 1 when he said he didn't believe him? Also the random "Don''t take me serious but seriously" part of this post bothers me as well.
I don't recall who cased him (I think GJ), but they called out that there was nothing that happened between DoTA voting Tom and Rodemy and the vote looks suspect.
This again does not read to me as the mindset of someone that would be comfortable running a jailer/roleblock gambit. I believe this speaks to coaching. He also makes a point to call out that he's not comfortable because he's made himself look scummy. This play/behavior changes abruptly mid-way through Day 1. Again, I think it speaks to coaching. In fact, this post is where there was a turn on a dime. I am especially concerned with it being called out.
In this post DoTA unvotes his main scum read (Jobie) who he previously said this about: "I'm not talking about lynching Tom, I'm talking about the claim push. Tom was at L-3 (as you so helpfully pointed out), there was no need for him to claim. Jobie pushing for the claim on the grounds that it will get him night killed or lynched (I still fail to see what a bad claim would be considering we're still in day 1) is an anti-town sentiment. If Jobie isn't scum then he's neutral, because nothing I've seen from him can convince me he's aiming for a town victory." He also moved his vote from Jobie to Sir Chris based on a case from xyre. The same Xyre that DoTA was previously calling a scum read.
So to summarize, DoTA unvotes his main scum read, to vote someone he hasn't mentioned really at all, based on a case presented by someone he called scummy. WAT?
Pushing a mass name claim, because...? He also goes on to push the mass name claim several more times without revealing his. I believe that the scum do not have safe claims and he is using this as a way to find out what claims would be available. In fact, DoTA makes 5 specific posts asking for names before he reveals his name. FIVE. Each time compiling more names of other players.
Which it didn't.
And then he uses it to make an awful vote based on flavor? And this is before we have all of the other names.
More information gathering.
This is what he said about Wildfire 2 posts back "Wildfire - My main issues with Wildfire are his name claim (yes I know flavour gaming is a terrible idea but it's what I have to work with right now, and so far the names have made sense with the flips) and his 180 on Imab. Early in the day he seemed on the fence about Imab, but once the wagon gained traction he started hard scumreading Imab based on interaction analysis with Sir Chris. I did a count earlier, Imab reached L-1 before Nachos made his post and people started unvoting."
Why the sudden move to WIldfire? Wildfire was voting the person that DoTA just unvoted...
This is absolute balogna.
More information gathering. DoTA also has a lot of list making posts, which I remember being a scumtell that I got caught for a long time ago.
I won't be moving my vote from DoTA.
Uh... he wouldn't? Ergo he's not lying?
I'm not sure what you want me to tell you here, except I know I've misread role PMs before, it's a pretty common thing, and the fact that he had no reason to backtrack on his claim if it was a lie should be pretty dispositive. Especially the last one - after all, the only people who could catch him in his lie would be the other scum team shooting his target, and the odds of that happening are low if he picks his targets correctly.
You're just assuming all mistakes are lies, and all lies are proof of insidious intent. Both of those assumptions are demonstrably false.
And what's your point? He's not entirely a newb, ergo we can't ascribe to him any benefit of the doubt for being a newb?
If memory serves (which might be wrong, because I'm holding in a lot of information), Dota's opinion changed on Nacho over the course of the thousand-post Day 1. Also, could someone remind me who Dota did claim to block on the other days?
And I responded to GJ's point already, so refer to my point there.
Begs the ******* question. Of course it doesn't point to him running a gambit, because HE'S NOT SCUM. AUGHHHH. Why do you have to jump immediately to the more complicated, less probable, totally imaginary explanation for his behavior?!
It was a good case! I caught the uncatchable man. Give me a little credit.
Once a-*******-gain, we're looking at two situations. You tell me which is more plausible:
- Dota's scumbuddies convinced him to jump onto a wagon almost nobody supported started by someone whom people broadly thought was scum because it would make him look more convincingly townie, or
- Dota agreed with my points and voted off them.
Occam's Razor, people! Why do you have to invoke conspiratorial thinking to get to your conclusions? And why, for the love of god, are you and GJ assuming that Dota, whom we can all admit is a very inexperienced player, nonetheless is capable of pulling off this sort of aggressive scum move, even with someone telling him to do it! I've never seen coaching that could turn a new player into a Sir Chris. Never once. Because it's never happened.
Also, I find it very interesting that nobody's asked an elementary question. Let's show the scum's hand:
ISO: Are the scum allowed to chat at night, or at any time, in their quicktopics?
It's not defined either way in the rules. The fact that you and GJ have fixated on this coaching thing without actually knowing whether or not it could happen reads to me like a scum slip by one or maybe both of you.
New players think those are good ideas. You're falling down the same wormhole as GJ of "I can't explain this, ergo it must be scum-motivated", and it's going to make it a lot harder for me to defend you. You're on my ride-or-die list, so I will, but I kind of hate you for it.
Never say never. My TMNT theory is still consistent with the likely scum list.
Unclean hands. You and I were both on Wildfire too. We were wrong. In a different way than he was wrong, but being wrong != being scum.
Motivation motivation motivation.
I agree that Dota's reasoning makes sense in a vacuum - he thought Wildfire was acting opportunistically. And again, the fact that he was wrong with his flavor ideas doesn't mean he was wrong-minded in pursuing them. Motivation motivation motivation.
You're wrong. You're so wrong, man.
Motivation?
I'm signing off for the night. This whole thing is driving me insane. I'm absolutely certain of my theories, and will fight to protect Dota to the ends of the earth, so buckle up for a long slog or actually listen to what I'm telling you for a change. Please. I'm begging you. I don't want to have to write anymore of these posts. But I will.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I would've resolved it differently.