Vaimes (4): fulcrum, Sir Chris, Necarg, Sepiriel
Generic (2): Huntzilla, Antny223
fulcrum (2): Rhand, Generic
Necarg (2): Vaimes, Cythare
Sir Chris (1): Atogaholic
Sepiriel (1): loran16
Abstain (0):
Rhand (24th) and Antny223 (14th) are on V/LA.
The order of night actions has been added to the OP.
So, odds are that the scumteam is completely spread out. One on my wagon, and then the other two are off on whatever wagons.
Of the people on my wagon, I think fulcrum is town. I don't really have a read on Sir Chris. Necarg is a self-proclaimed bandwagoner. Sepiriel read Way Way Way Too Into my vote on him, but, y'know. A for effort? It's kind of a mess. Right now I'd order them from most to least suspicious: Necarg > Sepiriel > Sir Chris > fulcrum.
Of the whatever wagoners, I have a tonwread on Huntzilla, and. That's it.Everyone else is either me or hasn't really posted anything. Except I guess Cythare? Who's just been dealing with Generic.
Eh. This is harder to do than I thought it'd be, since there's still a couple of people who just RVS'd and haven't done anything else. I'll come back to this.
Necarg, what do you think of Sepiriel? Ask them some questions, please? Also, what do you think of Cythare's vote on you?
You're waiting on an explanation of a first post vote? This is not exactly difficult to understand.
In the meantime, can we all just slow the hell down? There is no reason less than 24 hours in, before basically every poster can check in, that we have a freaking wagon already. Cut that out.
Anyhow, Necarg's posts read as bad townie, not scum. Generic reads as ANNOYING townie. Vaimes just reads as annoying. This many annoying players is going to be a problem, sigh.
Oh and this:
Quote from Sepiriel »
you are now trying to spin it as a joke list, that doesnt make it less of a good justification, specially considering what i explained above.
is just reaching HARD. Like incredibly hard. Guess my vote just lost its randomness.
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First, Vaimes has been obvious town for more than a day now. Of the people who followed me onto him, Sepiriel is quite clearly the worst, for precisely the reason Ioran just stated, which makes Ioran a light townread. Generic is the second worst, for the way he's been trying to get Vaimes lynched /without even voting/. I suspect Generic was hoping to get me lynched after Vaimes flipped town.
Second, I don't have a problem with Necrag, mainly because I have the perspective thst Vaimes is town. I think he's low hanging fruit and further dislike Generic for going after him.
First, Vaimes has been obvious town for more than a day now. Of the people who followed me onto him, Sepiriel is quite clearly the worst, for precisely the reason Ioran just stated, which makes Ioran a light townread. Generic is the second worst, for the way he's been trying to get Vaimes lynched /without even voting/. I suspect Generic was hoping to get me lynched after Vaimes flipped town.
Second, I don't have a problem with Necrag, mainly because I have the perspective thst Vaimes is town. I think he's low hanging fruit and further dislike Generic for going after him.
The bolding is mine...
But do you actually believe that Generic would be trying to chain mislynches as scum this early? Gen is a freaking pitbull, but no one would be able to get away with that this close to the beginning of day one. I don't have a problem with your mistrust of his intentions or his actions. But I can't believe that he would be trying to chain mislynches this early. This seems like a serious stretch.
You're waiting on an explanation of a first post vote? This is not exactly difficult to understand.
In the meantime, can we all just slow the hell down? There is no reason less than 24 hours in, before basically every poster can check in, that we have a freaking wagon already. Cut that out.
Anyhow, Necarg's posts read as bad townie, not scum. Generic reads as ANNOYING townie. Vaimes just reads as annoying. This many annoying players is going to be a problem, sigh.
Oh and this:
Quote from Sepiriel »
you are now trying to spin it as a joke list, that doesnt make it less of a good justification, specially considering what i explained above.
is just reaching HARD. Like incredibly hard. Guess my vote just lost its randomness.
Wagons are in their own right fine. It is exerting pressure and getting discussion rolling. Why should we not have any wagons at this point exactly?
Oh and before I forget again, take away the RVS vote...
There's also the possibility that my wagon is all town, which would suck.
Or your wagon is all scum! Anything is possible in a vacuum and when you assign your own context to it. It's a little early for vote analysis. Now, looking at the behavior of WHY and HOW is a good idea. Necarg felt off when inching onto your wagon. Sepi jumped on full force. Fulcrum was setting a trap it would appear. I actually have to look back at Sir Chris' reason, as I can't seem to remember.
Of those, you think Necarg is the most suspicious. I would agree with this assessment. I do worry that it is simply him being new to the site that is what we are reading as scummy.
Generic: You clearly didn't read it as I fully explained my townreads of Ioran and my reason for waiting should be relatively clear. Try again.
Huntzilla: You're quite thinking about it the right way. By casting doubt on but not going head to head with me /and/ Vaimes /and/ Necarg, scum!Generic gets to set the groundwork for the rest of the Day and set up mislynch for most eventualities (like Vaimes claiming PR, for instance). It's the beginnings of an attempt to look good by "scumhunting" without committing to far in one direction or aligning to hard with a teammate. It has the added bonus of promoting paranoia among the town from the very beginning.
I'm not sure yet (or I'd be voting him), but his responses aren't helping him.
A scum who is actively falling into the obvious tells is a sloppier player than the one trying to avoid tells. Fulcrum know what I do and how I do it, she knows that engaging me will be her downfall if she is scum... And she chooses to trying and make it seem like she's doing it for whatever spurious reason she will try to come up with.
I think there are two scum amongst the fulcrum/vaimes/necarg/cythare/antsy pool...
Hey Generic,
With Fulcrum a definite scum for you now, do you still feel there is one scum left in the Vaimes/Cythare/Necarg/Antsy pool? If so, does anyone stand out to you more at this time?
This isn't something I should have to explain. You should get off you ass, look at the playlist and realize I'm obviously telling the truth because duh.
It's just like the Vaimes thing. Why would I ever attack town Vaimes as mafia when he's the easiest person in the world for me to manipulate?
How can you say that I was trying to hit Vaimes before he hits me when he clearly believes I'm town and I know him well enough to know that he'd think that way as town? Why don't you just ask us about these things?
When did I ever say that my entire push on him was a trap? I didn't, because his opening play was his scumplay, so I investigated. Then he became obvious town, so I decided to get something out of it, because I'm pretty damn good at wagon analysis.
How can you say I never explained my Ioran read when I said he had the exact same read of Sepiriel as I do, "which makes him a light townread"?
How can I possibly believe you aren't scum?
I'm trying, I really am. Ioran called you town and I think he's town and knows what he's doing, but for the life of me, I can't see it.
There's also the possibility that my wagon is all town, which would suck.
Or your wagon is all scum! Anything is possible in a vacuum and when you assign your own context to it. It's a little early for vote analysis. Now, looking at the behavior of WHY and HOW is a good idea. Necarg felt off when inching onto your wagon. Sepi jumped on full force. Fulcrum was setting a trap it would appear. I actually have to look back at Sir Chris' reason, as I can't seem to remember.
Of those, you think Necarg is the most suspicious. I would agree with this assessment. I do worry that it is simply him being new to the site that is what we are reading as scummy.
Except there are four people on his wagon.
Also, fulcrum's point on IIoA is spot-on here. You talk about "looking at the behavior of WHY and HOW" and then just state facts. Looking at the approach is important, but just reiterating what happened isn't. Your post here ends up being less useful than the post you're referring to, where Vaimes actually does provide context for his reads.
So, Vaimes is pretty clearly not scum, but that makes me wonder: what about fulcrum?
Beginning of the game, she sets a trap for Vaimes, knowing his playstyle and being able to use that to her advantage. She gets a few to follow her against Vaimes, then jumps ship afterwards. Then, she attacks generic. I am on the side of generic, and I agree with his points. So, I'm moving my vote to fulcrum. unvote
Vote Fulcrum
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#122, #132, and #143 specifically, but I agree with his analysis of fulcrum.
Oh, and on Vaimes's most recent question to me, in #112, Cythare can see me as suspicious, but I think the real suspicious one(s) are fulcrum and generic if fulcrum is town. However, I'm not offended or anything at the votes against me.
Note: I am aware that I am on most people's watch list, but this seems to be common this early, by the games I've played IRL.
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That's then equivalent of you auto accepting lorans read on me as genuine based on no explanation of why he's confirmed town to you to be able to contemplate sleeping his opinion of me.
Oh but wait, he's a light town read, making your faith in his read on me AT ALL spurious.
???
Ioran is my second strongest townread at the moment. I agreed with ever read and reason he gave in that post except for the read on you. Vaimes, my strongest townread, has said that you have a meta of being super scummy (as you are being now) as town. In addition, my own memories of you back up that you tunnel on stupid things regardless of alignment. So, I don't want to focus on you when I have a stronger scumread on Sepiriel, but you're making that very difficult.
Why do I need to promote and sell myself as town to you exactly? When did you become the most important person in this game? Have you ever read me correctly as town or scum? If so what made you think I was going to play this game any differently to how I normally do when I get a town role?
It is your job as town ,in addition to finding scum, to sell yourself as town. You are doing neither. I consider my reads important to me for obvious reasons.
The mere fact I finally have got to be town is apparent by the fact I'm very actively and aggressively participating in the scum hunt, I love this freedom. It's the same freedom I have knowing you won't get me lynched, A. Because it's day 1 and B. Because you have no case beyond you hate my attacks on you. Well boohoo.
I don't know you well enough to know if that's true. You could feel freedom posting as mafia or be good enough to fake it. That makes this defense completely irrelevant.
In addition, it's annoying because now I have to waste time defending myself against nothing. What little of a case you have articulated is just wrong, something you would know if you actually bothered to read my posts and think before posting. Stop wasting my time and read the game.
And run through the exact details of vaimes obvtowning compared to where he was suspicious, run me through that thought process of you can.
Vaimes became obv town around the time he posted that list of questions to everyone in post 22. You can see me realize it in post 32 and 35, waffle over continuing pushing him in post 41 and decide to continue pushing for reactions in post 45. It's difficult to explain my full read of Vaimes because it's so wrapped up in a complex understanding of him as a person, but I'd be absolutely shocked if he were scum here.
Also, why is it in me to spot your supposed null pile which was never labelled as such is in the OP order? Yes, you pointing it out allows me to see that now, but the sheer lack of any actual detail in you haphazard T/S list seems funny when you consider a T/S list from vaimes was what made you scum read him.
But k will hold off on the rest of those thoughts until you actually explain the town clear.
It wasn't labeled because I was phone posted, as I have now told you for the third ******* time. When I am phone posting, I am going to be as succinct as possible. There is some burden on you to realize that everyone not on that pile had some sort of reasoning for their placement given in that post or others before it and that everyone in that pile has hardly posted and not been addressed by me. Again, this falls under reading the game.
So, Vaimes is pretty clearly not scum, but that makes me wonder: what about fulcrum?
Beginning of the game, she sets a trap for Vaimes, knowing his playstyle and being able to use that to her advantage. She gets a few to follow her against Vaimes, then jumps ship afterwards. Then, she attacks generic. I am on the side of generic, and I agree with his points. So, I'm moving my vote to fulcrum. unvote
Vote Fulcrum
Ok, we need to talk about this. When you're playing a game of mafia, it helps to outline your thought process as much as possible. Start by explaining why. Why is Vaimes now "clearly not scum"? What specifically changed your mind? Do you have any reservations (like the fact that I'm defending him and you think I'm scum)? How exactly did I "set a trap for Vaimes"? (Keep in mind that when you reply to this one, I'm going to explain why you're wrong, because I did not do that.) How did I use my knowledge of Vaimes' playstyle to my advantage and, more importantly, why does that make me scum? What do you think of my points against Generic? What about Sepiriel, who I think is the more likely scum between the two? What points of Generic do you agree with?
You get the idea. Flesh out your ideas and it will get people to townread you, regardless of you alignment. Remember that you're aiming to convince people, both that you're town and that your worldview is the correct one.
Good luck with the push on me without getting your own hands dirty though... Wasn't that walnut you were trying to accuse me of? Deflection using your own mindset, you keep racking up the tells don't ya?
This isn't a case, this an OMGUS (Oh my god, you suck). I pointed out legitimate problems with Generic's play, and he came back with "How dare you attack two people while only voting one of them. Hypocrisy." The difference, of course, is that I'm making the cases and attacking myself, whereas Generic asked people to attack his scumreads for him (see him asking me, Vaimes and Sir Chris for our opinions on you). Generic's reads, until I went after him, were wishy-washy, and based on nothing. He left doors open to vote on Vaimes or defend him, go after me or leave me be, and attack you or leave you alone based on what others would say about you. It's weak and I expect better.
1.Fulcrum, you explained **** all. But don't think I missed your little attempt to try and scare me off my focus on you... You attempt to paint me as scum is nothing new to me for a day one, and it's not even that good compared to some.
2.You failed to address that you are doing exactly what you accused me of. You have suddenly been playing a trap by your push on vaimes, which is one of the lamest scum tactics there is to step away from a day 1 push without it seeming like a massive u turn... And all because you saw the potential for it to fall apart given vaimes high activity and the votes stopping coming.
3.Huntzilla, it's my early pool, if fulcrum flips scum vaimes is cleared by fulcrums actions. Antny still needs to come back from v/la and cythare is basically going to coast day 1. I still think there is one more scum amongst them, fulcrum being scum would reduce that pool down to one in three which will give me a great day 2 start point.
And sir Chris still needs to make an impact in this game, so I look forward to his next visit.
The numbers are mine.
1 is a false statement. I've explained basically everything I've done. Generic did not point to anything specific here, because there is nothing specific to point to. The second part of it is more OMGUS, "how dare you attack me," etc.
2 is stupid. Generic is trying to claim that I backed off Vaimes because pressure slowed down, as if three other people weren't still voting for him and four had yet to check in. It's also needlessly aggressive, when all he has to do is /ask/ for why I initially pressured and then backed off of Vaimes, and then he can dissect my answers. This is the path someone who wants to figure out the game should take.
3 isn't actually a point against me, but I'm going to use to point out that if Generic strongly believes Vaimes and I cannot be scum together, then he should ask Vaimes, a close friend of mine who has played numerous games with me, about the things I'm doing (like the arrangement of my readwall). He hasn't, either because he's too lazy to try to figure out the game or because he's scum.
He's the easiest person toanipulate? Says who? You? That's then equivalent of you auto accepting lorans read on me as genuine based on no explanation of why he's confirmed town to you to be able to contemplate sleeping his opinion of me.
Oh but wait, he's a light town read, making your faith in his read on me AT ALL spurious.
Why do I need to promote and sell myself as town to you exactly? When did you become the most important person in this game? Have you ever read me correctly as town or scum? If so what made you think I was going to play this game any differently to how I normally do when I get a town role?
The mere fact I finally have got to be town is apparent by the fact I'm very actively and aggressively participating in the scum hunt, I love this freedom. It's the same freedom I have knowing you won't get me lynched, A. Because it's day 1 and B. Because you have no case beyond you hate my attacks on you. Well boohoo.
And run through the exact details of vaimes obvtowning compared to where he was suspicious, run me through that thought process of you can.
I've addressed all of this in my most recent post. This is mostly bull*****, so read my response and get back to me.
It's pretty rare to see a scum go this crazy early on, I wanted to poke him for his distancing but honestly he's been a run away train so far that I tend to think is town.
I don't have a problem with any of Necarg's posts so far, to answer a Generic curiosity a ways back. Although I find it adorable he calls his posts this game 'long' when I am used to massive walls of text.
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#122, #132, and #143 specifically, but I agree with his analysis of fulcrum.
Oh, and on Vaimes's most recent question to me, in #112, Cythare can see me as suspicious, but I think the real suspicious one(s) are fulcrum and generic if fulcrum is town. However, I'm not offended or anything at the votes against me.
Note: I am aware that I am on most people's watch list, but this seems to be common this early, by the games I've played IRL.
I was hoping for actual points instead of just posts. Also not a fan of the hedge here. You're taking Generic's side here, but if fulcrum is town, then Generic is likely scum?
Where did I omgus you? I was voting and pressing you first. You then suddenly have a scum read on me afterwards... In case you are a little slow fulcrum, that's OMGUS.
Thanks though for quoting the misrep, nowhere in there so I attack you for having two suspects and only voting one. You have one vote, I've played nearly a hundred games so to get that wrong would be insane. What o have pointed out though is you couldn't vote for me because that would be blatant OMGUS, you attempted subtle and hoped you would get support in either my lynch or a focus elsewhere. You at first were trying to hide from me, so I know you clearly feared the interaction.
And no, it's not my job to try and make friends, sell being town or make you feel better about yourself. I'm here to find scum, I think you are one, so now pretending I'm not making things easy for you to see me as town has zero value to me because you already know my alignment. And the sheer fact you are trying to u turn on your read on me using others as a human shield is quite pathetic.
And also... Your second strongest town read you described as a 'light townread'... So what does that make the two in the third group exactly?
Vaimes questions were fluff and pointless. He needed coaching to make them have a point. And he then spends half his numerous posts talking about his own meta. And this is obvtown to you?
Clearly you have info in this game I do not. Scum generally have that privileged position.
This. Is. Stupid.
Your points are nonsensical. You don't understand what OMGUS means. Of course I have more information on Vaimes then you do, he's one of my best friends. What the ****.
OMGUS means oh my god, you suck (for voting me). It is attacking someone explicitly because they are attacking you, with no other logic. It is the main argument you are making against me.
I am arguing that I don't like the way you went about pressuring me, Vaimes and Necarg and that you are not putting in any effort to solve the game. Instead, you are throwing ***** arguments around and latching onto any minor, stupid thing you can. That argument is not OMGUS.
Did I say you have to be voted to OMGUS? No? Wow, you just made up something again. What a shock.
You also never called Vaimes town. You said "Vaimes stands out as panicking like a tax dodger in April, but I have this nagging feeling that he is just trying k climb out of a hole by digging deeper," "Well you will have to post this all game or else it would clearly look like panic, so you declaring that means nothing to me," and "You are reading like textbook scum Mr V, it's just a gut feeling about it all seeming too obvious that's stopping me joining the push on you. And since when has a day 1 reading been worth ***** from anyone?"
Oh look, it's weak pressure but avoiding actually joining the wagon, exactly like I said it was.
You keep calling my list "arbitrary" based on nothing. Stop that.
To quickly introduce myself to vaimes/anyone else who hasn't played with me, this is my 3rd game on this site and I also have 3 semi-serious games completed on a flamingo offsite. I would describe myself as a 'transparent' / easily read player, luckily I rolled town this game so I can put my focus into trying to improve my own player-reading skills. My username is a random word starting with 'A' because I like being alphabetically superior to people. It also happens to be proph's irl name.
necrag seems pretty town to me. Vaimes does too, but to a lesser extent since he says he's from MS and from what I've heard folks over there put most of their emphasis into appearing townie.
I read the fulcrum/generic 1v1 closely, both sides look like they have real conviction behind their words and honestly believe their facts are correct. I think it's a classic town-on-town slapfight. Unfortunately this one looks like it's going to get messy since they both also seem to have really big egos.
I don't like cythare so far. Despite some isolated back and forth with generic he's managed to skirt around the generic v fulcrum argument completely. He's also going after necrag who, let's just say if he were a fruit he wouldn't be hanging very high. Post #145 where he quotes huntzilla is the most telling, he ignores the fight directly above him and quotes a post that quotes a post that doesn't really say anything, just to continue to not say anything. He isn't trying to find scum, he's just posting to exist.
To quickly introduce myself to vaimes/anyone else who hasn't played with me, this is my 3rd game on this site and I also have 3 semi-serious games completed on a flamingo offsite. I would describe myself as a 'transparent' / easily read player, luckily I rolled town this game so I can put my focus into trying to improve my own player-reading skills. My username is a random word starting with 'A' because I like being alphabetically superior to people. It also happens to be proph's irl name.
necrag seems pretty town to me. Vaimes does too, but to a lesser extent since he says he's from MS and from what I've heard folks over there put most of their emphasis into appearing townie.
I read the fulcrum/generic 1v1 closely, both sides look like they have real conviction behind their words and honestly believe their facts are correct. I think it's a classic town-on-town slapfight. Unfortunately this one looks like it's going to get messy since they both also seem to have really big egos.
I don't like cythare so far. Despite some isolated back and forth with generic he's managed to skirt around the generic v fulcrum argument completely. He's also going after necrag who, let's just say if he were a fruit he wouldn't be hanging very high. Post #145 where he quotes huntzilla is the most telling, he ignores the fight directly above him and quotes a post that quotes a post that doesn't really say anything, just to continue to not say anything. He isn't trying to find scum, he's just posting to exist.
Vote Cythare
I agree that Generic/fulcrum reads like a town-on-town slapfight. I don't have anything else to add to that. What do you want me to say about it?
Also, Necarg may be low-hanging fruit, but it doesn't make his posting any less bad.
Did you have that opinion before I posted it? Or was your mind blank on the issue beforehand?
Yes, there are a couple people (sir chris and Ioran) who also made posts without touching on the subject dominating the thread, but unlike them you've been more active and have been directly and indirectly interacting with the people involved.
What I 'wanted' you to do was look at the issue and at least attempt to figure out which one is scum, or both, or neither. That would be a scumhunting mindset, and that isn't what I see.
If I don't think either one is scum, though, I don't really see the issue. Scumhunting and townhunting are very different, and I tend to dislike townhunting. There's nothing I need to comment on there.
I am just about moved in now, but I have a couple of important jobs to get done before reading up. Finger crossed though, I should be about to produce a proper post tonight.
It's hypocritical because you expect me to figure things out, even though you're only real read is on me and that's so cheap because you know my playstyle better than I do.
Your read on Chris feels stretchy since I'm town, but I'll see how it pans out as far as being independently scummy goes.
I don't expect you to figure things out. I expect you to try. Surely you understand the difference?
--
Cythare is my top town for a three word post. Feels weird, man.
Huntzilla, a lot of people are voting here and making cases (however weak) for mafia. Is there a reason you aren't?
I was asking some follow up questions of Vaimes, to get a little self meta response.
I was hoping to wait until everyone had posted before pushing through RVS and getting down to the serious business...
But if you would like to move along quicker I could be persuaded.
Most of your content has been in response to Vaimes. Where is your scum sense leading you now? You made a passing wave at Rhand. Are you familiar with many of the other players in this game as well? Were you planning on answering Vaimes questions? Or are you avoiding them?
@Necarg- your post #57 looks like coaching. Is there a reason you feel it is necessary to tell someone you are thinking is a scumspect to "knock it off," so to speak? and your #55... I've seen bigger.
Alright, I like Huntzilla for town for trying to figure things out before jumping on the wagon.
First, Vaimes has been obvious town for more than a day now. Of the people who followed me onto him, Sepiriel is quite clearly the worst, for precisely the reason Ioran just stated, which makes Ioran a light townread. Generic is the second worst, for the way he's been trying to get Vaimes lynched /without even voting/. I suspect Generic was hoping to get me lynched after Vaimes flipped town.
Second, I don't have a problem with Necrag, mainly because I have the perspective thst Vaimes is town. I think he's low hanging fruit and further dislike Generic for going after him.
I don't understand why you are having so much difficulty with this. Do you not get how time works?
I townread Cythare when he, Vaimes and I were the only ones posting in the thread. I'm not going to clear him for that, and it wasn't as towny as Ioran's thing that occurred later.
The case against you is three-fold:
1. You fully supported the push on Vaimes without voting, which allows you to vote him down the line if the wagon pans out. You claimed to have said you townread him. This is false. In fact, you went after him harder than both Sir Chris and Necarg, both of whom were voting.
2.You asked for opinions from me, Vaimes and Sir Chris on Necrag instead of engaging him yourself.
3.Your case against me is based solely on omgus and misunderstandings on your part. You are making no effort to correct these misunderstandings because you do not care about solving the game.
I am going after everyone I engage hard, just because I apply pressure doesn't mean I assume they are scum without a doubt. I trust my gut and I have twice said that's telling me not to pursue that avenue. I didn't need a gut call with you, and hiding behind my pressure on one person when I also applied pressure to antny without him even being here off an Rvs vote is comical.
Yet you didn't engage Necarg hard. You asked other people to do it for you.
Do I have to give you all the advantages? I put three of you on the spot because you three interested me, and I had already stated necargs post was atrocious... As for not engaging, you kidding me right? You actively tried to hide from me. So do I assume that's you admitting scum by you trying to scum read me with that as a logic
You made a joke attempt at a psychological profile because you (wrongly) thought it would sound cool. Why would I bother replying?
And I thought you said you were t claiming I was omgusing you? That changed back has it? Seems you still haven't learned OMGUS... I voted you, continued to call you out and haven't once dropped my attack... So what was I omgusing off exactly? Your arbitrary pointless t/s list came out after I scum read you... So again, you omgused. Is English your second language perhaps?
Jesus Christ.
OMGUS has almost nothing to do with voting. It's attacking someone because they attacked you. Period. That's not what I'm doing. I'm attacking you because your /method/ of attacking me is horrific. Do you not understand that difference?
1. You are omgusing under my definition. Do I need to quote the posts?
2. My top scumread isn't here. When he gets here, I will engage him.
3. You treated Necarg like a top scum read, then did nothing with it except try to guide me, Sir Chris and Vaimes into attacking him. You cannot deny that you did this.
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So, odds are that the scumteam is completely spread out. One on my wagon, and then the other two are off on whatever wagons.
Of the people on my wagon, I think fulcrum is town. I don't really have a read on Sir Chris. Necarg is a self-proclaimed bandwagoner. Sepiriel read Way Way Way Too Into my vote on him, but, y'know. A for effort? It's kind of a mess. Right now I'd order them from most to least suspicious: Necarg > Sepiriel > Sir Chris > fulcrum.
Of the whatever wagoners, I have a tonwread on Huntzilla, and. That's it.Everyone else is either me or hasn't really posted anything. Except I guess Cythare? Who's just been dealing with Generic.
Eh. This is harder to do than I thought it'd be, since there's still a couple of people who just RVS'd and haven't done anything else. I'll come back to this.
Necarg, what do you think of Sepiriel? Ask them some questions, please? Also, what do you think of Cythare's vote on you?
As you were.
Are most of you not American w/r/t time zones? It feels like I'm playing with a bunch of Bubble Buddies.
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You're waiting on an explanation of a first post vote? This is not exactly difficult to understand.
In the meantime, can we all just slow the hell down? There is no reason less than 24 hours in, before basically every poster can check in, that we have a freaking wagon already. Cut that out.
Anyhow, Necarg's posts read as bad townie, not scum. Generic reads as ANNOYING townie. Vaimes just reads as annoying. This many annoying players is going to be a problem, sigh.
Oh and this:
is just reaching HARD. Like incredibly hard. Guess my vote just lost its randomness.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
First, Vaimes has been obvious town for more than a day now. Of the people who followed me onto him, Sepiriel is quite clearly the worst, for precisely the reason Ioran just stated, which makes Ioran a light townread. Generic is the second worst, for the way he's been trying to get Vaimes lynched /without even voting/. I suspect Generic was hoping to get me lynched after Vaimes flipped town.
Second, I don't have a problem with Necrag, mainly because I have the perspective thst Vaimes is town. I think he's low hanging fruit and further dislike Generic for going after him.
My reads are:
Fulcrum
Vaimes
Huntzilla
Ioran
Cythare
Necarg
Atogaholic
Antny
Sir Chris
Rhand
Generic
Sepiriel
Vote Sepiriel
The bolding is mine...
But do you actually believe that Generic would be trying to chain mislynches as scum this early? Gen is a freaking pitbull, but no one would be able to get away with that this close to the beginning of day one. I don't have a problem with your mistrust of his intentions or his actions. But I can't believe that he would be trying to chain mislynches this early. This seems like a serious stretch.
Wagons are in their own right fine. It is exerting pressure and getting discussion rolling. Why should we not have any wagons at this point exactly?
Oh and before I forget again, take away the RVS vote...
Unvote
But I literally only have one game with him, so eh.
Or your wagon is all scum! Anything is possible in a vacuum and when you assign your own context to it. It's a little early for vote analysis. Now, looking at the behavior of WHY and HOW is a good idea. Necarg felt off when inching onto your wagon. Sepi jumped on full force. Fulcrum was setting a trap it would appear. I actually have to look back at Sir Chris' reason, as I can't seem to remember.
Of those, you think Necarg is the most suspicious. I would agree with this assessment. I do worry that it is simply him being new to the site that is what we are reading as scummy.
Huntzilla: You're quite thinking about it the right way. By casting doubt on but not going head to head with me /and/ Vaimes /and/ Necarg, scum!Generic gets to set the groundwork for the rest of the Day and set up mislynch for most eventualities (like Vaimes claiming PR, for instance). It's the beginnings of an attempt to look good by "scumhunting" without committing to far in one direction or aligning to hard with a teammate. It has the added bonus of promoting paranoia among the town from the very beginning.
I'm not sure yet (or I'd be voting him), but his responses aren't helping him.
Hey Generic,
With Fulcrum a definite scum for you now, do you still feel there is one scum left in the Vaimes/Cythare/Necarg/Antsy pool? If so, does anyone stand out to you more at this time?
IIoA?
Not sure of that acronym...
Do you always make ridiculous assumptions, because you've already a *****ton this game?
It's just like the Vaimes thing. Why would I ever attack town Vaimes as mafia when he's the easiest person in the world for me to manipulate?
How can you say that I was trying to hit Vaimes before he hits me when he clearly believes I'm town and I know him well enough to know that he'd think that way as town? Why don't you just ask us about these things?
When did I ever say that my entire push on him was a trap? I didn't, because his opening play was his scumplay, so I investigated. Then he became obvious town, so I decided to get something out of it, because I'm pretty damn good at wagon analysis.
How can you say I never explained my Ioran read when I said he had the exact same read of Sepiriel as I do, "which makes him a light townread"?
How can I possibly believe you aren't scum?
I'm trying, I really am. Ioran called you town and I think he's town and knows what he's doing, but for the life of me, I can't see it.
Also, fulcrum's point on IIoA is spot-on here. You talk about "looking at the behavior of WHY and HOW" and then just state facts. Looking at the approach is important, but just reiterating what happened isn't. Your post here ends up being less useful than the post you're referring to, where Vaimes actually does provide context for his reads.
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Beginning of the game, she sets a trap for Vaimes, knowing his playstyle and being able to use that to her advantage. She gets a few to follow her against Vaimes, then jumps ship afterwards. Then, she attacks generic. I am on the side of generic, and I agree with his points. So, I'm moving my vote to fulcrum.
unvote
Vote Fulcrum
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Oh, and on Vaimes's most recent question to me, in #112, Cythare can see me as suspicious, but I think the real suspicious one(s) are fulcrum and generic if fulcrum is town. However, I'm not offended or anything at the votes against me.
Note: I am aware that I am on most people's watch list, but this seems to be common this early, by the games I've played IRL.
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Vaimes will back it up. I've been nearly confirmed mafia in a game with him and still got him to vote the way I wanted.
???
Ioran is my second strongest townread at the moment. I agreed with ever read and reason he gave in that post except for the read on you. Vaimes, my strongest townread, has said that you have a meta of being super scummy (as you are being now) as town. In addition, my own memories of you back up that you tunnel on stupid things regardless of alignment. So, I don't want to focus on you when I have a stronger scumread on Sepiriel, but you're making that very difficult.
It is your job as town ,in addition to finding scum, to sell yourself as town. You are doing neither. I consider my reads important to me for obvious reasons.
I don't know you well enough to know if that's true. You could feel freedom posting as mafia or be good enough to fake it. That makes this defense completely irrelevant.
In addition, it's annoying because now I have to waste time defending myself against nothing. What little of a case you have articulated is just wrong, something you would know if you actually bothered to read my posts and think before posting. Stop wasting my time and read the game.
Vaimes became obv town around the time he posted that list of questions to everyone in post 22. You can see me realize it in post 32 and 35, waffle over continuing pushing him in post 41 and decide to continue pushing for reactions in post 45. It's difficult to explain my full read of Vaimes because it's so wrapped up in a complex understanding of him as a person, but I'd be absolutely shocked if he were scum here.
It wasn't labeled because I was phone posted, as I have now told you for the third ******* time. When I am phone posting, I am going to be as succinct as possible. There is some burden on you to realize that everyone not on that pile had some sort of reasoning for their placement given in that post or others before it and that everyone in that pile has hardly posted and not been addressed by me. Again, this falls under reading the game.
Ok, we need to talk about this. When you're playing a game of mafia, it helps to outline your thought process as much as possible. Start by explaining why. Why is Vaimes now "clearly not scum"? What specifically changed your mind? Do you have any reservations (like the fact that I'm defending him and you think I'm scum)? How exactly did I "set a trap for Vaimes"? (Keep in mind that when you reply to this one, I'm going to explain why you're wrong, because I did not do that.) How did I use my knowledge of Vaimes' playstyle to my advantage and, more importantly, why does that make me scum? What do you think of my points against Generic? What about Sepiriel, who I think is the more likely scum between the two? What points of Generic do you agree with?
You get the idea. Flesh out your ideas and it will get people to townread you, regardless of you alignment. Remember that you're aiming to convince people, both that you're town and that your worldview is the correct one.
Ok, then let's dissect these:
This isn't a case, this an OMGUS (Oh my god, you suck). I pointed out legitimate problems with Generic's play, and he came back with "How dare you attack two people while only voting one of them. Hypocrisy." The difference, of course, is that I'm making the cases and attacking myself, whereas Generic asked people to attack his scumreads for him (see him asking me, Vaimes and Sir Chris for our opinions on you). Generic's reads, until I went after him, were wishy-washy, and based on nothing. He left doors open to vote on Vaimes or defend him, go after me or leave me be, and attack you or leave you alone based on what others would say about you. It's weak and I expect better.
The numbers are mine.
1 is a false statement. I've explained basically everything I've done. Generic did not point to anything specific here, because there is nothing specific to point to. The second part of it is more OMGUS, "how dare you attack me," etc.
2 is stupid. Generic is trying to claim that I backed off Vaimes because pressure slowed down, as if three other people weren't still voting for him and four had yet to check in. It's also needlessly aggressive, when all he has to do is /ask/ for why I initially pressured and then backed off of Vaimes, and then he can dissect my answers. This is the path someone who wants to figure out the game should take.
3 isn't actually a point against me, but I'm going to use to point out that if Generic strongly believes Vaimes and I cannot be scum together, then he should ask Vaimes, a close friend of mine who has played numerous games with me, about the things I'm doing (like the arrangement of my readwall). He hasn't, either because he's too lazy to try to figure out the game or because he's scum.
I've addressed all of this in my most recent post. This is mostly bull*****, so read my response and get back to me.
It's pretty rare to see a scum go this crazy early on, I wanted to poke him for his distancing but honestly he's been a run away train so far that I tend to think is town.
I don't have a problem with any of Necarg's posts so far, to answer a Generic curiosity a ways back. Although I find it adorable he calls his posts this game 'long' when I am used to massive walls of text.
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This. Is. Stupid.
Your points are nonsensical. You don't understand what OMGUS means. Of course I have more information on Vaimes then you do, he's one of my best friends. What the ****.
I am arguing that I don't like the way you went about pressuring me, Vaimes and Necarg and that you are not putting in any effort to solve the game. Instead, you are throwing ***** arguments around and latching onto any minor, stupid thing you can. That argument is not OMGUS.
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Curse PremiumConflict's Chime
(7 to lynch)
fulcrum (3): Rhand, Generic, Necarg
Necarg (2): Vaimes, Cythare
Sepiriel (2): loran16, fulcrum
Generic (1): Antny223
Sir Chris (1): Atogaholic
Vaimes (1): Sepiriel
Abstain (2): Huntzilla, Sir Chris
Rhand (24th) and Antny223 (14th) are on V/LA.
You also never called Vaimes town. You said "Vaimes stands out as panicking like a tax dodger in April, but I have this nagging feeling that he is just trying k climb out of a hole by digging deeper," "Well you will have to post this all game or else it would clearly look like panic, so you declaring that means nothing to me," and "You are reading like textbook scum Mr V, it's just a gut feeling about it all seeming too obvious that's stopping me joining the push on you. And since when has a day 1 reading been worth ***** from anyone?"
Oh look, it's weak pressure but avoiding actually joining the wagon, exactly like I said it was.
You keep calling my list "arbitrary" based on nothing. Stop that.
To quickly introduce myself to vaimes/anyone else who hasn't played with me, this is my 3rd game on this site and I also have 3 semi-serious games completed on a flamingo offsite. I would describe myself as a 'transparent' / easily read player, luckily I rolled town this game so I can put my focus into trying to improve my own player-reading skills. My username is a random word starting with 'A' because I like being alphabetically superior to people. It also happens to be proph's irl name.
necrag seems pretty town to me. Vaimes does too, but to a lesser extent since he says he's from MS and from what I've heard folks over there put most of their emphasis into appearing townie.
I read the fulcrum/generic 1v1 closely, both sides look like they have real conviction behind their words and honestly believe their facts are correct. I think it's a classic town-on-town slapfight. Unfortunately this one looks like it's going to get messy since they both also seem to have really big egos.
I don't like cythare so far. Despite some isolated back and forth with generic he's managed to skirt around the generic v fulcrum argument completely. He's also going after necrag who, let's just say if he were a fruit he wouldn't be hanging very high. Post #145 where he quotes huntzilla is the most telling, he ignores the fight directly above him and quotes a post that quotes a post that doesn't really say anything, just to continue to not say anything. He isn't trying to find scum, he's just posting to exist.
Vote Cythare
Also, Necarg may be low-hanging fruit, but it doesn't make his posting any less bad.
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Yes, there are a couple people (sir chris and Ioran) who also made posts without touching on the subject dominating the thread, but unlike them you've been more active and have been directly and indirectly interacting with the people involved.
What I 'wanted' you to do was look at the issue and at least attempt to figure out which one is scum, or both, or neither. That would be a scumhunting mindset, and that isn't what I see.
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Yep, no reasoning there.
I love you.
I don't understand why you are having so much difficulty with this. Do you not get how time works?
I townread Cythare when he, Vaimes and I were the only ones posting in the thread. I'm not going to clear him for that, and it wasn't as towny as Ioran's thing that occurred later.
The case against you is three-fold:
1. You fully supported the push on Vaimes without voting, which allows you to vote him down the line if the wagon pans out. You claimed to have said you townread him. This is false. In fact, you went after him harder than both Sir Chris and Necarg, both of whom were voting.
2.You asked for opinions from me, Vaimes and Sir Chris on Necrag instead of engaging him yourself.
3.Your case against me is based solely on omgus and misunderstandings on your part. You are making no effort to correct these misunderstandings because you do not care about solving the game.
Yet you didn't engage Necarg hard. You asked other people to do it for you.
You made a joke attempt at a psychological profile because you (wrongly) thought it would sound cool. Why would I bother replying?
Jesus Christ.
OMGUS has almost nothing to do with voting. It's attacking someone because they attacked you. Period. That's not what I'm doing. I'm attacking you because your /method/ of attacking me is horrific. Do you not understand that difference?
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1. You are omgusing under my definition. Do I need to quote the posts?
2. My top scumread isn't here. When he gets here, I will engage him.
3. You treated Necarg like a top scum read, then did nothing with it except try to guide me, Sir Chris and Vaimes into attacking him. You cannot deny that you did this.