MTG Salvation

@ZDS: I am still on scum!Rhand here. I believe Generic more than Rhand, and I can't see how a doctor and a bodyguard are compatible. I don't have any specific feelings about Rhand targeting Vaimes, since it was agreed upon yesterDay.

I am a bit concerned about Generic's hesitancy to vote Rhand, given that it doesn't mesh with his bulldog attitude on earlier Days, but he's still far and away the townier player between himself and Rhand.

@Cythare: so you don't think a doctor and bodyguard are compatible but a tracker and watcher are?

I didn't respond earlier toDay because of mobile. I didn't submit my Night action because I forgot to do it before I left for FNM on Friday and then lost track of time. That was completely unrelated to the power thing.

What part of "I didn't want to target Rhand because I didn't want to mess up the stated plan between Rhand/Sepiriel/Atog" was unclear? It didn't end up mattering because Sepiriel lied and Vaimes died anyways, but my goal was to not ***** all over that plan, as I already stated a couple hours ago.

I explained why I didn't want to kill Rhand. It may have been an incorrect assessment for the reasons you stated, but the only thing I had decided was not to kill Rhand.

I didn't claim that you need to be battering everyone - I'm just surprised that you're not battering Rhand, given that you stated that you don't think your role and his role are compatible - unless it's like in Futurama Mafia, where I was the scum Doctor who got counterclaimed by the town Doctor.

As far as reads go:
Town
fulcrum
Generic
Necarg
ZeDorkSlipeur

Unsure
Atogaholic
Sepiriel

Scum
Rhand

I still have Rhand as my top suspect. I think that the other scum is probably between Atog and Sep, primarily based on POE - I can't see you, fulcrum, or Necarg as scum. ZDS has been putting a lot of effort into actually questioning people and reads strongly as town as well. Atog's baffling claim plus POE has knocked him down a peg for me.

Sorry for the delay guys.

@ZDS: Yes perhaps i should have told Rhand my BP but i couldnt be perfectly assured yet at that point, if anything i was thinking that in case he was scum his assumption that i had BP left and that i would follow his target selection would be enough to perhaps redirect to me (the more i think it over the less sense it makes ill be honest but at the time i submitted my PM to the mod i was pretty sure that it could work as a second safeguard since i was the only one to know the real target for Rhand).

I dislike Cyth's reasoning, considering his supposed plan for N1 "Im gonna default so i can shoot better" then he doesnt even though he was given an extra BP, now last Night when he statistically had better odds of shooting for 0 and nailing his target he doesnt because he forgot to simply submit a PM saying "shoot rhand for 0" under the reasoning of "I am still sure Rhand is scum but i am going to hesitate because i am not sure who else to shoot"... i've disliked Cyth's reasoning since the first time he claimed, worse thing is he 'forgetting' to submit a PM also means he didnt gain any BP so he is now once more in his supposed 'limited' range which he didnt want to shoot from to begin with

Vote Cythare
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@ZDS: I can agree that nature is hard to change in someone, thats not really a statement i can realistically defend against in a medium such as this since no one here knows me in person, i can only say that the drive/intensity i had back then is not the same as what i can put out right now in my personal opinion, regardless of alignment.

Nice misrep, Sepiriel. Also, forgetting to submit an action caused me to default, so I did gain BP.

I'm actually ok with Cythare's explanation for not shooting? It won't fly twice, but for toDay, I wouldn't lynch him.

@Gen: Yeah the versatility of the role design wise is not a point in favor or against me, i've never claimed such, you being able to win a mafia game with it (im assuming you refer to winning as scum) is great for you stat wise but again it doesnt mean anything in relation to this game since the role is so versatile that it can be a scum role just as easily as a town role (as it is in this case), at best your middle statement is annecdotal just to make a point.

Yeah im always standing out as a suspect, thats nothing new in any game i've been in at some point or another, that being said i dislike the way it makes it sound like im the only one with that pattern so far.
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@Cyth: its not a misrep, it may be a bit more mean spirited in my wording that it would be polite but it is still at its crux the arguments and rationale you have presented, now you go ahead and amend yourself to state you defaulted as a result of 'no action', oh and your whole "I didnt want to mess the sep/rhand/atog test" makes no sense since the test only tested atogs tracker claim and only pseudo confirmed rhands ability to target last night at all, even if by the action order atog went after you he still should have been given a result in regards to where rhand targeted last Night, as such you had mechanically no reason to fear the track not going through.

Whats more, considering the end result (vaimes dying), you would have also cleared yourself since you would have then been able to account for the rhand kill (since rhand claims sacrifice Bodyguard and we would have had 2 kills), in short you suddenly 'defaulting' is the most damming result for you

How is defaulting damning? It didn't occur to me that I even needed to clarify that not submitting any action would result in defaulting. It has nothing to do with fearing Atog's track not going through - it's about the loss of discussion for confirmation. The person that everyone else wanted to test was Atog, so not having Rhand alive to confirm his target would defeat the entire point of the test. I am scumreading Rhand, but that wasn't the point of the exercise.

Vote Sepiriel

But by that logic i had the name of rhands target. So unless you are now saying atog and i are scum then there was also no problem in shooting rhand since i could have just as easily confirmed/denied the target.

hell even if we go by the crazy assumption that rhand and i are both scum and we played an elaborate gambit that required we tied to each other to get atog killed it would have still done nothing in the end since that would have resulted in 2 dead scum and me super tied and defended by flipped scum, in short you would have had to consider all three of atog, rhand and i all being a combination of 2-3 scum that are playing a super gambit of some form or another.

Im at L-1 i think. (Is it 4 to lynch or 5 i cant double check since im phone posting)

I'm going to do a re-read tonight and tomorrow and then probably put Sepiriel at L-1.

Quote from Cythare »

How is defaulting damning? It didn't occur to me that I even needed to clarify that not submitting any action would result in defaulting. It has nothing to do with fearing Atog's track not going through - it's about the loss of discussion for confirmation. The person that everyone else wanted to test was Atog, so not having Rhand alive to confirm his target would defeat the entire point of the test. I am scumreading Rhand, but that wasn't the point of the exercise.

Vote Sepiriel

You're scumreading me but you vote the wagon I started?

Back. Have to go to FNM in about 10 minutes. Will catch up in a few hours when I get back. Ask away in the meantime.

Quote from Rhand »

@Cythare: so you don't think a doctor and bodyguard are compatible but a tracker and watcher are?

I'm being setup-punished for optimal play here
If I get lynched, don't you all go lynching Generic toMorrow please.

Quote from Generic »

Well let's have the discussion Rhand. Your point about the watcher reminded me we have a jack of all trades. Looking up his powers he has a self protect that seems unlimited (depending on BP of course.

How can bullet proof, doctor and bodyguard all be in play?

Scum already showed an unblockable kill. If that one is BP-activated, then they have more than one.
Maybe Cythare is also scum with all the town protecting power. But if he is, then Sepiriel isn't.

I am Holly Whyte, white mage.

Quote from Rhand »

Quote from Cythare »

How is defaulting damning? It didn't occur to me that I even needed to clarify that not submitting any action would result in defaulting. It has nothing to do with fearing Atog's track not going through - it's about the loss of discussion for confirmation. The person that everyone else wanted to test was Atog, so not having Rhand alive to confirm his target would defeat the entire point of the test. I am scumreading Rhand, but that wasn't the point of the exercise.

Vote Sepiriel

You're scumreading me but you vote the wagon I started?

Yes. I don't see why you two can't both be scum. I know Generic said this, but nothing I've seen says you can't be.

To answer your other question, I am skeptical about the town having so much protection. I already addressed this, albeit without quoting you directly, because I was talking to Generic:

Quote from Cythare »

I didn't claim that you need to be battering everyone - I'm just surprised that you're not battering Rhand, given that you stated that you don't think your role and his role are compatible - unless it's like in Futurama Mafia, where I was the scum Doctor who got counterclaimed by the town Doctor.

I didn't specifically state it here, but I also don't think your roles are compatible for both being town.

I'm The Jackal, Thief.

Either Generic or Rhand is lying. Rhand's claim seems a bit more town oriented, or at the least, less feasible for scum to have. These two roles can't really coexist. I don't think that a JOAT and a tracker are incompatible. So, let's look at the claims.

hunt: Roleblocker/Manipulator
SC: VT
Atog: Tracker
Sep: Neighboriser
ZDS: VT
Cythare: Vig
Fulcrum:Vampire
Antny: VT
Vaimes: JOAT
Generic: Doc
Rhand: Bodyguard
Me: Inventor

So, what I gather is that Fulcrum is probs not lying (but the role could still be scum), and we started with 3 protectors. Something else to note, we also had 3 BP givers, one of which was scum. Could the same be true for protection?

Sep, Generic, and Rhand are my three top scumspects.

Also, I'm pretty sure I claimed a name a while back. I'm Fiore DeRosa, Red Mage.

PEDIT: Wait, wait, wait. Pardon? Cythare's title is "thief"? That sure as heck doesn't stack up. I don't think a vig is commonly called a thief.
Vote Cythare because that name makes absolutely no sense if you are a vig.

unvote vote Cythare

Assuming both me and Sepi can be scum together because "nothing I've seen says you can't be" shows he's not reading the game with the intent of solving it.
And I have a townread on Generic. For us to co-exist in town, the killing role must be scum. (if he even can kill)

my computer is dieing on me today. I've been swearing all day trying to play mafia on it. The ZDS quotes will have to wait another day

Quote from Necarg »

PEDIT: Wait, wait, wait. Pardon? Cythare's title is "thief"? That sure as heck doesn't stack up. I don't think a vig is commonly called a thief.
Vote Cythare because that name makes absolutely no sense if you are a vig.

Thief is my character's role name, like Vaimes's was "Conjurer" and yours is apparently "red mage".

Quote from Cythare »

Quote from Necarg »

PEDIT: Wait, wait, wait. Pardon? Cythare's title is "thief"? That sure as heck doesn't stack up. I don't think a vig is commonly called a thief.
Vote Cythare because that name makes absolutely no sense if you are a vig.

Thief is my character's role name, like Vaimes's was "Conjurer" and yours is apparently "red mage".

Thief still doesn't make sense for your role unless you're hiding something from us. Vampire makes sense to steal life. Conjurer makes sense to conjure up different abilities, Thief does not make sense to just... kill people and do absolutely nothing else. Some titles, as we've seen, are just "X Mage". Vote stays on Cythare because the title is completely incompatible with what he's said about his role so far.

Also, Generic, please name claim as well.

If that's what you're voting me for, I've got nothing else to add that can change your mind.

Can we not lynch someone based on flavorgaming their rolename? Thanks. Additionally I don't see how Cythare's response is condemning at all.

I'm not interested in lynching Cythare, Sepiriel, or Rhand today. I've looked closely for who Generic's scummate could be and ZDS looks like the best bet so far. I'll extrapolate on these reads in a bit.

@ZDS: I know my timing sucks to say the least but i csnnot say more than i have been having a bad couple of weeks of late, just now for example te last 48hrs have had me in th3 hospital taking care of my mother-in-law, so yeah my posting has been bad lately because of reasons, im aware that is not worth much for a defense but its the truth and its the only thing i can offer in regards to that.

-------
Also i know this one goes into flavor a bit but a red mage kinda makes sense with the inventor role, the JoaT would have been a better fit imo but inventor and joat are similar enough in concept that either works for a red mage.

ZDS is scum if Cythare is scum: he knows "there are better reasons to be convinced Cythare is scum". Ergo, he knows it's true.

@Generic: I looked back to see where ZDS explained loran's behaviour. It's in his big catchup post. Both in the summary and in his notes.
The last thing anyone ever said about loran befre that post is you saying loran isn't high on anyone's scumlist, so I still don't get why ZDS felt the need to explain.

Among other reasons, Cythare's recent name claim and defense is unacceptable. Fulcrum, post your thoughts.

If cythare flips scum, ZDS is probs buddy.

Otherwise, I think it's a Rhand-Sep team.

Oh, I forgot the deadline was so close. :/

It's unlikely that anyone other than me is going to be lynched, so I'll self-hammer in a bit so we don't risk a No Lynch?

ZDS is town based on his reactions here.

Did anyone remember that Loran was the only one to really defend Hunt before he replaced out?

@Gen: Actually i have been considering replacing but i figured that things would settle down and i would get back into things (it also honestly doesnt feel fair to replace at this point, if anything i think i would place my replacement in too much of a stressful situation they would have to reread all this and then my on/off play already left a lot of people with an assumption that a replacement would be hard pressed to explain or defend against, so thats why im staying).

Lets start with my reads:
Cythare:
This one is easy to tell for anyone, cythare has been inconsistent, his reasoning and actions are just awful, he decided not to shoot for 1 on N1 even though he had a good statistical chance of hitting people with the extra BP given, whats more he decided to target not his main scum suspect (Antny) but instead went for his secondary (Rhand), that makes no sense, if you are already sure that you arent going to hit with your ability there is no reason to target your secondary suspect.

Then we have the 'no action' for N2, aside from the fact that he first claims "i forgot to submit so i didnt shoot" only later to go "Oh BECAUSE i forgot to submit i also Defaulted so i getz BP!" seems to off, and then you have the night result, an apparently unblockable kill and a vig that claims to have 'forgotten to shoot' and defaulted as a result? yeah im perfectly fine being suspicious there.

Cyth has gone about his role in the most horrible/inefficient way possible thats why he has my vote.

Atog:
I'll be honest im leaning scum here but closer to neutral, his play has been so ballsy that i cannot imagine it coming from scum (i actually told Rhand this yesterDay when i saw atogs response to the L-2 claim thing), but its because of exactly that that i dont want to clear him as town (i know it sounds odd but basically being so ballsy to not be considered scum is something i can imagine a strong player from being able to pull off).

Rhand:
This one is interesting, all of yesterDay I played a Game within a Game with Rhand, there were parts when he convinced me he was town and there where parts when i started doubting, ill go for full disclosure here since i dont see the point in hiding, Rhand and I suspected Generic as scum yesterDay, there were even parts where Rhand pointed out to me that it could be 'classic gen scum', he cautioned me to first find examples tho because if i cant back it up Gen would rip me to shreds over it (and although i thanked him i also told Rhand that i dont think im good enough to find those examples, nor did i feel i had the time to go through Gens games to find them).

Now the part that got me a bit worried about rhand was this: there was a point after i went through the mod to clarify the whole Cythare thing (the action order made it look impossible for rhand to survive at the time even with the 0 shot) that Rhand said he was now convinced im town in the thread here Gen had been pushing me and we were all talking about claims and whatnot, rhand said the he wished he hadn't called me scummy before since he would be ok claiming Mason with me, this was worrisome for me in a way because it made it so that it would auto clear Rhand once i flipped when in fact it wouldnt and also it would maintain rhands role hidden, this gave me pause (actually it was this that made me not want to fully disclose my BP to Rhand, its also something i didnt want to bring out just yet but i've decided to just spill everything now since i havent been as active as i should be).

Generic:
With you Gen im never sure, you have such a strong game regardless of alignment and you bulldog any attack/defense just as well in either alignment, this is again something Rhand pointed out about you for possibly being scum but told me not to try it unless i had solid proof to back it up. Im still a little unsure on you because of how you gave up the pilot seat and took on more of an observer role, i told rhand about this too, i told him it felt like an 'observer effect' kind of thing, since i pointed out how in control/aggressive you where being and how it reminded me of your scum attitude you took a step back in response.

Notes: I dont feel like Gen/Rhand are of the same alignment, it could be a gambit from both of them but i really doubt it, if one flips town im much more likely to believe the other to be scum, and all this was before the roles came out into play. Would a Rhand/Gen team counterclaim themselves in such a way? i think its possible with them but this is honestly my worse case scenario. As for who stands more scummy than the other i cannot tell, they are basically working as a buoy system for each other in terms of alignment (either by accident or design).

ZDS:
Interesting slot, i feel he has pushed me on/off, but its never felt really strong either way, like he pushes but just to test me, he has been very understanding of my absences even when he interposes it with complains about my lack of content, he was also one of the choices for using my ability that rhand gave me, i wonder what that means tho, Rhand told me he felt ZDS was town but if Rhand flips scum could it be he pushed me to use the ability on Vaimes and then gave me a soft nod at his buddy? Overall i feel ZDS is in my null pile right now.

Necarg:
I feel this slot is town, nothing about his play screams mafia, his counter claim to Huntz was completely unneeded at that point since fulcrum also counterclaimed him, and his posting so far just screams town, hell even the flavor gaming screams town, so no question there.

Fulcrum:
I had problems with him early game, i felt he was gambiting with vaimes in some way but that cc against huntz ended up sealing the deal his play afterwards i cannot really recall to be honest, its like he is around but not fully, I have him in my town pile but on the line to hop to neutral.

I'll try to post more from now on, things appear to be calming down but who knows with how things have been lately (i may be joining a an EMT training program by the Red Cross soon also)

EBWOP: Wow i did not realize deadline is so close, i thought we still had like 2-3 days left

Request Deadline Extention C (24h)

Sorry guys, I know I've been completely out of it but somehow this deadline managed to sneak up on me. I don't exactly know how useful this extension is but hopefully a miracle occurs and we can come to a decent lynch. I'm also hoping to see fulcrum's input, she's basically comf town and on a unique position to lay down some solid analysis, after all I've heard she was a good analyst by reputation.

Here's a quick condensed version of my reads: I don't believe for a second Huntzilla would give 2 bp to 2 town prs and then have both prs conveniently do nothing with the bp. The permutation that makes the most sense is: Huntzilla gave town!cytgare bp because the requested it, then after huntzilla's implosion he gave the other to scum!generic. This, coupled with the rhand ditchotomy, generic's posts right after I claimed, and a couple other posts that seemed.. bloodlusted is what spawned my scum read on him. ZDS's scum read comes from poe'ing out everyone else as generic's buddy, and also his seeming willingness to swap between ez-lynch targets near the end of D2.
Honestly if I'm right, this is a really scary team to be facing down and convincing poeple has never been one of my strong points. However I'll still try to win this for us best as I can.

In case no one backs my extension request up in time, Cythare I reccomend you big zds tongihy.

oh wow i had forgotten about the extension options.

Seconding Request for Extension C

Quote from Atogaholic »

Here's a quick condensed version of my reads: I don't believe for a second Huntzilla would give 2 bp to 2 town prs and then have both prs conveniently do nothing with the bp. The permutation that makes the most sense is: Huntzilla gave town!cytgare bp because the requested it, then after huntzilla's implosion he gave the other to scum!generic. This, coupled with the rhand ditchotomy, generic's posts right after I claimed, and a couple other posts that seemed.. bloodlusted is what spawned my scum read on him. ZDS's scum read comes from poe'ing out everyone else as generic's buddy, and also his seeming willingness to swap between ez-lynch targets near the end of D2.
Honestly if I'm right, this is a really scary team to be facing down and convincing poeple has never been one of my strong points. However I'll still try to win this for us best as I can.

You do realize Generic was the first to seriously vote Huntzilla. Hunt would probably have survived that day if Generic hadn't intervened. I seriously doubt that scum!Generic would randomly bus when he had 1) no reasonable votes toward him, and 2) No pressure on his scumbuddies. Generic is smarter than that. If Generic was scum, Hunt would probably still be alive today.

I'm still think it's a Cythare-ZDS scumteam, or a Rhand-Sep scumteam.

Quote from Atogaholic »

Request Deadline Extention C (24h)

Sorry guys, I know I've been completely out of it but somehow this deadline managed to sneak up on me. I don't exactly know how useful this extension is but hopefully a miracle occurs and we can come to a decent lynch. I'm also hoping to see fulcrum's input, she's basically comf town and on a unique position to lay down some solid analysis, after all I've heard she was a good analyst by reputation.

Here's a quick condensed version of my reads: I don't believe for a second Huntzilla would give 2 bp to 2 town prs and then have both prs conveniently do nothing with the bp. The permutation that makes the most sense is: Huntzilla gave town!cytgare bp because the requested it, then after huntzilla's implosion he gave the other to scum!generic. This, coupled with the rhand ditchotomy, generic's posts right after I claimed, and a couple other posts that seemed.. bloodlusted is what spawned my scum read on him. ZDS's scum read comes from poe'ing out everyone else as generic's buddy, and also his seeming willingness to swap between ez-lynch targets near the end of D2.
Honestly if I'm right, this is a really scary team to be facing down and convincing poeple has never been one of my strong points. However I'll still try to win this for us best as I can.

In case no one backs my extension request up in time, Cythare I reccomend you big zds tongihy.

Generic's approach to trying to counterclaim my being motivated by Huntzilla initially read like it came from someone who wasn't aware of how Huntzilla's role worked (or wasn't aware of how the core mechanic worked). The way he backed away, didn't clarify what he did, asked something irrelevant (if someone targeted him), and never clarified his Night action does read strangely in retrospect. I'm not sure there's enough of an extension to muster any other lynches today, though.

WAIT

I got the notification about being motivated at the beginning of Night (because it was a Day action). The approach of Generic's claim made it seem like he thought he was given a BP at Night and was told to brave, and first felt out if anyone else had given it to him. I was given the notification within 10 minutes of the beginning of Night, because it was Huntzilla's Day action.

Unvote
Vote Generic

Hm, you're right. I want to hear Generic's reaction to this.

The thing about it is timing though: your wagon was just dissolving because of the vig claim, but there wasn't a real new wagon yet, so he didn't do it to push your lynch through to protect a buddy.
So why would scum!Generic counterclaim you at that point and not earlier or not at all?

I also second the request for deadline extension C

Yeah, I don't have an explanation for that unless it's something that just occurred to him then.

We're talking about your approach to counterclaiming me being motivated by Huntzilla.

If you got it at the beginning of Night, you should have realized it wasn't a Night action. Also, Huntzilla claimed it the previous Day.

So then you decided to ask everyone else rather than clarify why this was the case? Also, the "I don't read things in detail" is a *****ty play and I can't understand why you would assume that given the timing of what happened. Also, you were town reading both Necarg and fulcrum, I'd already stated I'd been forced to brave, and you assume that two roles would have the same rider to their BP giving?

It's scummy because it came across as fishing for more information under the guise of being completely oblivious.

<similar retort about OOG promises >

Also, the brave thing was mentioned repeatedly before you actually did your awkward dance.

I agree that there's no logical reason for you to do that except gain additional information.

I don't care about lynching scum out of nowhere - I've seen this done as a bus before.

This literally makes 0% sense.

I have been suspecting Rhand, and I've explained myself here. If it's been lacking, that's on me for sure. Your "outed doc" claim here is bull***** though - he's also come out as a protective role. Also, note that since I'm on the chopping block here, of course I'm going to review things.

And if "they" don't kill you? You're setting up a big jug of WIFOM here.

I guess that I'll just have to disappoint you if I'm the lynch for today. And yes, I recognize the irony in not noticing something immediately, but not reading a role, especially when you suspect you were targeted, and building a shoddy counterclaim on it, is a bit different. If you thought that you might have been affected by it and could counterclaim, why wouldn't you then go back and read Huntzilla's role to confirm?

Ok, the case on Generic is flimsy at best. Remember what happened with Hunt? When the scum tried to protect himself, he got caught making flimsy and/or false cases. Someone needs to vote Cythare here. This is a repeat of Hunt, and we need to treat it as such.