KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Two days ago Killjoy was all like "I am going to respond to this game when I have time, because there's a lot of stuff going on."
His next post is a wisp of an attack on Cyan.
That took you two days to conjure up?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
To be fair, I have been town once in like my last 6 games, and I survived for all of one day. But I'm relatively certain that I used that phrase in that game, because I use it as both alignments. I didn't get the nickname 'Train With No Breaks' without a reason. You can certainly find these instances if you go look for them. Which you obviously won't, given that you're not town.
Also, upon re-reading your post, I realize that you are saying that you've never seen ANY town make that statement(not just referring to me, which is what I thought it originally said), to which I respond..get out of here. You are just making ***** up as you go apparently.
I just want to go to bed but I have to do this eventually and I'm not putting it off longer
...**** I didn't get as far as his RVS post before deciding that the best way to figure out if he's scum is probably to hear his claim. He's in claim range, right? I don't know the votecount. I do know I want his claim rather badly.
Jumps on imab but so did everyone else so I can't really call it particularly opportunistic.
not to be found for two pages straight
page 4: I'm starting to feel it
it's happening, it's happening...
yep he's asking meaningless questions. That's his scum meta, right?
If not, there's still the I WAS JUST PRETENDING.
oh ***** he already claimed. Aaaaaaand he claimed the only claim that wouldn't make me insta-gib him. His RVS post made me believe he was either VT or scum given what info is available (he said glory to Russia, VTs are Russian, scum are presumably Russian from VT flavor, PRs sound like they aren't Russian)
that makes me unhappy
fuuuuuuuuck I can't help but feel that Kami's RVS was coming from a town perspective because it would be risky for him to claim Russian unless he specifically saw the VT flavor
so do I believe he saw the VT flavor?
does the JUST PRETENDING cancel out the chance?
most importantly does anyone remember his meta and if not, @KA: Last town, last scum game pls.
I don't think JUST PRETENDING is necessarily enough to go on alone so if meta backs it up I'll go with it but if it's only JUST PRETENDING it just doesn't feel right.
Two days ago Killjoy was all like "I am going to respond to this game when I have time, because there's a lot of stuff going on."
His next post is a wisp of an attack on Cyan.
That took you two days to conjure up?
Please see also: The Wall 2. You know, the other game where Killjoy was scum. Or just go read one of KJ's town games and compare it to this one and/or The Wall 2. The differences are very stark. I would vote KJ at this point, but ZDS is just as likely to be scum, and is much harder to get lynched(and will only become more so as the game progresses). I have to keep constant pressure on him to stop him from finding any kind of groove. And if he were town, he would have straightened out by now.
Can you off the top of your head remember a scum and town game from ZDS?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
The last game I recall where he was town was MTGS Mafia Redux 2(Invitational Version). He probably has some games since then, I just don't know them. I don't remember any of his scum games, but Seppel referenced one at some point in this thread.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Snipped to show only players with votes currently on them.
Of these, the ones with the most activity currently appear to be:
Quote from Votecount »
ZeDorkSlippeur (3): Cyan and 2 Lurkers
KamikazeArchon (4): ZeDorkSlippeur, Seppel, Sir Chris, Plowshares (all of whom save maybe Seppel have had at least some level of attack against them)
We have 4 days left before the deadline.
I think we need to table any discussion that does not progress one of these two wagons.
I like the long list of points Sir Chris and ZDS have put forth regarding Kami, and do not like Kami's reactions to them.
I think everyone not currently on one of these two wagons needs to weigh in on why and why they would rather see a No Lynch.
So his posting style is definitely different from what I'm used to. In previous games it was still concise but I don't remember him doing as many quotes, it felt more of just natural quick responses. This can be attributed to him trying to change up his play style (which he said he was doing) or he's scum.
You mean the flavour that's posted right there in the opening post?
You might as well ask: "can Kamikaze read?"
That's exactly what I'm asking. A lot of people don't read the opening post.
Most of my meta can be found here. I have yet to include my last two games: Redux 2 Invitational, and Gatecrash (ongoing but I'm dead in it). I was on a hiatus between Redux 2 and Gatecrash.
I meant Kami, not you. He's KA, you're Kaa (and I'd call you ZDS not Kaa anyway)
I think everyone not currently on one of these two wagons needs to weigh in on why and why they would rather see a No Lynch.
This is both a false dichotomy and a terrible idea. I agree these players should weigh in, but any player who does not want to lynch either Kami or myself should provide an alternative option (and put some effort into it, simply mentioning a name won't cut it).
Just because Kami and I are the current top two wagons does not mean it has to be that way until the Day is over.
Meanwhile, you ignore the businessman wagon that was (re)started by Kami, and describe the wagon on me in derogatory terms (weren't you the one complaining about Chris' use of loaded language?). I don't know what you are trying to pull (if anything), but I don't like it.
I am ALL for a lynch of imab (I believe my thoughts on him are well documented), but we are running incredibly short on time here Only Hunt has really bitten on it so far and Kami himself is V/LA until just before the deadline. I just REALLY don't want to see a No Lynch. And I was trying to provide as accurate of a description of the two wagons as possible, including indicating that I myself have been under a degree of suspicion toDay. They're both not without faults. There's a vocal Cyan and two lurkers on you and a collection of people who've been under a fair bit of questioning on Kami. If someone has a game-changing wagon they'd like to start (I do not), then NOW is the time to start it. Otherwise, I'd like everyone to weigh in on the top wagons. We don't have time to **** around here.
EDIT: sorry, the only reason i say this is that this geraffe in this picture is trying to eat a painting. i should say that this one particular geraffe is dumb.
EDIT: hey asshats quit downvoting me i am not the one who tried to eat the wall.
EDIT: hey before you hit that down arrow why don't you ask yourself why you can't take a joke you losers. jesus the pc crap has extended to long horses? because that is all those things are, and no one was bawling when that chimp got shot for eating that lady's face. so are you racist for long horses over gorillas? hippocrites.
EDIT: is it a bunch of peta lamebrains doing this? did my one little joke hit some kind of tree-hugger blog or some *****? i have never so much as even spit on a geraffe! wtf? i ate lion one time, it was in a burger; i had alligator, and something they told me was eagle but i'm positive it was just chicken. whatever anyone is saying about me and geraffes is not even true. but go on farteaters, downvote away. it shows how stupid you are.
EDIT: spelling.
EDIT: this is such *****. i have never received as much as one single downvote in my life and you peckers are jumping on this stupid geraffe-loving bandwagon. that is a dumb goddamn wall-licking geraffe and that is all. i'm not going to apologize to you idiots any more.
EDIT: you know, now my feelings are hurt. the amount of downvotes piled on me is just excessive. god for-*******-bid i had commented on a post about an antteater, i would be at -1000 by now. you people are horrible.
Seppel's post reminds me of XKCD where Cyan stuck his neck out for Iso.
Also, after posting that he wanted to "win something" for having the most posts, BE disappears for 3 days.
@BE: What are your current thoughts on Kami, ZDS, and imab. In detail please.
3 days! It was one and a half! I haven't even been prodded, and prods are at 48 hours!
Kami is null-scum for me. Multiple people say that his posting is different, and I trust them, I gues. I have no (completed) games with him. I still don't want to lynch him atm but we have thee days so Vote Kami
ZDS has been analysing all game. He's been scumhunting hard. I have no idea what the case on him is, but it ain't good, that's for sure.
Imab has been obvtown since day 1. His aggression is so genuine. Like, really genuine
28: Hunt, why did you vote Kami here? I think I know, but I want to make sure.
30: Still don't like BE's voting for a non-player.
35: Plowshares' attack on IMAB for a dissociative slip feels like it would come from town.
37: As I said before: Wheat progresses the wagon without contributing any to the conversation.
38: Cyan, what's IMAB's motivation as scum to put a second vote on Hans?
40: Why does IMAB's setup speccing make him town, again?
41: In addition to the mild smudge on BE I identified before ("spilling the beans"), I dislike the "when it's clearly not" language. IMAB, why vote Cyan for those elements when you didn't even respond to ZDS' serious vote on you (26) (or answer his question)?
@ZDS: Why didn't you call IMAB out (or at least follow-up on that question)?
45: There are a lot of things that bother me in this post from IMAB. Feels very condescending and caustic, perhaps a little overreactive. Watch to see if that's IMAB's SOP.
47: First line of Kami's post feels like it's trying to set Cyan up ("If he does something dumb, he's scum.") But good questions to BE and IMAB.
49: I'm always distrustful of "100% scum in [dichotomy]" statements. IMAB's asking bad questions.
51: Dislike how IMAB goes about this, but maybe it's just his playstyle.
65: IMAB continues to misrep Cyan, using hyperbole and humor to disguise it.
77: And now ZDS is reiterating that Cyan's "not recognizing the tell" is scummy...
79: Killjoy, why are you sad no one voted you for your pun?
81: IMAB slurs ZDS, who had reversed and is now townreading IMAB. Town points for IMAB unless they're scum together.
135: "The game has just begun. I'm not looking to immediately lynch people, I'm looking to figure out who I think is scum. Cyan and Plowshares were being pressured, but Chris was not." Just how much pressure was on Cyan and Plow at that point?
Oy. I've been up for 18 hours, and I'm falling asleep at the keyboard, so I'll pick up here again tomorrow. Please answer any questions directed at you.
3 days! It was one and a half! I haven't even been prodded, and prods are at 48 hours!
Lie. Lie. Lie. The self-consciously aggressive "!" usage is noted. My post, #511 was made on 5/18 at 2:23pm and your last post previous was #450 on 5/15 at 5:45pm. I don't know if you can count or not, but that's (less the negligible 3 hours) a 3 day difference from the 15th to the 18th.
Quote from BE2 »
Kami is null-scum for me. Multiple people say that his posting is different, and I trust them, I gues. I have no (completed) games with him. I still don't want to lynch him atm but we have thee days so Vote Kami
If you, as you express, you don't want to Lynch him, why vote him? Why would you prefer to Lynch someone you don't want than a No Lynch? I'm not being rhetorical, answer me please.
Quote from BE2 »
ZDS has been analysing all game. He's been scumhunting hard. I have no idea what the case on him is, but it ain't good, that's for sure.
Are you of the opinion Scum don't analyse or scumhunt? How do you know he has been "analyzing (the correct spelling by the way) all game" and "scumhunting hard" but are not familiar with Cyan's case against him. You would've, presumably, had to read the thread to gather such opinions, but you missed probably the most vocal opinion out there (ie Cyan's case on ZDS)? Doesn't jive.
Quote from BE2 »
Imab has been obvtown since day 1. His aggression is so genuine. Like, really genuine
Give me a specific example from this game of his "genuine" aggression. I want to know specifically WHY it qualifies as genuine to you and why genuine aggression is a Town tell for you.
This post from BE2 is EASILY the LAZIEST post I have ever read in a game of Mafia. @ZDS: Please tell me you see the glaring superficiality in this post.
If BE2 is agreeable to a Kami lynch, I want no part in it.
Unvote: Kami
Vote: imab
In case it's not obvious, I am saying I believe imab and BE2 are scumbuddies and imab is the easier lynch this close to the deadline. I would be perfectly happy to vote BE2 at this point as well.
I, too, like Cantrip's post. I think he brings up some solid points about imab and I'm hoping he'll vote with me.
Quote from ZDS »
So... did he, or did he not recognise the tell? Did he backtrack in the second post, or did he play dumb in the first one? Who knows, and who cares: neither option is pleasant.
Look at the language. Cyan is saying he didn't PRESUME to know. He SUSPECTED, but didn't KNOW. I would argue he neither backtracked nor played dumb.
<snip>
And lastly, he votes BE2 based on disagreeing with BE2 saying 'that tell is awful'. But we don't even know which tell BE2 is referring to.
<snip>
<snip>
Lastly he claims "we" can't identify the tell BE2 is referring to when myself, BE2 and cantripmancer all recognize it. Probably more people would have recognized it too but BE2 spilled the beans.
<snip>
And I suspected what BE was being accused of as well. But I didn't presume to know and vote him over it, after he had already received multiple other votes in rapid succession.
<snip>
So... did he, or did he not recognise the tell? Did he backtrack in the second post, or did he play dumb in the first one? Who knows, and who cares: neither option is pleasant.
This entire situation has been correct assessed by Kami(I believe, not 100% positiv) earlier and now by Plowshares as well. This is a bad argument, and flatly not one that you would make as town. How people can read this crap and not realize what is going on here? Arguments like this would be scummy from any player. They are particularly scummy from a player like ZDS, whom is typically a good town player.
28: Hunt, why did you vote Kami here? I think I know, but I want to make sure.
30: Still don't like BE's voting for a non-player.
35: Plowshares' attack on IMAB for a dissociative slip feels like it would come from town.
37: As I said before: Wheat progresses the wagon without contributing any to the conversation.
38: Cyan, what's IMAB's motivation as scum to put a second vote on Hans?
40: Why does IMAB's setup speccing make him town, again?
41: In addition to the mild smudge on BE I identified before ("spilling the beans"), I dislike the "when it's clearly not" language. IMAB, why vote Cyan for those elements when you didn't even respond to ZDS' serious vote on you (26) (or answer his question)?
@ZDS: Why didn't you call IMAB out (or at least follow-up on that question)?
45: There are a lot of things that bother me in this post from IMAB. Feels very condescending and caustic, perhaps a little overreactive. Watch to see if that's IMAB's SOP.
47: First line of Kami's post feels like it's trying to set Cyan up ("If he does something dumb, he's scum.") But good questions to BE and IMAB.
49: I'm always distrustful of "100% scum in [dichotomy]" statements. IMAB's asking bad questions.
51: Dislike how IMAB goes about this, but maybe it's just his playstyle.
65: IMAB continues to misrep Cyan, using hyperbole and humor to disguise it.
77: And now ZDS is reiterating that Cyan's "not recognizing the tell" is scummy...
79: Killjoy, why are you sad no one voted you for your pun?
81: IMAB slurs ZDS, who had reversed and is now townreading IMAB. Town points for IMAB unless they're scum together.
135: "The game has just begun. I'm not looking to immediately lynch people, I'm looking to figure out who I think is scum. Cyan and Plowshares were being pressured, but Chris was not." Just how much pressure was on Cyan and Plow at that point?
Oy. I've been up for 18 hours, and I'm falling asleep at the keyboard, so I'll pick up here again tomorrow. Please answer any questions directed at you.
Phone posting but not for much longer.
Hunt is super town for scumhunting based off his role pm. That is something impossible for scum to do.
Since plowshares cares so much about the disassociate r slip but never had the courage to ask before he took his ball and ran home
Punctuation on a phone is a pain in the arse. After using an apostrophe twice I just said town because its easier.
I ignored Zds and went after cyan even though they raised the same points because cyan didn't seem genuine and zds did.
We've already had a claim out of KA. He claimed Vanilla(literally zero surprise based on his RVS post). If push comes to shove and we have no other at all viable lynch options, we will lynch him, because it's a better option than NL. But we still have 3 days, and that is plenty of time for people to wake up and start voting ZDS.
Hawk: My top 3 scum are imab, zds and (significantly lower) Seppel; I've already made my imab case, ZDS for all the misreps in pushing my lynch, and Seppel for throwing around votes but not being a force in the game.
My top 3 town are Cyan, WG and KJ, all for genuine analysis and scumhunting.
I'm willing to cut it down to me and ZDS, so long as we (or you guys if I get lynched/NKed) examine imab tomorrow. I feel like his not being here is buying him time. No one besides ZDS has responded to my case, and ZDS only responded to attack me.
That was a terrible post from Plowshare. A nitpicky case on BE2 ("self-consciously aggressive "!" usage"? really?) and a non-sequitur vote on businessman all with a terrible timing, from the same guy who was warning about a possible No Lynch not long ago. What the heck.
He got upset enough to use "!'s" in response to being called out on how long ago he'd posted. Something so minor ruffled his feathers so much he got upset and lied about it? That's textbook self-consciousness. The threat of the No Lynch is precisely why I went back to my earlier, and much stronger, scum read. You, yourself pointed out that his wagon was recently reinvigorated.
Quote from ZDS »
I had a positive read on him, and I still do, but it's gotten much weaker now.
If BE2 is agreeable to a Kami lynch, I want no part in it.
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" is a terrible logic to use in a Mafia game, especially when there have been no flips yet. What if BE2's vote is a bus? What about BE2's vote is so terrible that you would want to completely distance yourself from the Kamikaze wagon?
BE2 has shown, in my mind anyways, a complete lack of depth in his reading of this game. It's as if he's skimming the posts and already has his mind made up about people. "So and so is good. So and so is bad" is about the extent of it. If BE2 and Kami are scum together, then that is the worst bus vote EVER. It reads as effectively "I don't wanna, but I guess I have to..." which is exactly how a buddy would think, but not at all how he would post.
Quote from ZDS »
If you reviewed Kami, and decided you did not want to remain on his wagon, or if you reviewed some other player, and decided they (not an unrelated third player) are a better lynch, it would have been fine. A little odd (since you had ample time to do it before, at least the Kami review), but fine nonetheless.
I still agree with the points you and Chris made against Kami, but I am much more confident in my read of BE2/imab as scum buddies.
Quote from ZDS »
But here... you are moving away from a wagon on Player A because of a vote by Player B, who you cased, and then voting Player C, all in one single line of thought. This is insanity.
Welcome to my brain! To be fair, I'd be happy to Vote Player B if the situation arises.
Quote from ZDS »
Since you sort of indirectly asked me my opinion, I'll tell you.
I have a solid town read on businessman, for the same reasons stated by Burning_Earth.
I have some minor doubts about Burning_Earth, but I reviewed him and overall he looks fine.
I cannot imagine a town explanation for Kamikaze's play, as hard as I try to. The only thing he has going for him is the "motherland" joke, which is meaningless if he read the sample vanilla PM (and why wouldn't he have?). If he is town, I will remember this as the biggest mystery in my entire Mafia career.
....
And I maintain my dislike of the #38-#41-#43 post sequence.
Can you provide me with a specific example of this "genuine aggression" you and BE2 seem to see from him? Also, can you explain to me why said "genuine aggression" is a Town tell?
I don't know if Hawk sees what I see, but I think it's HIGHLY unlikely that Kami is scum. I may have a chance to catch up some more soon. I know we're short on time, so I'll do what I can.
The counterwagon to ZDS is stupid. You mean to tell me a bunch of people saw a "VANILLA TOWNIE" claim and thought to themselve "yep, let's run up someone else instead".
@Plowshares: Where you see a "lack of depth" from BE2, I see someone not needing many elements to make his reads. The opposite of a careful analyst, basically. He also relies on intuition and the indicible (eg: "X is genuine"). All this is perfectly fine, especially on Day 1 (with more flips and claims, more pondered reads become expected).
Maybe he does have "his mind made up about people", or maybe he's comfortable taking snap decisions. I'll go with the least paranoid perspective, personally.
There is "not much" in his posts. All his interactions with other players are "light". In a word, his play is extremely superficial.
In his responses to me he wants to make it look like his play is not superficial, but he only makes vague evasive claims and will not support them when repeatedly asked to.
You established this as your primary case against Kami.
I'm really bad at convincing people of my thoughts. I basically refuted him earlier on why he was posting garbo and isn't of town mind set, maybe look at that if you want some evidence.
The counterwagon to ZDS is stupid. You mean to tell me a bunch of people saw a "VANILLA TOWNIE" claim and thought to themselve "yep, let's run up someone else instead".
unvote
VOTE KAMIKAZE
This is not at all a counterwagon; it existed before the KA wagon ever did. It's just been like pulling teeth to get people to go along with it. Which is what I figured would happen, and is why I have tried to stay focused on it, except for briefly getting distracted by a particularly scummy post by KA.
160: Chris uses a LOT of words, but it's not as scummy as I remember it being the first time around. Chris, if I had time to look at your other games, would I find that your wordiness is standard, or is it one of the things that's different from you this game?
165: ZDS, I think I already identified what bothers me about your attack on Hawk, but that cease fire attempt with Cyan really feels like you were trying hard to lynch a strong town player, couldn't find the support, and needed an exit strategy from the wagon. You're giving Cyan a pass because you think his vote on you is emotional? And that smear on Hawk: I thought that was what you meant, and it's a pretty cheap shot. And you shamed me for being condescending? Plus, you use Chris's meta-arguments in favor of Cyan as a reason to unvote Cyan, but then belittle Chris' arguments and vote him (over Hawk primarily because Chris has a bigger wagon and talks about himself). Bad post.
169: Wheat is asking some good (if a little light) questions. Dat Freudian slip, though.
180: I'm getting a lot of genuine vibes from Plowshares here, and conviction that I think would be hard to fake. He goes in the town pile.
182: ZDS, you say "It would be incredibly [easy] for scum-Chris to not see meta-scumtells coming from town-Cyan. As easy as reading his role PM and not bothering with thinking about Cyan at all." But in the post that Kami quoted of yours, you're saying that Chris is "genuinely convincing" and that he "genuinely does not recognize the scum-Cyan he is used to". So your vote of Chris still doesn't make sense to me.
And then the rest of that post is odd. Your breakdown to Chris feels good; I found myself nodding my head in several places. But then you ask Chris a bunch of questions that seem intended to give you a better read on him (even asking others to weigh in)...and then you townclear him for being "wrong, but sincere" before he even responds to you. This is the second time you've left a wagon for really wimpy reasons. And then you vote Hawk (and I went into detail about my concerns there in 186). I'm not sure that wagon-leaping is scummy, but something feels off.
205: ZDS, your logic on why you're voting Hawk is sounder than I expected.
224: This is a good argument from Chris for ZDS possibly being town, but ZDS is definitely sneaky enough to do that as scum for the town points. Still, something to consider.
263: Plow, I feel like your point against IMAB could as easily be explained by IMAB being over-reactive and emotional (spoiler: from what I've seen in this game, he is).
289: Seppel, why Plowshares? EWP: You sorta responded to this, but then you didn't. Why Plowshares?
311: I have a pretty solid townread on you, Huntz, but "I could get on board with a Scum!BE lynch"? Really? I could get on board with a Scum!Cyan lynch, or a Scum!Chris lynch, but count me out of the lynch if either of them are Town. That seems like a really odd way to phrase it.
329: Cyan, re: "If you think it actually means something, you are wrong. If anyone thinks that, they are also wrong. Voting someone outside of the game does not mean anything and will not ever mean anything", I'm pretty sure I've seen it on multiple occasions be indicative of scum (Apocalypse specifically comes to mind, but I don't have time to check). I think it's more common among new scum who don't want to vote a townie, but don't want to vote a buddy, and don't know where to put their vote, but don't want to abstain from voting, and don't want their head to asplodey because of indecision, so they vote the mod. Or a player who was scum in their last game but isn't in this one. Or Barack Obama. It's not a STRONG tell, but I believe it is one.
Quote from Cyan »
Placing the second vote on someone during RVS is scummy. For very apparent reasons. It should not be done.
Wait, what? I find the third vote on a player in RVS suspicious...in a mini. In a 16 player game, it's nearly meaningless. I obviously didn't understand what you were getting at way back when. I don't see IMAB's 2nd vote on a player in RVS as scummy.
This statement is bad. I wish he was still here so I could ask him to elaborate, but not only does he not identify what he likes, he hedges the entire thing.
Argh. So I've read the remaining 200-ish posts because I've been keeping up with my reading even if I haven't had time to respond and comment, but I'd really like to finish re-reading before we go to Night. That said, I don't know when my next opportunity will be, so I'm going to go ahead and
Vote ZDS
Multiple posts of his have given me a lot of pause. I could go with an IMAB lynch, too, esp with #539.
329: Cyan, re: "If you think it actually means something, you are wrong. If anyone thinks that, they are also wrong. Voting someone outside of the game does not mean anything and will not ever mean anything", I'm pretty sure I've seen it on multiple occasions be indicative of scum (Apocalypse specifically comes to mind, but I don't have time to check). I think it's more common among new scum who don't want to vote a townie, but don't want to vote a buddy, and don't know where to put their vote, but don't want to abstain from voting, and don't want their head to asplodey because of indecision, so they vote the mod. Or a player who was scum in their last game but isn't in this one. Or Barack Obama. It's not a STRONG tell, but I believe it is one.
Quote from Cyan »
Placing the second vote on someone during RVS is scummy. For very apparent reasons. It should not be done.
Wait, what? I find the third vote on a player in RVS suspicious...in a mini. In a 16 player game, it's nearly meaningless. I obviously didn't understand what you were getting at way back when. I don't see IMAB's 2nd vote on a player in RVS as scummy.
Cantrip...
now that you've come to realize that Cyan's arguments were bad at the start of the game, please observe this comment by KamikazeArchon...
Cyan is one of the best players in MTGS. If he does something that looks dumb for a townie, it's almost certainly a scum slip-up. That said, he's not being dumb here. imab's response is basically just "nuh-uh", and I'm pretty sure there's a misrep in there - Cyan didn't say imab's vote was bad because it was serious, he said imab's vote was bad because it was piling on after another RVS vote.
Kamikaze says that cyan wouldn't do something dumb for a townie. Proceeds to defend cyan doing something dumb for a townie.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
"If he somehow miraculously flips town..."
That sentence. Never seen town do that.
His next post is a wisp of an attack on Cyan.
That took you two days to conjure up?
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Also, upon re-reading your post, I realize that you are saying that you've never seen ANY town make that statement(not just referring to me, which is what I thought it originally said), to which I respond..get out of here. You are just making ***** up as you go apparently.
...**** I didn't get as far as his RVS post before deciding that the best way to figure out if he's scum is probably to hear his claim. He's in claim range, right? I don't know the votecount. I do know I want his claim rather badly.
Jumps on imab but so did everyone else so I can't really call it particularly opportunistic.
not to be found for two pages straight
page 4: I'm starting to feel it
it's happening, it's happening...
yep he's asking meaningless questions. That's his scum meta, right?
If not, there's still the I WAS JUST PRETENDING.
oh ***** he already claimed. Aaaaaaand he claimed the only claim that wouldn't make me insta-gib him. His RVS post made me believe he was either VT or scum given what info is available (he said glory to Russia, VTs are Russian, scum are presumably Russian from VT flavor, PRs sound like they aren't Russian)
that makes me unhappy
fuuuuuuuuck I can't help but feel that Kami's RVS was coming from a town perspective because it would be risky for him to claim Russian unless he specifically saw the VT flavor
so do I believe he saw the VT flavor?
does the JUST PRETENDING cancel out the chance?
most importantly does anyone remember his meta and if not, @KA: Last town, last scum game pls.
I don't think JUST PRETENDING is necessarily enough to go on alone so if meta backs it up I'll go with it but if it's only JUST PRETENDING it just doesn't feel right.
Please see also: The Wall 2. You know, the other game where Killjoy was scum. Or just go read one of KJ's town games and compare it to this one and/or The Wall 2. The differences are very stark. I would vote KJ at this point, but ZDS is just as likely to be scum, and is much harder to get lynched(and will only become more so as the game progresses). I have to keep constant pressure on him to stop him from finding any kind of groove. And if he were town, he would have straightened out by now.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
That post by Cyan I felt was worth a response.
Snipped to show only players with votes currently on them.
Of these, the ones with the most activity currently appear to be:
We have 4 days left before the deadline.
I think we need to table any discussion that does not progress one of these two wagons.
I like the long list of points Sir Chris and ZDS have put forth regarding Kami, and do not like Kami's reactions to them.
I think everyone not currently on one of these two wagons needs to weigh in on why and why they would rather see a No Lynch.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
About KA:
So his posting style is definitely different from what I'm used to. In previous games it was still concise but I don't remember him doing as many quotes, it felt more of just natural quick responses. This can be attributed to him trying to change up his play style (which he said he was doing) or he's scum.
@KA
pick your top 3 scum and top 3 town.
Outdated Mafia Stats
That's exactly what I'm asking. A lot of people don't read the opening post.
I meant Kami, not you. He's KA, you're Kaa (and I'd call you ZDS not Kaa anyway)
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
1. I don't
2. Oops
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
@BE: What are your current thoughts on Kami, ZDS, and imab. In detail please.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
EDIT: hey asshats quit downvoting me i am not the one who tried to eat the wall.
EDIT: hey before you hit that down arrow why don't you ask yourself why you can't take a joke you losers. jesus the pc crap has extended to long horses? because that is all those things are, and no one was bawling when that chimp got shot for eating that lady's face. so are you racist for long horses over gorillas? hippocrites.
EDIT: is it a bunch of peta lamebrains doing this? did my one little joke hit some kind of tree-hugger blog or some *****? i have never so much as even spit on a geraffe! wtf? i ate lion one time, it was in a burger; i had alligator, and something they told me was eagle but i'm positive it was just chicken. whatever anyone is saying about me and geraffes is not even true. but go on farteaters, downvote away. it shows how stupid you are.
EDIT: spelling.
EDIT: this is such *****. i have never received as much as one single downvote in my life and you peckers are jumping on this stupid geraffe-loving bandwagon. that is a dumb goddamn wall-licking geraffe and that is all. i'm not going to apologize to you idiots any more.
EDIT: you know, now my feelings are hurt. the amount of downvotes piled on me is just excessive. god for-*******-bid i had commented on a post about an antteater, i would be at -1000 by now. you people are horrible.
Seppel's post reminds me of XKCD where Cyan stuck his neck out for Iso.
3 days! It was one and a half! I haven't even been prodded, and prods are at 48 hours!
Kami is null-scum for me. Multiple people say that his posting is different, and I trust them, I gues. I have no (completed) games with him. I still don't want to lynch him atm but we have thee days so Vote Kami
ZDS has been analysing all game. He's been scumhunting hard. I have no idea what the case on him is, but it ain't good, that's for sure.
Imab has been obvtown since day 1. His aggression is so genuine. Like, really genuine
28: Hunt, why did you vote Kami here? I think I know, but I want to make sure.
30: Still don't like BE's voting for a non-player.
35: Plowshares' attack on IMAB for a dissociative slip feels like it would come from town.
37: As I said before: Wheat progresses the wagon without contributing any to the conversation.
38: Cyan, what's IMAB's motivation as scum to put a second vote on Hans?
40: Why does IMAB's setup speccing make him town, again?
41: In addition to the mild smudge on BE I identified before ("spilling the beans"), I dislike the "when it's clearly not" language. IMAB, why vote Cyan for those elements when you didn't even respond to ZDS' serious vote on you (26) (or answer his question)?
@ZDS: Why didn't you call IMAB out (or at least follow-up on that question)?
45: There are a lot of things that bother me in this post from IMAB. Feels very condescending and caustic, perhaps a little overreactive. Watch to see if that's IMAB's SOP.
47: First line of Kami's post feels like it's trying to set Cyan up ("If he does something dumb, he's scum.") But good questions to BE and IMAB.
49: I'm always distrustful of "100% scum in [dichotomy]" statements. IMAB's asking bad questions.
51: Dislike how IMAB goes about this, but maybe it's just his playstyle.
65: IMAB continues to misrep Cyan, using hyperbole and humor to disguise it.
77: And now ZDS is reiterating that Cyan's "not recognizing the tell" is scummy...
79: Killjoy, why are you sad no one voted you for your pun?
81: IMAB slurs ZDS, who had reversed and is now townreading IMAB. Town points for IMAB unless they're scum together.
89: IMAB, why does 28 make Hunt super town?
96: Already vocalized why I think this post makes Wheat scum.
104: Chris, what are your reasons for voting BE other than emotional/intellectual OMGUS?
129: This post gives me good ZDS-town vibes: the way he emphasized his "gotcha" question to Cyan.
134: I agree that Killjoy is town.
135: "The game has just begun. I'm not looking to immediately lynch people, I'm looking to figure out who I think is scum. Cyan and Plowshares were being pressured, but Chris was not." Just how much pressure was on Cyan and Plow at that point?
Oy. I've been up for 18 hours, and I'm falling asleep at the keyboard, so I'll pick up here again tomorrow. Please answer any questions directed at you.
If you, as you express, you don't want to Lynch him, why vote him? Why would you prefer to Lynch someone you don't want than a No Lynch? I'm not being rhetorical, answer me please.
Are you of the opinion Scum don't analyse or scumhunt? How do you know he has been "analyzing (the correct spelling by the way) all game" and "scumhunting hard" but are not familiar with Cyan's case against him. You would've, presumably, had to read the thread to gather such opinions, but you missed probably the most vocal opinion out there (ie Cyan's case on ZDS)? Doesn't jive.
Give me a specific example from this game of his "genuine" aggression. I want to know specifically WHY it qualifies as genuine to you and why genuine aggression is a Town tell for you.
This post from BE2 is EASILY the LAZIEST post I have ever read in a game of Mafia.
@ZDS: Please tell me you see the glaring superficiality in this post.
If BE2 is agreeable to a Kami lynch, I want no part in it.
Unvote: Kami
Vote: imab
In case it's not obvious, I am saying I believe imab and BE2 are scumbuddies and imab is the easier lynch this close to the deadline. I would be perfectly happy to vote BE2 at this point as well.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Look at the language. Cyan is saying he didn't PRESUME to know. He SUSPECTED, but didn't KNOW. I would argue he neither backtracked nor played dumb.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Okay.
All that means to me is that KA might not be town.
This entire situation has been correct assessed by Kami(I believe, not 100% positiv) earlier and now by Plowshares as well. This is a bad argument, and flatly not one that you would make as town. How people can read this crap and not realize what is going on here? Arguments like this would be scummy from any player. They are particularly scummy from a player like ZDS, whom is typically a good town player.
It's awkward because I don't like zds, KA or imab.
Outdated Mafia Stats
Phone posting but not for much longer.
Hunt is super town for scumhunting based off his role pm. That is something impossible for scum to do.
Since plowshares cares so much about the disassociate r slip but never had the courage to ask before he took his ball and ran home
Punctuation on a phone is a pain in the arse. After using an apostrophe twice I just said town because its easier.
I ignored Zds and went after cyan even though they raised the same points because cyan didn't seem genuine and zds did.
Everyone vote put of those 2 so we can get a claim.
Outdated Mafia Stats
My top 3 town are Cyan, WG and KJ, all for genuine analysis and scumhunting.
I'm willing to cut it down to me and ZDS, so long as we (or you guys if I get lynched/NKed) examine imab tomorrow. I feel like his not being here is buying him time. No one besides ZDS has responded to my case, and ZDS only responded to attack me.
unvote, vote ZDS
Outdated Mafia Stats
Outdated Mafia Stats
Outdated Mafia Stats
You wound me, sir.
You don't see the complete lack of anything resembling depth to any of his "reads?"
BE2 has shown, in my mind anyways, a complete lack of depth in his reading of this game. It's as if he's skimming the posts and already has his mind made up about people. "So and so is good. So and so is bad" is about the extent of it. If BE2 and Kami are scum together, then that is the worst bus vote EVER. It reads as effectively "I don't wanna, but I guess I have to..." which is exactly how a buddy would think, but not at all how he would post.
I still agree with the points you and Chris made against Kami, but I am much more confident in my read of BE2/imab as scum buddies.
Welcome to my brain! To be fair, I'd be happy to Vote Player B if the situation arises.
Can you provide me with a specific example of this "genuine aggression" you and BE2 seem to see from him? Also, can you explain to me why said "genuine aggression" is a Town tell?
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Either way, we're all gonna burn
i refuse to vote zds unless you give me a clearly reasoned case as to why zds is scum
Deadline: I don't want to lynch ZDS. I want to lynch Chris or Cyan, and I'd be okay with Plowshares.
unvote
VOTE KAMIKAZE
Explain to me how that is different than this:
You established this as your primary case against Kami.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Outdated Mafia Stats
Outdated Mafia Stats
This is not at all a counterwagon; it existed before the KA wagon ever did. It's just been like pulling teeth to get people to go along with it. Which is what I figured would happen, and is why I have tried to stay focused on it, except for briefly getting distracted by a particularly scummy post by KA.
165: ZDS, I think I already identified what bothers me about your attack on Hawk, but that cease fire attempt with Cyan really feels like you were trying hard to lynch a strong town player, couldn't find the support, and needed an exit strategy from the wagon. You're giving Cyan a pass because you think his vote on you is emotional? And that smear on Hawk: I thought that was what you meant, and it's a pretty cheap shot. And you shamed me for being condescending? Plus, you use Chris's meta-arguments in favor of Cyan as a reason to unvote Cyan, but then belittle Chris' arguments and vote him (over Hawk primarily because Chris has a bigger wagon and talks about himself). Bad post.
169: Wheat is asking some good (if a little light) questions. Dat Freudian slip, though.
180: I'm getting a lot of genuine vibes from Plowshares here, and conviction that I think would be hard to fake. He goes in the town pile.
182: ZDS, you say "It would be incredibly [easy] for scum-Chris to not see meta-scumtells coming from town-Cyan. As easy as reading his role PM and not bothering with thinking about Cyan at all." But in the post that Kami quoted of yours, you're saying that Chris is "genuinely convincing" and that he "genuinely does not recognize the scum-Cyan he is used to". So your vote of Chris still doesn't make sense to me.
And then the rest of that post is odd. Your breakdown to Chris feels good; I found myself nodding my head in several places. But then you ask Chris a bunch of questions that seem intended to give you a better read on him (even asking others to weigh in)...and then you townclear him for being "wrong, but sincere" before he even responds to you. This is the second time you've left a wagon for really wimpy reasons. And then you vote Hawk (and I went into detail about my concerns there in 186). I'm not sure that wagon-leaping is scummy, but something feels off.
205: ZDS, your logic on why you're voting Hawk is sounder than I expected.
209: Thank you, Seppel!
224: This is a good argument from Chris for ZDS possibly being town, but ZDS is definitely sneaky enough to do that as scum for the town points. Still, something to consider.
233: This does not sound like Cyan.
263: Plow, I feel like your point against IMAB could as easily be explained by IMAB being over-reactive and emotional (spoiler: from what I've seen in this game, he is).
276: Chris, I lol'd.
289: Seppel, why Plowshares? EWP: You sorta responded to this, but then you didn't. Why Plowshares?
311: I have a pretty solid townread on you, Huntz, but "I could get on board with a Scum!BE lynch"? Really? I could get on board with a Scum!Cyan lynch, or a Scum!Chris lynch, but count me out of the lynch if either of them are Town. That seems like a really odd way to phrase it.
329: Cyan, re: "If you think it actually means something, you are wrong. If anyone thinks that, they are also wrong. Voting someone outside of the game does not mean anything and will not ever mean anything", I'm pretty sure I've seen it on multiple occasions be indicative of scum (Apocalypse specifically comes to mind, but I don't have time to check). I think it's more common among new scum who don't want to vote a townie, but don't want to vote a buddy, and don't know where to put their vote, but don't want to abstain from voting, and don't want their head to asplodey because of indecision, so they vote the mod. Or a player who was scum in their last game but isn't in this one. Or Barack Obama. It's not a STRONG tell, but I believe it is one. Wait, what? I find the third vote on a player in RVS suspicious...in a mini. In a 16 player game, it's nearly meaningless. I obviously didn't understand what you were getting at way back when. I don't see IMAB's 2nd vote on a player in RVS as scummy.
This statement is bad. I wish he was still here so I could ask him to elaborate, but not only does he not identify what he likes, he hedges the entire thing.
Argh. So I've read the remaining 200-ish posts because I've been keeping up with my reading even if I haven't had time to respond and comment, but I'd really like to finish re-reading before we go to Night. That said, I don't know when my next opportunity will be, so I'm going to go ahead and
Vote ZDS
Multiple posts of his have given me a lot of pause. I could go with an IMAB lynch, too, esp with #539.
Cantrip...
now that you've come to realize that Cyan's arguments were bad at the start of the game, please observe this comment by KamikazeArchon...
Kamikaze says that cyan wouldn't do something dumb for a townie. Proceeds to defend cyan doing something dumb for a townie.