More concerned? I am at the point where I think you're scum. I just don't think it's going to be possible to lynch you Day 1, and I'm battling feeling checked out for the Day.
When you gave reads with basically no explanation in the recent past, I thought nothing of it because I figured you didn't want to derail the ongoing wagons (which is perfectly fine). Was I wrong, or does Azrael somehow deserve special treatment?
(Also, saying you don't want to attack someone because you fear retaliation is an excellent way to get retaliated at, ironically)
I feel Azrael deserves special treatment, because he's in a leadership role in the game.
So which of this posts made you suddenly switch your read to me being scummy?
Because the first four points in your PBPA were simple summary, with no actual reads attached.
There were only three other points in your PBPA.
The first amounts to your disagreeing with my case on AI. That's a scum tell because...?
Your 2nd post amounts to pointing out that I didn't do a full PBPA on Atog, but simply pointed out the posts I felt were relevant to his defense. ZDS had JUST done a full PBPA, and I was replying to it. So...that's a scum tell because...?
Your third post concludes that my read on Atog as probable town for not having any scum tells is "fair in theory, but not great". That's a scum tell because...?
I missed this post before. The first four posts aren't issues by themselves. On the latter three, the disconnect between the AI and Atog thing is that you take the time to include the posts that don't necessarily align with your viewpoint. Beyond that, I don't have any specific scum tells here. It's mostly feels.
Then if you're unsure about Cythare, why did you go ahead and say you weren't OK with a Cythare lynch? Clearly if Cythare were to be lynched there would first be a Cythare wagon. I still don't see why you would include the disclaimer that you weren't OK with a Cythare lynch.
Because words have a meaning, and saying I'm OK with a Cythare lynch would strongly imply I read him as scum.
It's incomplete because that's where my previous notes had ended, and I didn't have time to finish it. I do plan on finishing it, though.
KK: I think you're attributing something to me that I didn't say. I had you as "lean scum" and I asked you to explain yourself. Now the question is: why are you so aggro in defending yourself?
"You go from saying 'I didn't believe it' to 'I don't recall reading it' in a single post. Explain." Is an aggressive sentence.
Scum contradictions don't need to have an agenda. Scum are lying by definition; lies spread and create more lies, and sometimes they get caught in their own lies.
So basically, you have no reason to believe that particular "contradiction" was a scum contradiction.
You joined the game with the intent to discredit your two biggest lynch supporters and reached too far to do it. You've got nothing actually scummy on either of us, so, in desperation, you manufactured stances that a townie would never take.
And now that I've called you on this BS you're backpedaling rapidly.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
Az: No, it's not a good reason, unless you have some kind of confirmation that the player is town. Which you can't at this point in the game, unless you're scum and know he's town. Or you're some kind of cleared mason, which I hadn't actually considered before. OK, yes, that is the one case where it would be a good town reason to defend him in that circumstance. I doubt that's the case here.
KK: I think you're attributing something to me that I didn't say. I had you as "lean scum" and I asked you to explain yourself. Now the question is: why are you so aggro in defending yourself?
Scum contradictions don't need to have an agenda. Scum are lying by definition; lies spread and create more lies, and sometimes they get caught in their own lies.
I feel Azrael deserves special treatment, because he's in a leadership role in the game.
I missed this post before. The first four posts aren't issues by themselves. On the latter three, the disconnect between the AI and Atog thing is that you take the time to include the posts that don't necessarily align with your viewpoint. Beyond that, I don't have any specific scum tells here. It's mostly feels.
You changed your read on me from town to scum because of...unspecified "feels"?
I don't think I'm misinterpreting you here.
You've tried not to admit that your reason for changing your read was my case on you, my case which was oh-so-coincidentally was posted about two minutes before you just so happened to change your read. When pressed, what you said was your reason was a couple differences of opinion on reads and a procedural mattter with what you call a PBPA that is fully explained by my post being a reply TO an actual full PBPA by ZDS. And when pressed further on none of those issues being actual tells, you now fall back to a calling it a gut read.
This is what being caught in a lie about a made-up scum read looks like.
Az: No, it's not a good reason, unless you have some kind of confirmation that the player is town. Which you can't at this point in the game, unless you're scum and know he's town.
I'm pretty sure you're scum, but I don't have a cop confirmation yet. Should I wait for someone to confirm it for me before I vote you?
I feel Azrael deserves special treatment, because he's in a leadership role in the game.
I missed this post before. The first four posts aren't issues by themselves. On the latter three, the disconnect between the AI and Atog thing is that you take the time to include the posts that don't necessarily align with your viewpoint. Beyond that, I don't have any specific scum tells here. It's mostly feels.
You changed your read on me from town to scum because of...unspecified "feels"?
I don't think I'm misinterpreting you here.
You've tried not to admit that your reason for changing your read was my case on you, my case which was oh-so-coincidentally was posted about two minutes before you just so happened to change your read. When pressed, what you said was your reason was a couple differences of opinion on reads and a procedural mattter with what you call a PBPA that is fully explained by my post being a reply TO an actual full PBPA by ZDS. And when pressed further on none of those issues being actual tells, you now fall back to a calling it a gut read.
This is what being caught in a lie about a made-up scum read looks like.
You're not misinterpeting me on the feels, but I can guarantee that you're wrong about the rest of it. I'm falling back to the gut read because there isn't a specific tell in there that I can point to. It just looks like a disconnection between the two, but I don't have a list of tells to pull from and be like "that one!". Part of my issue with you saying it's because it's a reply is because you stated you reviewed it all and saw "no reason he should be lynched". Then, when ZDS responds with a list of reasons, you provide a few things that equate to a town read. It just isn't adding up, but I can't point to something conclusive.
Other business:
- Deadline is this Friday.
- You have to unvote for a new vote to be counted.
- I'm considering implementing a plurality lynch (with minimum votes required) for Today. I'll report back on that. For now you are still trying to reach 11 votes.
- Sepiriel replacement forthcoming. As usual I try to get a PM confirmation of intent to replace. When I do, I'll make the replacement happen. Usually my goal is to keep a player who is contributing in the game rather than replace them if possible.
You're not misinterpeting me on the feels, but I can guarantee that you're wrong about the rest of it. I'm falling back to the gut read because there isn't a specific tell in there that I can point to. It just looks like a disconnection between the two, but I don't have a list of tells to pull from and be like "that one!". Part of my issue with you saying it's because it's a reply is because you stated you reviewed it all and saw "no reason he should be lynched". Then, when ZDS responds with a list of reasons, you provide a few things that equate to a town read. It just isn't adding up, but I can't point to something conclusive.
Did you fail to read the ad nauseam discussion between ZDS/Axelrod and myself regarding a strong pro-town explanation for a supposed scum tell nullifying the tell as useful evidence?
Hey guys, at the insistence of the Mod i considered how things are going and slept on whether or not i should replace, like Rhand said hopefully as the days go by it will be easier to be more productive, and Meg said the constant replacing would be bad both for the current players as well as for the player replacing in, so yeah we are all stuck with each other for a bit longer it seems
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Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
ZDS: 1) I've been playing Mafia for many years. 2) In principle no. In this context yes. This isn't defending a town read in a vacuum, this is defending a very scummy town read based on pretty much the definition of WIFOM.
Az: See above.
KK: I didn't even register you as a major lynch supporter. The only person I saw being aggro on AI was Azrael.
My calculus says Az is the better lynch but I don't think I'm going to convince people by Friday. unvote vote Atog
@KamikazeArchon: What exactly did you like about killjoy's catchup analysis? He's done one catchup post with virtually zero impact on the game (also scumreading people that we cleared very easily).
I'm fine with moving forward on Cythare. My push on KoolKoal doesn't seem to be going anywhere and I don't want to be part of the Arch wagon while KoolKoal's on it. One of Cythare's responses I disliked (I'm not in the best position to push this). We really need to get a lynch moving.
I'm fine with moving forward on Cythare. My push on KoolKoal doesn't seem to be going anywhere and I don't want to be part of the Arch wagon while KoolKoal's on it.
Pull your head out of your tunnel and actually read the interactions.
Cythare may be an acceptable "oh crap deadline!" lynch, but I don't understand anyone who isn't voting ai/kami after all this.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
Since we've only got 4 days left, and I don't want this to be an issue closer to the deadline, I'm just going to let you all know I'm Orzhov.
I love this game.
I know. :/
I mean, if me being the deadline lynch is still helpful to move it along, that's fine, but it may just result in Day 1, part 2 for the rest of you guys.
KK: What meat? I saw a contradiction and poked at it. You gave an explanation that it was a misunderstanding. There's nothing more to say about that. The rest of the post is you attributing motives to me that I don't have. The only possible discussion of that is an "is not"-"is too" back-and-forth.
Proph: It seemed well-reasoned. It's a promising start. If it stops there it'll be a problem.
ZDS: There are degrees of scumminess and there are degrees of defense, and there are different reasons for defense. The problem with what Az did was a combination of how scummy Atog was, how Az defended him, and what the reasoning was (in particular, that it was direct WIFOM). You are talking as if I said something like "never defend scummy players", which is not the case.
OK, the thing I see from Cythare is a lot of soft stances. And he's mostly commenting on others' comments, not doing proactive attacks. It's enough to put him in leaning scum, but it's less convincing than Atog and Az.
No, you also claimed I was being overly aggressive, and I showed where you were the first to be too aggressive (not to mention disingenuous, but that's definitely subjective) now you're trying to act like the whole exchange was pointless because you don't like how it made you look.
I'm still waiting for you to explain an actual, logical reason why that post you linked could be seen as scum besides "contradictions are always scummy and I don't have to explain why this one was even though no one else thinks it is because reasons."
Rather than uselessly review someone who already has a growing wagon on them, why not actually post the reasons behind your reads that are being questioned. For example: how was Az's defense of togs WIFOM exactly? You're sidestepping every issue thrown at you with vague words and providing proof for none of it. Stop trying to confuse the issues.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
Claiming the other person was aggressive first is not a demonstration that you were not aggressive.
Contradictions are a scum tell. I neither have nor need any other reason to call out contradictions.
Az's defense of Atog includes the line "I mean, he's clearly lying. He admitted he was lying. The question is whether he's lying about his lying, or he's lying about his lying about his lying." That's, like, the definition of WIFOM.
Contradictions are a scum tell. I neither have nor need any other reason to call out contradictions.
Cool, so you're confirming your scum-centric stance that you don't have to make real cases, just call things scummy and hope no one is paying attention.
Az's defense of Atog includes the line "I mean, he's clearly lying. He admitted he was lying. The question is whether he's lying about his lying, or he's lying about his lying about his lying." That's, like, the definition of WIFOM.
Except that isn't his defense of Togs, its a single line talking about his defense and he gave reasons for holding his opinion on the matter before and beyond this sentence. See, Az actually put time and effort into his reads. Unlike someone who has manufactured every read to fit his needs, and says as little as possible about them so as hide how flimsy his reads really are. (hint: this someone is kami)
You'd have us believe that Az is in your firmly scum pile entirely for this one line in all his posts. No one will buy that, so you can go ahead and get lynched now.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
WIFOM is used as a scum tell when a scummer says "Would I really have done that, if I were scum?"
It isn't used for when someone points out that a behavior is susceptible to more than one possible interpretation, and argues that the "He's scum!" explanation is not significantly more likely than the other.
Daring the town to swallow wine != to pointing out that the town is risking drinking poisoned wine, and that it's probably a bad idea to accept the risk of swallowing iocaine powder when you can wait a little longer and safely run them through with your sword.
Contradictions are a scum tell. I neither have nor need any other reason to call out contradictions.
Cool, so you're confirming your scum-centric stance that you don't have to make real cases, just call things scummy and hope no one is paying attention.
Az's defense of Atog includes the line "I mean, he's clearly lying. He admitted he was lying. The question is whether he's lying about his lying, or he's lying about his lying about his lying." That's, like, the definition of WIFOM.
Except that isn't his defense of Togs, its a single line talking about his defense and he gave reasons for holding his opinion on the matter before and beyond this sentence. See, Az actually put time and effort into his reads. Unlike someone who has manufactured every read to fit his needs, and says as little as possible about them so as hide how flimsy his reads really are. (hint: this someone is kami)
You'd have us believe that Az is in your firmly scum pile entirely for this one line in all his posts. No one will buy that, so you can go ahead and get lynched now.
You're stretching really hard to misinterpret everything I say.
I didn't say that I don't need to make cases. I'm not even voting you. You're not my prime scum suspect. I didn't brand you with the Great Glyph of Scumminess, eternal and imperishable, because of that contradiction. I pointed out that it exists, that it's a scum tell, and asked you to explain. That's it. Scum tell does not equal 100% confirmed scum. And the only reason we're even still talking about this is that you won't let it go.
If you're trying to say that everything has to be based on some big case, that's ridiculous. Pointing out little things is how the game works. Outside of huge scumslips, big cases only come from adding up a bunch of little things. Holding off on pointing out a little thing, just because I can't instantly build it into a comprehensive case, would be absurd.
I never said that everything rests on that single line; that's a representative line that I chose to quote because it highlights the WIFOM. It is entirely unreasonable to interpret what I said as "this one line is why he's scum!".
Az: If you honestly think "lying about his lying about his lying" isn't WIFOM, then that's you having a different definition of WIFOM than I do.
If you're just going to continue arguing minutia rather than give any of your reads legs to stand on, then I don't see any point in continuing this. You'll get lynched even without my help.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
Hey guys, now I'm actually back. Now that I've actually read everything, I'm fine with a lynch in {AsianInvasion, Atogaholic, ZeDorkSlipeur, zindabad}. Strong town reads on {Axelrod, Azrael, Porps, Rhand, Sir Karn}.
For now, I'll leave my vote where it is, and will provide additional content after I do some RL work or when I see more to respond to.
I disagree with this. In order to gain momentum for later days, it's important to have something to pull interactions from.
Cy registers a strong town read on me, and is willing to lynch AI. That's a far cry from where he's put himself recently.
Quote from Cy »
Useless post incoming:
This is pure speculation, but I'm guessing that lynching Obzedat will free the Orzhov players from Immortal Servitude.
It's not something I'm interested in D1, but may be useful down the line to clear up interactions with a few players that are otherwise unconfirmed.
Cy proposes that an Obzedat lynch may result in terminating immortal servitude. Notes that it's baseless spec.
Would rather he were spending more time taking stances on the wagons we'd had up to that point: Atog, Sepiriel, Vishamon, and AI, but he's keeping his posts fairly short and confined to this safe topic.
Lynching Ghost Dad right now is, yes. Worth keeping in mind for later.
In other news, I'm going to switch my vote now - no reason to keep my vote on ZDS when I also think Atog is scum. Unvote ZDS
Vote Atogaholic
The way Cy announces his vote change is extremely self-conscious, here. He also doesn't note any specific event that caused him to want to switch his vote, besides other players grouping towards Atog. In other words, we have a self-conscious bandwagon vote.
ZDS is the only one that actually unvoted Atog. The rest of the recent unvotes were on other players.
In my experience, this isn't alignment-telling for AI. I'm not thrilled that you're sitting back and letting Azrael do the work, when it reads like you want to wagon AI. I could get behind you being worried that an AI lynch would allow Atog to fade into the background, but you're clearly open to each being scum independently of the other, so your unvote and lack of vote don't really mesh for me in this context.
Could you do an in-detail review of why you think AI is scum, if you're more positive he's scum than you are of Atog? I'm more interested in your take on it than Azrael's.
Cy alludes to my case on AI, without taking a stance on it, despite previously registering suspicion on AI. Instead, he intimates that ZDS is riding my coattails in his suspicion of AI, and questions whether ZDS has a basis for his own for voting AI.
I dislike this for several reasons. First, he's once again avoiding putting himself on record on one of the major wagons of the day. The only vote we've had against him so far was his reasonless, self-conscious switch to Atog as Atog's wagon was ratcheting up.
Second, this reads like a made-up reason for suspicion. We've had a ton of thread activity up to this point, and what he picks on is the fact that ZDS agreed with me rather than made up his own reasons for suspicion? That happens all the time and it's usually completely innocent.
Third, I don't understand the disinterest in addressing my case, or AI's alignment. Both those factors are critical to understanding what's going on between the four of us, but instead he scopes in on this tiny nitpick of a case on ZDS. He's not interested in the primary wagon? Why not? Where is his curiosity, what are his thoughts, about any of the things that actually matters? He's repeatedly not giving us any insight on what's going on inside his head on any the wagons that are actually likely to bear fruit.
ZDS: There's a difference between a lack of belief and an inability to convince others. While I have to review Rhand's posts regarding the lack of conviction, they definitely don't fall into the latter category.
@dkings: I have been reading him as town because of 75 and 205. I also wrote down that 164 looked townie, but I'm not sure why any more.
75: I like the language he uses here. It's also one of the first notes anyone has against Atogaholic, which reads genuinely to me. His note on ZDS is null, but was something that aligned with what I read too. 205: While I'll admit I didn't catch his sling at you, I did follow his logic about overanalyzing smaller wagons. Upon further review, it doesn't really make him town, because that's something that could probably come from either alignment.
That said, 80 is horrible for the lynch line up, 91 reads like he might be annoyed that he can't wagon Porps, and I really don't like 169.
So, I guess that puts him back in territory.
Town-points for claiming to be note-keeping, scum points for still not being able to draw any decisive conclusions, for having to get the read pried out of him, and for not being able to read obv-town Rhand as obvtown.
I didn't at the time, but it's not like that's been my only post. Also, what do you mean by "pot, kettle, black"? I haven't accused anyone of any content-related issues, so this just feels out of place.
What specifically about this post do you like? It's got a lot going on, and your statement is vague.
Gets a tad defensive when Zindabad points out his lack of content and over-focus on Obzedat mechanics, as opposed to reading players.
Contributes weight to AI's effort to deflect towards Hawk. The timing of this is extremely suspicious when read in context. I don't see Hawk's posts as any kind of smoking gun, but this is probably the strongest reaction to a post we've seen out of Cythare up to this point, despite a lot of more interesting wagons.
Cy has now gone from registering strong early suspicion of AI, to avoiding giving any reads about his stance on AI or commenting on the AI case, to now actively supporting AI's attempt to deflect a lynch.
I figure that there has to be some way to make it so that ~1/4 of the player base doesn't stay unconfirmed, but my post was baseless spec. It's definitely not worth the D1 lynch.
I don't see how his response to zindabad is a chainsaw defense. He doesn't attack zindabad so much as ask for clarification. I can see how his response regarding Hawk could qualify as one, but I don't think that's scummy unless Hawk flips scum. I don't understand your piece about his logic on Atog.
Looking back over Cy's posts, you can start to see a pattern in his posts. They are consistently less about reading players, or going on record with his own reads, but focus instead on housekeeping questions, mechanics, and logical or procedural nitpicks.
This posting style leaves him free to switch wagons on a dime (as he did with Atog), and keeps him off the hook for trying to fake townie mindset - which is nowhere in evidence.
Criticizes Hawk's guild claim proposal, but again, keeps to that very short, truncated posting style and gives us nothing more than that single sentence.
Does that proposal make you think he's more likely to be scum, or not? Is he even thinking about that??
To be clear, I don't understand the delineation here between guild association and mechanics when some of this is already in the thread. Also, given that the mechanic is dialed up from RtR, I don't want to mass claim. I can see the logic of locking the scum in (I guess), but I don't really see how this helps at all when they've been "seamlessly integrated into the other guilds" anyways. There's nothing to catch them on.
I don't find those points strong enough to consider Atog town. I can see them all coming from a scum player. The mismatch about the coherent false mindset and the inability to respond to queries is the only point that is compelling, but is still something I can see coming from a scum player who is focusing on consistency to the point where they're unable to deviate from their plan.
If Atog's not the lynch for the day, though, I'm getting to the point where I'd prefer hawk to AI.
Disagrees with my defense of Atog, which is fine, but the wording with which he does it is pretty telling. He doesn't argue that he thinks Atog is scummy. He argues that my points aren't strong enough to consider Atog town, and they all *could* come from a scum player. It's less about arguing to kill a guy who is scummy, or arguing for which scenario he thinks is most PROBABLE, like how Axelrod was arguing the point. Instead, his focus is on making sure that Atog remains uncleared. That's the threat on his mind - not a scum getting away, but a player being cleared.
Following that, he once again argues in favor of lynching Hawk (on what basis?) over AI. Despise that. He has yet to give any explanation on whether he's scum or town-reading AI. This would be the perfect place to do it, to explain his thoughts and go on record, but he once again avoids explaining his thoughts.
And if I'm correct about AI's alignment, Cythare was pushing the town away from a successful scum wagon, and towards a poorly justified, town lurker-wagon spearheaded as a deflection by AI. Once again, without giving any window of insight into his own thoughts on either AI or Hawk.
He's left his options open to bus AI, due to failing to go on record about his stance, but for the third time, he's doing what he can to push the town away from AI and back towards Hawk.
I don't agree with this conclusion, and still don't agree with your logic.
The entirety of the phrase "pot, kettle, black: Do you have anything other than mechanics speculation to contribute?" made it seem like you were calling me out for accusing someone else of something, which just didn't make any sense. I guess your clarification kinda makes sense, but that's now how it read. You are right that I hadn't added much non-mechanical content to the thread. I've been keeping my notes to myself for the most part.
This was an attempt to understand hawk's mindset, but yes, it was mechanics-oriented. I like the mudsling here, though.
Sure thing, pot. I bring up the three people that are being discussed. I still prefer Atogaholic to AI. I also prefer hawk to AI. I've been hesitant to post my full thoughts on hawk because I didn't want to derail the other wagons.
Hans? Or do you mean hawk?
Continues being prickly in response to Zindabad calling him out for inactivity.
I've given my thoughts on Rhand and my read on ZDS. Here's a breakdown on the players you noted:
Rhand: Town. See 248 and 349.
ZDS: Leaning scum. Noted in 248. For more specifics, I don't like 51, 126, and 237. He's read better to me recently, though.
AE: Leaning town. His attacks on you haven't felt like scum attacks, and I don't like how you've approached his fixation on you.
hansanator: I'm not sure.
Taredas: Town. I haven't read anything in his posts that felt off, and the effort he's putting in feels genuine.
Upon request, grudgingly gives his reads on a variety of players, but look at how truncated and superficial each of the reads are. He cites a number of posts, but he doesn't explain what those posts made him think, except in all but the most vague and general terms.
Ok. I don't know what else to tell you. Yes, I've been somewhat peripheral.
The above is in response to what Zindabad had to say about Cy's quotes. I have nothing but barn for Zind's read there:
Quote from Zindbad »
All of those reads except the Rhand one sound totally made up. I think you are scum. At the very least, you aren't reading, and the entire theme of your posts today has been a peripheral nibbling-round-the-edges, waiting for something to happen instead of making anything happen yourself.FoS: Cythare.
Quote from Cythare »
Recommend me?
Is killjoy based on snurfy, or do you also take issue with killjoy's posts after replacing in?
This feels a lot like a scum post.
I'm still onboard for Atog or hawk, and zindabad would be fine too. I don't think I want to lynch AI.
In response to Zindabad getting a scum read on Cythare, he immediately adds Zindabad to his list of people he suspects, and lists a post of Zind's that he finds suspicious. That is incredibly ridiculous.
Apparently, what you need to do to get on Cy's scum list is to either suspect him, or be the alternative lynch to his buddy. I can't track any actual, genuine reasons he's given for any of his lynch candidates.
Also, he mentions for the first time that he'd rather not lynch AI, as pressure has finally begun to drop off of AI, but fails to mention why.
A couple reasons - you use a somewhat minor point to avoid addressing it, and the "come back when you have something worth my time" feels to me like something similar to CFTWR. There's also the dismissal out-of-hand tone, but I think that may just be a style thing that I can't see past.
From here on out, we have Cy's reaction to my case. That's a good third of his posts - he's only really come into active posting mode once he came under direct attack, but he did so two minutes after my case was posted. That's an excellent sign of someone who's following the thread closely, but choosing not to comment except when they must.
I've covered AI's defense posts fairly well already, so I'll simply re-summarize. He gives no convincing rationale for believing I'm scum, after having previously town-read me. He falls back on calling it a simple gut-read. He did the exact same thing when Zindabad caught on to him. It's the natural scum response to townie attack. A townie might scum-read an attacker very easily, but when that happens, 99 times out of 100 their beef is with the attack against them being unjustified. Nowhere does Cy do that. Neither does Cy seem particularly concerned by his own case - he seems more worried with being in "the right position to push this", than whether I'm actually scum. But when it's pointed out how weak his justifications really are, he still clings to the read unflinchingly and just moves on to claiming he's convinced by his gut.
One particularly telling post is this one:
Quote from Cy »
It gave me something specific to do - I've been more or less checked out.
This is in response to Proph's critique of Cy coming out of the woodwork immediately to defend himself, and it's very indicative of his mindset. Cy hasn't felt he has something specific to do, until now.
He hasn't felt like he's needed to scum-hunt.
He hasn't felt like he's needed to put his reads on record.
He HAS felt it was important to deflect lynch pressure away from AI and towards Hawk.
He HAS felt it was important to make a bunch of long, detailed posts defending himself the minute he came under attack. Because THAT is something that he does care about.
Cythare hasn't been lurking and failing to put reads on record because he's busy, or hasn't had the time. He's been lurking because he's not interested in faking townie mindset, and he's practically admitted as much to the thread when you read his actions in conjunction with these words.
I think you're confusing less than splendid play with scum play. Everything I read of Cythare had a consistent mentality behind it- disengaged or apathetic perhaps but that's not scum motivation.
I mean how are you even loading the comment "Ew." with that much meaning?
I'll try to get to Snurfy/KJ and Sir Karn to finish off the axis of evil if I can, before deadline. But I've got a new contract starting up tomorrow morning, early, so my time is going to be more limited until that's concluded on Friday.
If I don't get to it, I think Sir Karn is scum for very much the same reasons as Cythare - he's avoiding primary topics of conversation and avoiding giving out details about his mindset and reads. He's also consistently launched poor attacks on town players.
Snurfy/KJ also did his best to avoid commenting on the early wagons, and then moved on to just having very poorly justifiable reads, from strongly-reading as town very scummy players such as Sir Karn and AI, while failing to read blindingly obvious townies as town - all without adequate explanation.
Those four have each been tripping up along vaguely similar lines, and it's not too difficult to spot if you check them out. The 5th scum - that's going to be tougher. Maybe Taredas. Maybe Koolkoal. I think Atog's going to prove to be town given more time and the way the scum have been gunning for him. Maybe Zind or Vish. The rest of those town reads I'm still pretty confident in.
I think you're confusing less than splendid play with scum play. Everything I read of Cythare had a consistent mentality behind it- disengaged or apathetic perhaps but that's not scum motivation.
There are a lot of very real, very noticeable differences between town-lurking and scum-lurking. Hawk is a great example of a pro-town lurker, so was Hansanator while he was around. Their posts were short, but they were sweet, and identifiably town. Cythare is an excellent specimen of a scum lurker.
You don't trust someone who doesn't trust the town to know what his reads are. You don't trust someone who immediately de-lurks when he comes under attack, because he clearly has the time to keep up with the thread on a minute-to-minute basis, but finds defending himself far more interesting than trying to fake finding scum.
We don't have a player who was simply apathetic across the board. We have a player who is apathetic about behaving like an actual townie, but no problem stepping it up to defend himself or respond to specific requests when it suits him.
[quote=Scarbo]
I mean how are you even loading the comment "Ew." with that much meaning?
Context.
Comparison to how little emotion you see in the entire rest of his posts.
Read through his posts, and show me a single other point where he has that kind of an immediate, visceral reaction to what another player has posted.
I think you're confusing less than splendid play with scum play. Everything I read of Cythare had a consistent mentality behind it- disengaged or apathetic perhaps but that's not scum motivation.
There are a lot of very real, very noticeable differences between town-lurking and scum-lurking. Hawk is a great example of a pro-town lurker, so was Hansanator while he was around. Their posts were short, but they were sweet, and identifiably town. Cythare is an excellent specimen of a scum lurker.
You don't trust someone who doesn't trust the town to know what his reads are. You don't trust someone who immediately de-lurks when he comes under attack, because he clearly has the time to keep up with the thread on a minute-to-minute basis, but finds defending himself far more interesting than trying to fake finding scum.
We don't have a player who was simply apathetic across the board. We have a player who is apathetic about behaving like an actual townie, but no problem stepping it up to defend himself or respond to specific requests when it suits him.
Quote from Scarbo »
I mean how are you even loading the comment "Ew." with that much meaning?
Context.
Comparison to how little emotion you see in the entire rest of his posts.
Read through his posts, and show me a single other point where he has that kind of an immediate, visceral reaction to what another player has posted.
i'm too swole to do a prod check tonight, so consider this your unofficial "if you haven't posted in a while you probably should you saw what happened to snurfy and AI" warning.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Az: Do you still consider Cy the lynch for today even with the fact that he has claimed Orzhov?
As far as i can tell he is also under the effects of servitude and as such he provides no relevant information on a flip, I thought that was also in part why people finally backed of from me (aside from the whole "He can't be this stupid as scum, therefore he MUST be town" analysis), so it is interesting to see the town back off from one Orzhov in part because of lack of information but then be so willing to lynch another when it just places us in a similar position come tomorrow (Although yes I am aware that Night will likely provide some info for us to work with).
Anyways I still need to try to do a re-read, the Orzhov claim makes me unwilling to join the Cythare Lynch, I would much rather people went for KK, unless its already been explained/cleared i still dont like the way he went around posting before and there is of course also Hawk.
So yeah pressure lynch on an Orzhov seems wrong since it gives little feedback for toMorrow.
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Quote from »
Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
I'm not too worried about Cythare claiming Orzhov. There's probably something in the game that can let us see his alignment afterwards, and he could just be lying. Still, I think lynching KA first is better because of the guaranteed flip, and because I feel like he has a higher chance of somehow wiggling away D2 than Cythare.
I'm not too worried about Cythare claiming Orzhov. There's probably something in the game that can let us see his alignment afterwards, and he could just be lying. Still, I think lynching KA first is better because of the guaranteed flip, and because I feel like he has a higher chance of somehow wiggling away D2 than Cythare.
1) I agree with whoever said we should lynch you first because your avvy is so darn DM inducing and distracting (this is a joke people!)
2.a) You are working under the assumption that there is a mechanic that can clear ALL the Orzhov in one go so as to verify the alignments
2.b) If you are working under a "case by case" mechanic assumption, we are then hoping that the mechanic can provide the info fast enough to be of use to the town.
3) You are talking about how you much prefer a guaranteed flip but you aren't really putting pressure on it anymore, it seems counter intuitive.
Goddammit!!! I lost my train of thought looking at you avvy... note to self: when responding to Atog do a notepad first then just copy paste the answer.
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Quote from »
Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
If I don't get to it, I think Sir Karn is scum for very much the same reasons as Cythare - he's avoiding primary topics of conversation and avoiding giving out details about his mindset and reads. He's also consistently launched poor attacks on town players.
I commonly refer to my town reads as town players prior to flip. I have no intention of allowing an orzhov claim to push me off our best behavioral case. Cythare is scum and will be proven so sooner or later. In my opinion, this is a read that is obvious enough that I see no pressing need for mod confirmation.
Azrael: How did Cythare eclipse AI/Kami as toDay's lynch for you? Before you were saying AI was as sure a thing as we ever get, or something to that effect. (P.S. come back to the AI/Kami wagon plz.)
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
Work has me too busy for Mafia at the moment, and as such I am going V/LA until 3/12. I will check in when I can.
A couple quick hits while I'm here:
For those who are confident Sepiriel is town (Proph/Taredas/Azrael): There were 5 votes on him at one point. Which of those do you find most likely to come from scum? I'm especially interested in Proph's answer on this.
Also, @Proph... I very rarely vote in the early stages of a game. You should know that by now.
I know this is an old post, but I still believes it proves dkings scum. Now that Deathspeaker is over, I can elaborate on why. In Deathspeaker we had an all-town wagon on town D1. I pushed town into analyzing that wagon in the hopes they were going to try and find scum on it. (we even nk'ed the town player in the hopes town would go analysing. sadly only Bur tried and didn't get support). There is no point in asking people to analyse a wagon like that before flips unless you know the analysis can only result in helping your team.
And, importantly, he left out ZDS from the ones confident that Sepiriel is town.
Azrael: How did Cythare eclipse AI/Kami as toDay's lynch for you? Before you were saying AI was as sure a thing as we ever get, or something to that effect. (P.S. come back to the AI/Kami wagon plz.)
it's a strong 2nd choice. I was open to giving kami a breather to see if maybe ai's bad mood made him give off false positives, but I will cry no tears if he goes down today
I have not iso'd dkings, just the reread, but would not read him as scum at this point for that post. Trying to extrapolate likely scum based on their voting rationales for jping wagons is a pretty time honored and effective scum hunting practice. Don't see it as a likely tell.
I can't bring it to words, but I'm just sure Dkings is scum. He holds on to his early reads too hard. His attack on me was bad. and his Koolkoal vote with the 'I want to join this wagon but will look for original reasons first' post before the vote seals the deal.
I missed this post before. The first four posts aren't issues by themselves. On the latter three, the disconnect between the AI and Atog thing is that you take the time to include the posts that don't necessarily align with your viewpoint. Beyond that, I don't have any specific scum tells here. It's mostly feels.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
So basically, you have no reason to believe that particular "contradiction" was a scum contradiction.
You joined the game with the intent to discredit your two biggest lynch supporters and reached too far to do it. You've got nothing actually scummy on either of us, so, in desperation, you manufactured stances that a townie would never take.
And now that I've called you on this BS you're backpedaling rapidly.
You changed your read on me from town to scum because of...unspecified "feels"?
I don't think I'm misinterpreting you here.
You've tried not to admit that your reason for changing your read was my case on you, my case which was oh-so-coincidentally was posted about two minutes before you just so happened to change your read. When pressed, what you said was your reason was a couple differences of opinion on reads and a procedural mattter with what you call a PBPA that is fully explained by my post being a reply TO an actual full PBPA by ZDS. And when pressed further on none of those issues being actual tells, you now fall back to a calling it a gut read.
This is what being caught in a lie about a made-up scum read looks like.
I'm pretty sure you're scum, but I don't have a cop confirmation yet. Should I wait for someone to confirm it for me before I vote you?
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Atogaholic (3): Cythare, Axelrod, Scarbo
KamikazeArchon (4): KoolKoal, Azrael, Rhand, ZeDorkSlipeur
Scarbo (1): Taredas
Zindabad (1): Archmage Eternal
KoolKoal (2): Prophylaxis, dkingsland967
Azrael (2): Obzedat, KamikazeArchon
Prophylaxis (1): Sir Karn
Cythare (1): Huntzilla
V/LA
None
Prod Watch
To be conducted this evening.
Other business:
- Deadline is this Friday.
- You have to unvote for a new vote to be counted.
- I'm considering implementing a plurality lynch (with minimum votes required) for Today. I'll report back on that. For now you are still trying to reach 11 votes.
- Sepiriel replacement forthcoming. As usual I try to get a PM confirmation of intent to replace. When I do, I'll make the replacement happen. Usually my goal is to keep a player who is contributing in the game rather than replace them if possible.
Did you fail to read the ad nauseam discussion between ZDS/Axelrod and myself regarding a strong pro-town explanation for a supposed scum tell nullifying the tell as useful evidence?
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Az: See above.
KK: I didn't even register you as a major lynch supporter. The only person I saw being aggro on AI was Azrael.
My calculus says Az is the better lynch but I don't think I'm going to convince people by Friday.
unvote
vote Atog
I'm fine with moving forward on Cythare. My push on KoolKoal doesn't seem to be going anywhere and I don't want to be part of the Arch wagon while KoolKoal's on it. One of Cythare's responses I disliked (I'm not in the best position to push this). We really need to get a lynch moving.
Unvote ; Vote: Cythare
Vote: Cythare
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Cythare may be an acceptable "oh crap deadline!" lynch, but I don't understand anyone who isn't voting ai/kami after all this.
I mean, if me being the deadline lynch is still helpful to move it along, that's fine, but it may just result in Day 1, part 2 for the rest of you guys.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Proph: It seemed well-reasoned. It's a promising start. If it stops there it'll be a problem.
ZDS: There are degrees of scumminess and there are degrees of defense, and there are different reasons for defense. The problem with what Az did was a combination of how scummy Atog was, how Az defended him, and what the reasoning was (in particular, that it was direct WIFOM). You are talking as if I said something like "never defend scummy players", which is not the case.
Reviewing Cythare next.
I'm still waiting for you to explain an actual, logical reason why that post you linked could be seen as scum besides "contradictions are always scummy and I don't have to explain why this one was even though no one else thinks it is because reasons."
Rather than uselessly review someone who already has a growing wagon on them, why not actually post the reasons behind your reads that are being questioned. For example: how was Az's defense of togs WIFOM exactly? You're sidestepping every issue thrown at you with vague words and providing proof for none of it. Stop trying to confuse the issues.
Contradictions are a scum tell. I neither have nor need any other reason to call out contradictions.
Az's defense of Atog includes the line "I mean, he's clearly lying. He admitted he was lying. The question is whether he's lying about his lying, or he's lying about his lying about his lying." That's, like, the definition of WIFOM.
Cool, so you're confirming your scum-centric stance that you don't have to make real cases, just call things scummy and hope no one is paying attention.
Except that isn't his defense of Togs, its a single line talking about his defense and he gave reasons for holding his opinion on the matter before and beyond this sentence. See, Az actually put time and effort into his reads. Unlike someone who has manufactured every read to fit his needs, and says as little as possible about them so as hide how flimsy his reads really are. (hint: this someone is kami)
You'd have us believe that Az is in your firmly scum pile entirely for this one line in all his posts. No one will buy that, so you can go ahead and get lynched now.
It isn't used for when someone points out that a behavior is susceptible to more than one possible interpretation, and argues that the "He's scum!" explanation is not significantly more likely than the other.
Daring the town to swallow wine != to pointing out that the town is risking drinking poisoned wine, and that it's probably a bad idea to accept the risk of swallowing iocaine powder when you can wait a little longer and safely run them through with your sword.
I didn't say that I don't need to make cases. I'm not even voting you. You're not my prime scum suspect. I didn't brand you with the Great Glyph of Scumminess, eternal and imperishable, because of that contradiction. I pointed out that it exists, that it's a scum tell, and asked you to explain. That's it. Scum tell does not equal 100% confirmed scum. And the only reason we're even still talking about this is that you won't let it go.
If you're trying to say that everything has to be based on some big case, that's ridiculous. Pointing out little things is how the game works. Outside of huge scumslips, big cases only come from adding up a bunch of little things. Holding off on pointing out a little thing, just because I can't instantly build it into a comprehensive case, would be absurd.
I never said that everything rests on that single line; that's a representative line that I chose to quote because it highlights the WIFOM. It is entirely unreasonable to interpret what I said as "this one line is why he's scum!".
Az: If you honestly think "lying about his lying about his lying" isn't WIFOM, then that's you having a different definition of WIFOM than I do.
If you're just going to continue arguing minutia rather than give any of your reads legs to stand on, then I don't see any point in continuing this. You'll get lynched even without my help.
Cythare's 1st post.
Next post comes three full days later.
Cy registers a strong town read on me, and is willing to lynch AI. That's a far cry from where he's put himself recently.
Cy proposes that an Obzedat lynch may result in terminating immortal servitude. Notes that it's baseless spec.
Would rather he were spending more time taking stances on the wagons we'd had up to that point: Atog, Sepiriel, Vishamon, and AI, but he's keeping his posts fairly short and confined to this safe topic.
The way Cy announces his vote change is extremely self-conscious, here. He also doesn't note any specific event that caused him to want to switch his vote, besides other players grouping towards Atog. In other words, we have a self-conscious bandwagon vote.
Nothing.
Cy alludes to my case on AI, without taking a stance on it, despite previously registering suspicion on AI. Instead, he intimates that ZDS is riding my coattails in his suspicion of AI, and questions whether ZDS has a basis for his own for voting AI.
I dislike this for several reasons. First, he's once again avoiding putting himself on record on one of the major wagons of the day. The only vote we've had against him so far was his reasonless, self-conscious switch to Atog as Atog's wagon was ratcheting up.
Second, this reads like a made-up reason for suspicion. We've had a ton of thread activity up to this point, and what he picks on is the fact that ZDS agreed with me rather than made up his own reasons for suspicion? That happens all the time and it's usually completely innocent.
Third, I don't understand the disinterest in addressing my case, or AI's alignment. Both those factors are critical to understanding what's going on between the four of us, but instead he scopes in on this tiny nitpick of a case on ZDS. He's not interested in the primary wagon? Why not? Where is his curiosity, what are his thoughts, about any of the things that actually matters? He's repeatedly not giving us any insight on what's going on inside his head on any the wagons that are actually likely to bear fruit.
Town-points for claiming to be note-keeping, scum points for still not being able to draw any decisive conclusions, for having to get the read pried out of him, and for not being able to read obv-town Rhand as obvtown.
Gets a tad defensive when Zindabad points out his lack of content and over-focus on Obzedat mechanics, as opposed to reading players.
Contributes weight to AI's effort to deflect towards Hawk. The timing of this is extremely suspicious when read in context. I don't see Hawk's posts as any kind of smoking gun, but this is probably the strongest reaction to a post we've seen out of Cythare up to this point, despite a lot of more interesting wagons.
Cy has now gone from registering strong early suspicion of AI, to avoiding giving any reads about his stance on AI or commenting on the AI case, to now actively supporting AI's attempt to deflect a lynch.
More obzedat mechanics discussion.
Looking back over Cy's posts, you can start to see a pattern in his posts. They are consistently less about reading players, or going on record with his own reads, but focus instead on housekeeping questions, mechanics, and logical or procedural nitpicks.
This posting style leaves him free to switch wagons on a dime (as he did with Atog), and keeps him off the hook for trying to fake townie mindset - which is nowhere in evidence.
Criticizes Hawk's guild claim proposal, but again, keeps to that very short, truncated posting style and gives us nothing more than that single sentence.
Does that proposal make you think he's more likely to be scum, or not? Is he even thinking about that??
More useless mechanics speculation.
Disagrees with my defense of Atog, which is fine, but the wording with which he does it is pretty telling. He doesn't argue that he thinks Atog is scummy. He argues that my points aren't strong enough to consider Atog town, and they all *could* come from a scum player. It's less about arguing to kill a guy who is scummy, or arguing for which scenario he thinks is most PROBABLE, like how Axelrod was arguing the point. Instead, his focus is on making sure that Atog remains uncleared. That's the threat on his mind - not a scum getting away, but a player being cleared.
Following that, he once again argues in favor of lynching Hawk (on what basis?) over AI. Despise that. He has yet to give any explanation on whether he's scum or town-reading AI. This would be the perfect place to do it, to explain his thoughts and go on record, but he once again avoids explaining his thoughts.
And if I'm correct about AI's alignment, Cythare was pushing the town away from a successful scum wagon, and towards a poorly justified, town lurker-wagon spearheaded as a deflection by AI. Once again, without giving any window of insight into his own thoughts on either AI or Hawk.
He's left his options open to bus AI, due to failing to go on record about his stance, but for the third time, he's doing what he can to push the town away from AI and back towards Hawk.
*frown*
Defending his PTAP.
Sniping at Hawk, complete with unintentional irony!
Continuing to argue that Atog shouldn't be considered town.
Nothing.
Continues being prickly in response to Zindabad calling him out for inactivity.
Upon request, grudgingly gives his reads on a variety of players, but look at how truncated and superficial each of the reads are. He cites a number of posts, but he doesn't explain what those posts made him think, except in all but the most vague and general terms.
Awwwwww
To Hawk.
The above is in response to what Zindabad had to say about Cy's quotes. I have nothing but barn for Zind's read there:
In response to Zindabad getting a scum read on Cythare, he immediately adds Zindabad to his list of people he suspects, and lists a post of Zind's that he finds suspicious. That is incredibly ridiculous.
Apparently, what you need to do to get on Cy's scum list is to either suspect him, or be the alternative lynch to his buddy. I can't track any actual, genuine reasons he's given for any of his lynch candidates.
Also, he mentions for the first time that he'd rather not lynch AI, as pressure has finally begun to drop off of AI, but fails to mention why.
[
Tries to justify his Zindabad scum-read further.
quote from="Cythare »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/mafia/598429-gatecrash-day-one-murder-investigation-deadline?comment=788"]Have I? I've made no indication I want to jump on the AI wagon, and I don't plan on changing my mind on this.[/quote]
From here on out, we have Cy's reaction to my case. That's a good third of his posts - he's only really come into active posting mode once he came under direct attack, but he did so two minutes after my case was posted. That's an excellent sign of someone who's following the thread closely, but choosing not to comment except when they must.
I've covered AI's defense posts fairly well already, so I'll simply re-summarize. He gives no convincing rationale for believing I'm scum, after having previously town-read me. He falls back on calling it a simple gut-read. He did the exact same thing when Zindabad caught on to him. It's the natural scum response to townie attack. A townie might scum-read an attacker very easily, but when that happens, 99 times out of 100 their beef is with the attack against them being unjustified. Nowhere does Cy do that. Neither does Cy seem particularly concerned by his own case - he seems more worried with being in "the right position to push this", than whether I'm actually scum. But when it's pointed out how weak his justifications really are, he still clings to the read unflinchingly and just moves on to claiming he's convinced by his gut.
One particularly telling post is this one:
This is in response to Proph's critique of Cy coming out of the woodwork immediately to defend himself, and it's very indicative of his mindset. Cy hasn't felt he has something specific to do, until now.
He hasn't felt like he's needed to scum-hunt.
He hasn't felt like he's needed to put his reads on record.
He HAS felt it was important to deflect lynch pressure away from AI and towards Hawk.
He HAS felt it was important to make a bunch of long, detailed posts defending himself the minute he came under attack. Because THAT is something that he does care about.
Cythare hasn't been lurking and failing to put reads on record because he's busy, or hasn't had the time. He's been lurking because he's not interested in faking townie mindset, and he's practically admitted as much to the thread when you read his actions in conjunction with these words.
unvote
Confirm Vote: Cythare.
I mean how are you even loading the comment "Ew." with that much meaning?
If I don't get to it, I think Sir Karn is scum for very much the same reasons as Cythare - he's avoiding primary topics of conversation and avoiding giving out details about his mindset and reads. He's also consistently launched poor attacks on town players.
Snurfy/KJ also did his best to avoid commenting on the early wagons, and then moved on to just having very poorly justifiable reads, from strongly-reading as town very scummy players such as Sir Karn and AI, while failing to read blindingly obvious townies as town - all without adequate explanation.
Those four have each been tripping up along vaguely similar lines, and it's not too difficult to spot if you check them out. The 5th scum - that's going to be tougher. Maybe Taredas. Maybe Koolkoal. I think Atog's going to prove to be town given more time and the way the scum have been gunning for him. Maybe Zind or Vish. The rest of those town reads I'm still pretty confident in.
Context.
Comparison to how little emotion you see in the entire rest of his posts.
Read through his posts, and show me a single other point where he has that kind of an immediate, visceral reaction to what another player has posted.
You won't find one.
There are a lot of very real, very noticeable differences between town-lurking and scum-lurking. Hawk is a great example of a pro-town lurker, so was Hansanator while he was around. Their posts were short, but they were sweet, and identifiably town. Cythare is an excellent specimen of a scum lurker.
You don't trust someone who doesn't trust the town to know what his reads are. You don't trust someone who immediately de-lurks when he comes under attack, because he clearly has the time to keep up with the thread on a minute-to-minute basis, but finds defending himself far more interesting than trying to fake finding scum.
We don't have a player who was simply apathetic across the board. We have a player who is apathetic about behaving like an actual townie, but no problem stepping it up to defend himself or respond to specific requests when it suits him.
Context.
Comparison to how little emotion you see in the entire rest of his posts.
Read through his posts, and show me a single other point where he has that kind of an immediate, visceral reaction to what another player has posted.
You won't find one.
As far as i can tell he is also under the effects of servitude and as such he provides no relevant information on a flip, I thought that was also in part why people finally backed of from me (aside from the whole "He can't be this stupid as scum, therefore he MUST be town" analysis), so it is interesting to see the town back off from one Orzhov in part because of lack of information but then be so willing to lynch another when it just places us in a similar position come tomorrow (Although yes I am aware that Night will likely provide some info for us to work with).
Anyways I still need to try to do a re-read, the Orzhov claim makes me unwilling to join the Cythare Lynch, I would much rather people went for KK, unless its already been explained/cleared i still dont like the way he went around posting before and there is of course also Hawk.
So yeah pressure lynch on an Orzhov seems wrong since it gives little feedback for toMorrow.
1) I agree with whoever said we should lynch you first because your avvy is so darn DM inducing and distracting (this is a joke people!)
2.a) You are working under the assumption that there is a mechanic that can clear ALL the Orzhov in one go so as to verify the alignments
2.b) If you are working under a "case by case" mechanic assumption, we are then hoping that the mechanic can provide the info fast enough to be of use to the town.
3) You are talking about how you much prefer a guaranteed flip but you aren't really putting pressure on it anymore, it seems counter intuitive.
Goddammit!!! I lost my train of thought looking at you avvy... note to self: when responding to Atog do a notepad first then just copy paste the answer.
how do you know he's attacking town players?
I know this is an old post, but I still believes it proves dkings scum. Now that Deathspeaker is over, I can elaborate on why. In Deathspeaker we had an all-town wagon on town D1. I pushed town into analyzing that wagon in the hopes they were going to try and find scum on it. (we even nk'ed the town player in the hopes town would go analysing. sadly only Bur tried and didn't get support). There is no point in asking people to analyse a wagon like that before flips unless you know the analysis can only result in helping your team.
And, importantly, he left out ZDS from the ones confident that Sepiriel is town.