The type of baiting I'm referring to is the inane type of reaction testing where people intentionally behave scummy thinking they can trap mafia that way while town will recognize the act except it more often nets town. I hat the act scummy on purpose as town play because almost no one knows how to do it correctly. It's a pet peeve of mine and it felt like that's what he was suggesting.
I disagree. Sure, running naked through the thread screaming "I'M MAFIA, KILL ME!" might seriously rouse some suspicion in mafia, it's not as hard to pull of as you make it sound. I admit getting yourself lynched in a single day might not be always easy to do, but doing so in the longer run is feasible. (I'm speaking out of experience here.)
And are you sure that mafia wouldn't take the chance if they are handed down a mislynch on a silver plate? (They did take it when it happened D1 in CCMVIII).
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Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
Q appears, runs naked through the thread screaming "I'M MAFIA, KILL ME", then notices the redshirt in the corner taking aim with a phaser. Q snaps his fingers, simultaneously clothing himself in a Starfleet black-and-gray captain's uniform & turning the phaser into a ball of yarn, then snaps his fingers again & disappears.
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I think most of the people ave posted so far. as other have said, there is no point in not testing HP's claim. I said I wanted to see more posters before I voted for the test lynch of HP. This is what is taking the center of discussion and after HP's claim is tested, we will be able to move on.
I say lynch HP and see what happens. Vote HP.
... what made you change your mind? Earlier you seemed to have no hurry to check HP's claim and now you suddenly want to get over with this...
I never changed my mind. I said I thought we needed to wait until everyone post and then lynch. At the time of my post, all but one person had posted, so my condition for voting was triggered. I weighed the options internally, and decided the disadvantages of night shenanigans was worth finding out if HP was gambiting on claiming the role.
Vote: HookerPunch
-to confirm alignment and info. BTW, had you claimed only one of your abilities (either, just not both) that would have been much more useful, but a standard IC is still good, so whatever.
After that is dealt with, my vote is going on Tan, who I'm getting huge scum vibes from in literally every single post. Rai, I'm suspicious of as well, but less so.
As for the other topics of discussion, I'm leaning fairly town on Bur, and also slightly town on BlackVise (I feel like a lot of people are misreading or perhaps just not completely processing post 77, but I think there are points in his favor, rather than against, in there).
@Tammy: I don't think HP was serious when suggesting possible downsides to the role; I feel like HP was just underestimating the usefulness of those abilities and was looking for unnecessary explanations for why it existed. There's no reason not to confirm HP here.
*Note: Though I'm leaning town on both Tammy and much more so HP, in the incredibly unlikely event that HP somehow flips scum here, kill Tammy immediately.
The crowd surrounds HookerPunch, drops a noose around her neck, ties it to the new Promenade second level railing, and throws her off the ledge.
Unfortunately for the crowd, she failed to fall. While hovering there, she shouted out "Q! Why are you helping me?"
A voice filters out from thin air, saying "I was just beginning to like you, Jean-Luc. You had such potential. All good things must come to an end... but not right now." In a flash of light, HookerPunch disappears from her would-be final hanging place and reappears on the ledge.
HookerPunch (Jean-Luc Picard, Town Enterprise Captain) has NOT been lynched. Votes are reset to zero & Day 1 continues.
@Tammy: Your post #126 is the exact reason why we need to test out HP now. The longer she is unconfirmed, the more scum can take the opportunity to WIFOM us out of it. In fact you then even go on to say you are fine testing said claim, yet you don't put your vote where your mouth is and vote HP? Your action, or lack of it in this case is certainly against what you are saying.
Now on to the part about the miller claim. Yes not a lot of people jumpped on him, but there is a good reason you are forgetting. The claimed miller is likely not living too long. If the vig does not trust him, he is going to be shot, and if he turns out scummy, he will be lynched. I dunno how much experience you have with millers, but so far things have been going to SOP in that regard.
At least things were going to SOP until you decide to ring in and say he is likely town after making a whole paragraph about why he could be scum. Once again, it seems in this case one paragraph counteracts the other as far as the vibe I am getting on how you feel. Why did you feel the need to scold the town about the miller? Why not just say you feel he is town and why you feel he is town?
Finally, I know it was addressed earlier, but why the aversion to Killjoy's posts about HP's claim? The whole point of mafia is analyzing actions and reactions, yet here in essence you say we should not do that? I get what you say about how traps catch town as much as scum, but it is a whole different beast when it comes to a wagon analysis (Which is what a lot of mid games break down to.)
Unvote
As for Arianhod, I think we should actually have him just outright claim now. The advantage is we likely know who the scum are claim wise and thus make it harder for scum to fakeclaim later on. As a reference from STMU II, the miller roles were Luck Norris as Zurin Dakal (a cardassian) AND Garuk (Also Cardassian), thus giving us an idea where to look.
This is unconvincing, at best. I wouldn't ever make any assumptions about the scum roles based solely on a miller claim.
As an added bonus it keeps him in check should he be scum trying a miller gambit on us, as if he tries to fake claim any info that us as a town knows can only be town associated, we string him up.
This feels off. It'd be expected for a townie to be skeptical of the lack of name, but the way he approaches this question feels wrong, almost excited about the situation.
I dunno how we can salvage any analysis from it at this point, but I guess I can hold off on the vote until everyone checks in.
Unvote
And then, just like that, no steam ahead. I mean, I can understand reconsidering an idea, and even specifically moving from being ready to lynch HP to being willing to wait. But this just feels like he's so eager to please, willing to follow along to blend in, especially after the "full steam ahead" comment.
The only reason we are holding off lynching HP is we want others to check in and get a feel for everyone? Sounds like a plan. The only people who want a quick lynching at this point would be the scum.
I think under the circumstance, not only scum would want a quick lynch.
If either Tan or Rai flips scum, this post needs to be closely looked at later, because if Tan isn't coaching Rai here, then I have no idea what the point of this post is. Tan seems to be contradicting Rai, but he's not showing any of the pressure or hostility he's shown towards other players.
The whole point of mafia is analyzing actions and reactions, yet here in essence you say we should not do that?
So, with this in mind Tan, can you explain why exactly you jumped on Bur earlier in the game for looking into why players were reacting to Arianrhod as they were?
I mean the role itself does seem silly. Why have being lynched be the trigger, I just don't see the purpose unless it's just to amuse the mod himself? I don't know anything about Star Trek, is there flavor reasoning for that trigger?
Actually it seems quite common in this kind of game. The card game I play (Ultimate Werewolf) has a role that does exactly this - if you would be lynched, instead reveal your role (proving you're town).
Oh, the IC role I'm perfectly comfortable with. The lynching as a trigger was what I thought was weird as there really doesn't seem to be a purpose for it, which is why I wondered if there was a flavor reason for it. Once in a Rocky Horror game, Janet just had to post a phrase Toucha Toucha Touch me or something like that as the trigger and the mod confirmed he was an IC; however, in turn he lost his ability to be watched once he became confirmed town.
#14, Arianrhod: Why not just full claim here?
#22, Tanarin: Agree with the full claim.
#23, LnG: Try to explain. I’m curious.
#26, Rhand: Probably.
#30, Wildfire: I hate this post with a passion. There’s no point to it; it’s a “busy post”. Like you’re trying to be active, but not being active.
#33, Tanarin: Something about this just… rubs me wrong. Do you agree or disagree that Wildfire’s #30 was terrible and why?
#34, Wildfire: Same as #30. I do not like this post at all.
#38, HP: I’ll buy it.
#51, Bur: This answer to Tanarin was wholly unsatisfying. If you would have done the same thing, shouldn’t you have a generally positive opinion towards Arianrhod? What were you hoping to gain/figure out by asking others how they reached their conclusion on him?
Vote: Bur
#60, Killjoy: Agreed.
#69, Rai: Terrible post is terrible. It’s just filler nonsense.
#71, DCIII: Why does Tanarin’s 67 feel self-conscious? Agree re: Rai
#77, BlackVise: This is your first post and you elected to not comment on the many other things that’ve been going on? Not a fan of this post.
#89, DCIII: iRebel thanks this post. Add Bur and Wildfire to the list of early scum reads.
#90, Cantrip: Why the random arbitrary statistical figure? If its “probably the right play” to test HPs claim, then why does it matter when it happens?
#96, Cythare: /barn.
#107, Cythare re: #104, Karn: /barn
#110, Wildfire: How is this anything but hairsplitting?
#113, Wildfire: Enlighten us.
#115, Wildfire: I’m confused by this post. Can you explain what you were trying to say because my head spins whenever I read it.
#123, Rai: Well that’s your second awful post.
Unvote; Vote: Rai
#124, Hans: Same as BlackVise… your first post and you have zero to say about anything that’s been going on?
#126, Tammy: I agree on testing HP claim; I don’t much see a point in testing it toDay but if it’s going to be a distraction then I’m okay with it.
@BlackVise, LnG, Hans, Rhand, Killjoy, Kamikaze: What do you think of Bur and Rai?
#159, KCC: I agree that Tanarin is giving weird vibes but why do you dislike him more than Rai? When I look at #77 I don’t see anything particularly good or useful from it, and that 77 posts in there was plenty to comment on.
What points of favour do you see in it?
EWP: Nevermind the first question re: Tan.
I want to lynch: Rai, Tanarin
I’m okay lynching: Bur, Wildfire
I’d rather not lynch: Cantripmancer, DCIII, Arianrhod, Sir Karn, Tammy
I refuse to lynch: Wheat, Cythare, KCC, TMCT, HP.
Null: Rhand, Kamikaze, Hans, BlackVise, LnG, Killjoy
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I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
I will never agree that someone with a town role pm deciding to act scummy to "trap scum" is a good idea. If you disagree with that then we're looking at the game in fundamentally different ways, and as much as I love discussing mafia theory it's not really alignment relevant or worth continuing unless you're just interested in determining my mind set. I've only seen someone use the IC role and behave in a "scummy" manner that wasn't detrimental to the game state once, but he's someone with a lot of experience and he started off the game very protown and as the day progressed started behaving in slightly opportunistic ways to see if someone would pick up on the change in behavior. It wasn't overt at all, and when I replaced in I thought for sure he was scum, made a case and he triggered his IC status. He did a good job at it, but it didn't net any real reads whatsoever. Mafia actually killed me that night and continued to kill other people never killing the IC.
Depends on the mafia. Not everyone behaves in the same or predictable manner.
The type of baiting I'm referring to is the inane type of reaction testing where people intentionally behave scummy thinking they can trap mafia that way while town will recognize the act except it more often nets town. I hat the act scummy on purpose as town play because almost no one knows how to do it correctly. It's a pet peeve of mine and it felt like that's what he was suggesting.
I disagree. Sure, running naked through the thread screaming "I'M MAFIA, KILL ME!" might seriously rouse some suspicion in mafia, it's not as hard to pull of as you make it sound. I admit getting yourself lynched in a single day might not be always easy to do, but doing so in the longer run is feasible. (I'm speaking out of experience here.)
And are you sure that mafia wouldn't take the chance if they are handed down a mislynch on a silver plate? (They did take it when it happened D1 in CCMVIII).
I will never agree that someone with a town role pm deciding to act scummy to "trap scum" is a good idea. If you disagree with that then we're looking at the game in fundamentally different ways, and as much as I love discussing mafia theory it's not really alignment relevant or worth continuing unless you're just interested in determining my mind set. I've only seen someone use the IC role and behave in a "scummy" manner that wasn't detrimental to the game state once, but he's someone with a lot of experience and he started off the game very protown and as the day progressed started behaving in slightly opportunistic ways to see if someone would pick up on the change in behavior. It wasn't overt at all, and when I replaced in I thought for sure he was scum, made a case and he triggered his IC status. He did a good job at it, but it didn't net any real reads whatsoever. Mafia actually killed me that night and continued to kill other people never killing the IC.
Depends on the mafia. Not everyone behaves in the same or predictable manner.
Crap. I'm sorry; I'm still learning this board. This is what I was replying to.
Hopefully that gives you enough and I'm not missing an important category. I didn't want to go back and find a list and so came up with a bunch on the Spot.
*TMCT licks the blood from Wheat's fingers in apology, hoping the meaning of the bite was clear.
He then nudges KCC's foot and points his head toward Bur, letting out a meow. While waiting for a response he cautiously brushes up against her, tail ever-so-slightly tensed, and stares at Tanarin with a cocked head.*
Did you not finish reading the thread when you posted this?
Quote from Tanarin »
@Tammy: Your post #126 is the exact reason why we need to test out HP now. The longer she is unconfirmed, the more scum can take the opportunity to WIFOM us out of it. In fact you then even go on to say you are fine testing said claim, yet you don't put your vote where your mouth is and vote HP? Your action, or lack of it in this case is certainly against what you are saying.
Okay two things. First, so? I don't put down a vote until I'm sure that's what I want to do in the first place. Second, quoi? Did you read
my entire post or were you so in a rush to make a dumb point that you didn't notice that at the very bottom of the post I said I'd vote Nati but that would be the hammer and I'd rather wait for her to come in and talk just in case something did happen?
Quote from "tanarin" »
Now on to the part about the miller claim. Yes not a lot of people jumpped on him, but there is a good reason you are forgetting. The claimed miller is likely not living too long. If the vig does not trust him, he is going to be shot, and if he turns out scummy, he will be lynched. I dunno how much experience you have with millers, but so far things have been going to SOP in that regard.
At least things were going to SOP until you decide to ring in and say he is likely town after making a whole paragraph about why he could be scum. Once again, it seems in this case one paragraph counteracts the other as far as the vibe I am getting on how you feel. Why did you feel the need to scold the town about the miller? Why not just say you feel he is town and why you feel he is town?
Seriously, did you just read every other line of my post? I mean I understand that I tend to ramble and I suppose it's possible you got interested in that same ball of yarn TMCT did, but I literally do not know how you can come to this conclusion or are asking me the questions you are.
I never once gave a reason why Arian could be scum and don't think he is. (I had one little rabbit hole through out, which as I said was a note for if either of the people I mentioned did flip scum.) The only thing I did say was the scum do fake claim miller. I never said that people should be jumping on him for the miller claim. What I said was I didn't understand why people accepted that claim without batting an eye, which is an easy fake claim for scum to make, and then call out gambit on Nati's claim, which is a much more unlikely fake claim for scum to make. It doesn't make sense to be skeptical about one while accepting the other and I want to look back at who did so and why.
What makes you think a claimed miller isn't going to live very long? I've seen millers make it to end game and seen scum win in part based on the oh scum wouldn't fake claim miller nonsense. And why shouldn't people be critical about claimed roles because maybe a vig will take care of it if the vig doesn't trust them? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Quote from "tanarin" »
Finally, I know it was addressed earlier, but why the aversion to Killjoy's posts about HP's claim? The whole point of mafia is analyzing actions and reactions, yet here in essence you say we should not do that? I get what you say about how traps catch town as much as scum, but it is a whole different beast when it comes to a wagon analysis (Which is what a lot of mid games break down to.)
I never said we shouldn't analyze actions and reactions, and considering my whole point about the reactions to each of the claims I didn't even insinuate it. I'm not going to continue to reiterate my points on this though as I feel like my interaction with Bur should answer any questions you might have about my point concerning killjoy.
I feel like you saw wildfire say he wanted to lynch me and smelled blood in the water as this just does not feel like an honest interpretation to my post.
When I look at #77 I don’t see anything particularly good or useful from it, and that 77 posts in there was plenty to comment on.
What points of favour do you see in it?
Hmm... I'm not sure I can answer this clearly without putting words in BV's mouth. In which case, this is probably important anyway, as well as being the best way to respond:
*He then nudges KCC's foot and points his head toward Bur, letting out a meow. While waiting for a response he cautiously brushes up against her, tail ever-so-slightly tensed, and stares at Tanarin with a cocked head.*
*KCC reassuringly pets TMCT*
I don't think you need to be afraid of Bur; I've looked him over closely, and he seems friendly. I understand why Bur is getting the attention he is getting, but underneath, I like his questions and I feel like his attention is in the right place. Tan, on the other hand, you should feel free to use as a scratching post.
@Tammy: I completely agree that Tan's points against you look insincere.
@iRebel - Tan's post felt self-conscious to me because he unvoted HP in response to Killjoy saying that he'd have preferred that we get more content into the thread prior to testing HP's claim. He recognized that it would be hard to get much analysis not already skewed by HP's claim, but still unvoted in response to Killjoy's comment despite the fact that HP was nowhere near the lynch threshol. It struck me as being overly conscious of what scrutiny his vote might take/being overly agreeable with Killjoy's concern despite not thinking there was any merit to the concern.
@Cythare - I think the missing out on RVS tell is a pretty good one, especially in light of other scummy things. It's knowing that you're "supposed" to RVS but knowing you're at a point in the game where it's not relevant, but feeling the need to comment on it prior to posting.
His follow up to LnGr about HP (that she could be scum trying to put off having us vote her) doesn't make sense in light of wanting to wait to test the claim, either.
Don't like Cantrip's "why do you assume that HP is gambiting scum" line. Don't like the point it tries to hint at/imply about Wildfire, and also the logic that it uses around the likelihood of HP lying about his role as town was weak. I also think that the "asking people their mafia experience" tell is a pretty good one as well.
There's something about the Tammy/Tan interaction that I don't really care for but I'm having trouble putting my finger on. Something about the way in which she's approaching him that says "I'm suspicious of you" but doesn't really seem to be committed to it. It's like... it feels like an obligation to debate him - and the conclusion is a pretty damning one (that he wasn't making an honest case on her and smelled blood in the water after the Wildfire post) but doesn't follow it up with a vote which, conservative about voting or no, is a conclusion I'd expect to follow with a vote. Also, in a 21 person game, one post from Wildfire is enough to smell blood in the water? That part of the conclusion feels contrived and like an add-on considering she could have just said that his case wasn't honest.
Why do you assume that HP is gambiting scum? Given that we don't know HP's motivation, why would we curtail D1 discussion, essentially starting the game on N1 with a brief prologue? Even the discussion we're having proves that there's value in more discussion before testing HP's claim.
But that discussion's already been poisoned by the reveal itself, no?
There were really two options here: Gambiting scum or town telling the truth. If the latter is the case (and it appears it was), we lost nothing by testing the claim. Hence why gambiting town is the only one I addressed here.
#14, Arianrhod: Why not just full claim here?
#22, Tanarin: Agree with the full claim.
#23, LnG: Try to explain. I’m curious.
#26, Rhand: Probably.
#30, Wildfire: I hate this post with a passion. There’s no point to it; it’s a “busy post”. Like you’re trying to be active, but not being active.
#33, Tanarin: Something about this just… rubs me wrong. Do you agree or disagree that Wildfire’s #30 was terrible and why?
#34, Wildfire: Same as #30. I do not like this post at all.
#38, HP: I’ll buy it.
#51, Bur: This answer to Tanarin was wholly unsatisfying. If you would have done the same thing, shouldn’t you have a generally positive opinion towards Arianrhod? What were you hoping to gain/figure out by asking others how they reached their conclusion on him?
Vote: Bur
#60, Killjoy: Agreed.
#69, Rai: Terrible post is terrible. It’s just filler nonsense.
#71, DCIII: Why does Tanarin’s 67 feel self-conscious? Agree re: Rai
#77, BlackVise: This is your first post and you elected to not comment on the many other things that’ve been going on? Not a fan of this post.
#89, DCIII: iRebel thanks this post. Add Bur and Wildfire to the list of early scum reads.
#90, Cantrip: Why the random arbitrary statistical figure? If its “probably the right play” to test HPs claim, then why does it matter when it happens?
#96, Cythare: /barn.
#107, Cythare re: #104, Karn: /barn
#110, Wildfire: How is this anything but hairsplitting?
#113, Wildfire: Enlighten us.
#115, Wildfire: I’m confused by this post. Can you explain what you were trying to say because my head spins whenever I read it.
#123, Rai: Well that’s your second awful post.
Unvote; Vote: Rai
#124, Hans: Same as BlackVise… your first post and you have zero to say about anything that’s been going on?
#126, Tammy: I agree on testing HP claim; I don’t much see a point in testing it toDay but if it’s going to be a distraction then I’m okay with it.
@BlackVise, LnG, Hans, Rhand, Killjoy, Kamikaze: What do you think of Bur and Rai?
#159, KCC: I agree that Tanarin is giving weird vibes but why do you dislike him more than Rai? When I look at #77 I don’t see anything particularly good or useful from it, and that 77 posts in there was plenty to comment on.
What points of favour do you see in it?
EWP: Nevermind the first question re: Tan.
I want to lynch: Rai, Tanarin
I’m okay lynching: Bur, Wildfire
I’d rather not lynch: Cantripmancer, DCIII, Arianrhod, Sir Karn, Tammy
I refuse to lynch: Wheat, Cythare, KCC, TMCT, HP.
Null: Rhand, Kamikaze, Hans, BlackVise, LnG, Killjoy
As annoying as mass-quote walls of text are, this is even more annoying. I'd rather not basically re-read the entire thread to address your concern with my posts. If you have specific questions on posts, please quote the posts for context. A number tells me nothing.
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vote Bur
* The fishing for why people say Arian is town is ugly: when I said that I saw something from my role pm, he should've dropped it instead of asking Wheat the same question again. It's no good to out what now, while there is still possible scum to catch with this.
* The fence-sitty post #51 doesn't sit well with me.
Yeah, if HP's not telling the truth and we go to Night, we'll still have some discussion rather than a brainless stream of "let's test the IC claim" statements.
Assume HP is gambiting scum. We "test" the claim and lynch her. What have we lost? Town PRs maybe have a slightly harder time picking out people to protect/shoot/cop/track/whatever, but the scum also have a harder time picking out PRs to NK. We go into tomorrow likely -1 scum -1 VT, which is overall a good situation.
My thoughts about Tammy's #126:
While the whole "Let's not kill HP yet, there are probably some consequences" sounds like bit like a attempt to save his partner-in-crime's (which is quite funny, since I doubt HP is mafia) failed gambit AND really stupid, I still want to hear more and not make up my opinions regarding Tammy from just a single post.
However, I agree his points regarding Arian (claiming not having a name, instant miller-claim) and why Arian is town.
I really disagree with Tammy's disagreement with Killjoy and Tammy's statement that HP shouldn't have even tried to bait mafia with her role (assuming she's not lying). If there were a chance to get us data, we should get that data. It wouldn't hurt us at all to have more data to analyse.
IGMEOY, Tammy.
The only thing you say about her that's scummy is that she looks like the buddy of someone you think is town. Why does that even come near enough for a "IGMEOY"?
The type of baiting I'm referring to is the inane type of reaction testing where people intentionally behave scummy thinking they can trap mafia that way while town will recognize the act except it more often nets town. I hat the act scummy on purpose as town play because almost no one knows how to do it correctly. It's a pet peeve of mine and it felt like that's what he was suggesting.
I disagree. Sure, running naked through the thread screaming "I'M MAFIA, KILL ME!" might seriously rouse some suspicion in mafia, it's not as hard to pull of as you make it sound. I admit getting yourself lynched in a single day might not be always easy to do, but doing so in the longer run is feasible. (I'm speaking out of experience here.)
And are you sure that mafia wouldn't take the chance if they are handed down a mislynch on a silver plate? (They did take it when it happened D1 in CCMVIII).
How is this line of questioning going to tell you anything about Tammy's alignment?
-snip-
As for the other topics of discussion, I'm leaning fairly town on Bur, and also slightly town on BlackVise (I feel like a lot of people are misreading or perhaps just not completely processing post 77, but I think there are points in his favor, rather than against, in there).
-snip-
I'm not liking how you put Bur and BV together but only explain the BV read.
Why do you think Bur is town?
#14, Arianrhod: Why not just full claim here?
#22, Tanarin: Agree with the full claim.
#23, LnG: Try to explain. I’m curious.
#26, Rhand: Probably.
#30, Wildfire: I hate this post with a passion. There’s no point to it; it’s a “busy post”. Like you’re trying to be active, but not being active.
#33, Tanarin: Something about this just… rubs me wrong. Do you agree or disagree that Wildfire’s #30 was terrible and why?
#34, Wildfire: Same as #30. I do not like this post at all.
#38, HP: I’ll buy it.
#51, Bur: This answer to Tanarin was wholly unsatisfying. If you would have done the same thing, shouldn’t you have a generally positive opinion towards Arianrhod? What were you hoping to gain/figure out by asking others how they reached their conclusion on him?
Vote: Bur
#60, Killjoy: Agreed.
#69, Rai: Terrible post is terrible. It’s just filler nonsense.
#71, DCIII: Why does Tanarin’s 67 feel self-conscious? Agree re: Rai
#77, BlackVise: This is your first post and you elected to not comment on the many other things that’ve been going on? Not a fan of this post.
#89, DCIII: iRebel thanks this post. Add Bur and Wildfire to the list of early scum reads.
#90, Cantrip: Why the random arbitrary statistical figure? If its “probably the right play” to test HPs claim, then why does it matter when it happens?
#96, Cythare: /barn.
#107, Cythare re: #104, Karn: /barn
#110, Wildfire: How is this anything but hairsplitting?
#113, Wildfire: Enlighten us.
#115, Wildfire: I’m confused by this post. Can you explain what you were trying to say because my head spins whenever I read it.
#123, Rai: Well that’s your second awful post.
Unvote; Vote: Rai
#124, Hans: Same as BlackVise… your first post and you have zero to say about anything that’s been going on?
#126, Tammy: I agree on testing HP claim; I don’t much see a point in testing it toDay but if it’s going to be a distraction then I’m okay with it.
@BlackVise, LnG, Hans, Rhand, Killjoy, Kamikaze: What do you think of Bur and Rai?
#159, KCC: I agree that Tanarin is giving weird vibes but why do you dislike him more than Rai? When I look at #77 I don’t see anything particularly good or useful from it, and that 77 posts in there was plenty to comment on.
What points of favour do you see in it?
EWP: Nevermind the first question re: Tan.
I want to lynch: Rai, Tanarin
I’m okay lynching: Bur, Wildfire
I’d rather not lynch: Cantripmancer, DCIII, Arianrhod, Sir Karn, Tammy
I refuse to lynch: Wheat, Cythare, KCC, TMCT, HP.
Null: Rhand, Kamikaze, Hans, BlackVise, LnG, Killjoy
The voting and revoting in one post feels forced.
My thoughts on Bur are clear: I am voting him (or was before HP got lynched anyways)
I don't have a read on Rai.
@BV, except if I was scum, why would I softclaim? Why would I out more info than needed, when I could just sit back and see how things go? Personally, I don't think I have seen scum softclaim early in a game, because it forces them into a corner later. They may live "a while", but not until endgame, which is usually the goal of scum.
@iRebel: I basically had fullclaimed at that point. I guess I should've stated as much, though.
@Tammy: some of this is Salvation meta. I'm assuming that you're from 'scum (low post count, friends with Hooker/Nati?). 'Round these parts, miller isn't a terribly uncommon claim, and whenever there's a claimed miller, they're almost always vigged N1. That's probably one reason why you see the discrepancy between how HP's claim / my claim unfolded.
Unvote. Vote BlackVise.
KCC's case is reasonable, but I've never been good at reading Tanarin early and don't want to blindly follow her on this. I'd rather leave Tanarin to his own devices for a Day or two and then revisit him in the midgame when his alignment is more obvious.
I don't know exactly what Rhand and Wildfire are seeing re@Bur, but I can get behind some pressure there. The way he reacted to the claim was definitely unusual.
I'm not liking how you put Bur and BV together but only explain the BV read.
Why do you think Bur is town?
Are you fishing for why I think Bur is town?
-I'm being sarcastic there, of course, but hopefully the point is obvious: it's not really suspicious for someone to ask why a read was posted without being even slightly supported.
vote Bur
* The fishing for why people say Arian is town is ugly: when I said that I saw something from my role pm, he should've dropped it instead of asking Wheat the same question again. It's no good to out what now, while there is still possible scum to catch with this.
Just because you hinted at having a reason for your read doesn't automatically mean that every one else who reads Arian as town is doing so for the same reason. -And I can tell you, whatever you're seeing there, it's certainly not some fundamental aspect of the town role PM, because one of the first things I did when I finally received my role, was to go back to that discussion to see if I could figure out what was going on -and I don't have a clue what you could be seeing in there. Well... I do have one idea, but I'm discounting that with fingers crossed for now, because that would be such a terrible assumption, that I can't imagine you'd be making it.
* The fence-sitty post #51 doesn't sit well with me.
And this is just crazy. Why should anyone have a strong read one way or the other 51 posts into the game? Especially in regards to a claimed miller! Bur's cautious, skeptical view of the situation is exactly what he should be feeling!
And to finally answer your question, I actually really like the questions Bur has been asking. Him trying to get you and WG to support your reads is anything but a point against him, and later, I felt that when he turned his attention to Rai and Cantrip, those where good signs of actual scum hunting. And to a smaller extent, I feel like his thoughts regarding the HP situation were more likely town (such as being concerned about whether we lose a lynch in testing).
Perhaps gambit wasn't quite the word to use, but I figured that HP may be claiming to avoid being lynched right now. Her post about potential repercussions then seemed as thought she realized that her choice of role would actually have the complete opposite effect and was trying to backtrack.
No, gambit is a fine word to use for this, but... can you tell me why you thought she might want to do that; I mean, can you explain what you thought her motivation might be for wanting to "claim to avoid being lynched right now."
I think most of the people ave posted so far. as other have said, there is no point in not testing HP's claim. I said I wanted to see more posters before I voted for the test lynch of HP. This is what is taking the center of discussion and after HP's claim is tested, we will be able to move on.
I think most of the people ave posted so far. as other have said, there is no point in not testing HP's claim. I said I wanted to see more posters before I voted for the test lynch of HP. This is what is taking the center of discussion and after HP's claim is tested, we will be able to move on.
I say lynch HP and see what happens. Vote HP.
I feel like me, Wheat, and Cythare are all the same person
Yeah, if HP's not telling the truth and we go to Night, we'll still have some discussion rather than a brainless stream of "let's test the IC claim" statements.
But that discussion's already been poisoned by the reveal itself, no?
Discussion on that topic, maybe, but discussion in general, no.
i don't even
I mean, I get the distinction there, but if HP wasn't telling the truth, he would have been scum, and then he would have been what? Throwing himself under the bus to hurry us to Night?
I think most of the people ave posted so far. as other have said, there is no point in not testing HP's claim. I said I wanted to see more posters before I voted for the test lynch of HP. This is what is taking the center of discussion and after HP's claim is tested, we will be able to move on.
I say lynch HP and see what happens. Vote HP.
... what made you change your mind? Earlier you seemed to have no hurry to check HP's claim and now you suddenly want to get over with this...
I never changed my mind. I said I thought we needed to wait until everyone post and then lynch. At the time of my post, all but one person had posted, so my condition for voting was triggered. I weighed the options internally, and decided the disadvantages of night shenanigans was worth finding out if HP was gambiting on claiming the role.
The way you felt the need to explain your vote felt so scummy.
* The fence-sitty post #51 doesn't sit well with me.
And this is just crazy. Why should anyone have a strong read one way or the other 51 posts into the game? Especially in regards to a claimed miller! Bur's cautious, skeptical view of the situation is exactly what he should be feeling!
And to finally answer your question, I actually really like the questions Bur has been asking. Him trying to get you and WG to support your reads is anything but a point against him, and later, I felt that when he turned his attention to Rai and Cantrip, those where good signs of actual scum hunting. And to a smaller extent, I feel like his thoughts regarding the HP situation were more likely town (such as being concerned about whether we lose a lynch in testing).
Yes and no. It's unlikely that someone would have a strong opinion about another player at this stage, but the language that was used stood out. "I'll give her a pass, for now" is a really scummy way to say "I don't have a read on her". It comes across as an attempt to try to appeal to other players' townreads while leaving a door open to pursue it later rather than just saying "it's too early for me to have a read on her (him)".
Re: the questions Bur has been asking:
-Clarifying TMCT is a cat
-2x "elaborate on Arian read"
-Why would HP vote for herself
-2x clarification on HP's ability
-Question to Rai uses an incorrect premise
-Question to Cantrip is a rehash of what has already been asked
192 in particular, the sarcasm at the front of the post feels so... unnecessary and fake.
Then she goes on to say "well I checked MY TOWN ROLE PM and I don't see the same thing as you."
- Not only is she saying in big bold letters "HEY EVERYONE I HAVE A TOWN ROLE PM! BELIEVE ME!" but she also goes on to cast doubt on Rhand and makes it sound like she thinks Rhand is scummy, just after acknowledging and saying "I know you looked at your town role pm and saw something, but I looked at my town role pm and didn't." - the key point being, she makes Rhand out to be scummy after noting and believing that Rhand looked at a town role pm.
Re: the questions Bur has been asking:
-Clarifying TMCT is a cat
-2x "elaborate on Arian read"
-Why would HP vote for herself
-2x clarification on HP's ability
-Question to Rai uses an incorrect premise
-Question to Cantrip is a rehash of what has already been asked
None of those seem particularly compelling to me.
But overall, they point towards an underlying mindset that is more likely town. Bur's questions tend to move the game forward, in the sense that the answers they seek are adding info and clarity to the game, rather than distracting or manipulating. Even the simple question to TMCT show this. If Bur is scum, then he knows TMCT's alignment. If TMCT is also scum, the question makes no sense, as the last thing he'd want to do is draw attention to the fact that TMCT could be faking (whether it was a genuine restriction or not). And if TMCT is town in that scenario, Bur is more likely to just assume TMCT is doing what he's doing for legitimate reasons. Bur's question to TMCT there isn't casting suspicion on him or anything like that, it's simply clearing the situation up. And for a scum-Bur, determining if TMCT has a real restriction is unlikely to be a high priority (it's not helping his wincon at all), and clearing up the confusion around it is probably one of the last things he'd want to do. Scum tend to enjoy that sort of distraction and chaos, and don't tend to be so quick to attempt clearing it all up.
she also goes on to cast doubt on Rhand and makes it sound like she thinks Rhand is scummy
I don't know where you're seeing this, but I have a mild town read on Rhand. -I don't agree with his reasoning, sure, but his reaction to Bur makes sense if Rhand has some role-related info for thinking Arian is town. There's nothing there to make me think he's scum.
Re: the questions Bur has been asking:
-Clarifying TMCT is a cat
-2x "elaborate on Arian read"
-Why would HP vote for herself
-2x clarification on HP's ability
-Question to Rai uses an incorrect premise
-Question to Cantrip is a rehash of what has already been asked
None of those seem particularly compelling to me.
But overall, they point towards an underlying mindset that is more likely town. Bur's questions tend to move the game forward, in the sense that the answers they seek are adding info and clarity to the game, rather than distracting or manipulating. Even the simple question to TMCT show this. If Bur is scum, then he knows TMCT's alignment. If TMCT is also scum, the question makes no sense, as the last thing he'd want to do is draw attention to the fact that TMCT could be faking (whether it was a genuine restriction or not). And if TMCT is town in that scenario, Bur is more likely to just assume TMCT is doing what he's doing for legitimate reasons. Bur's question to TMCT there isn't casting suspicion on him or anything like that, it's simply clearing the situation up. And for a scum-Bur, determining if TMCT has a real restriction is unlikely to be a high priority (it's not helping his wincon at all), and clearing up the confusion around it is probably one of the last things he'd want to do. Scum tend to enjoy that sort of distraction and chaos, and don't tend to be so quick to attempt clearing it all up.
I don't agree with this. They look to me like low-hanging fruit that give the appearance of attempting to move the game forward and/or put info/clarity into the thread that isn't particularly relevant. I agree that Bur's question to TMCT indicates that it's unlikely they are scum together, but I don't think it precludes Bur himself being scum. It's paramount to a scum player to mimic scumhunting so that he/she can avoid being lynched, and I think that asking questions that are relatively low-impact, despite adding info to the thread, are the types of questions that a scum player would want to get out ahead on. At this point, I don't see the mindset that you're attributing to his questions.
I don't agree with this. They look to me like low-hanging fruit that give the appearance of attempting to move the game forward and/or put info/clarity into the thread that isn't particularly relevant. I agree that Bur's question to TMCT indicates that it's unlikely they are scum together, but I don't think it precludes Bur himself being scum. It's paramount to a scum player to mimic scumhunting so that he/she can avoid being lynched, and I think that asking questions that are relatively low-impact, despite adding info to the thread, are the types of questions that a scum player would want to get out ahead on. At this point, I don't see the mindset that you're attributing to his questions.
I guess we can agree to disagree then. -Don't get me wrong, I certainly haven't seen anything that precludes Bur from being scum, but I'm absolutely not applying pressure in that direction based on what I've seen so far. I feel like Tan and Rai are much better options right now.
Please explain further. I haven't seen Tammy at all before.
*puts on my professor glasses*
Part of this is the divide between MTGS and Mafiascum--by and large, this site is all about interaction analysis and generally downplays the intangible, emotional game. At mafiascum, the opposite is true and interaction analysis is by and large gone by the wayside(some would say this is a reason for the increasingly lower skill level there vs here, and I guess I don't disagree). Anyways, Tammy is known as one of the most 'obvtown' players on the site--a lot of time games there devolve into 'I'm obvtown' 'no you, I'm more obvtown'. Well, Tammy is the best at that slapfight. And, for the most part, people give her a freepass due to that.
The joke being she is actually really good at manipulating that(the lady has not lost a scum game in two years over at least three websites!). But, anyways, we spoke at large quite a bit over the last month, and, well, I figured she would approach this game a lot more methodical than scatterbrained. And, for the most part, her first two posts show off the sort of methodicalness I expected in a context, she honed in on the same things I did(see: Killjoy), and was generally expected as town.
Please explain further. I haven't seen Tammy at all before.
*puts on my professor glasses*
Part of this is the divide between MTGS and Mafiascum--by and large, this site is all about interaction analysis and generally downplays the intangible, emotional game. At mafiascum, the opposite is true and interaction analysis is by and large gone by the wayside(some would say this is a reason for the increasingly lower skill level there vs here, and I guess I don't disagree). Anyways, Tammy is known as one of the most 'obvtown' players on the site--a lot of time games there devolve into 'I'm obvtown' 'no you, I'm more obvtown'. Well, Tammy is the best at that slapfight. And, for the most part, people give her a freepass due to that.
The joke being she is actually really good at manipulating that(the lady has not lost a scum game in two years over at least three websites!). But, anyways, we spoke at large quite a bit over the last month, and, well, I figured she would approach this game a lot more methodical than scatterbrained. And, for the most part, her first two posts show off the sort of methodicalness I expected in a context, she honed in on the same things I did(see: Killjoy), and was generally expected as town.
Sounds reasonable. I've more than enough scumreads so I'll look elsewhere for now.
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I disagree. Sure, running naked through the thread screaming "I'M MAFIA, KILL ME!" might seriously rouse some suspicion in mafia, it's not as hard to pull of as you make it sound. I admit getting yourself lynched in a single day might not be always easy to do, but doing so in the longer run is feasible. (I'm speaking out of experience here.)
And are you sure that mafia wouldn't take the chance if they are handed down a mislynch on a silver plate? (They did take it when it happened D1 in CCMVIII).
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I never changed my mind. I said I thought we needed to wait until everyone post and then lynch. At the time of my post, all but one person had posted, so my condition for voting was triggered. I weighed the options internally, and decided the disadvantages of night shenanigans was worth finding out if HP was gambiting on claiming the role.
-to confirm alignment and info. BTW, had you claimed only one of your abilities (either, just not both) that would have been much more useful, but a standard IC is still good, so whatever.
After that is dealt with, my vote is going on Tan, who I'm getting huge scum vibes from in literally every single post. Rai, I'm suspicious of as well, but less so.
As for the other topics of discussion, I'm leaning fairly town on Bur, and also slightly town on BlackVise (I feel like a lot of people are misreading or perhaps just not completely processing post 77, but I think there are points in his favor, rather than against, in there).
@Tammy: I don't think HP was serious when suggesting possible downsides to the role; I feel like HP was just underestimating the usefulness of those abilities and was looking for unnecessary explanations for why it existed. There's no reason not to confirm HP here.
*Note: Though I'm leaning town on both Tammy and much more so HP, in the incredibly unlikely event that HP somehow flips scum here, kill Tammy immediately.
Killjoy (2)- Bur, HookerPunch
Bur (1) - Rhand
Cythare (1) - LnGrrrR
HookerPunch (11) - KamikazeArchon, DCIII, Sir Karn, Cythare, TMCT, Wildfire, Arianrhod, WheatGrinder, Rai Kerensky, Hansanator, KittyCupcake (Lynch)
LnGrrrR (1) - BlackVise
BlackVise (1) - Cantripmancer
The crowd surrounds HookerPunch, drops a noose around her neck, ties it to the new Promenade second level railing, and throws her off the ledge.
Unfortunately for the crowd, she failed to fall. While hovering there, she shouted out "Q! Why are you helping me?"
A voice filters out from thin air, saying "I was just beginning to like you, Jean-Luc. You had such potential. All good things must come to an end... but not right now." In a flash of light, HookerPunch disappears from her would-be final hanging place and reappears on the ledge.
HookerPunch (Jean-Luc Picard, Town Enterprise Captain) has NOT been lynched. Votes are reset to zero & Day 1 continues.
21 alive, 11 to lynch.
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https://twitch.tv/SwiftorCasino (yes, my team and I run live dealer games for the baldman using his channel points as chips)
Vote HookerPunch
@Tammy: Your post #126 is the exact reason why we need to test out HP now. The longer she is unconfirmed, the more scum can take the opportunity to WIFOM us out of it. In fact you then even go on to say you are fine testing said claim, yet you don't put your vote where your mouth is and vote HP? Your action, or lack of it in this case is certainly against what you are saying.
Now on to the part about the miller claim. Yes not a lot of people jumpped on him, but there is a good reason you are forgetting. The claimed miller is likely not living too long. If the vig does not trust him, he is going to be shot, and if he turns out scummy, he will be lynched. I dunno how much experience you have with millers, but so far things have been going to SOP in that regard.
At least things were going to SOP until you decide to ring in and say he is likely town after making a whole paragraph about why he could be scum. Once again, it seems in this case one paragraph counteracts the other as far as the vibe I am getting on how you feel. Why did you feel the need to scold the town about the miller? Why not just say you feel he is town and why you feel he is town?
Finally, I know it was addressed earlier, but why the aversion to Killjoy's posts about HP's claim? The whole point of mafia is analyzing actions and reactions, yet here in essence you say we should not do that? I get what you say about how traps catch town as much as scum, but it is a whole different beast when it comes to a wagon analysis (Which is what a lot of mid games break down to.)
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This is unconvincing, at best. I wouldn't ever make any assumptions about the scum roles based solely on a miller claim.
This, however, is the much more likely result of a miller claim in the event that there is some relationship between the scum and miller roles.
@bolded: Ewwww
Basically, I believe this quote is completely true if you switch the words town and scum at the end.
This feels off. It'd be expected for a townie to be skeptical of the lack of name, but the way he approaches this question feels wrong, almost excited about the situation.
Tan, can you explain what you mean by "working itself out?"
I'm not liking the tone of this. Asking this question to Bur is fine, but it's far more hostile than what is needed, or than what even makes sense.
This feels a little artificial. I can't imagine why this level of enthusiasm would exist here.
And then, just like that, no steam ahead. I mean, I can understand reconsidering an idea, and even specifically moving from being ready to lynch HP to being willing to wait. But this just feels like he's so eager to please, willing to follow along to blend in, especially after the "full steam ahead" comment.
If either Tan or Rai flips scum, this post needs to be closely looked at later, because if Tan isn't coaching Rai here, then I have no idea what the point of this post is. Tan seems to be contradicting Rai, but he's not showing any of the pressure or hostility he's shown towards other players.
So, now that HP is confirmed:
Vote: Tan
So, with this in mind Tan, can you explain why exactly you jumped on Bur earlier in the game for looking into why players were reacting to Arianrhod as they were?
Should I post spiderman now?
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Oh, the IC role I'm perfectly comfortable with. The lynching as a trigger was what I thought was weird as there really doesn't seem to be a purpose for it, which is why I wondered if there was a flavor reason for it. Once in a Rocky Horror game, Janet just had to post a phrase Toucha Toucha Touch me or something like that as the trigger and the mod confirmed he was an IC; however, in turn he lost his ability to be watched once he became confirmed town.
Waffles steals your ball of yarn.
#22, Tanarin: Agree with the full claim.
#23, LnG: Try to explain. I’m curious.
#26, Rhand: Probably.
#30, Wildfire: I hate this post with a passion. There’s no point to it; it’s a “busy post”. Like you’re trying to be active, but not being active.
#33, Tanarin: Something about this just… rubs me wrong. Do you agree or disagree that Wildfire’s #30 was terrible and why?
#34, Wildfire: Same as #30. I do not like this post at all.
#38, HP: I’ll buy it.
#51, Bur: This answer to Tanarin was wholly unsatisfying. If you would have done the same thing, shouldn’t you have a generally positive opinion towards Arianrhod? What were you hoping to gain/figure out by asking others how they reached their conclusion on him?
Vote: Bur
#60, Killjoy: Agreed.
#69, Rai: Terrible post is terrible. It’s just filler nonsense.
#71, DCIII: Why does Tanarin’s 67 feel self-conscious? Agree re: Rai
#77, BlackVise: This is your first post and you elected to not comment on the many other things that’ve been going on? Not a fan of this post.
#89, DCIII: iRebel thanks this post. Add Bur and Wildfire to the list of early scum reads.
#90, Cantrip: Why the random arbitrary statistical figure? If its “probably the right play” to test HPs claim, then why does it matter when it happens?
#96, Cythare: /barn.
#107, Cythare re: #104, Karn: /barn
#110, Wildfire: How is this anything but hairsplitting?
#113, Wildfire: Enlighten us.
#115, Wildfire: I’m confused by this post. Can you explain what you were trying to say because my head spins whenever I read it.
#123, Rai: Well that’s your second awful post.
Unvote; Vote: Rai
#124, Hans: Same as BlackVise… your first post and you have zero to say about anything that’s been going on?
#126, Tammy: I agree on testing HP claim; I don’t much see a point in testing it toDay but if it’s going to be a distraction then I’m okay with it.
@BlackVise, LnG, Hans, Rhand, Killjoy, Kamikaze: What do you think of Bur and Rai?
#159, KCC: I agree that Tanarin is giving weird vibes but why do you dislike him more than Rai? When I look at #77 I don’t see anything particularly good or useful from it, and that 77 posts in there was plenty to comment on.
What points of favour do you see in it?
EWP: Nevermind the first question re: Tan.
I want to lynch: Rai, Tanarin
I’m okay lynching: Bur, Wildfire
I’d rather not lynch: Cantripmancer, DCIII, Arianrhod, Sir Karn, Tammy
I refuse to lynch: Wheat, Cythare, KCC, TMCT, HP.
Null: Rhand, Kamikaze, Hans, BlackVise, LnG, Killjoy
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
I like KCC's case. A lot.
Unvote, Vote: Tanarin
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Depends on the mafia. Not everyone behaves in the same or predictable manner.
Crap. I'm sorry; I'm still learning this board. This is what I was replying to.
Something strange is happening pertaining to:
I believe the following player is town:
I am suspicious of:
I believe the following player is scum:
I get good vibes from:
We should listen to:
We should ignore:
We should lynch:
I dislike the actions taken by:
I like the actions taken by:
Does anyone know where the following player is:
How do we solve a problem like:
This player is weird but not scummy:
I have no idea what do think about:
The borg cultists are upon us! This is their leader:
The borg cultists are upon us! This player is among them, but not their leader:
Lord in Heaven! It's the serial killer! He's named:
This player is a neutral but not anti-town:
This player is an anti-town neutral not fitting prior descriptions:
Are you daft? Why would you lynch this player, for he is a town power role:
I don't want to, but let's lynch:
I performed a night action (negative) on:
I performed a night action (positive) on:
Rhand
KamikazeArchon
Hansanator
BlackVise
Tanarin
Wildfire393
LnGrrrR
Cantripmancer
Rai Kerensky
Kittycupcake
Tammy
Bur
Wheat_Grinder
The Most Curious Thing
Arianrhod
Sir Karn
DCIII
HookerPunch
Cythare
iRebel
Killjoy
I was roleblocked
I took no action
My action was successful
We should not be hasty to lynch
We should lynch soon
Check the deadline!
But let it wait for another Day.
And it absolutely must happen toDay!
I am a:
vanilla town
information role
protection role
killing role
other role that doesn't fit as information, protection, or killing.
I refuse to claim.
borg cultist
scum
Help me!
Don't you buddy me!
WIFOM
TMCT then proceeds to say nothing.*
Re: Bur, not a fan. I didnt particularly like his questioning of why people thought Arian was town. I think Rai is just being doofy.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
He then nudges KCC's foot and points his head toward Bur, letting out a meow. While waiting for a response he cautiously brushes up against her, tail ever-so-slightly tensed, and stares at Tanarin with a cocked head.*
Did you not finish reading the thread when you posted this?
Okay two things. First, so? I don't put down a vote until I'm sure that's what I want to do in the first place. Second, quoi? Did you read
my entire post or were you so in a rush to make a dumb point that you didn't notice that at the very bottom of the post I said I'd vote Nati but that would be the hammer and I'd rather wait for her to come in and talk just in case something did happen?
Seriously, did you just read every other line of my post? I mean I understand that I tend to ramble and I suppose it's possible you got interested in that same ball of yarn TMCT did, but I literally do not know how you can come to this conclusion or are asking me the questions you are.
I never once gave a reason why Arian could be scum and don't think he is. (I had one little rabbit hole through out, which as I said was a note for if either of the people I mentioned did flip scum.) The only thing I did say was the scum do fake claim miller. I never said that people should be jumping on him for the miller claim. What I said was I didn't understand why people accepted that claim without batting an eye, which is an easy fake claim for scum to make, and then call out gambit on Nati's claim, which is a much more unlikely fake claim for scum to make. It doesn't make sense to be skeptical about one while accepting the other and I want to look back at who did so and why.
What makes you think a claimed miller isn't going to live very long? I've seen millers make it to end game and seen scum win in part based on the oh scum wouldn't fake claim miller nonsense. And why shouldn't people be critical about claimed roles because maybe a vig will take care of it if the vig doesn't trust them? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
I never said we shouldn't analyze actions and reactions, and considering my whole point about the reactions to each of the claims I didn't even insinuate it. I'm not going to continue to reiterate my points on this though as I feel like my interaction with Bur should answer any questions you might have about my point concerning killjoy.
I feel like you saw wildfire say he wanted to lynch me and smelled blood in the water as this just does not feel like an honest interpretation to my post.
Hmm... I'm not sure I can answer this clearly without putting words in BV's mouth. In which case, this is probably important anyway, as well as being the best way to respond:
I know this is a little less relevant now that HP is confirmed, but BV, what type of gambit did you have in mind here (and please be very specific)?
*KCC reassuringly pets TMCT*
I don't think you need to be afraid of Bur; I've looked him over closely, and he seems friendly. I understand why Bur is getting the attention he is getting, but underneath, I like his questions and I feel like his attention is in the right place. Tan, on the other hand, you should feel free to use as a scratching post.
@Tammy: I completely agree that Tan's points against you look insincere.
KCC's case is good and I agree about Tan (and his response to Rai as well that KCC called out).
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@iRebel - Tan's post felt self-conscious to me because he unvoted HP in response to Killjoy saying that he'd have preferred that we get more content into the thread prior to testing HP's claim. He recognized that it would be hard to get much analysis not already skewed by HP's claim, but still unvoted in response to Killjoy's comment despite the fact that HP was nowhere near the lynch threshol. It struck me as being overly conscious of what scrutiny his vote might take/being overly agreeable with Killjoy's concern despite not thinking there was any merit to the concern.
@Cythare - I think the missing out on RVS tell is a pretty good one, especially in light of other scummy things. It's knowing that you're "supposed" to RVS but knowing you're at a point in the game where it's not relevant, but feeling the need to comment on it prior to posting.
His follow up to LnGr about HP (that she could be scum trying to put off having us vote her) doesn't make sense in light of wanting to wait to test the claim, either.
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Don't like Cantrip's "why do you assume that HP is gambiting scum" line. Don't like the point it tries to hint at/imply about Wildfire, and also the logic that it uses around the likelihood of HP lying about his role as town was weak. I also think that the "asking people their mafia experience" tell is a pretty good one as well.
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There's something about the Tammy/Tan interaction that I don't really care for but I'm having trouble putting my finger on. Something about the way in which she's approaching him that says "I'm suspicious of you" but doesn't really seem to be committed to it. It's like... it feels like an obligation to debate him - and the conclusion is a pretty damning one (that he wasn't making an honest case on her and smelled blood in the water after the Wildfire post) but doesn't follow it up with a vote which, conservative about voting or no, is a conclusion I'd expect to follow with a vote. Also, in a 21 person game, one post from Wildfire is enough to smell blood in the water? That part of the conclusion feels contrived and like an add-on considering she could have just said that his case wasn't honest.
Tan
Rai
Black Vise, Cantrip
Tammy?
That's where I'm at right now.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Either way, we're all gonna burn
There were really two options here: Gambiting scum or town telling the truth. If the latter is the case (and it appears it was), we lost nothing by testing the claim. Hence why gambiting town is the only one I addressed here.
As annoying as mass-quote walls of text are, this is even more annoying. I'd rather not basically re-read the entire thread to address your concern with my posts. If you have specific questions on posts, please quote the posts for context. A number tells me nothing.
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I don't see it with Rai either.
About Bur:
vote Bur
This is town!Wildfire
Nothing else to say at all???
Like I already said, he told something I also have in my role PM when claiming. Is that not enough?
The only thing you say about her that's scummy is that she looks like the buddy of someone you think is town. Why does that even come near enough for a "IGMEOY"?
How is this line of questioning going to tell you anything about Tammy's alignment?
I'm not liking how you put Bur and BV together but only explain the BV read.
Why do you think Bur is town?
I like KCC's case on Tanarin.
The voting and revoting in one post feels forced.
My thoughts on Bur are clear: I am voting him (or was before HP got lynched anyways)
I don't have a read on Rai.
I have a feeling I know what you're talking about here. In fact, Vote Bur because of it.
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@Tammy: some of this is Salvation meta. I'm assuming that you're from 'scum (low post count, friends with Hooker/Nati?). 'Round these parts, miller isn't a terribly uncommon claim, and whenever there's a claimed miller, they're almost always vigged N1. That's probably one reason why you see the discrepancy between how HP's claim / my claim unfolded.
Unvote. Vote BlackVise.
KCC's case is reasonable, but I've never been good at reading Tanarin early and don't want to blindly follow her on this. I'd rather leave Tanarin to his own devices for a Day or two and then revisit him in the midgame when his alignment is more obvious.
I don't know exactly what Rhand and Wildfire are seeing re@Bur, but I can get behind some pressure there. The way he reacted to the claim was definitely unusual.
Tammy, can you please press the enter button a few times while you're writing your novelas.
-I'm being sarcastic there, of course, but hopefully the point is obvious: it's not really suspicious for someone to ask why a read was posted without being even slightly supported.
Just because you hinted at having a reason for your read doesn't automatically mean that every one else who reads Arian as town is doing so for the same reason. -And I can tell you, whatever you're seeing there, it's certainly not some fundamental aspect of the town role PM, because one of the first things I did when I finally received my role, was to go back to that discussion to see if I could figure out what was going on -and I don't have a clue what you could be seeing in there. Well... I do have one idea, but I'm discounting that with fingers crossed for now, because that would be such a terrible assumption, that I can't imagine you'd be making it.
And this is just crazy. Why should anyone have a strong read one way or the other 51 posts into the game? Especially in regards to a claimed miller! Bur's cautious, skeptical view of the situation is exactly what he should be feeling!
And to finally answer your question, I actually really like the questions Bur has been asking. Him trying to get you and WG to support your reads is anything but a point against him, and later, I felt that when he turned his attention to Rai and Cantrip, those where good signs of actual scum hunting. And to a smaller extent, I feel like his thoughts regarding the HP situation were more likely town (such as being concerned about whether we lose a lynch in testing).
No, gambit is a fine word to use for this, but... can you tell me why you thought she might want to do that; I mean, can you explain what you thought her motivation might be for wanting to "claim to avoid being lynched right now."
I mean, I get the distinction there, but if HP wasn't telling the truth, he would have been scum, and then he would have been what? Throwing himself under the bus to hurry us to Night?
The way you felt the need to explain your vote felt so scummy.
Thanks for the content. Want to share?
I still want to Vote: Rai
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Re: the questions Bur has been asking:
-Clarifying TMCT is a cat
-2x "elaborate on Arian read"
-Why would HP vote for herself
-2x clarification on HP's ability
-Question to Rai uses an incorrect premise
-Question to Cantrip is a rehash of what has already been asked
None of those seem particularly compelling to me.
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Then she goes on to say "well I checked MY TOWN ROLE PM and I don't see the same thing as you."
- Not only is she saying in big bold letters "HEY EVERYONE I HAVE A TOWN ROLE PM! BELIEVE ME!" but she also goes on to cast doubt on Rhand and makes it sound like she thinks Rhand is scummy, just after acknowledging and saying "I know you looked at your town role pm and saw something, but I looked at my town role pm and didn't." - the key point being, she makes Rhand out to be scummy after noting and believing that Rhand looked at a town role pm.
Unvote.
Vote: Kitty
But overall, they point towards an underlying mindset that is more likely town. Bur's questions tend to move the game forward, in the sense that the answers they seek are adding info and clarity to the game, rather than distracting or manipulating. Even the simple question to TMCT show this. If Bur is scum, then he knows TMCT's alignment. If TMCT is also scum, the question makes no sense, as the last thing he'd want to do is draw attention to the fact that TMCT could be faking (whether it was a genuine restriction or not). And if TMCT is town in that scenario, Bur is more likely to just assume TMCT is doing what he's doing for legitimate reasons. Bur's question to TMCT there isn't casting suspicion on him or anything like that, it's simply clearing the situation up. And for a scum-Bur, determining if TMCT has a real restriction is unlikely to be a high priority (it's not helping his wincon at all), and clearing up the confusion around it is probably one of the last things he'd want to do. Scum tend to enjoy that sort of distraction and chaos, and don't tend to be so quick to attempt clearing it all up.
I don't know where you're seeing this, but I have a mild town read on Rhand. -I don't agree with his reasoning, sure, but his reaction to Bur makes sense if Rhand has some role-related info for thinking Arian is town. There's nothing there to make me think he's scum.
Please explain further. I haven't seen Tammy at all before.
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Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Part of this is the divide between MTGS and Mafiascum--by and large, this site is all about interaction analysis and generally downplays the intangible, emotional game. At mafiascum, the opposite is true and interaction analysis is by and large gone by the wayside(some would say this is a reason for the increasingly lower skill level there vs here, and I guess I don't disagree). Anyways, Tammy is known as one of the most 'obvtown' players on the site--a lot of time games there devolve into 'I'm obvtown' 'no you, I'm more obvtown'. Well, Tammy is the best at that slapfight. And, for the most part, people give her a freepass due to that.
The joke being she is actually really good at manipulating that(the lady has not lost a scum game in two years over at least three websites!). But, anyways, we spoke at large quite a bit over the last month, and, well, I figured she would approach this game a lot more methodical than scatterbrained. And, for the most part, her first two posts show off the sort of methodicalness I expected in a context, she honed in on the same things I did(see: Killjoy), and was generally expected as town.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
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Sounds reasonable. I've more than enough scumreads so I'll look elsewhere for now.