Interrupting my read-through to say: it's good manners to use a spoiler tag when you're quoting a post in excess of 50 lines. Seriously. It's annoying and makes the page full and saying a snippy line after does NOT mean you're contributing large / lengthy posts when you're just quoting one (looking at you Iso for #147)
1) Judge lynch D1 is an incredibly poor decision. With scum!Judge it means scum can effectively get a free perfect kill AND they can attempt to get a holy ESPECIALLY as someone who is trying to play off the radar would be a prime holy suspect for scum and it's easily justifiably to judge them as scum!judge
Additionally, judge lynching completely removes any semblance of vote train analysis. On top of all the other PURE BAD, it's an encouragement for all players to not use their votes today and encourages apathy due to players feeling like they can't do anything today with the exception of the judge. We are 100% lynching today.
2) Grave-digger should claim today. It's incredibly strong for scum to have a grave-digger due to the ability to fake-claim stuff especially early on in the game. This game also doesn't have a jester or other mechanic to slow down the early game allowing scum to utilize grave digger. Scum!apprentice would know who town grave digger is anyways if they pick grave digger. Town grave digger is a sub-par role to kill for scum, so it's relatively safe for them to out.
3) Kinda hard to remember who's who since I've never played with all of you before. Thus far I have a strong town-read on Generic and a strong scum-read on Antsy
Antsy -> Forced opening post, used a smiley (soft scum tell), OMGUS'd Generic, didn't push at all on Generic after (called Generic scum to doubt cast from my skim-read-analysis), hasnt really done anything really active beyond engaging with Generic (which he stopped doing after calling Generic scum)
Vote: Antsy
2) Grave-digger should claim today. It's incredibly strong for scum to have a grave-digger due to the ability to fake-claim stuff especially early on in the game. This game also doesn't have a jester or other mechanic to slow down the early game allowing scum to utilize grave digger. Scum!apprentice would know who town grave digger is anyways if they pick grave digger. Town grave digger is a sub-par role to kill for scum, so it's relatively safe for them to out.
Quick question: Have you played this with Shenanigans as a Night 1 unlock or a Night 2 unlock? If the former, you may not be familiar with the current game theory threads posted by Taredas stating that claiming GD on D1 is pretty much useless now. If you have played though with Shenanigans as a N1 unlock and actually had GD claim D1, mind posting a completed game showing this so we can see what happened?
2) Grave-digger should claim today. It's incredibly strong for scum to have a grave-digger due to the ability to fake-claim stuff especially early on in the game. This game also doesn't have a jester or other mechanic to slow down the early game allowing scum to utilize grave digger. Scum!apprentice would know who town grave digger is anyways if they pick grave digger. Town grave digger is a sub-par role to kill for scum, so it's relatively safe for them to out.
Quick question: Have you played this with Shenanigans as a Night 1 unlock or a Night 2 unlock? If the former, you may not be familiar with the current game theory threads posted by Taredas stating that claiming GD on D1 is pretty much useless now. If you have played though with Shenanigans as a N1 unlock and actually had GD claim D1, mind posting a completed game showing this so we can see what happened?
Why does Shenanigans Night unlock make a difference? The only games I've played in, the first witch to die gains the ability to use shenanigans once at their discretion, meaning it only matters beginning on the first night any witches are dead. I don't see how it bears implications on the grave-digger claiming today or not.
Hi friends! I'll read up tomorrow, I basically found out this game existed a few minutes ago, and WH is my favorite so I sort of just. Let myself dive into it.
Also wow the Cards system is different. This'll be fun.
@AE: As for your question on how inactivity helps scum, well I am sure I can find millions of examples. The base of my argument though is the fact that it is always way easier for scum to blend in on an inactive game vs an active game. If a game is really inactive, scum can basically float by. IN an active game though, scum has to try and either keep up with the rest of the game, or at minimum try and provide as much content as possible in as few posts as possible while still looking town. Anybody here who has played a game as scum (Which I am assuming is everyone at this point,) knows that trying to post content that seems town on a constant basis is not easy unless a lot of mislynch targets present themselves.
Hm...okay. There's an easy answer to the question of why a wagon is stalling, so I'm interested to hear what you're looking for if/when Tar answers you.
As for my interest in AE's read on you, he blamed his not doing anything on waiting for the replacements. Once you replaced in and posted, I asked him for his read on you because if his reason for not doing anything was legitimate, he would have been attempting to extract a read on you. Which he clearly hasn't, as he has you listed as null.
So...
Okay.
I don't know what to think of AE yet. Last time I said I had him figured out he slipped by me as scum. I'm having trouble disassociating my read on him from my conflicting meta reads on him...I'm going to come back to this when there aren't more interesting players.
You do that and get back to me. (I'll probably forget, so feel free to remind me.) Anyway, who do you consider more interesting right now and why? Sans Generic, of course.
Interrupting my read-through to say: it's good manners to use a spoiler tag when you're quoting a post in excess of 50 lines. Seriously. It's annoying and makes the page full and saying a snippy line after does NOT mean you're contributing large / lengthy posts when you're just quoting one (looking at you Iso for #147)
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@AE: As for your question on how inactivity helps scum, well I am sure I can find millions of examples. The base of my argument though is the fact that it is always way easier for scum to blend in on an inactive game vs an active game. If a game is really inactive, scum can basically float by. IN an active game though, scum has to try and either keep up with the rest of the game, or at minimum try and provide as much content as possible in as few posts as possible while still looking town. Anybody here who has played a game as scum (Which I am assuming is everyone at this point,) knows that trying to post content that seems town on a constant basis is not easy unless a lot of mislynch targets present themselves.
I get all that and it's pretty irrelevant in this game when the deadline has been halted and we're waiting on replacements, no?
Not entirely. Apathy is bad for the town in general. Just because we are waiting on replacements does not mean you can't keep discussing stuff altogether or keep adding content. Sometimes slips happen that require a lynch to happen before replacements can be found.
@Generic
Keep in mind as a new player (to this forum) I could just slide through feigning ignorance to some of those concepts if I were scum. I would absolutely love a judge lynch as scum today, even if the judge were town.
Who here still doesn't want the grave-digger to claim? Because the grave digger should claim
OK, I think the town needs to readdress the GD claim thing. I think maybe citrus is right here and we need to at least look at the possibility of a Gravedigger claim. I know I was against it earlier in the game, but I have re-weighed the arguments and maybe it is for the best for the role to claim after all. From what I have seen/read/gathered, these are the pros and cons of the action in this current setup.
Pros:
1) We get a role out that can really wreck the town if it goes unclaimed until later and happens to be in scum hands.
2) Puts scum in the awkward situation of either having to kill the GD (Which likely means scum have the apprentice set to GD,) using Shenanigans on him (Which is not assured to work as the priest may not check him,) or Leaving him alone (Which is not good should priest actually check him.)
3) If the GD is scum, he is likely to be busted real fast by the Priest.
Cons:
1) Could become a mislynch victim real fast if scum is lynched day 1.
2) Likely locks in the priest to a N1 inspect that could be used elsewhere.
3) We can't fully trust the info from the GD unless we have a random Priest inspect as well at MC time.
I really want others to chime in on this issue next post they make.
Edit: I also noticed the forums lost an entire post I swore I posted addressing this issue to Citrus.
Essence of the post:
I'll look at the game he posted and think about a GD claim some more.
Sorry guys, today's been all over the place and I keep losing focus. I'm probably gonna go through the game again tomorrow.
Also wow, barely any posts in the past 24 hours. Maybe a GD claim will fix that? Get some juices flowing in here? So I have something fresh to look forward to when I'm done slugging through the thread?
(hi, I am the Gravedigger)
For the record, I have played exactly one game of WitchHunt. The majority (if not all) of the players pushed for/were in favor of an early GD claim, and town ended up winning. Yay.
@Tanarin
Yeah, too late. This boat has long since sailed. We're on the open sea now.
1) How about we take into account that Shenanigans is in fact a possibility and cross that bridge when we come to it? Like. If the Priest checks me for scum, it won't be like we didn't know Shenanigans could have happened. We can talk it out like mature adults.
2) Or the Priest could check someone else, and come back to me some other Night if they really want to? Last game the GD was super obv!town so this wasn't really an issue, but. I'm not too worried.
3) Relax. I'm town. Trust me and everything will be alright.
The whole Shenanigans thing really only applies if we actually hit scum on D1. And if we mislynch, then the Angels can Protect me. Fun, fun, fun.
Scum want to know the cards of the dead just as much as town does. How else are they going to know if they nailed the Priest? If I die N1, then you should probably lynch the Apprentice whenever a massclaim goes down and they're still alive.
Also wow, barely any posts in the past 24 hours. Maybe a GD claim will fix that? Get some juices flowing in here? So I have something fresh to look forward to when I'm done slugging through the thread?
(hi, I am the Gravedigger)
For the record, I have played exactly one game of WitchHunt. The majority (if not all) of the players pushed for/were in favor of an early GD claim, and town ended up winning. Yay.
God dammit.
Okay, so what exactly is good about an early Gravedigger claim?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'll let someone who is infinitely smarter than me do the talking for why early GD claim is +town. (Hi, fulcrum!)
The Gravedigger claim in pregame is always optimal, as it allows the GD to drop info as we go, and increases accountability. The method of the claim can also be very helpful in determining their alignment, as it was in this case. The gravedigger, if town, is unlikely to get shot, as scum tend to be more interested in holy hunting and get some use from the gravedigger role info.
And another one:
It's all about accountability. The gravedigger has one of the most influential roles, and there's a 4/13 chance they're scum. By forcing them to claim early on, you have the extra scrutiny on them from the beginning. By making it occur in pregame, you can have the apprentice choose gravedigger in order to out a witch!gravedigger unwilling to come forward and prevent a scum with the apprentice or gravedigger on their team from fakeclaiming and being believed. Further, the gravedigger dropping information every day cuts down on the available fakeclaims for scum. In the past (and by that, I mean on fantasystrike, a site that plays Witchhunt far more often than we do here), gravedigger info, along with the temptation of holy hunting, has proved valuable enough to prevent scum from killing them early on.
If for whatever reason the Priest has to claim (for example), and isn't immediately killed by a scum!LC, the proper course of action is for the BOD to offer themselves to be lynched. Their life is granted to the target upon death, so by the time the NK rolls around, the Priest will already have an extra life.
@Tanarin
Yeah, too late. This boat has long since sailed. We're on the open sea now.
1) How about we take into account that Shenanigans is in fact a possibility and cross that bridge when we come to it? Like. If the Priest checks me for scum, it won't be like we didn't know Shenanigans could have happened. We can talk it out like mature adults.
2) Or the Priest could check someone else, and come back to me some other Night if they really want to? Last game the GD was super obv!town so this wasn't really an issue, but. I'm not too worried.
3) Relax. I'm town. Trust me and everything will be alright.
The whole Shenanigans thing really only applies if we actually hit scum on D1. And if we mislynch, then the Angels can Protect me. Fun, fun, fun.
Scum want to know the cards of the dead just as much as town does. How else are they going to know if they nailed the Priest? If I die N1, then you should probably lynch the Apprentice whenever a massclaim goes down and they're still alive.
OK then, guess no need for further discussion on the GD issue. I didn't even think about the mislynch possibility though, so good point from you.
So, mind posting your reads once you are done with your readthrough? (Or even some prelim reads if you have any of those queued up.)
Like I said, I had a hard time focusing and actually sorting people. And there's the added benefit of only knowing one of you. I'll have more time tomorrow to put my thinking cap on.
Someone asked me how Generic townslipped. He townslipped when he was talking about flips. I expect scum to be very aware of the no-flip nature of the game as it is likely to significantly influence their collective strategy.
Vaimes, could you specifically look at Archmage Eternal and iRebel (now CitricBase)?
Antny, I'm far too self aware to say anything I know would seem scummy when I'm scum.
But then, by suggesting that it means I'm self aware towards what I would and wouldn't say in any given situation.
Logically you really should have looked at why I would suggest tactical. But then again you wouldn't even quantify your issue with my post so you are slipping in my estimations too.
Actually the tactical bit wasn't the part I didn't like. The part that causes me trouble is the fact that you have gone from the "look I solved the game" super strong scumread to not even the weakest townread on the wagon. What exactly did I do to swing round so suddenly?
[quote]3) Kinda hard to remember who's who since I've never played with all of you before. Thus far I have a strong town-read on Generic and a strong scum-read on Antsy
Antsy -> Forced opening post, used a smiley (soft scum tell), OMGUS'd Generic, didn't push at all on Generic after (called Generic scum to doubt cast from my skim-read-analysis), hasnt really done anything really active beyond engaging with Generic (which he stopped doing after calling Generic scum)
Vote: Antsy
A-N-T-N-Y - Just five letters. It's not as if you have to win a spelling bee to get it right.
Also this the worst case against me I've seen in a long while.
Did no one other than me and Generic manage to say anything that left an impression?
OK, now we the GD claimed and everyone appears to have been replaced it's back to business.
@everyone not already on KoolKoal wagon either get on or says why KK is town or why someone else should be lynched.
I'm going to post as I go because **** doing everything at once. Plus, it's not like I'll be interrupting any engaging conversations.
Maybe after every other page or so. It's likely my questions/comments will already have been addressed/settled, but I'd like to get my thought process/opinions out there since it's very important I squash any doubts of my loyalty to the town.
So. After page one, I really don't like Generic's mini-case on Antny. Generic townslipped, someone said? Maybe point it out to me so I don't miss it, for me townslips are either super obvious or so hard to see I give myself a headache from squinting at them.
Starting page four. I'm going slow because Cheeto dust + reading posts at least twice.
Forgot to mention: I believe Antny's inquiry of the Judge being present in game, and I like him for town (so far). I'm going to assume he is in fact not knowingly aligned with the Judge.
May have seen AE getting his buddying on with Generic in #40.
I like town!Taredas for proposing the GD claim + backing off when it looked like Demons could screw it up. It'd be really easy as scum to handwave it with "oh snap didn't realize that my b," had someone else pointed it out.
AE's #107 is bad. I haven't read ahead yet, but I'm guessing he's not going to elaborate on his vote until he's directly asked and just cruise along the thread in the meantime.
Also, some people post so little, it's like they're not even in the game. Reading (unfamiliar) people who lurk is hard enough, reading people who lurk because busy!IRL is just yuck. Like, it makes me just want to leave the slot alone as null until they find more time to post or are replaced because when someone says "too busy got work to do" I immediately think "wow if I accuse them of scumlurking they will probably yell at me." I'm doing a horrible job of conveying this, back to quietly reading.
@everyone not already on KoolKoal wagon[/b] either get on or says why KK is town or why someone else should be lynched.
Three options, you can't say I aint generous.
Surprised I agree with you on something. This is pretty much where I am right now - until KoolKoal posts and our replacements post something compelling, I'm pretty bored with the gamestate and content with lynching KK at any given moment.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Hey AE... you hopped off of me *why*, exactly? That's *not* the reaction I'd expect from a town AE.
Really? See the vote count?
I don't give a crap about your vote. I *do* give a crap about you dropping your attack on me (i.e, you suddenly *stopped* actively trying to get other players to vote for me) and instead attacking KA (the other player actively attacking you) without offering explanation, because all the town reasons I can think of for suddenly arguing for KA as scum usually come with explanation and/or a moved vote.
So - you stopped actively arguing for my lynch why, exactly?
2) Grave-digger should claim today. It's incredibly strong for scum to have a grave-digger due to the ability to fake-claim stuff especially early on in the game. This game also doesn't have a jester or other mechanic to slow down the early game allowing scum to utilize grave digger. Scum!apprentice would know who town grave digger is anyways if they pick grave digger. Town grave digger is a sub-par role to kill for scum, so it's relatively safe for them to out.
Quick question: Have you played this with Shenanigans as a Night 1 unlock or a Night 2 unlock? If the former, you may not be familiar with the current game theory threads posted by Taredas stating that claiming GD on D1 is pretty much useless now. If you have played though with Shenanigans as a N1 unlock and actually had GD claim D1, mind posting a completed game showing this so we can see what happened?
Why does Shenanigans Night unlock make a difference? The only games I've played in, the first witch to die gains the ability to use shenanigans once at their discretion, meaning it only matters beginning on the first night any witches are dead. I don't see how it bears implications on the grave-digger claiming today or not.
Looking over it again, I think I misunderstood the FantasyStrike arguments earlier - the issue with D1 GD claim with the new Angel/Demon setup isn't that Shenanigans is unlocked N1 but rather that a) Shenanigans is now repeatable (so a repeat check doesn't confirm/deny that Shenanigans was used) and b) Curse is not available N1 (so any Demons around N1 *have* to use Shenanigans).
In related news, I'm pretty sure you're town here - you're, uh, "a lot calmer" (to use your own description of Town!Tar from Drury) than I'd expect from you as scum. As for the part of mindset 2 I was keeping to myself, I think I'll just note that if I thought mindset 3 was in play my first thought would have been to 1-on-1 you and leave it at that for now.
"A lot calmer"? Am I normally hyper or frenetic as scum?
No, but you *are* shorter, snippier, less assured, and more emotional as scum, especially later in the game as your motivation breaks down. (Wouldn't be surprised if the differences have a similar cause, too - IIRC your favorite thing about Mafia, like mine, is figuring things out, and drawing scum doesn't really let you do that..)
here. I'm also leaning scum on Generic but I'm not too sure on anyone else right now beyond the odd weak townread.
You're probably scum.
Can you walk me through this one? I'm not seeing it - Antny's defense towards Generic in particular feels townie, and Koal reads more like buddying scum than actual scumbuddies - and that's a lynchpin read because if Antny *is* scum then Generic almost certainly isn't.
I mostly skimmed his defense against Generic, though I don't remember feeling compelled by anything I read. I think (I say "think" here because I haven't looked at the quote in the context of the game) what I was voting for here was the timing + forced-seeming reasoning given. It just felt like a bus vote.[/quote]
You might be right - especially given how KK has been reacting to Antny as opposed to you/me (I wonder if Fadeblue in A3 applies to defense as well?). More on that in a little bit.
Hey Tare, what do you make of KoolKoal's wagon being at L-3 for as long as it has?
The usual - when a wagon stalls around L-2, especially on D1, it usually means that the scum are inactive, already on the wagon, and/or actively avoiding it (good examples: dkings in Drury [until I committed and Arian/Rodemy replaced in], Vi in CT2 [until kpaca replaced in], Az in CT3).
More interested in the lack of a counterwagon and players townreading KK, myself - usually a D1 stall is contributed to by townies townreading the target, but here I think it's just the sheer number of replacements. (Guessing at least one of our scum was/is inactive, regardless - best guesses are Cantripmancer or Vaimes [who replaced question-mark Eshnolat and claimed GD - KK's mindset/behavior makes slightly more sense with a scum GD, since that's the easiest way to ensure a "[Taredas/Tanarin] was town!" result].)
The whole Shenanigans thing really only applies if we actually hit scum on D1. And if we mislynch, then the Angels can Protect me. Fun, fun, fun.
You had an iffy predecessor, aren't an obvtown analyst, and have claimed non-Holy (with a role scum may want to keep alive, to boot). Angels should protect you why, exactly?
As for koolkoal, his OMGUS played a part, but mostly I have reasons which are tactical. And as time has marched on the wagon has just felt right given the other votes on it. The other three people on the wagon I think are town. And given the weakest town read on that wagon is Iso that's a good wagon to be on.
Sigh, I was really close to townreading you Generic and then you said this.
Uhh... why on Earth would you mention that townread part if you're town who (still) thinks Generic is scum? Town has no reason to do so - it's irrelevant to your current read. It makes perfect sense from scum defusing conflict/not wanting to be proven wrong later, though.
Hypothetically TMCT, if you had the kingmaker power right now who would you lynch?
KK. I have a good feeling about 2½ players on his wagon (i.e. more than any other wagon) so he's the logical way to end the Day. My gut is only saying leaning town on him.
This is scummy as hell as well. It's like you and Generic are competing to say the worst thing.
No, *this* (specifically the second sentence) is scummy as hell - I've seen too many scum on 'Scum make potshots like this, and I don't see a reason for you to include it as town.
Antny, I'm far too self aware to say anything I know would seem scummy when I'm scum.
But then, by suggesting that it means I'm self aware towards what I would and wouldn't say in any given situation.
Logically you really should have looked at why I would suggest tactical. But then again you wouldn't even quantify your issue with my post so you are slipping in my estimations too.
Actually the tactical bit wasn't the part I didn't like. The part that causes me trouble is the fact that you have gone from the "look I solved the game" super strong scumread to not even the weakest townread on the wagon. What exactly did I do to swing round so suddenly?
[quote]3) Kinda hard to remember who's who since I've never played with all of you before. Thus far I have a strong town-read on Generic and a strong scum-read on Antsy
Antsy -> Forced opening post, used a smiley (soft scum tell), OMGUS'd Generic, didn't push at all on Generic after (called Generic scum to doubt cast from my skim-read-analysis), hasnt really done anything really active beyond engaging with Generic (which he stopped doing after calling Generic scum)
Vote: Antsy
A-N-T-N-Y - Just five letters. It's not as if you have to win a spelling bee to get it right.
Also this the worst case against me I've seen in a long while.
Did no one other than me and Generic manage to say anything that left an impression?
OK, now we the GD claimed and everyone appears to have been replaced it's back to business.
@everyone not already on KoolKoal wagon either get on or says why KK is town or why someone else should be lynched.
Three options, you can't say I aint generous.
And you bust out the same "you have no case" that KK did (or at least *almost* the same - see below), with deflection to boot.
And that last sentence feels tacked on, just like the competition comment did.
A. You outright said exactly what my "loaded question" asked, so I fail to see how I was making a cunning trap for you. I'm sorry I didn't realize I shouldn't bother to ask you because you were already scummy regardless of your answer.
No, I said what the *non-loaded* version of your question would have been (and answered it). And that "already scummy regardless of your answer"? That was the entire *point* of your question. You never cared about figuring out my alignment - you just cared about hopefully getting a mislynch.
B. I did explain why his case was in error, perhaps not well, but I did. And how dare I not be indignant at a case that isn't threatening! I even said "lol!" The scummery of it all! Clearly, all town players get angry when a fellow townie attacks them no matter what!
Humor to defuse a situation you say? I insulted his case, how is that an attempt to defuse the situation? If it affected the situation at all, it would only be to make him angry.
I'll give you credit for one thing - not *all* town players get angry. See, there are three prototypical town reactions to mistaken pressure: ignoring it (usually done in response to unthreatening cases from either alignment), explaining why the attack is wrong (usually done in response to cases from town reads, to get them to stop wasting their time), or counterattacking (done in response to cases from scumreads in order to try to get them lynched).
But your response to Antny? Doesn't fit any of those. Obviously, since you claim to be townreading Antny, you wouldn't be counterattacking - that could get a townread lynched, which would be dumb. The other standard town responses But instead, you choose to dismiss the case - and, if we take your words at face value, not merely dismiss but insult it? How is that supposed to help your supposed townread Antny realize that he is wrong and move his vote somewhere more productive, as opposed to doubling down on the attack towards a person he feels slighted him.
But it makes perfectly good sense if you don't really care what Antny thinks and just don't want other people to attack you for it, with a dash of humor.
(Or... it makes perfectly good sense if you're his scumbuddy and therefore *KNOW* that his case is scum-motivated. Which I'm starting to consider, because of the way you're defending against Iso and I: you *claim* to think we're both scum, but you're defending yourself from us by trying to explain yourself - which, as noted above, is usually a response to being attacked by a player you think is *town*. If this is the case, my original comments about your defense re: Antny are, in fact, wrong - your dismissal *isn't* motivated by not wanting other players to grab onto the case, but rather because you *know* the case is scum-motivated [i.e, a bus] and are subconsciously defending like you would defend a case from a scumread, despite your stated townread on Antny.)
D. Uh, I was trying to figure out which of you was which? You do realize you two had posted like 4 times all together since I'd decided you were unaligned pairs, right? You do realize I hadn't even decided you were an unaligned pair, and in fact said many times only that both of you weren't scum, right? And how am I supposed to chain mislynches in a no-reveal game?
Bullfeathers. Let's take a look at your posts, shall we?
I think I was a bit tired when I made that post. My thought process at the time was: AE is good mislynch target imo + Taredas makes bad case on AE = scum. I won't go into more detail until AE defends himself, but tone down my previous statement down to IGMEOY, as it relates to Taredas, at least.
Oh, Tan's question isn't where my scum read of him comes from, except that he goes from the question to /barning a weak case and a vote on a dime. He even called the case "way better" than the case his question was going to spawn.
My remark about Tanarin's question was that I'm waiting to see what he's getting at in case he's wrong and it's better than Taredas's case, but right now it looks like he asked a weak question to probe, and got excited when Taredas dropped a vote for the same player he (Tan) was setting up on.
* - Corollary: I *hate* attacking townies I read easily as scum, since it's even harder for me to fake my tone when doing so - I tend to steer clear of them, as I did to you in both Drury and CT3.
Are you saying you'd be hiding from Iso and AE if you were scum?
I'm back to believing one of them is scum. Tan still seems scummier, but they probably aren't buddies because of Tan's /barn+vote post, but Taredas keeps on pinging my scumdar in small ways.
iRebel: As I said in my post, I'm very good at reading players like him. Other people are confused by players like him, I haven't been since my first games.
You claim to think that Tanarin and I are unaligned pairs. But... you haven't been prodding at either of us (outside of a single post that's a blatant attempt to paint me as scummy) or asking other players about us or, in short, any of the things that you do to actually *resolve* a dichotomy.
What you *have* done is to try to set up to push whichever of us gets more traction. You've jabbed at Tanarin, and you tried to paint me as scummy (and probably set yourself up for a jump onto me) after AE started to attack me. Your initial reaction to my AE push was classic scum "I'll call you scum now and make up a reason later", with a quick backpedal when Generic called me town. (Note to self: Generic, at this point, is probably town.) In short, you're fencesitting scum and you've acted like such.
Oh, and how do you chain mislynches in a no-reveal game? That's easy - Priest fakeclaims are a thing, as are gravedigger results.
[quote from="Iso »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/mafia/569032-witchhunt-day-1?comment=216"][quote from="Taredas"]In related news, I'm pretty sure you're town here - you're, uh, "a lot calmer" (to use your own description of Town!Tar from Drury) than I'd expect from you as scum. As for the part of mindset 2 I was keeping to myself, I think I'll just note that if I thought mindset 3 was in play my first thought would have been to 1-on-1 you and leave it at that for now.
"A lot calmer"? Am I normally hyper or frenetic as scum?
No, but you *are* shorter, snippier, less assured, and more emotional as scum, especially later in the game as your motivation breaks down. (Wouldn't be surprised if the differences have a similar cause, too - IIRC your favorite thing about Mafia, like mine, is figuring things out, and drawing scum doesn't really let you do that..)
Less assured, maybe. When I'm scum, I hunt for PRs, not town or scum, since I already know who's scum - so the hunt/figuring the game out is still on, it's just a matter of "who to kill and when". Shorter, snippier, and more emotional I think is based mostly on my emotional state/confidence level/track record for the game, as well as who's annoying me with their playstyle. One thing I hate [when town] almost as much as repeating myself is when people don't listen to me, even if I'm wrong - I have a method to my madness, and when I'm allowed to lynch whomever I want, I get the results I want - and obviously certain flips give me less information than I need or no information at all. If I lose motivation as town, it's because the game isn't going the way I want it to or people are stalling. If I lose motivation as scum, it's because I'm not getting what I want or because the game feels like it's on autopilot. When I'm town, it's like I'm a gardener who knows what some weeds look like and what things may grow into flowers, but sometimes I just have to pull up the roots from the weaker plants that take nutrients from the flowers and hope I get some weeds in the process to allow the other plants to flourish. If that makes any sense. When I'm scum, it's more of a "let's see who I can get away with lynching until I have to bus!" thing these days. So while it's fun to pull the wool over the eyes of other players still, I do enjoy being town more these days than I used to. Vanilla Town's still boring, though, which is why I always try to spice up my VT play.
Anyway, all that's just theory and playstyle babbling - let's talk about it post-game.
Quote from Taredas »
You might be right - especially given how KK has been reacting to Antny as opposed to you/me (I wonder if Fadeblue in A3 applies to defense as well?). More on that in a little bit.
Sure, I'll wait.
Quote from Taredas »
The usual - when a wagon stalls around L-2, especially on D1, it usually means that the scum are inactive, already on the wagon, and/or actively avoiding it (good examples: dkings in Drury [until I committed and Arian/Rodemy replaced in], Vi in CT2 [until kpaca replaced in], Az in CT3).
More interested in the lack of a counterwagon and players townreading KK, myself - usually a D1 stall is contributed to by townies townreading the target, but here I think it's just the sheer number of replacements. (Guessing at least one of our scum was/is inactive, regardless - best guesses are Cantripmancer or Vaimes [Taredas/Tanarin] was town!" result].)
And who do you think the scum on KK's wagon might be? Also: Your examples: Are they in respective order of each of the aforementioned scenarios or what? (Can't be arsed to check now but I'll give it a look if/when I remember to see what you're talking about.)
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Ah, nath'd. I agree with most, if not all, of your points on KK, Tare. I particularly like your analysis on his reaction mindset - specifically the illustration of why Antny is likely his scumbuddy as compared to KK's arguments with you and myself. I'll double-check that tomorrow if I have any free time to see if that matches my own observations.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Whoops I'm not used to checking this forum, guess I gotta get used to the habit.
Antny, it's hard to hold as many new players in this game as there are in my head. So far I've only looked at a few.
I like Vaimes thus-far. If he's as new as he said he is, he has a confidence going for him that I wouldn't expect to see from inexperienced scum (who prefer to coast/lurk below the radar when they haven't even gotten their feet wet before)
Still haven't read KoolKaol, will do that when I get a chance (yay ~7 day deadlines)
"A lot calmer"? Am I normally hyper or frenetic as scum?
No, but you *are* shorter, snippier, less assured, and more emotional as scum, especially later in the game as your motivation breaks down. (Wouldn't be surprised if the differences have a similar cause, too - IIRC your favorite thing about Mafia, like mine, is figuring things out, and drawing scum doesn't really let you do that..)
Less assured, maybe. When I'm scum, I hunt for PRs, not town or scum, since I already know who's scum - so the hunt/figuring the game out is still on, it's just a matter of "who to kill and when". Shorter, snippier, and more emotional I think is based mostly on my emotional state/confidence level/track record for the game, as well as who's annoying me with their playstyle. One thing I hate [when town] almost as much as repeating myself is when people don't listen to me, even if I'm wrong - I have a method to my madness, and when I'm allowed to lynch whomever I want, I get the results I want - and obviously certain flips give me less information than I need or no information at all. If I lose motivation as town, it's because the game isn't going the way I want it to or people are stalling. If I lose motivation as scum, it's because I'm not getting what I want or because the game feels like it's on autopilot. When I'm town, it's like I'm a gardener who knows what some weeds look like and what things may grow into flowers, but sometimes I just have to pull up the roots from the weaker plants that take nutrients from the flowers and hope I get some weeds in the process to allow the other plants to flourish. If that makes any sense. When I'm scum, it's more of a "let's see who I can get away with lynching until I have to bus!" thing these days. So while it's fun to pull the wool over the eyes of other players still, I do enjoy being town more these days than I used to. Vanilla Town's still boring, though, which is why I always try to spice up my VT play.
Anyway, all that's just theory and playstyle babbling - let's talk about it post-game.
Better plan - let's talk about it at the end of D3 after locking down the game and right before we lynch the last Witch. [/reduxmirror]
More interested in the lack of a counterwagon and players townreading KK, myself - usually a D1 stall is contributed to by townies townreading the target, but here I think it's just the sheer number of replacements. (Guessing at least one of our scum was/is inactive, regardless - best guesses are Cantripmancer or Vaimes [Taredas/Tanarin] was town!" result].)
And who do you think the scum on KK's wagon might be? Also: Your examples: Are they in respective order of each of the aforementioned scenarios or what? (Can't be arsed to check now but I'll give it a look if/when I remember to see what you're talking about.)
Antny, as noted above - outside chances of Generic and none (I'm town, you're very likely town, Tanarin is likely town given his reactions to my early AE push). I doubt there are two scum on the wagon - Generic/Antny interactions do not feel like scumbuddies.
For the record, I'm pretty sure all three scum are in {KK, Antny, Vaimes, Cantrip, AE, Citrus}, with KK/Antny likely and AE/Citrus less likely (pending a reread of AE/iRebel interactions with KK/Antny early). TMCT doesn't feel like A3, KA is gut town, Generic *could* be scum but is probably not scum with Antny, Tanarin and yourself covered previously.
As for the order list - roughly timestamp order (can't remember whether Drury or CT2 started first, but I think it was Drury). (Order they came to mind was Drury, CT3, CT2, which shouldn't be surprising since I had a ringside seat for watching the first two unfold.)
KoolKoal's recent silence is doing more to convince me of his guilt than any of the other points against him so far.
I'm going to be V/LA starting on Friday, ending on Sunday. If necessary to avoid deadline, I'll vote KK before I leave. Consider this a FoS on him for now.
The Most Curious, I'm thrown off by your scum-read on Generic. Explain again please
Eh...I'm being pulled in the opposite direction on Generic now.
The short of the points against him is that his internal mindset as scum is emotionless, and his internal mindset as town is more abrasive. He likes to fake abrasiveness as scum and seemed to be doing so earlier in the game.
@everyone not already on KoolKoal wagon either get on or says why KK is town or why someone else should be lynched.
I'm waiting for KK's response to my two questions. KK is the "logical" end to the Day, but since this is a no-reveal game (less interaction analysis, etc.) I find myself more interested with finding the better lynch.
More pressure on Cantrip, everyone!
On the GD claim (hi Vaimes, I'm going to take a look at this later), the cons Tanarin mentioned can be mitigated by not locking ourselves into any course of action: the Priest doesn't need to cop the GD if he feels he has a better target and short of that we don't need to fully trust info from the GD if we don't have a town confirmation (Shenanigans or no).
So the town is alive! Finally. Waking up to more than one post is beautiful, beautiful.
@Iso
Uh. Did I not imply I thought it was backing off in a townie manner? Scum can push for a GD claim too, but I think they'd be less likely to make another post pointing out the Shenanigans risk.
@Taredas
Well, I was going to say they should protect me because I would be the only role outed, and I kind of need to be alive to report flips, but now that there's an Acolyte claim, that should probably be priority? Unless he's lying and someone CC's him. But then there won't even be any Angels N1, so eh.
@Citrus
I'm not that new. I said I've played one full game of WitchHunt, not that it was my only game.
/ / /
D1 Holy!wagon. Okay.
@Generic
The claim doesn't change your mind even a tiny bit? This is a yes/no question, not a "tell me your life story" question.
Are people on this site hammerhappy? If I put him at L-1 before the rest of the town weighs in, is anyone going to give me the stinkeye for bad forum manners?
(This has less to do with my alignment and more with asking about the unwritten rules of the mafia forum here. Like, I didn't know claiming at L-2 was a Thing here until someone mentioned it to me.)
@Iso
Uh. Did I not imply I thought it was backing off in a townie manner? Scum can push for a GD claim too, but I think they'd be less likely to make another post pointing out the Shenanigans risk.
You did imply that, and I wanted to know the distinction, since it's not very clear in your phrasing. What is the distinguishing factor that separates this as a town mindset from a scum mindset, in your opinion?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
1) Judge lynch D1 is an incredibly poor decision. With scum!Judge it means scum can effectively get a free perfect kill AND they can attempt to get a holy ESPECIALLY as someone who is trying to play off the radar would be a prime holy suspect for scum and it's easily justifiably to judge them as scum!judge
Additionally, judge lynching completely removes any semblance of vote train analysis. On top of all the other PURE BAD, it's an encouragement for all players to not use their votes today and encourages apathy due to players feeling like they can't do anything today with the exception of the judge. We are 100% lynching today.
2) Grave-digger should claim today. It's incredibly strong for scum to have a grave-digger due to the ability to fake-claim stuff especially early on in the game. This game also doesn't have a jester or other mechanic to slow down the early game allowing scum to utilize grave digger. Scum!apprentice would know who town grave digger is anyways if they pick grave digger. Town grave digger is a sub-par role to kill for scum, so it's relatively safe for them to out.
3) Kinda hard to remember who's who since I've never played with all of you before. Thus far I have a strong town-read on Generic and a strong scum-read on Antsy
Antsy -> Forced opening post, used a smiley (soft scum tell), OMGUS'd Generic, didn't push at all on Generic after (called Generic scum to doubt cast from my skim-read-analysis), hasnt really done anything really active beyond engaging with Generic (which he stopped doing after calling Generic scum)
Vote: Antsy
Quick question: Have you played this with Shenanigans as a Night 1 unlock or a Night 2 unlock? If the former, you may not be familiar with the current game theory threads posted by Taredas stating that claiming GD on D1 is pretty much useless now. If you have played though with Shenanigans as a N1 unlock and actually had GD claim D1, mind posting a completed game showing this so we can see what happened?
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
Why does Shenanigans Night unlock make a difference? The only games I've played in, the first witch to die gains the ability to use shenanigans once at their discretion, meaning it only matters beginning on the first night any witches are dead. I don't see how it bears implications on the grave-digger claiming today or not.
An example of a game with a grave-digger claiming D1 (also run by Proph).
tl;dr of the game, in case anyone wants to look through some of it without bias:
Town grave-digger Lyrium, town won that game
(7 to lynch)
KoolKoal (4): Antny223, Taredas, Generic, Iso
Taredas (2): Archmage Eternal, KoolKoal
Archmage Eternal (2): Tanarin, KamikazeArchon
Generic (2): Vaimes, The Most Curious Thing
The Most Curious Thing (1): Cantripmancer
Antny223 (1): CitricBase
Abstain (0)
Effective immediately, Vaimes replaces Eshnolat.
Prods and deadlines will be resumed. The new deadline is September 7th.
In addition, there is a change in the rules:
Due to the way how the Loose Cannon works, once someone hammers, please cease posting. There will be no twilight period.
Hi friends! I'll read up tomorrow, I basically found out this game existed a few minutes ago, and WH is my favorite so I sort of just. Let myself dive into it.
Also wow the Cards system is different. This'll be fun.
@AE: As for your question on how inactivity helps scum, well I am sure I can find millions of examples. The base of my argument though is the fact that it is always way easier for scum to blend in on an inactive game vs an active game. If a game is really inactive, scum can basically float by. IN an active game though, scum has to try and either keep up with the rest of the game, or at minimum try and provide as much content as possible in as few posts as possible while still looking town. Anybody here who has played a game as scum (Which I am assuming is everyone at this point,) knows that trying to post content that seems town on a constant basis is not easy unless a lot of mislynch targets present themselves.
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
You do that and get back to me. (I'll probably forget, so feel free to remind me.) Anyway, who do you consider more interesting right now and why? Sans Generic, of course.
You'll get over it.
It might help if you weren't posting in the dead of night - even on a holiday weekend.
And okay. Engaging you: Tell me why I should believe you're town based on your predecessor's play.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I get all that and it's pretty irrelevant in this game when the deadline has been halted and we're waiting on replacements, no?
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
True, but that's when I replaced in and had a chance to read. And apologies for possibly butchering the quote, I'm getting used to the forum still
Anyways. Loaded question is loaded. Why should I care, since I'm pretty sure it'll be obvious I'm town soon enough?
In fact, why don't you share some of your reads? I'm quite the curious cat, I dare say
Keep in mind as a new player (to this forum) I could just slide through feigning ignorance to some of those concepts if I were scum. I would absolutely love a judge lynch as scum today, even if the judge were town.
Who here still doesn't want the grave-digger to claim? Because the grave digger should claim
Pros:
1) We get a role out that can really wreck the town if it goes unclaimed until later and happens to be in scum hands.
2) Puts scum in the awkward situation of either having to kill the GD (Which likely means scum have the apprentice set to GD,) using Shenanigans on him (Which is not assured to work as the priest may not check him,) or Leaving him alone (Which is not good should priest actually check him.)
3) If the GD is scum, he is likely to be busted real fast by the Priest.
Cons:
1) Could become a mislynch victim real fast if scum is lynched day 1.
2) Likely locks in the priest to a N1 inspect that could be used elsewhere.
3) We can't fully trust the info from the GD unless we have a random Priest inspect as well at MC time.
I really want others to chime in on this issue next post they make.
Edit: I also noticed the forums lost an entire post I swore I posted addressing this issue to Citrus.
Essence of the post:
I'll look at the game he posted and think about a GD claim some more.
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
Also wow, barely any posts in the past 24 hours. Maybe a GD claim will fix that? Get some juices flowing in here? So I have something fresh to look forward to when I'm done slugging through the thread?
(hi, I am the Gravedigger)
For the record, I have played exactly one game of WitchHunt. The majority (if not all) of the players pushed for/were in favor of an early GD claim, and town ended up winning. Yay.
@Tanarin
Yeah, too late. This boat has long since sailed. We're on the open sea now.
1) How about we take into account that Shenanigans is in fact a possibility and cross that bridge when we come to it? Like. If the Priest checks me for scum, it won't be like we didn't know Shenanigans could have happened. We can talk it out like mature adults.
2) Or the Priest could check someone else, and come back to me some other Night if they really want to? Last game the GD was super obv!town so this wasn't really an issue, but. I'm not too worried.
3) Relax. I'm town. Trust me and everything will be alright.
The whole Shenanigans thing really only applies if we actually hit scum on D1. And if we mislynch, then the Angels can Protect me. Fun, fun, fun.
Scum want to know the cards of the dead just as much as town does. How else are they going to know if they nailed the Priest? If I die N1, then you should probably lynch the Apprentice whenever a massclaim goes down and they're still alive.
It's not obvious to me, nor is my question loaded.
I have stated all of my scum reads in the thread. The rest shouldn't matter to you presently, aside from my read on you.
Give me the tl;dr of why the Gravedigger should claim.
God dammit.
Okay, so what exactly is good about an early Gravedigger claim?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
The Gravedigger claim in pregame is always optimal, as it allows the GD to drop info as we go, and increases accountability. The method of the claim can also be very helpful in determining their alignment, as it was in this case. The gravedigger, if town, is unlikely to get shot, as scum tend to be more interested in holy hunting and get some use from the gravedigger role info.
And another one:
It's all about accountability. The gravedigger has one of the most influential roles, and there's a 4/13 chance they're scum. By forcing them to claim early on, you have the extra scrutiny on them from the beginning. By making it occur in pregame, you can have the apprentice choose gravedigger in order to out a witch!gravedigger unwilling to come forward and prevent a scum with the apprentice or gravedigger on their team from fakeclaiming and being believed. Further, the gravedigger dropping information every day cuts down on the available fakeclaims for scum. In the past (and by that, I mean on fantasystrike, a site that plays Witchhunt far more often than we do here), gravedigger info, along with the temptation of holy hunting, has proved valuable enough to prevent scum from killing them early on.
OK then, guess no need for further discussion on the GD issue. I didn't even think about the mislynch possibility though, so good point from you.
So, mind posting your reads once you are done with your readthrough? (Or even some prelim reads if you have any of those queued up.)
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
Vaimes, could you specifically look at Archmage Eternal and iRebel (now CitricBase)?
Alternatively use the search feature and a player's name. Either method should get you an iso. It aint great but it suffices.
Actually the tactical bit wasn't the part I didn't like. The part that causes me trouble is the fact that you have gone from the "look I solved the game" super strong scumread to not even the weakest townread on the wagon. What exactly did I do to swing round so suddenly?
A-N-T-N-Y - Just five letters. It's not as if you have to win a spelling bee to get it right.
Also this the worst case against me I've seen in a long while.
Did no one other than me and Generic manage to say anything that left an impression?
OK, now we the GD claimed and everyone appears to have been replaced it's back to business.
@everyone not already on KoolKoal wagon either get on or says why KK is town or why someone else should be lynched.
Three options, you can't say I aint generous.
Maybe after every other page or so. It's likely my questions/comments will already have been addressed/settled, but I'd like to get my thought process/opinions out there since it's very important I squash any doubts of my loyalty to the town.
So. After page one, I really don't like Generic's mini-case on Antny. Generic townslipped, someone said? Maybe point it out to me so I don't miss it, for me townslips are either super obvious or so hard to see I give myself a headache from squinting at them.
Forgot to mention: I believe Antny's inquiry of the Judge being present in game, and I like him for town (so far). I'm going to assume he is in fact not knowingly aligned with the Judge.
May have seen AE getting his buddying on with Generic in #40.
I like town!Taredas for proposing the GD claim + backing off when it looked like Demons could screw it up. It'd be really easy as scum to handwave it with "oh snap didn't realize that my b," had someone else pointed it out.
Back to reading.
Also, some people post so little, it's like they're not even in the game. Reading (unfamiliar) people who lurk is hard enough, reading people who lurk because busy!IRL is just yuck. Like, it makes me just want to leave the slot alone as null until they find more time to post or are replaced because when someone says "too busy got work to do" I immediately think "wow if I accuse them of scumlurking they will probably yell at me." I'm doing a horrible job of conveying this, back to quietly reading.
Vote KoolKoal
L-2 Everyone
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
What part of "I will not explain at this time" don't you understand?
(I'm also increasingly unsure that the contingency I'm worried about is actually in play, so there's that.)
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
(7 to lynch)
KoolKoal (5): Antny223, Taredas, Generic, Iso, Tanarin
Taredas (2): Archmage Eternal, KoolKoal
Archmage Eternal (1): KamikazeArchon
Generic (1): The Most Curious Thing
The Most Curious Thing (1): Cantripmancer
Antny223 (1): CitricBase
Abstain (1): Vaimes
Archmage Eternal, Cantripmancer, KoolKoal, and The Most Curious Thing have been prodded.
You have five more days until deadline.
Surprised I agree with you on something. This is pretty much where I am right now - until KoolKoal posts and our replacements post something compelling, I'm pretty bored with the gamestate and content with lynching KK at any given moment.
Can you explain how this is different from backing off in a townie manner?
I'd be interested in hearing your contingency when the time is right.
-
I'm willing to see KoolKoal lynched without a claim if he goes 'til deadline without it. Just putting that out there since we only have 5 more days.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I don't give a crap about your vote. I *do* give a crap about you dropping your attack on me (i.e, you suddenly *stopped* actively trying to get other players to vote for me) and instead attacking KA (the other player actively attacking you) without offering explanation, because all the town reasons I can think of for suddenly arguing for KA as scum usually come with explanation and/or a moved vote.
So - you stopped actively arguing for my lynch why, exactly?
---
Looking over it again, I think I misunderstood the FantasyStrike arguments earlier - the issue with D1 GD claim with the new Angel/Demon setup isn't that Shenanigans is unlocked N1 but rather that a) Shenanigans is now repeatable (so a repeat check doesn't confirm/deny that Shenanigans was used) and b) Curse is not available N1 (so any Demons around N1 *have* to use Shenanigans).
---
No, but you *are* shorter, snippier, less assured, and more emotional as scum, especially later in the game as your motivation breaks down. (Wouldn't be surprised if the differences have a similar cause, too - IIRC your favorite thing about Mafia, like mine, is figuring things out, and drawing scum doesn't really let you do that..)
I mostly skimmed his defense against Generic, though I don't remember feeling compelled by anything I read. I think (I say "think" here because I haven't looked at the quote in the context of the game) what I was voting for here was the timing + forced-seeming reasoning given. It just felt like a bus vote.[/quote]
You might be right - especially given how KK has been reacting to Antny as opposed to you/me (I wonder if Fadeblue in A3 applies to defense as well?). More on that in a little bit.
The usual - when a wagon stalls around L-2, especially on D1, it usually means that the scum are inactive, already on the wagon, and/or actively avoiding it (good examples: dkings in Drury [until I committed and Arian/Rodemy replaced in], Vi in CT2 [until kpaca replaced in], Az in CT3).
More interested in the lack of a counterwagon and players townreading KK, myself - usually a D1 stall is contributed to by townies townreading the target, but here I think it's just the sheer number of replacements. (Guessing at least one of our scum was/is inactive, regardless - best guesses are Cantripmancer or Vaimes [who replaced question-mark Eshnolat and claimed GD - KK's mindset/behavior makes slightly more sense with a scum GD, since that's the easiest way to ensure a "[Taredas/Tanarin] was town!" result].)
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IIRC Curse has some (anti-spam?) rules about not being able to quote until a set number of posts. (I still miss the old interface...)
You had an iffy predecessor, aren't an obvtown analyst, and have claimed non-Holy (with a role scum may want to keep alive, to boot). Angels should protect you why, exactly?
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
Uhh... why on Earth would you mention that townread part if you're town who (still) thinks Generic is scum? Town has no reason to do so - it's irrelevant to your current read. It makes perfect sense from scum defusing conflict/not wanting to be proven wrong later, though.
No, *this* (specifically the second sentence) is scummy as hell - I've seen too many scum on 'Scum make potshots like this, and I don't see a reason for you to include it as town.
And you bust out the same "you have no case" that KK did (or at least *almost* the same - see below), with deflection to boot.
And that last sentence feels tacked on, just like the competition comment did.
That townread I had on you? Shot.
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No, I said what the *non-loaded* version of your question would have been (and answered it). And that "already scummy regardless of your answer"? That was the entire *point* of your question. You never cared about figuring out my alignment - you just cared about hopefully getting a mislynch.
I'll give you credit for one thing - not *all* town players get angry. See, there are three prototypical town reactions to mistaken pressure: ignoring it (usually done in response to unthreatening cases from either alignment), explaining why the attack is wrong (usually done in response to cases from town reads, to get them to stop wasting their time), or counterattacking (done in response to cases from scumreads in order to try to get them lynched).
But your response to Antny? Doesn't fit any of those. Obviously, since you claim to be townreading Antny, you wouldn't be counterattacking - that could get a townread lynched, which would be dumb. The other standard town responses But instead, you choose to dismiss the case - and, if we take your words at face value, not merely dismiss but insult it? How is that supposed to help your supposed townread Antny realize that he is wrong and move his vote somewhere more productive, as opposed to doubling down on the attack towards a person he feels slighted him.
But it makes perfectly good sense if you don't really care what Antny thinks and just don't want other people to attack you for it, with a dash of humor.
(Or... it makes perfectly good sense if you're his scumbuddy and therefore *KNOW* that his case is scum-motivated. Which I'm starting to consider, because of the way you're defending against Iso and I: you *claim* to think we're both scum, but you're defending yourself from us by trying to explain yourself - which, as noted above, is usually a response to being attacked by a player you think is *town*. If this is the case, my original comments about your defense re: Antny are, in fact, wrong - your dismissal *isn't* motivated by not wanting other players to grab onto the case, but rather because you *know* the case is scum-motivated [i.e, a bus] and are subconsciously defending like you would defend a case from a scumread, despite your stated townread on Antny.)
Bullfeathers. Let's take a look at your posts, shall we?
You claim to think that Tanarin and I are unaligned pairs. But... you haven't been prodding at either of us (outside of a single post that's a blatant attempt to paint me as scummy) or asking other players about us or, in short, any of the things that you do to actually *resolve* a dichotomy.
What you *have* done is to try to set up to push whichever of us gets more traction. You've jabbed at Tanarin, and you tried to paint me as scummy (and probably set yourself up for a jump onto me) after AE started to attack me. Your initial reaction to my AE push was classic scum "I'll call you scum now and make up a reason later", with a quick backpedal when Generic called me town. (Note to self: Generic, at this point, is probably town.) In short, you're fencesitting scum and you've acted like such.
Oh, and how do you chain mislynches in a no-reveal game? That's easy - Priest fakeclaims are a thing, as are gravedigger results.
Choke on your words and die, scum.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
Less assured, maybe. When I'm scum, I hunt for PRs, not town or scum, since I already know who's scum - so the hunt/figuring the game out is still on, it's just a matter of "who to kill and when". Shorter, snippier, and more emotional I think is based mostly on my emotional state/confidence level/track record for the game, as well as who's annoying me with their playstyle. One thing I hate [when town] almost as much as repeating myself is when people don't listen to me, even if I'm wrong - I have a method to my madness, and when I'm allowed to lynch whomever I want, I get the results I want - and obviously certain flips give me less information than I need or no information at all. If I lose motivation as town, it's because the game isn't going the way I want it to or people are stalling. If I lose motivation as scum, it's because I'm not getting what I want or because the game feels like it's on autopilot. When I'm town, it's like I'm a gardener who knows what some weeds look like and what things may grow into flowers, but sometimes I just have to pull up the roots from the weaker plants that take nutrients from the flowers and hope I get some weeds in the process to allow the other plants to flourish. If that makes any sense. When I'm scum, it's more of a "let's see who I can get away with lynching until I have to bus!" thing these days. So while it's fun to pull the wool over the eyes of other players still, I do enjoy being town more these days than I used to. Vanilla Town's still boring, though, which is why I always try to spice up my VT play.
Anyway, all that's just theory and playstyle babbling - let's talk about it post-game.
Sure, I'll wait.
And who do you think the scum on KK's wagon might be? Also: Your examples: Are they in respective order of each of the aforementioned scenarios or what? (Can't be arsed to check now but I'll give it a look if/when I remember to see what you're talking about.)
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Antny, it's hard to hold as many new players in this game as there are in my head. So far I've only looked at a few.
I like Vaimes thus-far. If he's as new as he said he is, he has a confidence going for him that I wouldn't expect to see from inexperienced scum (who prefer to coast/lurk below the radar when they haven't even gotten their feet wet before)
Still haven't read KoolKaol, will do that when I get a chance (yay ~7 day deadlines)
Antny, as noted above - outside chances of Generic and none (I'm town, you're very likely town, Tanarin is likely town given his reactions to my early AE push). I doubt there are two scum on the wagon - Generic/Antny interactions do not feel like scumbuddies.
For the record, I'm pretty sure all three scum are in {KK, Antny, Vaimes, Cantrip, AE, Citrus}, with KK/Antny likely and AE/Citrus less likely (pending a reread of AE/iRebel interactions with KK/Antny early). TMCT doesn't feel like A3, KA is gut town, Generic *could* be scum but is probably not scum with Antny, Tanarin and yourself covered previously.
As for the order list - roughly timestamp order (can't remember whether Drury or CT2 started first, but I think it was Drury). (Order they came to mind was Drury, CT3, CT2, which shouldn't be surprising since I had a ringside seat for watching the first two unfold.)
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
I'm going to be V/LA starting on Friday, ending on Sunday. If necessary to avoid deadline, I'll vote KK before I leave. Consider this a FoS on him for now.
And now I need to claim, huh?
I'm the acolyte.
Very interested in what you say next post, good sir.
At first blush I like Citric and am conflicted on Vaimes -- we'll see about them later.
Eh...I'm being pulled in the opposite direction on Generic now.
The short of the points against him is that his internal mindset as scum is emotionless, and his internal mindset as town is more abrasive. He likes to fake abrasiveness as scum and seemed to be doing so earlier in the game.
I'm waiting for KK's response to my two questions. KK is the "logical" end to the Day, but since this is a no-reveal game (less interaction analysis, etc.) I find myself more interested with finding the better lynch.
More pressure on Cantrip, everyone!
On the GD claim (hi Vaimes, I'm going to take a look at this later), the cons Tanarin mentioned can be mitigated by not locking ourselves into any course of action: the Priest doesn't need to cop the GD if he feels he has a better target and short of that we don't need to fully trust info from the GD if we don't have a town confirmation (Shenanigans or no).
@Iso
Uh. Did I not imply I thought it was backing off in a townie manner? Scum can push for a GD claim too, but I think they'd be less likely to make another post pointing out the Shenanigans risk.
@Taredas
Well, I was going to say they should protect me because I would be the only role outed, and I kind of need to be alive to report flips, but now that there's an Acolyte claim, that should probably be priority? Unless he's lying and someone CC's him. But then there won't even be any Angels N1, so eh.
@Citrus
I'm not that new. I said I've played one full game of WitchHunt, not that it was my only game.
/ / /
D1 Holy!wagon. Okay.
@Generic
The claim doesn't change your mind even a tiny bit? This is a yes/no question, not a "tell me your life story" question.
Are people on this site hammerhappy? If I put him at L-1 before the rest of the town weighs in, is anyone going to give me the stinkeye for bad forum manners?
(This has less to do with my alignment and more with asking about the unwritten rules of the mafia forum here. Like, I didn't know claiming at L-2 was a Thing here until someone mentioned it to me.)
I figured you'd be the one to counterclaim.
You did imply that, and I wanted to know the distinction, since it's not very clear in your phrasing. What is the distinguishing factor that separates this as a town mindset from a scum mindset, in your opinion?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
KoolKaol, did you crumb that anywhere at all? Why was that post so forced? Why did you not try to soft-claim holy in any way or do anything else?
Fake-vote on KoolKaol (don't want an early hammer)