This is AI's scum M.O. He takes drive-by potshots, very rarely pushes his own positions and vote rationale (instead preferring to piggyback off of others), and is just all-around a completely different AI from townAI.
More like CBFAI. I don't think you know how to read me at all.
I'm pretty sure I've nailed you to the wall every time we've played together and you've been scum, except for Peso and that was just a bad game for me in general. Hell, I FOUGHT my scum read of you in Amistaria III because I kept telling myself there's no way you could be so painfully obviously scum, until it struck me that, hey, you actually were.
So, try again?
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I'm pretty sure I've made this exact passive-aggressive handwave as scum to defend myself in the past.
Good thing I'm not you! Thanks for telling the class how to catch you this game.
Compelling rebuttal!
Quote from AsianInvasion »
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That's fine, I'll take a bullet if I'm wrong about AI.
As satisfying that would be, it doesn't help us any if you're just wrong-headed town.
And which do you think is more likely at this point? I'm curious, considering you've had to ask both Seppel and Megiddo for their reads on me, since you seem incapable of producing your own? Or were you just testing the waters to see if an Iso wagon was viable? Or are you that frightened of my scum game? (I'll give you a hint, it's not the latter, despite how badly I burned you in CCMVI - your derisive tone does not support that theory.)
Quote from AsianInvasion »
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Am I more certain than I reasonably can be?
Outside of a cop investigation in a Basic no townie can be 100% sure anyone is scum.
@Iso - you did direct something at me (indirectly) asking to Chris or AI why it wouldn't make sense that I'd be nervous as scum wondering what Meg thought of me, painting my interaction with him in the light of my being afraid I was going to be caught - and my point was that all of that was anger/annoyance, not nervousness. And, I think you've probably seen enough of me to think better of analyzing it that way and, you usually talk about being able to analyze emotion well and have mentioned that you have trouble reading players like me (and Antny) in the past because of our normal lack of emotion. So, basically, your line on that and your approach to try to talk Chris off of his opinion on that I find suspicious.
Re: your response about AI and Killjoy - because it feels unnatural in looking back at it. You'd already made your point that you thought KJ was scum. There was no momentum on Killjoy. Karn was saying to lynch AI who you thought was scum and the lead wagon was on him. You later called AI obvscum and a couple of times indicated that both he or Killjoy were good lynches - so it seems off to me that you'd decide to take a stand there and not vote AI. It seems more like an opportunity to keep the wagon moving on a player you were sure was scum. You could have always made a case on KJ or reiterated your thoughts again if the AI wagon went through. That and Seppel linking me to Killjoy... the Killjoy wagon has a purposeful feel to it.
I think it probably means he's scum - and his early play, Chris's post on him, and the succinct nature of his catch up (I'm used to him being more elaborate and free with his posting) all jive with it.
Um, it's hard to push someone if you're dead.
So, you think Seppel and I are scumbuddies?
Quote from DCIII »
Unvote: Vote Killjoy
I feel a little better about AI based on his recent interactions with Iso (the ones a few pages ago more than the just no ones). I'm suspicious of both Seppel and Iso, still watching Proph, notice that Wildfire has gotten much more quiet now that he's under less suspicion - strongest town reads at the moment on Meg, and both Sirs.
"I'm suspicious about Iso, so I'm going to vote for the wagon he started." How on earth do AI's posts make you feel better about him?
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2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
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2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
He may be on a vacation or whatever, actually. I forget about those. But if he is not, failure.
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Iso: It seems you have a strong case on AI, and I was pretty convinced of him before that. But I'm less sure of Killjoy, and isolating his posts isn't painting too nasty of a picture of him. Can you give me a rundown of why you are so convinced he is scum?
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His first post struck me as odd and his response was incredibly lackluster. Follow that up with my perception of what he said that I believe to be a scumslip, combine it with his lack of any compelling content or generally good responses, and that's the case in a nutshell.
What parts of my AI push have you found particularly moving?
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Iso: I've been suspicious of AI from very early in the game. I voted him in #133, and I don't think I ever unvoted him (my vote either got reset or lost somehow).
Your big post on this page highlights a lot of his weak defenses. Like the "good thing I'm not you" and the "no one can be 100% sure anyone is scum" bits. They just rub me the wrong way.
Chris: It's a decent case, but in my experience with a few games with Killjoy he tends to draw early heat almost as well as I do.
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Is it a case of he is acting similar to how he has as town? If so I'd like to see the game. Not all heat is the same, and making comparisons to yourself is dangerous because empathy is not highly valued in mafia.
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Also it bothers me that your point on AI is "I've thought he was scum for almost 800 posts." So many posts have come and gone since then, I wish you had answered that question more solidly. Could be you are just being honest, though.
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I love how DC3 is starting to freak out after Megs votes Killjoy.
lol at this attempt to link me to Killjoy. Please explain why you think Killjoy has something to do with my discussion with Meg.
Because of the time it happened. Correlation, causation.
Instead of saying "you're wrong" in so many words, you could explain why you're acting this way, in your own words.
Okay, more on that coming but, my question to you is, why do you think the time it happened relates to Killjoy? What would you see as my motivation in that scenario? I can understand the broader concept from people without much experience with me that I might have been responding to Meg having a scum read on me - but linking me to Killjoy I don't get at all and makes me think that you have a reason to do so.
Because of the time it happened. Correlation, causation.
As for Seppel - none of my case on him had anything to do with him jumping around. I don't remember him forgetting why he voted for players - I especially don't remember him taking pressure off of people he voted like he did with HookerPunch before he got an answer. Like, I remember him voting Raptor and me until he saw our responses to pressure and I remember him hopping around between Asenion and Haiiro... but I don't remember him forgetting why he was voting those players. In fact, my impression that game was that he gave the impression of chaos but that little was getting by him. The HP vote seemed like a observation I'm used to seeing from him, forgetting about it entirely is not something I remember him doing - and the way he keeps stressing how little of the game he's read feels like he's really trying to emphasize that point. Also, I've read plenty where he's basically gone through the game mechanics in obsessive detail, so him seemingly forcibly removed from them in this game feels very off. Plus, his stressing to Meg twice that he thinks Meg is town also seemed like a strange play for Seppel who I feel like more often doesn't care what people think of the way he's playing. In general, it feels like he cares more about the perception of him in this game than I remember. I stand by this read and his trying to link my interactions with Meg as having something to do with Killjoy feels very off.
Oh I see. You're comparing a basic to a specialty.
In a basic, there's just pure scumhunting to be had from all players. In a specialty, people argue about game mechanics so much that I tune out until a serious amount of time has passed. Then I go into hyperdrive and nail all the scum.
This is why I prefer replacing in to specialties instead of starting already in them. But hey, it's a Zindabad game, and I've never played a Zindabad game from the beginning, so I thought I'd give it a try.
As to not playing as I normally do as town, that's true. But I'll ask you this - have you seen me play like this as scum, either? You haven't because I've never played like this.
@Meg - re: your moving - so? Also, what do you mean by discredit you? Trying to show why you're wrong and why you're under my skin to give some context to my mindset from before because people are questioning it? Yes, because you are. Also, I was replying to DK's comment that I've never played like this before and explaining why.
@Karn - to sum that post: I'm town, Meg is wrong and frustrating, I am suspicios of Seppel and Iso, Killjoy is also probably scum. AI, Proph, and Wildfire are still people I have an eye on but I also have a feeling that some of the folks in the background right now need more scrutiny (that part wasn't in the post).
@Iso - Why do you find it hard to believe that I could think you and Seppel were both scum? Regarding AI - I liked how he wasn't backing down from you and seemed assured in his responses and wasn't backing away but was pushing back on you in ways that seemed like he was genuinely skeptical of your play.
@Seppel - You're missing the point (or ignoring it) of my question. What do you think my motivation would be for going off on Megiddo after he voted Killjoy such that the timing is suspicious to you? In order for the timing to be suspicious there would have to be a motive that would make sense to you.
I'll give some thought to your second point.
That line about "have you seen me play like this as scum" was directed at DK because he said he hadn't seen me play like this and specified as town when he hasn't seen me play like this as either alignment and he's seen both... so I wanted to know why he singled that out.
1. Well we're both moving at the same time so I just thought I would address your Time Issues argument.
2. Discrediting will take more time to explain. I will dig into that later.
3. I don't care who you were replying to because it's irrelevant. You are making an argument that I (and others) have already established is scummy. I'm pointing it out in the funniest way possible, which is by posting a post where I said that I would lynch the next person to do something. I mean, I did this better in Smalltown Swap with Karn and the "secret word" thing (though I was wrong there IIRC), but hey. Something about rakes.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
Sorry for vanishing. Been busy at work and then I've been going home and testing for like 6 hours a night for GP Worcester with my team.
Unvote.
So...that whole going around in circles thing? Yeah. We need to pick a wagon and stick to it.
@DKings:
1. I'm useless on Day 1 because I can't generally read people. I need interactions and facts to go off of before I can do anything. Analyzing the location mechanic is something I can do because we have the facts for that in the setup. Furthermore, if I -hadn't- made that post, we would've selected a subpar location and probably gotten screwed for it in the long run. Sure, it's a post scum could make. I've taken a lot of heat for it already, and I'd be surprised if I don't take more from it as the game progresses. I don't care. It was still correct to analyze the mechanic and it was still correct to post my conclusions.
2. I don't scumhunt on day 1 unless I have a 'gotcha.' If you have a problem with my defending people on D1, tough *****. It's what I do.
3. see also: Survival Horror, in which I pushed Seppel -hard- because I was 99.5% convinced he was scum, and it blew up in my face just as hard. I don't think I've ever been correct about Iso's alignment on d1-3. There's no point in my trying to unravel the mysteries of Iso and Seppel on day 1 in a -21 player game-. They'll come out in the wash after a few Days of content, interactions, night actions, etc.
4a. Cythare is still a dude.
4b. It's Day 1 (seeing a theme yet?). The only people who are certain of alignments are the scum. If I said I was certain that Cythare is scum, I would be a liar. I -believe- that he's scum. I could be wrong. Hell, with my track record, I probably am. Sorry, not sorry.
5. If you're that convinced that I'm scum, lynch me / shoot me / whatever. I'm completely unconcerned because A: I'm town, and B: if I get mislynched in the early Days of the game, I'll come back Obi-wan-style for Ghostlands anyway, at a point in the game at which I'll be substantially more useful. It's a waste, but that's your prerogative, not mine.
While I've got your attention, explain your Karn read.
@Cythare - what would you expect from me in terms of trying to figure out why Meg is scum reading me and what are you basing that on?
I would expect less concern from you, because I would think that your town play would be able to prove your alignment in the long run. Instead, you seem to be trying to meet Meg head on so that you can actively change his mind. The rest of this post seems overly explanatory for you.
Well, between that and your vaguely-feminine name...
Trufax: I thought Arnnaria was female in my first game with him. Part of this may have been because his avatar was a Chansey, and all Chanseys are female.
Anyhow, back to game relevance. We've locked in our move, so can we please get some traction on wagons? I'd really like to see AI hang.
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@Seppel - You're missing the point (or ignoring it) of my question. What do you think my motivation would be for going off on Megiddo after he voted Killjoy such that the timing is suspicious to you? In order for the timing to be suspicious there would have to be a motive that would make sense to you.
@Iso - Why do you find it hard to believe that I could think you and Seppel were both scum? Regarding AI - I liked how he wasn't backing down from you and seemed assured in his responses and wasn't backing away but was pushing back on you in ways that seemed like he was genuinely skeptical of your play.
Where did I say I found it hard to believe? Why do you keep putting words into my mouth? Why are you so concerned what people who aren't addressing you think of you?
Regarding AI...did you miss the many points he backed down on, or were you just "not counting" them for your convenience?
I suppose I'm a woman, too, given that my avatar has been Nadia Esra, Flandre Scarlet, and is currently the cover of Kamelot's "A Cold Winter's Night" live DVD...which also appears to have a woman on it.
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I suppose I'm a woman, too, given that my avatar has been Nadia Esra, Flandre Scarlet, and is currently the cover of Kamelot's "A Cold Winter's Night" live DVD...which also appears to have a woman on it.
I'm pretty sure I've nailed you to the wall every time we've played together and you've been scum, except for Peso and that was just a bad game for me in general. Hell, I FOUGHT my scum read of you in Amistaria III because I kept telling myself there's no way you could be so painfully obviously scum, until it struck me that, hey, you actually were.
So, try again?
Oh hey remember that time you called everyone on the playerlist scum and you walked away patting yourself on the back for catching the scumteam?
Oh wait, that's every game you play (and some you don't).
This isn't the first time we've had this conversation, and knowing you, it won't be the last.
Quote from Iso »
Compelling rebuttal!
You have to have a relevant point for me to consider providing a rebuttal.
Quote from Iso »
And which do you think is more likely at this point? I'm curious, considering you've had to ask both Seppel and Megiddo for their reads on me, since you seem incapable of producing your own? Or were you just testing the waters to see if an Iso wagon was viable? Or are you that frightened of my scum game? (I'll give you a hint, it's not the latter, despite how badly I burned you in CCMVI - your derisive tone does not support that theory.)
*****ty town.
Quote from Iso »
Disagree.
Get over yourself.
Quote from Iso »
so-content-many-wit-wow-doge.png
Do you have warty green skin and live under a bridge IRL too?
From memory (I'm gonna have to come back after work to skim the thread and see if there's any more on me in other places) A lot of the case on me is the obvious thing, which I've already discussed, and Iso with his scumslip theory.
As for the killjoy thing (augh I should be sleeping): Okay, so, there are a few possible things going on here.
The first possibility is that I named 4 scum of the 5 people I listed and killjoy, in his nervous haste, asked only why 4, as the 5th didn't register with him as scum.
It's happened before.
The second possibility is that because he is scum, and he knows there are 5 scum, he excludes himself mentally from the list as he's posting, asking me why I only think 4 people are scum (possibly because none of them are his buddies! unlikely, IMO) because he already knows he's scum.
It was really difficult for me to explain this - do you understand? It's a mindset thing - and definitely not a question I'd expect killjoy, of all people, to ask.
The third possibilty, and is more likely, is that I skimmed your post and only saw 4 names on my small phone. Which I think I told you.
As for the first two... Occum's Razor dude. You're making a lot of assumptions that you shouldn't be making.
First one: You say it's happened before... when? I've never seen that. As for the logic behind it... You claim it's a reaction to claiming that I and at least one of the others are scum. You've played with me before... how often do I get nervous? Moreover, how often do I get nervous in response to the first accusation of scumminess? I actually can't recall getting nervous ever when caught as scum... even in Supernatural I wasn't nervous (which was my first scum game). Finally... since you see nervousness in my response, can you explain where it is? Like show us why about that post reads as nervous to you?
As for the second one: You think I excluded myself from the list because... I know I'm scum? That doesn't make logical sense. You don't think I will keep in mind who is scum when posting,even in a "nervous haste"? I think Meg covered why this is a stretch as well.
When I get off of work at 1am, I'll have dinner, then come right back here and make sure that I'm covering what you guys need from me.I'll likely only have about 2 hours after dinner, fyi.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
3. I don't care who you were replying to because it's irrelevant. You are making an argument that I (and others) have already established is scummy. I'm pointing it out in the funniest way possible, which is by posting a post where I said that I would lynch the next person to do something. I mean, I did this better in Smalltown Swap with Karn and the "secret word" thing (though I was wrong there IIRC), but hey. Something about rakes.
You were extremely wrong and I even almost got you lynched for it iirc.
I'm pretty sure I've nailed you to the wall every time we've played together and you've been scum, except for Peso and that was just a bad game for me in general. Hell, I FOUGHT my scum read of you in Amistaria III because I kept telling myself there's no way you could be so painfully obviously scum, until it struck me that, hey, you actually were.
So, try again?
Oh hey remember that time you called everyone on the playerlist scum and you walked away patting yourself on the back for catching the scumteam?
Oh wait, that's every game you play (and some you don't).
This isn't the first time we've had this conversation, and knowing you, it won't be the last.
So, let's see...not addressing the point, and ad hom: Check.
Quote from AsianInvasion »
Quote from Iso »
Compelling rebuttal!
You have to have a relevant point for me to consider providing a rebuttal.
Handwave and and hom: Check.
Quote from AsianInvasion »
Quote from Iso »
And which do you think is more likely at this point? I'm curious, considering you've had to ask both Seppel and Megiddo for their reads on me, since you seem incapable of producing your own? Or were you just testing the waters to see if an Iso wagon was viable? Or are you that frightened of my scum game? (I'll give you a hint, it's not the latter, despite how badly I burned you in CCMVI - your derisive tone does not support that theory.)
*****ty town.
Ad hom: Check.
So, at what point between asking Seppel and Megiddo what their reads on me and now did you decide I was town? What post, or parts of posts, specifically, led you to this conclusion? Why couldn't you figure it out before asking Seppel and Megiddo? I'm asking because I don't believe that you of all people were able to make such a snap read on me in the amount of time it took from then to now when you couldn't even get a gauge off of me in the first 800 posts of the game before that.
Quote from AsianInvasion »
Quote from Iso »
Disagree.
Get over yourself.
Ad hom: Check.
Quote from AsianInvasion »
Quote from Iso »
so-content-many-wit-wow-doge.png
Do you have warty green skin and live under a bridge IRL too?
From memory (I'm gonna have to come back after work to skim the thread and see if there's any more on me in other places) A lot of the case on me is the obvious thing, which I've already discussed, and Iso with his scumslip theory.
As for the killjoy thing (augh I should be sleeping): Okay, so, there are a few possible things going on here.
The first possibility is that I named 4 scum of the 5 people I listed and killjoy, in his nervous haste, asked only why 4, as the 5th didn't register with him as scum.
It's happened before.
The second possibility is that because he is scum, and he knows there are 5 scum, he excludes himself mentally from the list as he's posting, asking me why I only think 4 people are scum (possibly because none of them are his buddies! unlikely, IMO) because he already knows he's scum.
It was really difficult for me to explain this - do you understand? It's a mindset thing - and definitely not a question I'd expect killjoy, of all people, to ask.
The third possibilty, and is more likely, is that I skimmed your post and only saw 4 names on my small phone. Which I think I told you.
As for the first two... Occum's Razor dude. You're making a lot of assumptions that you shouldn't be making.
First one: You say it's happened before... when? I've never seen that. As for the logic behind it... You claim it's a reaction to claiming that I and at least one of the others are scum. You've played with me before... how often do I get nervous? Moreover, how often do I get nervous in response to the first accusation of scumminess? I actually can't recall getting nervous ever when caught as scum... even in Supernatural I wasn't nervous (which was my first scum game). Finally... since you see nervousness in my response, can you explain where it is? Like show us why about that post reads as nervous to you?
As for the second one: You think I excluded myself from the list because... I know I'm scum? That doesn't make logical sense. You don't think I will keep in mind who is scum when posting,even in a "nervous haste"? I think Meg covered why this is a stretch as well.
First one: Don't remember what game, I've played 100+ forum Mafia games. But it's happened. As for how often you get nervous, I don't remember, since it feels like we haven't played together since CCMVI (is that correct?) and even longer since we've played together and you were scum. In fact, I don't even remember what game we played in together that you were scum in. Was it Peso? If so, I think I do remember you getting nervous, yes. As far as that post being nervous, the nervousness was in the haste of you posting before you counted the names properly - not the tone.
Second one: I said it was one of the possible explanations, the others being ones I also named. And no, people make dumb mistakes in nervous haste, especially when they're scum.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I don't typically like doing t/s lists day one of large games like this, there are a lot of moing variables and they're likely to change before being important, but Proph+you+SirChris is my autotown pile.
Why do you think I'm town?
Quote from dC »
...not a fan of that [redacted]. I also find both of those points you raise rather feeble - the former is glorified lurker-hunting, and the latter point is just nonsense. I remember Seppel playing the game quite actively in Survival Horror, as town.
Please read my follow up posts - I expounded upon the reasoning for both.
Why don't you like the [redacted]? It's something I want to see before the Day ends.
Quote from dC »
@Anyone who's played with DCIII: Is it his normal methodology to extrapolate scum motivation from a number of small points? He just did this in the endgame of CT3, and I'd like to know how usual this is for him.
This is normal for him - it annoyed me to no end in the last game I played with him (DCIII). I recommend reading his posts from Deus Ex - he tunneled on me to no end in that game.
I can see dkings's train of thought when he lists out his suspects, though I disagree with his Arian read. I'd expect him to have slipped already if he were scum after his performance in Winterfell, and his tone (reads as genuinely trying to help) feels different from scum!Arian, who mainly rebuffs attacks on him and posts perfunctory reads lists.
Quote from Wildfire »
I'm kind of surprised to see myself in Dkings' null list. I feel like I've done enough this game (including stuff he's pegging other people on, like Information in lieu of Analysis) that he should have SOME opinion on me.
Muh.
This is making me doubt myself on Wildfire a bit, though I'm reminded of scum!Natirasha in Social Engineering (who went out of his way to do this, IIRC).
Quote from Natirasha »
But I'm going to be a proxy for Proph this game, probably. Seppel, simply, feels *off*. That's in addition our previous history, which he's brushing off for no reason. But, I feel like Seppel and I are similar as players. He plays a similar low-info early game and has a penchant for gambitting and role actions. I feel, this game, he's trying to be rather manipulative and therefore scummy.
What is a proxy?
I agree with Seppel feeling off.
I'm not sure how I feel about killjoy completely ignoring the case on him and posting superficial catch-up posts.
Quote from Iso »
So you basically agree with Arian's interpretation of Seppel's meta? And what is your interpretation of Seppel's "plan" in this game? Show me everything you've seen that leads you to believe that he has ulterior motives.
I agree with Arian's interpretation of Seppel's meta.
The biggest thing that feels off to me about Seppel is how he cased Nati. Nati's play is pretty flippant and casing him D1 when Seppel *knows* about his playstyle being flippant feels disingenuous to me. To put it bluntly, it feels like he's picking low-hanging fruit.
I'm not sure how I feel about DCIII's post - part of me wants to assign town points because it /feels/ so transparent and feels like he's opening up his thought process for everyone to see. On the other hand, I'm very paranoid of DCIII and it kind of feels like an overreaction to dkings's pressure.
I guess I'm fine fencesitting here for now, but I need some insight on this post.
@Meg: What do you think of DCIII's #945, if you're willing to strain your eyes to read it?
Quote from Megiddo »
a thought just occurred to me that DCIII is trying to mudsling/discredit me with his large post.
Oh, hm.
---
I don't like how LnG completely disappeared in the background when pressure on him ceased.
I really need to solidify my opinion on AI and killjoy. I've misread them before as scum, and I'm not willing to make that mistake again.
I feel like I need to reread this game, and sort out the following pile of players:
AsianInvasion
Cythare
Rhand
HookerPunch
Killjoy
Iso
Sir Karn
rezombied
Niv
DCIII
desCoures
Problem is that half of that pile is lurking. Muh.
I'm a bit paranoid of how Iso is avoiding to provide any concrete opinions on /why/ he thinks I'm scum - I've engaged with him and all he says is "your posts are bad in a scum way" which is not helping. When Nati tried to ask him, he links his ISO, and when Nati asks again, he says he'll "condense the case" when he barely listed any reasoning as to why I'm scum /at all/.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Catching up. 10 pages read; need a break now.
Some things:
@Megiddo: were you drunk when you posted 35 – 36?
Why single out Wildfire for posting about mechanics in 63?
Was 81 sarcasm?
Reread your 93 and 206 please and explain me how these posts line up. (hint: they don't. You're defending Seppel for some reason and forget your own reasonings)
@someone who knows Seppel's meta: Seppel townclears Meg in #170. Does Seppel usually do that? I remembered him only calling scum on D1 and not town, but I might be wrong.
Also, in #201 he admits he might be wrong in a read. That's something else I never saw him doing iirc. Does he do that as town?
So far I have strong scumreads on Megiddo and Cythare. A weaker scumread on EtR and AI. Maybe also Seppel; that depends on the responses I get to the meta question.
I think my Proph scumread was wrong.
More later when I have the energy to continue reading.
I thought Killjoy's post was a slip for two reasons - one, because it felt like a "he's wrong about the size of our team" reaction because it didn't even occur to me prior to that that Iso would have listed those people meaning that it had to be that exact number of people, no more, no less. Two, because he miscounted the number of people that Iso had listed as scum, which made me think that he didn't actually care about or take time to consider who among that list Iso thought were scum, just saw his name and maybe another relevant name or two and reacted.
The thing I found strange about the situation is that no one was reacting to Iso's claim that it was a slip. He said that Killjoy slipped in #223 and I didn't see anyone mention it aside from Killjoy in #277 until I did in #285. And still few people have acknowledged the discussion - which makes me think there's probably some egg shell walking going on around that point.
Oh yeah, that was Killjoy who said that. Killjoy: Leaning scum.
AI is scum. If you see someone slip and think he's scum for it, then you don't forget who they were... Unless you aren't interested in finding scum.
First one: Don't remember what game, I've played 100+ forum Mafia games. dot dot dot But it's happened. As for how often you get nervous, I don't remember, since it feels like we haven't played together since CCMVI (is that correct?) and even longer since we've played together and you were scum. In fact, I don't even remember what game we played in together that you were scum in. Was it Peso? If so, I think I do remember you getting nervous, yes. As far as that post being nervous, the nervousness was in the haste of you posting before you counted the names properly - not the tone.
Second one: I said it was one of the possible explanations, the others being ones I also named. And no, people make dumb mistakes in nervous haste, especially when they're scum.
CCMVI I was scum with you, IIRC. That was the last time we played together/were scum, I think.
But haste to answer =/= nervousness. I saw a curiosity and asked about it.
But you're pushing a case based on a possible explanation. The burden of proof is on you if you're going to do that.
As for "Manders busy", I vaguely recall her doing that as scum. I will say a couple things to that: I'm not her; Her scumtells don't apply to me. Logically it's fallacious for sure. I will also say that saying I'm busy for the purpose to lurk just isn't something I would do. I play mafia to play, not lurk. Moreover, it's the exact opposite of my personality: I talk a lot. It's how I learn. It's how I understand things. If I'm not doing that, then I'm not going to be able to help my team effectively. Therefore lurking as either alignement gives me no advantage.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Oh
So about them prods.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
I mean, it was from like the page or two before and still relevant?
I'm pretty sure I've nailed you to the wall every time we've played together and you've been scum, except for Peso and that was just a bad game for me in general. Hell, I FOUGHT my scum read of you in Amistaria III because I kept telling myself there's no way you could be so painfully obviously scum, until it struck me that, hey, you actually were.
So, try again?
Compelling rebuttal!
And which do you think is more likely at this point? I'm curious, considering you've had to ask both Seppel and Megiddo for their reads on me, since you seem incapable of producing your own? Or were you just testing the waters to see if an Iso wagon was viable? Or are you that frightened of my scum game? (I'll give you a hint, it's not the latter, despite how badly I burned you in CCMVI - your derisive tone does not support that theory.)
Disagree.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/search?search-thread-id=563580&search-forum-id=&forum-scope=f&prefix=&display-type=0&search=&search-type=0&by-author=Iso&begin-date=&begin-time=&end-date=&end-time=&min-posts=&min-views=&prefix=&display-type=0&submit=y
Um, it's hard to push someone if you're dead.
So, you think Seppel and I are scumbuddies?
"I'm suspicious about Iso, so I'm going to vote for the wagon he started." How on earth do AI's posts make you feel better about him?
no u
That's okay. I'll make you a believer.
Nope! But I'm pretty likely to be an early kill in this game, so I don't want Killjoy to slip away before we kill off AI.
so-content-many-wit-wow-doge.png
You two have no taste in metal.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
He may be on a vacation or whatever, actually. I forget about those. But if he is not, failure.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Currently Playing:
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What parts of my AI push have you found particularly moving?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Your big post on this page highlights a lot of his weak defenses. Like the "good thing I'm not you" and the "no one can be 100% sure anyone is scum" bits. They just rub me the wrong way.
Chris: It's a decent case, but in my experience with a few games with Killjoy he tends to draw early heat almost as well as I do.
Currently Playing:
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EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Take a look at Night Mafia (he's Paper Punster in that game) where he's the day 1 kill.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
Killjoy, Natirasha, maybe DC3 or EtR. If any of them are/were on Wildfire.
Because of the time it happened. Correlation, causation.
Also I see Killjoy ignoring all of this.
Oh I see. You're comparing a basic to a specialty.
In a basic, there's just pure scumhunting to be had from all players. In a specialty, people argue about game mechanics so much that I tune out until a serious amount of time has passed. Then I go into hyperdrive and nail all the scum.
This is why I prefer replacing in to specialties instead of starting already in them. But hey, it's a Zindabad game, and I've never played a Zindabad game from the beginning, so I thought I'd give it a try.
I've never seen you as scum.
@Karn - to sum that post: I'm town, Meg is wrong and frustrating, I am suspicios of Seppel and Iso, Killjoy is also probably scum. AI, Proph, and Wildfire are still people I have an eye on but I also have a feeling that some of the folks in the background right now need more scrutiny (that part wasn't in the post).
@Iso - Why do you find it hard to believe that I could think you and Seppel were both scum? Regarding AI - I liked how he wasn't backing down from you and seemed assured in his responses and wasn't backing away but was pushing back on you in ways that seemed like he was genuinely skeptical of your play.
@Seppel - You're missing the point (or ignoring it) of my question. What do you think my motivation would be for going off on Megiddo after he voted Killjoy such that the timing is suspicious to you? In order for the timing to be suspicious there would have to be a motive that would make sense to you.
I'll give some thought to your second point.
That line about "have you seen me play like this as scum" was directed at DK because he said he hadn't seen me play like this and specified as town when he hasn't seen me play like this as either alignment and he's seen both... so I wanted to know why he singled that out.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
2. Discrediting will take more time to explain. I will dig into that later.
3. I don't care who you were replying to because it's irrelevant. You are making an argument that I (and others) have already established is scummy. I'm pointing it out in the funniest way possible, which is by posting a post where I said that I would lynch the next person to do something. I mean, I did this better in Smalltown Swap with Karn and the "secret word" thing (though I was wrong there IIRC), but hey. Something about rakes.
Unvote.
So...that whole going around in circles thing? Yeah. We need to pick a wagon and stick to it.
@DKings:
1. I'm useless on Day 1 because I can't generally read people. I need interactions and facts to go off of before I can do anything. Analyzing the location mechanic is something I can do because we have the facts for that in the setup. Furthermore, if I -hadn't- made that post, we would've selected a subpar location and probably gotten screwed for it in the long run. Sure, it's a post scum could make. I've taken a lot of heat for it already, and I'd be surprised if I don't take more from it as the game progresses. I don't care. It was still correct to analyze the mechanic and it was still correct to post my conclusions.
2. I don't scumhunt on day 1 unless I have a 'gotcha.' If you have a problem with my defending people on D1, tough *****. It's what I do.
3. see also: Survival Horror, in which I pushed Seppel -hard- because I was 99.5% convinced he was scum, and it blew up in my face just as hard. I don't think I've ever been correct about Iso's alignment on d1-3. There's no point in my trying to unravel the mysteries of Iso and Seppel on day 1 in a -21 player game-. They'll come out in the wash after a few Days of content, interactions, night actions, etc.
4a. Cythare is still a dude.
4b. It's Day 1 (seeing a theme yet?). The only people who are certain of alignments are the scum. If I said I was certain that Cythare is scum, I would be a liar. I -believe- that he's scum. I could be wrong. Hell, with my track record, I probably am. Sorry, not sorry.
5. If you're that convinced that I'm scum, lynch me / shoot me / whatever. I'm completely unconcerned because A: I'm town, and B: if I get mislynched in the early Days of the game, I'll come back Obi-wan-style for Ghostlands anyway, at a point in the game at which I'll be substantially more useful. It's a waste, but that's your prerogative, not mine.
While I've got your attention, explain your Karn read.
I'm also going to be at GP Worcester!
On a, I am somewhat ambivalent on this - I am mistaken for a woman online a lot, because I am apparently wordy and polite.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
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Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Trufax: I thought Arnnaria was female in my first game with him. Part of this may have been because his avatar was a Chansey, and all Chanseys are female.
Anyhow, back to game relevance. We've locked in our move, so can we please get some traction on wagons? I'd really like to see AI hang.
Currently Playing:
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No motive, just basic human panic.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
Where did I say I found it hard to believe? Why do you keep putting words into my mouth? Why are you so concerned what people who aren't addressing you think of you?
Regarding AI...did you miss the many points he backed down on, or were you just "not counting" them for your convenience?
I suppose I'm a woman, too, given that my avatar has been Nadia Esra, Flandre Scarlet, and is currently the cover of Kamelot's "A Cold Winter's Night" live DVD...which also appears to have a woman on it.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Oh hey remember that time you called everyone on the playerlist scum and you walked away patting yourself on the back for catching the scumteam?
Oh wait, that's every game you play (and some you don't).
This isn't the first time we've had this conversation, and knowing you, it won't be the last.
You have to have a relevant point for me to consider providing a rebuttal.
*****ty town.
Get over yourself.
Do you have warty green skin and live under a bridge IRL too?
People in Hell want ice water.
Iso, can you do me a favor and lay out the proph case in, say, three sentences?
Either way, we're all gonna burn
The third possibilty, and is more likely, is that I skimmed your post and only saw 4 names on my small phone. Which I think I told you.
As for the first two... Occum's Razor dude. You're making a lot of assumptions that you shouldn't be making.
First one: You say it's happened before... when? I've never seen that. As for the logic behind it... You claim it's a reaction to claiming that I and at least one of the others are scum. You've played with me before... how often do I get nervous? Moreover, how often do I get nervous in response to the first accusation of scumminess? I actually can't recall getting nervous ever when caught as scum... even in Supernatural I wasn't nervous (which was my first scum game). Finally... since you see nervousness in my response, can you explain where it is? Like show us why about that post reads as nervous to you?
As for the second one: You think I excluded myself from the list because... I know I'm scum? That doesn't make logical sense. You don't think I will keep in mind who is scum when posting,even in a "nervous haste"? I think Meg covered why this is a stretch as well.
When I get off of work at 1am, I'll have dinner, then come right back here and make sure that I'm covering what you guys need from me.I'll likely only have about 2 hours after dinner, fyi.
You were extremely wrong and I even almost got you lynched for it iirc.
So, let's see...not addressing the point, and ad hom: Check.
Handwave and and hom: Check.
Ad hom: Check.
So, at what point between asking Seppel and Megiddo what their reads on me and now did you decide I was town? What post, or parts of posts, specifically, led you to this conclusion? Why couldn't you figure it out before asking Seppel and Megiddo? I'm asking because I don't believe that you of all people were able to make such a snap read on me in the amount of time it took from then to now when you couldn't even get a gauge off of me in the first 800 posts of the game before that.
Ad hom: Check.
Ad hom: Check.
As much as this made me laugh, handwave: Check.
I think that about sums up AI's defense pretty well. Meaning...he doesn't have a real defense.
That's a shame. Roy Khan is a fantastic vocalist.
I'll condense the Proph case for you if you can tell me exactly what posts I made it in.
First one: Don't remember what game, I've played 100+ forum Mafia games. But it's happened. As for how often you get nervous, I don't remember, since it feels like we haven't played together since CCMVI (is that correct?) and even longer since we've played together and you were scum. In fact, I don't even remember what game we played in together that you were scum in. Was it Peso? If so, I think I do remember you getting nervous, yes. As far as that post being nervous, the nervousness was in the haste of you posting before you counted the names properly - not the tone.
Second one: I said it was one of the possible explanations, the others being ones I also named. And no, people make dumb mistakes in nervous haste, especially when they're scum.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Why do you think I'm town?
Please read my follow up posts - I expounded upon the reasoning for both.
Why don't you like the [redacted]? It's something I want to see before the Day ends.
This is normal for him - it annoyed me to no end in the last game I played with him (DCIII). I recommend reading his posts from Deus Ex - he tunneled on me to no end in that game.
I can see dkings's train of thought when he lists out his suspects, though I disagree with his Arian read. I'd expect him to have slipped already if he were scum after his performance in Winterfell, and his tone (reads as genuinely trying to help) feels different from scum!Arian, who mainly rebuffs attacks on him and posts perfunctory reads lists.
Muh.
This is making me doubt myself on Wildfire a bit, though I'm reminded of scum!Natirasha in Social Engineering (who went out of his way to do this, IIRC).
What is a proxy?
I agree with Seppel feeling off.
I'm not sure how I feel about killjoy completely ignoring the case on him and posting superficial catch-up posts.
I agree with Arian's interpretation of Seppel's meta.
The biggest thing that feels off to me about Seppel is how he cased Nati. Nati's play is pretty flippant and casing him D1 when Seppel *knows* about his playstyle being flippant feels disingenuous to me. To put it bluntly, it feels like he's picking low-hanging fruit.
I'm not sure how I feel about DCIII's post - part of me wants to assign town points because it /feels/ so transparent and feels like he's opening up his thought process for everyone to see. On the other hand, I'm very paranoid of DCIII and it kind of feels like an overreaction to dkings's pressure.
I guess I'm fine fencesitting here for now, but I need some insight on this post.
@Meg: What do you think of DCIII's #945, if you're willing to strain your eyes to read it?Oh, hm.
---
I don't like how LnG completely disappeared in the background when pressure on him ceased.
I really need to solidify my opinion on AI and killjoy. I've misread them before as scum, and I'm not willing to make that mistake again.
I feel like I need to reread this game, and sort out the following pile of players:
AsianInvasion
Cythare
Rhand
HookerPunch
Killjoy
Iso
Sir Karn
rezombied
Niv
DCIII
desCoures
Problem is that half of that pile is lurking. Muh.
I'm a bit paranoid of how Iso is avoiding to provide any concrete opinions on /why/ he thinks I'm scum - I've engaged with him and all he says is "your posts are bad in a scum way" which is not helping. When Nati tried to ask him, he links his ISO, and when Nati asks again, he says he'll "condense the case" when he barely listed any reasoning as to why I'm scum /at all/.
That list is massive and reads a giant fence-sit.
Hence why I said I needed to read the game - to solidify my opinions on those players.
Half of those players have been lurking, and half I haven't been paying much attention to.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Some things:
@Megiddo: were you drunk when you posted 35 – 36?
Why single out Wildfire for posting about mechanics in 63?
Was 81 sarcasm?
Reread your 93 and 206 please and explain me how these posts line up. (hint: they don't. You're defending Seppel for some reason and forget your own reasonings)
@someone who knows Seppel's meta: Seppel townclears Meg in #170. Does Seppel usually do that? I remembered him only calling scum on D1 and not town, but I might be wrong.
Also, in #201 he admits he might be wrong in a read. That's something else I never saw him doing iirc. Does he do that as town?
So far I have strong scumreads on Megiddo and Cythare. A weaker scumread on EtR and AI. Maybe also Seppel; that depends on the responses I get to the meta question.
I think my Proph scumread was wrong.
More later when I have the energy to continue reading.
AI is scum. If you see someone slip and think he's scum for it, then you don't forget who they were... Unless you aren't interested in finding scum.
But haste to answer =/= nervousness. I saw a curiosity and asked about it.
But you're pushing a case based on a possible explanation. The burden of proof is on you if you're going to do that.
As for "Manders busy", I vaguely recall her doing that as scum. I will say a couple things to that: I'm not her; Her scumtells don't apply to me. Logically it's fallacious for sure. I will also say that saying I'm busy for the purpose to lurk just isn't something I would do. I play mafia to play, not lurk. Moreover, it's the exact opposite of my personality: I talk a lot. It's how I learn. It's how I understand things. If I'm not doing that, then I'm not going to be able to help my team effectively. Therefore lurking as either alignement gives me no advantage.