@dkings:
You do realize that hansanator had 3 posts at the time, right? There wasn't exactly a large sample size to work with, and I stand by that post of his being poor.
Your characterization of my response to Sir Chris is inaccurate. Early on in a game, I feel it is worth pursuing/pressuring people who make swipes at your posts if they're extreme. He called my post "empty" because I wanted to not decide on a move at the time, which felt like a pretty clear swipe.
Also, what part of "in addition" was unclear? That was a simple logic leap.
Also, how is #570 a ridiculous reason for disliking hans? In my experience, townhunting is scummy. He made no indications of his scum reads at all, but said "these guys are town". That reads to me like safe scum play - he provides some reads, but doesn't have to worry about giving any compromising info about his "scum reads".
"Townhunting" isn't an accurate word for what he was doing, but I stand by the general idea of leaning towards giving info on your town reads without any indications of scum reads being a scummy thing.
I'm kind of surprised to see myself in Dkings' null list. I feel like I've done enough this game (including stuff he's pegging other people on, like Information in lieu of Analysis) that he should have SOME opinion on me.
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Also, how is #570 a ridiculous reason for disliking hans? In my experience, townhunting is scummy. He made no indications of his scum reads at all, but said "these guys are town". That reads to me like safe scum play - he provides some reads, but doesn't have to worry about giving any compromising info about his "scum reads".
The part I did not like about 570 was the focus on Hans failing to vote for a location change despite having announced a preference. I don't see how any kind of mindset is taken from that.
I'm kind of surprised to see myself in Dkings' null list. I feel like I've done enough this game (including stuff he's pegging other people on, like Information in lieu of Analysis) that he should have SOME opinion on me.
I'm not worried about you right now. I've got enough experience with you to know to ignore weak scumtells and I haven't seen anything noteworthy except for a bit of early self-consciousness. Also, I was not fond of the early wagon on you.
Also, how is #570 a ridiculous reason for disliking hans? In my experience, townhunting is scummy. He made no indications of his scum reads at all, but said "these guys are town". That reads to me like safe scum play - he provides some reads, but doesn't have to worry about giving any compromising info about his "scum reads".
The part I did not like about 570 was the focus on Hans failing to vote for a location change despite having announced a preference. I don't see how any kind of mindset is taken from that.
It felt like he was playing it safe - he asked why we hadn't decided on a location yet, and then didn't take any action himself to rectify the situation.
Natirasha was in Winterfell? I really don't remember that game at all. You'll have to provide examples.
You obviously know I'm not going to pull out a months-old game to help prove it, but, yes, I replaced in early day one into a slot with no posts. Then you declared me town for lurking and such. It's curious.
Unsure. DCIII is an out-of-left field scumread this game, and dkingsland has actual arguments behind it. For scum replacing in it's a bold stance to take.
The other reads are more in line with the town's views but this isn't like pinkfloyd in RPP where he replaced in and literally just posted a list that was the prevailing town opinion at the time.
What makes you say that this is a miss?
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
But I'm going to be a proxy for Proph this game, probably. Seppel, simply, feels *off*. That's in addition our previous history, which he's brushing off for no reason. But, I feel like Seppel and I are similar as players. He plays a similar low-info early game and has a penchant for gambitting and role actions. I feel, this game, he's trying to be rather manipulative and therefore scummy.
For what it's worth, I wouldn't have voted him if I wasn't tired or at Quakecon.
So, apperently some people are taking issue with my math being off about the initial world, in which I said we'd lose 8 Vitality. Everyone who takes issue: Why is that a thing that scum does? I'm not seeing the logic on that.Also, it wasn't THAT off. everyone with 25 would lose 2+(25%*25)=2+7=9. Niv would lose more, and Meg would lose less but still.
The initial jump on Chris around post 44 seems misguided. I understood what he was trying to say, and the reasons people are voting him (as of 44) don't really make him scum.
I already said I liked Arian for his 80.
Meg v. Wildfire was funny to read.
AI's 144 is weird. Why are we lynching Wildfire because "Mad as in angry? Nah. Mad as in crazy? Well, we're all a little mad, aren't we?" was his answer?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
There is also that.
I'm pretty sure everybody (except Seppel who seems determined not to read up on how the mechanics work) knew upon reading the thread the first time that we had to get off of the First Halls today.
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KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Not everyone catches everything, even if it's obvious.
My thought when writing it was that "Hey, this is a thing. Other people should know this." without really thinking about whether it was obvious or not.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Natirasha was in Winterfell? I really don't remember that game at all. You'll have to provide examples.
You obviously know I'm not going to pull out a months-old game to help prove it, but, yes, I replaced in early day one into a slot with no posts. Then you declared me town for lurking and such. It's curious.
Well clearly you were acting townie then.
You can't just say "Hey I was acting one way in a different game and I was town." That's completely irrelevant to your behavior in this game, where you end conversations prematurely and back yourself up with nothing.
I wasn't even voting you for lurking, yet that's the only thing you feel like defending yourself with.
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100% to me means that if you are wrong you would not mind being shot for it.
I don't like when people act more certain than they can reasonably be, but the case should be interesting.
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@Iso - you should know better. I don't get emotional in mafia normally which is something I think you've commented on before. I'd have more composure if it was a "worried about my alignment" kind of thing. Whatever, wifom you'll say, but you should know that it's true. Also, you mischaracterized my responses as fear. They were anger and they were angry because Meg has misapplied this bogus activity tell to me which is wrong for a few reasons but also makes the game feel like a chore and then when I had more time to sit down and chat about it he was cagy about his read... and I'm generally friendly with Meg so that's what's really driving the frustration. Basically, he's made this game all about him and is being incredibly annoying.
I feel like he's being his persona and is trying to show off a bit - I feel like you, who normally trumpets his ability to read emotion well, are being disingenuous with your "fear" line.
Wait...what? I don't remember directing anything to you and I certainly can't find it if so.
They are both fine candidates for a Day 1 lynch, especially given AI's most recent posts.
> asks Iso for rationale
> handwaves
> doubles down by saying I'm even scummier than before
> seemslegit.jpg
2legit2quit
Quote from AsianInvasion »
Quote from Iso »
Why haven't you been reading Seppel's posts, either?
If you can find a post where Seppel commits to an Iso read you will have proven your point. Otherwise, this is empty mudslinging.
*Gestures towards Seppel's post wherein aforementioned post is quoted* I presume my point has been proven, then.
Quote from AsianInvasion »
Quote from Iso »
Really.
I'm aiming for survivability?
Please tell me the following:
* Where I am aiming for survivability
* Why you think Megiddo's post regarding the scumteam and my own alignment was anything but a joke
* The typical tell associated with somebody [seriously] bringing up a 3rd party
* The two players who propagated the "Iso is a Neutral" theory the strongest in Seasons Mafia (I'll give you a hint, they were both scum)
TIA.
This playstyle change, which you acknowledge, makes you active but not in the typical obnoxious way that sees you lynched. More Nny than Iso, really.
Why would you immediately assume that Meg was joking? Granted, "theory" may have been a strong word, but you seem awfully touchy about this subject.
That tell was already brought up this game and it only works if the player in question is SK-hunting rather than scum-hunting.
Cool gambler's fallacy, bro.
* Have I not committed to hard reads? Have I not presented my cases and bulldogged said reads? All that I can really see is that I'm posting more sparsely, that I've read less, and that I'm being less obnoxious in general. That necessitates that I'm trying for survival when my IRL circumstances are what's affecting my posting?
* Because I know Megiddo and to suggest such a thing at this juncture seriously seemed pretty ludicrous. Touchy? Of course I'm touchy, I got mudslinged to death by you and DRey in Seasons with the exact same push - that of me being a Neutral. You were both scum.
* Not necessarily.
* It's not gambler's fallacy - it's a meta call. How you would even think otherwise baffles me and strikes me as disingenuous.
Quote from AsianInvasion »
Quote from Iso »
One more thing:
Why is your Killjoy vote an afterthought?
My response to Sir Chris was in the middle of the post and I didn't want to vote in the middle of a post. By the time I had finished the post I forgot to add it to the end. Like, really?
Yes, really. Sure, it's not a strong tell. But it was part of how I caught Void in Deitriptychos. 8D
Iso
>No, I definitely agree with the vote rationale - it just seems entirely unnatural in its timing for someone who claims to read the flow of the game (or was that Asenion?). Regardless, it gives me feelings of my vote as Nny on Void in Day 1 of The Walking Dead Mafia. I knew he was about to get caught by Rhand, so I moved my vote there and tried to take credit for the wagon before Rhand could take it away from me since he was going to die once Rhand cased him.
Ok, that's fair and I think good reasoning. Proph replaces in and picks out not who he actually thinks is scum but who he thinks we think is scum, and plops his vote there early to get credit. Y/N?
Not exactly - that would be what I'm saying if Proph is town, but I don't think he is, so it's more like: Proph comes in and picks out a scumbuddy that we think is scum and are going to lynch and plops his vote there early to get credit. Make sense?
How strong is your feeling of scumSeppel, at least in regards to the level of derp/playing the game, here?
Before the game began, I had a conversation with Megiddo on how he had such a strong town read on Seppel in Winterfell when he did /stone cold nothing/ in that game and I scumread him for it. He stated that scum!Seppel has a plan, while town!Seppel flails around and does nothing useful.
I feel Seppel has a plan this game, and that's part of why I think he deserves closer scrutiny.
So you basically agree with Arian's interpretation of Seppel's meta? And what is your interpretation of Seppel's "plan" in this game? Show me everything you've seen that leads you to believe that he has ulterior motives.
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Karn, when is the last time you provided any meaningful content? Instead of parsing my words perhaps try to do something.
But I always find it interesting when people say stuff like '100%' it shows bold confidence, and I like the perspective of people who are bold. AI could be scum, true, but I don't think he is the best case.
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Killjoy I can't speak for anyone else but I didn't even think about the math. I just felt it was a stupidly obvious thing to say. "I don't want everyone to lose 8 vitality" like, uh, duh? <_<.
Also I don't know what to make of the fact that every time I find someone suspicious they seem to think I am town. Like, literally. No idea what I should make of that.
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God has came down from the mount and told me I have to produce content or face replacement.
Hmph, I like my vote as it stands actually.
Wait a second...
I must have missed when this happened, but I thought you had something that prevented you from voting normally.
That or he slipped HARD and outed his intention to take up space without doing anything relevant.
This is AI's scum M.O. He takes drive-by potshots, very rarely pushes his own positions and vote rationale (instead preferring to piggyback off of others), and is just all-around a completely different AI from townAI.
@Iso: ...wait, when did I suddenly become the expert on you? Because I don't recall in the least where I supposedly started reading you correctly all the time. If I read anyone mostly accurately, it's Cyan, not you.
I'm pretty sure you've read me correctly in every single game we've played together; maybe once or twice, you were off. Amusingly, seeing as you read Cyan well, Cyan has a similar record of reading me like such. In fairness, I did dupe you in my responses to your initial push on me in Ataghan, but you caught me early on in Day 1.
I love how DC3 is starting to freak out after Megs votes Killjoy.
lol at this attempt to link me to Killjoy. Please explain why you think Killjoy has something to do with my discussion with Meg.
This rubs me the wrong way.
Quote from DCIII »
@Iso - back when Karn said we should lynch AI or Proph, there was a wagon forming on AI and you pushed back, saying that Killjoy was scum too. At that point in the game, why did you prefer to keep your vote on Killjoy?
Because few, if any, people saw scumKilljoy, yet a lot of people felt AI was scum - meaning if I die for my reads toNight, I'll at least have taken out a member of the scum team that would have otherwise been ignored had I not brought him into the light - and AI is probably getting lynched at some point, anyway, so it doesn't disrupt the flow too terribly.
aI: If you hated that post so much, why did you never say aything before now?
Cause you're his buddy and he wasn't sure he wanted to bus that early on?
Now that there are more people on your wagon he thought it was a good time to hop on and claim that he suspected you all along!
[citation needed]
I'm pretty sure I've made this exact passive-aggressive handwave as scum to defend myself in the past.
@DK: Arian isn't scum. He's gotten burned pushing me one too many times in games because I pushed back harder each time. I feel it's a town wariness/weariness, not a scum nervousness. His tone suggests my theory is correct.
But I'm going to be a proxy for Proph this game, probably. Seppel, simply, feels *off*. That's in addition our previous history, which he's brushing off for no reason. But, I feel like Seppel and I are similar as players. He plays a similar low-info early game and has a penchant for gambitting and role actions. I feel, this game, he's trying to be rather manipulative and therefore scummy.
For what it's worth, I wouldn't have voted him if I wasn't tired or at Quakecon.
But Proph is scum. Why the hell would you give him your vote?
So, apperently some people are taking issue with my math being off about the initial world, in which I said we'd lose 8 Vitality. Everyone who takes issue: Why is that a thing that scum does? I'm not seeing the logic on that.Also, it wasn't THAT off. everyone with 25 would lose 2+(25%*25)=2+7=9. Niv would lose more, and Meg would lose less but still.
The initial jump on Chris around post 44 seems misguided. I understood what he was trying to say, and the reasons people are voting him (as of 44) don't really make him scum.
I already said I liked Arian for his 80.
Meg v. Wildfire was funny to read.
AI's 144 is weird. Why are we lynching Wildfire because "Mad as in angry? Nah. Mad as in crazy? Well, we're all a little mad, aren't we?" was his answer?
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Karn, when is the last time you provided any meaningful content? Instead of parsing my words perhaps try to do something.
But I always find it interesting when people say stuff like '100%' it shows bold confidence, and I like the perspective of people who are bold. AI could be scum, true, but I don't think he is the best case.
This is AI's scum M.O. He takes drive-by potshots, very rarely pushes his own positions and vote rationale (instead preferring to piggyback off of others), and is just all-around a completely different AI from townAI.
More like CBFAI. I don't think you know how to read me at all.
Quote from Iso »
I'm pretty sure I've made this exact passive-aggressive handwave as scum to defend myself in the past.
Good thing I'm not you! Thanks for telling the class how to catch you this game.
Quote from Iso »
That's fine, I'll take a bullet if I'm wrong about AI.
As satisfying that would be, it doesn't help us any if you're just wrong-headed town.
Quote from Iso »
Am I more certain than I reasonably can be?
Outside of a cop investigation in a Basic no townie can be 100% sure anyone is scum.
I love how DC3 is starting to freak out after Megs votes Killjoy.
lol at this attempt to link me to Killjoy. Please explain why you think Killjoy has something to do with my discussion with Meg.
Because of the time it happened. Correlation, causation.
Instead of saying "you're wrong" in so many words, you could explain why you're acting this way, in your own words.
Okay, more on that coming but, my question to you is, why do you think the time it happened relates to Killjoy? What would you see as my motivation in that scenario? I can understand the broader concept from people without much experience with me that I might have been responding to Meg having a scum read on me - but linking me to Killjoy I don't get at all and makes me think that you have a reason to do so.
@DK - So, I did vote Wildfire in 187 when I made the case on him and when I cased Killjoy it was in the same post I cased AI and I voted for him in that post, so both of those points are wrong. Also with the quote that you quoted for Killjoy, I explained why I thought it was a slip later when Meg asked about it. I didn't explain it initially because I thought it was weird that it had been so long that Iso had said it and, other than Killjoy himself, I think I was the first person to acknowledge it... and I wanted to see why it seemed like people were tip-toeing around the point.
As for Seppel - none of my case on him had anything to do with him jumping around. I don't remember him forgetting why he voted for players - I especially don't remember him taking pressure off of people he voted like he did with HookerPunch before he got an answer. Like, I remember him voting Raptor and me until he saw our responses to pressure and I remember him hopping around between Asenion and Haiiro... but I don't remember him forgetting why he was voting those players. In fact, my impression that game was that he gave the impression of chaos but that little was getting by him. The HP vote seemed like a observation I'm used to seeing from him, forgetting about it entirely is not something I remember him doing - and the way he keeps stressing how little of the game he's read feels like he's really trying to emphasize that point. Also, I've read plenty where he's basically gone through the game mechanics in obsessive detail, so him seemingly forcibly removed from them in this game feels very off. Plus, his stressing to Meg twice that he thinks Meg is town also seemed like a strange play for Seppel who I feel like more often doesn't care what people think of the way he's playing. In general, it feels like he cares more about the perception of him in this game than I remember. I stand by this read and his trying to link my interactions with Meg as having something to do with Killjoy feels very off.
As to not playing as I normally do as town, that's true. But I'll ask you this - have you seen me play like this as scum, either? You haven't because I've never played like this. Why did you just specify that I haven't played like this as town when I have no games like this and you've seen my scum game? Knowing what you know of me (and, for context, DK and I have played a ton of games together considering the total number of games I've played), do you think it more or less likely that I'd approach things so different in a game like this as scum or town?
Since we're talking about it, here's the overall context as to why I was so annoyed with Meg and I've been playing differently:
Background - Meg and I have become friendly after Futurama and we were on the same scum team in Xymande and he put a lot of effort into reviewing a game I was developing and we've just generally chatted Mafia.
A little while ago I was asked to replace into CT3. I was really looking forward to playing this game as I'd heard great things about Zinda games but I was also excited to get asked to play in that one because around a year ago I had never played a game of mafia in my life, so I thought it was a cool thing and was excited to rep MTGS, and I accepted knowing that it would make it less likely that I would get picked to play in this game. I was on vacation and responded saying that I'd need to get home to really read but I'd be happy to do it and was told no problem. Then when I got back, I was told that they'd gone with a different player with a history of replacements (and recent activity issues) so I was out again. That sucked and I was bummed because I'd wrapped my head around playing in that one and had started reading a little here and there when I could, but I thought, okay - better chance to get into this game.
So then I started playing this game and I think you'd probably agree that the beginning of this game is more like my normal game - but then, a little while in, I was told that the other person flaked out and asked to replace into CT3 again. By this time, I was spending most of my down time house hunting and had basically just closed on a new home. I said it probably wasn't a good time for me because I was at my game limit and I had this other stuff going on but asked if there were other alternatives. Was told that the other person they had asked could only do it as a last resort, so I said I'd do it, happy to but also way too stretched. Put almost all of my mafia time there, reading the game and needing to be fairly active based on the game state... so I focused little on my other games during that time, which is what Meg picked up on here.
If you go and read Xymande, which was my first scum game, Meg told me that I needed to post more in that game because I wasn't in the top 3 or something and I'm normally a more high frequency poster. But if you look at my response to him it was basically, don't worry about that, my style is less to do with number of posts and more that I usually am a higher contributor from a content standpoint (as an aside, this also has to do with game state, I'm normally less frequent early in games and more frequent as the game progresses). I also told him in that thread that it wouldn't be good if I straight lurked. So when he made that comment to me, he made it directly to me in a way that made me think he was trying to communicate directly to me i.e. he wasn't sold on the theory yet but wanted my reaction, which is why I responded as I did. I didn't agree with his premise (which I said later) because I think his conceptualization of how I was "supposed" to play was based mostly on an end game state in Futurama where I posted VERY frequently because I had him pegged as scum and he was trying to get me lynched for the win (which he did), but, he was right that I was participating less than I probably normally would and I didn't know if he was thinking I was lurking. So I let him know that I was moving and if he opened his eyes (i.e. looked at what was going on in other games in progress) he'd know what was up - because I didn't see the point in going into the whole "your theory is bogus" argument because the reason for my play had everything to do with my OOG stuff and CT3 so it was easier just to make him aware that what he thought he was seeing had nothing to do with anything going on in game.
So then Arian brought it up and Meg outright said what it was saying that I provide "less content" when I'm scum... which was also wrong (look at Xymande and CT3... plenty of content) which is why I said I disagreed with his premise at that point, but also explained the other stuff going on with me at the time.
At this point I was starting to get annoyed because when trying to keep up with this thread it seemed like every other post was Meg's and some of them were solid analysis but some of them were just him stroking himself off, and he kept complaining about how no one else was posting content - even after you move you still have to unpack, etc, etc, so I was working, coming home, unpacking, etc - so keeping up to speed with this game, at this point, at the pace that he was driving and expecting via an incorrect tell, was obnoxious and felt like a chore. Plus, he was making other comments that were vague in his Meg way like "isn't helping you much." I'm also annoyed at this point because I have a solid town read on him so I was thinking that we could play off of each other if he'd figure out I was town already.
So, when I got online the other night and he was on, I figured that we could just suss it out in real time - and that's when I got his cagy Meginess which was enough already.
So, yeah, that's the background behind why I've been playing differently this game and why I was so annoyed the other night. One last point, I'm the kind of person who (and I would assume that both Meg and Proph would be able to attest to this, though I'm still in wait and see mode with Proph) really cares about these (which is why I wanted to put effort into CT3 and why I focused there so much because it was so late in the game). My thought was that I could let my focus slide a bit more in my other games while I was dealing with everything else going on and then reprioritize later on - but if I had a scum team in this game that was counting on me, there's no way I'd have drawn so much attention to myself and I would have just made it work. Maybe they'll back me up on that, maybe they won't - but I'm pretty sure that OOG they'd know it was true.
On that note, DK is probably town? The past two games we've played together he's been scum and has mostly tried to avoid me. It makes sense that he's thrown by the way I'm playing but the rest of his case is just factually incorrect and feels off at points like saying I've never played this way as town when the reality is that the "as town" part could be left off of that sentence. Maybe he's seeing the momentum and trying to be opportunistic with it, but I don't think so - he's more focused on meaningful types of things and has more of a purpose than he does when he's scum.
@Cythare - what would you expect from me in terms of trying to figure out why Meg is scum reading me and what are you basing that on?
@Iso - you did direct something at me (indirectly) asking to Chris or AI why it wouldn't make sense that I'd be nervous as scum wondering what Meg thought of me, painting my interaction with him in the light of my being afraid I was going to be caught - and my point was that all of that was anger/annoyance, not nervousness. And, I think you've probably seen enough of me to think better of analyzing it that way and, you usually talk about being able to analyze emotion well and have mentioned that you have trouble reading players like me (and Antny) in the past because of our normal lack of emotion. So, basically, your line on that and your approach to try to talk Chris off of his opinion on that I find suspicious.
Re: your response about AI and Killjoy - because it feels unnatural in looking back at it. You'd already made your point that you thought KJ was scum. There was no momentum on Killjoy. Karn was saying to lynch AI who you thought was scum and the lead wagon was on him. You later called AI obvscum and a couple of times indicated that both he or Killjoy were good lynches - so it seems off to me that you'd decide to take a stand there and not vote AI. It seems more like an opportunity to keep the wagon moving on a player you were sure was scum. You could have always made a case on KJ or reiterated your thoughts again if the AI wagon went through. That and Seppel linking me to Killjoy... the Killjoy wagon has a purposeful feel to it.
I think it probably means he's scum - and his early play, Chris's post on him, and the succinct nature of his catch up (I'm used to him being more elaborate and free with his posting) all jive with it.
Unvote: Vote Killjoy
I feel a little better about AI based on his recent interactions with Iso (the ones a few pages ago more than the just no ones). I'm suspicious of both Seppel and Iso, still watching Proph, notice that Wildfire has gotten much more quiet now that he's under less suspicion - strongest town reads at the moment on Meg, and both Sirs.
Iso I don't believe in 100% unless it is a clear contradiction of fact or a power was involved somewhere.
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This kind of hand-waving is not his style.
You do realize that hansanator had 3 posts at the time, right? There wasn't exactly a large sample size to work with, and I stand by that post of his being poor.
Your characterization of my response to Sir Chris is inaccurate. Early on in a game, I feel it is worth pursuing/pressuring people who make swipes at your posts if they're extreme. He called my post "empty" because I wanted to not decide on a move at the time, which felt like a pretty clear swipe.
Also, what part of "in addition" was unclear? That was a simple logic leap.
Also, how is #570 a ridiculous reason for disliking hans? In my experience, townhunting is scummy. He made no indications of his scum reads at all, but said "these guys are town". That reads to me like safe scum play - he provides some reads, but doesn't have to worry about giving any compromising info about his "scum reads".
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The part I did not like about 570 was the focus on Hans failing to vote for a location change despite having announced a preference. I don't see how any kind of mindset is taken from that.
Care to engage me on what you disagree with?
I'm not worried about you right now. I've got enough experience with you to know to ignore weak scumtells and I haven't seen anything noteworthy except for a bit of early self-consciousness. Also, I was not fond of the early wagon on you.
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I was thinking of just gambiting voteless earlier, but my multiple week hiatus kinda made me forget.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Either way, we're all gonna burn
This was #145.
I guess it says you can't *really* vote, not can't vote at all, but I am a bit suspicious.
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Either way, we're all gonna burn
Either way, we're all gonna burn
The other reads are more in line with the town's views but this isn't like pinkfloyd in RPP where he replaced in and literally just posted a list that was the prevailing town opinion at the time.
What makes you say that this is a miss?
Walk me through your scum read on Seppel please, since you apparently find him worth spending one of your limited votes on.
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But I'm going to be a proxy for Proph this game, probably. Seppel, simply, feels *off*. That's in addition our previous history, which he's brushing off for no reason. But, I feel like Seppel and I are similar as players. He plays a similar low-info early game and has a penchant for gambitting and role actions. I feel, this game, he's trying to be rather manipulative and therefore scummy.
For what it's worth, I wouldn't have voted him if I wasn't tired or at Quakecon.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Either way, we're all gonna burn
My ability is publically confirmable, though.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Either way, we're all gonna burn
The initial jump on Chris around post 44 seems misguided. I understood what he was trying to say, and the reasons people are voting him (as of 44) don't really make him scum.
I already said I liked Arian for his 80.
Meg v. Wildfire was funny to read.
AI's 144 is weird. Why are we lynching Wildfire because "Mad as in angry? Nah. Mad as in crazy? Well, we're all a little mad, aren't we?" was his answer?
Still like DCIII's 187
Wildfire seems like he's being himself.
This is my notes up to 233. Will continue soon.
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I'm pretty sure everybody (except Seppel who seems determined not to read up on how the mechanics work) knew upon reading the thread the first time that we had to get off of the First Halls today.
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lol
I will grant that it was obvious, but pointless? No. I disagree. I'll come back and continue catching up
My thought when writing it was that "Hey, this is a thing. Other people should know this." without really thinking about whether it was obvious or not.
Well clearly you were acting townie then.
You can't just say "Hey I was acting one way in a different game and I was town." That's completely irrelevant to your behavior in this game, where you end conversations prematurely and back yourself up with nothing.
I wasn't even voting you for lurking, yet that's the only thing you feel like defending yourself with.
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2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
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I don't like when people act more certain than they can reasonably be, but the case should be interesting.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
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2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Wait...what? I don't remember directing anything to you and I certainly can't find it if so.
2legit2quit
*Gestures towards Seppel's post wherein aforementioned post is quoted* I presume my point has been proven, then.
* Have I not committed to hard reads? Have I not presented my cases and bulldogged said reads? All that I can really see is that I'm posting more sparsely, that I've read less, and that I'm being less obnoxious in general. That necessitates that I'm trying for survival when my IRL circumstances are what's affecting my posting?
* Because I know Megiddo and to suggest such a thing at this juncture seriously seemed pretty ludicrous. Touchy? Of course I'm touchy, I got mudslinged to death by you and DRey in Seasons with the exact same push - that of me being a Neutral. You were both scum.
* Not necessarily.
* It's not gambler's fallacy - it's a meta call. How you would even think otherwise baffles me and strikes me as disingenuous.
Yes, really. Sure, it's not a strong tell. But it was part of how I caught Void in Deitriptychos. 8D
Not exactly - that would be what I'm saying if Proph is town, but I don't think he is, so it's more like: Proph comes in and picks out a scumbuddy that we think is scum and are going to lynch and plops his vote there early to get credit. Make sense?
No, that was Seasons Mafia.
Omg. Please do something.
So you basically agree with Arian's interpretation of Seppel's meta? And what is your interpretation of Seppel's "plan" in this game? Show me everything you've seen that leads you to believe that he has ulterior motives.
hi
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
But I always find it interesting when people say stuff like '100%' it shows bold confidence, and I like the perspective of people who are bold. AI could be scum, true, but I don't think he is the best case.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Also I don't know what to make of the fact that every time I find someone suspicious they seem to think I am town. Like, literally. No idea what I should make of that.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
This is AI's scum M.O. He takes drive-by potshots, very rarely pushes his own positions and vote rationale (instead preferring to piggyback off of others), and is just all-around a completely different AI from townAI.
I'm pretty sure you've read me correctly in every single game we've played together; maybe once or twice, you were off. Amusingly, seeing as you read Cyan well, Cyan has a similar record of reading me like such. In fairness, I did dupe you in my responses to your initial push on me in Ataghan, but you caught me early on in Day 1.
This rubs me the wrong way.
Because few, if any, people saw scumKilljoy, yet a lot of people felt AI was scum - meaning if I die for my reads toNight, I'll at least have taken out a member of the scum team that would have otherwise been ignored had I not brought him into the light - and AI is probably getting lynched at some point, anyway, so it doesn't disrupt the flow too terribly.
What's it to you?
I'm pretty sure I've made this exact passive-aggressive handwave as scum to defend myself in the past.
Well, the thing I quoted and commented on is pretty bad. That said...meta?
Yup.
@DK: Arian isn't scum. He's gotten burned pushing me one too many times in games because I pushed back harder each time. I feel it's a town wariness/weariness, not a scum nervousness. His tone suggests my theory is correct.
Ask me things.
But Proph is scum. Why the hell would you give him your vote?
You're not even trying.
Was this supposed to be directed towards dkings?
That's fine, I'll take a bullet if I'm wrong about AI.
Am I more certain than I reasonably can be?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Also why did you feel the need to post #937 if it was old stuff?
Is that your only disagreement? Assuming you are right, which votes on the Wildfire wagon read as scum to you?
If being wrong were a sport, you two would tie for the gold medal.
More like CBFAI. I don't think you know how to read me at all.
Good thing I'm not you! Thanks for telling the class how to catch you this game.
As satisfying that would be, it doesn't help us any if you're just wrong-headed town.
Outside of a cop investigation in a Basic no townie can be 100% sure anyone is scum.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Okay, more on that coming but, my question to you is, why do you think the time it happened relates to Killjoy? What would you see as my motivation in that scenario? I can understand the broader concept from people without much experience with me that I might have been responding to Meg having a scum read on me - but linking me to Killjoy I don't get at all and makes me think that you have a reason to do so.
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@DK - So, I did vote Wildfire in 187 when I made the case on him and when I cased Killjoy it was in the same post I cased AI and I voted for him in that post, so both of those points are wrong. Also with the quote that you quoted for Killjoy, I explained why I thought it was a slip later when Meg asked about it. I didn't explain it initially because I thought it was weird that it had been so long that Iso had said it and, other than Killjoy himself, I think I was the first person to acknowledge it... and I wanted to see why it seemed like people were tip-toeing around the point.
As for Seppel - none of my case on him had anything to do with him jumping around. I don't remember him forgetting why he voted for players - I especially don't remember him taking pressure off of people he voted like he did with HookerPunch before he got an answer. Like, I remember him voting Raptor and me until he saw our responses to pressure and I remember him hopping around between Asenion and Haiiro... but I don't remember him forgetting why he was voting those players. In fact, my impression that game was that he gave the impression of chaos but that little was getting by him. The HP vote seemed like a observation I'm used to seeing from him, forgetting about it entirely is not something I remember him doing - and the way he keeps stressing how little of the game he's read feels like he's really trying to emphasize that point. Also, I've read plenty where he's basically gone through the game mechanics in obsessive detail, so him seemingly forcibly removed from them in this game feels very off. Plus, his stressing to Meg twice that he thinks Meg is town also seemed like a strange play for Seppel who I feel like more often doesn't care what people think of the way he's playing. In general, it feels like he cares more about the perception of him in this game than I remember. I stand by this read and his trying to link my interactions with Meg as having something to do with Killjoy feels very off.
As to not playing as I normally do as town, that's true. But I'll ask you this - have you seen me play like this as scum, either? You haven't because I've never played like this. Why did you just specify that I haven't played like this as town when I have no games like this and you've seen my scum game? Knowing what you know of me (and, for context, DK and I have played a ton of games together considering the total number of games I've played), do you think it more or less likely that I'd approach things so different in a game like this as scum or town?
Since we're talking about it, here's the overall context as to why I was so annoyed with Meg and I've been playing differently:
Background - Meg and I have become friendly after Futurama and we were on the same scum team in Xymande and he put a lot of effort into reviewing a game I was developing and we've just generally chatted Mafia.
A little while ago I was asked to replace into CT3. I was really looking forward to playing this game as I'd heard great things about Zinda games but I was also excited to get asked to play in that one because around a year ago I had never played a game of mafia in my life, so I thought it was a cool thing and was excited to rep MTGS, and I accepted knowing that it would make it less likely that I would get picked to play in this game. I was on vacation and responded saying that I'd need to get home to really read but I'd be happy to do it and was told no problem. Then when I got back, I was told that they'd gone with a different player with a history of replacements (and recent activity issues) so I was out again. That sucked and I was bummed because I'd wrapped my head around playing in that one and had started reading a little here and there when I could, but I thought, okay - better chance to get into this game.
So then I started playing this game and I think you'd probably agree that the beginning of this game is more like my normal game - but then, a little while in, I was told that the other person flaked out and asked to replace into CT3 again. By this time, I was spending most of my down time house hunting and had basically just closed on a new home. I said it probably wasn't a good time for me because I was at my game limit and I had this other stuff going on but asked if there were other alternatives. Was told that the other person they had asked could only do it as a last resort, so I said I'd do it, happy to but also way too stretched. Put almost all of my mafia time there, reading the game and needing to be fairly active based on the game state... so I focused little on my other games during that time, which is what Meg picked up on here.
If you go and read Xymande, which was my first scum game, Meg told me that I needed to post more in that game because I wasn't in the top 3 or something and I'm normally a more high frequency poster. But if you look at my response to him it was basically, don't worry about that, my style is less to do with number of posts and more that I usually am a higher contributor from a content standpoint (as an aside, this also has to do with game state, I'm normally less frequent early in games and more frequent as the game progresses). I also told him in that thread that it wouldn't be good if I straight lurked. So when he made that comment to me, he made it directly to me in a way that made me think he was trying to communicate directly to me i.e. he wasn't sold on the theory yet but wanted my reaction, which is why I responded as I did. I didn't agree with his premise (which I said later) because I think his conceptualization of how I was "supposed" to play was based mostly on an end game state in Futurama where I posted VERY frequently because I had him pegged as scum and he was trying to get me lynched for the win (which he did), but, he was right that I was participating less than I probably normally would and I didn't know if he was thinking I was lurking. So I let him know that I was moving and if he opened his eyes (i.e. looked at what was going on in other games in progress) he'd know what was up - because I didn't see the point in going into the whole "your theory is bogus" argument because the reason for my play had everything to do with my OOG stuff and CT3 so it was easier just to make him aware that what he thought he was seeing had nothing to do with anything going on in game.
So then Arian brought it up and Meg outright said what it was saying that I provide "less content" when I'm scum... which was also wrong (look at Xymande and CT3... plenty of content) which is why I said I disagreed with his premise at that point, but also explained the other stuff going on with me at the time.
At this point I was starting to get annoyed because when trying to keep up with this thread it seemed like every other post was Meg's and some of them were solid analysis but some of them were just him stroking himself off, and he kept complaining about how no one else was posting content - even after you move you still have to unpack, etc, etc, so I was working, coming home, unpacking, etc - so keeping up to speed with this game, at this point, at the pace that he was driving and expecting via an incorrect tell, was obnoxious and felt like a chore. Plus, he was making other comments that were vague in his Meg way like "isn't helping you much." I'm also annoyed at this point because I have a solid town read on him so I was thinking that we could play off of each other if he'd figure out I was town already.
So, when I got online the other night and he was on, I figured that we could just suss it out in real time - and that's when I got his cagy Meginess which was enough already.
So, yeah, that's the background behind why I've been playing differently this game and why I was so annoyed the other night. One last point, I'm the kind of person who (and I would assume that both Meg and Proph would be able to attest to this, though I'm still in wait and see mode with Proph) really cares about these (which is why I wanted to put effort into CT3 and why I focused there so much because it was so late in the game). My thought was that I could let my focus slide a bit more in my other games while I was dealing with everything else going on and then reprioritize later on - but if I had a scum team in this game that was counting on me, there's no way I'd have drawn so much attention to myself and I would have just made it work. Maybe they'll back me up on that, maybe they won't - but I'm pretty sure that OOG they'd know it was true.
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On that note, DK is probably town? The past two games we've played together he's been scum and has mostly tried to avoid me. It makes sense that he's thrown by the way I'm playing but the rest of his case is just factually incorrect and feels off at points like saying I've never played this way as town when the reality is that the "as town" part could be left off of that sentence. Maybe he's seeing the momentum and trying to be opportunistic with it, but I don't think so - he's more focused on meaningful types of things and has more of a purpose than he does when he's scum.
@Cythare - what would you expect from me in terms of trying to figure out why Meg is scum reading me and what are you basing that on?
@Iso - you did direct something at me (indirectly) asking to Chris or AI why it wouldn't make sense that I'd be nervous as scum wondering what Meg thought of me, painting my interaction with him in the light of my being afraid I was going to be caught - and my point was that all of that was anger/annoyance, not nervousness. And, I think you've probably seen enough of me to think better of analyzing it that way and, you usually talk about being able to analyze emotion well and have mentioned that you have trouble reading players like me (and Antny) in the past because of our normal lack of emotion. So, basically, your line on that and your approach to try to talk Chris off of his opinion on that I find suspicious.
Re: your response about AI and Killjoy - because it feels unnatural in looking back at it. You'd already made your point that you thought KJ was scum. There was no momentum on Killjoy. Karn was saying to lynch AI who you thought was scum and the lead wagon was on him. You later called AI obvscum and a couple of times indicated that both he or Killjoy were good lynches - so it seems off to me that you'd decide to take a stand there and not vote AI. It seems more like an opportunity to keep the wagon moving on a player you were sure was scum. You could have always made a case on KJ or reiterated your thoughts again if the AI wagon went through. That and Seppel linking me to Killjoy... the Killjoy wagon has a purposeful feel to it.
I think it probably means he's scum - and his early play, Chris's post on him, and the succinct nature of his catch up (I'm used to him being more elaborate and free with his posting) all jive with it.
Unvote: Vote Killjoy
I feel a little better about AI based on his recent interactions with Iso (the ones a few pages ago more than the just no ones). I'm suspicious of both Seppel and Iso, still watching Proph, notice that Wildfire has gotten much more quiet now that he's under less suspicion - strongest town reads at the moment on Meg, and both Sirs.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Either way, we're all gonna burn
@Iso: Your new avatar stinks.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player