You aren't serious, are you? I've only made like three posts, and they've all been unhelpful.
YES YES YES
I am serious. You're usually unhelpful. And the fact that you're able to acknowledge that you've been unhelpful instead of just letting my townread of you fly under the radar further cements that you're thinking, "How does this guy think I'm town already?"
Megiddo (6) -- has been more active than usual on D1 (in a productive manner), has explained this as being because we have a lot of weaker // trollier d1 players (which I agree with / am part of the problem). My reads and his seem to have largely agreed, so that's a thing.
Prophylaxis (25) -- has been a non-entity. Was apparently overseas which has been/is keeping him away.
AsianInvasion (25) -- has spent most of the game tilting after purportedly tryharding early and having it blow up in his face. I've been there and done that, and am willing to let AI slide for now.
Cythare (25) -- I still have a scum read here. Unfortunately, it's based largely in gut and metagame, and there is little concrete from this specific game to go off of.
hansanator (25) -- hasn't done much, but I agree that what he -has- done, I've liked.
EtR (25) -- EtR has been engimatic this game. He seems like he's having a hard time breaking into the conversation, which is odd because only around half the game is actively posting (which means the active posters are roughly the size of a Mini). My gut says there's something off about him this game, but, nothing solid.
Arianrhod (25) -- oh herro
Sir Chris (25) -- Not sure where to start here. I didn't like his posts early (especially with regards to Cythare), then I liked his posts more as he seemingly gained in confidence and asked better questions, and then I didn't like his most recent salvo with Iso...it almost feels like he's become too confident. This worries me, because it seems like a natural mindset progression for scum -- nervous at the onset [has something to hide], gains in confidence [nobody is on to him], develops overconfidence [still nobody on to me, bring it on].
Rhand (25) -- is on partial v/la throughout the game so far. Seems healthily inquisitive from what posts he's made so far.
HookerPunch (25) -- I actually have no read here yet. I know HP has posted at least a little, but I honestly can't remember anything that he's said.
Killjoy (25) -- Killjoy has posted -significantly- less than I would have expected. I remember playing with him once before (I don't recall which game it was, though), and I remember liking his commentary and his lines of questioning. All of that is missing so far this game. The only thing that he's really done has been the ""slip"" with Iso at the start of the game (which I am far from convinced was a slip...too easy for to have been an honest mistake). He's spent the rest of the time he's posted defending himself against it. I don't like that, since I didn't get a prior "new player" read on Killjoy, and experienced players tend to not get as wound up defending themselves as town.
Iso (25) -- is still Iso. I'm still not even going to bother trying to read him this early.
Wildfire393 (25) -- having a hard time reconciling playstyle differences vs actual scum. I kind of feel like the old "too scummy to be scum" adage applies here. Call it gut, but I don't really read ill intent from his posts...rather, he just says things, and those things come out...poorly. I dunno. I'm ramming a fencepole up my ass on this one.
Sir Karn (25) -- I haven't actually played with Karn for...I want to say six months or so? Maybe longer? From what I've gleaned from other conversations throughout the game, he's changed his playstyle a bit from what I remember. He's definitely less scummy than I'm used to him being.
LnGrrrR (25) -- While I haven't liked actually any of LnG's posts thusfar, I remember him as being another example of a player who is typically weak early and snowballs as the game progresses. Someone I've got my eye on, but I don't think that he's the lynch today.
Seppel (25) -- I actually don't think that Seppel has been random enough this game to be town. He might be busy or something...I dunno, but he's not been as flippant as he usually is early on when he's town. Bears watching.
kpaca (25) -- ????
rezombied (25) -- ????
Niv (35) -- I haven't liked Niv. First he's all self-referential / self-excusing / belittling ("nobody ever reads my books"), but then he goes ahead and does it anyway. I feel like these "book-length" posts are a good way for scum to play, because a lot of players won't actually take the time to read through what he's posting, and will just see that he's posting a lot of content and go "oh, he's town." Furthermore, he's been taking forever to actually produce these books as per his own deadlines and expectations, which is the hallmark of someone who is not particularly invested in the game.
DCIII (25) -- I've actually liked DCIII's content thusfar this game. Meg's concern about his volume of posting is valid, but that doesn't change that what posts he has made, I've found to be reasonable. He's in the IGMEOY pile.
desCoures (25) -- fewer dreadnoughts than I'm used to from dC. He hasn't felt particularly engaged thusfar, which is usually a hallmark of his play. Not sure if he's among the v/la crowd or if he's just lurking.
Let's group up (no particular order within categories):
Town:
Me
Megiddo
Lean town:
Rhand
AsianInvasion
hansanator
Sir Karn
Wildfire393
????:
Prophylaxis
kpaca
rezombied
HookerPunch
Iso
IGMEOY:
LnGrrrR
Seppel
DCIII
desCoures
EtR
Lean scum:
Sir Chris
Killjoy
Niv
Scum:
Cythare
I would still like to lynch Cythare.
-) Day 1 sucks because we have basically no information.
-) We have a lot of players who get incrementally better as the game progresses and they have more to work with.
-) Cythare has triggered a gut scum read in both myself and Megiddo -- I still have massive confidence issues with mafia, but Megiddo sharing my opinion emboldens me.
-) if scum!Cythare, we get interactions to work with overNight in addition to night action information.
-) if town!Cythare, we still get information from night actions which the analysts can start working over, and we don't actually lose anything, because we'll be visiting Ghostlands mid-game anyway (which is when I believe town!Cythare's strongest point hits).
-) what we -can't- do is spending forever on D1, because all that will serve to do is allow the scum to sow more distrust and confusion while we run around with no purpose, direction, or hard information with which to move forward on solving the game. The last 3? 4? games I've played have all gone to deadline on day one, and I would very much like for that miserable experience to not be repeated here.
@zindamod: are we confirmed moving to Ruchperion? I'm not sure from the count if we're locked on there or if we're 1 vote short.
Meg: I agree that what I just said is an accurate description of that post. What I don't see is how it's a scum post. Go ahead and give youself a cookie, and enlighten the rest of us.
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Meg: I agree that what I just said is an accurate description of that post. What I don't see is how it's a scum post. Go ahead and give youself a cookie, and enlighten the rest of us.
Before I do that, you read the signup thread, right? In its entirety?
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
I have read it, yes.
Which part in particular are you talking about here? The part where there's defenses against early massclaims? Or the part where the roles are randomized (which would mean that we couldn't even clear these people as likely being doc/watcher types, since they could just as easily be scum)?
I'm still not seeing a shred of evidence that claiming like this would in any way benefit us.
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Er, Arianrhod, one small thing in relation to me: people have been on me quite a bit. I am unsure where votes stand at the moment, but I've been called a mixture of terrible and voted for it what feels like often. Why do you think I, as scum, would just ignore that and be confident in the face of that? If I hadn't been voted at all this would make sense, but I don't see how you can connect the logic of what you say with what has happened.
But a couple of questions: is it common for Asian to just not justify what he says in any way? I mean if it is what it is then I guess he just doesn't bother with that stuff. But I'd like to know that's a 'thing', because it would make him seem more town to me for the whole mass claim thing. Also do you believe shorter days benefit town? I've always felt the opposite. With more time the truth often has more time to come out, or be reasoned. In my experience no scum lie can hold up forever. Not to say we have to spend it forever, but uh most of those points are kind of Cythare neutral don't you think?
But if AI indeed just does this I'd probably vote for Niv. His novels aren't very impressive, and big walls of text every now and then are something I am suspicious of because it is how I often see scum operate.
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gains in confidence [nobody is on to him], develops overconfidence [still nobody on to me, bring it on].
Like I don't think 'still nobody on me, bring it on' or 'nobody is on to him' could have been said at almost any point in this game in relation to me! I tend to ease into games, as you can probably see if you go through Castlevania. I don't like to go full blast. Not nervousness though.
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Ok, good, so you're aware about the role randomization. That was the only variable. I assumed you knew but after checking your posts there was no explicit evidence, so I had to tease it out of you like that.
I think a mass claim this early would be a mistake.
The best we'll be able to get out of it is we get some people who come forward and claim that they have abilities that are good in the Mirrored Domain.
Okay, so we probably just outed our Doc and Watcher types to the scum? Sure, the Doc will be safe as long as we stay there, but we have to move to Ruchperion at some point if we're going to have it as a fallback world for the long game.
So let's look at this.
First, I'm not disagreeing with the point of the post. If you read my posts I clearly think a massclaim is bad, and I'm not sure why your most recent post here seems to imply that I want one.
So, level one of this post is that you can't assume that the town has doc or watcher types. We don't know that those roles exist in this game or in what form. There's no guarantee that the town has anything like that (well, I suspect there is, but we'll wait until postgame for that). By demonstrating that you are aware of the random roles we can rule out ignorance.
But level two, and the real reason I call this a scum post, is that a town player's version of this post would say that we don't want to give the scum more info or that we need to protect our strong roles. Specifically calling out the doc/watcher raises my hackles for two reasons. First, it feels as though you are trying to pretend to have town concerns in line. Like, a scum trying to make this argument wants to appear convincing, so he needs to appeal to emotion and logic. By both metrics we want to protect our doc/watcher roles. It makes sense to call both out to get us thinking that way. A townie with knowledge of role randomization doesn't put the thought into actually mentioning a specific role. There's no need to mention it. Second... you're actually subtly providing evidence FOR a massclaim here by saying that the doc will be safe. In fact, by lumping Watcher in the post you're subtly calling out the doc/watcher combo, which would be completely unbeatable on Ruchperion (as the watcher knows that he's being protected every Night and the Doc can't ever be shot).
So, to summarize, you put just too much thought into making your argument appeal to townies, and I think the reason you did that is because you're scum and fabricating your viewpoints.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
Except, if you look at post #58, I called out Doc and Watcher as roles that would be really useful on Alaway right at the beginning of the game (when I was pro moving to Alaway, before Arian's big post).
I didn't really put a lot of thought into this particular post. I simple reiterated my standing belief that these two roles (if they exist and if they are town) would be very strong on Alaway, and that that would be the best possible case to be revealed in terms of influencing movement, except for that fact that it also requires outing two of our powerful roles.
Even if Doc/Watcher is insane on Alaway, we don't know if we have them both, and if one person comes forward saying they're good on Alaway, it would just be one or the other (which is less great), and it also opens them up to Dayvigging, Roleblocking, Role-Swapping, or any of the other crazy things that could be present in this game (based on my look through Seasons).
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Except in #58, I'm pro moving to Alaway and don't say anything about claiming.
I speculate about mechanics and night actions. It's a thing I do. As town. Read literally any of my games. You can dislike it if you want, but it still comes back to just not liking my playstyle.
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I got my Cythare scumread because his post feels off. Cythare does not usually get that animated when he plays mafia. I can understand why somebody less familiar with his play would not notice this.
I actually used to be really early on, but I kept getting lynched for it, so I stopped. Live and don't learn, I guess? It's been a while, and I've always been crappy at this.
Cythare (25) -- I still have a scum read here. Unfortunately, it's based largely in gut and metagame, and there is little concrete from this specific game to go off of.
<snip>
I would still like to lynch Cythare.
-) Day 1 sucks because we have basically no information.
-) We have a lot of players who get incrementally better as the game progresses and they have more to work with.
-) Cythare has triggered a gut scum read in both myself and Megiddo -- I still have massive confidence issues with mafia, but Megiddo sharing my opinion emboldens me.
-) if scum!Cythare, we get interactions to work with overNight in addition to night action information.
-) if town!Cythare, we still get information from night actions which the analysts can start working over, and we don't actually lose anything, because we'll be visiting Ghostlands mid-game anyway (which is when I believe town!Cythare's strongest point hits).
-) what we -can't- do is spending forever on D1, because all that will serve to do is allow the scum to sow more distrust and confusion while we run around with no purpose, direction, or hard information with which to move forward on solving the game. The last 3? 4? games I've played have all gone to deadline on day one, and I would very much like for that miserable experience to not be repeated here.
It's largely based on one game, which is not the same thing as an actual meta. That said, I'm not the worst mislynch, and your 5th point is (mostly) true. I'm much better later and can help once I'm dead. My only issue is the "we don't actually lose anything", because we still won't be lynching scum.
@Arian: RE: Seppel: Do you feel scumSeppel typically has some sort of predefined "game plan" that he goes with instead of what I assume you feel are townSeppel's situational whims? If so, can you point out where you've seen that here and in past scumSeppel games?
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Er, Arianrhod, one small thing in relation to me: people have been on me quite a bit. I am unsure where votes stand at the moment, but I've been called a mixture of terrible and voted for it what feels like often. Why do you think I, as scum, would just ignore that and be confident in the face of that? If I hadn't been voted at all this would make sense, but I don't see how you can connect the logic of what you say with what has happened.
But a couple of questions: is it common for Asian to just not justify what he says in any way? I mean if it is what it is then I guess he just doesn't bother with that stuff. But I'd like to know that's a 'thing', because it would make him seem more town to me for the whole mass claim thing. Also do you believe shorter days benefit town? I've always felt the opposite. With more time the truth often has more time to come out, or be reasoned. In my experience no scum lie can hold up forever. Not to say we have to spend it forever, but uh most of those points are kind of Cythare neutral don't you think?
But if AI indeed just does this I'd probably vote for Niv. His novels aren't very impressive, and big walls of text every now and then are something I am suspicious of because it is how I often see scum operate.
I would say it's fair to categorize AI in this manner. From my recollection of town!AI, he offers a lot of opinions but rarely justifies them unless he's casing someone.
Day length depends somewhat on the players involved. If we had a lot of players who are very good at reading people / playing the person, then sure, longer days would be better for us. But I look at the player list and it's literally loaded with analysts. I would suggest that keeping D1 on the shorter side would benefit us, because the analysts wouldn't have time to develop as many preconceived notions before receiving data to munch through, which would benefit us in the future. A longer D1 with this game and this playerlist will only serve to let the scum have more time to set up before we start chugging -- especially since I'll reiterate my concern that scum may have daychat to balance out the power of Ghostlands.
@Arian: RE: Seppel: Do you feel scumSeppel typically has some sort of predefined "game plan" that he goes with instead of what I assume you feel are townSeppel's situational whims? If so, can you point out where you've seen that here and in past scumSeppel games?
No, I don't. I think that scumSeppel just goes with what the flow and accepts what game state is offered him. Note that I don't believe I have ever been in a game with scum!seppel, but I did experience SK!seppel in Zelda, and I consider the two to be roughly equatable.
It's more of an attitude/tone-based thing. Like, you said that I'm in my "town tone." I'd go the same way with it re@seppel. He hasn't had the same general lightheartedness to his tone that he usually has early on as town so far this game. That's kind of a poor reason to suspect him (could be something going on IRL that has him depressed that's just filtering through to his posts this game, for example), but we don't have great tools to work with on D1.
It may be nothing, but I think it's worth keeping an eye on him for.
@DC, I don't agree with Chris's case on Cythare, but I think Megiddo's "Cythare has been clamming up after being called out" is being borne out.
Re: I don't recall Karn having an awesome scum game. So town!Karn is a bigger asset than scum!Karn is a liability.
By the time Niv actually catches up, it's going to be Day 2.
Re:Karn: ...that's a horrible reason to give someone a pass. It doesn't matter how much 'better' at being town than scum someone is in the abstract. This isn't a statistics exercise - if you don't think Karn's play to that point had been 'particularly townie', then it shouldn't matter if he's a lousier scum 77% of the time or whatever. Heck, if he's a lousier scum, then all the more reason to pressure him early and shake something loose - going by what you say, a town Karn should be able to deal with said pressure far better than a scum Karn, hmm?
Your whole attitude with regards to Karn stinks, just like Karn's entire game to this point stinks.
desCoures: To answer your question to me directly, I find problem with it because it's busywork. It's useful busywork, but busywork nonetheless. However, Arian has contributed plenty of actual analysis posts and that outweighs the one strike against him. Why are you hammering on this point so much when I do not actually have a scumread on him? (to be fair I may not have articulated my stance until recently. HOWEVER, this is a relatively minor point, so I'm curious as to why you're giving it so much weight).
Because it read like an attempt to discredit him. I know you should be familiar with the tactic of keeping a window of doubt open on townish players, and that's exactly what you and someone else (Sir Chris, I think) were doing.
And while your explanation is decent, I'm not sure I like your attempt to denigrate it as a 'minor point'.
Ok, good, so you're aware about the role randomization. That was the only variable. I assumed you knew but after checking your posts there was no explicit evidence, so I had to tease it out of you like that.
I think a mass claim this early would be a mistake.
The best we'll be able to get out of it is we get some people who come forward and claim that they have abilities that are good in the Mirrored Domain.
Okay, so we probably just outed our Doc and Watcher types to the scum? Sure, the Doc will be safe as long as we stay there, but we have to move to Ruchperion at some point if we're going to have it as a fallback world for the long game.
So let's look at this.
First, I'm not disagreeing with the point of the post. If you read my posts I clearly think a massclaim is bad, and I'm not sure why your most recent post here seems to imply that I want one.
So, level one of this post is that you can't assume that the town has doc or watcher types. We don't know that those roles exist in this game or in what form. There's no guarantee that the town has anything like that (well, I suspect there is, but we'll wait until postgame for that). By demonstrating that you are aware of the random roles we can rule out ignorance.
But level two, and the real reason I call this a scum post, is that a town player's version of this post would say that we don't want to give the scum more info or that we need to protect our strong roles. Specifically calling out the doc/watcher raises my hackles for two reasons. First, it feels as though you are trying to pretend to have town concerns in line. Like, a scum trying to make this argument wants to appear convincing, so he needs to appeal to emotion and logic. By both metrics we want to protect our doc/watcher roles. It makes sense to call both out to get us thinking that way. A townie with knowledge of role randomization doesn't put the thought into actually mentioning a specific role. There's no need to mention it. Second... you're actually subtly providing evidence FOR a massclaim here by saying that the doc will be safe. In fact, by lumping Watcher in the post you're subtly calling out the doc/watcher combo, which would be completely unbeatable on Ruchperion (as the watcher knows that he's being protected every Night and the Doc can't ever be shot).
So, to summarize, you put just too much thought into making your argument appeal to townies, and I think the reason you did that is because you're scum and fabricating your viewpoints.
Mmh. The first bit is a valid point - someone aware of the role randomization should be less likely to single out doc/watcher roles, given that there's no guarantee they're town, if they're even present.
I was thinking the second bit was a bit of a stretch, given that the point above about role randomization applies just as much to scum as to town. but I think I see where you're coming from with that. Mm.
----------------
Unvote
There's a bunch of people I need to take a closer look at, LnGrrrR, Karn, and Wildfire among them. I also remember having issues with AI and Sir Chris.
Also, I think I noted on skim that there needs to be some distinction between acronyms used for me and DCIII. I had hansanator's post quoted to ask when the heck we ever played a game together until I realized who he was talking about.
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Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
... because I have a gut feeling that this is a scum Seppel comment, thought no one would find it convincing enough on its own, but wanted to see how people reacted to it.
I've never been able to identify a difference between my playstyle except "scum seppel reads the game." I think it's a good scale.
Good point, actually. Seppel's not giving me the super townvibe he gave me before.
Eh, he can still be town.
If you say so.
Unvote, vote HookerPunch
I could see where he was coming from with this vote when he voted it, but then he moved off of HP without getting a response to the above and when HP rejoined the game there was no follow up to him. This kind of post doesn't seem like the kind of post that he would just vote and abandon/not address again. If Seppel was scumhunting, I feel like he'd be on this one still, if not in vote at least in focus. This also makes me think that if I'm right, HP is also scum because it would have been a post that Seppel felt he had to touch/couldn't just let go, but now he's let it fall to the back-burner.
I took the vote off because Hooker wasn't posting and my vote was being useless and the time for a reaction had expired. Also I forgot about the vote.
Thanks for reminding me about that comment though.
Okay well if he just doesn't justify...well I can't hold it against him, fair enough.
##unvote: AI
##vote: Niv
Just have not liked his 'will make observations every now and then at my own pace' version of a novel.
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Then it is in line with everything else I've done this game in your eyes, at least I remain consistent.
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(btw you needing to be reminded of a case and then you scurrying to go 'oh yeah...oh yeah!" after being voted for it is the terrible vote, but sure)
Speaking of me you talked about my AI point but didn't talk about my objection to your characterization of my behavior, Arian.
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Chris, Niv to me seems a lot like Crossfiyah from Castlevania. He's not being super helpful, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's scum.
I'm satisfied with Seppel's response. The fact that it was more than just dismissing the case goes against Seppel's own rules for winning as mafia.
This is bad. You don't think that the person who wrote the rules seriously wouldn't realize that the best way to avoid their scrutiny being used against himself would be to violate them?
What is there to say? I see things one way as an external observer, you characterize yourself another internally. It's casual.
Okay so just so I am clear. You are okay with that 'progression' using the thought that 'Chris thinks no one is after him, so he gets confident' despite me making it a point to defend myself zealously from said people after me.
I mean sure, if that's how you want to see it I guess I can't stop you.
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Also I think Wildfire just got WIFOM'd into next year by special.
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@dC, been a bit busy lately, but a quick answer to your point... what exactly was leaving my vote on Karn doing? He wasn't answering my questions, and no one else seemingly cared about that except for AI. I don't have infinite patience; Karn is going to pretty obviously lurk throughout the Day, while providing cryptic "X is scum" comments with no reasoning. I'm not going to keep hanging my head against that wall by myself.
Chris, Niv to me seems a lot like Crossfiyah from Castlevania. He's not being super helpful, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's scum.
I'm satisfied with Seppel's response. The fact that it was more than just dismissing the case goes against Seppel's own rules for winning as mafia.
This is bad. You don't think that the person who wrote the rules seriously wouldn't realize that the best way to avoid their scrutiny being used against himself would be to violate them?
They're good rules. Ignoring a vote on you is probably the one that people mess up the reasoning for the most often -- yes, townies will often dismiss single votes and ignore them, but it's that you don't want the conversation to get too heated. You're just encouraging conversation by replying to it, and, at best, you've created a slapfight that pegs you and your aggressor as not scum together. And those long slapfights are hard and rare to make genuine when a scum goes aggro on another scum.
The only way to dodge something like that after it's been made is to [redacted to stop giving the scum hints].
I made a note to add a few rules thanks to being on a team with Wildfire and having Wildfire do things that I couldn't imagine he'd do. At one point I even had to coach him in plain sight because he was clearing townies left and right.
Hey Wildfire, how long have you been playing mafia?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I started my first game at the end of last year, so I guess like 8 months now?
Night was also my only game as scum so far, besides the bastardfest that was Industry.
(Also, I only cleared one townie, and it was in a botched attempt to WIFOM him as possible scum)
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Also, hansanator looks better after his big post, so he's not #3 any more. Right now I'm at:
Town
Megiddo
Wildfire393
DCIII
Leaning Town
Sir Chris
Arianrhod
Unsure
desCoures
hansanator EtR
killjoy
Iso
Seppel
Rhand
kpaca
Sir Karn
rezombied
Niv
Leaning Scum
Prophylaxis
HookerPunch
Scum
AsianInvasion
LnGrrrR
In more or less this order, except for the italicized group being interchangable because I am truly unsure of their alignment. For HookerPunch, I dislike the level of disengagement - I know this is something he does, but it feels more so than usual. Prophylaxis is trending down based on others' statements of his activity level being alignment-indicative. Niv and rezombied are on the low end of unsure because I haven't really liked what I've seen from their low content. I can't read desCoures very well, but everything seems normal compared to what I've seen before.
@Megs: Oooo. I want a cookie. 592 is a scum post because he says "the best we'll get out of it is outing our PRs."
Quote from Wildfire »
The best we'll be able to get out of it is we get some people who come forward and claim that they have abilities that are good in the Mirrored Domain.
- Was reading through while making this post; you didn't give me time to get the ******* cookie.
just like Karn's entire game to this point stinks.
NO U!
@DCIII: Put your vote somewhere useful. Seppel isn't scum. I was correct in reading scum Seppel like one month ago or something and this game is nothing like that game. In that game, he posted in a similar manner, but everything just oozed that feeling of scumminess that was hard to explain but was certainly there. This game has none of that.
You don't sound anything like the FHF Eron.
You're telling me to "shhhh" and that went nowhere and now a slimy "care to back up those statements?" instead of something like "explain" or "why"
Like that's a line that I'd dayvig you for if given the chance.
YES YES YES
I am serious. You're usually unhelpful. And the fact that you're able to acknowledge that you've been unhelpful instead of just letting my townread of you fly under the radar further cements that you're thinking, "How does this guy think I'm town already?"
Megiddo: I get it, you don't like my playstyle.
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Megiddo (6) -- has been more active than usual on D1 (in a productive manner), has explained this as being because we have a lot of weaker // trollier d1 players (which I agree with / am part of the problem). My reads and his seem to have largely agreed, so that's a thing.
Prophylaxis (25) -- has been a non-entity. Was apparently overseas which has been/is keeping him away.
AsianInvasion (25) -- has spent most of the game tilting after purportedly tryharding early and having it blow up in his face. I've been there and done that, and am willing to let AI slide for now.
Cythare (25) -- I still have a scum read here. Unfortunately, it's based largely in gut and metagame, and there is little concrete from this specific game to go off of.
hansanator (25) -- hasn't done much, but I agree that what he -has- done, I've liked.
EtR (25) -- EtR has been engimatic this game. He seems like he's having a hard time breaking into the conversation, which is odd because only around half the game is actively posting (which means the active posters are roughly the size of a Mini). My gut says there's something off about him this game, but, nothing solid.
Arianrhod (25) -- oh herro
Sir Chris (25) -- Not sure where to start here. I didn't like his posts early (especially with regards to Cythare), then I liked his posts more as he seemingly gained in confidence and asked better questions, and then I didn't like his most recent salvo with Iso...it almost feels like he's become too confident. This worries me, because it seems like a natural mindset progression for scum -- nervous at the onset [has something to hide], gains in confidence [nobody is on to him], develops overconfidence [still nobody on to me, bring it on].
Rhand (25) -- is on partial v/la throughout the game so far. Seems healthily inquisitive from what posts he's made so far.
HookerPunch (25) -- I actually have no read here yet. I know HP has posted at least a little, but I honestly can't remember anything that he's said.
Killjoy (25) -- Killjoy has posted -significantly- less than I would have expected. I remember playing with him once before (I don't recall which game it was, though), and I remember liking his commentary and his lines of questioning. All of that is missing so far this game. The only thing that he's really done has been the ""slip"" with Iso at the start of the game (which I am far from convinced was a slip...too easy for to have been an honest mistake). He's spent the rest of the time he's posted defending himself against it. I don't like that, since I didn't get a prior "new player" read on Killjoy, and experienced players tend to not get as wound up defending themselves as town.
Iso (25) -- is still Iso. I'm still not even going to bother trying to read him this early.
Wildfire393 (25) -- having a hard time reconciling playstyle differences vs actual scum. I kind of feel like the old "too scummy to be scum" adage applies here. Call it gut, but I don't really read ill intent from his posts...rather, he just says things, and those things come out...poorly. I dunno. I'm ramming a fencepole up my ass on this one.
Sir Karn (25) -- I haven't actually played with Karn for...I want to say six months or so? Maybe longer? From what I've gleaned from other conversations throughout the game, he's changed his playstyle a bit from what I remember. He's definitely less scummy than I'm used to him being.
LnGrrrR (25) -- While I haven't liked actually any of LnG's posts thusfar, I remember him as being another example of a player who is typically weak early and snowballs as the game progresses. Someone I've got my eye on, but I don't think that he's the lynch today.
Seppel (25) -- I actually don't think that Seppel has been random enough this game to be town. He might be busy or something...I dunno, but he's not been as flippant as he usually is early on when he's town. Bears watching.
kpaca (25) -- ????
rezombied (25) -- ????
Niv (35) -- I haven't liked Niv. First he's all self-referential / self-excusing / belittling ("nobody ever reads my books"), but then he goes ahead and does it anyway. I feel like these "book-length" posts are a good way for scum to play, because a lot of players won't actually take the time to read through what he's posting, and will just see that he's posting a lot of content and go "oh, he's town." Furthermore, he's been taking forever to actually produce these books as per his own deadlines and expectations, which is the hallmark of someone who is not particularly invested in the game.
DCIII (25) -- I've actually liked DCIII's content thusfar this game. Meg's concern about his volume of posting is valid, but that doesn't change that what posts he has made, I've found to be reasonable. He's in the IGMEOY pile.
desCoures (25) -- fewer dreadnoughts than I'm used to from dC. He hasn't felt particularly engaged thusfar, which is usually a hallmark of his play. Not sure if he's among the v/la crowd or if he's just lurking.
Let's group up (no particular order within categories):
Town:
Me
Megiddo
Lean town:
Rhand
AsianInvasion
hansanator
Sir Karn
Wildfire393
????:
Prophylaxis
kpaca
rezombied
HookerPunch
Iso
IGMEOY:
LnGrrrR
Seppel
DCIII
desCoures
EtR
Lean scum:
Sir Chris
Killjoy
Niv
Scum:
Cythare
I would still like to lynch Cythare.
-) Day 1 sucks because we have basically no information.
-) We have a lot of players who get incrementally better as the game progresses and they have more to work with.
-) Cythare has triggered a gut scum read in both myself and Megiddo -- I still have massive confidence issues with mafia, but Megiddo sharing my opinion emboldens me.
-) if scum!Cythare, we get interactions to work with overNight in addition to night action information.
-) if town!Cythare, we still get information from night actions which the analysts can start working over, and we don't actually lose anything, because we'll be visiting Ghostlands mid-game anyway (which is when I believe town!Cythare's strongest point hits).
-) what we -can't- do is spending forever on D1, because all that will serve to do is allow the scum to sow more distrust and confusion while we run around with no purpose, direction, or hard information with which to move forward on solving the game. The last 3? 4? games I've played have all gone to deadline on day one, and I would very much like for that miserable experience to not be repeated here.
@zindamod: are we confirmed moving to Ruchperion? I'm not sure from the count if we're locked on there or if we're 1 vote short.
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Reading and posting reads soon.
Which part in particular are you talking about here? The part where there's defenses against early massclaims? Or the part where the roles are randomized (which would mean that we couldn't even clear these people as likely being doc/watcher types, since they could just as easily be scum)?
I'm still not seeing a shred of evidence that claiming like this would in any way benefit us.
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But a couple of questions: is it common for Asian to just not justify what he says in any way? I mean if it is what it is then I guess he just doesn't bother with that stuff. But I'd like to know that's a 'thing', because it would make him seem more town to me for the whole mass claim thing. Also do you believe shorter days benefit town? I've always felt the opposite. With more time the truth often has more time to come out, or be reasoned. In my experience no scum lie can hold up forever. Not to say we have to spend it forever, but uh most of those points are kind of Cythare neutral don't you think?
But if AI indeed just does this I'd probably vote for Niv. His novels aren't very impressive, and big walls of text every now and then are something I am suspicious of because it is how I often see scum operate.
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Like I don't think 'still nobody on me, bring it on' or 'nobody is on to him' could have been said at almost any point in this game in relation to me! I tend to ease into games, as you can probably see if you go through Castlevania. I don't like to go full blast. Not nervousness though.
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Anyway, your post was the following:
So let's look at this.
First, I'm not disagreeing with the point of the post. If you read my posts I clearly think a massclaim is bad, and I'm not sure why your most recent post here seems to imply that I want one.
So, level one of this post is that you can't assume that the town has doc or watcher types. We don't know that those roles exist in this game or in what form. There's no guarantee that the town has anything like that (well, I suspect there is, but we'll wait until postgame for that). By demonstrating that you are aware of the random roles we can rule out ignorance.
But level two, and the real reason I call this a scum post, is that a town player's version of this post would say that we don't want to give the scum more info or that we need to protect our strong roles. Specifically calling out the doc/watcher raises my hackles for two reasons. First, it feels as though you are trying to pretend to have town concerns in line. Like, a scum trying to make this argument wants to appear convincing, so he needs to appeal to emotion and logic. By both metrics we want to protect our doc/watcher roles. It makes sense to call both out to get us thinking that way. A townie with knowledge of role randomization doesn't put the thought into actually mentioning a specific role. There's no need to mention it. Second... you're actually subtly providing evidence FOR a massclaim here by saying that the doc will be safe. In fact, by lumping Watcher in the post you're subtly calling out the doc/watcher combo, which would be completely unbeatable on Ruchperion (as the watcher knows that he's being protected every Night and the Doc can't ever be shot).
So, to summarize, you put just too much thought into making your argument appeal to townies, and I think the reason you did that is because you're scum and fabricating your viewpoints.
Except, if you look at post #58, I called out Doc and Watcher as roles that would be really useful on Alaway right at the beginning of the game (when I was pro moving to Alaway, before Arian's big post).
I didn't really put a lot of thought into this particular post. I simple reiterated my standing belief that these two roles (if they exist and if they are town) would be very strong on Alaway, and that that would be the best possible case to be revealed in terms of influencing movement, except for that fact that it also requires outing two of our powerful roles.
Even if Doc/Watcher is insane on Alaway, we don't know if we have them both, and if one person comes forward saying they're good on Alaway, it would just be one or the other (which is less great), and it also opens them up to Dayvigging, Roleblocking, Role-Swapping, or any of the other crazy things that could be present in this game (based on my look through Seasons).
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I speculate about mechanics and night actions. It's a thing I do. As town. Read literally any of my games. You can dislike it if you want, but it still comes back to just not liking my playstyle.
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It's largely based on one game, which is not the same thing as an actual meta. That said, I'm not the worst mislynch, and your 5th point is (mostly) true. I'm much better later and can help once I'm dead. My only issue is the "we don't actually lose anything", because we still won't be lynching scum.
I'd still prefer an AI or LnGrrrR lynch.
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I would say it's fair to categorize AI in this manner. From my recollection of town!AI, he offers a lot of opinions but rarely justifies them unless he's casing someone.
Day length depends somewhat on the players involved. If we had a lot of players who are very good at reading people / playing the person, then sure, longer days would be better for us. But I look at the player list and it's literally loaded with analysts. I would suggest that keeping D1 on the shorter side would benefit us, because the analysts wouldn't have time to develop as many preconceived notions before receiving data to munch through, which would benefit us in the future. A longer D1 with this game and this playerlist will only serve to let the scum have more time to set up before we start chugging -- especially since I'll reiterate my concern that scum may have daychat to balance out the power of Ghostlands.
No, I don't. I think that scumSeppel just goes with what the flow and accepts what game state is offered him. Note that I don't believe I have ever been in a game with scum!seppel, but I did experience SK!seppel in Zelda, and I consider the two to be roughly equatable.
It's more of an attitude/tone-based thing. Like, you said that I'm in my "town tone." I'd go the same way with it re@seppel. He hasn't had the same general lightheartedness to his tone that he usually has early on as town so far this game. That's kind of a poor reason to suspect him (could be something going on IRL that has him depressed that's just filtering through to his posts this game, for example), but we don't have great tools to work with on D1.
It may be nothing, but I think it's worth keeping an eye on him for.
I've also only skimmed latest content. Apologies for that as well, but my other game is kind of at a critical juncture.
@LnGrrrR
Re:Karn: ...that's a horrible reason to give someone a pass. It doesn't matter how much 'better' at being town than scum someone is in the abstract. This isn't a statistics exercise - if you don't think Karn's play to that point had been 'particularly townie', then it shouldn't matter if he's a lousier scum 77% of the time or whatever. Heck, if he's a lousier scum, then all the more reason to pressure him early and shake something loose - going by what you say, a town Karn should be able to deal with said pressure far better than a scum Karn, hmm?
Your whole attitude with regards to Karn stinks, just like Karn's entire game to this point stinks.
@Megiddo
Because it read like an attempt to discredit him. I know you should be familiar with the tactic of keeping a window of doubt open on townish players, and that's exactly what you and someone else (Sir Chris, I think) were doing.
And while your explanation is decent, I'm not sure I like your attempt to denigrate it as a 'minor point'.
Mmh. The first bit is a valid point - someone aware of the role randomization should be less likely to single out doc/watcher roles, given that there's no guarantee they're town, if they're even present.
I was thinking the second bit was a bit of a stretch, given that the point above about role randomization applies just as much to scum as to town. but I think I see where you're coming from with that. Mm.
----------------
Unvote
There's a bunch of people I need to take a closer look at, LnGrrrR, Karn, and Wildfire among them. I also remember having issues with AI and Sir Chris.
Also, I think I noted on skim that there needs to be some distinction between acronyms used for me and DCIII. I had hansanator's post quoted to ask when the heck we ever played a game together until I realized who he was talking about.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
dC
works for me
What case?
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If I'm alive on D3 I'll care about game mechanics.
I've never been able to identify a difference between my playstyle except "scum seppel reads the game." I think it's a good scale.
I took the vote off because Hooker wasn't posting and my vote was being useless and the time for a reaction had expired. Also I forgot about the vote.
Thanks for reminding me about that comment though.
Unvote, vote HookerPunch
##unvote: AI
##vote: Niv
Just have not liked his 'will make observations every now and then at my own pace' version of a novel.
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Speaking of me you talked about my AI point but didn't talk about my objection to your characterization of my behavior, Arian.
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I'm satisfied with Seppel's response. The fact that it was more than just dismissing the case goes against Seppel's own rules for winning as mafia.
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What is there to say? I see things one way as an external observer, you characterize yourself another internally. It's casual.
This is bad. You don't think that the person who wrote the rules seriously wouldn't realize that the best way to avoid their scrutiny being used against himself would be to violate them?
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Okay so just so I am clear. You are okay with that 'progression' using the thought that 'Chris thinks no one is after him, so he gets confident' despite me making it a point to defend myself zealously from said people after me.
I mean sure, if that's how you want to see it I guess I can't stop you.
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Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
They're good rules. Ignoring a vote on you is probably the one that people mess up the reasoning for the most often -- yes, townies will often dismiss single votes and ignore them, but it's that you don't want the conversation to get too heated. You're just encouraging conversation by replying to it, and, at best, you've created a slapfight that pegs you and your aggressor as not scum together. And those long slapfights are hard and rare to make genuine when a scum goes aggro on another scum.
The only way to dodge something like that after it's been made is to [redacted to stop giving the scum hints].
I made a note to add a few rules thanks to being on a team with Wildfire and having Wildfire do things that I couldn't imagine he'd do. At one point I even had to coach him in plain sight because he was clearing townies left and right.
Hey Wildfire, how long have you been playing mafia?
/letssavethisforthepostgsme
Night was also my only game as scum so far, besides the bastardfest that was Industry.
(Also, I only cleared one townie, and it was in a botched attempt to WIFOM him as possible scum)
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Also, hansanator looks better after his big post, so he's not #3 any more. Right now I'm at:
Town
Megiddo
Wildfire393
DCIII
Leaning Town
Sir Chris
Arianrhod
Unsure
desCoures
hansanator
EtR
killjoy
Iso
Seppel
Rhand
kpaca
Sir Karn
rezombied
Niv
Leaning Scum
Prophylaxis
HookerPunch
Scum
AsianInvasion
LnGrrrR
In more or less this order, except for the italicized group being interchangable because I am truly unsure of their alignment. For HookerPunch, I dislike the level of disengagement - I know this is something he does, but it feels more so than usual. Prophylaxis is trending down based on others' statements of his activity level being alignment-indicative. Niv and rezombied are on the low end of unsure because I haven't really liked what I've seen from their low content. I can't read desCoures very well, but everything seems normal compared to what I've seen before.
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I do like this T/S a fair amount. I'd put Seppel and Proph a little higher. Proph's been V/LA, and his activity before then had me leaning town.
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- Was reading through while making this post; you didn't give me time to get the ******* cookie.
I don't think of Iso right now.
NO U!
@DCIII: Put your vote somewhere useful. Seppel isn't scum. I was correct in reading scum Seppel like one month ago or something and this game is nothing like that game. In that game, he posted in a similar manner, but everything just oozed that feeling of scumminess that was hard to explain but was certainly there. This game has none of that.
Because listing your scumbuddies as "unsure" is a very common mistake that I'm sure Cythare is aware of.